From Bible-thumper to a Deist

sent in by Jeff

Well, I've been reading through this site for some time now and I figured I might as well put up my anti-testimony — if not for anything else but my own sort of closure to Christianity.

I was born and raised in a "uber-church" one of those gigantic churches that doesn't claim any denomination and people have to meet in small groups to even get any sort of community going.

Anyway, I was a Bible-thumper from the get go. I remember being in 5th grade, bringing my bible and trying to convert people; I even had my own little hellfire speeches. This pretty much went on throughout my entire school years — I was always known as the Jesus freak or that crazy Jesus guy.

This all changed though, and ironically enough, it happened when i joined the army. Once I went through basic training I was almost forced to meet with people of other views and to get along with them. I couldnt just start preaching to somebody, telling them their going to hell, because these were the people watching my back, and I respected them.

Well, after I got out of the army I was already everything my former Christian self hated: I was an alcoholic, I was a womanizer, cursed like a sailor, the whole bit. Well I figured it was time to get back to my roots and try to be the Christian man I used to be, but something unexpected happened.

When I came back to the church I used to go to, just about everyone shunned me. I guess somehow my old drinking and casual sex stories had gotten back to them, andhey didnt like it one bit. I was all but told to leave by the people there.

This was when the doubts seriously began. I tried several churches in hopes that maybe it was just my old church that was like this, but for the most part I had to face it: for some reason these people that I used to call friends had heard that I was living in sin and now wanted nothing to do with me.

So I started to research my own faith, thanks in most to this site. But I was as impartial as I could be, reading this site and then going to Christian sites to see what they had to say. When it all came down to it I have come to believe that Christianity is nothing more than a country club, as long as you believe what they believe and show up to the meetings, everyone loves you. But, the second you start to waiver, you're gone and hated.

This was my starting reason to leave the faith — everything else just sort of fell in place after that. Since then Ive become a Deist, but the thing is I'm not complety stuck on it; I'm still studying other things, as I am sort of new at this. For 22yrs I did nothing but study the Bible, so now it's strange to be learning about other faiths deemed Satanic by the Christian culture (hehe).

Well, thats my speil. I hope you enjoyed it. It's not the most awesome anti-testimony ever, but hope it helps somebody in some way.

147 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hello! Another Deist! Not stuck on it either, just like me!
There's a lot of it about!
I felt the same on discovering that there other ways of looking at religion, othere philosophies, those called Satanic by Christians. If it's true and all us Free Thinkers, Deists, Atheists, Agnostics, those who don't buy into the crap any more are on their way to hell it's going to be a lot more interesting than 'think what I think' heaven!As for you trying to convert people from being young (5th Grade is about ten eleven, isn't it? Excuse me if I'm wrong)well, you were taught it was right from the start, and as soon as you got free(joined the army)you learnt about real life and reality and not the silly fantasies you were brought up with.
All the best, anyhow.

Jim said...

So you still believe in a God eh?
Do you also believe in a heaven and a hell? Do you think Satan is a reality? You have still got a way to go. All religions exist to have some sort of control over mankind.There is only one truth and that truth is atheism.

Beth said...

I just wanted to say that I'm sorry people rejected you, they obviously aren't listening to Christ. He's the one who hung out with prostitutes, thieves and tax collectors.
I've never believed in Bible thumping. I just believe in the Bible.

David said...

It is a shame you were treated like that upon your return. Everyone in that church has backsliden or has a few skeletins in their closet. I would suggest that you pray to God about all this. Just ask him to reveal Himself. Whenever you look to man for guidance you will be disappointed. We screw everything up. I dispised organized religion for the longet time. Just a room full of hypocrites is all it is. For 7 years it was just me and my bible. I came to a point in my life where I just said "Lord, reveal Yourself". He will. I'll be praying for you.

freedy said...

Beth ,you "just believe the bible?
You believe the bible god who
committed genocide over 50 times?
The bible is the worse part of christianity.The hypocrites in the church are simply victums of the written word!

chad said...

Thanks for posting the anti-testimony. Even though I've read 100's on this sight over the past couple years, I never get tired of hearing the same old pattern of de-conversion over and over again; just as I never get tired of hearing how another child has been saved from the clutches of a devious pedafile on court TV. In many respects, after all, Christianity is downright abusive, and gaining freedom from the dysfunction is similar to a re-birth, ironically--a reason for celebration!

That being said, I'm a bit confused as to why you were so disillusioned to discover that your old Bible-thumping compadres did not receive you with open arms after learning that you had become the epitome of sin. I mean, c'mon bro, what the hell did you expect; you just seem incredibily naive to anticipate a warm welcome back into the fold while reeking with the stench of hedonism...lol.

Nevertheless, I'm delighted that you've finally learned that church members, despite their "spiritually-correct" persona, are merely a glorified form of high-school cliques.

Jim, my friend, why the disparaging cross-examination? As a negative atheist myself, I almost have as much disdain for positive atheists, such as yourself, that preach the "TRUTH" of atheism, in a manner just shy of outright Bible-thumping, as I do for Bible-thumpers themselves. Atheists are suppose to occupy the intellectual high-ground compard to relgionists, and adopting the same degree of fanatical exlusivisim is not conducive to such. In addition to realizing that evidence for the traditional, biblical picture of God is largely lacking, most atheists become atheists precisely becausd they realize that "TRUTH" is not a choice between two sides of a black and white, epistemic coin. On the contrary, they concede that "TRUTH" is on a continuum between an epistemic white and an epistemic black. Philosophically, your "you have still got a long way to go" attitude contributes the stigma that atheists are pretentious elitists. And besides, if I understand the purpose of this web-site, it is not a conversion mill for atheists; rather, it is meant to provide a support to those that are trying to recover from the aftermath of Christianity, regardless of whether or not they embrace your personal "TRUTH", Jim.

FatherTyme said...

Regarding David's comments:

Everyone in that church has backslidden or has a few skeletons in their closet.(But Not, Saint David!)

I dispised organized religion for the longest time. Just a room full of hypocrites is all it is.(But Not, Saint David!)

"Whenever you look to(man)for guidance you will be disappointed. We screw everything up."

A man and many men wrote the bible, yet you look to the man written book for guidance.


David, your paroted cliche's are not valid according to your man written bible; (Just ask him to reveal Himself. I came to a point in my life where I just said "Lord, reveal Yourself". He will.)

The Gospel According To St.John, ch 1 vs 18, "No man hath seen God at any one time." Now you're telling people god will reveal himself to them and the bible plainly states that no man has seen god at anyone time, so who are we supposewd to believe? You or the bible? Or neither one?

David: I'll be praying for you.(Why don't you just boil some water, at least water turns into steam.)

David is the perfect example of what all religions represent, an elite self-boasting, self-annointing, self-preservation into holywood.

Not one person on this planet is born with a knowledge of a god, it is brow-beat into us by our parents, we're under some form of control even into adulthood, until you're ready to face, that you're alone in this world, you are the only god you'll ever know.

David said...

For the record, I never claime to be a saint or anything even close to a saint. I have spent my entire life in sin. I have lied, cheated, stolen; I even had an adulterous afair. The church is for the sinner, I'm sinning right now as I write this response.

"A man and many men wrote the bible, yet you look to the man written book for guidance." What is your point here? What difference does it make if men wrote the bible. All it is is a historical account of things that happened. The Lord can still use it to move in you and speak to you. He can use anything, He could talk to you through you "Alpha-bits" if he wanted.

"The Gospel According To St.John, ch 1 vs 18, "No man hath seen God at any one time." " That is true. You know, you can't see gravity either but you see it's pull. You know it is there. He will "reveal" Himself, His intentions, His plan for your life.

Never once did I boast your say that I had all the answers. And I hope I am not coming across as advisarial with you, that is not my intent. I preach this and this alone, "Christ and Christ crucified". I was a sinner before I was saved, and now I am a sinner saved by grace. He knows I will fall before I do, and He still picks me up, dusts me off, and waits for me to fall again. Christianity is a journey, not a destination. Call that a cliche if you will but there it is.

Anyway, to "From Bible-thumper to a Deist" I say I will still be praying for you. And for "Ben", I'll boil some water, and then pray for you.

God Bless

passerby said...

David,
When you say you will pray for us, please don't. It makes you look like a person who has been brainwashed by the Christian meme. It's a very silly concept.
http://www.christianitymeme.org

When you see someone praying to a snake, you will think it's silly, right? When you see people praying to a cow(or Allah, Osiris, Krishna, etc) you will think they are silly, right? When you say you will pray for us, we think you are being very silly.


May Jealous bless you too, David.

Jeff said...

Well i wasnt going to but i figured id see what people were saying about my testimony, and i will answer a few questions as well

To Jim: Thats smooth that your an Athiest, i did study that as well but i guess its just the optimist in me that wont let the concept of God go, i dont believe in the biblegod, just the off chance that perhaps thier was a God, Satan no I've grown beyond that, heaven and hell, i dont believe in hell but heaven is a nice thought again most likley the optimist in me haha.

To David: the passerby is correct when people say they will pray for me it annoys me to no end, and frankly when i used to be a christian it annoyed me as well hehe.

To Chad: i realize now it was kinda naive to expect the bible thumpers to take me back, but at the time i was truley naive and i figured theyed just view me as the guy most of them had grown up with but needless to say i found out just who my friends were and who they werent.

And thats about it, thanks for the support and i hope all goes well for all of you,

Dan (Rationalist) said...

A million years from now "Homo Cosmos" man will study us with amusement. How we were convinced that the "force" that set everything in motion was absolutely concerned about the primitive belief systems we came up with. They wont know what that force is either, but they will be amazed at the fact that we were smart enough to go to the moon, and at the same time believed that there was a God with all of the same characteristics as ourselves, who needed to have a human sacrificed to him.
Dan (Rationalist)

FatherTyme said...

The question is, How do you unbrainwash a fundy?

When someone says I will pray for you, it means I will talk to myself about you. So this means that God is really you talking to yourself. This is the reason so many people think it is a god talking to them, a perfect example would be David.

God exists only in the living conscious brain, after death, all thoughts that anyone has accepted as true, will immediately disappear. Then the sceptic will say how do you know this. It's because when you go to sleep or unconscious all thoughts of god and jesus and things you've been taught since you were a child, all disappear, this is proof within itsself.

David said:
I preach this and this alone, "Christ and Christ crucified". I was a sinner before I was saved, and now I am a sinner saved by grace. He knows I will fall before I do, and He still picks me up, dusts me off, and waits for me to fall again. Christianity is a journey, not a destination. Call that a cliche if you will but there it is.

He said this, he said that, he, he, he, David you're just repeating something you've heard, had you never heard or read a bible, you would not be mimicking garbage that you've heard.

And you're sinning as you write back to us, why? because you're breathing? Once you stop breathing and are dead you will officially stop sinning?

How foolish can people allow themselves to be?

A man crucified on a stick saves sins, get real David! is that entirely possible? apparently not.

David you're talking to yourself and calling it from god, is that sane?

Gliph said...

Welcome Jeff!

First post here and already ruffling a few feathers, you'll fit in nicely. :)

Thanks for sharing, keep reading and researching on your own, its what most of us do around here. You will find your own path that makes the most sense to you, whether its a Diest, Agnostic, Atheist, or whatever. We'll try and keep you away from those pesky xtians though... :)

south2003 said...

David said: "The Gospel According To St.John, ch 1 vs 18, "No man hath seen God at any one time." " That is true."

Uh? Unless you do not agree that the ENTIRE bible is the word of your god, then you are correct.

Here goes:

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved

Exodus 33:11: And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend....

Those are just a few, but let's look at the verse you posted:

John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Side note: [the word "one" does not appear between "any" and "time" as stated in your post.]

Anyhow, "God the only begotten son" does mean Jesus, right? John 3:16 also refers to Jesus as the "only begotten son," correct? So is this saying no one has ever seen Jesus? I rest my case. Guys, there you have it - proof that the entire Gospel is a hoax...no man has every seen Jesus…lol.

David, keep posting your dribble in here so I can rip ‘em to shreds.

Later

FatherTyme said...

The source of god revealed!!

The source of god is your brain, your brain is communicating with your inner self or itself. Your brain is analyzing the information it sees and hears and what it has seen and been told to be accepted as truth. Language and speech is accepted and learned behavior, no one born in America has to read a book to learn how to speak the English language, it is taught by mimicking and repetition, just like a belief, it is learned behavior by mimicking and repetition, then it is memorized. The information that you receive by your parents, preacher, authority figures, is weighed by your brain as to whether it is valid or not, but since we've all been under constant rule by authority, we are afraid to challenge this information in fear of retribution or punishment or a threat of eternal damnnation.

God is only a concept, taught out of fear and ignorance, as long as humans accept fear and ignorance as legtimate norms, god and religion and urban myths will always be an accepted part and belief of society....so sad for the future of humanity.

David said...

To Ben ;

I found this site about a week or so ago and ititally was interested to see what some of you ex-(insert religion here)ists had to say. I was moved to tears by some of the testimonies of those who have been betrayed, lied to, or mislead to a point where they just gave up. No matter what side of the fence you are on, Christian or otherwise, you have to admit that it is tragic.

But reading the posts of the other members of this “Community of Believers”, or NON-Believers, it is apparent to me that you and your fellow “x”-ists are virtually no different then the Christians you persecute. On this site we have a group of people who share similar beliefs, who congregate in a certain place (cyber-space) and discuss, encourage, and edify each other. That sounds a lot like a church to me. And you all immediately assume that anyone who holds an alternative viewpoint is wrong. What really amazed me is that all of your beliefs require the same amount of “FAITH” as the Christian beliefs you so obviously abhore.

“The source of god is your brain, your brain is communicating with your inner self or itself. Your brain is analyzing the information it sees and hears and what it has seen and been told to be accepted as truth.” These are your words. Can you prove any of what you say? I would love to see your published works or any other evidence you can offer. And the conviction in which you speak these words is so evident. It just drips off every sentence. You truly believe what you’re saying. But you are also equally unwilling to even listen to or consider another point of view. In my opinion you are no better than the “Fundies” you persecute.

I am trying to be totally objective in my assessment of the situation here. If you don’t agree please reply. But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much. “This is our view, all others are wrong”. Totally exclusive like all other hardcore religions. In all my posts I never admonished or belittled what anyone said, but pretty much everyone said I was being self-righteous. I just don’t see it. Take a good look inside at your character and your choices. Much of this site talks about other people; “I left the church because of this” or “I know Christians who do that” so Christianity must be wrong. Whatever. Take a good look in the mirror, objectively, and honestly and tell me what you see. I’m looking forward to it.

Later.

FatherTyme said...

David just like all my posts you will find that the reason anyone has a belief is from emotional childhood fear, just as you're afraid to give up the notion that your make believe god is not real.

And as far as faith, non of us ex-tians believe in faith, if god is real to you, why do you need faith?
Faith only gets in the way of your belief.

David:
I would love to see your published works or any other evidence you can offer. (just go back up a few posts and you'll see my published works.) So this tells me that only published works holds the infallible truth, according to David.


And the conviction in which you speak these words is so evident. It just drips off every sentence. You truly believe what you’re saying. No,I do not believe what I am saying is true, I Know what I am saying is True, there is a big difference.

What I write on here, is totally self-evident, if you were not so brainwashed you could comprehend my posts, many on here do comprehend what I write, and most also agree 100% and I also with them.

David:
But you are also equally unwilling to even listen to or consider another point of view.

Listen David, I've considered your religious and fundy and fake jesus for 35 years, jesus is dead and he thought he was coming back in his diciples life time, read Mark ch 9 vs 1. I really think 35 years of believing fake nonsense is more than enough time wasted on a lie, fairytale, myth, hoax, con, fraud.
David how many years and how many lies will you have to hear, before you figure out it's all bullshit?

As far as persecusion (ha ha big belly laugh!) the old stand by fundy excuse, David I can imagine you're about 21 years old and call home to mommy every night or still live with your parents.

David, I stepped on your god, and your make believe jesus, and it threatens your childhood beliefs and emotions, it's time to grow up little boy and face reality, I know you do not want to, because you will have to cut your jesus umbilical cord comfort zone, or you can continue to live in your delusional baby jesus thoughts and live in a stupor of santimonium the rest of your life. Time to get real David.

FatherTyme said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
David said...

To Ben:

Let me tell you about myself. I am 27 years old, married, and recently adopted a six year old girl. She was a distant niece that we rescued from DCF (Dept. of children and families). I have lived alone since I was 17. My parents never approved of my Christian beliefs and we still don’t see eye-to-eye. Needless to say I don’t call her every night. I also OWN (no mortgage) the home that my wife and I live in and I rent out another house nearby. So I am not living with my parents. I have been a struggling Christian since Sept. 2nd, 1994. I am not struggling with my faith but just the day to day living as a Christian and trying to live by Christ’s teachings. Not easy as you know, but well worth it in my opinion.

Despite what you have said, I do consider other view points and interpretations. Just because I do not agree does not mean I do not listen. Maybe you do not see the difference but there is a difference. A big one.

I did not become a Christian because of some childhood fear. I was not raised in a Christian home and never feared hell. I really didn’t know anything about it. I came to the Lord when I was 15. I have fallen away twice, both times rebuking the Lord and prepared to never return. And both times, after finding nothing in redeeming in other religions, in myself, or in this world that satisfied, I prayed. I asked God, if He exists at all, to prove it. To show me, to let me know He was there. He did. I have been delivered from more trials and tribulations than I can recount.

What has your beliefs gotten you? Are you happy? Are you content? You sure don’t sound it. Perhaps this is only my 27 years of youth speaking, or my lack of real world experience but you sound downright miserable.

You don’t NEED faith you say. You have faith in more things you realize. You have faith that God did not create the universe. You have faith the sun will come up tomorrow. You have faith in evolution (I assume here). You have faith there is no God. You have faith in a lot of things you can’t prove. It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that something does not exist. But somehow you can.

I have no problem comprehending your posts. It is not hard to recognize or understand what you are trying to say and get across. I get it! I just don’t see the fruit in what you are doing or saying.

It may be wrong to make those assumptions about you in the above paragraph. I don’t know you and made judgments based on your posts. I apologize. But rest assured my “Jesus umbilical cord” will not be cut. It does not shelter me from the world, or reality, I gives me strength, focus, and hope. As far as a comfort zone; I haven’t found one yet. I am in a war zone everyday, in the mission field. More clichéd analogies, I know, but it’s accurate.

Everyone on this planet thinks what they believe is right. One day we will find out who was correct. Good luck.

Oh, what is with that other post that says “Removed by author”? I think I may like to see what you posted.

Later

.:webmaster:. said...

