I know the bible is crap but then how do I explain THIS?
sent in by Curious and curiouser
Hi this is a GREAT website and I may post a couple more times cos I'm new to this (only started really de-converting about two months ago!) Hope that's ok?! :-)
Enjoying all the testimonies, they help a LOT! Now, let me cut to the chase here. I no longer believe in the Bible, biblegod, jesus etc. BUT.....Ritchie's testimony about his penticostal experiences prompted me to write this, had been thinking about doing so anyway as I want to hear your views.
Right.........When I was conceived my mother didn't want me and I don't hold it against her OK but she was REALLY upset about being pregnant and tried to kill herself several times.
(1) The first time she overdosed on sleeping pills but just chucked them back up and when she asked the Doctor for more he was suspicious and wouldn't give them to her.
She could have o.d.ed I could have been killed (inside the womb) too but I wasn't and she didn't.
(2) She tried to gas herself but while she is SURE she shut the windows - and yes, especially in THAT state of mind she COULD have been mistaken, I know! - she went to sleep, the next morning she woke up to find one window wide open so we again could have died and didn't.
(3) This is the biggest mystery perhaps. She put her head in the oven and turned on the gas. She HAS had migranes before but NEVER a neck ache and she had a sudden terrible pain in her neck and she felt a hand pull her head out even though there was noone in the room. ! (
4) She would have liked to have had an abortion (rather than attempting suicide!!) but she didn't know where to go to get one (this was the early 70s and she was too ashamed to tell anyone, even though when she did MUCH later on tell them about me, her best friend and family even her mother were very accepting but she thought they wouldn't be. So I was not aborted (obviously, or I would not be writing this now - duh!)
(5) Her best friend told me a few years ago that my birthmum at five months' pregnancy - when she tried all this stuff - looked like a woman who was nine months' pregnant (yes, I know she didn't tell her best friend at the time, she must have told her later!) and it was as though there was a protective coating around me so I was not brain damaged but the attempt at sleeping pill OD for e.g! After all THAT I was adopted out at the tender age of three weeks and ended up in a fundamentalist Christian home! Hmmm after hearing all THAT and my birth mother is NOT a Christian, she believes in God but that's IT, I thought maybe I was SUPPOSED to be born and SUPPOSED to be brought up in a Christian home.
(Although I guess logically speaking it would have been a LOT easier if God wanted THAT to just make it so my dad (i.e. adoptive dad I have now) COULD have kids and then we wouldn't have needed to go through 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5!)
I have since come to realise there is no WAY the bible can be true and therefore my parents' beliefs are WRONG. So that theory goes out the window but on the OTHER hand, WAS someone intervening in my pre-birth to keep me alive and WHY and WHO THE FUCK WAS IT?
I am NOT a Christian anymore I am NOT a troll and (you'll have to take my word here and I KNOW swearing on the bible won't mean NOTHIN to me or you guys!!) OK I swear on my dead and much loved Grandmother's grave I am NOT making this stuff up!!
So guys, any possible explanations? A few I have come up with, by the way, tell me what you think (just DON'T tell me I or my birth mum are full of shit! cos she's no liar either and NOT a drama queen who lies to get attention cos I know the type and she's NOT it! and being irreligious she HAS no agenda!)
Right, my possible explanations:
(A) There IS a God. OR Goddess or more than one of those who for some crazy reason decided to help out. I have also considered there may be a deity/deities that IS there but is NOT omnipotent, has LIMITED powers. I mean, I'd be pissed off if SOMEONE OR SOMETHING out there helped ME out but didn't stop the tsunami if it/he/she/they COULD have stopped it!
(B) There is an ancestral spirit that actually gave a damn about it's descendant. Again, not an omnipotent one, of course.
(C) I was extremely lucky to be alive and that's all there is to it. And my mother was just imagining the hand thing and confused about the window because of her state of mind which obviously wasn't in a good place!!! and the neck ache was from tension and the fact she's never had one before or since means nothing. (Possible, I've had one single migrane and so far never had one before or since)
This also brings me to the crazy point that however it happened perhaps I or she or both of us are here for a reason but I'm 31 and although I am basically a kind and caring person who helps people when I can I haven't exactly found a major life purpose that makes the world a better place yet! I've also thought re. the family thing apart from the fact it could have been a coincidence and probably was maybe the reason if there is one I was put into THAT family was because THEY needed ME. MAN does that make me sound an egotistical meglomanic or WHAT?
Well I'm NOT OK?! Let me explain: My brother told me he was a father at 20 three weeks before he told our folx so maybe it helped him a tad getting that out. My father had an affair and I didn't condone it and wasn't exactly thrilled with him but let him know I accepted him no matter what.
Yes, I was in my 20s but still living at home but STILL! And my brother has been a total shit especially the five years he was a drug abusing alcoholic and caused us all KINDS of problems - also adopted, by the way, from an alcoholic family, yes really! now he's a fundie in some ways it's not much better! But ANYWAY my mum often said what a wonderful support I was to her in those times.
In case you are thinking I am putting myself on a pedistal I think despite how bad the fundamentalism Christianity has been for me but that's another story this one is WAY too long as is, appologies! in some ways my family have been good for me too, e.g. my dad is quite successful (no millionaire of course! but he does alright) and that inspires ME to try my best for just one e.g. So, any thoughts on any of that?
E.g. WHY?????? and HOW???? and WHO???????
Became a Christian: 3 weeks? ! ;- P OK maybe nine years old actually
Ceased being a Christian: 31
Labels before: What churches or organizations or labels have applied to you?
Labels now: Am I allowed to say eclectic? New Thought plus New Age plus Gnostic plus Deist plus Humanist etc! plus nothing against doing the odd wicca incantation!
Why I joined: Thank the family for that! Not wanting to go to hell! (at nine!)
Why I left: Because I realised the origins of the bible were questionable as was it's logic and it's contents so how could it be true. Plus I've always (almost always) been open-minded at heart back to my true self at last!
