From Bible-thumper to a Deist
sent in by Jeff
Well, I've been reading through this site for some time now and I figured I might as well put up my anti-testimony — if not for anything else but my own sort of closure to Christianity.
I was born and raised in a "uber-church" one of those gigantic churches that doesn't claim any denomination and people have to meet in small groups to even get any sort of community going.
Anyway, I was a Bible-thumper from the get go. I remember being in 5th grade, bringing my bible and trying to convert people; I even had my own little hellfire speeches. This pretty much went on throughout my entire school years — I was always known as the Jesus freak or that crazy Jesus guy.
This all changed though, and ironically enough, it happened when i joined the army. Once I went through basic training I was almost forced to meet with people of other views and to get along with them. I couldnt just start preaching to somebody, telling them their going to hell, because these were the people watching my back, and I respected them.
Well, after I got out of the army I was already everything my former Christian self hated: I was an alcoholic, I was a womanizer, cursed like a sailor, the whole bit. Well I figured it was time to get back to my roots and try to be the Christian man I used to be, but something unexpected happened.
When I came back to the church I used to go to, just about everyone shunned me. I guess somehow my old drinking and casual sex stories had gotten back to them, andhey didnt like it one bit. I was all but told to leave by the people there.
This was when the doubts seriously began. I tried several churches in hopes that maybe it was just my old church that was like this, but for the most part I had to face it: for some reason these people that I used to call friends had heard that I was living in sin and now wanted nothing to do with me.
So I started to research my own faith, thanks in most to this site. But I was as impartial as I could be, reading this site and then going to Christian sites to see what they had to say. When it all came down to it I have come to believe that Christianity is nothing more than a country club, as long as you believe what they believe and show up to the meetings, everyone loves you. But, the second you start to waiver, you're gone and hated.
This was my starting reason to leave the faith — everything else just sort of fell in place after that. Since then Ive become a Deist, but the thing is I'm not complety stuck on it; I'm still studying other things, as I am sort of new at this. For 22yrs I did nothing but study the Bible, so now it's strange to be learning about other faiths deemed Satanic by the Christian culture (hehe).
Well, thats my speil. I hope you enjoyed it. It's not the most awesome anti-testimony ever, but hope it helps somebody in some way.
Well, I've been reading through this site for some time now and I figured I might as well put up my anti-testimony — if not for anything else but my own sort of closure to Christianity.
I was born and raised in a "uber-church" one of those gigantic churches that doesn't claim any denomination and people have to meet in small groups to even get any sort of community going.
Anyway, I was a Bible-thumper from the get go. I remember being in 5th grade, bringing my bible and trying to convert people; I even had my own little hellfire speeches. This pretty much went on throughout my entire school years — I was always known as the Jesus freak or that crazy Jesus guy.
This all changed though, and ironically enough, it happened when i joined the army. Once I went through basic training I was almost forced to meet with people of other views and to get along with them. I couldnt just start preaching to somebody, telling them their going to hell, because these were the people watching my back, and I respected them.
Well, after I got out of the army I was already everything my former Christian self hated: I was an alcoholic, I was a womanizer, cursed like a sailor, the whole bit. Well I figured it was time to get back to my roots and try to be the Christian man I used to be, but something unexpected happened.
When I came back to the church I used to go to, just about everyone shunned me. I guess somehow my old drinking and casual sex stories had gotten back to them, andhey didnt like it one bit. I was all but told to leave by the people there.
This was when the doubts seriously began. I tried several churches in hopes that maybe it was just my old church that was like this, but for the most part I had to face it: for some reason these people that I used to call friends had heard that I was living in sin and now wanted nothing to do with me.
So I started to research my own faith, thanks in most to this site. But I was as impartial as I could be, reading this site and then going to Christian sites to see what they had to say. When it all came down to it I have come to believe that Christianity is nothing more than a country club, as long as you believe what they believe and show up to the meetings, everyone loves you. But, the second you start to waiver, you're gone and hated.
This was my starting reason to leave the faith — everything else just sort of fell in place after that. Since then Ive become a Deist, but the thing is I'm not complety stuck on it; I'm still studying other things, as I am sort of new at this. For 22yrs I did nothing but study the Bible, so now it's strange to be learning about other faiths deemed Satanic by the Christian culture (hehe).
Well, thats my speil. I hope you enjoyed it. It's not the most awesome anti-testimony ever, but hope it helps somebody in some way.
Comments
There's a lot of it about!
I felt the same on discovering that there other ways of looking at religion, othere philosophies, those called Satanic by Christians. If it's true and all us Free Thinkers, Deists, Atheists, Agnostics, those who don't buy into the crap any more are on their way to hell it's going to be a lot more interesting than 'think what I think' heaven!As for you trying to convert people from being young (5th Grade is about ten eleven, isn't it? Excuse me if I'm wrong)well, you were taught it was right from the start, and as soon as you got free(joined the army)you learnt about real life and reality and not the silly fantasies you were brought up with.
All the best, anyhow.
I've never believed in Bible thumping. I just believe in the Bible.
"A man and many men wrote the bible, yet you look to the man written book for guidance." What is your point here? What difference does it make if men wrote the bible. All it is is a historical account of things that happened. The Lord can still use it to move in you and speak to you. He can use anything, He could talk to you through you "Alpha-bits" if he wanted.
"The Gospel According To St.John, ch 1 vs 18, "No man hath seen God at any one time." " That is true. You know, you can't see gravity either but you see it's pull. You know it is there. He will "reveal" Himself, His intentions, His plan for your life.
Never once did I boast your say that I had all the answers. And I hope I am not coming across as advisarial with you, that is not my intent. I preach this and this alone, "Christ and Christ crucified". I was a sinner before I was saved, and now I am a sinner saved by grace. He knows I will fall before I do, and He still picks me up, dusts me off, and waits for me to fall again. Christianity is a journey, not a destination. Call that a cliche if you will but there it is.
Anyway, to "From Bible-thumper to a Deist" I say I will still be praying for you. And for "Ben", I'll boil some water, and then pray for you.
God Bless
I found this site about a week or so ago and ititally was interested to see what some of you ex-(insert religion here)ists had to say. I was moved to tears by some of the testimonies of those who have been betrayed, lied to, or mislead to a point where they just gave up. No matter what side of the fence you are on, Christian or otherwise, you have to admit that it is tragic.
But reading the posts of the other members of this “Community of Believers”, or NON-Believers, it is apparent to me that you and your fellow “x”-ists are virtually no different then the Christians you persecute. On this site we have a group of people who share similar beliefs, who congregate in a certain place (cyber-space) and discuss, encourage, and edify each other. That sounds a lot like a church to me. And you all immediately assume that anyone who holds an alternative viewpoint is wrong. What really amazed me is that all of your beliefs require the same amount of “FAITH” as the Christian beliefs you so obviously abhore.
“The source of god is your brain, your brain is communicating with your inner self or itself. Your brain is analyzing the information it sees and hears and what it has seen and been told to be accepted as truth.” These are your words. Can you prove any of what you say? I would love to see your published works or any other evidence you can offer. And the conviction in which you speak these words is so evident. It just drips off every sentence. You truly believe what you’re saying. But you are also equally unwilling to even listen to or consider another point of view. In my opinion you are no better than the “Fundies” you persecute.