"You have faith that God did not create the universe[...]You have faith there is no God[...]It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that something does not exist."

Uhm, Dave, that's not exactly how it works.

Those who make fantastic claims (invisible gods, angels, devils, etc.) have the responsibility to present evidence proving those fantastic assertions. If someone tells me that every night Big Foot comes to their house for dinner, I'd have every right to doubt them until they presented some tangible evidence. If they told me that they could provide no evidence except for a feeling in their heart, well, I don't think I'd believe them. Would it ever be my responsibility to PROVE that Big Foot is NOT coming to their house for dinner?

By what you're saying, my unbelief would be tantamount to boldly declaring that there is no Big Foot and then you'd saddle me with the responsibility of proving it (Big Foot) wasn't true!

If I do boldly declare that there is no such thing as Big Foot, it never would fall to me to prove my disbelief. It falls to those who say, "THERE IS A BIG FOOT" to prove that there is such a thing.

Do you believe in Zeus? If not, why not? Can you PROVE there is no Zeus? Do you believe in Allah? If not, why not? Can you PROVE there is no Allah?

You dogmatically said, "everyone on this planet thinks what they believe is right." Do you believe in UFOs? I don't. I've seen no evidence of UFOs, so I don't believe in them. Many people do, however. People believe all kinds of wacky things. Invisible gods, angels, devils, and flying undead man-gods on sticks sound like wacky things to me.

When you can present some verifiable evidence that your invisible friends exist, then we could have a logical exchange of ideas. In the meantime, all you are doing is spouting mythology and accusing everyone else of having faith in -- well, faith in NOT believing in your myths.

I have faith in not believing in your god? Does that even sound right?

While you are correct that "it is impossible to prove something does not exist," it still falls to you to prove that your god indeed DOES exist. I can say there is no Big Foot, no UFOs, no Allah and no Zeus without being required to PROVE that such things don't exist. If one day someone shows me evidence that those things DO exist, then I'll believe in them.

The same goes for your god.

Oh, and the thinly veiled threat of hellfire and judgment ("One day we will find out who was correct. Good luck.") is quite unbecoming.

David said...

To Webmaster,

For the record, there was no threat of hellfire and judgement, at least not intentionally. And for those who felt threatened or judged I apologize.

In regards to your statements requiring burdens of proof; I don’t understand the following statement you made:

If I do boldly declare that there is no such thing as Big Foot, it never would fall to me to prove my disbelief. It falls to those who say, "THERE IS A BIG FOOT" to prove that there is such a thing.

What is the difference between claiming something does not exist and something does exist. Both in my opinion would be unsubstansiated claims if you can’t provide proof either way.

The sad thing is that all this arguing and discussion ultimately leads to a dead end. One party will never agree with the other. And even if I could provide some evidence it would just be written off. Christ could walk among us, perform miracles, raise people from the dead and still people won’t believe. It happed 2000 years ago and it would happen today if he came back. And I have to admit that if Ala were to walk among us I would probably not believe it either. In my opinion, the things I have seen and experienced is proof enough for me but not for everyone else posting on this site.

I won’t try to convince you or anyone to see “OUR” side but I hope if you guys have questions or whatever, for what it is worth, I’m here.

Later

SharonaAvigail said...

I am not an ex-christian, I am a Jew. Not "just a Jew", I would be catargorized as a Conservative-Jew. Our kids got to an Orthodox school, we keep our house somewhat Kosher, and try to observe the Sabbath by not working. I wanted to write because I have spent my life studying other religions and faiths, and I have found that Bhuddism is probably my favorite one! And its not even a religion. But it teaches one to focus on breathing, which takes one to a plaine that is what ever you want to call it! My family, especially my husband, does not know that I consider myself more of a Deist leaning toward agnostic, secretly practicing Bhuddism! LOL. I don't realy know what my point it except to say that Christianity/Catholosism, is such a complete farse, I mean.... do any of these people realize that more people have died in the name of Christ than any other single holocaust or genocide. Some Bhuddist monk did a study and figures more than 22-million people died during the time of the crusades and after that. How can people forget that? Do the Jews get any credit that most of the rituals that are performed in the name of Christ are derived from Jewish rituals, and how about paying some tribute to the Pagans every Sunday morning, or during just about every Holiday. I'm sorry, I am ranting, but I feel I have a place to do it. I am not coming from a Jewish perspective, I am coming from the sceptic in me. You wouldn't believe the number of rituals the Orthodox do throughout their daily routine, it borders on OCD. Maybe I should find an ex-Jew site! Ya know, ultimatly, if there realy was a man name Jesus,I think he was a more like a rock star, and all the girls loved him, and he was probably a nice guy with alot of great ideas, but those ideas have since been high-jacked by those who wanted to capitalize on his popularity. It's working.
Thanks for letting me vent, I haven't even covered half of the things that annoy me about organized religion. And by the way, to the guy who just posted about being shunned by his fellow paritioners when he came back from the army, it happens in Judaism too. Thanks

.:webmaster:. said...

Dave, there is NO BIGFOOT.

Now, if you want to argue about it, please prove that there is one.

Here is how the rules of evidence works, until you PROVE there is evidence FOR something, then the invisible thing you're promoting just doesn't exist, except in your own imagination.

Before Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone, everyone could boldly say "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TELEPHONE!" They didn't have to scour the Universe to prove that statement. However, once Bell invented the telephone, and presented to the world, THEN, and ONLY THEN, was there a telephone. Up until that point, the phone was only in his mind.

You really need to take some logic courses. Your thinking ability has been hobbled.

The argument is at a dead end, because you want people to accept what you say without presenting ANY evidence proving your fantastic claim!

I DOUBT YOUR CLAIM. I DON'T BELIEVE YOUR CLAIM. YOUR CLAIM IS ONLY IN YOUR IMAGINATION.

Now, you have every right to prove my doubts wrong, but I don't have to justify doubting you -- it is YOUR responsiblity to PROVE your positive assertion.

You have to support your belief in a god. I don't have to support my disbelief in a god. Do you think you should have to support your disbelief in Allah, in Zeus, in the Great Spirit? Do you think Allah is just pretend? Do you think you should have to PROVE that Allah is just pretend in order to justify your LACK of faith in Allah?

Please, take a logic course.

In fact, take two.

David said...

I can support my disbelief in other Gods with the scriptures. I won't bother quoting it to you because you won't buy it anyway. This is what I was talking about when I said any evidence would just be written off. Yes you will say "this isn't evidence", "we can prove this isn't evidence". Fine.

You and your followers still make a lot of assumptions (ie: "It's all in your imagination"). Again, something you can't prove and still believe. You've managed to surround yourself with a lot of other people who are just as stuborn and close minded as all those who you loath and disrespect show much in "THE CHURCH". You would benifit from taking the blinders off. In fact, take the ear plugs out as well.

Frankly I am bored with you. I am wasting electricity talking to you when I could just talk to the four walls in this room for free and be just as understimulated. You are wrong when you state you don't have to prove your disbeliefs, and that is fine with me. You can be wrong if you like.

Later

SharonaAvigail said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dave8 said...

David: "I am trying to be totally objective in my assessment of the situation here. If you don’t agree please reply."

David, can any person on this planet be totally objective? Do you believe everyone on this planet is equal, in their genetic makeup, and environmental experiences that give us knowledge of this life?

Do you believe, that an Objective reality exists, in our universe somewhere? Can you please explain, how a person with obviously unique natures and nurtures, thus unique perceptions of reality, can possibly perceive an Objective reality as an equal to others of humanity?

Do you support the theory of general/special relativity/determinism, or are you more of a follower of the uncertainty principle/indeterminism? Why? Feel free to provide empirical examples.

David: "But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much."

That statement sounds absolutist to me, however, that's my "subjective" view, as, its obvious we all perceive our macro reality, in much the subjective manner. Unless, you want to define a few dimensions of reality, on your leisure, and tie them together nicely with some mathematical order theory, again, using some empirical evidence.

David: "“This is our view, all others are wrong”. Totally exclusive like all other hardcore religions."

If you can't support your view as a Universal Absolute, it appears your view is just a mere subjective opinion, amongst the billions on this planet, how privilaged many of us are that you grace us with your wisdom. I personally, wouldn't call your opinion, "wrong", I don't know what's going on in your mind, you obviously believe the information you hold is "true". However, if you attempt to convey your, mentally held belief onto others, as a guide, then you need to provide your belief, in a manner in which many on this site will accept your vision/truth, for me - that would be empirical evidence please. So, that I may take what you provide, and "subjectively" inspect the evidence, and create a "subjectively" laden opinion for my Self.

David: "In all my posts I never admonished or belittled what anyone said, but pretty much everyone said I was being self-righteous. I just don’t see it."

David: "But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much."

Well, self-righteous could be perceived by us mere mortals, as you portraying "all" people on this globally expansive site, as religious "absolutists". In order for you to make that statement as a "truth", you must perceive yourself as omniscient, and knowledgeable of "all" people who view this site - some may consider that being slightly self-righteous, and even a little pompous. However, you do have that right, and every opportunity to exercise and finesse your technique I suppose.

David: "Take a good look inside at your character and your choices."

Okay, but of course, that leads us back to a subjective truth and how we perceive our reality. We are all correct in our own minds, its how we interact with others, based on our values, that appears to make the difference for many of us.

David: "Much of this site talks about other people; “I left the church because of this” or “I know Christians who do that” so Christianity must be wrong."

If Christianity, is not to be inspected by the sum of its parts - christian people and the examples they set, then, please explain how one is to measure the objectivity of christianity.

By order theory, its obvious, that you must hold that christianity is a Univesal Object, part of the set - Objective Reality. How does one perceive an Objective Reality, if they themselves are held abound, by their own subjective views in life? Would it be presumptious to say, that you have no more objective truth, than your subjectivism allows?

David: "Whatever. Take a good look in the mirror, objectively, and honestly and tell me what you see. I’m looking forward to it."

What I see, and perceive appears to be of truth to me, but as an educated person, I must concede that my views are mine alone, and they are subjective according to my unique nature and nurture. Any view to the contrary, would seem as repressive as religion in general.

If you have a thought or spark of supreme objectivity, then perhaps you can provide a detailed description of the dimensional aspects where reality is split via supremum and infimum. Then, you can present the world with a final unified theory, bridging together macro and micro theoretical physics. Until that time David, subjectivity rules, to include your subjective view of a "god" figure. Looking forward to your answers to the above questions, as I am sure... you have pondered long and hard on the nature of reality, and how you have come to be one of the elect who found an objective god, in their most subjectively induced life.

Jim Arvo said...

David said "What is the difference between claiming something does not exist and something does exist. Both in my opinion would be unsubstansiated claims if you can’t provide proof either way."

When speaking of empirical facts, there is a huge difference. Oddly, it is religionists who seem to be so keenly aware of the impossibility of proving negative empirical claims that they often use it as a brickbat against atheists, claiming that it renders their position untenable. Indeed, we see that old fallacy repeated here almost on a daily basis. Of course, it's a fallacy because atheists needn't *prove* the negative (i.e. the non-existence of some deity) any more than theists need to *prove* the non-existence of each and every OTHER deity that has been claimed to exist.

So, is that some kind of double standard, or logical chicanery? No. Positive claims, such as claims of existence, carry the burden of proof, otherwise we would be obliged to accept absolutely every loony idea to fall from the lips of every believer, which would include myriad contradictory claims. In other words, to *believe* every proposition until proven false leads to a complete logical mess. Not only would you be bowing to EVERY deity every imagined, but you would be cowering in fear of poltergeists, Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, alien abductors, and the boogieman. In other words, you would be the ultimate credulous fool, who is completely paralyzed by outlandish beliefs.

On the other hand, if you adopt a policy of reserving belief for only those propositions that meet the standard of *evidence* (i.e. *warranted* belief), then it is possible (in principle) to rid yourself of logical contradictions, not to mention a pantheon of false gods. I say that this desirable state is possible "in principle" because there is still the matter of sifting through the purported evidence and determining which is valid and which is not; a process that is, of course, subject to error. However, with dedication and practice, one can gain considerable skill in weighing evidence, thereby reducing the likelihood of error. In any case, one is clearly better off than being mired in countless contradictions, which is the price one pays for extreme credulity.

Bottom line: I have examined the purported evidence for the existence of your deity (presumably the god of Abraham), and thus far I have found not a single shred of it to be credible; indeed, the vast majority of it does not rise above logical fallacy or distortion of fact. I am therefore acting rationally by disbelieving the claims of those who say he exists. In a similar vein, I reject the claims of Muslims and Hindus. They too have failed to provide credible evidence of their deities, in my opinion.

Now, David went on to say that "Christ could walk among us, perform miracles, raise people from the dead and still people won’t believe." Which is to say, EVEN IF compelling evidence was provided, we would disregard it and continue to reject claims of the divinity of Jesus. Well, that is nothing more than speculation on your part. (Your claim that "It happed 2000 years ago" is another positive claim that is lacking evidentiary support; and seeing as how it subsumes your other claims, appealing to it is circular anyway.) Since there is no such evidence at hand, a completely valid question to ask is "Where is the evidence?". That is the first bridge to cross, and it is yours to navigate.

Jim Arvo said...

David later added "I can support my disbelief in other Gods with the scriptures." Of course, that support is only as good as the scriptures themselves. Thus, without first establishing a basis for accepting the claims made in your holy book, there is no reason to believe them. Indeed, I think the evidence points very dramatically in the opposite direction; i.e. that the Bible is simply a product of imaginative human writers. I say this based on the history of its development, analysis of its text, and careful comparison of its doctrines and even incidental motifs with dozens of more ancient religions, to name just a few of the major lines of evidence that undermine the authority of the Bible, putting in on a par with every other purportedly divinely inspired text (of which there are many).

David then added this ad hominem attack: "You've managed to surround yourself with a lot of other people who are just as stuborn and close minded as all those who you loath and disrespect..."

David, we all make assumptions, and we all make mistakes. Agreed? What matters to me is whether a person is willing to examine both (all) sides of an issue and to continually look for ill-founded conclusions in one's own thinking. I find very few believers who are willing to do either of these things. In fact, the vast majority of them (at least among those who visit this site) simply cast aspersions at those who hold different beliefs. That is no way to arrive at something approximating truth. In fact, in my opinion, it is the surest way to sink into a pit of self-deception, sheltered by prejudice and in many cases outright bigotry.

Dan (Rationalist) said...

You first have to define what God is before you can discuss whether or not you believe in it.
Since no one knows exactly what put everything into motion, then no one knows what God is. Therefore any exclamations about belief or disbelief are meaningless.

If you say that God is the prime mover of the universe, then you are saying that you believe in God.

If you say that God is the bumbling fool of the Bible, and you say that you believe in him, you aren't really saying anything more than if you said that you believed in the God of any of the myriad other religions down through history.

BEFORE YOU CAN STATE WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE IN SOMETHING, YOU FIRST HAVE TO DEFINE WHAT "SOMETHING" IS!
Dan (Rationalist)

Sorry Jeff. These "teachers" who are having their relationships with Jesus, and come here to witness to us, don't realize that they are up against people who are free of cultist thinking, and we take our teaching from the greatest thinkers of all time. Those brave great men and women who brought about the age of enlightenment, and the end of the dark ages.

SpaceMonk said...

David: "You and your followers still make a lot of assumptions..."

I come to this website alot but I am not here because I'm anyone's follower.
I'm here because I gave up following.
I dumped all of my assumptions and I'm starting from scratch.
This website has kept me from going down many and varied wacky paths, because it has kept me on my toes in demanding proof and continuing to question, to doubt - and not to just 'follow'.

You say you weren't happy with other religions and had to turn back to bible-god. Maybe you just don't like to think too hard?
It's easier just to follow.

You need to get out of the 'follower' mentality, of "Should I follow this, or that religion, no, I'll settle for this one..."

When we don't accept what you say to us, and don't just nicely follow along, you say you're bored.
You don't want to tell us what your expeiences were that proved to you that bible-god exists.

So we see that it's too hard for you to justify what you follow because it would take thought, and facing up to questions.
That's too much for you.

Jesus is the 'good shepherd' and you are the good and faithful sheep.

Do you ever think deep enough to realise that the only reason a shepherd protects and guides his sheep is so that he can use them for his own purposes later on?
To shear them for wool, slaughter them for food, trade, etc.

It's all about control, and the man-made bible is made to control other men.

You've been had, by cunning old men from ancient times.
Good sheep.

"Obedience, Bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth,
Makes slaves of men, and, of the human frame,
A mechanized automaton."
- Percy Bysshe Shelley (Queen Mab)

Jeff said...

Its amusing to me to read debates, how quickly something goes from a testimony to a discussion about "bigfoot" hahaha, im not making fun of anyone, i was just reading through this and thought it was funny, anyways once again thanks for the support.

Jeff said...

Oh and another thing that strikes me, im sure most of you know about those door to door kirby vacuum salesman, well it sorta occured to me the other day when i was talking to a christian, thier almost one in the same the only difference is thier dogma,

Both believe so strongly in thier product that thier willing to do anything to sell it to anyone.

Both see the customer as nothing more than a sale, to a christian a sale that will get them better in with gawd and the kirby guy for some commision.

the only difference i can see in them is that the kirby vacuum can actually be proven as to weather or not its a good product, (ive never bought one so i couldnt tell you if it was really as awesome as they say it is or not.)

Well i guess i just went from
testimony, to bigfoot, to kirby vacuums hahaha, just something i thought id share.

J21 said...