Hi this is a GREAT website and I may post a couple more times cos I'm new to this (only started really de-converting about two months ago!) Hope that's ok?! :-)
Enjoying all the testimonies, they help a LOT! Now, let me cut to the chase here. I no longer believe in the Bible, biblegod, jesus etc. BUT.....Ritchie's testimony about his penticostal experiences prompted me to write this, had been thinking about doing so anyway as I want to hear your views.
Right.........When I was conceived my mother didn't want me and I don't hold it against her OK but she was REALLY upset about being pregnant and tried to kill herself several times.
(1) The first time she overdosed on sleeping pills but just chucked them back up and when she asked the Doctor for more he was suspicious and wouldn't give them to her.
She could have o.d.ed I could have been killed (inside the womb) too but I wasn't and she didn't.
(2) She tried to gas herself but while she is SURE she shut the windows - and yes, especially in THAT state of mind she COULD have been mistaken, I know! - she went to sleep, the next morning she woke up to find one window wide open so we again could have died and didn't.
(3) This is the biggest mystery perhaps. She put her head in the oven and turned on the gas. She HAS had migranes before but NEVER a neck ache and she had a sudden terrible pain in her neck and she felt a hand pull her head out even though there was noone in the room. ! (
4) She would have liked to have had an abortion (rather than attempting suicide!!) but she didn't know where to go to get one (this was the early 70s and she was too ashamed to tell anyone, even though when she did MUCH later on tell them about me, her best friend and family even her mother were very accepting but she thought they wouldn't be. So I was not aborted (obviously, or I would not be writing this now - duh!)
(5) Her best friend told me a few years ago that my birthmum at five months' pregnancy - when she tried all this stuff - looked like a woman who was nine months' pregnant (yes, I know she didn't tell her best friend at the time, she must have told her later!) and it was as though there was a protective coating around me so I was not brain damaged but the attempt at sleeping pill OD for e.g! After all THAT I was adopted out at the tender age of three weeks and ended up in a fundamentalist Christian home! Hmmm after hearing all THAT and my birth mother is NOT a Christian, she believes in God but that's IT, I thought maybe I was SUPPOSED to be born and SUPPOSED to be brought up in a Christian home.
(Although I guess logically speaking it would have been a LOT easier if God wanted THAT to just make it so my dad (i.e. adoptive dad I have now) COULD have kids and then we wouldn't have needed to go through 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5!)
I have since come to realise there is no WAY the bible can be true and therefore my parents' beliefs are WRONG. So that theory goes out the window but on the OTHER hand, WAS someone intervening in my pre-birth to keep me alive and WHY and WHO THE FUCK WAS IT?
I am NOT a Christian anymore I am NOT a troll and (you'll have to take my word here and I KNOW swearing on the bible won't mean NOTHIN to me or you guys!!) OK I swear on my dead and much loved Grandmother's grave I am NOT making this stuff up!!
So guys, any possible explanations? A few I have come up with, by the way, tell me what you think (just DON'T tell me I or my birth mum are full of shit! cos she's no liar either and NOT a drama queen who lies to get attention cos I know the type and she's NOT it! and being irreligious she HAS no agenda!)
Right, my possible explanations:
(A) There IS a God. OR Goddess or more than one of those who for some crazy reason decided to help out. I have also considered there may be a deity/deities that IS there but is NOT omnipotent, has LIMITED powers. I mean, I'd be pissed off if SOMEONE OR SOMETHING out there helped ME out but didn't stop the tsunami if it/he/she/they COULD have stopped it!
(B) There is an ancestral spirit that actually gave a damn about it's descendant. Again, not an omnipotent one, of course.
(C) I was extremely lucky to be alive and that's all there is to it. And my mother was just imagining the hand thing and confused about the window because of her state of mind which obviously wasn't in a good place!!! and the neck ache was from tension and the fact she's never had one before or since means nothing. (Possible, I've had one single migrane and so far never had one before or since)
This also brings me to the crazy point that however it happened perhaps I or she or both of us are here for a reason but I'm 31 and although I am basically a kind and caring person who helps people when I can I haven't exactly found a major life purpose that makes the world a better place yet! I've also thought re. the family thing apart from the fact it could have been a coincidence and probably was maybe the reason if there is one I was put into THAT family was because THEY needed ME. MAN does that make me sound an egotistical meglomanic or WHAT?
Well I'm NOT OK?! Let me explain: My brother told me he was a father at 20 three weeks before he told our folx so maybe it helped him a tad getting that out. My father had an affair and I didn't condone it and wasn't exactly thrilled with him but let him know I accepted him no matter what.
Yes, I was in my 20s but still living at home but STILL! And my brother has been a total shit especially the five years he was a drug abusing alcoholic and caused us all KINDS of problems - also adopted, by the way, from an alcoholic family, yes really! now he's a fundie in some ways it's not much better! But ANYWAY my mum often said what a wonderful support I was to her in those times.
In case you are thinking I am putting myself on a pedistal I think despite how bad the fundamentalism Christianity has been for me but that's another story this one is WAY too long as is, appologies! in some ways my family have been good for me too, e.g. my dad is quite successful (no millionaire of course! but he does alright) and that inspires ME to try my best for just one e.g. So, any thoughts on any of that?
E.g. WHY?????? and HOW???? and WHO???????
Became a Christian: 3 weeks? ! ;- P OK maybe nine years old actually
Ceased being a Christian: 31
Labels before: What churches or organizations or labels have applied to you?
Labels now: Am I allowed to say eclectic? New Thought plus New Age plus Gnostic plus Deist plus Humanist etc! plus nothing against doing the odd wicca incantation!
Why I joined: Thank the family for that! Not wanting to go to hell! (at nine!)
Why I left: Because I realised the origins of the bible were questionable as was it's logic and it's contents so how could it be true. Plus I've always (almost always) been open-minded at heart back to my true self at last!