I am trying to be totally objective in my assessment of the situation here. If you don’t agree please reply. But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much. “This is our view, all others are wrong”. Totally exclusive like all other hardcore religions. In all my posts I never admonished or belittled what anyone said, but pretty much everyone said I was being self-righteous. I just don’t see it. Take a good look inside at your character and your choices. Much of this site talks about other people; “I left the church because of this” or “I know Christians who do that” so Christianity must be wrong. Whatever. Take a good look in the mirror, objectively, and honestly and tell me what you see. I’m looking forward to it.
Later.
Let me tell you about myself. I am 27 years old, married, and recently adopted a six year old girl. She was a distant niece that we rescued from DCF (Dept. of children and families). I have lived alone since I was 17. My parents never approved of my Christian beliefs and we still don’t see eye-to-eye. Needless to say I don’t call her every night. I also OWN (no mortgage) the home that my wife and I live in and I rent out another house nearby. So I am not living with my parents. I have been a struggling Christian since Sept. 2nd, 1994. I am not struggling with my faith but just the day to day living as a Christian and trying to live by Christ’s teachings. Not easy as you know, but well worth it in my opinion.
Despite what you have said, I do consider other view points and interpretations. Just because I do not agree does not mean I do not listen. Maybe you do not see the difference but there is a difference. A big one.
I did not become a Christian because of some childhood fear. I was not raised in a Christian home and never feared hell. I really didn’t know anything about it. I came to the Lord when I was 15. I have fallen away twice, both times rebuking the Lord and prepared to never return. And both times, after finding nothing in redeeming in other religions, in myself, or in this world that satisfied, I prayed. I asked God, if He exists at all, to prove it. To show me, to let me know He was there. He did. I have been delivered from more trials and tribulations than I can recount.
What has your beliefs gotten you? Are you happy? Are you content? You sure don’t sound it. Perhaps this is only my 27 years of youth speaking, or my lack of real world experience but you sound downright miserable.
You don’t NEED faith you say. You have faith in more things you realize. You have faith that God did not create the universe. You have faith the sun will come up tomorrow. You have faith in evolution (I assume here). You have faith there is no God. You have faith in a lot of things you can’t prove. It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that something does not exist. But somehow you can.
I have no problem comprehending your posts. It is not hard to recognize or understand what you are trying to say and get across. I get it! I just don’t see the fruit in what you are doing or saying.
It may be wrong to make those assumptions about you in the above paragraph. I don’t know you and made judgments based on your posts. I apologize. But rest assured my “Jesus umbilical cord” will not be cut. It does not shelter me from the world, or reality, I gives me strength, focus, and hope. As far as a comfort zone; I haven’t found one yet. I am in a war zone everyday, in the mission field. More clichéd analogies, I know, but it’s accurate.
Everyone on this planet thinks what they believe is right. One day we will find out who was correct. Good luck.
Oh, what is with that other post that says “Removed by author”? I think I may like to see what you posted.
Later
Uhm, Dave, that's not exactly how it works.
Those who make fantastic claims (invisible gods, angels, devils, etc.) have the responsibility to present evidence proving those fantastic assertions. If someone tells me that every night Big Foot comes to their house for dinner, I'd have every right to doubt them until they presented some tangible evidence. If they told me that they could provide no evidence except for a feeling in their heart, well, I don't think I'd believe them. Would it ever be my responsibility to PROVE that Big Foot is NOT coming to their house for dinner?
By what you're saying, my unbelief would be tantamount to boldly declaring that there is no Big Foot and then you'd saddle me with the responsibility of proving it (Big Foot) wasn't true!
If I do boldly declare that there is no such thing as Big Foot, it never would fall to me to prove my disbelief. It falls to those who say, "THERE IS A BIG FOOT" to prove that there is such a thing.
Do you believe in Zeus? If not, why not? Can you PROVE there is no Zeus? Do you believe in Allah? If not, why not? Can you PROVE there is no Allah?
You dogmatically said, "everyone on this planet thinks what they believe is right." Do you believe in UFOs? I don't. I've seen no evidence of UFOs, so I don't believe in them. Many people do, however. People believe all kinds of wacky things. Invisible gods, angels, devils, and flying undead man-gods on sticks sound like wacky things to me.
When you can present some verifiable evidence that your invisible friends exist, then we could have a logical exchange of ideas. In the meantime, all you are doing is spouting mythology and accusing everyone else of having faith in -- well, faith in NOT believing in your myths.
I have faith in not believing in your god? Does that even sound right?
While you are correct that "it is impossible to prove something does not exist," it still falls to you to prove that your god indeed DOES exist. I can say there is no Big Foot, no UFOs, no Allah and no Zeus without being required to PROVE that such things don't exist. If one day someone shows me evidence that those things DO exist, then I'll believe in them.
The same goes for your god.
Oh, and the thinly veiled threat of hellfire and judgment ("One day we will find out who was correct. Good luck.") is quite unbecoming.
For the record, there was no threat of hellfire and judgement, at least not intentionally. And for those who felt threatened or judged I apologize.
In regards to your statements requiring burdens of proof; I don’t understand the following statement you made:
If I do boldly declare that there is no such thing as Big Foot, it never would fall to me to prove my disbelief. It falls to those who say, "THERE IS A BIG FOOT" to prove that there is such a thing.
What is the difference between claiming something does not exist and something does exist. Both in my opinion would be unsubstansiated claims if you can’t provide proof either way.
The sad thing is that all this arguing and discussion ultimately leads to a dead end. One party will never agree with the other. And even if I could provide some evidence it would just be written off. Christ could walk among us, perform miracles, raise people from the dead and still people won’t believe. It happed 2000 years ago and it would happen today if he came back. And I have to admit that if Ala were to walk among us I would probably not believe it either. In my opinion, the things I have seen and experienced is proof enough for me but not for everyone else posting on this site.
I won’t try to convince you or anyone to see “OUR” side but I hope if you guys have questions or whatever, for what it is worth, I’m here.
Later
Now, if you want to argue about it, please prove that there is one.
Here is how the rules of evidence works, until you PROVE there is evidence FOR something, then the invisible thing you're promoting just doesn't exist, except in your own imagination.
Before Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone, everyone could boldly say "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TELEPHONE!" They didn't have to scour the Universe to prove that statement. However, once Bell invented the telephone, and presented to the world, THEN, and ONLY THEN, was there a telephone. Up until that point, the phone was only in his mind.
You really need to take some logic courses. Your thinking ability has been hobbled.
The argument is at a dead end, because you want people to accept what you say without presenting ANY evidence proving your fantastic claim!
I DOUBT YOUR CLAIM. I DON'T BELIEVE YOUR CLAIM. YOUR CLAIM IS ONLY IN YOUR IMAGINATION.
Now, you have every right to prove my doubts wrong, but I don't have to justify doubting you -- it is YOUR responsiblity to PROVE your positive assertion.
You have to support your belief in a god. I don't have to support my disbelief in a god. Do you think you should have to support your disbelief in Allah, in Zeus, in the Great Spirit? Do you think Allah is just pretend? Do you think you should have to PROVE that Allah is just pretend in order to justify your LACK of faith in Allah?
Please, take a logic course.
In fact, take two.
You and your followers still make a lot of assumptions (ie: "It's all in your imagination"). Again, something you can't prove and still believe. You've managed to surround yourself with a lot of other people who are just as stuborn and close minded as all those who you loath and disrespect show much in "THE CHURCH". You would benifit from taking the blinders off. In fact, take the ear plugs out as well.
Frankly I am bored with you. I am wasting electricity talking to you when I could just talk to the four walls in this room for free and be just as understimulated. You are wrong when you state you don't have to prove your disbeliefs, and that is fine with me. You can be wrong if you like.