Hi! What's going on? Oh... let me just read all this first....................... Hmmm. There's alot of good stuff here (and just ALOT of stuff). Well let me open myself up to the proverbial firing squad here by saying that I am a born again Christian. I'll wait while you all role your eyes.... Alright. So, how's everyone doing? Good? Bad? So so? I'm just going to be writing in a loose free floating fashion (sounds like a band name), so bare with me.
Let's start off by making pretty much everyone here angry and/or frustrated(except for maybe Dave and one or two others). "The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." Angry yet. Its ok to admit it. But if you are not, then yay!
So I’m not even going to try to keep up with some of you as far as intellectual conversation is concerned (or for that matter spelling). I've only taken one or two philosophy classes, so my knowledge of said subject is probably not up to par with most of you. But hey, we all suffer fools at one point or another! So get ready to suffer! (I'd suggest that you read this posting while thinking of Vincent Price's voice. Just makes things more interesting. And Vincent Price is cool anyway.)
I'd say that trying to prove or disprove God's existence is the definition of futility. Especially is one's own mind is already made up and barred against such notions. I cannot prove to you that He does, and you can't prove to me that He doesn’t. I think its pretty easy to see that most of us are on one side of this fence or the other. So lets just ruminate about the nature of God, as seen in most main stream religions. He's all powerful, He's all knowing, He's perfect, and He is spiritual in nature (and if you are/were of the Christian faith He is love). SO, that being said, (and I can already hear some of you pulling out your thesauruses to systematically chop me down to size) wouldn’t it be physically impossible to prove or disprove that such a being exists? If something (God) is outside our physical reality then the question is academic. There is a really interesting connection to the Big Bang here, but I wont get into that, else this posting will last forever and ever and ever.
I'd say to Jeff, who started this exhilarating dialogue in the first place, thanks!! Had he not posted his testimony none of us would have known that each other existed. Also, it sucks that you were treated in such a way by the churches that you went to (uh oh, a self professed Christian said sucks! GOD MUST NOT EXIST!!!) Sorry about that. Anyway. I cant imagine anyone in my own church acting in such a terrible way. (You can take solace in the fact that if you believe in God, they will answer for what they did to you one day. Maybe not pay for it, but answer for it at least. And if you don’t, then take solace in the fact that none of it means anything anyway. Its just so hard to stay on topic when you write this way!!!) I mean, I go to a pretty small church. I play bass in the worship band. All the bass players say "OHHH"! Ahem... Now say that one day I'm feeling pretty angry/frustrated/just ornery in general and I go on some kind of rampage and start bad mouthing everyone, disrupting the service, and just generally causing a ruckus. Hell, I could even start smoking pot and drinking again! (College was fun, wasn’t it?) I could do all that and any number of other things and still they would love me for who I am. That is the philosophy of my church. Take people for who they are and where they are at. Truly showing them God's love. Now that is not to say that I wouldn’t hear about it or get a couple of awkward stares or have the pastor and elders pull me aside for a long conversation. But outright ostrasization (sp?) wouldn’t occur. I think I'm getting off topic again, assuming that I was ever on of course. Anyway, I think it is incorrect to think that the actions of a few, relatively speaking, account for the whole sum. In my own life I've tried hard not to give people a negative outlook on God or Christianity by not screwing things up, i.e. opening my mouth and inserting foot. "When necessary use words" has been my moto for showing people God's love. I'm a little surprised I'm even posting here! But where was I... Lost my train of thought. Oh, if you take the actions of some "Christians" that you have encountered as the sum and total of the Christian experience then I think you may be missing the point. Some of you are still rolling your eyes. I can hear it. Sounds like someone twisting a fish in a jar of mayonnaise. My point here is, finally, try to separate the messenger from the message. If you have an active interest in knowing who God is and what He's about then I would hope that you would seek beyond the sour grapes. It would be like sucking on one of those wicked sour candies. Sure it bites at first, but if you keep at it you get to the sweet sweet center and all is well. I’m hard pressed not to make a Homer Simpson reference here. Must…resist… Or you can just look at the surface and form your own opinions based on your own limited experiences.
"But aren't you doing just that right now" you might say? Damn straight I am! That is what everyone on this site is doing. (see futility above). But I also think that we are all missing something. I know I did when I first started coming to this place. I'm not sure if I'm still addressing Jeff here or not. Kind of lost track of my little narration.
We all share so many things in common. Our DNA is practically the same (somewhere around 99% or something like that, maybe 95%, I haven’t been keeping track for awhile), and we all need the same basic things in life. Food, water, shelter, friends, family, a job, love, etc. (feel free to add your own). And yet we, as a race, focus on that 1-5% difference between ourselves. Maybe it is a hard wired behavior (now all the behavioral psychologists and what not are going to flame me for delving into their territory), I don’t know, but don’t you think its ridiculous? Sure I sound like some dirty smelly hippy (it sounds sorta like that to me), but do you know what I'm trying to say? If you do, great, if not, ok. I'm going to end this now. I've gone on waaaaaay too long. I'm sure most of you agree with that assessment. Tell me what you think. Oh, and just to fire some of you up again, "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless." -Bertrand Russell, atheist.
So much for keeping things civil.

Jeff said...

to j21: I understand your confusion as to why i left, believe me thier was alot more going on than just a "few" christians shunning me, that was only part of the story, had i gone into detail i could write a book about it, haha.

The "messengers" were only a small part of my leaving, and like you said this whole conversation is futile.

Also with the utmost respect i ask of you please dont insult my intelligence, you dont think out of the 22 yrs i was a christian i didnt delve deep into the "word" and look at it with an open heart. please i took that as an insult to my charactor, but im not mad at you, you just assumed,

and one other pointer, when writting big posts, please make a break every once and a while it makes it easier to read ;) i appreciate your post even ive i rolled my eyes a few times (haha)

but your still not getting my budlight (or conversion) :)

J21 said...

Hey Jeff! Yeah, you’re right. I REALLY should have put in more breaks. But you know how it goes. The words just start to flow and proper grammatical structure and what not go right out the window.

Look! A Break!! WHEEEEEEEEEEE ok. So, uh,….. right. I don’t really get what you were insulted about. Something about delving into the word… Oh! Do you mean the part I wrote about one looking past the “sour surface” and seeking God? Yeah, I can see that, if that’s what I’m supposed to see. I was just going off of the limited info I had about your ordeal. And I can relate to what you were talking about (in my own limited way at least). I left “The Church” awhile ago. Around about high school/college to be precise. I just got tired of jumping through the hoops that were being placed in front of me and acting how I thought people wanted me to act. I was also struggling with the notion that there were humans whom God had created for the express purpose of going to hell. So how could a God of Love really exist or do such a thing? Tune in later for a special report at 11!!

So I got really really tired of it all. REALLY!! And so one bright and shiny Sunday morning I got up, looked out the window, and decided that I would no longer go to church. Period. I didn’t get any flack from my family (who raised me in a Christian environment. You can all blast me for what happens later as part of a nature/nurture thing and attribute any notion to it you can think of) and I went on my merry way. Some of you, if you are familiar with scripture, could call it going “Cold” instead of “Hot” for God. But I made an effort to distance myself from all things God related and so on and so forth. I’m going to insert a break here so WATCH OUT!

There. Graceful and majestic. Like a trapeze artist flying from one perch to the next. So anyway, I wanted nothing to do with the church anymore. Props to my fam (for proper pronunciation see the movie “What about Bob”) for letting me go off on my own, by the way.

Jump ahead oh… about 5 or 6 years. A friend of mine was playing in the church band (which consisted of the pastor, his wife, and him) and the pastor + wife were out on vacation. So this friend of mine asks me to play with him, for a couple of reasons. 1. He didn’t want to stand up there by himself. 2. I play bass, he plays guitar, he needed at least some part of the rhythm section.

I had not intended to play for more than that one day. None whatsoever. I was done with church and God and all that stuff. Yet I kept playing. This church was nothing like the one that had pushed me away. NOTHING! –on a separate note, I guess this would be considered MY testimony. Which, when looked at beside the others on this site, would probably act as a polar opposite, thus canceling each other out to an emotional/philosophical/psychological/theological/and whatever other ‘als’ you can think of, grey. And what does that even MEAN?!?!?

So long story short, I’m still there. And for all the crap that others would gladly fling upon my head like so many howler monkeys (and now people will think I’m calling them monkeys, which I’m not, but go figure. Subjectivity, bites all who wield it. Is that even a sentence?) my relationship with God…. Stop laughing back there…hey!...You!...Yes you in the Red Sox hat!...Report to the office!... ahem. My relationship with God has improved dramatically. Which isn’t to say that I’m some sort of super Christian (do those even exist?), but as Dave said, its all about the journey, not the destination. Should faith appear here? Is it even applicable on this site? I mean, everyone, from Zealot to Atheist has some measure of faith. Right? Faith in a loving and forgiving God. Faith that the sun will come up tomorrow. Faith that when my check gets electronically deposited it actually gets there. Faith that the ones we love actually mean it when they say they love us. Faith that the town we drive through isn’t just a bunch of cardboard and plywood facades. Faith that we aren’t just a brain in a jar being screwed with by some diabolical mad genius (thank YOU psychology 101). Know what I mean? So I guess without faith all this talk about God and spirituality and whatnot is meaningless… Unless it isn’t. But I’m not the one to answer that, am I? I suppose that, to some degree, we all have to answer that ourselves. (Insert break here)

Wow, that’s a lot of posting right there! AGAIN! What’s up with that? Oh, speaking of backsliders (“but no one was talking about backsliders,” you might say? Well I just did! So thank you.) I’ve been humming that Toadies song about backsliders. Anyone remember the Toadies? They had that minor hit back in the nineties… I don’t remember it right now. I’m not sure what the age bracket is like in here so no one may even know what I’m talking about. But check them out. They’ve got serious overtones of Ex-Christians in their songs, which Rock anyway. Lyrics like ‘I come from the water, I crawled up on the shore,’ and the like. Look them up if you’re interested.

Last paragraph, I promise. So Jeff, as you’ve told me before, you have spent many years in “The Word”, so you know that anything I say is like water off a duck’s back. I’m not out to reconvert you. You choose your own path. Nothing I say will bring anyone, (you, him, that guy over there, or her for that matter) to a fuller understanding of God. Nothing I say will bring anyone to a closer relationship with Jesus (which reminds me of a “prophecy” I heard years ago about a time when everything will be tolerated except the name of Jesus. Naysayers on your marks, get set……. GO!). The only thing that brings people to such a place is……….

p.s. Everyone can bash Christianity and the followers of Christ all you want. Some of them deserve it, some of them really REALLY don’t. But whatever shortcomings you may find in our ways or persons know this. The central theme is all about love. And how can true, real, sincere love be all that bad?

p.p.s If you could send on over a case of Honeybrown or Amstel Light that would be SUPER! Mmmmmmmmm… Honeybrown.

Dan (Rationalist) said...

J21 ,
By your own admission we cannot know anything for sure about God. We can't even say he is all powerful, all knowing, perfect, spiritual, or that he is love, or for that matter that it is even intelligent, so your statement below is just rumination, pure and simple.

You said:
"So lets just ruminate about the nature of God, as seen in most main stream religions. He's all powerful, He's all knowing, He's perfect, and He is spiritual in nature (and if you are/were of the Christian faith He is love)"

If you look at the nature of man, and how we got to the top of the food chain, it ain't a pretty picture, so one must question the God being perfect and loving thing.

We can only assume that we and the universe are here, and something caused it, and if you want to call that "cause," God, OK.?

This is a free country and you can call yourself anything you want. I doubt that anyone on this website really cares.

The reason most of us argue or talk to people who have labeled themselves Christians is that down through history some of the most horrific injustice on this planet has been perpetrated by people who were willing to kill others who were suspected of not believing the same things about mystical beings as the priests, and shamans who were currently in power.

We became the most powerful nation on earth because the men who wrote our constitution, wrote into it the freedom to believe anything you want as long as it doesn't hurt the health and welfare of your neighbor. Our government by law cannot consider religion as a basis for forming policy for the masses, nor can it exclude it.

We can publicly call our president a simpleminded born again evangelical Christian, and all he can do is say we are wrong. He can't even exclude us from holding a public office on the grounds that we are heathens. He must by law afford us the same rights and privileges as his bible toting friends.

Not many here hate Christians, or Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or any other believers of a mystic cult, we simply are afraid of becoming a theocracy like Iran and having some old fools telling us what to wear, when to pray, how to have sex, etc., based on how they have been brainwashed by their respective religious cult.

So call yourself anything you want, but I doubt that you will find many followers of mysticism here.
Dan (Rationalist)

Dave8 said...

J21: "Oh, if you take the actions of some "Christians" that you have encountered as the sum and total of the Christian experience then I think you may be missing the point... My point here is, finally, try to separate the messenger from the message."

The message is the result of a messenger's subjective views. To make a subjective view, more transferrable to others, perhaps the subjective messenger can provide something that can be more objectively viewed, and not absolutely objectively viewed, like some natural evidence.

J21: "We all share so many things in common. Our DNA is practically the same (somewhere around 99% or something like that, maybe 95%, I haven’t been keeping track for awhile),"

Well, and that appears to be the same results as DNA between humanity and chimps.

J21: "...and we all need the same basic things in life. Food, water, shelter, friends, family, a job, love, etc. (feel free to add your own). And yet we, as a race, focus on that 1-5% difference between ourselves. Maybe it is a hard wired behavior..."

That statement is so grossly out of whack I am not sure how I want to respond. Some people believe so strongly in self-esteem and being skinny, they actually starve themselves to death. Why? Aren't we all equal in categorized and general needs? In order for you to make a statement, you are going to have to delve into "values", i.e., life is valuable, therefore, in order to sustain life we are all equal as we need to eat to live, etc. So, J21, name a few objective values so that we can attempt to establish them accross humanity. Many religions have an outlook on life, where death becomes more valuable than life itself. Therefore, "needs", are what we "think" we need, and are as subjective as everyone else. Now, I'd argue that there are naturalistic needs that are required to sustain life, but the value of life itself could be debated, and... most religions are far less compassionate about the needs of the individual, as they find more value in some object in a transcendent reality... people are willing to die for words on a piece of paper... So, no, we don't all have the same needs, as "values" themselves are subjective. J21, you and I, are not the same, sorry... Generalizing needs, and stating that we all "must" perceive those needs, in some respect or another, is nothing short of a religionist saying a god in fact exists, therefore, there "must" be atheists... What not say, there is no factual category of god, until evidence is provided, and thus, there need not be a label of atheism... You presume too much in this reality... That's not an attack, just an observation, from a subjective view...

J21: "(now all the behavioral psychologists and what not are going to flame me for delving into their territory), I don’t know, but don’t you think its ridiculous?"

I think its ridiculous that behaviorists are lumped in with "hard wired" cognitivists, but, that's just me... So, what about those subjective values J21, care to bring any up, so that we may pull some religious rhetoric out and compare and contrast... Life is precious, but then... we have Jesus in a book committing suicide/euthanasia, I suppose Jesus "must" provide humanity with his "Objective" values... So, J21, I suppose if you don't respond to this post, you are a true believer of the bible... unless you didn't get the message, for all of those corrupt messengers...

J21: "Tell me what you think."

Its subjective, you obviously don't understand... You create your little god with your subjective views, and I uncreate your god with my subjective views... However, we both create our subjective reality from a natural source, how was it that you created a god with the same environment that I uncreated your god? I know, you didn't get past the second semester of philosophy, but... think on it.

J21: "Oh, and just to fire some of you up again, "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless." -Bertrand Russell, atheist.
So much for keeping things civil."

Regarding Bertrand, from my readings, his views are that it's impossible to delve into a Universal Purpose, without the aid of a god object external to humanity, as, we are mere humans can only perceieve individual and personal purpose, as a personal truth, with a little "p"...

Betrand, beleived that we can have personal purpose, but to jump to a Universal Purpose is tomfoolery... well, unless a subjective human wants to assume the character of an Objective god, and make statements about what a god's Purpose would be for humanity... but then, J21, that makes the person god themselves doesn't it...

In short, Purpose doesn't exist, we see from a subjective view on reality, and thus have self/personal purpose which provides fulfillment in our lives...

However, there are some authors who capitalize on the ignorance of the masses, and actually state that a person can see past their own peronsal truth and subjective perception, in order to find an "Obective" Truth, i.e., god's Purpose for life, etc.

Now, who would make such a deceiving statement...

**********************************************************************

The Purpose-Driven Life, Rick Warren, Zondervan, 2004.

"It All Starts with God. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, ... everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him.

Colossians 1: 16 (Msg)

'Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless. Bertrand Russell, atheist'

It's not about you."

http://www.readersread.com/excerpts/purposedrivenlife.htm

**********************************************************************

So, Rick, taking on the character role of "god", gives us "his" personal subjective "truth" about god's Purpose in life... Per Rick, its not about "You" and personal purpose... right... But without "You", a person would never search out "Purpose", thus, it appears it really is about "You" First, as it appears Rick has found no problem putting himself/his "You", first when making his most subjective views in a book, while touting he knows the Universal Purpose for life...

Isaiah (700s BCE)KJV bible:
"Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways." [citing God]

It appears some christians, to include authors who write to christians just can't accept that their own veiws are subjective and not the thoughts of a "god", and thus... have "no credibility" when speaking on a gods' behalf, i.e., Universal Objective Purpose, etc.

J21, it appears, you need to read a little more about Bertrand, and the bible.

elpoeta said...

test

elpoeta said...

It's laughable that all the christian fundies that post here say that god has revealed himself to them, and that they subsequently "know" christianity is the truth. Umm....wouldn't that negate god's requirement for faith? Contradiction?

SpaceMonk said...

J21, What do you mean college WAS fun? You're high right now, aren't you?

But seriously Mr Price (or not, hey, if we're doing voices can I be Mr Burns? eh-xcellent...) your god is not love.

Christianity is not really about love, it's not about 'God', it's not even about Jesus resurrection
- it's about Hell.

Fear is the basis for social control - and what bigger fear can you have than Hell?

You are one of those, what I call, "one eyed christians".
Maybe you're one of Bob Schuller's 'Positive Christians'?
Same thing.

You love all the 'love' talk and dance around in the fairy dust of how great god is - yet if you're thinking of bible-god then you're greatly mistaken.

You say it's impossible to prove whether or not god exists, but that doesn't matter. What we CAN prove is that Bible-god doesn't exist.

It all revolves around love?
1 Corinthians gives a famous description of what love is supposed to be like, including this:
1 Corinthians 4:5
“…It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.”

“Keeps no record of wrongs”, it says...

Open your other eye and take a look at Hell.

Hell is not love.
Hell, as described in the bible, is eternal torment.
No getting out once you're there, no mercy, no relief, not even a drop of water to cool your tongue...

Love keeps no record of wrongs?

So, hell doesn't make sense according to it's description in the bible, because it contradicts it's own descriptions of the nature of god.

So the bible doesn't make sense.
So it can't be true.
So its description of god can't be true.
So, bible-god does not really exist.
So christianity is false.

Christianity is nothing without the fear of Hell.

What is all this love crap anyway?
I don't see love in this world, I only see addiction to things that give us a measure of pleasure (hey that sounds like a band name).
It only lasts while it gives us what we want.
I guess that is a description of bible-god's love then, since we are only 'loved' by him as long we give him what he wants.

I think the closest thing I can think of to what you mean by the catch all term 'love' is mercy.
Hell is anything but merciful.

There is no mercy in hell.
A 'god of love' would show mercy don't you think?

I don't see mercy in nature.
I only see mercy in the actions of humans.
It's rare, sure, but it shows that we humans are capable of greater qualities than the bible-god, who throws those he supposedly created in 'love' - to an eternity of torment.

So why should he be worshipped higher than us?

OK, you can go back to smoking dope and watching Simpsons now - those other control factors...

south2003 said...

David: You don’t NEED faith you say.