Comments
Give him a try and it will NEVER be REGRETTED! nothing wrong with trying people. However he gives us free will, he doesnt force any indivdual to do what they dont want to.
WHAT a marvellous God we serve, and we are all precious to him.....!
Let’s see…
Numerous misspellings, punctuation incorrect, lack of capitalization.
Invites Pascal’s wager…again!
Throwaway observations like “we are all so precious to Him”, that we’ll burn in hell for ALL eternity if we simply doubt His existence.”
Yep, sounds like a Fundy troll!
Keep on praying and praying and praying and praying and praying...
And still, nothing will happen.
It's all in your mind. None of what you believe is real.
"...talking to him and if he is not real then what have u lost. but i will continue to pray for you no matter, and i will continue to bind the devil off you in the name of JESUS, who is the living god.i love you my friends forever and a pray a prayer of faith over you right now that when you read this message you will know that their is a true and living god. in the name of jesus i claim it to be done. god bless"
To anonymous from Dano!
Your praying didn't work. When I read your post, I see a simi illiterate airhead who:
# 1. Is not considerate enough to figure out how to use the "other" button and make up a screen name, so that those who wish to respond to you, can address someone other than just another anonymous.
# 2. Your poor sentence structure and lack of any desire to use even the most fundamental punctuation, puts you in the class, or company, of many who call themselves Christians, and stop by this site to tell us about their relationship with Jesus.
# 3. The language of your post is so trailer trash, evangelical, it is scary.
# 4. The ability for critical thought, as demonstrated by your post, is zero.
I suggest that you get down on your knees and start praying for a release from your cult, and while you're at it, ask the big guy why he doesn't do something about the young Muslim children, who are brainwashed by their religion to the extent that they will strap a bomb on and blow themselves up, trying to kill those who believe slightly differently than them.
Dan (Ex Christian, posting on an ex Christian web site)
By your thoughtful preyers, my grandmother whom has been deceast now for over 18 years knocked on my front door this evening and gave me the biggest hug you've ever sean. She said that someone had mentioned the name of Jesus and she immediately arose from the grave. Now I can't prove none of this, all I got is her death certificate, but as you klnow there will be people who simply insist and not believe. Jesus pre-dicked it.
Hit wont no more than 4 1/2 minutes when the phone ((((rang))) and I said, "hello, who is this?" It was George Bish and he said that there was, get this!!! World Peace, yes boy horay!!! GW said that Ossama Ben Laden has receieved, yes recieved the Lord Jesus into his hart and has been forgiven for all his sins and is publickly anouncing that all Muslambs renounce Isalm and bring about world peace, today, r ight now, pronto!! Ha ha how about that?
And GW said that world peace was brought about becuase of sum lonely humble and meek christian praying somehwere in the US of A., who's sandel's he was not worthy to unlatch! Huh Huh, you Atheists top that, I betcha kant?
I'm no educated feller, but why kant u all sea what the love of Jesis can do?
Jus keep preying, will ya do thaty?
1. When people think of Noah's arc, they think,"How could millions of animals fit!" You only need the very first type of dog, not every type of dog (Golden Retrievers, Great Danes, ect...) The first dog is like a wolf. HUGE DINOSAURS? The egg is as big as a football. The total amount of space needed for them is only 1/3 of the arc! The other third was for Noah, his family, and food. The last third was for anyone else that wanted to come, no one came. He also had 120 years to prepare for this.
2. The EARTH is SIX THOUSAND YEARS OLD!!! I KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE! Evolutionists say that every layer of the earth is of millions of year, but they found something interesting. They found a tree and a WHALE that passed through MULTIPLE LAYERS! SO...that means a whale was just laying there for millions of years and nothing even decided to take a bite, that sounds more impossible.
3. CARBON DATING SAYS THAT THE EARTH IS BILLIONS OF YEARS OLD! Carbon dating is used to measure how much carbon has deteriorated from the rock and they find the date...millions of years. Do you know how rocks are formed? It's when lava cools and hardens, then it starts deteriorating. Some evolutionists decided to date an eleven year old rock, fresh from the volcano, the results came back as millions of years!
If anyone has question, email me at milescoate@bellsouth.net
THERE ARE MANY MORE THINGS THAN THE ONES I MENTIONED.
You really need to stop reading those lame apologetic xtian books and go to your library and take out some REAL science books to read instead.
You are being subjected to a ton of fundie mis-information and don't realize it.
We've already heard these 'excuses' you cite here and they have been disputed time and time again.
Now run along and get educated please.
ATF
Many children are also partial to the idea that a monster has taken up residence beneath their beds. Are the opinions of children really the best tool we have in determining what may or may not comport with reality?
Miles continues his bald armchair psychologal assertions with People know this [that the world was "created"] and will force themselves down other paths...
Let me tell you about what people "know" and "paths" people "force themselves down". The very sight of galaxies millions of light years away ought to be a pretty fair indication of the minimum age of the universe. It takes something as mind-numbing as religion to convince people to suspend their common sense.
Sometimes I wonder if I wrote a book and said I was divined by God that if in a few thousand years I could have people saying that I am the truth and light.
The bible is crap. I'm not saying that God is crap, or even that Jesus is crap, they both very easily could be totally legitimate. Maybe even parts of the bible were divined by God.. but bottom line, it was written by men. Not God, .. men. Men with their own causes and ends they were trying to achieve.
"2. The EARTH is SIX THOUSAND YEARS OLD!!! I KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE! Evolutionists say that every layer of the earth is of millions of year, but they found something interesting. They found a tree and a WHALE that passed through MULTIPLE LAYERS! SO...that means a whale was just laying there for millions of years and nothing even decided to take a bite, that sounds more impossible.
3. CARBON DATING SAYS THAT THE EARTH IS BILLIONS OF YEARS OLD! Carbon dating is used to measure how much carbon has deteriorated from the rock and they find the date...millions of years. Do you know how rocks are formed? It's when lava cools and hardens, then it starts deteriorating. Some evolutionists decided to date an eleven year old rock, fresh from the volcano, the results came back as millions of years!"