Later
David, can any person on this planet be totally objective? Do you believe everyone on this planet is equal, in their genetic makeup, and environmental experiences that give us knowledge of this life?
Do you believe, that an Objective reality exists, in our universe somewhere? Can you please explain, how a person with obviously unique natures and nurtures, thus unique perceptions of reality, can possibly perceive an Objective reality as an equal to others of humanity?
Do you support the theory of general/special relativity/determinism, or are you more of a follower of the uncertainty principle/indeterminism? Why? Feel free to provide empirical examples.
David: "But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much."
That statement sounds absolutist to me, however, that's my "subjective" view, as, its obvious we all perceive our macro reality, in much the subjective manner. Unless, you want to define a few dimensions of reality, on your leisure, and tie them together nicely with some mathematical order theory, again, using some empirical evidence.
David: "“This is our view, all others are wrong”. Totally exclusive like all other hardcore religions."
If you can't support your view as a Universal Absolute, it appears your view is just a mere subjective opinion, amongst the billions on this planet, how privilaged many of us are that you grace us with your wisdom. I personally, wouldn't call your opinion, "wrong", I don't know what's going on in your mind, you obviously believe the information you hold is "true". However, if you attempt to convey your, mentally held belief onto others, as a guide, then you need to provide your belief, in a manner in which many on this site will accept your vision/truth, for me - that would be empirical evidence please. So, that I may take what you provide, and "subjectively" inspect the evidence, and create a "subjectively" laden opinion for my Self.
David: "In all my posts I never admonished or belittled what anyone said, but pretty much everyone said I was being self-righteous. I just don’t see it."
David: "But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much."
Well, self-righteous could be perceived by us mere mortals, as you portraying "all" people on this globally expansive site, as religious "absolutists". In order for you to make that statement as a "truth", you must perceive yourself as omniscient, and knowledgeable of "all" people who view this site - some may consider that being slightly self-righteous, and even a little pompous. However, you do have that right, and every opportunity to exercise and finesse your technique I suppose.
David: "Take a good look inside at your character and your choices."
Okay, but of course, that leads us back to a subjective truth and how we perceive our reality. We are all correct in our own minds, its how we interact with others, based on our values, that appears to make the difference for many of us.
David: "Much of this site talks about other people; “I left the church because of this” or “I know Christians who do that” so Christianity must be wrong."
If Christianity, is not to be inspected by the sum of its parts - christian people and the examples they set, then, please explain how one is to measure the objectivity of christianity.
By order theory, its obvious, that you must hold that christianity is a Univesal Object, part of the set - Objective Reality. How does one perceive an Objective Reality, if they themselves are held abound, by their own subjective views in life? Would it be presumptious to say, that you have no more objective truth, than your subjectivism allows?
David: "Whatever. Take a good look in the mirror, objectively, and honestly and tell me what you see. I’m looking forward to it."
What I see, and perceive appears to be of truth to me, but as an educated person, I must concede that my views are mine alone, and they are subjective according to my unique nature and nurture. Any view to the contrary, would seem as repressive as religion in general.
If you have a thought or spark of supreme objectivity, then perhaps you can provide a detailed description of the dimensional aspects where reality is split via supremum and infimum. Then, you can present the world with a final unified theory, bridging together macro and micro theoretical physics. Until that time David, subjectivity rules, to include your subjective view of a "god" figure. Looking forward to your answers to the above questions, as I am sure... you have pondered long and hard on the nature of reality, and how you have come to be one of the elect who found an objective god, in their most subjectively induced life.
When speaking of empirical facts, there is a huge difference. Oddly, it is religionists who seem to be so keenly aware of the impossibility of proving negative empirical claims that they often use it as a brickbat against atheists, claiming that it renders their position untenable. Indeed, we see that old fallacy repeated here almost on a daily basis. Of course, it's a fallacy because atheists needn't *prove* the negative (i.e. the non-existence of some deity) any more than theists need to *prove* the non-existence of each and every OTHER deity that has been claimed to exist.
So, is that some kind of double standard, or logical chicanery? No. Positive claims, such as claims of existence, carry the burden of proof, otherwise we would be obliged to accept absolutely every loony idea to fall from the lips of every believer, which would include myriad contradictory claims. In other words, to *believe* every proposition until proven false leads to a complete logical mess. Not only would you be bowing to EVERY deity every imagined, but you would be cowering in fear of poltergeists, Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, alien abductors, and the boogieman. In other words, you would be the ultimate credulous fool, who is completely paralyzed by outlandish beliefs.
On the other hand, if you adopt a policy of reserving belief for only those propositions that meet the standard of *evidence* (i.e. *warranted* belief), then it is possible (in principle) to rid yourself of logical contradictions, not to mention a pantheon of false gods. I say that this desirable state is possible "in principle" because there is still the matter of sifting through the purported evidence and determining which is valid and which is not; a process that is, of course, subject to error. However, with dedication and practice, one can gain considerable skill in weighing evidence, thereby reducing the likelihood of error. In any case, one is clearly better off than being mired in countless contradictions, which is the price one pays for extreme credulity.
Bottom line: I have examined the purported evidence for the existence of your deity (presumably the god of Abraham), and thus far I have found not a single shred of it to be credible; indeed, the vast majority of it does not rise above logical fallacy or distortion of fact. I am therefore acting rationally by disbelieving the claims of those who say he exists. In a similar vein, I reject the claims of Muslims and Hindus. They too have failed to provide credible evidence of their deities, in my opinion.
Now, David went on to say that "Christ could walk among us, perform miracles, raise people from the dead and still people won’t believe." Which is to say, EVEN IF compelling evidence was provided, we would disregard it and continue to reject claims of the divinity of Jesus. Well, that is nothing more than speculation on your part. (Your claim that "It happed 2000 years ago" is another positive claim that is lacking evidentiary support; and seeing as how it subsumes your other claims, appealing to it is circular anyway.) Since there is no such evidence at hand, a completely valid question to ask is "Where is the evidence?". That is the first bridge to cross, and it is yours to navigate.
David then added this ad hominem attack: "You've managed to surround yourself with a lot of other people who are just as stuborn and close minded as all those who you loath and disrespect..."
David, we all make assumptions, and we all make mistakes. Agreed? What matters to me is whether a person is willing to examine both (all) sides of an issue and to continually look for ill-founded conclusions in one's own thinking. I find very few believers who are willing to do either of these things. In fact, the vast majority of them (at least among those who visit this site) simply cast aspersions at those who hold different beliefs. That is no way to arrive at something approximating truth. In fact, in my opinion, it is the surest way to sink into a pit of self-deception, sheltered by prejudice and in many cases outright bigotry.
I come to this website alot but I am not here because I'm anyone's follower.
I'm here because I gave up following.
I dumped all of my assumptions and I'm starting from scratch.
This website has kept me from going down many and varied wacky paths, because it has kept me on my toes in demanding proof and continuing to question, to doubt - and not to just 'follow'.
You say you weren't happy with other religions and had to turn back to bible-god. Maybe you just don't like to think too hard?
It's easier just to follow.
You need to get out of the 'follower' mentality, of "Should I follow this, or that religion, no, I'll settle for this one..."
When we don't accept what you say to us, and don't just nicely follow along, you say you're bored.
You don't want to tell us what your expeiences were that proved to you that bible-god exists.
So we see that it's too hard for you to justify what you follow because it would take thought, and facing up to questions.
That's too much for you.