No I don’t need faith. Either I know Or I don’t know. Either it is or is not. Faith is subjective; faith is slanted, biased, prejudiced, skewed, one-sided, personal, an is individual “feelings”

David: You have faith in more things you realize.

Again, either I know Or I don’t know.

David: You have faith that God did not create the universe.

There is no proof that a god created the universe (in 6 days depending on which religion or god belief) and if you think the universe needed a “magic wand” to get things started then who created your god – one out of 8,000+ other gods. Who and what got it started.

David: You have faith the sun will come up tomorrow.

I know the sun will shine. It did yesterday, the day before, the day before the day before. Therefore, the likelihood of the sun shinning tomorrow is a 100% sure than you giving us proof of your god. I will bet my last dollar on that one.

David: You have faith in evolution (I assume here).

You do not need faith in something that is evident. Let’s look at a simplified meaning to the word evolution:

Development
Growth
Progress
Advancement
Improvement

Take out all your wisdom tooth and tell me if you will die. Remove your appendix and gall balder also. Go ahead and remove your spleen. Why do have them and at the same time can live without them? Did god have some leftover pieces to the puzzle and then just randomly fit them in anywhere, somewhere? …lol

David: You have faith there is no God.

There is absolutely no proof of one…just like the other 8,000+ that man invented. So where is this god hanging out? Have you seen it? Until someone, somewhere can put god in a “bottle” so all can see it objectively, without prejudices, then I will believe.

David: You have faith in a lot of things you can’t prove.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that something does not exist. But somehow you can.

HAH! Here I go again repeating. David, it is impossible to prove a negative. Either it exists or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t exist you can’t prove it….like your god. So where the heck is it/he/she/they? Ahhh, written on a piece of paper you say.

~ Faith is for lazy thinkers~

David said...

South2003,

You said that faith is for lazy thinkers. I don’t agree with you. If you have evidence and/or proof that something exists than it requires no brain power to interpret. The evidence removes the need for thought. If a jury has sees a video tape of someone committing a crime they will convict. No thought required. The jury saw him do it. If a jury, however, is presented with evidence that is vague, for example, conflicting eyewitness accounts or inconclusive forensics, it is up to the jury to use their brains and interpret the evidence. Then they use judgment and render a verdict.

This is no different than what we see in Christianity, or other religions. There is vague evidence that God exists. Events happen that that some would call miracles and some would call coincidence. People say that they have “seen” or “felt” God; some will believe and some will say that the person is imagining it. It is up to the individual to judge based on the evidence, be that evidence concrete (indisputable) or vague (open to interpretation).

(Disclosure for the following paragraph; I am not trying to be hostile with you in the next paragraph. I am merely debating a topic with you.)

Finally, you are correct when you say that you can not prove a negative. You also stated several times that you know there is no God. Can you PROVE that? It is OK to say that you don’t believe in God based on the evidence available. But if you make the statement; “There is no God.” than you must prove it. 500 years ago EVERYONE “KNEW” that the world was flat. Today we “KNOW” that is not true. Just because someone says it does not make it true. I never said I knew God exists, I believe He does based on my interpretation of the available evidence.

Later

SpaceMonk said...

David: "I never said I knew God exists, I believe He does based on my interpretation of the available evidence."

...but how do you know it's bible-god?
If you were raised in Iran or Afghanistan you'd assume it was muslim-god...

David said...

Spacemonk,

I belive, based on what I have read in the Bible and what I have seen with my own eye's, that is is "Bible-God". And I don't know, I belive it is God. I would actually admit that I know it is God. But since I can't "prove" it I will just state that I belive it is God. I really don't know enough about the other religions to make a strong case against your comments. Maybe it is a muslim-god. I don't believe it is and can't imagine ever believing that to be true.

You may be right in saying that if I was born in Afganistan I would be muslim or whatever. I like to think that I would see the holes in the religion and look for something else if I was raised in it. But I can't say for sure.

Later

south2003 said...

David: You said that faith is for lazy thinkers. I don’t agree with you.

How so? faith does not require any thinking or exploring...just accept it.

David: If you have evidence and/or proof that something exists than it requires no brain power to interpret.

Not so. When you don’t have any evidence, then you go looking for it. In your case, you retreated to faith - you stopped looking.

David: The evidence removes the need for thought.

No, faith removes the need for thought. Why? Is written down and don't question or think about it - just accept it.

David: If a jury has sees a video tape of someone committing a crime they will convict. No thought required. The jury saw him do it.

Uh? There are many thoughts that are required: 1) Is the video tape authentic 2)Is it unbias 3)is it without predjudice...

David: If a jury, however, is presented with evidence that is vague, for example, conflicting eyewitness accounts or inconclusive forensics, it is up to the jury to use their brains and interpret the evidence. Then they use judgment and render a verdict.

Same concept with the video tape.

David: This is no different than what we see in Christianity, or other religions. There is vague evidence that God exists.

Your beliefs seems to have a lot of ambiguity wrapped up into it. It is not clear and you said it - “There is vague evidence that god exists.” Therefore, because you are unsure you have faith.

David: Events happen that that some would call miracles and some would call coincidence.

What miracles? Someone getting better? That happens all the time. Child birth? That happens all the time. Now, when I see an amputated arm or a leg grow back, then that’s a miracle.

side note: If you were to cut a lizard’s tail off, eventually, it will grow back. I wonder which deity performs that miracle....hummm.

David: People say that they have “seen” or “felt” God; some will believe and some will say that the person is imagining it. It is up to the individual to judge based on the evidence, be that evidence concrete (indisputable) or vague (open to interpretation).

People say they have seen UFOs ships, aliens and it strange that these beings only appear somewhere out in Nevada and not in a major city like Atlanta and NY. Anyhow, this “seen” or “felt” god is just as incredible as if one were to talk about a UFO scenario or the face of Jesus on a moldy piece of bread

David: (Disclosure for the following paragraph; I am not trying to be hostile with you in the next paragraph. I am merely debating a topic with you.)

I sense no hostility.

David: Finally, you are correct when you say that you can not prove a negative. You also stated several times that you know there is no God. Can you PROVE that? It is OK to say that you don’t believe in God based on the evidence available. But if you make the statement; “There is no God.” than you must prove it.

My statement was that there is not proof of one. In other words, until there is OBJECTIVE proof, then it is just that - a claim. Do you have it?

David: 500 years ago EVERYONE “KNEW” that the world was flat.

500 years ago, the “EVERYONE” were the religious who said the earth was flat

David: Today we “KNOW” that is not true.

The “we KNOW” was Galileo, who said it was not true and the earth is not flat. Not only did he say it was not true, he PROVED it. See the difference David, Galileo did not have “faith” that the earth was not flat, he knew it was not - he had proof. Unlike the clergy, they had faith in a piece of mythical literature that claims the earth is flat By the way, it still claims the earth is flat.

David: Just because someone says it does not make it true.

This is where evidence and proof is required. Hey, follow your own logic. So where is the proof.

David: I never said I knew God exists,...

Why would you believe something if you don’t know if it exists?

David: ...I believe He does based on my interpretation of the available evidence.

What are some of the evidences available to you? Do you mind sharing them? Make sure that they can be peer reviewed and tested.

P.S. Is god a HE?

David said...

To South2003,

I have seen many things that I can only explain as being the Hand of God. I feel like I am caught between a rock and a hard place however; What I call proof I fear you will call mere coincidence. Also, these events were very personal and imortant to me. I am a little weary about posting them for public disection and ridicule. But here are a few.

About 11 years ago a friend of mine was suffering from breathing issues and irregular heartbeat. We went to the doctor and recieved an MRI. The MRI revealed a hole in the wall of heart between two of the chambers. He got a scond MRI a week later to confirm the findings and again the hole was present. The hole was of significant size, I don't remember the actual diameter. WE layed hands on him the day of the second MRI and prayed. The next day he went for a third MRI and the hole was gone.

The Lord has worked through my finances as well. I used to have serious money issue before I started tithing my ten percent. After I started tithing money would apear out of nowhere in my account. Whenever I had a large bill come up like an unexpected like needed a new roof or the furnace blowing up (not litterelly blowing up but you know what I mean) extra money would always appear. I'm talking in the thousands, just enough to cover the bill. Or I would find uncahsed checks in the house.

These things probably just sound like coincidence but they really happened.

I have heard His voice as well. I know what your thinking but when I have been very deep in prayer, seeking a particular path He has revealed it. A lot of the time th einstruction was just "wait". It was always right.

Everytime I have turned my life to His hands He has delivered me from circumstances I couldn't have imagined getting myself out of. He does it everytime.

I know it sounds crazy, stupid, unsubstansiated (that may be spelled wrong), coincidental, and like cliched noncence but it happened. And I am convinced that it is real.

I foresee accusations of scitophrenia and demntia in my neer future here so have at it.

Later

.:webmaster:. said...

Hello David,

I wonder, have you ever seen, or even heard, of someone having a severed limb regrown through prayer?

I would like to see, or even hear, of someone who's had their arms or legs blown off in Iraq, have then magically grow back through the power of your God.

The problem with all the miraculous healing stories, in my opinion, is that every one of the healed conditions was something invisible, something no one could really see or touch, something that could have just normally healed.

Doctors told me that my daughter would be born with Spina Bifida. They ran tests and confirmed that my daughter had this condition, and advised that we might want to consider an abortion. My daughter was not magically healed, but when she was born, she did not have the condition, not a trace of it. The doctors' tests were mistaken.

Again, any regrown limbs out there? How about some regrown teeth?

David said...

Hello South 2003,

Why are the regrown limbs proof that God exists. If someone did grow back a limb would you call that an Act of God, or just a freak medical phenomenon? Would you say "The Lord has done this!" or would you say "This is not God's work. If a lizard can grow a limb back, or an octopus, why not a human?" Would you believe the event or would you rationalize the event? And what if the person was not a follower of Christ? Would it still be a miracle, or would it be just an oddity?

Also, did you pray for your daughters recovery. If you did can you honestly say that it was a bad test or was it Devine intervention? Only you know for sure I guess. Does God have the power to regrow a limb? I think so. Would he grow one back for me? I sure hope so. I don't think I want to test it however.

Signed,
Dave Poole

Jim Arvo said...

David,

I could go through your list of amazing events and explain why I don't believe them (at least not without some solid corroboration), but I'll spare you that. If they are very meaningful to you, then hang onto them and interpret them as you like. You realize that they are *personal* events, and you are not looking to get our "blessing", I presume, so I see no need to try to shred you.

Here's how I look at it. Believers come in essentially two flavors. Those who hold to their own beliefs and respect the right of others to do the same, and those who think everybody ought to think just like them. I have no quarrel with the former; however, I could do without the latter, thank you very much. As long as you are not casting aspersions at those who do not believe your stories at face value and/or do not reach the same conclusions as you, I'm happy to think of you as the first flavor.

I'm not quite sure why you feel the need to share your stories here, given that they are *personal*, and therefore do not carry much weight in terms of evidence, but I'm not going to jump on you for that (I'll let others do that :-).

I know you were bracing for verbal thrashing, so I hope my response did not disappoint you.

.:webmaster:. said...

"If someone did grow back a limb..."

That's the point isn't it -- no one has ever regrown a severed limb, ever.

I guess even a god has its limits.

FatherTyme said...

David, you need to be delivered from crack religion. It's so amazing to me how people will take a bullet for god and jesus, to blatantly lie about money to appear in your bank account for absolutely no reason, sounds like you work for Enron, I mean, how stupid do you really think we are? Money appears, just happens? To lie, to protect your religion, really is a signal to just how psychotic you have allowed yourself to become.

To allow a belief to take over one's mind to render with the intent to make other people think that you've had a supernatural intervention out of all people that exist on the planet Earth, your measley tithes has had some effect or meaning to a universal supreme being that would Hack into your Bank account and deposit monies on your behalf, because you've prayed or have some cockamamie half-brained belief.

Does your god exchange currency in Euros, Pesos, Sheckles, Drachmas,
Shillings, etc.?

David, I think you're really trying to jerk our chain, I really do not think that you believe what you're saying yourself.

Also it is entirely possible that someone can have a hole in their heart and it heal completely on it's own, just like the pellet in the lawyer's heart, that Dick Chenney shot, not uncommon at all, the body will always heal itself with enough surrounding tissue.

David, you're so afraid that your silly childish belief will be proven wrong, which we already have, many times in responce to you.

A belief is a mythical theory that people desire to believe in hopes that it may some day become true by following superstitious rituals
and are willing to give up all common sense and reasoning, in order to believe in the unbelievable.

To fool ones own mind in order to achieve the much sought after promised imaginary reward.

Religions do not appease any God, but religions appease the believer.

When the obvious is unbelievable, then the unobvious is what is true.

People go to church every Sunday to be convinced by the preacher and pay him to tell them that the lie they’re trying to believe is true. David you've bought into the lie of religion, you are a champion of religious fallacy.

David said...

To Jim Avro,

I was asked by south2003 to mention some things so I did. For the record I have no desire to chastise or browbeat anyone into thinking what I do. I do hope that I can help some people out there in my own small way. This site has been an eye-opener in a lot of ways. If all of these testomonies are true than I understand why people would want no part in organized religion or the god they represent. This site has not made me question my faith but has inspired me to render change in my own church. Call it preventative maintnance. I think a lot of Christians are unaware of why people "reaaly" are turning from the church. They do have a self-righteous, "they're just lost" type of attitude.

Later Jim.

To webmaster,

I addressed south2003 when I sould have addressed you, sorry.

I used the word "if" because no one has ever grown an arm back. I know that and you know that. Now that we got the obvious stuff out of the way perhaps you will answer my earlier question; Did you pray for your daughter before she was born? If you don't want to say that's fine. Either way I am glad she turned out to be alright.

ALways a pleasure webmaster,

Dave Poole

David said...

To Ben,

Belief what you will. It doesn't matter to me. I know what happened. Call it a lie, call it a bank error, call it poor math skills. I don't care. Call it what ever you want. I don't recall calling you a liar and really don't appreciate you calling me one. If you think I'm pulling your chain or misrepresenting myself chose not to talk to me or ask the webmaster to remove me.

Dave Poole

Jim Arvo said...

With regard to god regenerating missing limbs, the point is this. The *only* cures that are attributed to god are those that are 1) difficult to diagnose, 2) often psychosomatic, or 3) known to go into spontaneous remission. I have never seen corroborated evidence of *any* malady being cured that would require the suspension of physical laws, such as missing limb being instantaneously restored.

Sure, you can claim that there is a god that can do these things; the point is, it *never* happens. Apparently god only likes to tinker with his creation in such a way that his actions are indistinguishable from commonly observed phenomena; e.g. she sticks to illnesses that can be influenced greatly by one's thinking, or those that can clear up on their own. She never cures a child of Down's syndrome, or Ebola, and she never replaces anything that has been severed from the body.

If those things *did* happen, would it *prove* the existence of god? No, I don't think so. But it would certainly be something to ponder, and I would consider it to be more substantive evidence of divine intervention than anything I have thus far seen. Here are some other things that would get my attention: For one whole day (24 hours), not one child on Earth starves to death, is killed by a land mine, is raped or murdered or done in by some natural disaster or disease, etc. Here's another one: On Christmas day each year, every child suffering from cancer has that disease go into remission. Or how about this: Insects suddenly stop eating the crops in famine-stricken parts of the world, and water fills the wells of drought-stricken lands. Or how about rearranging the stars on one special night to spell out "Peace" in every language of the world. I could go on and on. While I cannot say for sure that any one of these would absolutely prove to me that there is a god, each one would force me to very seriously consider that possibility. But the reality is quite different. What I find instead is a collection of stories that are no better, on the whole, than those invented and passed down in every other culture of the world.

south2003 said...

David,

Is this MRI story in a Medical Journal somewhere? Give me the name of the hospital or lab? Can we speak to the doctors for confirmation? If it happened, there would be a record of it. Can you provide the films of this MRI? Until then.... By the way, the body does heal itself.

Money appears out of nowhere after you paid tithes? Are you saying a deity required you to pay it homage before it helped you out?

whenever you hear voices, it’s a sure sign that your are [ ] fill in the blank. Careful your deity might tell you to kill your unbelieving neighbor or drown your children.

David said...

To south2003

I will ask and see if he still has or has access to the images. As far as the tithes thing (I know this will get hammered) The Lord honors those who obeys His commands. I don't know the exact verse. I am sure someone out there can find it and tell me how I misinterpreted it or mis-spoke it. And for all you unbelievers out there I don't think you have to worry about the "voice" in my head telling me to kill anyone.

FatherTyme said...

No David I prefer to ask God to remove you!

Dear sweet loving and understanding God of the Universe, would you please remove David Poole from this planet? These things I ask thee in Jesus's sweet Holy Name.

Now David should be removed from this planet, because according to David GOd answers all prayers, what a friggen Idiot!

David somehow I know you're still here, I was wondering about the babies born as siamese twins, joined at the head, or babies born with Down Syndrome, Ok according to you, their mother never prayed before they were born.

David you are a liar, worshipping a lie, living in a lie, you are a filthy rotten liar!

Shannon said...

David

“If a jury, however, is presented with evidence that is vague, for example, conflicting eyewitness accounts or inconclusive forensics, it is up to the jury to use their brains and interpret the evidence. Then they use judgment and render a verdict.”

So, how do you suppose Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John would hold up during this type of scrutiny?

south2003 said...

"So, how do you suppose Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John would hold up during this type of scrutiny?"

Yea, they'll fight over who saw jesus first, how many angels were at the tomb, did he appear to 500 or just the deciples...blah blah blah. I think they would be laughed out of the court house or get the books throw at them.

Amy said...

Jeff, like others, I am so sorry for the hypocritical people in your old church, although most know that a lot of churches (along with other sectors) are full of hypicrits. I truly believe that each person has to find what and who they are on their own. Please don't be influenced by anyone in your old church or on this web site. This is a personal journey. Yes, I consider myself a Christian and I go to church on a regular basis. But I think that I have more of a spiritual journey then say the politics of the church. It's a very personal thing and I will not try and sway you one way or the other and I hope that anyone who has any kind of belief will be stong enough in their own beliefs not to encourage anyone to go the way they do. I believe there is a higher force out there and that goodness and forgiveness is essential, it makes MY life more fulfilling. All I ask is that you don't close the book on anything, keep an open mind and see where your path leads you. I wish you all the best on your journey. But most of all I wish you peace and happiness.

south2003 said...

David: I will ask and see if he still has or has access to the images.

Yes, please do provide that along with collaborating statements from the doctors and labs indicating that the hole was closed due to prayer.

David: As far as the tithes thing (I know this will get hammered) The Lord honors those who obeys His commands.