Where did you get your information? Good little children's book of while the bible is true!? That information is just plain wrong. There is no other way to say it. That actually is not how all rocks are formed.... did you skip earth science in middle school? There is really nothing to say to those comments other than: you need to take yourself to a book store immediately- head to the science section - and pick up absolutely any book.
You said, "give him a try and it will never be regretted!".
Let me tell you. I regret it. I was crippled at nineteen years old. I cant tell you how many times I have cried out to god for help, for healing of the physical and emotional pain. I was a christian, but was he there-NO! There was no comfort, there was nothing from this so called loving god. My life has been extremly hard and poor because of this wreck. Was god there to help me help myself-again NO!
Why do you think we are exchristians? We woke up and learned that the only way to be a christian is to be able to self delude yourself.
Of course I am sure you will have the same old answers that maybe I was not a real christian, or god has a plan. But after twenty five years of crying out to god he has never been there, and never had a plan!
I am better of without the phoney son of a bitch.
the bible is total crap. if we come from adam and eve who are the women kane and able banged to beget us. right. like i said, it is total manmade crap.
Unfortunately life isn't fair. The things that happen in it don't seem fair. It certainly hasn't been fair on me... or has it?
Blame God if you wish. The more you blame Him, the more you acknowledge Him. We should all be blaming ourselves as we lie, cheat, steal and then turn around and say "why are all these bad things happening to me?" nobody's an exception...
God is very clear about his promises… We have lost our faith in these days because we are too selfish. Maybe instead of praying about ourselves, we should be praying for others who are in much worse situations then us.
Why doesn’t God answer my prayers? Well let’s read the bible about what God says about answering them:
1 John 5:14, God promises: "Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us." – meaning whatever we ask must be in God’s will. Are we in tune with his will? Weather or not you are, he is God and you, nor I, can change the Creator’s will. No matter how much hate and bitterness you choose to have. You are only damning yourself.
James 5:16 says: "The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."
1 John 3:22 says: "Whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight." – guess this means that we have to try as hard as we can to follow his word. It’s a relationship with God that we must have. Expecting God to grant us our three wishes and jump out of a gene bottle to fix our lives is not having a relationship with him.
Proverbs 28:9 says: "One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination." – Disobeying God clearly causes separation from him.
It’s a good indication that our sin, and inability to submit to his will, is the reason for our distress. We suffer the sins of the past and affect eachother becasue of it.
We bring it on ourselves. You should be slandering the Devil... he is the originator of Sin and the true enemy. Why don’t you do that? I bet you won’t… That is the true purpose of the Devil. Go ahead; continue to play in the devil’s hands folks...
I really think if you have a passion against God because of life’s distress… Read the book of Job in the bible. It will really show someone who went through real heart ache but perused God anyways because he knew this world is a fleeting moment compared to an eternity.
Lastly I noticed people writing about the validity of the bible… about how it was written by men. Tell me, what would a book “written by God” look like?
The bible was written by God. The pages and ink by a hand of man who was filled by the spirit of God and directed by him. The words contained in it were always. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
We all need to get on our knees my friends because the garbage, pain and anguish of this world are not worth eternal separation from Christ. The purpose of this life and this world is much bigger then you and I and our grievances.
Wow, that's all you need to believe something?
How about this?: I know am God. God knows who He is. Therefore, I am God.
How do you know I'm God? Because I wrote down that I'm God, and everything God says is true. Therefore, it's true that I'm God.
"Well if you challenge God and Christianity, then you should know at least a tiny bit about the bible..."
Most of us have read it. Some of us hae read it multiple times. In fact, reading the Bible deconverted more than a few of us.
"Maybe instead of praying about ourselves, we should be praying for others who are in much worse situations then us..."
Hey, good idea.
(gets on phone to Valhalla)
(Thor answers)
"Hei, little brother! How's it going? How's Sif and the kids? (listens, nodding) Cool. Is Dad in? I need to ask him a question."
(Thor can faintly be heard yelling "Pabbi! Astreja á sÃmi.")
(Oðinn gets on the phone)
"Hi, Dad. Got another idiot Bible- botherer here on Ex-C. What do the runes say?"
(Allfoður shakes out contents of a rune bag onto the table by the phone in Valhalla, and picks two of them. He starts laughing in a deep, booming voice.)
(Astreja listens to Oðinn's interpretation, then also starts laughing)
Tough luck, Dyluck: Dad drew an inverted Ehwaz and a Kenaz. Accordingly, we concur that you're a horse's ass and a flaming idiot.
Well if you think the bible is fake, then I suppose all the prophesies that are being fulfilled currently are just lies.
You want proof that the bible is real... Here is a good website to start your research with, since the internet is never short of the current news:
http://www.tribulation2008.com/index.php?p=1_5_prophecies-2008
The signs of the times are blatantly obvious including our current massive country unions happening right now. Wars in the Middle East, RFID implant chips, One world order... All of these + more to name here explained right in the bible, all of these happening right now.
Our days are numbered, don’t deny Christ. I know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the way. People deny him so... what happens in the end?
What happens if he is real and you denied your maker?
Your eschatology was invented just prior to the Civil War and popularized by the Schofield Study Bible.
It's heretical teaching. I suggest you remain as ignorant as possible, or your 100% certainty may lapse.
is this the "betterment" by becoming an "exchristian".
Well it's unfortunate that you know the truth yet still deny Him.
yes the word "rapture" is a term coined as of late; however the premise behind it as old as the bible. the "rapture" is the word for the action as described below:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Well, 2 for 3 ain't bad.... "fake", and "lies".
crapture
It not my "sin", dip-wad. I wasn't given the choice whether to eat the "forbidden fruit", or not. Do you know what that means?....it means if your legendary philosophy is true, then I'm being held responsible for a trespass, or "crime", that I had no free will in. The very thought of that makes a complete mockery of "free will", as well as "justice". Moreover, even if I was inherently a "sinner", then "sin" is therefore something I cannot avoid, even if I wanted to. Thus, why do I need to be "forgiven" for something I cannot even control? 'Get it? Again, "free will"---out the window.