Jesus is the 'good shepherd' and you are the good and faithful sheep.
Do you ever think deep enough to realise that the only reason a shepherd protects and guides his sheep is so that he can use them for his own purposes later on?
To shear them for wool, slaughter them for food, trade, etc.
It's all about control, and the man-made bible is made to control other men.
You've been had, by cunning old men from ancient times.
Good sheep.
"Obedience, Bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth,
Makes slaves of men, and, of the human frame,
A mechanized automaton."
- Percy Bysshe Shelley (Queen Mab)
The message is the result of a messenger's subjective views. To make a subjective view, more transferrable to others, perhaps the subjective messenger can provide something that can be more objectively viewed, and not absolutely objectively viewed, like some natural evidence.
J21: "We all share so many things in common. Our DNA is practically the same (somewhere around 99% or something like that, maybe 95%, I haven’t been keeping track for awhile),"
Well, and that appears to be the same results as DNA between humanity and chimps.
J21: "...and we all need the same basic things in life. Food, water, shelter, friends, family, a job, love, etc. (feel free to add your own). And yet we, as a race, focus on that 1-5% difference between ourselves. Maybe it is a hard wired behavior..."
That statement is so grossly out of whack I am not sure how I want to respond. Some people believe so strongly in self-esteem and being skinny, they actually starve themselves to death. Why? Aren't we all equal in categorized and general needs? In order for you to make a statement, you are going to have to delve into "values", i.e., life is valuable, therefore, in order to sustain life we are all equal as we need to eat to live, etc. So, J21, name a few objective values so that we can attempt to establish them accross humanity. Many religions have an outlook on life, where death becomes more valuable than life itself. Therefore, "needs", are what we "think" we need, and are as subjective as everyone else. Now, I'd argue that there are naturalistic needs that are required to sustain life, but the value of life itself could be debated, and... most religions are far less compassionate about the needs of the individual, as they find more value in some object in a transcendent reality... people are willing to die for words on a piece of paper... So, no, we don't all have the same needs, as "values" themselves are subjective. J21, you and I, are not the same, sorry... Generalizing needs, and stating that we all "must" perceive those needs, in some respect or another, is nothing short of a religionist saying a god in fact exists, therefore, there "must" be atheists... What not say, there is no factual category of god, until evidence is provided, and thus, there need not be a label of atheism... You presume too much in this reality... That's not an attack, just an observation, from a subjective view...
J21: "(now all the behavioral psychologists and what not are going to flame me for delving into their territory), I don’t know, but don’t you think its ridiculous?"
I think its ridiculous that behaviorists are lumped in with "hard wired" cognitivists, but, that's just me... So, what about those subjective values J21, care to bring any up, so that we may pull some religious rhetoric out and compare and contrast... Life is precious, but then... we have Jesus in a book committing suicide/euthanasia, I suppose Jesus "must" provide humanity with his "Objective" values... So, J21, I suppose if you don't respond to this post, you are a true believer of the bible... unless you didn't get the message, for all of those corrupt messengers...
J21: "Tell me what you think."
Its subjective, you obviously don't understand... You create your little god with your subjective views, and I uncreate your god with my subjective views... However, we both create our subjective reality from a natural source, how was it that you created a god with the same environment that I uncreated your god? I know, you didn't get past the second semester of philosophy, but... think on it.
J21: "Oh, and just to fire some of you up again, "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless." -Bertrand Russell, atheist.
So much for keeping things civil."
Regarding Bertrand, from my readings, his views are that it's impossible to delve into a Universal Purpose, without the aid of a god object external to humanity, as, we are mere humans can only perceieve individual and personal purpose, as a personal truth, with a little "p"...
Betrand, beleived that we can have personal purpose, but to jump to a Universal Purpose is tomfoolery... well, unless a subjective human wants to assume the character of an Objective god, and make statements about what a god's Purpose would be for humanity... but then, J21, that makes the person god themselves doesn't it...
In short, Purpose doesn't exist, we see from a subjective view on reality, and thus have self/personal purpose which provides fulfillment in our lives...
However, there are some authors who capitalize on the ignorance of the masses, and actually state that a person can see past their own peronsal truth and subjective perception, in order to find an "Obective" Truth, i.e., god's Purpose for life, etc.
Now, who would make such a deceiving statement...
**********************************************************************
The Purpose-Driven Life, Rick Warren, Zondervan, 2004.
"It All Starts with God. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, ... everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him.
Colossians 1: 16 (Msg)
'Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless. Bertrand Russell, atheist'
It's not about you."
http://www.readersread.com/excerpts/purposedrivenlife.htm
**********************************************************************
So, Rick, taking on the character role of "god", gives us "his" personal subjective "truth" about god's Purpose in life... Per Rick, its not about "You" and personal purpose... right... But without "You", a person would never search out "Purpose", thus, it appears it really is about "You" First, as it appears Rick has found no problem putting himself/his "You", first when making his most subjective views in a book, while touting he knows the Universal Purpose for life...
Isaiah (700s BCE)KJV bible:
"Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways." [citing God]
It appears some christians, to include authors who write to christians just can't accept that their own veiws are subjective and not the thoughts of a "god", and thus... have "no credibility" when speaking on a gods' behalf, i.e., Universal Objective Purpose, etc.
J21, it appears, you need to read a little more about Bertrand, and the bible.
But seriously Mr Price (or not, hey, if we're doing voices can I be Mr Burns? eh-xcellent...) your god is not love.
Christianity is not really about love, it's not about 'God', it's not even about Jesus resurrection
- it's about Hell.
Fear is the basis for social control - and what bigger fear can you have than Hell?
You are one of those, what I call, "one eyed christians".
Maybe you're one of Bob Schuller's 'Positive Christians'?
Same thing.
You love all the 'love' talk and dance around in the fairy dust of how great god is - yet if you're thinking of bible-god then you're greatly mistaken.
You say it's impossible to prove whether or not god exists, but that doesn't matter. What we CAN prove is that Bible-god doesn't exist.
It all revolves around love?
1 Corinthians gives a famous description of what love is supposed to be like, including this:
1 Corinthians 4:5
“…It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.”
“Keeps no record of wrongs”, it says...
Open your other eye and take a look at Hell.
Hell is not love.
Hell, as described in the bible, is eternal torment.
No getting out once you're there, no mercy, no relief, not even a drop of water to cool your tongue...
Love keeps no record of wrongs?
So, hell doesn't make sense according to it's description in the bible, because it contradicts it's own descriptions of the nature of god.
So the bible doesn't make sense.
So it can't be true.
So its description of god can't be true.
So, bible-god does not really exist.
So christianity is false.
Christianity is nothing without the fear of Hell.
What is all this love crap anyway?
I don't see love in this world, I only see addiction to things that give us a measure of pleasure (hey that sounds like a band name).
It only lasts while it gives us what we want.
I guess that is a description of bible-god's love then, since we are only 'loved' by him as long we give him what he wants.
I think the closest thing I can think of to what you mean by the catch all term 'love' is mercy.
Hell is anything but merciful.
There is no mercy in hell.
A 'god of love' would show mercy don't you think?
I don't see mercy in nature.
I only see mercy in the actions of humans.
It's rare, sure, but it shows that we humans are capable of greater qualities than the bible-god, who throws those he supposedly created in 'love' - to an eternity of torment.
So why should he be worshipped higher than us?
OK, you can go back to smoking dope and watching Simpsons now - those other control factors...
You said that faith is for lazy thinkers. I don’t agree with you. If you have evidence and/or proof that something exists than it requires no brain power to interpret. The evidence removes the need for thought. If a jury has sees a video tape of someone committing a crime they will convict. No thought required. The jury saw him do it. If a jury, however, is presented with evidence that is vague, for example, conflicting eyewitness accounts or inconclusive forensics, it is up to the jury to use their brains and interpret the evidence. Then they use judgment and render a verdict.
This is no different than what we see in Christianity, or other religions. There is vague evidence that God exists. Events happen that that some would call miracles and some would call coincidence. People say that they have “seen” or “felt” God; some will believe and some will say that the person is imagining it. It is up to the individual to judge based on the evidence, be that evidence concrete (indisputable) or vague (open to interpretation).
(Disclosure for the following paragraph; I am not trying to be hostile with you in the next paragraph. I am merely debating a topic with you.)
Finally, you are correct when you say that you can not prove a negative. You also stated several times that you know there is no God. Can you PROVE that? It is OK to say that you don’t believe in God based on the evidence available. But if you make the statement; “There is no God.” than you must prove it. 500 years ago EVERYONE “KNEW” that the world was flat. Today we “KNOW” that is not true. Just because someone says it does not make it true. I never said I knew God exists, I believe He does based on my interpretation of the available evidence.
Later
...but how do you know it's bible-god?
If you were raised in Iran or Afghanistan you'd assume it was muslim-god...
I belive, based on what I have read in the Bible and what I have seen with my own eye's, that is is "Bible-God". And I don't know, I belive it is God. I would actually admit that I know it is God. But since I can't "prove" it I will just state that I belive it is God. I really don't know enough about the other religions to make a strong case against your comments. Maybe it is a muslim-god. I don't believe it is and can't imagine ever believing that to be true.
You may be right in saying that if I was born in Afganistan I would be muslim or whatever. I like to think that I would see the holes in the religion and look for something else if I was raised in it. But I can't say for sure.
Later
I have seen many things that I can only explain as being the Hand of God. I feel like I am caught between a rock and a hard place however; What I call proof I fear you will call mere coincidence. Also, these events were very personal and imortant to me. I am a little weary about posting them for public disection and ridicule. But here are a few.
About 11 years ago a friend of mine was suffering from breathing issues and irregular heartbeat. We went to the doctor and recieved an MRI. The MRI revealed a hole in the wall of heart between two of the chambers. He got a scond MRI a week later to confirm the findings and again the hole was present. The hole was of significant size, I don't remember the actual diameter. WE layed hands on him the day of the second MRI and prayed. The next day he went for a third MRI and the hole was gone.
The Lord has worked through my finances as well. I used to have serious money issue before I started tithing my ten percent. After I started tithing money would apear out of nowhere in my account. Whenever I had a large bill come up like an unexpected like needed a new roof or the furnace blowing up (not litterelly blowing up but you know what I mean) extra money would always appear. I'm talking in the thousands, just enough to cover the bill. Or I would find uncahsed checks in the house.
These things probably just sound like coincidence but they really happened.
I have heard His voice as well. I know what your thinking but when I have been very deep in prayer, seeking a particular path He has revealed it. A lot of the time th einstruction was just "wait". It was always right.
Everytime I have turned my life to His hands He has delivered me from circumstances I couldn't have imagined getting myself out of. He does it everytime.
I know it sounds crazy, stupid, unsubstansiated (that may be spelled wrong), coincidental, and like cliched noncence but it happened. And I am convinced that it is real.
I foresee accusations of scitophrenia and demntia in my neer future here so have at it.
Later
I wonder, have you ever seen, or even heard, of someone having a severed limb regrown through prayer?
I would like to see, or even hear, of someone who's had their arms or legs blown off in Iraq, have then magically grow back through the power of your God.
The problem with all the miraculous healing stories, in my opinion, is that every one of the healed conditions was something invisible, something no one could really see or touch, something that could have just normally healed.
Doctors told me that my daughter would be born with Spina Bifida. They ran tests and confirmed that my daughter had this condition, and advised that we might want to consider an abortion. My daughter was not magically healed, but when she was born, she did not have the condition, not a trace of it. The doctors' tests were mistaken.
Again, any regrown limbs out there? How about some regrown teeth?
Why are the regrown limbs proof that God exists. If someone did grow back a limb would you call that an Act of God, or just a freak medical phenomenon? Would you say "The Lord has done this!" or would you say "This is not God's work. If a lizard can grow a limb back, or an octopus, why not a human?" Would you believe the event or would you rationalize the event? And what if the person was not a follower of Christ? Would it still be a miracle, or would it be just an oddity?
Also, did you pray for your daughters recovery. If you did can you honestly say that it was a bad test or was it Devine intervention? Only you know for sure I guess. Does God have the power to regrow a limb? I think so. Would he grow one back for me? I sure hope so. I don't think I want to test it however.
Signed,
Dave Poole
I could go through your list of amazing events and explain why I don't believe them (at least not without some solid corroboration), but I'll spare you that. If they are very meaningful to you, then hang onto them and interpret them as you like. You realize that they are *personal* events, and you are not looking to get our "blessing", I presume, so I see no need to try to shred you.
Here's how I look at it. Believers come in essentially two flavors. Those who hold to their own beliefs and respect the right of others to do the same, and those who think everybody ought to think just like them. I have no quarrel with the former; however, I could do without the latter, thank you very much. As long as you are not casting aspersions at those who do not believe your stories at face value and/or do not reach the same conclusions as you, I'm happy to think of you as the first flavor.
I'm not quite sure why you feel the need to share your stories here, given that they are *personal*, and therefore do not carry much weight in terms of evidence, but I'm not going to jump on you for that (I'll let others do that :-).
I know you were bracing for verbal thrashing, so I hope my response did not disappoint you.
That's the point isn't it -- no one has ever regrown a severed limb, ever.
I guess even a god has its limits.
I was asked by south2003 to mention some things so I did. For the record I have no desire to chastise or browbeat anyone into thinking what I do. I do hope that I can help some people out there in my own small way. This site has been an eye-opener in a lot of ways. If all of these testomonies are true than I understand why people would want no part in organized religion or the god they represent. This site has not made me question my faith but has inspired me to render change in my own church. Call it preventative maintnance. I think a lot of Christians are unaware of why people "reaaly" are turning from the church. They do have a self-righteous, "they're just lost" type of attitude.
Later Jim.
To webmaster,
I addressed south2003 when I sould have addressed you, sorry.
I used the word "if" because no one has ever grown an arm back. I know that and you know that. Now that we got the obvious stuff out of the way perhaps you will answer my earlier question; Did you pray for your daughter before she was born? If you don't want to say that's fine. Either way I am glad she turned out to be alright.
ALways a pleasure webmaster,
Dave Poole
Belief what you will. It doesn't matter to me. I know what happened. Call it a lie, call it a bank error, call it poor math skills. I don't care. Call it what ever you want. I don't recall calling you a liar and really don't appreciate you calling me one. If you think I'm pulling your chain or misrepresenting myself chose not to talk to me or ask the webmaster to remove me.
Dave Poole
Sure, you can claim that there is a god that can do these things; the point is, it *never* happens. Apparently god only likes to tinker with his creation in such a way that his actions are indistinguishable from commonly observed phenomena; e.g. she sticks to illnesses that can be influenced greatly by one's thinking, or those that can clear up on their own. She never cures a child of Down's syndrome, or Ebola, and she never replaces anything that has been severed from the body.
If those things *did* happen, would it *prove* the existence of god? No, I don't think so. But it would certainly be something to ponder, and I would consider it to be more substantive evidence of divine intervention than anything I have thus far seen. Here are some other things that would get my attention: For one whole day (24 hours), not one child on Earth starves to death, is killed by a land mine, is raped or murdered or done in by some natural disaster or disease, etc. Here's another one: On Christmas day each year, every child suffering from cancer has that disease go into remission. Or how about this: Insects suddenly stop eating the crops in famine-stricken parts of the world, and water fills the wells of drought-stricken lands. Or how about rearranging the stars on one special night to spell out "Peace" in every language of the world. I could go on and on. While I cannot say for sure that any one of these would absolutely prove to me that there is a god, each one would force me to very seriously consider that possibility. But the reality is quite different. What I find instead is a collection of stories that are no better, on the whole, than those invented and passed down in every other culture of the world.
I will ask and see if he still has or has access to the images. As far as the tithes thing (I know this will get hammered) The Lord honors those who obeys His commands. I don't know the exact verse. I am sure someone out there can find it and tell me how I misinterpreted it or mis-spoke it. And for all you unbelievers out there I don't think you have to worry about the "voice" in my head telling me to kill anyone.
God does answer every prayer. Sometimes he says "yes" and sometimes He says "no". Looks like He said "no" to your prayer. This is the last post I will be addressing to you. You're too hostile, angry, bitter, and hard-hearted.
Talking with you is not productive at all. Nothing is good enough for you. Everything has to be advisarial. If I gave you a $50 bill you would complain because it was green. Nothing but anger in you. You need help my friend. It saddens me.
Dave Poole
John 14:13-14 (NIV) "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
He is supposed to never so NO to those who ask, or is he a liar?!
John 14:13-14 (NIV) "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
You can ask for "anything in my name". That is true. This means (as is my understanding) that you can ask for anthing that is within His will. If it is not His will that (fill in the blank) He will answer "no".
So if it is in his will, there is NO need for prayer for it will be done. If it is not his will, you have wasted your time praying! Am I right so far?
However, it said that he WILL DO IT!
No room for negotiations. ("You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.")
Another possibility is that your god is not so powerful now is he?!
Remember that it needed help from the other gods (Zeus et al) to create man!
Gen 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Who is the US and who is OUR????
Your god is weak and pathetic!
I always find it ironic that they can pick and choose at will! No integrity what-so-ever!
To me, they bible has to be all or nothing!
All of us freethinkers understand the nothing part because the little shit does not justify the whole!
There you go again being all pragmatic and nice!
On a side note, you know that it has been over a year since you (you were the first) to welcome me here!
Time sure does fly when you get to bash a fundy! lol
Have you ever noticed that after leaving a comment, at the top of the blogger page it says that your comment has been "saved"?
Since switching to the new format, I have found it amusing!
I am touched!
Do you really think God would give people whatever they wanted. Be real. Would you give your children whatever they wanted. I believe the God in heaven knows what is best for us, just as you know what is best for your children. And yes I know that no one here believes in God so save it.
And no, I do not believe that God wants children to starve. He created 6 billion people who could do something about. The Earth produces enough food for all. What have you done to solve the problem? How many meals have you given up to feed someone else. I can admit that I do not do a lot apart from a small “save the children” donation (that may or may not be the correct charity. The bill comes every year and I just send the check, and the minimum amount at that).
But this isn’t about you, right. It is about all those “so called Christians” who aren’t doing anything. It is easier to blame God and talk about it on the internet while you finish off another bag of “Fritos”. This is not a direct attack at you but rather all those who speak of the ills of this world while do nothing about it. All the while blaming God.
And to Dan (rationalist),
Thanks, I don’t believe you are correct but I do appreciate it.
Dave Poole
Thanks for posting. Good to hear anothe Christian out there.
To south2003,
South2003:Whatever I ask for..remember unless your god is not capable of doing the do. What is this? Are we in grade school now? If people asked God to give them a nuclear weapon or pray for people to be killed would he do that? Doesn't make sence to me. Would he give everyone on Earth a billon dollors if they asked for it? NO. The entire world economy would crumble. If He fulfilled every selfish request the world would destroy itself. If God gave everybody everthing they wanted we would all be like gods. Human beings are too selfish , arrogant and stupid to handle that power.
David: Be real. Would you give your children whatever they wanted.
South2003: Yes, if it is in my power to do so, then I would!
No matter what they asked for? That's something. You would let your 8 year old stay up all night if he wanted to? You would let hom/her not go to school, or do drugs? If your childs sake you may want to rethink your position there.
South2003: Is that a scapegoat David? Try again. The all powerful being bids me do his dirty work and clean up the mess. Don’t think so!
Why shouldn't we clean up the mess? We made it.
God does have ALL the answers, and if we would bother to ask Him He would give us the answers.
Dave Poole
Davey,
Please pray that all the children of the world — you know, the one's Jesus loves — red and yellow, black and white — the one's precious in His sight — would have something to eat tonight. Surely that's not asking too much of the magical god-man who multiplies fish and bread at will.
Oh, nevermind, the prayer was already answered — the answer was no. Sorry kids, no fish tonight.
Ba-zing! You got me.
How do Christians lie? Or more specifically, how did I lie? I read this page that you refered me to and have no response to give you. This "psychological phenomenon" puts people of faith or anyone with a strong view of a particular topic in a no win situation. If somebody investigates a new theory or idea and decides it doesn't make sense for them then they are labeled with "Cognitive Dissonance" because they can't accept reallity (or what somebody or some group has defined as reallity). And if they accept the new idea or theory then their faith is obviously debunct and out the window.
I do not think this "psychological phenomenon" does aplly to me but then again, perhaps I am suffering from......
Cognitive Dissonance
Your right. And I have probably been wasting my time trying to justify why God does or does not do things.
Dave Poole
I still think the playing field is not level. If you dismiss what I claim or believe you label that as an intellectual, informed decision. If I dismiss what you claim and believe I am labeled as too scared and comfortable in my delusion to handle the reallities of the real world.
And I don't see the corrilation between Christmas and the winter solstice. Just because the two happen at the same time. That's like saying the Canadian's stole Boxing day from Christianity because it occures on December 26th. (at this point I am hoping that boxing day doesn't have anything to do with Christmas, lest I look foolish, and to most of you I already do)
Dave Poole
Christmas and the Winter Solstice do not magically happen at the same time of the year! You truely are naive. Shakes one's head!
Zondy,
If anything is not literal in the bible, then you MUST question EVERYTHING!!!!
Passerby,
How have ya been? Some people just don't get it. Completely sad!
Just perhaps the entire bible is just one long parable! Stories to guide, admonish and scare the shit out of the bronze aged men!
One would do better living according to Buddha.
Good luck with these guys man. It took me about a week but I have come to realize this web site is a total waste of time.
To the rest,
After a week looking at this site I have decided to call it quits. 90% of the people here have no interest in debate but seem to be interested only in slandering what others believe and simple name calling. I thought we were past jounior high. Also, I rad the webmasters ex-testomony yesterday and realized that I do in fact suffer from a lot of the same aflictions that the Christians from his past suffered with. Particulrly the amount of time I spend in the word and researching what I believe. I am not saying I don't believe, quite the opposite. But I do need to devote more time to study, certanly more time than I devote to this website.
Anyway, good luck with your site here. I hope those who are seeking answers to lifes questions find them.
"This forum exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge to Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their invisible friend."
Keep studying the Bible. It was deep study of the Bible that led me here.
Another question: what henious sins have you committed that justice would demand an eternity of horrific torture as a proper punishment?
"Let's keep my sins out of this," you said.
So does that mean you do believe that an eternity of horrific torturous agony is a just punishment for your the sins you've committed in your life? My point with the question is obvious.
People have changed their behaviors after becoming Muslims, Buddhists, and by joining TM. Realizing a change is needed is not all that uncommon, and the means of obtaining a change is not confined to adopting one of the many versions of Christianity.
Anything that does harm to another would generally be thought of as a bad thing. Japan is only 1% Christian, yet their crime rate is negligible in comparison to all the "Christian" nations of the world. Morality and respect for our fellow humans is NOT the singular possession of religionists. In fact, usually, history has shown that the more religious the culture, the more apt that culture is treat those "outside the faith" with the utmost cruelty.
Regardless of all that, most of us here just don't believe in the nonsense of Christianity. There have been many good people who have done good things that have called themselves Christian.
So?
There have been many wicked people who have done heinous things that call themselves Christian.
Again — I say, so?
Christianity is just one of many cults in the world, nothing more, nothing less.
The religion of ancient Egypt lasted for 5000 years and greatly changed the world. Even today the effects of that culture are felt, remembered and studied.
Christianity has changed the world, you're right. So has Islam, Buddhism, Democracy, Communism, and a host of other isms and factions. Ideas change the world — duh.
However, when Christian RULED the world, for 1000 years, the fruit of that time was aptly named the Dark Ages.
Think about it.
Last post, I promise. Anyway, why do those who have left the Christian faith need encouraging. Why have this place to congregate. If you all are right then why do you need a suport group for each other. Reading the other posts left by non-believers it is obvious that they "believe" they have made the right choice. But if you are so confident in those choices then why do you need to have aother rally around you. Is it to keep them in line? To convince them they they made the "right choice"? It sounds to me like all you guys spend more time trying to convince yourselves that you made the right choice then you do others.
And without Christians posting on this site for you guys to attack the site this site would last about a week before everyone left.
Stay strong Zondy.
There are no support groups for people who no longer believe in trickle-down economics, or in low-carb diets, or in UFOs, or countless other beliefs (ill-founded or not), but there *are* support groups for those who leave religion. And there are some very simple reason for this. Religions have a way of influencing every aspect of one's life, including one's social circles. When one leaves a religion, one often leaves friendships, sometimes even a marriage, behind as well. Discovering that something that pervaded your thinking is actually false can be difficult to cope with emotionally, even if you are certain that you made the right choice in leaving it behind. It takes time to work through all the implications, and to reframe old points of view. Does that make sense to you?
I'm somewhat disappointed in you for asking such a question, because the answer is to be found in hundreds of posts here, in almost every thread. Instead of looking for an answer, it seems you chose to insinuate something about us as a community. Rather than seeing us as people who earnestly work toward discovering what is TRUE, as opposed to what we might wish to be true, and confronting the inevitable difficulties in taking that hard road, you see us as being the opposite, and you make unsavory implications.
David, you can believe what you want. Go off now, and be happy in your beliefs. This is a place to face up to difficult realities, and the folks who come here often could use a friendly nod from others who have been there. If you want to see a system of beliefs that could not possibly continue to exist without continually being propped up by others, and protected by a brick silo of propaganda and misinformation, then I suggest you look into your church down the street. That's not what goes on here.
There is no such thing as a Christian nation? Do you think there is such a thing as an Islamic nation?
Guess not.
Anyway, in answer to your question about John Newton and Mother Theresa, I'd say that living in a fantasy world may be more desirable on many levels, but it's still just a fantasy. As far as Mother Theresa goes, she had no problem with people being Buddhists, Muslims, whatever -- she was basically a great humanitarian.
And ah, Christianity did rule the western world for about 1000 years.
However, if you prefer your fantasy world, then by all means, pursue it! You are entitled to wear rose colored glasses and see devils and angels behind every bush — that is your right.
Now, this is our little corner of the Internet. There are thousands of Christian websites where people can discuss the merits of Christianity, and I don't go to a single one of them. I would consider it the ultimate rudeness to bully my way into someone's church, or someone's religious website, and start spouting my views. That's part of the reason why I set up this website. By way of analogy: you can do lots of things in your own house you'd never do in someone else's.
But all this is probably lost on you, because in your mind, no one has a right to believe anything but your version of your religion. Those who hold a heretical view of your religion — heretical being defined as anyone with a different understanding of various and sundry doctrines from you — are not real Christians. Your mind is locked firmly into place by a thousand modern Christian clichés. This is something obvious to those outside your narrow worldview, but you are blind to it.
Someday, just for your own education, study the development of theological thought from the first centuries of Christianity until now. Don't just presuppose that everything you now believe was always accepted as true, because it wasn't. Christianity has mutated and developed — dare I say evolved? — just like every other religion on the planet. It was not birthed fully grown, and many of the doctrines you hold dear were invented long after the anonymous writers of the New Testament were dead. Some of the most popular doctrines — the Rapture, the 7 years of Satan ruling the world, Dispensationalism in general — are less than 150 years old!
Believe it or not Zondy, you have not said one thing most of us haven't heard hundreds of times before. You've contributed no depth, no insight, no revelation, nothing but a parroting of every typical modern evangelical-lite doctrine heard daily on radio and television.
Unless you are afraid to do so, I really recommend you read some material written by other than evangelical-lite authors. I've read hundreds of Christian books, commentaries, histories, systematic theologies, etc., from the centuries preceding our own. Of course I've studied the Bible. Oh yes, I memorized much of it and read it through several times a year for nearly 3 decades.
When I finally got serious about my studies into the development of theological thought and belief, well, that's when the crust started to be rubbed off my tightly closed eyes.
Your eyes may never open, but one thing you definitely lack and need to acquire, is an understanding and tolerance for those who think your religion is bunk. Your mindset that all who disagree with you are fools, headed to hell, is not significantly different from the Islamic extremist. If you had been born in any one of the Christian nations a few hundred years ago, you'd be seeing people like me executed for the heinous crime of thinking freely.
Apparently my point wasn't obvious.
Here's my point: The punishment should fit the crime. Eternal retributive torture seems to be a mite excessive for temporal "sins." It seems especially sadistic in light of the fact that when this god set up the whole scenario — man, woman, Garden of Eden, apple, etc. — he was well aware that most of humanity would be granted eternal life in hell.
So, again, what heinous sins have you committed that warrant horrific torture for all eternity?
I know you won't list any, because there aren't any.
God's ways are not our ways, right? Well I'd expect that a god's ways would not be our ways, but I'd also expect that a god's ways would be superior to our ways. Apparently modern man's sense of justice is a bit superior to your god's sense of justice.
Well, I suppose people understood justice differently during the Bronze Age, so the gods they invented would of course reflect their own primitive views.
So you created all these things you are saying? They are new revelation?
I could have sworn they were just the same old parroting I've heard a thousand times.
Hmm.
Feel free to read it.
No, it's the very definition of a "straw man". I, and many others here, constantly encourage the believers who (for some reason) visit this site to read more broadly; for example, to read scholarly works that are critical of Christianity along side all the apologetics. In my opinion, that is a *prerequisite* for gaining a more realistic view. Now, if one does so, and actually grasps the form and substance of the arguments, THEN one will be in a position to evaluate them. Does it mean that such a person MUST then reach the same conclusions as the rest of us? No, it does not. But, without having done so, can you or anybody else conclude that they will not reach the same conclusion as the rest of us? Again, the answer is "no".
Zondy: "“Obviously you don’t get it” The punishment for crime is in direct relationship to the law, whether or not the criminal agrees with what the law should be."
That's a red herring. Yes, laws are intended to apply to all, EVEN to those who disagree with them. Nobody is trying to say otherwise. The question is whether eternal retributive punishment is *just* according to *any* interpretation we can give to the notion of justice. Even if the answer is "no" (which I feel is the correct answer), I will concede that an all-powerful god is perfectly capable of authoring and enforcing any law he/she/it sees fit. However, if those laws are incompatible with our notions of justice, then we've no basis for calling them "just", do we? They are simply laws because "god" deems them so, and that's that.
Zondy: "...no matter what you think you know without regeneration you can’t see God."
But one can be "regenerated" in any number of directions, to see any number of gods. How do you know that smoking paiute isn't the ticket to seeing the true god(s)? How do you know that you should not be "regenerating" yourself to be a Hindu, to worship the one true god Krishna? You see, your concept of "regeneration" seems to be nothing more than a synonym for changing your beliefs. Of course, you take that to mean "seeing" your particular deity, but your religion is only one of many. Tell me know you know it's the right one before you "regenerate" yourself to believe that it is.
I was addressing you. What other people have said does not change the fact that the argument you were attacking was fictitious (or, at best, only held by an unspecified minority).
Zondy: "I think I have done my *prerequisite* studies. I probably would have joined in on this site many years ago (if I had of known about it) after leaving a Christian-Club and reasoned along side of you."
I have no idea how extensively you've studied, so I'll just take your word on that for now. Since you attribute your conversion to a "radical" experience, it would seem that your change of heart was independent of reason anyway. In fact, you seem to be saying that if you were to base your assessment on reason alone, you would be agreeing with us. Is that a fair statement?
If that is the case, is there any point in discussing beliefs? If you claim that the missing ingredient is some kind of mystical experience, which cannot be experienced second-hand (i.e. via description from you), and we do not share that experience, should we not simply bid each other adieu? Is there some reason we should just take your word for it?
Zondy: "Justice and punishment: That's not a red herring."
Maybe straw man is a better term. Call it what you will. You were arguing as though we claimed that disagreeing with a law was sufficient to grounds to break it. As nobody was making that claim, it was a waste of time to make that case.
Zondy: "Crucifixion and burning people alive are beyond my notion of justice but they exist. 'is *just* according to *any* interpretation we can give to the notion of justice' - within your cultural constraints. Everyone here seems to be from the USA."
Okay, let's nail it down to one society, then. How about yours? In YOUR society, is it just to torture somebody? Under what conditions would it be justified to subject somebody to, say, 50 years of continual torture?
Zondy: "Can't anyone here say, you have looked at the evidence and you are a Christian, we can cope with that?"
I'll do you one better than that. I don't care if you've looked at the evidence. You can believe in Christianity for any old reason you want to and it's okay with me. I still disagree with you, of course, and I will tell you exactly *why* I disagree with you, but you are entitled to believe whatever you want. You are also entitled to not listen to a word I say. When it stops being okay with me is when believers try to force their views on others via threats, accusations, and misinformation.
Zondy, if you are studied as you have suggested in the past, then you of course understand there are varying levels of "evidence" which people use to support their belief(s).
tr.v. ev·i·denced, ev·i·denc·ing, ev·i·denc·es - "To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove. To support by testimony; attest."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evidence
Claiming a label "christian" without imposing ones belief on others, is the mark of someone who is tolerant. I personally don't have a problem with someone declaring themselves a "fill in the blank". However, when dialoging with others, and using the word "evidence" as support to persuade, its deceptive unless one portrays the level or threshold they are willing to accept as "evidence". Many religionists were taught "god", and their only evidence is the "testament" of another, hence, the "Old Testament" and "New Testament" of which many anonymous writers attested to as evidenciary.
On that thought, "any" attesting can be accepted as evidence, any "person" can state that they don't believe in a "god", or the factual basis of the "bible", and their statement is just as truthfully honest as one who "claims" or attests to the bibles' divine writings, etc. Its called hearsay...
Hearsay, is not accepted in many countries' courts of law, as the testaments are non-verifiable... basically, nothing but rumor. Furthermore, justice could not be served, in any sane and honest court of law without the need for "evidence", beyond a "reasonable" doubt. God, fails that test, as proposed via hearsay by some of humanity.
You seemed to have suggested earlier that lying is not acceptable, but go on to ask others "why" lying is "wrong".
Deception.
Either cognizantly, or ignorantly, in either case, is wrong. Why, because perception is reality, and when someone attempts to warp another persons' reality, they are infringing on another persons' right to mental freedom, and peace.
Hearsay, i.e., the bible as godly inspired or the actual written words of a god, etc., is nothing less than deception, when presented as evidence, stronger than hearsay. The tragedy, many on this site, seem to convey, is there are those who were provided "hearsay", as the "stronger" evidence, for which to build ones' life.
Zondy: "Can't anyone here say, you have looked at the evidence and you are a Christian, we can cope with that?"
Zondy, hearsay, can't be looked at, critiqued, analyzed, or empirically vetted with rigorous tests. Hearsay, is an attestment from another person, without empirical evidence. Therefore, I propose this statement...
"you have listened or read, what others have presented to you as fact, and although there is zero empirical evidence for their statements, you accepted their statements as "fact", and chose to accept the label "christian"." And, yes, I can cope with honesty. How about you?
Zondy,
I was looking for your answer to the Webmasters question, "what heinous sins have you committed that warrant horrific torture for all eternity?"
and all I could find was this:
"The punishment for crime is in direct relationship to the law, whether or not the criminal agrees with what the law should be. A criminal may take complete pleasure in their crimes and not fathom why the law treats a certain crime a certain way. ...Just because something goes beyond what I am comfortable believing doesn’t mean it is make-believe."
- but why would someone feeling this way then turn around and worship those law makers?
The only thing that gives the law makers any 'right' to execute their laws is the fact that they usually have the power to enforce their chosen punishments.
Might is not Right.
Are you saying we should all just accept the bullying of the super-tyrant just because he is tougher than us?
Without laws there would be no 'crime' (that's from the bible).
Any Law is an invention, except the Laws of Nature (physics, etc.)
If god is all-powerful he can break his law to show mercy.
Unrelenting merciless torture for eternity can only be of an absolute malevolence.
That is not worthy of worship.
So it may be that bible-god is real and that I am going to hell for eternity (lol), but that doesn't make it right.
I don't deserve it - nobody does.
God is, and always has been, perfect isn't he?
Then why couldn't he be satisfied with that, instead of creating us in the first place, knowing the fate most of us would be condemned to?
Why? - because he is absolutely malevolent.
- either that or he doesn't exist... at least not the bible-god.
Maybe you can answer my question to David?
Not all of us here are atheist (the original post in this thread is by a Deist). You don’t have to ignore your ‘supernatural’ experiences to be welcome here, but how do they match up to the god of merciless malevolence in the bible – the mastermind of eternal hellfire?
How do you know what you experienced was bible-god?
If you were born and raised in Afghanistan or Iran you would assume it to be muslim-god just the same...
Do us a favor---can you please use some original material?... I mean, even if it, also, ends up being a bunch of subjective religio-tripe, at least it'll be something we haven't heard a bazillion times before. Well...maybe.