Well it seems many are not been honored. This deity picks and chooses who will eat today and die tomorrow. What I would like to know is which of the commands must one obey to get a new roof, a furnace and for thousands of dollars to appear.

David: I don't know the exact verse. I am sure someone out there can find it and tell me how I misinterpreted it or mis-spoke it.

David, when presenting, be sure to have the backup. It’s not for us to go look for it to see if you misquoted. However, back to reality - for those who did pay tithes religiously like I did, nothing came of it. I got back what I put in when I filed my taxes. Therefore, these are just words on a piece of paper. Many here have never paid a dime to a church or a god and they are doing just fine.

David: And for all you unbelievers out there I don't think you have to worry about the "voice" in my head telling me to kill anyone.

Oh, no one worried about Andrea Yates. Andrea Yates drowned all 5 of her children because they were demon possessed. God told her to do it. According to your bible it commands that you kill unbelievers: Thou shall not suffer a witch to live along with other wonderful ideas on what to do with heretics and the demon possessed. I wonder where Andrea Yates got that concept from.

Anyhow, for the short time that you have been on this forum, you have said 1) you are not a bible scholar; you have 2) posted a verse that claims no man has seen god, but I went searching in other parts of the bible and found it says the opposite; 3) quoted a verse but don’t know where it is and 4) attempted to prove miracles that sounds more like Urban Legends. What does that says to us concerning your credibility?

Dan (Rationalist) said...

I wonder why people like David can always see God working miracles, like a hole on someone's heart disappearing, or money, mysteriously appearing in their bank accounts, after they have given seed offerings to the church, but are totally blind to the millions of people who are suffering and dying from horrible diseases, and the millions more who are victims of injustice, and are being killed and raped.

These people like David who try to promote the theory that there is a loving God watching over mankind, suffer from a severe case of COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. It is generally so severe that they not only fail to hold any opinions as to why there is so much evidence that there is no supreme being watching over his beloved creations. But.

They seem to be completely unable to read or recognize any evidence of it. when they are posting on this web site, it is as if the things like Jim, South, Amy, Ben, Shannon, and webmaster, have given as glaring examples of "God being out to lunch", go totally over his head, and he refocuses back on to some small UN-provable instance where God has decided to prove his omnipotence.

It says that they are desperate to hold onto the lie. The sad thing is, there is really no reason to hold onto the lie. We have the capacity to live healthy happy wholesome lives without it.

How these simpleminded, grinning, hick preachers are able to keep such a hold on people, attests to one fact and one fact only. People WANT a lie to believe in, because they don't want to face reality!
Dan (Rationalist)

David said...

To Ben,

God does answer every prayer. Sometimes he says "yes" and sometimes He says "no". Looks like He said "no" to your prayer. This is the last post I will be addressing to you. You're too hostile, angry, bitter, and hard-hearted.

Talking with you is not productive at all. Nothing is good enough for you. Everything has to be advisarial. If I gave you a $50 bill you would complain because it was green. Nothing but anger in you. You need help my friend. It saddens me.

Dave Poole

freeman said...

David,
John 14:13-14 (NIV) "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

He is supposed to never so NO to those who ask, or is he a liar?!

David said...

To freeman,

John 14:13-14 (NIV) "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

You can ask for "anything in my name". That is true. This means (as is my understanding) that you can ask for anthing that is within His will. If it is not His will that (fill in the blank) He will answer "no".

freeman said...

David,
So if it is in his will, there is NO need for prayer for it will be done. If it is not his will, you have wasted your time praying! Am I right so far?

However, it said that he WILL DO IT!
No room for negotiations. ("You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.")

Another possibility is that your god is not so powerful now is he?!
Remember that it needed help from the other gods (Zeus et al) to create man!
Gen 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Who is the US and who is OUR????

Your god is weak and pathetic!

Dave8 said...

Great insight freeman, perhaps the missing "us", includes gods' mistress, aphrodite :-) That would make Mary a surrogate parent, except instead of being inseminated with sperm, she was inseminated with the whole baby. If god were able to sneeze in a pile of dirt and create Adam and Eve, and they were his prize creation in his and "their" image, then, why look for a surrogate mother to have his own son? Must have been shame, which makes sense, I mean, god(s), did let Jesus get spiked to a wooden cross and die in agony. God must have lost the poker game in heaven and he had to annie up, for the next round.

FatherTyme said...

I really think that David is having a rouse with us, I do not think there can be anyone as cut off from reality after reading some of our responces. If there really are people like David, then he is living proof that humans are devolving back to apes.

Dan (Rationalist) said...

Ben wrote:
"David you are a liar, worshipping a lie, living in a lie, you are a filthy rotten liar!"

This does seem to be a bit harsh, but what I think Ben is trying to do here is save David from a religious cult, and at the same time save the civilized world from another purveyor of mythology, and so, prevent the destruction of civilization, as we know it. Sometimes it takes extreme measures to accomplish extreme ends.
Dan (Rationalist)

freeman said...

Dave8 and Ben,
I always find it ironic that they can pick and choose at will! No integrity what-so-ever!

To me, they bible has to be all or nothing!

All of us freethinkers understand the nothing part because the little shit does not justify the whole!

south2003 said...

David: "You can ask for "anything in my name". That is true. This means (as is my understanding) that you can ask for anthing that is within His will. If it is not His will that (fill in the blank) He will answer "no"."

David, do you know what the word "whatever" means? According to you this "whatever" is very restrictive when it fact it means:

Anything
No matter what
Doesn't matter
Everything

Are you saying that it is not in this deity’s will to see that all children eat a nutritious meal daily? Is it not in its will to make sure that no child is left homeless; Is it in its will to protect all children from going through life been raped and tortured. Well, this deity's will is lacking morals and ethics. On this deity's will list it made sure that you kept your roof, a furnace to keep you warm and thousands of dollars but willed that others should suffer no matter “whatever” they pray and ask for.

I don't know how you have not seen through all those lies. Your religion if you claim it to be the truth, is very disappointing and it lacks ethics. You just gave us a two faced concept of a deity who says one thing but means another. A con David - a used car dealer.

~ I wonder who wrote the book ~

freeman said...

south2003,
There you go again being all pragmatic and nice!

On a side note, you know that it has been over a year since you (you were the first) to welcome me here!

Time sure does fly when you get to bash a fundy! lol

freeman said...

Webmaster,
Have you ever noticed that after leaving a comment, at the top of the blogger page it says that your comment has been "saved"?

Since switching to the new format, I have found it amusing!

south2003 said...

south2003,
There you go again being all pragmatic and nice!

Lol

side note: Ben, you are way out of line. *tsk *tsk

Yes, I do remember when you first came on..Non comformist, Brigid, Melisa, ryan, Timothy, etc..the old timers.

I do remember when you said my name is now freeman...I am a free man!

freeman said...

south2003
I am touched!

David said...

To south2003,

Do you really think God would give people whatever they wanted. Be real. Would you give your children whatever they wanted. I believe the God in heaven knows what is best for us, just as you know what is best for your children. And yes I know that no one here believes in God so save it.

And no, I do not believe that God wants children to starve. He created 6 billion people who could do something about. The Earth produces enough food for all. What have you done to solve the problem? How many meals have you given up to feed someone else. I can admit that I do not do a lot apart from a small “save the children” donation (that may or may not be the correct charity. The bill comes every year and I just send the check, and the minimum amount at that).

But this isn’t about you, right. It is about all those “so called Christians” who aren’t doing anything. It is easier to blame God and talk about it on the internet while you finish off another bag of “Fritos”. This is not a direct attack at you but rather all those who speak of the ills of this world while do nothing about it. All the while blaming God.

And to Dan (rationalist),

Thanks, I don’t believe you are correct but I do appreciate it.

Dave Poole

J21 said...

Hey guys/girls! Everyone have a good weekend? Mine was pretty good. I see alot of new posts in here too. Gimme a moment to catch up.....

Alright! More good stuff. More outright slander and bitterness sprinkled in here and there, but more good stuff nonetheless. I’ll reply to all the pertinent people who prevailed to post upon this most provocative of pages. Forsooth! Ahem…

To Dan ze rationalist. Hi! I’d have to say that your post was the most interesting (along with Dave8’s). I guess that the statement you refer to is pure rumination as long as one assumes there is no God, or if one is discussing a God not of the Jewish/Christian faith. I was referring to such, and so used said characteristics in my dialogue.

To your statement about questioning God being perfect and loving versus the nature of man I must delve into the deep and murky waters of free will. So, moving back to my earlier assertions of what God is, He won’t force anyone to do something they don’t want to do. I can just hear the hornets nest now!
Think of man over the ages, committing massive atrocities in the name of God/Country/Bloodlust/Money/etc. Now think of God as a kind of uber powerful parent (a father, if you will. Insert eye roll here). If you have a child, would you force your child to say “I love you dad”, or would you rather the child tell you that on its own? Would you rather your child said “I love you”, or would you rather force it out of them? So if God exists (and I believe He does) then I think He would be a loving God, not an uncaring or evil God. If He were uncaring then we probably wouldn’t be discussing His existence because He would have never made Himself known. If He were evil we would all be toast (except those He deemed worthy to live). Any of that make sense? I’m asking those who are sincerely trying to understand my viewpoint, not those who wish I didn’t exist.

I’m touched that no one cares. And I’m not talking about “touched” in a good way. I mean, is that the general consensus in this site? No one cares to hear a differing p.o.v? I’m interested in a little light dialogue about our different view points. Doesn’t mean I hate any of you or think you’re idiots or anything. Then again, I’m not sure that debating with those who frequent this site would be of any use. Not to say that what you all have to say is nonsense or intellectual inbreeding. But I’m just now pondering why. Why devote time that I will never get back to those who are already firm in their beliefs and will not move one iota? Hmmm… Bah! That’s too much of a “cup half empty” philosophy. Lets move on.

Yeah, anyone who kills in Christ’s name isn’t really running on all cylinders, I’d say. I think, in my own limited way, that those who did had ulterior motives up the wazoo. A true follower of Christ, and I’m talking one who has studied the word and applied it to their lives in a thoughtful and sincere manner, would know what’s what. You can say that “they” all said they were true followers, and perhaps some of them were. I think the biggest stereotype we get labeled with is that we all think we’re perfect, or that a Christian has to be perfect. Yeah…… that’s incorrect.

As much as I disagree with Bush (on almost everything) he is our elected (debatable) leader. I may grumble and get flack for it, but I get to cause I voted in the last election.

“We can publicly call our president a simpleminded born again evangelical Christian, and all he can do is say we are wrong. He can't even exclude us from holding a public office on the grounds that we are heathens. He must by law afford us the same rights and privileges as his bible toting friends.” Preach it brotha! I couldn’t have said it better. (By the by, I detest censorship of any kind. Makes me grumpy. Not that anyone mentioned it, but I thought of it when I thought of Republicans). I also do not wish to live in a theocracy. (I hear that the Muslim religion is fast becoming the predominant one in our country, if it isn’t already. Just sayin.) Variety is a spice I enjoy quite a bit. It’s one of our country’s best assets.

“So call yourself anything you want, but I doubt that you will find many followers of mysticism here.”

I don’t really know what you were talking about there. So ah… hmmmm…. Yeah.

“The message is the result of a messenger's subjective views. To make a subjective view, more transferable to others, perhaps the subjective messenger can provide something that can be more objectively viewed, and not absolutely objectively viewed, like some natural evidence.” That’s courtesy of Dave8. Dave, I like cheese. And more importantly I like how many times you used the words subjective and objective. My main point in the blurb you referenced was the main message of Christianity. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Its all about the love man.

“Well, and that appears to be the same results as DNA between humanity and chimps.” So human DNA is even closer? I’m no science major. Never have been never will be. So the differences between one person and another is even slimmer? Hm.

And is my statement that we all need basically the same things really “so grossly out of whack”? I’m trying to point out that we as humans are so much alike it’s a pity that we waste so much time concentrating on the things that make us different from each other than the things we have in common. And I don’t think that the things I pointed out couldn’t be viewed in this light. Are you saying you don’t need love? Or family? Some way to support yourself? I’m just trying to find some middle ground here, and you seem to be trying to find some way to quantify or qualify what each of us needs in a way that separates and brings division. Or maybe I’m way off base here.

“So, J21, I suppose if you don't respond to this post, you are a true believer of the bible... unless you didn't get the message, for all of those corrupt messengers...” That’s just harsh man. Wicked harsh. So harsh I almost like it! But just because I don’t respond immediately doesn’t mean anything. I love responding to people who have a genuine interest in an open dialogue, not people who mindlessly (yet tactfully) try to obliterate someone else’s view. But thanks for the kind words. (My sarcasmotrone is registering off the charts!!!)

And thanks for the patronizing tone of the next paragraph. I love it when people talk down to me, don’t you? “Betrand, believed that we can have personal purpose, but to jump to a Universal Purpose is tomfoolery... well, unless a subjective human wants to assume the character of an Objective god, and make statements about what a god's Purpose would be for humanity... but then, J21, that makes the person god themselves doesn't it...”

Sure, unless there was some way to find out what God’s Purpose for our lives was. If there were only some book out there that stated His Purpose…

”In short, Purpose doesn't exist, we see from a subjective view on reality, and thus have self/personal purpose which provides fulfillment in our lives...”

I’d say that our own purpose is what has led to so much pain and anguish in our and everyone else’s lives. A Human purpose- get all you can get in this life; step on those in your way, but preserve your genetic material if you can. A Divine Purpose- “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. And love your neighbor as yourself.” Its just really hard to love those guys sometimes, you know? Sure I’m “spouting” from the Bible. Yet if God exists, and I believe He does, wouldn’t He, in all His power and knowledge, make certain that He got His word out to those who would listen and follow Him? Sputter with contempt if you will.

Your reference to Isaiah 55:8 seems a little misplaced. Hear me out before you get all flustered. The thoughts of some Christians and authors WOULD indeed be subjective were they not already grounded in God’s word (they are not just pulling them out of their back sides, they are referring to the Bible). But since Rick and others do refer to God’s word they are, ultimately, referring to God’s Purpose. And Isaiah 55:8 is referring to the way God works in the physical world. Think of it as a parent telling a child they have to go to bed at a certain time. The child doesn’t want to, they want to stay up and have fun. Screw what the parent wants! But the parent knows that the child needs rest because tomorrow is going to be a hard day a school, followed by soccer practice, followed by supper at Chuckey cheeses, followed by homework. Yet the child only sees that the parent is sending them to bed. They don’t understand why. But they should listen to the parent regardless. And further on in the same chapter it says “You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace;” thus illustrating that though we may not understand God’s ways or reasons for why He does what He does, we will be better off listening to Him if we do.

“J21, it appears, you need to read a little more about Bertrand, and the bible.”

Thanks Dave8. I haven’t read that chapter in a while. Man that was a long posting. I’ve gotta keep these things smaller in the future. MUCH SMALLER!!!!! Talk to you later!

south2003 said...

David: Do you really think God would give people whatever they wanted.

Whatever I ask for..remember unless your god is not capable of doing the do.

David: Be real. Would you give your children whatever they wanted.

Yes, if it is in my power to do so, then I would! If I could feed every last one of those starving children I would. If you claim your deity is all powerful then tell it to get up off its fat ass and do something.

David: I believe the God in heaven knows what is best for us, just as you know what is best for your children.

Really? Your god knows best when a child is tortured and rapped. What’s behind all of that David? It loves to watch. If I knew that my child was starving and being rapped and I had the power to feed and protect it, I would not think twice but to do what is right. So what your are saying is that your god checks a " his will" list and decides -ooops not today, today you starve - oops not today, today you suffer from the hands of your abuser. Maybe the little ones might get lucky the next go around - the next generation. God might get a clue.

David: And yes I know that no one here believes in God so save it.

Stop generalizing, not all here are atheists. The god you are selling is a sadistic bastard and Your god concept does not deseve to be worshiped. The Christian god concept is like an abusive father and it has not virtues.

David: And no, I do not believe that God wants children to starve.

Then why are they starving?

David: He created 6 billion people who could do something about.

Is that a scapegoat David? Try again. The all powerful being bids me do his dirty work and clean up the mess. Don’t think so!

side note: If god created all 6 billion people, then what is reason for having sex to procreate?

The Earth produces enough food for all.

Really? Does this include the desert, the wasteland, and the barren regions?

What have you done to solve the problem? How many meals have you given up to feed someone else. I can admit that I do not do a lot apart from a small “save the children” donation (that may or may not be the correct charity. The bill comes every year and I just send the check, and the minimum amount at that).

I have two children and there have been many nights I have gone to bed hungry so they can eat, so save your self-righteous attitude with me. I have volunteer with the mentally ill and made sure they had a place to sleep every single night. Let me ask you though - Why should I do it David. In your bible, it rained manna from the sky and quail came from the rocks. Can your god do that again?

But this isn’t about you, right. It is about all those “so called Christians” who aren’t doing anything.

David, it is not about you. It is about your mythology. It is about all mythologies that has reeked into humanity and claim to be the truth. Sad that so many feel for it.

It is easier to blame God and talk about it on the internet while you finish off another bag of “Fritos”.

LoL. David, you claimed your god hooked you up with all these things when you needed them the most. I want to see the same exact philosophy used towards starving children, the homeless and those who are rapped and tortured. Do you think that those Necessities are needed the most? If your god’s best is just about you and a handful of self proclaimed “I’m being taken care of when I needed it the most Christians," then your god can take it and shoved up the rear. It doesn’t impress me.

This is not a direct attack at you but rather all those who speak of the ills of this world while do nothing about it. All the while blaming God.

You see David, the ills of this world that made you cringe when mentioned is because of your mythology. It doesn’t teach strength but weakness it does not teach self-esteem but the lack thereof. It has kept mankind in the Dark for far too long but in time, your book will become just that… a book.

~Teach a man to pray for food and he starves, teach a man to fish and he feeds a village~

Zondy said...

This was my experience.

I was raised an agnostic. There was a family tragedy when I was 19. I got involved with a charismatic style church, high on emotion low on theology. I went through various phases but started to realise I didn’t agree with their theology plus the reality of the effort needed to live a pious ‘Christian life’ was starting to be very burdensome. I had gotten involved with a rather raunchy church girl and there was little difference between our behaviour and those people outside of the church. All in all it just didn’t work, I had taken a theology (if you could call it that) course on a full time basis with the church but that seem to make me realise that this wasn’t the place I wanted to be. Whilst on this Christian trip I was a pretty annoying basher of the Bible. Started to drive my friends nuts.