LyDuck, if your perverted, ancient philosophy is true, we are nothing but programmed evil puppets carrying out an evil plan, by an evil(and quite stupid) Puppeteer. Good luck with that.
Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
The author of Matthew presents Jesus' message to the apostles; the rapture will conclude and the New Kingdom will be brought into existence "prior" to the death of Jesus' apostles.
The apostles, whether they were "real" historical figures "or not", have been dead for almost 2K years - rapture concluded, case closed.
Dyluck, the prophesies, if they were real, have concluded; thus, the need for a Christian religion, is no longer necessary... all that was said to have happened has passed per the Christian bible.
Want to impress someone... tell us whether or not you believe we are currently living in Hell or Heaven on earth and how you came to that conclusion. The rapture (concluded before the last apostle died), where there was a battle for souls for seven years... Upon conclusion, Jesus was to conquer evil, and establish a thousand years of peace on earth.
So, for the past thousand years... are we in Heaven or Hell? Furthermore, whether you are intellectually capable of answering that question... what purpose does Christianity serve, if the driving premise of salvation is no longer "relevant" in this modern era?
Damn straight I can see it. I despise Christianity and what it has done to the world.
Your religion teaches that humans are evil from birth, taking away their self-esteem and trading it for a mythical afterlife home in the clouds... A home that they must share with an egotistical, pestilential, filicidal maniac.
"is this the 'betterment' by becoming an 'exchristian'"
Hey, you're the one who came here to preach something that we've already rejected. Were you actually so naïve as to think you would be welcome here?
But yes, I am proud to be a member of the Ex-C Unwelcome Wagon. Challenging superstitious nonsense has not only made Me more assertive but done wonders for My writing skills as well. It's a win-win situation.
"Well it's unfortunate that you know the truth yet still deny Him."
Unsupported assertion: No proof outside the Bible that Jesus even existed as a man, let alone as a man-god.
It may come as a bit of a shock to you, but people do *not* come back from the dead after three days in the tomb. Nor can they walk on water. And, last time I checked, snakes didn't talk.
[Inserts standard Springy Goddess request for express delivery to Astrejurhof of one (1) talking snake]
Believe whatever story you want, but leave -us- out of it. We're not buying.
Boomslang – tell me what is perverted by the values laid out in the bible?
Secondly, you are right, it is not your personal fault you and I and everyone else is born a sinner. Adam and Eve sinned and we suffer consequences for it. Yes you are born a sinner just like me, what you failed to mention was that we have a choice to sin or not… Just like Adam and Eve had a choice…. Just like the devil had a choice… but because we rather do what “feels good for the moment”, we sin. Now, the devil doesn’t have any second chance… but we do! Go figure? And you will stand before God and say... Yip I was told that I had a chance and I shrugged it of and slandered people who genuinely cares enough to spend time to write. (Your replies also appreciated of course :))
By the way… “2 of 3 prophesies” ? which one do you think isn’t’ coming to pass my friend? Check your resources again. I bet you think one world order doesn’t exist… You need to do more research on what puppeteer that drives the US government. By approximately 2010 the 10th union will be complete… How about this... one world currencies, one world religion. Interesting that we have the Euro, ever so swiftly taking over Europe. What else, oh yeah the proposed American Union… Canada, USA and Mexio. Want me to name the other ones? How about the European Union, Asian Union, African Union, the proposed Mediterranean Union. Here is a simple verse about this:
Daniel 7:24 “And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.”
Well I believe the rapture has yet to come. If you believe it happened before then you are certainly entitled to that.
Dave8 you are good :), I like your arguments.
Just to rebut your statement, Matthew 16:28 was before the death of Christ. He was making a prophesy that some of his disciples would see him in his glory before he died.
Read these verses: Matthew 17:1-5 “After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John, the brother of James, and lead them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his close became as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters-one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “this is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Mark 9:1 uses the word “power” instead of “kingdom” (backing up the statement above).
The particular “post millennia” view you are referring to has origins that have no biblical timeline “evidence”.
The lord has not come yet but he is coming, and we do need him.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 written after Christ and clearly states: Brothers, you know that the day of the Lord will come (future tense) like a thief in the night.
While people are saying, “peace and safety” destruction will come on them suddenly (talking about tribulation as per Revelation and Daniel etc.).
But you. Brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.” (meaning the signs of the end should come as no surprise).
Ok well if we were in Heaven, then according to the bible, there would be no pain. Well if I’m not mistaken, we are in no heaven…
If we were in Hell, then we would be in fiery torment. The worst part of Hell would be the complete and utter absence of God. Lucky for us, we aren’t burning…
Therefore in my “intelligence”, I conclude that we are neither in heaven nor hell.
That said, we all have a second chance still!
The lack of relevance you speak of is because the god of this age is “self”. You are right, because of self, there is no need for Go. The devil’s biggest deception yet. What do you think wars are really about? Selfishness no matter their claim to politics or religion. The bible certainly does not teach one to be selfish.
Well unfortunately by our works alone we cannot make it to the kingdom of heaven. God wants us to be dependent on his love and his grace. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles with Him… So, question for you, what happens after you die? Are you going to gamble that eternity doesn't exist? That is a pretty scary wager my friend.
astreja –
I appreciate the non-slamming this time.
- There are many historical proofs of the bible not including current events.
- Prove to me He didn’t exist.
I am grieved at whatever circumstance that lead you away from Him… Truly.
Whoever helped caused you to disbelieve by whatever action will answer for it.
I’m not here to change your mind; you make your own choices of course. If it caused you to think or felt threatened and found it necessary to tell me to “leave you out of it”, then maybe I did my job! If you don’t want to buy it, don’t read it :)
You may choose to not believe in God but the devil certainly does. (James 2:18 – 19 “But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds". Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that- and shudder.”