I broke away gradually until I felt complete freedom to believe what I wanted. I enjoyed the things young men enjoy within reason (sex, drugs and rock n roll). I married someone from a non-Christian culture, started to be reasonably successful and had a child. I admit I still enjoyed a bit of religious research but now it was about disproving what I had believed previously. I enjoyed controversy and was ever ready to dissuade an unwary new convert of the dangers of their new found faith.

Now 19 years after my first pseudo-Christian experience I am cruising through life and without notice or warning I am confronted by what I can only call God. Some of course will say it is psychosomatic, something I hadn’t dealt with perhaps raising its head. I had no visions, no dreams, no voices. But a very real experience without Church or other Christian involvement. I had a great fear of the Creator and over a number of days what could only be described as “repentance and belief” with many tears. I am convinced that this is what the New Testament and in particular the apostle Paul calls “the power of God.” Sorry to quote but “And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power”. I can understand why people can’t/don’t believe but it is almost impossible without an experience of this “power” to understand why people do believe. I know that sounds very very very convenient.

I am not out of line with main stream Christianity when I say that no matter what type of intellectual ascent you give to the Bible you can’t know Christ unless He is revealed to you. I know people will want to rip me to shreds for saying that, perhaps even a few Christians. Here’s just one more quote, this is when Jesus asks His disciples who they think He is, “Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.”

I’m not trying to ram anything down anyone’s throat or prove the existence of God, I have neither the will or intellect to be an apologist. But this phenomenon has changed my life.

south2003 said...

Great Story Zondy! (rolling eyes)

Explain to me the conception and in (semen)ation of your god man and then we can go from there.


Thanks

David said...

To Zondy,

Thanks for posting. Good to hear anothe Christian out there.

To south2003,

South2003:Whatever I ask for..remember unless your god is not capable of doing the do. What is this? Are we in grade school now? If people asked God to give them a nuclear weapon or pray for people to be killed would he do that? Doesn't make sence to me. Would he give everyone on Earth a billon dollors if they asked for it? NO. The entire world economy would crumble. If He fulfilled every selfish request the world would destroy itself. If God gave everybody everthing they wanted we would all be like gods. Human beings are too selfish , arrogant and stupid to handle that power.

David: Be real. Would you give your children whatever they wanted.

South2003: Yes, if it is in my power to do so, then I would!

No matter what they asked for? That's something. You would let your 8 year old stay up all night if he wanted to? You would let hom/her not go to school, or do drugs? If your childs sake you may want to rethink your position there.

South2003: Is that a scapegoat David? Try again. The all powerful being bids me do his dirty work and clean up the mess. Don’t think so!

Why shouldn't we clean up the mess? We made it.

God does have ALL the answers, and if we would bother to ask Him He would give us the answers.

Dave Poole

.:webmaster:. said...

"God does have ALL the answers, and if we would bother to ask Him He would give us the answers"

Davey,

Please pray that all the children of the world — you know, the one's Jesus loves — red and yellow, black and white — the one's precious in His sight — would have something to eat tonight. Surely that's not asking too much of the magical god-man who multiplies fish and bread at will.

Oh, nevermind, the prayer was already answered — the answer was no. Sorry kids, no fish tonight.

David said...

To webmaster,

Ba-zing! You got me.

passerby said...

Why do most Christians lie? Or is it a case of cognitive dissonance?

This link is specifically for you, David. Please learn something new.

http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm

Cheers

David said...

To passerby,

How do Christians lie? Or more specifically, how did I lie? I read this page that you refered me to and have no response to give you. This "psychological phenomenon" puts people of faith or anyone with a strong view of a particular topic in a no win situation. If somebody investigates a new theory or idea and decides it doesn't make sense for them then they are labeled with "Cognitive Dissonance" because they can't accept reallity (or what somebody or some group has defined as reallity). And if they accept the new idea or theory then their faith is obviously debunct and out the window.

I do not think this "psychological phenomenon" does aplly to me but then again, perhaps I am suffering from......


Cognitive Dissonance

Zondy said...

south2003 said...
Great Story Zondy! (rolling eyes)

Explain to me the conception and in (semen)ation of your god man and then we can go from there.

Well south2003 what would you have me do? See a psychiatrist? Ignore the experience? Pretend it didn't happen? Spend some time in a temple chanting? Maybe Benny Hinn could help me if I could afford it.(eyes fixed at the screen)

I'm a theological lightweight, what is it you want explained? And where do we go from there?

I'm buying out of this if someone says "Why doesn't God do this or that?" I mean what kind of an argument is that. Bush is the President of the USA, because he decides not to do certain things doesn't mean he isn't really President. How can I or anyone else explain why or why not God does things.

David said...

To Zondy,

Your right. And I have probably been wasting my time trying to justify why God does or does not do things.

Dave Poole

passerby said...

David,
Most Christians have no idea their religion has been plagiarized. Their pastors, such as Lee Strobel, lie when they present evidence. Christians also present information while knowingly suppressing contradicting statements. If you want a list of Lee's lies, just google it, or find the link on this site. Christian Priests/Pastors will never mention the following facts:

The Christmas holiday is not orignal; it's a Pagan holiday celebrating Winter Solstice and the birth of primeval gods.

The Christian Easter holiday is not original; it celebrates the vernal equinox and the rebirth of life that happens in the spring. David, what's the etymology of the word Easter?

Jesus is not original; he's a manifestation of early god myths(Krishna, Horus, Mithra, Osiris, Dionysus, etc).

The only concept that is original in Christianity is the concept of an eternal hell.


David, this is cognitive dissonance because Christians suppress this new information in light of the old information. The old information gives the person comfort...denial is bliss, it gives them the warm fuzzy feeling that the little man is the sky is watching over them. The brainwashing that occurred over the years, especially the formative years as a youth is hard to overcome.

I consider this lying because the revered priests/pastors in society will never reveal these facts(I know equivocation would be a better word instead of lying).



Now David, how do you, as a critically thinking adult, believe animals can talk? Do you know what a fable is David? You believe that a snake, a bush, and a donkey spoke with humans. Do you know how ludicrous it is to actually believe this happened? David, you believe that a person lived in a whale for 3days and 3nights. David, do you know how ludricrous this is?

There's a plethora of mythological stories in the Bible, and the only way to believe them is to be brainwashed.


David, the religion you believe is determined by space and time.

Cheers

David said...

To passerby,

I still think the playing field is not level. If you dismiss what I claim or believe you label that as an intellectual, informed decision. If I dismiss what you claim and believe I am labeled as too scared and comfortable in my delusion to handle the reallities of the real world.

And I don't see the corrilation between Christmas and the winter solstice. Just because the two happen at the same time. That's like saying the Canadian's stole Boxing day from Christianity because it occures on December 26th. (at this point I am hoping that boxing day doesn't have anything to do with Christmas, lest I look foolish, and to most of you I already do)

Dave Poole

Zondy said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
passerby said...

Like I said David, you are the poster boy for Cognitive Dissonance.

It's amazing how you *only* chose the christmas correlation. You are in denial David...face it.



Now David, do you really believe a Horny Ghost stuck his magic wand up a virgin girl's dress, then unloaded his holy load to produce a man god? To take a verse from your pornographic holy book, called the Bible, in Ezekiel 23:20. I'm sure this Horny ghost had a big wand and his "issue" was like that of a horse. And brainwashed Christians give this pornographic material to their kids to read.

Cheers

Zondy said...

Hi ya Passerby.
I have read at least some of the evidence you speak of, particularly regarding borrowed or plagiarized religious beliefs. I found the Pythagoreans of particular interest at the time. I have also read various Nag Hammadi docs. I don't think the case is as strong as you seem to think certainly nothing that the Church should hide from addressing.

In regards to Old Testament writings, Jonah in a big fish etc, I must admit it perplexes me. Perhaps a better understanding of the intent of the document would help, maybe it's not literal. But then again tell someone a thousand years ago that we'd be communicating like this through a wire and the the claims would be pretty ludicrous too. My verdict, without a deeper knowledge of the event, the way the events were portrayed and the reasons for noting the them, I am not in a position to deny the writings but won’t assert a literal truth at this point in time either.

I don't surpress new info. Just as a side note, have you done as much reading of the New Testament and the supporting evidence as you have the evidence that stands against it?

Chiao

freeman said...

David,

Christmas and the Winter Solstice do not magically happen at the same time of the year! You truely are naive. Shakes one's head!

Zondy,
If anything is not literal in the bible, then you MUST question EVERYTHING!!!!

Passerby,
How have ya been? Some people just don't get it. Completely sad!

Zondy said...

Point taken Freeman but somethings are cleary not to be taken literally. I don't see many Christians cutting their arms off or plucking out their eyes. So this concept of truth wrapped in a parrabolic event isn't new. You must be able to go beyond black and white. Your next question might be "so what's literal and what's not?" Here's my cop-out, that's too long to answer.

freeman said...

Zondy,
Just perhaps the entire bible is just one long parable! Stories to guide, admonish and scare the shit out of the bronze aged men!

One would do better living according to Buddha.

passerby said...

Zondy,
BINGO!!!!!!! You said, "maybe it's not literal." Now, you're thinking.


It's all about the stories...the embellishment of mythological stories and the legends of yesteryear. To believe them as true is ludicrous. There are a few good stories---just as there are a few good stories in the Quran. To believe them both as true is Ludicrous.


Zondy, you do know that men *voted* by committee, on what books were to become the New Testament. You do know the author(s) of the Gospels are all anonymous, right? It could've been 1-2 people who wrote all of them, or maybe 100 people could've written them...nobody knows. There are 9 different endings after Mark 16:8, nobody knows the real ending---just as nobody knows who wrote much of the bible. The political influences of the day most likely partook in which ending is used.



Zondy, you do know the Noah's Ark story is a plagiarized version of the Epic of Gilgamesh from Mesopotamia, right? I wonder how many Christian's know this fact, you may know?


Why isn't the real 10th commandment in the court houses. I'm mean, if a perfect god scribed the perfect laws for us to abide by, why can't I boil a goat in its mother's milk....crazy, isn't it?


Cheers

passerby said...

Hey Freeman,
I'm doing well. I hope you are too. I agree with you on Buddhism---it's better than Islam or Christianity. Of course the speaking Buddha at birth is a crackup.


I have to hit the sack...lights out. Take care

Cheers

Zondy said...

I am well aware of the various views of authorship and well it wasn't really a vote about what went into the NT canon or not. And that's an opinion about the authorship being anonymous.

Why do you people think you know more than everyone else? This info is out there. We don't all hide behind a Bible. Why can't someone assess the evidence and choose Christianity? Why is that so hard to take? You choose to believe certain hypothesis about the canon and I choose others. There will also be an issue of belief, that is unavoidable.

It can't all really be explained away so easily. I came to my own conclusion. Hey I shouldn't even be here right I'm not an Ex-Christian.

Cheers

south2003 said...

"Why isn't the real 10th commandment in the court houses. I'm mean, if a perfect god scribed the perfect laws for us to abide by, why can't I boil a goat in its mother's milk....crazy, isn't it?"

Before the Chrisitans say it isn't so, read:

Exd 20 - The first set
Exd 34 - The second set (Thus says god to Moses, "I will write these again after you broke the first set of tables")

Lets also post these in the court houses and the school rooms

Ten Punishments

1. Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

2. Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

3. Exodus 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

4. Exodus 21:15: He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

5. Exodus 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

6. Exodus 22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

7. Leviticus 20:13: If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.

8. Leviticus 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

9. Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

10. Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

south2003 said...

David,

These are the highlights from my last post. Can you please address them or don’t waste my time. Speaking about grade school, what you posted – I could not even get a rebuttal going, but, let’s try it again. Thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said: Whatever I ask for..remember unless your god is not capable of doing the do.

You said: What is this? Are we in grade school now?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said: Yes, if it is in my power to do so, then I would! If I could feed every last one of those starving children I would. If you claim your deity is all powerful, tell it to get up off its fat ass and do something.

You said: If people asked God to give them a nuclear weapon or pray for people to kill would he do that?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said: Really? Your god knows best when a child is tortured and rapped. What’s behind all of that David? It loves to watch. If I knew that my child was starving and being rapped and I had the power to feed and protect it, I would not think twice but to do what is right. So what your are saying is that your god checks a " his will" list and decides -ooops not today, today you starve - oops not today, today you suffer from the hands of your abuser. Maybe the little ones might get lucky the next go around - the next generation. God might get a clue.

You said: Nothing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said: Stop generalizing, not all here are atheists. The god you are selling is a sadistic bastard and Your god concept does not deserve to be worshiped. The Christian god concept is like an abusive father and it has not virtues.

You said: Nothing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said: David, you claimed your god hooked you up with all these things when you needed them the most. I want to see the same exact philosophy used towards starving children, the homeless and those who are rapped and tortured. Do you think that those Necessities are needed the most? If your god’s best is just about you and a handful of self proclaimed “I’m being taken care of when I needed it the most Christians," then your god can take it and shoved up the rear. It doesn’t impress me.

You said: Doesn’t make sence to me. Would he give everyone on Earth a billion dollors if they asked for it? If God gave everybody everything they wanted we would be like gods. No matter what they asked for? That’s something. You would let your 8 year old stay up all night if he wanted to? You would let hom/her not go to school, or do drugs? If your childs sake you may want o to rethink your position there. Human beings are too selfish, arrogant and stupid to handle power
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said: I have two children and there have been many nights I have gone to bed hungry so they can eat, so save your self-righteous attitude with me. I have volunteer with the mentally ill and made sure they had a place to sleep every single night. Let me ask you though - Why should I do it David. In your bible, it rained manna from the sky and quail came from the rocks. Can your god do that again?

You said: Nothing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said: You see David, the ills of this world that made you cringe when mentioned is because of your mythology. It doesn’t teach strength but weakness it does not teach self-esteem but the lack thereof. It has kept mankind in the Dark for far too long but in time, your book will become just that… a book.

You said: Nothing

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am so convinced that I am communicating with a person who is absolutely brainwashed with his cult (and dense also).

I guess giving a child food is not reasonable request or shelter or being protected from being rapped, tortured and molested. Why would anyone pay homage to this god concept with the realization that it is a vicious? Why would anyone equate a human parent to such a being knowing darn well that they would not treat their children in that manner (if they had to power to do otherwise)?

Thank goodness this deity is all make belief. *phew*

David said...

To Zondy and J21,

Good luck with these guys man. It took me about a week but I have come to realize this web site is a total waste of time.

To the rest,

After a week looking at this site I have decided to call it quits. 90% of the people here have no interest in debate but seem to be interested only in slandering what others believe and simple name calling. I thought we were past jounior high. Also, I rad the webmasters ex-testomony yesterday and realized that I do in fact suffer from a lot of the same aflictions that the Christians from his past suffered with. Particulrly the amount of time I spend in the word and researching what I believe. I am not saying I don't believe, quite the opposite. But I do need to devote more time to study, certanly more time than I devote to this website.

Anyway, good luck with your site here. I hope those who are seeking answers to lifes questions find them.

Jim Arvo said...

Thanks a bunch Dave. I sincerely hope that you will begin to ask some penetrating questions about your own religion one day, or at least seriously consider those that we have raised for you. But, either way, enjoy the one life you have.

Dan (Rationalist) said...

David,
What you believe or don't believe is important only to your quality of life, and I mean this life, here and now. Living each day thinking you are somehow special because you profess to a belief in a certain theology, is insane. It is no different from the schizophrenic who hears voices in his head, and talks back to them.

Believing a certain piece of religious dogma is not going to get you a free pass out of hell, just because God is pleased that you believe it.

You will get a free pass out of hell, because Hell is a silly, illogical, pagan concept, that exists only in the minds of intellectually underdeveloped people, and you should have seen through it by the time you were 6.

If God wanted perfect intelligent beings around him to worship him, he would have created them in the first place. The concept of heaven is ridiculous because any environment that was different from this one here on earth would be inhospitable to us. Would you want to spend an eternity with a bunch of Christian fundamentalists, to whom every pleasurable thing is a sin?

The concept of Satan is so patently dumb, it isn't even worth promulgating, other than to say: "Why would an all knowing, all powerful, loving God allow Satan to exist?" Nuff said!
Dan (Rationalist)

south2003 said...

David,

Yes, quiet a waste of time for you especially when we questioned your religion and its concepts. I don’t think you would have minded so much if we were talking about the horrors of Islam, would you?

I have not seen at anytime during these discussions, indications that you were interesting in debating us. All I came away with were excuses for this book - your Bronze Age mythological cult, some bible verses and fuzzy warm comforts - and to remind you, most of us has spent over 10, 20, 30 and some 45 yrs in.

When you are done with your sadistic bloodthirsty god beliefs, then come back and tell us about it - hopefully.

Take care

FatherTyme said...

Bye Saint David, I smelled a fundy rat a week ago and it was you, christians smell like musty socks and pee. You wanted us to worship you and your silly beliefs, like they do for you at your church, and you never answered any of our questions to you. You say that you are 27 years old but, I believe that you must be mentally challenged in some way, that is the main reason so many people find religion to be so appealing. Not only that but we caught you in several lies, to begin with you said that you gave up going to church, then you said that you attended church, as posted on your blog. People that insist in believing in a religion, are no smarter than the people that wrote the bible, over 2000 years ago.

Plus all christians are perpetual liars, because their belief is a lie and this gives them also a license to tell lies, and then run back to jesus to be forgiven, untill the next lie.

David you'll be back some day and apologize to us all for your being so blind sighted and stuborn, we've seen it happen quite frequently. We mean no harm to you, but we have carefully weighed all the evidence for years, and have been convinced for years that all religions and the bible is all a total fraud and a hoax. But if you prefer to believe that bibilical nonsense is true and you find personal comfort in believing in it then, no amount of evidence or any amount of words will convince you otherwise. Best of luck to you in the future, maybe you'll come around to your senses some day, we'll keep our fingers crossed. TC

Zondy said...

South2003, Ben and Others

The Old Testament is a fairly large collection of writings and it's very easy to sit back and take pot shots. Explain this, explain that. With all due respect to Dave I don't think he or I are in a position to explain these things. However there is an enormous body of work available and a lot of it for free on the net. Crosswalk.com has some serious commentaries available, Matthew Henry and the like, try those.

Can anyone tell me what the world was like at the time Moses gave the law? I’d say it was a pretty harsh place, child sacrifice, the temple prostitution trade, slaves that were literally worked to death. Many would argue that the Torah was an advancement.

Many here seem to argue from the presupposition that if there is a God, He should just fix everything. What kind of logic is that? Is there enough food in the world? If there is who is that is not feeding starving children? And who is raping helpless women and children? Lets pray everyone gets fed tonight, now because everyone isn’t fed tonight that is proof positive that God doesn’t exist.