Jesus knocks on the door, buy if you want, choose to ignore. It's technically only an eternal decision. No big deal right?
Cheers!
Tell me, what would a book “written by God” look like?
Let's see, it should be free from contradictions, historical and scientific errors, and failed prophecies. It should be so unambiguous that no one could reinterpret it a different way. It should be filled with great moral guidelines, like condemning slavery instead of condoning it. It shouldn't contain obviously fictional, childish stories. It should be written on some special "God" material that man could not destroy or alter, and it should be written in every language, even before those languages evolve. It should contain knowledge way ahead of its time to prove its power, perhaps by figuring pi to the 100,000th place (as opposed to just calling it "3"), or declaring that stars are really huge objects hundreds of thousand times larger than the earth, rather than little objects that can fall to the earth during really powerful earthquakes.
A book written by God would have to be absolutely amazing in every aspect. The Bible certainly isn't.
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
Oh, you're quite welcome.
"There are many historical proofs of the bible not including current events."
Well, the Bible was written in a rather small and well-travelled geographical area, and the writers of the various books occasionally documented local events accurately.
As the dates of writing are not known with 100% accuracy, it is uncertain how many so-called "prophesies" were written before the events they supposedly foretold. In all such events that were within the capability of individuals or small groups, there is a danger that many prophesy fulfilments were actually deliberately staged to make those prophesies "come true". In general, I don't consider any event within the capability of humanity to be prophesy-worthy.
"Prove to me He didn’t exist."
That's called "shifting the burden of proof." Yours is the affirmative claim, so that's the one that needs to be defended. It is possible that someone named Jesus (or Yeheshua, as the case may be) did exist, but the story is so cluttered up with improbable mythology that we may never be able to ascertain what actually happened back then.
"I am grieved at whatever circumstance that lead you away from Him..."
Here is My story. My journey away from Christianity has been in progress for about 45 years now.
However, just stay tightly entrenched in your delusional Dispensational box and you'll have no questions, no curiosities and dogmatism will rule your life. Never, never challenge the status quo in your church -- you'll regret it.
I have "faith" that the lurkers out there are intelligent enough to discern and extract the arguments of an individual, in spite of any sarcasm, or any ad hominem assaults that may ensue, especially where religious debate is concerned. If a particular lurker cannot discern such?... then frankly, I don't care what they think. Perhaps they shouldn't be blogging.
DyLuck...Boomslang – tell me what is perverted by the values laid out in the bible?
Lol. Okay, where shall I begin? As I already stated, being held accountable for a crime that I had no free will in is a mockery of "free will". Telling someone that they need to be "forgiven" for something they have no control over is a mockery of "forgiveness". Telling someone that you love them, but if they don't reciprocate that love, that you promise to incinerate them, is a mockery of "love". Need I go on?
DyLuck...Secondly, you are right..
I know.
DyLuck...it is not your personal fault you and I and everyone else is born a sinner. Adam and Eve sinned and we suffer consequences for it. Yes you are born a sinner just like me, what you failed to mention was that we have a choice to sin or not…
I'm sorry, I must've missed it....did you explain the justification in holding others responsible for things they had no free will in? No, you didn't. It appears to me that you just attempted to circumvent the issue by glazing it over with a thick gob of special pleading.
In any event, you still have a blatant contradiction: If we are inherently all "sinners", then we cannot avoid "sin", because if we could avoid "sin", entirely, then we wouldn't be "sinners". Thus, there is no such "choice".
DyLuck...Just like Adam and Eve had a choice….
Tell me, how did these two alleged Caucasian proto-types know the difference between "right" and "wrong"??? They had no prior knowledge of that concept, or any other, for that matter. They had no frame of reference.
DyLuck...Just like the devil had a choice…but because we rather do what “feels good for the moment”, we sin. Now, the devil doesn’t have any second chance… but we do! Go figure?
Go figure that you have not one scrap of empirical evidence for anything you just said.
DyLuck...And you will stand before God and say... Yip I was told that I had a chance and I shrugged it of and slandered people who genuinely cares enough to spend time to write. (Your replies also appreciated of course :))
And you will lie before the Mortician and not say.... yip, I was told that I was wasting the only life I know for certain that I'll ever have, but I shrugged it off for believing lies :)
DyLuck...By the way… “2 of 3 prophesies” ? which one do you think isn’t’ coming to pass my friend? Check your resources again. I bet you think one world order doesn’t exist… You need to do more research on what puppeteer that drives the US government.
Listen closely: It's all "God's Will", according to the biblically-supported assertion that "God" is "Omniscient". You need to do more research on the mutual incompatability of "omniscience" and "free will".
DyLuck...By approximately 2010 the 10th union will be complete…
Huh? "approximately"? Are you now telling us that "God" deals in "approximations"????
DyLuck...How about this... one world currencies, one world religion.
How about this...how about all the FAILED "Prophecies"????
DyLuck...oh yeah the proposed American Union… Canada, USA and Mexio. Want me to name the other ones? How about the European Union, Asian Union, African Union, the proposed Mediterranean Union. Here is a simple verse about this:
Daniel 7:24 “And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.”[bold added]
Hmmm...don't you find it odd that if "God" presumably knows the future set of events, that he evidently doesn't know the future names of the countries, and instead, refers to "Kings" and "horns", etc?? I do find it odd. But then again, I don't have faith.
Dyluck, the apostolic era is a "time frame" spanning "years" in which "The Apostles" lived.
Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
The author of Matthew directs the passage to "The Apostles".
The only argument you could make at this point, is that there is at least a "few" Original Apostles running around today - ~2K years old. Of course, that doesn't make much sense to me, it would make them seem "immortal" as gods - which doesn't make much sense for a monotheistic religion.
Dyluck: "The lord has not come yet but he is coming, and we do need him."
Actually, to be a Christian requires a single tenet of belief; the belief that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) prophesied in the Old Testament/Covenant. That's all it takes to "be" considered one of "Christendom".
If you do not accept that belief tenet, then Judaism and the Old Covenant prophesies (Jewish Tanakh, a.k.a. Old Testament) are still actively waiting to become fulfilled - thus, no Jew-Zeus (Jesus) Christ/"Christendom".
So, let's assume you are not Jewish for the sake of argument... that you actually accept that a Christ/Messiah "did" come to earth to fulfill the Jewish Tanakh's/Hebrew Old Testament's prophesies... so that "Christendom" could logically exist beyond Judaism.
If so, and you still suggest the "Lord" has not yet come... then, you must be suggesting "another" Lord exists per the bible.
Since you brought up Thes... I'll continue on the theme.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Do you understand what "Lord Jesus Christ" means? I'm going with... Jesus Christ is Lord per the bible.
If you care to disagree, do everyone a favor and post a biblical passage to make a "clear" distinction between the Lord Jesus of the bible, and... some "other" Lord you may be referring to.
Until that time... the "Lord" per the bible, has come; establishing Christendom and bringing forth a "New Covenant".
Do you see a "need" for a "time-line" or "shelf-life" for this argument?
No... if a Christ did not come to earth, then time is irrelevant - Christendom never had a beginning. Thus, all those who "believe" in Jesus as Christ, aren't True Christians, because there is no "True Christendom" to begin with.
Let's now, reflect back on the "apostolic era", as a time-frame... that means "context" by event, not a specific "time-stamp"... hopefully, you can understand the distinction.
We now proceed with Jesus as the Lord who has "come" to earth, to bring forth the New Covenant/New Testament.
Now... understand, the "New Covenant/New Testament" presents Jesus as Christ, "and"... "and"... New Prophesies, especially those stated in The Book of Revelation.
The Old Testament referred to the fulfillment of "prophesy" to lead to a promised New Kingdom for Jews "only".
The New Testament referred to the fulfillment of "prophesy" to lead to a promised New Kingdom for "Christians" only.
Christians claim that Jesus was the Jews' Christ per the Jewish Tanakh/Hebrew Old Testament; but, instead of "fulfilling" or "triggering" a completion of the prophesies, Jesus had come to "break his promise". Thus, Jesus as Lord, breaks his promise and then erects a new promise for Christians alone.
This "new promise" to Christians was a "New Kingdom" to be established when the "second coming" of Jesus as Lord was to occur.
Let's recap... no Jesus as Christ, no Christendom... no Christendom, no New Kingdom per the Book of Revelation for Christians.
Now, let's look at these "new promises" made, per the bible.
Let's also observe, no time-line, per se... but, the promise of "events" to occur during the lives of Jesus' listeners - per the bible.
Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Luke 9:27 - "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."
Matthew 23:36 - "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
Matthew 24:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Matthew 26:64 - "Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
Mark 9:1 - "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."
Mark 13:30 - "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."
Mark 14:62 - "And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
Luke 21:32 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
John 21:22 - "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"
Dyluck: "He was making a prophesy that some of his disciples would see him in his glory before he died."
Dyluck, have you actually read the bible? Or, are you pasting comments from someone who isn't capable of reading the bible?
Want more passages? How about these that specifically state that Jesus' New Kingdom would be established during the time of the biblical authors!?
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 - "Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ... that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Corinthians 7:29
1 Thessalonians 4:17
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Hebrews 1:2
Hebrews 9:26
1 Peter 1:20
1 Peter 4:7
1 John 2:18
Philippians 1:10 - "That ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ."
Now, obviously "the day of Christ" can not "speak to the first coming", since that would mean "Christendom" doesn't exist, and neither would Christians.
So, the "second coming", *coughs* is being referred to as "the day of Christ", when he would return to establish his New Kingdom on earth. Return in "Glory" if you demand, but... return "again" for a "second" time, nonetheless.
Now... if in fact the biblical passages are "True", then... Jesus' Second Coming has already "occurred"; during the era in which The Founding Apostles lived and before the authors of the New Testament had died.
No need for a specific timeline; the "context" is all that is necessary to establish that the "coming" was to happen while The Founding Apostles and New Testament authors "lived".
All I have to suggest... is that The Founding Apostles are suggested to be "dead" according to the "bible", which was canonized ~325CE. There were "no" eye-witness accounts or authors present for the validation of the New Testament letters, epistels, etc.
Since, The Founding Apostles were obviously "dead" during the first few hundred years (if you are extremely conservative and believe that the apostles lived for "hundreds" of years after Jesus), then... it is obviously clear that these "New Promises" per the "bible" had to come to conclusion - or... the bible is a fabrication and can not be trusted as a source of "Divinical" truth.
Now... I don’t see a great distinction between the Amillennialist, Premillennialist or Postmillennialist.
The bottom line, per the "context" of the bible... is that "upon the death of The Founding Apostles", some 'Apostles' would experience the "Second Coming" of the "Lord" Jesus.
Let's be more "clear"...
Luke 21:32 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
Dyluck... explain what "ALL" will be "fulfilled" means to you.
Pick the most "pleasing" belief you can muster to represent what will "happen" upon the "Second Coming" of the Lord Jesus... do you have it? Okay, remember that thought... now... Apostles=Dead, thus, your "pleasing belief" happened - - - when The Apostles Died.
If "all has been fulfilled", then... I'll say it again... Christendom is no longer "relevant"; we are experiencing and living according to post-biblical prophesies... and Christendom has "zero" to proffer on "that particular spiritual matter".
The bible, especially when it is accepted as "The Divine & Inerrant Word of God", has concluded, and "no further action" is required on the part of "any" person.
If "you" disagree with the "bible"... then... Dyluck... it is "your" responsibility to "disprove" the parts of the bible you "believe" to be non-canonical and "why".
While you attempt this feat, you of course undermine the credibility and character of those pious clergy members who "bound" the bible... As I see it, you have a few options;
1-The bible is no longer relevant; all has occurred per the Inerrant Words of God as portrayed in the bible. There is "nothing" to do; "all" has come to pass - done.
2-The bible is not Divine, because it has been tainted by humanity. Thus, the biblical support to establish Christendom and Jesus as a Jewish Christ/Messiah is no longer tenable. While a “logical” Christendom fails, and there is no “logical Christian”… there still exists the opportunity for the “illogical Christian” – who refers to the bible to justify belief in a person named Jesus, while claiming that very source to be tainted.
Well... once again... "case closed on Christendom" - as Forrest Gump said... "and that's all I got to say about that."
Thank you for taking the time to write to me and come up with good arguments.
You have a plethora of versus which took some time and I appreciate that.
The verses you mention are not a prophesy of the end of time, or the second coming of Christ. I may have been not completely correct that the interpretation of the word “kingdom” either by the way. I have found some good resources from people much more versed in the Word then I. After more extensive research, I found a great site that explain better the fundamentals of these verses:
http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=132
The creation of the “church”
Interpretations for the Greek word “genea” translates as English “generation” (40 years) seems to be misinterpreted to support the word “race” which would support the theory that the verse would be about the coming of Christ / end-times. “genea” is a literal translation of generation. This backs up the fact that yes, that partucular “generation” will see the formation of the “kingdom” (Church). Which indeed they did see!
A king has no kingdom without his people. The bible commonly refers to the church as His Bride or Kingdom.
I know just because you read the bible does not mean you can always discern its contents without spiritual interceding. It seams that someone can read a book (not only the bible) and receive a completely different outlook on its contents. You could have read the books Lord of the Rings before the movies came out and had a completely different vision of what everything looked like then the creators of the movie. Those akin to Tolkien, and those he may have entrusted his more personal views, may have seen the book from more of the original intention of the author. That said. Read this:
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Paul addressed the church of the Corinth regarding spiritual discernment.
“12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Boomslang, are you even an exchristian? You people are so passionate about being a non Christian that it’s almost a religion in itself. Why don’t you call yourselves Anti-Christs? Devoting websites to desolation and slathering of Christ to a passion.
Guys and gals, take my words, don’t take them. I’m no longer going bother any more. :-) If it is to your relief, I feel sorry for you.
Clearly you all want to gobble up the word of God and spit it out. I just hope that you guys wake up before it’s too late. You fight God when you should fear Him, even though he loves you more then you could possibly imagine. Imagine standing before the creator, the one who simply spoke this complex reality into existence.
P.S. whatever you based your “exchristian” decision on (poor example of others or blaming God for “non-answering of prayers”) is not worth eternity. Biblically a Christian is known by his actions. If he doesn’t act like a Christian, and he is wishy/washy then he isn’t a Christian and I’m sorry to say you all clearly didn’t have any good examples… God wasn’t messing around when he said narrow is the path and few will find it. This includes people who think they are Christian. These are the people you look at as being your typical worldly stereotyped hypocritical wishy/washy “Christian”. You are blind to the ones that are truly Christan. Christian is “Christ one” to-be-like Christ. Which means to follow his teachings, value and morals as much as possible. But, again, you all know the story right. He died so that we may live.
Good luck ! brotherly love.
“LyDuck” out!
Wow, someone actually asking me if I'm an exchristian? I'm shocked, as I'm totally used to Christians answering that question for me.
Let's put it this way---I spent approximately 2/3rds of my life believing that Christianity was truth. I believed that when I "prayed", that "Jesus" actually heard me, and answered me....well, sometimes. I now realize that I was talking to my ceiling fan, and that the "answers" to my divine begging rituals were simply me interpreting the events in my life as such. Good things = "yes"; bad things = "no". Of course, "no" answers meant I was a "sinner" that week. "God" removed from the equation, I now realize that good and bad things happen to people at the same statistical rate. It was a sad case of wishful thinking and self-delusion. You're doing it right now, BTW.
DyLuck...You people are so passionate about being a non Christian that it’s almost a religion in itself.
Yes, "we people" who escape mind-cults usually become passionate about our deconversion. It's funny like that.
A "religion"? Nah, I worship no-thing, and I adhere to no doctrines. More importantly, you are free to reject every word I say, and be on your merry way. I did not come find you; you came here, and evidently, you are/were intent on ministering to us, despite the site's disclaimer.
LyDuck...Why don’t you call yourselves Anti-Christs?
Because that would imply that "Christ" exists and that I'm simply against "Him". I don't believe in "Christ" anymore. I changed my mind. I believed in Santa; I changed my mind.
LyDuck...Devoting websites to desolation and slathering of Christ to a passion.
First and foremost, dedicated to be a place for people duped by chrisianity to come and vent, and to share their stories. If the world's biggest lie gets "desolated" in the process?....then fantastic; all the better ; )
LyDuck...Guys and gals, take my words, don’t take them. I’m no longer going bother any more.
Promise?
LyDuck...If it is to your relief, I feel sorry for you.
My "relief"? How would such a condescending, arrogant statement "relieve" me? I don't need your self-righteous pitty, kid.
LyDuck...Clearly you all want to gobble up the word of God and spit it out.
No; wrong. I "want" to do no such thing. If I care to reference the bible, I want to read it at its face-value. In fact, it was doing just that that contributed to my deconversion.
LyDuck...I just hope that you guys wake up before it’s too late.
Take your thinly-veiled threats and stick them up your sphincter. *Your religiously-based scare tactics no longer phase me. Nor does your imaginary "Gawd". As long as we're hoping, I hope you find reason before the one and only life you'll ever have, lapses.
LyDuck...You fight God when you should fear Him..
See here*, above.
LyDuck.....even though he loves you more then you could possibly imagine.
::yawn::
Yes, yes..."Jesus" loves me, but he's fully ready to toss me in a lake of fire for not accepting his existence on "faith", even though he knew, before he supposedly brought me into existence, that I wouldn't accept such things. Both "smart" AND "loving" in one package. How thrifty.