I am not from the USA so I am not continually subjected to the spurious bile of the TV evangelists and multimillion Armani suited ministries seeded by ‘faith contributions’. Unfortunately this is a poor representation of the gospel message and has very little if any resemblance to the New Testament Church. However in discrediting Christian efforts are people here so blind to ignore Christian contribution to the world. I am taking a wild stab in the dark here but could anyone seriously contend that Christians have not been responsible for the greatest philanthropic advances in modern times. Unions, hospitals, feeding the hungry, caring for the poor. Does anyone have any complaints about Mother Theresa? And there are lots of unknown Mother Theresas out there. Poor weak minded foolish Mother Theresa, the world would have been far better off if she had of woken up to herself early on, freed herself of such delusion, what a better place it would have been for so many people if she had not the love of Christ. “Let us touch the dying, the poor, the lonely and the unwanted according to the graces we have received and let us not be ashamed or slow to do the humble work.” Mother T.

Now you may say to me, yes there are a few good examples but what about the atrocities committed in the name of religion. The answer is exactly that they were committed in the “name” of religion under the cloak of being Christian and there are still many wolves in sheep’s clothing. You all seem to some extent familiar with the New Testament can somebody show me where followers of Christ are directed to kill in His name, it’s the exact opposite in the early Church. Bless those that curse you, do good to those that persecute you, do good to everyone when an occasion arises. This was one of the great testimonies of the first and second century Christians, that they bless when cursed and go to their grisly end at the hands of their persecutors praying for them. How can intellect stand against that? Paul in his Corinthian epistle says “God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and the weak things of this world to confound the mighty.”

Humanities problems are self inflicted. Greed, lust, power are the condition of human nature. In slamming anyone that believes in Christianity are you saying that societies such as the ex-USSR got it right in trying to eliminate any belief in the supernatural. Loving God and loving your neighbour as yourself is not the reason for societies ills, it’s the exact antithesis that is the cause for human sorrow. Please explain the philosophy that we should adopt to fix the problem then?

Ben: You criticise David’s intellect and respond with “christians smell like musty socks and pee”, now I’m really convinced you must be right. Ben is lying wrong? If so why is it wrong? Is it wrong to inflict pain on others if it makes me feel good? Would it be valid to assert my right to do evil to others for pleasure, possession, power or glory? Why don’t you give your intellect a real workout and explain to us why modern man is much more intelligent then people a few thousand years ago.

Now that is a long and contentious post. Should I go now?

passerby said...

David,
You said, "I thought we were past jounior high."

We have graduated from junior High, but you remain there, scared as a little child, cowering in fear from silly superstitions.


Take care of yourself, but do come back when you mentally graduate from Junior High.

Cheers

passerby said...

Zondy,
You said, "I am well aware of the various views of authorship and well it wasn't really a vote about what went into the NT canon or not. And that's an opinion about the authorship being anonymous."

It's NOT an opinion that the Gospels are anonymous, it's a fact. Please provide evidence that these documents were actually written by MMLJ? That's why preachers say, "and this is the story according to Mark." They do not say, "this is the story by Mark," or "this is the story written by Mark," or "this is the story from Mark." The Gospels are ALL anonymous, and men, not any god partook in the process of piecing them together. Zondy, you have faith in the anonymous authors who wrote the stories and legends in the Bible.



Zondy, name one historian, outside the buy-bull, who verfies Jesus existence *during* his lifetime....um, that's right there aren't any. For a guy who healed the sick, fed the poor, and performed a multitude of amazing miracles, the silence is certainly deafening.



Now Zondy, a few posts ago, you said you couldn't believe in the whale story...I'm glad you haven't totally lost your mind. Some christians actually try to reason this story could've happened...sad, isn't it? You didn't mention the same about talking snakes, donkeys and a bush. Do you actually believe this is true?

Ciao

FatherTyme said...

Zondy=ZealotFundy

Yes you should go now, we all know by the smell that you and David's M.O. is to come on here to convert.

You both have no intention to listen to or read throughly any of our anti-christian posts, plus you've both already made up your minds that no amount of words or reasoning is going to change your mind, so what is your point in waisting your useless time here on an ex-christian website sight.

We've all elequently explained many times why religion and a belief in an imaginary god is a farce, but you and David have decided to be a champion for your imaginary bible beliefs, because you're both so afraid and scared by preachers and the veil threat of an imaginary hell, plus your mind had been drug around with a promise of a heavenly reward. This just shows to us all here how gullible and naive people will allow themselves to be, and willing to have the wool pulled over their eyes for that hidden promise, a promise that was written down in a book by Men, ignorant men that heard voices while on OPIUM and cannabis, but you will say prove it, just read the bible, it would take someone completely high on drugs or completely insane, ever heard of frontal-lobe trauma? People with frontal-lobe trauma hear voices and think that they are inspired by god, and try to explain how the universe was created. So should you go? I do not think you or David have anything intelligent to contribute to this forum.

Zondy said...

What's up Ben feeling a bit threatened? Why don't you want to answer the questions? Please tell me is lying wrong and why? Why shouldn't I do evil to others if it makes me feel good, I can intellectually justify that. What is it to do evil? Tell me why people 2000 years ago were not as intelligent as say people like yourself today, Roman government, Greek philosophy, mathematics?

You never know Ben I may have read more critiques of the scriptures than you.

I have no intention of trying to convert you or anyone else here. I can't convert people, no amount of intellectual wrestling can do that.

I found the site by chance and read a few posts and joined in.

.:webmaster:. said...

David, if you had read the site purpose and disclaimer, you would have realized immediately that this is not a "debate" site.

"This forum exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge to Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their invisible friend."

Keep studying the Bible. It was deep study of the Bible that led me here.

.:webmaster:. said...

So Zondy, are you saying that if you were not a Christian you would harm other people, that you would steal, kill, rape, etc., just because you are not a Christian?

Another question: what henious sins have you committed that justice would demand an eternity of horrific torture as a proper punishment?

Zondy said...

Passerby,
I have heard and or read the general criticisms of authorship and the defence of authorship, age, discrepancies and the like. The apologists are best to take up that debate suffice to say that the standard critical arguments have been addressed by the traditionalists and I am comfortable with the answers.

I may be groping in the dark a little but was Jerusalem the centre of the Roman empire? Were historians really concerned about what happened in a town like Capernaum? Do you think that a cult that was an abomination to Jews would have been referenced. The Jews liked “blotting out”.

Yes, much of our faith is based on the Apostolic Testimony and I believe that the Church has held onto that testimony. Which ancient book has more ancient copies and fragments? (I’m out on a limb here because that’s a guess) There’s no real silence about it. This whole site is dedicated to those that disbelieve. The carpenter from Nazareth has changed the course of human history whatever you think of Him, real or imaginary.

You misquote me Passerby, I never said I didn’t believe in any story I merely offered a few thoughts and reserved my judgement. So it is possible that I have lost my entire mind.

Webmaster, I don’t take any offence to your site although some of the more colour posts do get personal. I have debated though, I think I came in on the middle of a debate and didn’t do a lot of touring.

Zondy said...

Webmaster, no I am clearly not saying that. But I don't doubt that given a certain upbringing, education, trauma, pressure and circumstances that yes I and everyone else left to our own devices would be capable of most crimes.

My question concerns where Ben gets an idea of good and evil from (since he accuses all Christians of lying - an evil act I gather) or if they exist and if the intellect is the greatest part of a human then if I justify "evil" can I act it out prepared or unprepared for the consequences or must I join the moral herd of atheists.

Is it a psychosis that turns people like John Newton, a slave trader 180 degrees into a saint that writes Amazing Grace. Wasn't Newton OK when he was an atheist, intellectually free and slave trading? Christianity doesn't work? Or is it only needed for the real "bad" people in society?

Lets keep my sins out of this.
Divine justice is a lengthy subject.

I have become an addict of the blog, (put that on the list). Webmaster without trying to look like I'm piking out of this, I should leave because as you have said this is not a site for debate, I am however interested in your comments.

FatherTyme said...

Zondy, You asked if you should stay or should you go, and I said you should go, so scram you snot nosed fundy punk!!

.:webmaster:. said...

Zondy,

"Let's keep my sins out of this," you said.

So does that mean you do believe that an eternity of horrific torturous agony is a just punishment for your the sins you've committed in your life? My point with the question is obvious.

People have changed their behaviors after becoming Muslims, Buddhists, and by joining TM. Realizing a change is needed is not all that uncommon, and the means of obtaining a change is not confined to adopting one of the many versions of Christianity.

Anything that does harm to another would generally be thought of as a bad thing. Japan is only 1% Christian, yet their crime rate is negligible in comparison to all the "Christian" nations of the world. Morality and respect for our fellow humans is NOT the singular possession of religionists. In fact, usually, history has shown that the more religious the culture, the more apt that culture is treat those "outside the faith" with the utmost cruelty.

Regardless of all that, most of us here just don't believe in the nonsense of Christianity. There have been many good people who have done good things that have called themselves Christian.

So?

There have been many wicked people who have done heinous things that call themselves Christian.

Again — I say, so?

Christianity is just one of many cults in the world, nothing more, nothing less.

The religion of ancient Egypt lasted for 5000 years and greatly changed the world. Even today the effects of that culture are felt, remembered and studied.

Christianity has changed the world, you're right. So has Islam, Buddhism, Democracy, Communism, and a host of other isms and factions. Ideas change the world — duh.

However, when Christian RULED the world, for 1000 years, the fruit of that time was aptly named the Dark Ages.

Think about it.

David said...

To webmaster,

Last post, I promise. Anyway, why do those who have left the Christian faith need encouraging. Why have this place to congregate. If you all are right then why do you need a suport group for each other. Reading the other posts left by non-believers it is obvious that they "believe" they have made the right choice. But if you are so confident in those choices then why do you need to have aother rally around you. Is it to keep them in line? To convince them they they made the "right choice"? It sounds to me like all you guys spend more time trying to convince yourselves that you made the right choice then you do others.

And without Christians posting on this site for you guys to attack the site this site would last about a week before everyone left.

Stay strong Zondy.

FatherTyme said...

Zondy the Fundy said:
Why don’t you give your intellect a real workout and explain to us why modern man is much more intelligent then people a few thousand years ago.

Can anyone be this naive and stupid in 2006? apparently so, Zondy the brainwashed Fundy

People of today 2006, happen to know:

That the world is round, not square.
That the Sun is the center of our solar system and does not revolve around the Earth.
That the Earth is not the center of the Universe.
That other galaxies similar to our own exists in outer space.
That gravity is not from witches or demons pulling things from hell.
That diseases are not caused by demon possession or god's judgement.
That lightning and thunderstorms are not caused by the wrath of an angry god.
That a god does not need a blood sacrifice for atonement of sins.
That babies are not a miracle from god's secret vault.
That virgins need not to worry about getting pregnant by a holy ghost.
We know that germs and bateria exist.
We know that god and jesus do not live in the clouds above.
We have never seen a talking donkey or talking snake or a talking bush.
The major drug trade in America is not opium.
We have never seen or felt, a god, or a miracle, or blessings, Angels, Saints, ghosts, spirit, demons, devils, Satan, jesus, prophet, heaven or hell.
We know that volcano's and imaginary gods do not require a human sacrifice.
We know that electricity can be harnessed and controlled for practical use.
People can fly in airplanes.
Automobiles are faster than camels.

But you do not believe in anything unless a fat ass farting preacher says the bible is the truth and you're stupid enough to believe it.

Zondy you're useless, go away!

Jim Arvo said...

David,

There are no support groups for people who no longer believe in trickle-down economics, or in low-carb diets, or in UFOs, or countless other beliefs (ill-founded or not), but there *are* support groups for those who leave religion. And there are some very simple reason for this. Religions have a way of influencing every aspect of one's life, including one's social circles. When one leaves a religion, one often leaves friendships, sometimes even a marriage, behind as well. Discovering that something that pervaded your thinking is actually false can be difficult to cope with emotionally, even if you are certain that you made the right choice in leaving it behind. It takes time to work through all the implications, and to reframe old points of view. Does that make sense to you?

I'm somewhat disappointed in you for asking such a question, because the answer is to be found in hundreds of posts here, in almost every thread. Instead of looking for an answer, it seems you chose to insinuate something about us as a community. Rather than seeing us as people who earnestly work toward discovering what is TRUE, as opposed to what we might wish to be true, and confronting the inevitable difficulties in taking that hard road, you see us as being the opposite, and you make unsavory implications.

David, you can believe what you want. Go off now, and be happy in your beliefs. This is a place to face up to difficult realities, and the folks who come here often could use a friendly nod from others who have been there. If you want to see a system of beliefs that could not possibly continue to exist without continually being propped up by others, and protected by a brick silo of propaganda and misinformation, then I suggest you look into your church down the street. That's not what goes on here.

passerby said...

Zondy,
Let me actually see you admit to this outright.


Answer the question:
Do you believe a snake, a donkey and a bush spoke with humans?



Now Zondy, you know the religion you believe is bullshit, that's why you used equivicol language when this issue came up. You never admitted to actually believing these ludicrous stories because your know it's not true. Come on Zondy, be honest.

As the great Sam Kinison would say, "SAY IT, SAY IT!!!!!"


How does it feel to be a slave to an imaginary belief?

Oh, and speaking of slaves, your piece of shit God(both of them, I left out the horny ghost) never denounced the institution of slavery as immoral. The bible makes a valid case for the proper use of slaves.

ciao

Zondy said...

Ben, Passerby, Webmaster & David

I was almost gone but can’t resist just one more post.

Ben and Passerby: You just can't help but resort to name calling and taunts. How old are you guys?

Ben: Build a decent argument not a list. “Cars are faster than camels” – not over sand dunes they wouldn’t be (ha ha). Where does the mathematics originate from which we build planes? How about the astronomy? Does technological advancement mean that we are more intelligent? And how about those knuckle-heads Pythagoras, Plato, Socrates, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, etc, etc, etc, how could their incipient minds be compared to someone as great as you, a man of 2006?

Or the layman’s argument: If humanity is getting smarter how come it doesn’t act that way? Lets put aside war and famine, how about this kind of thing - a woman failed to realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, sued and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

What happened to the answer RE: good and evil, lies, right and wrong?

Zondy you're useless, go away! After giving me such an intellectual battering you still want me to leave?

Passerby: I’d feel more of a fool if I didn’t believe. Why is it so repugnant to this group that a person has faith? And not someone you even have to spend time with, someone completely anonymous on the other side of the world.

Webmaster: Whilst radical change is peripheral evidence of a cause it is not the point I make. Regardless of the intent the website tends to be filled with spite and loathing towards anybody with faith, we are fools and liars at best it seems. My question is simple was Mother Theresa one of those evil liars, can you honestly say it would have been far better off for this world if she had not been a “slave to an imaginary belief”. Likewise I added John Newton, was he better off a slave trader? You could not infer that your website has a kind of take it or leave it religious attitude.

Sin and punishment: If I stand before a judge after committing an act that gave me total fulfilment and pleasure should I be sentenced and punished? “My point with the question is obvious.”

I have spent a long time in Japan funny that you bring that up I see from your bio you have spent time there too. There is no such thing as a Christian nation. I have openly admitted previously that the veil of religion has been used by unscrupulous people just as Marxism and Confucianism. Further Christianity has never ruled the world for any period.

The point to those “many good people who have done good things that have called themselves Christian” is that those people will attest that that is the reason for them doing the many good things. I bring that up not as a proof of Christianity but because your web-ies can’t admit that is the case.

But you gotta admit world changing (especially to that extent) is pretty good for someone that didn’t exist.

I’d have to question your 5000 year figure on the Egyptians, there might be an old stone baboon but that’s not a theology. And I know you might say that Christianity draws its roots from these religions but I’d dispute that too. People still study it few practice it.

David: Drop me an email mezondy@gmail.com share your faith.

Who has said in his heart? “There is no God”

FatherTyme said...

And how about those knuckle-heads Pythagoras, Plato, Socrates, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, etc, etc, etc, how could their incipient minds be compared to someone as great as you, a man of 2006?

Which chapter did these fine gentlemen contribute to the bible? Some how I missed that.

I called you a fundy, does that insult you? because you is one.

The fool sayeth that his heart speaks.

If god is real to you, why do you need faith?

Faith has no use in confirmed belief.

.:webmaster:. said...

Zondy,

There is no such thing as a Christian nation? Do you think there is such a thing as an Islamic nation?

Guess not.

Anyway, in answer to your question about John Newton and Mother Theresa, I'd say that living in a fantasy world may be more desirable on many levels, but it's still just a fantasy. As far as Mother Theresa goes, she had no problem with people being Buddhists, Muslims, whatever -- she was basically a great humanitarian.

And ah, Christianity did rule the western world for about 1000 years.

However, if you prefer your fantasy world, then by all means, pursue it! You are entitled to wear rose colored glasses and see devils and angels behind every bush — that is your right.

Now, this is our little corner of the Internet. There are thousands of Christian websites where people can discuss the merits of Christianity, and I don't go to a single one of them. I would consider it the ultimate rudeness to bully my way into someone's church, or someone's religious website, and start spouting my views. That's part of the reason why I set up this website. By way of analogy: you can do lots of things in your own house you'd never do in someone else's.

But all this is probably lost on you, because in your mind, no one has a right to believe anything but your version of your religion. Those who hold a heretical view of your religion — heretical being defined as anyone with a different understanding of various and sundry doctrines from you — are not real Christians. Your mind is locked firmly into place by a thousand modern Christian clichés. This is something obvious to those outside your narrow worldview, but you are blind to it.

Someday, just for your own education, study the development of theological thought from the first centuries of Christianity until now. Don't just presuppose that everything you now believe was always accepted as true, because it wasn't. Christianity has mutated and developed — dare I say evolved? — just like every other religion on the planet. It was not birthed fully grown, and many of the doctrines you hold dear were invented long after the anonymous writers of the New Testament were dead. Some of the most popular doctrines — the Rapture, the 7 years of Satan ruling the world, Dispensationalism in general — are less than 150 years old!

Believe it or not Zondy, you have not said one thing most of us haven't heard hundreds of times before. You've contributed no depth, no insight, no revelation, nothing but a parroting of every typical modern evangelical-lite doctrine heard daily on radio and television.

Unless you are afraid to do so, I really recommend you read some material written by other than evangelical-lite authors. I've read hundreds of Christian books, commentaries, histories, systematic theologies, etc., from the centuries preceding our own. Of course I've studied the Bible. Oh yes, I memorized much of it and read it through several times a year for nearly 3 decades.

When I finally got serious about my studies into the development of theological thought and belief, well, that's when the crust started to be rubbed off my tightly closed eyes.

Your eyes may never open, but one thing you definitely lack and need to acquire, is an understanding and tolerance for those who think your religion is bunk. Your mindset that all who disagree with you are fools, headed to hell, is not significantly different from the Islamic extremist. If you had been born in any one of the Christian nations a few hundred years ago, you'd be seeing people like me executed for the heinous crime of thinking freely.

.:webmaster:. said...

"If I stand before a judge after committing an act that gave me total fulfilment and pleasure should I be sentenced and punished? 'My point with the question is obvious.'"

Apparently my point wasn't obvious.

Here's my point: The punishment should fit the crime. Eternal retributive torture seems to be a mite excessive for temporal "sins." It seems especially sadistic in light of the fact that when this god set up the whole scenario — man, woman, Garden of Eden, apple, etc. — he was well aware that most of humanity would be granted eternal life in hell.

So, again, what heinous sins have you committed that warrant horrific torture for all eternity?

I know you won't list any, because there aren't any.

God's ways are not our ways, right? Well I'd expect that a god's ways would not be our ways, but I'd also expect that a god's ways would be superior to our ways. Apparently modern man's sense of justice is a bit superior to your god's sense of justice.

Well, I suppose people understood justice differently during the Bronze Age, so the gods they invented would of course reflect their own primitive views.

passerby said...

Zondy said, "Ben and Passerby: You just can't help but resort to name calling and taunts. How old are you guys?"

You believe in childish, absolutely absurd, totally ludicrous stories and mythology as being true, but you ask us how old we are....now that's very funny.



Zondy, when you and David get together don't forget to say this prayer.

"Oh great imaginary big-sky-daddy, please help these people believe in the same fantasy as David and I. Please make them believe in all the ludicrous things we believe."


Ciao

south2003 said...

Hey,

I thought these funny fundies were leaving.

FatherTyme said...

Zondy, can one turn to the bible for instructions on how to build an Automobile, or Plane, or Cruise Ship, or Nuclear Power PLant?

According to you, you can, another fundy bites the dust...lol

Zondy said...

Webmaster, Ben & Passerby,

I have been accused of being intolerant, where do you see that in anything I have said? Correction I am intolerant without apology when it comes to the Benny Hinns of this world. And who did I try to convert?

It appears that this site is filled with intolerant people. Those that absolutely assert that if a Christian reads the same books or studies as deeply as the learned found here then they must abandon their faith. One must come to the same conclusion or be ridiculed and taunted. That is the very definition of intolerance.

Webmaster: I have read from Tertullian, Polycarp, Mathetes, Origen and the list goes on. I have looked at the development of theology, Trinitarian doctrine, Romanism, Calvinism, the early Creeds, the progression to inerrancy and so on. Are you the worlds foremost authority on theology? Can’t anyone pursue these arguments and come to a different conclusion? What amazing arrogance to think that you are the only person that could have read such literature.

Some people don’t have the intellectual vigour and tenacity of others, but they rest in their faith allowing life’s trials and tribulations to be the proofs of belief.

I was on the other side of the fence for a long time. As I mentioned I joined a Church group, became very annoying (you guys probably think I still am), then I got to the stage where my researched took me beyond what I could believe. 19 years later I am converted, I have had an experience that I can’t deny. It is no longer an intellectual ascent to doctrine. I can understand now why Paul can’t stay with mere theological arguments, why he suddenly bursts forth with joy and ecstasy praising God. So call it what you will but I can relate to the Christian experience throughout history.

“Believe it or not” Webmaster I am not cliché–ing and although my arguments may not be new to you they are not something I have copied.

“Obviously you don’t get it” The punishment for crime is in direct relationship to the law, whether or not the criminal agrees with what the law should be. A criminal may take complete pleasure in their crimes and not fathom why the law treats a certain crime a certain way. Getting caned for producing graffiti sounds tough to me but does that mean that if I get caught doing it in Singapore that I’ll get let off with a warning? Just because something goes beyond what I am comfortable believing doesn’t mean it is make-believe.

BTW Webmaster, just out of interest what type of a Church did you go to for 30 years? Or was there a few? And what was your theological stance before your enlightened period occurred?

Is the intellect the beginning and the end? Would the answer to that be the root of our division?

Ben: Did I say those “fine gentlemen” were contributors to the Bible? I would just like you to explain why you are smarter than them because you live in 2006. And still no attempt to define a lie, good and evil or why I can’t do evil to another if I believe it is good.

Passerby: Get over talking animals. I don’t have an opinion on it yet. My friend once had a parrot that talked, does that count?

Allow me one final irritation, but it does illustrate my point best. You all know the story. Nic, a theological heavy weight, comes to the Carpenter, probably expecting a theological discourse or debate, nop, the Carpenter goes straight to the point, “you must be born anew”, because no matter what you think you know without regeneration you can’t see God.

Over and out.

Zondy said...

Webmaster
The Christian nation and world domination thing, you know exactly what I mean.

It's Saturday here now. Hope you guys have a good weekend.

south2003 said...

Zondy said: "I have been accused of being intolerant, where do you see that in anything I have said? Correction I am intolerant without apology when it comes to the Benny Hinns of this world. And who did I try to convert?"

You came into our home uninvited, ELEPHANT, and took a crap, ELEPHANT, and then you expect us to sit back and smell your shit.

How is that for being intolerant!!!

south2003 said...

Zondy said: "Can anyone tell me what the world was like at the time Moses gave the law?

"I can, I can!" said little Johnny(raising hand). Those laws were written for the primitives. Now this is the year 2006 and still many, many Christians are intolerant, small-minded, narrow-minded and fanatical towards homosexuals and unbelievers."

.:webmaster:. said...

"'Believe it or not' Webmaster I am not cliché–ing and although my arguments may not be new to you they are not something I have copied."

So you created all these things you are saying? They are new revelation?

I could have sworn they were just the same old parroting I've heard a thousand times.

Hmm.

.:webmaster:. said...

As to my testimony, it is posted as a link on every single page of this website.

Feel free to read it.

Jim Arvo said...

Zondy said "It appears that this site is filled with intolerant people. Those that absolutely assert that if a Christian reads the same books or studies as deeply as the learned found here then they must abandon their faith. One must come to the same conclusion or be ridiculed and taunted. That is the very definition of intolerance."

No, it's the very definition of a "straw man". I, and many others here, constantly encourage the believers who (for some reason) visit this site to read more broadly; for example, to read scholarly works that are critical of Christianity along side all the apologetics. In my opinion, that is a *prerequisite* for gaining a more realistic view. Now, if one does so, and actually grasps the form and substance of the arguments, THEN one will be in a position to evaluate them. Does it mean that such a person MUST then reach the same conclusions as the rest of us? No, it does not. But, without having done so, can you or anybody else conclude that they will not reach the same conclusion as the rest of us? Again, the answer is "no".

Zondy: "“Obviously you don’t get it” The punishment for crime is in direct relationship to the law, whether or not the criminal agrees with what the law should be."

That's a red herring. Yes, laws are intended to apply to all, EVEN to those who disagree with them. Nobody is trying to say otherwise. The question is whether eternal retributive punishment is *just* according to *any* interpretation we can give to the notion of justice. Even if the answer is "no" (which I feel is the correct answer), I will concede that an all-powerful god is perfectly capable of authoring and enforcing any law he/she/it sees fit. However, if those laws are incompatible with our notions of justice, then we've no basis for calling them "just", do we? They are simply laws because "god" deems them so, and that's that.

Zondy: "...no matter what you think you know without regeneration you can’t see God."

But one can be "regenerated" in any number of directions, to see any number of gods. How do you know that smoking paiute isn't the ticket to seeing the true god(s)? How do you know that you should not be "regenerating" yourself to be a Hindu, to worship the one true god Krishna? You see, your concept of "regeneration" seems to be nothing more than a synonym for changing your beliefs. Of course, you take that to mean "seeing" your particular deity, but your religion is only one of many. Tell me know you know it's the right one before you "regenerate" yourself to believe that it is.

Zondy said...

Jim Arvo,
Thank you for your most reasonable post.

One could easily misinterpret comments like the ones below as being a little more hostile than putting up a straw man.

"You came into our home uninvited, ELEPHANT, and took a crap, ELEPHANT, and then you expect us to sit back and smell your shit."

"Oh, and speaking of slaves, your piece of shit God(both of them, I left out the horny ghost) never denounced the institution of slavery as immoral."

"But you do not believe in anything unless a fat ass farting preacher says the bible is the truth and you're stupid enough to believe it."

"Zondy you're useless, go away"

Well the list could go on.

I think I have done my *prerequisite* studies. I probably would have joined in on this site many years ago (if I had of known about it) after leaving a Christian-Club and reasoned along side of you.

My change was so unexpected and radical that I can't believe regeneration is something that I chose to do and/or participated in. It really is "All of Grace".

Could it be a psychosis? Yes one could argue that but there are no other signs of a psychosis.

Justice and punishment: That's not a red herring. Crucifixion and burning people alive are beyond my notion of justice but they exist.
"is *just* according to *any* interpretation we can give to the notion of justice" - within your cultural constraints. Everyone here seems to be from the USA.

Can't anyone here say, you have looked at the evidence and you are a Christian, we can cope with that?

Zondy said...

Webmaster,
Sorry could you give me the link. I searched around but couldn't find what church/s you were involved with. Or where your theology stood.
Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

Left hand column, under "Introductory Stuff." It says "Webmaster's Testimony."

Jim Arvo said...

Zondy said "One could easily misinterpret comments like the ones below as being a little more hostile than putting up a straw man..."

I was addressing you. What other people have said does not change the fact that the argument you were attacking was fictitious (or, at best, only held by an unspecified minority).

Zondy: "I think I have done my *prerequisite* studies. I probably would have joined in on this site many years ago (if I had of known about it) after leaving a Christian-Club and reasoned along side of you."

I have no idea how extensively you've studied, so I'll just take your word on that for now. Since you attribute your conversion to a "radical" experience, it would seem that your change of heart was independent of reason anyway. In fact, you seem to be saying that if you were to base your assessment on reason alone, you would be agreeing with us. Is that a fair statement?

If that is the case, is there any point in discussing beliefs? If you claim that the missing ingredient is some kind of mystical experience, which cannot be experienced second-hand (i.e. via description from you), and we do not share that experience, should we not simply bid each other adieu? Is there some reason we should just take your word for it?

Zondy: "Justice and punishment: That's not a red herring."

Maybe straw man is a better term. Call it what you will. You were arguing as though we claimed that disagreeing with a law was sufficient to grounds to break it. As nobody was making that claim, it was a waste of time to make that case.

Zondy: "Crucifixion and burning people alive are beyond my notion of justice but they exist. 'is *just* according to *any* interpretation we can give to the notion of justice' - within your cultural constraints. Everyone here seems to be from the USA."

Okay, let's nail it down to one society, then. How about yours? In YOUR society, is it just to torture somebody? Under what conditions would it be justified to subject somebody to, say, 50 years of continual torture?

Zondy: "Can't anyone here say, you have looked at the evidence and you are a Christian, we can cope with that?"

I'll do you one better than that. I don't care if you've looked at the evidence. You can believe in Christianity for any old reason you want to and it's okay with me. I still disagree with you, of course, and I will tell you exactly *why* I disagree with you, but you are entitled to believe whatever you want. You are also entitled to not listen to a word I say. When it stops being okay with me is when believers try to force their views on others via threats, accusations, and misinformation.

Dave8 said...

Zondy: "Can't anyone here say, you have looked at the evidence and you are a Christian, we can cope with that?"

Zondy, if you are studied as you have suggested in the past, then you of course understand there are varying levels of "evidence" which people use to support their belief(s).

tr.v. ev·i·denced, ev·i·denc·ing, ev·i·denc·es - "To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove. To support by testimony; attest."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evidence

Claiming a label "christian" without imposing ones belief on others, is the mark of someone who is tolerant. I personally don't have a problem with someone declaring themselves a "fill in the blank". However, when dialoging with others, and using the word "evidence" as support to persuade, its deceptive unless one portrays the level or threshold they are willing to accept as "evidence". Many religionists were taught "god", and their only evidence is the "testament" of another, hence, the "Old Testament" and "New Testament" of which many anonymous writers attested to as evidenciary.

On that thought, "any" attesting can be accepted as evidence, any "person" can state that they don't believe in a "god", or the factual basis of the "bible", and their statement is just as truthfully honest as one who "claims" or attests to the bibles' divine writings, etc. Its called hearsay...

Hearsay, is not accepted in many countries' courts of law, as the testaments are non-verifiable... basically, nothing but rumor. Furthermore, justice could not be served, in any sane and honest court of law without the need for "evidence", beyond a "reasonable" doubt. God, fails that test, as proposed via hearsay by some of humanity.

You seemed to have suggested earlier that lying is not acceptable, but go on to ask others "why" lying is "wrong".

Deception.

Either cognizantly, or ignorantly, in either case, is wrong. Why, because perception is reality, and when someone attempts to warp another persons' reality, they are infringing on another persons' right to mental freedom, and peace.

Hearsay, i.e., the bible as godly inspired or the actual written words of a god, etc., is nothing less than deception, when presented as evidence, stronger than hearsay. The tragedy, many on this site, seem to convey, is there are those who were provided "hearsay", as the "stronger" evidence, for which to build ones' life.

Zondy: "Can't anyone here say, you have looked at the evidence and you are a Christian, we can cope with that?"

Zondy, hearsay, can't be looked at, critiqued, analyzed, or empirically vetted with rigorous tests. Hearsay, is an attestment from another person, without empirical evidence. Therefore, I propose this statement...

"you have listened or read, what others have presented to you as fact, and although there is zero empirical evidence for their statements, you accepted their statements as "fact", and chose to accept the label "christian"." And, yes, I can cope with honesty. How about you?

SpaceMonk said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
SpaceMonk said...

However this post has not.

Zondy,
I was looking for your answer to the Webmasters question, "what heinous sins have you committed that warrant horrific torture for all eternity?"
and all I could find was this:

"The punishment for crime is in direct relationship to the law, whether or not the criminal agrees with what the law should be. A criminal may take complete pleasure in their crimes and not fathom why the law treats a certain crime a certain way. ...Just because something goes beyond what I am comfortable believing doesn’t mean it is make-believe."

- but why would someone feeling this way then turn around and worship those law makers?

The only thing that gives the law makers any 'right' to execute their laws is the fact that they usually have the power to enforce their chosen punishments.

Might is not Right.

Are you saying we should all just accept the bullying of the super-tyrant just because he is tougher than us?

Without laws there would be no 'crime' (that's from the bible).

Any Law is an invention, except the Laws of Nature (physics, etc.)
If god is all-powerful he can break his law to show mercy.

Unrelenting merciless torture for eternity can only be of an absolute malevolence.
That is not worthy of worship.

So it may be that bible-god is real and that I am going to hell for eternity (lol), but that doesn't make it right.
I don't deserve it - nobody does.

God is, and always has been, perfect isn't he?
Then why couldn't he be satisfied with that, instead of creating us in the first place, knowing the fate most of us would be condemned to?
Why? - because he is absolutely malevolent.

- either that or he doesn't exist... at least not the bible-god.

Maybe you can answer my question to David?
Not all of us here are atheist (the original post in this thread is by a Deist). You don’t have to ignore your ‘supernatural’ experiences to be welcome here, but how do they match up to the god of merciless malevolence in the bible – the mastermind of eternal hellfire?

How do you know what you experienced was bible-god?
If you were born and raised in Afghanistan or Iran you would assume it to be muslim-god just the same...

Just a believer said...

Hello, I found this site searching something on the internet. I am sorry that the OP had such a bad time with "Christians".. I am sorry that they represented the real Jesus in a bad way so as to turn you off. The only thing I can say to you is that God is real and to look to Him, not to people who can be such bad examples. Some people are not perfect but we're trying to be a better person. Some folk on this site dont even believe in God, and others find the concept of God to be silliness. But God is real, Jesus is real, and you will have a hard time proving He is not real. Try to prove God is not real. You cannot. But if you would try and seek God, He is more powerful than your unbelief. Jesus Christ is the way to follow. Dont' believe me, talk to God your own self. He will make Himself real to you if you seek Him sincerely, just by talking to Him.. Dont worry, He will hear you. I myself can testify that I thought God was not interested in my little puny life. But when I realized He is, then I accepted Him into my heart and life, and God is real to me as the hand that is typing this.

Warnepiece said...

Hey Just a Believer, I took some time a while ago to sincerely seek God, waited for over an hour, but as usually he didn’t respond. However, I distinctly heard my own inner voice, the only “voice” I’ve been able to trust all these years, say “Tell Just a Believer he is living a lie, to shut up and go away!” Seemed pretty clear to me!

boomSLANG said...

Just a believer,

Do us a favor---can you please use some original material?... I mean, even if it, also, ends up being a bunch of subjective religio-tripe, at least it'll be something we haven't heard a bazillion times before. Well...maybe.

Anonymous said...

Justabeliever, I think one prerequiste would be to read this entire thread before you dump your load of ridiculous stupid nonsense here, what a jerk!!

A_Believer2 said...

Ha! I have a very good proof that there is God... can you give me proof that there is NO GOD? You cannot do it!

The reason you cannot understand God is that you are in darkness. You cant see anything while in darkness, but flip the light on and you will see. Same with God.

You are like a blind person who cant see and telling me there is no 100 foot tall building in front of you,, just coz you cant see it. But just keep walking and BAM! that wall will let you know its there.. Same like God. Just keep walking in darkness and BAM one day it'll hit ya,,,

Im making an example, I am not wishing a wall would hit you, but you have to trust in things you cant see, just like that blind person has to trust that there are things he or she cant see.

But ya know, Jesus Christ was on the earth a while ago. He claimed to be the Son of God. And even the super religious people seeing and hearing him RIGHT THERE,,, did not believe him. so its understandable that you have no Jesus to visually see as you would another person.

But I guarantee you, even though you think its crazy, there still is a God, and even if you dont believe in Him, just like you may not believe in the laws of gravity, doesn't mean its not reality.

If you have any questions, I'll be happy to help you. Read the Bible, it has every answer for everything you need.

one day we will meet Jesus, right now while you are living on the earth, He will be your Savior, if you ask him to be, but if you dont choose that, He will sadly have to be your judge. Jesus came to seek and save those people who are lost.. He wants everyone to enjoy his kingdom and life on earth, and to be with you as your best friend. What have you got to lose? But if you go on in life, without God, you might skate by, but one day you're going to need Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Q. believers say that Jesus is God. i.e. that they are one and the same. What Biblical verses are there to support this claim. Far as i can see this claim that Jesus is God is a pagan and not a Christian based claim. reply to deltagold.da@hotmail.co.uk thanx

Archived Testimonial Pageviews this week: