Free at last...

Sent in by Jason

From the first day I was able to be away from home as a newborn child, I attended church. My parents are Christians, and my mother’s parents are Christians and they believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. The vast majority of friends I ever had up until college were other kids that went to church with me.

Growing up, we were taught that it was best to marry another Christian, so I did. Though we both lived pretty loosely at the time of our initial meeting, my wife and I never lost hold of the faith and traditions instilled within us. Upon marrying, my wife and I both made concerted efforts to try to live a more godly life and seemed to succeed at doing so.

We have had four children (the oldest being nearly 9 years old) and have raised them the same way we were, attending church, and obeying the rules and regulations set forth by the infallible Bible give to us by the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. As we were likewise taught, we have warned our children of disobedience to us, and by extension God, as well as the eternal consequences of sinful decisions. Then something happened.

A few years ago, my wife’s brother (who at the time was struggling with his own faith as he was unable to defend it from seemingly easy questions about the inerrancy of the Bible and the nature of God) introduced me to a document I believe he had found online. If you were to visualize a lifetime of Christian beliefs as a tall, elaborate house of cards, this document was the equivalent of someone lightly bumping into the table upon which it stands. The cards didn’t come tumbling down, but the whole thing shook precariously for a bit. This document was a thorough study on many other Christ-like deities and respective belief systems including many that predated Christianity, which shared many of the same properties like a messiah-like figure miraculously conceived, of virgin birth, who was crucified, and raised from the dead (to name only a few). At that moment, I felt a profound sense of doubt about my beliefs, which unfortunately, I immediately sublimated due to the possible ramifications of losing my faith that quickly ran through my head. I thought that if I were to un-convert, my life would be inexorable changed, my physical family would disown me up to and including being written out of the will and my spiritual family would sever contact and friendly communications with me.

So, like a sheep I continued plotting the course with which I had been indoctrinated my entire life. Then within the past year, as my wife and I would sit and listen to Bible class stories and teachings, she would point out scripture to me that was never taught because it was either clearly contradictory or difficult to explain. Over the months we began to look more into the discrepancies and tyrannical nature of the Old Testament God of the Bible and were scared with what we found. The more we investigated the more unsettling it became. To truly understand how unsettling it was, you have to realize that both my wife and I could name all of the books of the Old & New Testament by the age of five. We could quote book, chapter, and verse for most of our beliefs as adolescents. We were taught (cynically) about other religions and how to answer their questions. We attended lectures, gospel meetings, and special services just to bolster the knowledge of our faith.

But what most people within a religion do not realize is that they have been taught to think from within a sphere of existing predefined conclusions. If God can never contradict Himself, then whatever logical gymnastics you perform within the constraints of that sphere to explain a contradiction will be just fine as long as the conclusion will never be that He had been contradictory. This explains the ridiculous Christian explanations you may hear or read about while studying to break free from a Christian faith. Unfortunately, this means that a believer who has been thus affected and controlled will never leave the tenacious grip of a religious belief system. Once someone seeking the honest truth will remove those constraints on free thought, it is very easy to debunk the myth of the Bible being an inerrant, God-breathed ancient book containing everything man needs to live and be acceptable in His sight.

With the help of some early doubts and especially my wife, we very recently took off the blinders. When faced with the choice to take the blue or red pill, we took the red one to see how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

Despite the liberating feeling of being utterly convinced we are doing the right thing, we still have to deal with the familial and social ramifications of this radical change in our lives. One can’t live ingrained in a conservative, Bible-Belt Christian society and not have exit wounds while extricating themselves from the mess. Even my boss is a member of the church we used to attend, so we still have many things to overcome. Still, I can tell you this: Neither, I, or my wife, or any of my children will ever life their lives in fear of a tyrannical, immature, jealous, vindictive master of the universe that watches our every move and is ready to condemn us to eternal torment for lack of obedience. My family and I will strongly challenge any religious ideas brought to us by tradition, ascribed authority, or revelation.

Free at last. Free at last.

253 comments:

1 – 200 of 253   Newer›   Newest»
ABarton said...

I am getting quite concerned at how many people are buying this pagan origins of Christianity hype.
I really think the academia should get together and realize how their respective fields are being abused by people with malign intent to decieve.

gimmeadrinkawater said...

Barton:
huh?

gimmeadrinkawater said...

Jason:
this is refreshing and starts my day off. Many many congratulations to you!

billybee said...

Christians are still doing it today.....I especially noticed (Back in my Believer days) how the church was constantly absorbing whatever cultural trend was happening at the time. From music to fashion etc. The old timers bitch about the "younger generation" and forget that there was a time when THEY were the "new wine" of gods last great movement before the "end". Same shit, different day.

.:webmaster:. said...

From Wikipedia:

In the early centuries of Christian history, various groups denied the divinity of Jesus. The Adoptionists taught that Jesus was born fully human, and was adopted as God's Son when John the Baptist baptised him (Mark 1:10) because of the life he lived. Another group, known as the Ebionites, taught that Jesus was not God, but the human Moshiach (messiah, anointed) prophet promised in the Old Testament. Arianism affirmed that Jesus was divine, but taught that he was nevertheless a created being ("there was when he was not"), less divine than God the Father.

Some of these views could be described as Unitarianism (although that is a modern term) in their insistence on the one-ness of God. These views, which directly affected how one understood the Godhead, were declared heresies by the Council of Nicaea. Throughout much of the rest of the ancient history of Christianity, Christologies that denied Christ's divinity ceased to have a major impact on the life of the church.

In the modern era, a number of denominations have rejected the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity, including the Christadelphians and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Mainstream Christian churches usually regard these groups as modern versions of the Arian heresy.

.:webmaster:. said...

Also from Wikipedia:

The early Christians first defined exactly how Jesus is related to God the Father in the fourth century. However, this definition had taken a long time to formulate. Many of the Christological controversies of the first four centuries of the common era had direct implications for later thinking about how the human and divine are related within the person of Jesus.

The Christological positions known as Arianism, Adoptionism, and Ebionitism - groups that in one manner or another denied the divinity of Christ - and other groups, in particular those that adhered to Docetism and Gnosticism, which denied the humanity of Christ - led the fourth and fifth-century Christians to affirm that Jesus was both fully divine and fully human.

The Christological controversies came to a head at the First Council of Nicaea (325), at which the church defined the persons of the Godhead and their relationship with one another. The decisions made at Nicaea were ratified at the First Council of Constantinople (381), after several decades of ongoing controversy during which the work of Athanasius and the Cappadocian Fathers were influential. The language used was that the one God exists in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit); in particular it was affirmed that the Son was homoousios (of one substance) with the Father. The Creed of the Nicene Council made statements about the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus, thus preparing the way for discussion about how exactly the divine and human come together in the person of Christ (Christology).

Rick said...

@ abarton

They are not "buying into pagain origins" they are discovering the history of Christian roots. Of course you can choose to ignore it in order to continue believing, but then that just makes you a bald faced liar rather than an ignorant dupe.

As far as the respective academia fields coming together - yes, please, insist that this happen within the deep circles of your cult. Nothing destroys religion faster than a real search for the truth from outside biblical sources.

Anonymous said...

All this talk is somewhat frustrating. Is it so hard to understand that Jesus is LORD? Why do people have to conflate all these other stories about pagan and this religion and that. The bible makes it easy to see.. If you have trouble understanding that's because you haven't been to church. To all these people that claim "there is no god" or that Jesus is the same as early pagan believers, I have one question. When was the last time you set foot in a church? You are not spiritually healthy. You claim to be reasonable, logical, scientific minded but what is your scientific explanation for the universe and human beings. Even if there were evolution (God never said we don't evolve) and even if there was a big bang (God is free to use whatever method He chooses to create the world), then what do you explain CAUSED the big bang? Even if you have an answer for that than what caused that? Eventually trace your logic back far enough and answer me this ONE question. What is the first uncaused cause? That my friends is the Lord and savior God Almighty.

I'm fighting a battle to save souls.

ABarton said...

Rick, that was quite some outburst. I'm not sure were all that venom comes from. Anyway, my concern is not a Christian one but an academic one. The idea of pagan origins of Christianity is just not supported or true. From my sampling of these claims I turn to the classical sources they cite and find that its all a load of hot air. The idea of rising saviours, 12 disciples, virgin births are not found in these cults that these conspiracy theorists who put up these websites or find some cheap publishing house to publish their material that has no scholarly consensus at all.

I understand some people are ex-Christians and want to find some trump card to slap those who remain Christians with, but not with this nonsense. Persisting in holding onto these makes you no better than a fundamentalist who believes God put dinosaurs into the fossil layer to test the faithful.

A.B.

Gia said...

I had a similar journey as you did. I now have been studying religion for over 10 years. What's fascinating is the Egyptian religion! So much to learn there! The "SUN" walks on water. Does it not? It does! Amen Rah (one of the first Jesus) End your prayer with his name Amen to deliver your prayers to god. Sound familiar? When someone says Amen OR Rah Rah Rah, they are praying to an Egyptian god. He's the eye on the back of the dollar bill too. Enjoy your journey into TONS of knowledge. Try not to be too bitter about all the lies. Just realize most people "know not what they do."
Gia***<3
PS: There's tons of support in the Freethinking community.
myspace.com/awlheart

Thackerie said...

Anonymous, you're fighting a losing battle. Are you a troll or just so ignorant that you haven't noticed the name of this website. It's EX-christian - ex as in former but no longer. We've heard it all before, used to believe it and don't any longer. Get it?

Oh, and about your question as to whether we've ever been to church - Yes we have. In fact, quite a few used to stand up at the front of the church as pastors and spew the same twaddle you're typing.

Anonymous said...

Anony said:

"Eventually trace your logic back far enough and answer me this ONE question. What is the first uncaused cause?"

What 'caused' God? Why does the 'logic' dictate that the first uncaused cause must be supernatural? If 'God' can just 'be', so can the natural universe.

Anonymous said...

start quote
Even if you have an answer for that than what caused that? Eventually trace your logic back far enough and answer me this ONE question. What is the first uncaused cause?
end quote

WOW! You are SO RIGHT!

You follow the chain back and keep looking for a cause and keep looking... so, who created your god? Seriously!
Obviously you have to keep following this chain of cause, right?

Oh wait, Quantum physics has observed effects without cause, and effects prior to cause. So, within a completely scientific worldview, there are observable, testable, and repeatable causeless effects.

If you can provide observable, testable, and repeatable evidence of god (NOT TESTIMONY, that is OPINION) I will gladly believe.

stronger now said...

From wikipedia:"However, some prominent early Christians, e.g. Irenaeus and Justin Martyr actually acknowledged the existence of parallels, complaining that the earlier religions had copied Christian religion and practices, before Jesus was even born, as some form of diabolically inspired pre-cognitive mockery."

Abarton:"Rick, that was quite some outburst."

You must lead a sheltered life to think that what Rick said was "quite some outburst".

I thought it was pretty tame myself. Of course, I doubt any ex-christian here has yet to take the gloves off with you.

darthwonka said...

Jason,
It is hard at first to reorganize your lives without the church.

We are in a similar situation. We have had to find new ways to make friends, new ways to socialize the kids, and in many cases, find new friends since the old ones have left.

I feel a lot like the church has been a crutch for being social.. you had insta-friends by attending various bible studies.. sometimes you get closer to some of them, sometimes not.

We are getting to the point where it is getting easier and we are finding there are more secular places to meet people than we thought. I can imagine, depending on location, that this can be very daunting. There are social networks that may help to find other families in the same boat.

Some of my religious family has just backed off about things, others like to interject their non-sense whenever they feel they can.

I am happy to report that happiness and love exist outside of religion and that dumping religion has made my marriage closer and more real than ever before. These have truly been the best 3 years of our 12 years of marriage. It keeps getting better.

Best regards,
wonka

rickyusvi said...

Wow, Jason!

How are you explaining this to the kids? That’s got to be a very delicate task. I can’t imagine being 9 and having my parents break the news to me that they had been fooled and that the Christian god, the devil, heaven, and hell—our entire world view—are just fairy tales. How could my parents be so mistaken about something so profound?

Possibly worse are the existential implications. You didn’t say whether or not you still believe in any sort of afterlife, but if you don’t, it must be hard. Losing my belief in immortality has been tough for me in my 40s; i can’t imagine how such a loss would have affected me at age 9.

(Preemptive note to Christians: don’t bother telling me that heaven and hell are real. You’d be sooo wasting your breath. Really.)

Aspentroll said...

To Abarton and all the other fundies who disgrace themselves by coming into this site spouting their purely delusional and brainwashed views, I have this to say:
What about all the people of the world who do not share your particular myth? Check it out, christianity is a small minority when it comes to the beliefs of the other people of the world.
You are kind of waisting your time here on this site.
The whole world needs you out there spewing your BS.
I suggest you all head over to Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other muslim countries and tell them how to believe. Your bodies will be shipped back in two pieces, your head and the rest of you in a body bag. Be thankful that all that can happen to you here is that you will get your silly asses kicked a bit.

Dan Marvin said...

God exists you can be certain of that

The watchmaker


Vote Ron Paul 2008

Have a great day all

stronger now said...

Dan,

That video compares a watch to self reproducing organisms that change over time. It is a false analogy.

Also, It is a false dichotomy to say that if evolution were proven fallacious that makes a god real. It could be that neither proposition is correct.

I was thinking of supporting Ron Paul, But now....

Anonymous said...

I am getting quite concerned at how many people are buying this pagan origins of Christianity hype.

What really worries me, abarton, is that so many of us have been ignorant of that fact for centuries.

Jason,
Good luck. And I have to say that as hard as it may be for you, you probably know how lucky you are to have your wife by your side. It is incredibly painful to have a spouse in the fold.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Dan Marvin said: "God exists you can be certain of that"

Awww.....aren't you cute with your posts? I see Dan that you are back once again to fight the good fight for Jesus. You have once again given into your "Posting Addiction" by returning to "Ex-Christian.Net". I knew you would return here again someday, considering I know just how predictable christians like you are.

Wouldn't it be a shame if your God turns out to be Allah, or some other God instead of the christian God.

How are christians like you ever going to deal with it if it all turns out to be a lie?

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Aspentroll Said: "I suggest you all head over to Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other muslim countries and tell them how to believe. Your bodies will be shipped back in two pieces, your head and the rest of you in a body bag. Be thankful that all that can happen to you here is that you will get your silly asses kicked a bit."

Most American Christians are too chicken shit to go to these Muslim countries. They would rather hide their sorry SUV Asses over here in there little "American Bubble" where it is much safer for them.

Plus most American christians know deep down that if they were physically tortuured by muslims, they would reject Christ in a heartbeat if they had to face some "Real Persecution".

So "American Christians" choose to stay here in the comfort of their American Homes, and post on this site where it is safer for them because most "American Christians" can't handle nothing more severe than "Verbal Abuse".

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Aspentroll Said: "I suggest you all head over to Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other muslim countries and tell them how to believe. Your bodies will be shipped back in two pieces, your head and the rest of you in a body bag. Be thankful that all that can happen to you here is that you will get your silly asses kicked a bit."

Most American Christians are too chicken shit to go to these Muslim countries. They would rather hide their sorry SUV Asses over here in there little "American Bubble" where it is much safer for them.

Plus most American christians know deep down that if they were physically tortuured by muslims, they would reject Christ in a heartbeat if they had to face some "Real Persecution".

So "American Christians" choose to stay here in the comfort of their American Homes, and post on this site where it is safer for them because most "American Christians" can't handle nothing more severe than "Verbal Abuse".

Anonymous said...

I have been doubting my faith for two or three years and have come to the realization that there is no God as well. I had been a devout Christian for 15 years, was a worship leader in my church, lead small groups and attended a Christian University, like most of the people who post here my Xtian credentials were very legit.

I came out as an atheist to my wife and family a few months ago, though I had admitted it to myself about a year ago. It has been bitter sweet. Mentally I feel liberated and freed from the bondage of ignorance and oppression to plain truths.

My faith was rocked as I studied for my masters degree in history and realized that there were so many parallels in culture and religion through the centuries that you could see how one evolved into another. Also, the problems with ancient textual reliability is always suspect, but I was a McDowell disciple who tried to reason the bible was somehow different. Reason won out and I saw Christianity for what is was, just one of a long string of religions based on man made myths of super-heros and divine beings. No different from Greek or Hindu mythology.

But my change in beliefs has hit my family hard. I have tried to play along and believe harder for the sake of domestic peace, but I could not sit through another sermon biting my tounge. My wife thinks I have somehow 'changed' and is now in fear of me going to hell. Because I dont believe in Jesus anymore, she assumes I have nothing to live for. She is going to a "christian" counselor for help who thinks that a praying wife is a powerful tool for change in the family.

You are lucky to have a spouse who was understanding and changed with you. The pain this is causing my family is immense and the pressure to conform back into the fold is high. Ignorace is bliss, and sometimes I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.

Dan Marvin said...

Anon: "I had been a devout Christian for 15 years"

Truth is you were NEVER a Christian. I have posted this before but it is too important not to post it again:

Deconversion? Anyone that considers themselves to be past Christians, or ex Christians, or left Christianity, are fooling themselves in fact it's an oxymoron. Are you posing that you can lose your salvation? If you can lose your salvation, then what do you do with John 10:28 where Jesus says he gives eternal life and the sheep will NEVER perish? If you can lose it then Jesus should have said, "and they may perish..." or "they CAN perish." But he said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. So, will they never perish? Or can they?

A true Christian cannot turn away from God. Here is why. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Now look at 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." THEY WOULD HAVE REMAINED if they were really Christians to begin with.

Now a question for you. Are you saying that the Spirit begins the work of salvation in us and that we work it out and complete it by remaining faithful? That IS what you are saying, that we get saved and keep it by the effort of our works, right? Check this out. Galatians 3:1-3 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

Jesus taught it. He said those with eternal life will NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. " Well, will they perish or not? Jesus says those with eternal life will NEVER perish. I believe Him. Do you?

It isn't too late you are not a throw away from God. Repent today and Trust! in Jesus and you WILL have everlasting life. You are not an ex Christian or a prior Christian you are a stony ground hearer or false convert. It isn't too late!

What fruit will grow in a True Christians life:

1. Repentance - A 180 degree turn away from sinful behavior and towards Godly behavior.

2. Thankfulness - A thankful heart that is grateful for what God has done... and shows itself in a cheerful disposition.

3. Good Works - A life that becomes others centered (helping the aged, feeding the poor, teaching children, etc.) Not self centered (all free time consumed in personal hobbies and interests)

4. Fruit of the Spirit - An ever-growing capacity of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self control in the life of the believer.

5. Fruit of Righteousness - Doing the right thing according to the way God defines it in his word. Not according to the way man defines it in his own mind.

We are here to get fruit bearing Christians not decisions for Christ to fill pews.

If we understand the parable in Mark 4:3-13 then it unlocks the secret to all parables: Foolish virgin=false convert Wise virgin=Genuine conversions. The good fish, the bad fish. The man who built his house on rock and the man who built his house on sand. The one who built his house on sand is the one who hears the word of Jesus but doesn't keep them. False Convert.

6 characteristics of a False Convert:

1. Mark 4:5 - Lack depth of understanding. Immediate results impressive changes occur quickly then false convert will fall away from their faith over time and the results and changes disappear.

2. Luke 8:6 - False convert lack moisture in other words they lack the life-giving and life-sustaining power of God's word. To a false convert the Bible is dry and uninteresting and struggles with daily devotions.

3. Matthew 13:6 - False convert have no roots like a plant that dries up when the heat comes because it's roots aren't deep enough to reach water to sustain it. So is the false convert who's faith dries up where persecution comes his roots of faith don't run deep enough to reach the life sustaining water of God's word and Holy Spirit.

4. Mark 4:16 - False Converts receive the word with gladness. Hears the gospel message with gladness and really seems to latch on to it. He may express, for example, with tear filled eyes of joy. How this is the answer he's been looking for. When any test or trials comes his way, excuses become his trademark he falls away from following Jesus.

5. Matthew 13:20 - Repeats that same point false convert receive the word with joy (at first)

6. Luke 8:13 - Because they do believe for a season this is the one that fools the most people because they do believe, for a short time, the Gospel message. These false converts walk and talk a very good game. They often sincerely believe the Vital truths. That Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died a sacrificial death and rose from the earth and that he was fully man and fully God. they believe those things in their mind. When it comes time to deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Jesus into test and self sacrifice the false convert displays, slowly but surely, the truth that they never believed in their hearts. Never made that commitment to Christ and eventually becomes distracted by the worries and opportunities of life and lives for himself not Christ.

Anonymous said...

Dan,

I confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart. I was baptized and 'born again'. I was as real a christian as anyone else. What other requirements are there Dan? Even though I dont believe in Christ anymore, I detest your smug proclamitaion that anyone who has left the xtian faith was never a 'real chirstian'...Look up the 'no true Scotsman' fallicy.

But the truth is that Christianity is not real, therefore there are no 'real Christians'.

Hey Dan, let's have bible study! said...

Dan,

I fail to understand why you choose to post scripture on this site, when you know that none of us are going to take it seriously.

Dan Marvin Said for the 1,000th time: "Truth is you were NEVER a Christian."

Ok Dan, once again I will remind you:

MAT 7: 1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

So Dan, since you judge others on here, you are now going to face judgment also, because you have judged us.

Oh ye, hypocrite.

Anonymous said...

And by the way, you quoting the Bible to me is about as useful as me quoting the Book of Mormon or koran to you.

Neither are true and both so choked will logical inconsistencies and fantasy that only a fool could say in his heart "this is the word of god"

Dan Marvin said...

Anon said "I confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart."

Does God accept the repentance and sincerity of people as a means of obtaining forgiveness of sins? No, He does not. Think about it: if we appealed to God to forgive us based upon what we have done (repented), or what is in our hearts (sincerity), then we are seeking to be made right before God by our own efforts - and this amounts to pride. The fact is that our repentance and sincerity are not enough to merit forgiveness of sins. There is nothing we can do in word, deed, or heartfelt intent that will satisfy an infinitely holy God. If there were, then righteousness would be based upon what we do instead of the sacrifice of Christ (Eph. 2:21). But, Jesus did have to die because we cannot fulfill the perfect Law of God. Why? Because we have been touched by sin in our hearts, minds, and bodies.

Since we can do nothing to merit God's love and forgiveness, He is the only One left who can remove our sin. This is why God had to come down in the form of a man (John 1:1,14), in order to shed His blood, wash away our sins (Acts 22:16), and make us right before God the Father by faith (Rom. 5:1). God's holiness is too great to accept anything wrought by the heart or hand of man.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Thank you Dan, for proving me right once again.

You are so easy to predict.

What's the matter Dan, are you bored?

Is your wife not putting out or something, and you have become sexually frustrated?

I realize that man does not live on Masturbation alone.

tom said...

Ach, ye be from Scotland, laddie?

Seriously, though, we ex-Christians have been to the same kinds of churches as you. We've had the same warm fuzzy feelings when we sing hymns and raise our arms to the Lord. We were saved, just as much as you are. I used to seriously believe in god, I had accepted Jesus as my Lord and saviour, et cetera. Now I don't. No bible verse can change what actually happened in the past.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Anonymous,

Don't waste your time with brother Dan. You are talking to a prime example of a "Certified, Bonafied Lunatic".

Dan Marvin is someone who has lost complete touch with reality, and no matter what you tell him, he cannot understand you, because his cultic belief system has made him insane, and he no longer has the ability to see things from a logical point of view.

I hope that the good folks from the local "Mental Hospital" in his city are able to find him and put him back in his padded cell where he belongs.

As annoying as it is to many people, I have to admit that I for one enjoy seeing poor Dan make a fool out of himself on this site by his constant and meaningless bible chatter.

rickyusvi said...

To Dan Marvin:

STFU. Please.

What would you think of someone who tried to convince you that Finding Nemo was a true story? Well, that’s exactly how you look to us.

On top of that, telling us that we were never Christian in the first place is a display of unbelievable arrogance. As nice as it would have been never to have been suckered by Christianity, i still find it insulting for you to deny my life history. Can you read our minds? Then how can you possibly know? Did a preacher tell you? Can he read our minds?

Go away. You are not helping anyone here. You’re a waste of bandwidth and a nagging pest.

Dan Marvin said...

"What's the matter Dan, are you bored?"

No I am actually sending emails out wanna see what I am sending? OK then:

Dear Can't Spell,

I am writing to you out of concern for our country. We are in trying times, as we approach 2008 and a new presidential election, we face uncertainty in knowing who will lead our great nation into the future.

One individual who stands above all other, the Thomas Jefferson of our day, has caused me to take notice. I would like to take this opportunity to introduce you to the man who I strongly believe is meant to guide us as our next President: Ron Paul.

Congressman Paul (R-TX) is a 10-term member of the US House of Representatives. As a physician, he has specialized in obstetrics for 40 years, delivering over 4,000 babies. He served his country for five years as a flight surgeon in the US Air Force. Dr. Paul is running for President in 2008 to defend our divinely-inspired Constitution.

Ron Paul is pro-life, a staunch believer of family values, and opposed to federal funding of stem cell research. Dr. Paul wants to protect our national sovereignty, improve our economy and take a firm stance on illegal immigration. He has worked tirelessly to defend and restore the rights of all Americans, born and unborn alike. Ron Paul is the champion of liberty to practice our faith free from the encroachment of government.

He has been married to his wife Carol for over 50 years, and has been blessed with five children, 18 grandchildren and one great-grandchild. He is the most principled person I have ever heard, incredibly honest and genuine, and a man of great integrity. Ron Paul has great reverence for the Natural Rights.

Please take a moment to watch a brief introductory video,

* Ron Paul Introductory Video

I would also like to invite you to visit teaparty07.com. "This December 16th, American citizens will dump millions of dollars into the Ron Paul presidential campaign to protest the oppressive and unconstitutional inflation tax - which has enabled a flawed foreign policy, a costly war and the sacrificing of our liberties here at home."

Thank you for your time, and thank you for your willingness to consider Dr. Ron Paul for President. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me or RonPaul2008.com.

Sincerely,
Dan Marvin, Supporter of Dr. Ron Paul
The Ron Paul 2008 Meetup Group,

Please note, I am not affiliated with Dr. Ron Paul nor his campaign. I am simply a concerned American wishing to make a positive future for all of us. For more information, visit RonPaul2008.com

Dan Marvin said...

My wife has stopped having sex with me, plus I am bored, and I am tired of having to masturbate all of the time. So I have decided out of frustration to come back onto "Ex-Christian.Net" and irritate all of you heathens with more of my constant bible babbling.

Perhaps I need to quote "Ephesians 5:22-24,33 to my wife about how she is supposed to be submissive to me.

steve said...

Liberation follows from accepting life as it comes, not from depending on an imagined deity to make it work for you, or from "thinking from a sphere of existing predefined conclusions."
The willingness to accept personal revelation as universal truth is at the heart of irrationalism.

Enjjpt said...

I'd vote for Dr. Dre or Dr. Pepper before Dr. Paul.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Sorry Dan, but I have interest in voting for someone who has a "Right Winged" agenda.

Even though I am not associated with him, I really wish a "Libertarian like "Jessie Ventura" would run for president.

Please vote for the legalization of marijuana and prostitution.

I'd love to stay and chat with you old pal, however there is life outside of the internet and other ancient beliefs.

However, I promise to return in the near future.

Happy Preaching!

rickyusvi said...

Dan, i see that you quoted scripture in your effort to prove that 42 years of my life didn’t happen the way i think it did. Now, what can you do to convince me that the author of John, who wrote at least 1800 years before i was born, could read my mind?

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

CORRECTION FROM MY PREVIOUS POST:
Sorry Dan, but I "DO NOT" have any interest in voting for someone who has a "Right Winged" agenda.

I couldn't leave this site without having to correct my typo. Maybe one of these days I will take the time to proof read my errors before I hit the "Publish Your Comment Button".

I'm sure "Dan the man" will think that was "The Holy Spook" inside of me that caused me to type that statement incorrect.

However, that can't be possible since I wasn't saved in the first place.

Right Dan?

Adios for now!

swifty32661 said...

What Dan said about Ron Paul:

"and opposed to federal funding of stem cell research."

Well, I guess that means Ron won't be getting my support.

Mike

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Dan Marvin Said: "No I am actually sending emails out wanna see what I am sending? OK then"

Hey Dan! That's some pretty sleezy Pornography that you sent me.

Thanks!

A sincere question for Dan Marvin said...

Dan,

Why don't you support "Mit Romney"?

I figured he would be more your type of guy.

Dan Marvin said...

Because We Disagree on Iraq, Stem-Cell Research, Social Security, Line-Item Veto,Energy, and even God. (He believes in a different god because he is Mormon)

Here is a fun test to see who is your candidate. I took the test and the winner was Ron Paul, Score: 46

Take the quiz

Dan Marvin said...

I took it again and Ron Paul got a 63 this time

stronger now said...

Danny boy!

Still quoteing out of that book written by wicked liars, I see.

Still can't answer my question can you.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I took the test said...

Ok, here are my results:

John Edwards
Score: 13



Rudy Giuliani
Score: 13



Barack Obama
Score: 13



Hillary Clinton
Score: 13


Joe Biden
Score: 13


Dennis Kucinich
Score: 12


Chris Dodd
Score: 12


Tom Tancredo
Score: 11


Mitt Romney
Score: 10


Duncan Hunter
Score: 9


John McCain
Score: 7


Ron Paul
Score: 6


Bill Richardson
Score: 6


Mike Gravel
Score: 5


Mike Huckabee
Score: 2


Fred Thompson
Score: 2

Anonymous said...

" My wife has stopped having sex with me"

Ah, Dan... and who can blame her?

I know you didn't say that, Dan. But given the character flaws you've shown on this and other forums, I wouldn't be shocked if that prophesy became true one day.

Dan Marvin said...

"I know you didn't say that, Dan."

You are right I didn't say that and proof is my wife is pregnant with our fourth child. God is blessing us so much and I pray and hope the same for all of you

rickyusvi said...

<off-topic extent="way">
Is Ron Paul really a libertarian?
</off-topic>

stronger now said...

From Dan's blog:

"I welcome all comments although I have some quirky rules like:

1.Anyone who advertises their anti-God blog I will delete it"

Yeah! No way you "truth" can take serious inquiry, or opposing views.

"2.Any cussing or blasphemy, I will delete it."

Shit.

"3 Anything contrary to glorifying God will be deleted"

So much for welcoming all comments!

"4 Anything that causes someone to stumble with their walk with Jesus I will delete it (even something I write)"

So that's why he keeps pesterin' us at our site. He runs such a tight ship even he doesn't want to be a part of it.

I don't blame you Dan, I would want to hang out with you either.

"5 Anything else that I see fit to delete I will"

Yeah! You wouldn't wan't someone telling you anything you don't want to hear. Like how to think logically and such.

Answer this said...

Dan,

I would like for you to answer one question for me. I will be greatly appreciative if you can answer it with something other than what I have come up with. Ok, here goes.... How do you know that Jesus said those things? I mean the gospels were not written by any contemporaries of his and some of the writers copied off others. This is a proven fact. So explain that away.

Taylor said...

I'd like to take a moment and clarify some of the things that are being said about Rep. Ron Paul, and especially emphasize why a vote for him is most definitely not a vote for someone who will attempt to impose Christian morals upon the country.

Yes, Paul is quite Christian, but just about everyone on this site was at one time or another; that's why it's called Ex-Christian.

Dan Marvin seems intent upon focusing on Ron Paul's "family values" and such, which is usually just coded language for "I'm a candidate who will senselessly restrict your freedoms in order to conform to 'moral standards'". I can't imagine where he got this idea, honestly. Paul is quite opposed to the restriction of freedoms.

He is pro-life, which for some people rules him out as a candidate entirely. I understand, but other than that he supports personal freedom in pretty much every possible action.

Someone said earlier that they wish a libertarian would run and win; well, in my opinion, Rep. Paul is the closest America is likely to get to a true libertarian presidential candidate for a while.

As I'm sure everyone here is all aware, Christians can twist just about anything and anybody to support their own beliefs. In this comment thread, Ron Paul has been twisted in this manner to look extremely Christian and extremely concerned with Christian issues. This is not the case, and I hope that those of you who have been put off from Rep. Paul by Dan Marvin's comments will reexamine him from a more secular point of view and, hopefully, will see that Ron Paul is the only candidate who will respect all of our freedoms, including freedom of religion.

Taylor said...

Oh, and I'm sorry to double-post, but about Paul not supporting federal funding of stem cell research: Ron Paul doesn't support federal funding of, well, just about everything. He feels it's better that the private sector fund the research (as well as just about everything else, like healthcare) than tie it up in government bureaucracy and waste the taxpayer's money on something which can be handled far more efficiently by a private research lab.

trancelation said...

Dan:

The Bible itself states that a person can be an ex-Christian:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

*shrugs* Sorry, buddy.

boomSLANG said...

Obstinate Christian(need I say more?) is back with...Truth is you were NEVER a Christian. I have posted this before but it is too important not to post it again: Deconversion? Anyone [who] considers themselves to be past Christians, or ex Christians, or left Christianity, are fooling themselves in fact it's an oxymoron.

Like clockwork---of course the above assertion is utterly absurd. It goes like this, Marvin: We once believed something to be true; now we don't. Now, is that really such a hard concept to grasp? Let's see---Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Toothfairy, the Stork brings babies, invisible playmates.....you once believed it; now you don't. Marvin, no one can tell another person what they believe to be true, and what they don't believe to be true. NO rational-minded grown man or woman would attempt to tell another adult that they are mistaken---that, "yes!...you really do still believe the stork brings babies, you are just fooling yourself when you say you don't believe it!!!" Silly.

Let's take it a step further: "Ex-wives".

Are ALL women who were formerly married to abusive spouses "fooling themselves"???? Were they never "truly married"??? Did the women who got brave enough to leave their physically-abusive-asshole-husbands "not have enough Faith"??? Finally, is the term "ex-wife" an "oxymoron"??? lol! Well of course not, dufuss.

Obstinate Christian asks...Are you posing that you can lose your salvation?

Oh, cutts!...all of the time you spend on this blog?... and you STILL don't get it? STICK IN MEMORY BANK: I'm posing that there IS NO "salvation" to "lose". IS...NONE.

Even if such a thing existed and needed to be "atoned" for, a "True Christian" once told me that "salvation is a free gift"; that there's "NOTHING required" to obtain it. Then have a half of a day later, this person ate crow when they said that, yes, there ARE requirements, and listed them. Silly confused Christians.

Obstinate Christain...If you can lose your salvation, then what do you do with John 10:28 where Jesus says he gives eternal life and the sheep will NEVER perish?

What do I, personally, do with it? I tell you to shove it up your @$$, and go find your flock.

Question for Dan Marvin about marriage and God said...

DAN MARVIN'S QUOTE:
((( You are right I didn't say that and proof is my wife is pregnant with our fourth child. God is blessing us so much and I pray and hope the same for all of you )))

This question that I wanted to ask Dan is a repost of mine from another thread. It was originally addressed to another christian who posts on here, however they never did reply back to it.

This is a serious question that I wanted to ask Dan Marvin, and since Dan is married I want to hear Dan's perspective on this in regards to God and marriage.

Tell me Dan, how come God would never bless any of my relationships with women? I have been engaged twice to two different girls in the past. I met both of them in church, and both of them cheated on me. I have never been content as a single person, and I burn in lust.

Paul does say that if you cannot control your sexual lust that it is better to marry. However, God never did seem to care about the fact that I was burning in lust, because he never did anything to fix either one of my engagements after my ex fiances both cheated on me, nor has God has ever made an effort to lead the right woman to me.

Even though I served him faithfully for years he never has done anything to bless me with a woman, he never has done anything to remove my desire to marry one day, and he has never done anything to remove my sexual lust. So as a result I fell into sexual sin after keeping myself pure for many years.

I was someone who served God faithfully in the church, I use to read the word, went out witnessing for Christ, and I fasted and prayed several times back when I use to go up into the mountains alone to seek his will. Even though I thought I knew "God's" will for me according to his holy word, I was always wrong. It seems that God cannot make himself clear to me.

Now explain to me why it is that you seem to be one of the "Chosen One's" who God has looked upon with favor by giving you a wife? What did you do that was so special? I thought God was no respecter of persons. If you can have a wife, why can't I have one too? God never would provide that answer to me for some reason. He's always remained silent, and has never revealed anything to me. I busted my butt trying to serve God for years, and that's the thanks I got from him.

I was told by several other christians that I need to put my faith in Jesus and be content with Jesus alone. Those same christians who told me that are also happily married, so why should I listen to them? Any christian who is married has no business telling a discontent single person like myself to be content with Jesus alone. They are hypocrites for saying that, and they are not qualified to tell me such rubbish.

Because if that were true that Jesus is enough, then why get married in the first place? God did say in Genesis that it is not good for man to be alone. He sure must think that it is good for me to be alone, and he must think it is good for me to burn in continuous lust and commit sexual sin.

I wanted to be faithfully married, and do it God's way, however God just doesn't seem to care enough about me to bless my relationships with women by not answering my prayers and leaving me to burn in lust. No thanks to him.

So tell me Dan, why are you married? Isn't Jesus enough? Did you get married because you were not content with Jesus alone?

I get so sick and tired of christians who come onto this site who are happily married. I would be happy with God too if he had blessed me with a good wife. It must be nice to lay there at night with a good woman in your arms.

I'm sure that you will say that even if God took your wife away from you, that you would still remain faithful to him. That's easy for someone like you to say that, because it has not happened to you.

Well, after years and years of struggling with getting a direct answer from God, I finally gave up and left christianity, because your so loving Jesus never did anything to help me with my sexual struggle, and as a result, I had sex with a married woman, and it broke up her family.

None of that would've ever happened if Jesus had been faithful to me like I had been faithful to him by allowing me to have a good christian wife. He says that he will not put more on me than I can handle, well because he never would allow my realtionships with other women to work out that is why I had sex with a married woman. God apparently didn't care about her family either. He knew how to stop that from happening, and don't start with me about "Free Will". I expected God to be faithful according to his word, however he was never faithful to me. It's not my fault that God never delivered the goods.

It must be nice being one of God's favorites Dan since God has supposedly blessed you with a wife. I wouldn't know since God doesn't seem to care about what I desire.

How would you like to be 37 years old and lonely? Don't say that you understand me Dan, because you don't.

Please explain why you think God has not given me a wife, and why he has not done anything to remove my desires to be married and why God has not done anything to remove my sexual lusts?

My walk with God was genuine. I was not as fortunate as you and other married christians are who love to come onto this site bragging about how God has blessed you with a wonderful spouse and family. Not all of us were as fortunate to be blessed with a wonderful spouse and family, and I don't think that is fair of your God to leave some of us out by depriving us of the same thing.

Anonymous said...

Dan says,
You are right I didn't say that and proof is my wife is pregnant with our fourth child. God is blessing us so much and I pray and hope the same for all of you.

Lorena responds
I know a few happy couples with 3 or more children who are also happy, Dan. Who's blessing them?

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Dan Marvin Said: You are right I didn't say that and proof is my wife is pregnant with our fourth child. God is blessing us so much and I pray and hope the same for all of you

Are you saying that God impregnated your wife like he did Mary?

Is that how God is blessing you?

So you're saying that you didn't have sex with her, God did.

Wow, you christians really do give God all the credit and glory in everything. Including giving him credit for knocking up your wife for the 4th time.

Anonymous said...

To mr anon that said "who created the big bang' and 'evolution', I ask... 'who created God'.
That usually gets a 'valid point' from most people.

I have to sound off a bit. I never attended church as a child, maybe 10 times in my youth. Still, my parents installed a fear of God. I was afraid of anything that might suggest devil influence, I feared the evil, not that I really believe in a hell.
As I got older, I went to a Catholic high school. I was actually embarrassed that people would think I was a bad person for not belonging to a church. I had an interest in religion though.

When I entered college, I studies history, I also discovered that a lot of what I was told was bogus, so I went back over my life trying to confirm what was real and what wasn't. The more I studied christianity, the wholes were many, and as a historical document, it's obviously written with a bias of proving a point.
For example, the virgin birth, the whole christmas story... it's all there to try to prove Jesus as the Mesiah! They weren't from Bethlehem, but the prophecy said that the messiah had to be from the line of David(hard if God is the father), and be born in the city of David. So the writer of Mathew/Luke came up with a way of putting him there.
Other bits are funny.. the original hebrew text for the prophecy of the virgin birth actually doesn't say virgin. Read it, it says that the 'young woman' is with child, and by the time the child is old enough to eat curds and honey, those you are at war with(in this case, it was Judea at war with Israel and Assyria.. yup... that's what it was) will fall! It wasn't even a prophecy of the messiah! But this was tranlated wrong into greek.. and it's greek that the Matthew and Luke used for their source, so the Greek said Virgin, but the Hebrew said Young Woman. Either way, it's bogus.

Also.. I've seen nowhere except in John where it states that Jesus IS God. In the other gospels, he states that no one will know the time of the rapture, not even the son, only the father. Does it make sense that he would talk to himself? Forgive them Me, because they know not what they do? God came to earth as a man so that he could sacrifice himself on the cross to save the world, then ressurrect himself to sit at the right hand of himself in heaven?
Why do you call me great? Only the father is great?

The suggestion that Jesus IS GOD is and has always been blasphemy to me!

The problem is that when I read the old testement, the instanity, the tyranny, the evil that is done in the name of God. Killing every man woman and child, even chasing them down as they fled(Joshua), though many towns mentioned in Joshua were already rubble at the time(according to archeologists), it suggests that many of these old stories were made up to explain why there was a detroyed town, or why thre were certain caanonites with us today(some helped with Jerico, so they and their family were spared so they are still with us).

In short, I'm not sure which is worse!

However, I do NOT want to tell anyone what to believe. I attend church because my wife wants me to. It drived me crazy, I can't understand how all these grown people can believe this stuff... but they WANT to. My wife is an example... and this guy as well. He didn't want this house of cards to fall... my wife has built her life around the foundation of God. Granted, she's a very liberal christian and doesn't believe in Hell, believes in evolution, and things the great flood was stolen from the epic of gilgamesh and has a distate for right wing side of the religion as I do, but to lose that house of cards, to have any doubt about the death and ressurrection would destroy who she is.

My point.. if this is who you are, that's great, I don't want to shatter your world. I chose to build my foundtation of logic and reason. The more I research the origins of the scritures, and of the history of the church, the more I doubt it. I can't find a single bit of evidence to suggest otherwise... other than what? My wifes answer was always "well, a group of people must have really believed this, so it has to be true". Sure, and lots of people believe in UFO abductions and that the moon landing was fake... but just because there are die hard followers doesn't overcome logic and reason. But I'm not going to shatter her belief either.. or anyone else. I do this hear just to ramble and release steam.

I am lucky, the minister of our church, before we joined, was asked if those that didn't believe in Jesus as Lord could get into heaven. He said.."If I was born in Israel, i'd probably be Jewish, if Saudi Arabia, then I'd be Islam, how can my culture affect whether God accepts me into heaven". He even points out part in Mark where it says that people of several nations and faiths are saved.
Some churches would consider this a church of secular humanists. The minister didn't like the Passion of the christ because he thought that the message wasn't in the passion, but in his teachings.
He also didn't like the sacrifical view of Jesus for our sins, as this would suggest that God was limited in his power without a blood sacrifice. Think about it.. God can't overcome Satans stranglehold on man, or forgive man without sacrificing himself as an innocent to allow man to go to heaven?

Still, standing in church, reciting the Apostles creed, I cannot say the words "decended into hell, and was raised on the third day" because it never ever says this.

What also gets me is that it was a war among christian sects! Paul's flavor won by being accepted into Rome, and how did they get accepted? By adopting their winter and spring holidays, painting Jesus to look more like a long hard haired character from Roman mythology in appearance rather than the short wooly haired man described in the gospels(It's said that he looked strikingly like the great statue of Zeus, one of the seven ancient wonders).. and even moving their worship day to SUNDAY.. the say of worship for Apollo the Sun god. They morphed elements of paganism into the church and made it more palatable.

In short, Jesus was a great man, he taught people many great things about how to live our lives.. you could call it how to live Gods kingdom on earth, he pointed out the hypocracy in the temples, and this likely got him killed. A great teacher, he taught the truth, and was killed for it.
But they continued on. I think of it like Monty Pythons Life of Brian.. "NO! THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING AT ALL!" The deciples never got it, and the whole story got crazy after this death. What would Jesus say?

I'm tired. going to bed, thanks for letting me rant... but I'll back up everything I said and document it if you like.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Blessed is the man who is fertile and does not have to use Viagra.

Dan Marvin said...

Sometimes we wonder, "What did I do to deserve this?" or "Why did God have to do this to me?" Here is a wonderful explanation, parable or hyperbole!

A daughter is telling her Mother how everything is going wrong, she's failing algebra, her boyfriend broke up with her and her best friend is moving away.

Meanwhile, her Mother is baking a cake and asks her daughter if she would like a snack, and the daughter says, "Absolutely Mom, I love your cake."

"Here, have some cooking oil," her Mother offers.

"Yuck" says her daughter. "How about a couple raw eggs?" "Gross, Mom!"
"Would you like some flour then? Or maybe baking soda?"

"Mom, those are all yucky!"

To which the mother replies: "Yes, all those things seem bad all by themselves. But when they are put together in the right way, they make a wonderfully delicious cake! "

God works the same way. Many times we wonder why He would let us go through such bad and difficult times. But God knows that when He puts these things all in His order, they always work for good! We just have to trust Him and, eventually, they will all make something wonderful!

God is crazy about you. He sends you flowers every spring and a sunrise every morning.

Whenever you want to talk, He'll listen. He can live anywhere in the universe, and He chose your heart.

Life may not be the party we hoped for, but salvation is there for you if you humble yourself before God.

Just because I have a wife doesn't mean we have it easy, this past year my wife went through 3 count them, three brain surgeries to remove tumors from her pituitary. She had her first in February then June and then finally in July. It hasn't come back then she got pregnant and we were very excited because we thought she was through, if you know anything about the pituitary, she wasn't ovulating since Nov, 2006. Needless to say it was a wonderful surprise. I know for a fact that suffering, persecutions, trials and temptations are guarantee's in the Bible. Paul was being tortured and jailed and he always had hope and peace. Because Paul, like myself, knew that this is just the temporary situation to what God has planed for us and we eagerly wait for that faithful day of Judgment. Yes the unrepentant sinner will perish. The person that just won't stop drinking and driving and running through school zones will go to jail. The unrepentant proud sinner will perish and go to hell (God's jail) The world will be erased of evil, no more suffering no more torture no more lusting. You seem to say that it is God's fault for lusting. Try this first REPENT! Deny thy self and take up your cross and bear it for Christ and he will be there right by you side. TRUST in Jesus with your entire life and stay in HIS WORD. Do it and come back here and tell us all the glorious story of how God blessed you. Man up and stop lusting and fornicating and God will manifest Himself to you as promised in John 14:21

"Any Christian who is married has no business telling a discontent single person like myself to be content with Jesus alone." Dude, we are not all born with wives. Take up that cross because God knows what is best for you right now but that doesn't mean that it will be like that forever. He is just making a Cake. Look at Abraham, his wife didn't have her first child until she was 90 something years old. Then God said to sacrifice that boy for Him. He never stoped believing and neither should you.

Lorena "I know a few happy couples with 3 or more children who are also happy, Dan. Who's blessing them?"

God is. According to the Bible the only guarantees are persecution, temptations, and tribulations while we are here in this fallen creation. If you are avoiding anyone of those three things, consider yourself blessed.

Can't Spell "Including giving him credit for knocking up your wife for the 4th time."

Your behavior is appalling, dude.

Anonymous said...

And did I mention that no matter how you slice it... I can't get 3 days from the crucificion until the resurrection? It's Friday in Mark, Matthew and Luke, it's Thursday in John(so portray Jesus as the sacrificial passover lamb!)
Jewish days were base don sundown/sunrise, so technically.. crucified Thursday.. If you count thursday as a day, then you get Thursday, Friday and Saturday.... he was risen by sunup on Sunday...
But if it's Friday.. as Good Friday would suggest, it's just 1.5.. 2 days if you could friday, and not even 2 full nights.

Nothing makes sense.. unless.. as the poster said, you accept it all on faith and inerrant.. that all inconsistancies are to test your faith. Maybe products of the Devil.. I don't know.

Dan Marvin said...

Anon "Nothing makes sense.. unless.. as the poster said, you accept it all on faith and inerrant.. that all inconsistancies are to test your faith."

Some years ago, a lawyer by the name of Frank Morison wrote a book with the title, "Who Moved The Stone?" He set out with the purpose of disproving the resurrection, of proving that Christ did not really rise from the grave. But the book turned out to be entirely different. It is a searching study of the Scriptural story of Christ’s crucifixion, death and resurrection. He makes the unquestionable point that the resurrection is a historical fact. Lawyer-like, he disposes, one after another, of the dozens of theories invented to account for the removal of the body from the tomb. For example: the gardener took away Christ’s body so the curious would not trample his flowers, Joseph of Arimathea took away Christ's body because he regretted giving his grave to an acknowledged criminal, and Jesus recovered from a death-like faint on the cross, and pushed the stone away Himself.

imaginary sky daddy said...

I agree with the earlier poster who told Dan to stfu. It really pisses me off when I come to read about someone's de-conversion story and these christians start getting long winded with quoting scripture. It throws the thread off course big time. HEY DAN!! DO US ALL A FAVOR AND SCRAM!!

Jason: Congratulations on coming out of the mind cult. I wish you and your family all the best in your freedom from the baby jebus.

My reply to Dan Marvin's reply said...

Dan Marvin's answer to me..........."Any Christian who is married has no business telling a discontent single person like myself to be content with Jesus alone." Dude, we are not all born with wives. Take up that cross because God knows what is best for you right now but that doesn't mean that it will be like that forever. He is just making a Cake. Look at Abraham, his wife didn't have her first child until she was 90 something years old. Then God said to sacrifice that boy for Him. He never stoped believing and neither should you."

Dan,

Sorry that you had so many health scares with your wife, regardless you still had each other for support. I find no satisfaction in having an invisible man there to comfort me, who never does. He always remains silent and never tells me anything to comfort me, which drove me into having a nervous breakdown several years ago.

Once again you're just like the rest of these hypocritical married christians. You're married and it's easy for you to preach the good news about your Jesus, when you're not the one who has to come home to an empty house every night.

So I have decided to chase after whores and sleep with them instead.

I'm sure you will claim that I am living for the devil, however it's funny because Jesus makes things harder and Satan makes things easier.

The facts are Dan, is that God doesn't give a shit about my desires, and I don't give a shit about him anymore. He can screw himself, and considering the hell I have already endured in my own personal life, there is nothing you or any christian can say to scare me back into his fold, because I am done running and being scared of your "Biased Lying God", who plays nothing but favorites.

Now go brag some more about your family Dan and how God has his Golden Hand upon you, while the rest of us are heart broken over not having anyone to spend the holidays with. We are the ones who God has neglected and who God has discriminated against.

It is so easy for someone like you Dan, to preach at people like me, and others on here when you are not the one who has had to live 37 years of his life not having anyone. I am done wasting my time having false hopes and expectations of God eventually coming through one day. I've heard that crap for years now and I'm sick of it. Nothing ever changes and I keep on hearing the same crap from christians like you who continue to make excuses and give "Cover Stories" for why Christianity does not work, when there is no such thing as a "Fair and Personal God" who is supposedly looking out for what is best for me. It seems his best for me is causing me tons of pain and grief. What a bunch of crap! You tell me that is best for me? Gimme a frikin' break man!

Since you have a wife, then it is apparent once again that Jesus alone is not enough for you or any other hypocritical christian. You're not qualified to tell me all the crap you said. I tell ya what, if your family ever gets killed in a car wreck and you end up alone, then come back and tell me that "Jesus is enough". You don't even know what you are talking about Dan.

Even Jesus/God didn't think he was good enough either, or he would not had created woman.

As far as my rebellion against God is concerned, your God is the one who did not make things easy for me. So stop making excuses for why your God is a liar.

For the record, I believe in "A God" I just don't believe in "The God of The Bible". The "Real God" who exists along with his actions do not line up with what the bible says about him.

My life and the lives of others who have been let down, hurt, and disappointed by christianity, our hurts and bad experiences are enough evidence to prove that Jesus is a liar. Our broken lives are evidence that Jesus is a liar and the bible is a lie. Jesus does not give a damn about people like me.

Of course go ahead and defend him like I know you will, since you are biased and you are "One of the chosen ones" who God has decided to supposedly bless with a wife and family.

Richard

Tom said...

Dan, the problem with your parable is that people suffer needlessly sometimes. They live entire lives of suffering and die painfully. God has given them a generous helping of rotten egg and arsenic.
A truly all-powerful God would be capable of giving the good without the bad, or at least reducing the amount of bad there is. I suggest you read some stuff by Richard Dawkins or Marshall Brain. It'll learn you a lesson more valuable than anything in the bible

Richard said...

And for the record Dan, I wanted to enjoy my wife while I'm still in my youth, not when I'm some 90 year old wrinkled up prune.

Astreja said...

"Unquestionable point", Dan? Well, *I'm* questioning it.

It is not considered good practice to plead a case on hearsay evidence that was several decades old when written down. Furthermore, it's irresponsible to utilize "testimony" of the authors of the allegedly eponymous Gospels, as said individuals are currently unavailable for cross-examination. I wouldn't trust such a "lawyer" to notarize toilet paper.

And, once again, a rather tiresome would-be apologist fails to appreciate the purpose of this site. You all make brave little noises like "You were never a true Christian" to push away the fear that you, too, could one day lose your faith.

And, no matter how hard and how sincerely you pray, it will indeed happen. One nanosecond after the eventual death of your brain, your Christian selves will simply cease to be. There is no credible evidence for continuity of personality after physical death. None. No soul to be saved, no disembodied entity to be condemned to hell.

Just life.

Enjoy it while you've got it, folks.

Charles said...

Dan, I hope for your sake that your wife is able to carry your 4th child to full term and without having a "Miscarriage", because if that happens, your child will die without Christ and he/she will end up in hell.

According to your "Bible" which is the book that you hold so scared and dear to your heart, that "Cute little innocent baby" that your wife is carrying is a "Wicked Sinful Human Being".

According to the bible Dan, your unborn child is responsible for eating a fruit off of a tree in the garden of Eden and conspiring with a talking snake named Satan. Yes, that cute little bundle of joy is guilty of the crimes (Sins) of 2 people who you and I are not even connected to.

Plus according to the bible your unborn child that your wife is carrying murdered Jesus and hung him on a cross 2,000 years ago.

Can you believe that cute little bundle of joy of yours, an innocent child who doesn't know anything about the world right now, who is also not even responsible for what happened all of those years ago is still guilty of all of that evilness that is in the world today?

According to the bible your child is hell bound, and if your wife fails to carry your child to full term and she has a miscarriage that child will end up in hell for eternity. Because no man is good, not even one according to the bible.

Your child has already been unjustly condemned Dan. How does that feel to know that your child has been falsely accused of crimes he/she has never committed?

You claim how just and fair your God is and how he is all about love and man is all about evil, however in "God's Court of Law" we are already guilty because we are born "Human", but in "Man's court of Law" we are innocent until proven guilty.

It amazes me that people like you justify such reasoning as "The Gospel Message", which is nothing more than pure insanity itself.

Rick said...

I guess abarton chose the path of a liar. Sometimes its hard to give up our fantasies. Till you really want to face reality you will rationalize what you want to believe regardless of the evidence.

See, the problem is that you rely on faith. Faith means you believe no matter what. Even if I showed you proof that supported what you believe you could not accept it because then you would no longer have faith. You would have knowledge.

You seeing the problem with your belief system yet? It requires you to lie because if you actually seek the truth then you abandon your faith. You cannot know truth without removing your faith.

It's not venom abarton. It is plain truth. You are a liar. You have to be in order to believe because there is far more proof disproving your bible god than there is supporting it. That you dismiss history alone shows us what a false person you are.

Anonymous said...

Lorena :
"I know a few happy couples with 3 or more children who are also happy, Dan. Who's blessing them?"

Dan Marvin:
God is. According to the Bible the only guarantees are persecution, temptations, and tribulations while we are here in this fallen creation. If you are avoiding anyone of those three things, consider yourself blessed.

Lorena:
Yes, there is a lot of tribulation out there. Is that what you would tell the MILLIONS of Christian divorced couples with children?

For what I can tell your arrogance of waving your 4 children on our face is completely unwarranted, since you are not particularly blessed for having them, and the divorced Christians are not particularly doomed. It is just life, Dan.

Logan said...

Dan Marvin wrote:
You are right I didn't say that and proof is my wife is pregnant with our fourth child. God is blessing us so much and I pray and hope the same for all of you

Okay, sarcasm fully ON now:

Wow, I never knew that the xtian god was giving 'road' directions to each little sperm on how to reach the egg.
That is indeed a neat trick Dan.
---OR----
Perhaps it takes no god for a sperm to find the egg, because that's just how nature works things.


From another 'dan parable':
>>>"How about a couple raw eggs?" "Gross, Mom!"

And what is so bad about raw eggs?
Okay, some might find them gross, but I know many who do not.
Perhaps eating a raw egg is like a taste of the devil himself or something?

So. let's see if I have this right now.
I guess dan is saying that god is really a CAKE then.
I bow down to the CAKE GOD.


>>>God is crazy about you. He sends you flowers every spring and a sunrise every morning.

He sends ME flowers every spring?
Well that's darn nice of him Dan.
Why don't the flowers ever come with a little card, saying that god sent them to ME?
How would I tell the difference between god-sent-flowers and the regular kind of, nature-sent-flowers?


>>>Whenever you want to talk, He'll listen. He can live anywhere in the universe, and He chose your heart.

Would that just be our universe, or is god in every possible universe that might exists?
How sweeeet that he chose my heart though.
I must surely be special to this invisible hidden god...WOW
[[[ Now if this god would only contact me, to TELL me how special I am ]]]

>>>this past year my wife went through 3 count them, three brain surgeries to remove tumors from her pituitary.

Not to sound unsympathetic here, but aren't fundies suppose to use their god to heal things like tumors and such?
Odd that I see a devout TRUE xtian, turning to HUMAN SCIENCE to solve a god type healing problem, hmm.

>>>I know for a fact that suffering, persecutions, trials and temptations are guarantee's in the Bible

Gosh, is it any wonder why Dan?
It couldn't be that such things would be independent of any god or devil.
i.e. That's just LIFE on this planet.


>>>The world will be erased of evil, no more suffering no more torture no more lusting

Oh darn, there goes all the FUN lusting I was counting upon in the next life.
Guess I'll pass on that offer then Dan.

>>>Some years ago, a lawyer by the name of Frank Morison wrote a book with the title, "Who Moved The Stone?" He set out with the purpose of disproving the resurrection, of proving that Christ did not really rise from the grave. But the book turned out to be entirely different.

And you buy this story of Frank's, much like you really believe Lee Strobel was really an atheist and journalist, before he became a fundie nut job.
I got this bridge to sell you Dan.....wanna buy it?

Sarcasm OFF now:

Dan, it is crystal clear to me that you are SEVERLY BRAINWASHED!!
No, you can't see it, because someone who is brainwashed isn't suppose to know they are.
It takes an outsider to actually recognize this sad fact, but to you Dan, any outsider is surely speaking with the devil's voice, so you will never escape your xtian jail cell.

You mind is so horribly tweaked to ignore even the most credible evidence against your bible being god's word, that nothing will impress you from any human source, no matter if it's History or any branch of the Sciences.
The only history and science you will recognize, are those that don't go against your bible and can make your life easier/better at the same time.

If history doesn't dispute any piece of your bible, then it's fine to accept.
However, if some historical fact is presented that interferes with your bible brainwashing, then surely that ONE piece was created by the devil himself.

If science provides you with things like a car, tv, radio, cell phone, medical cures and anything to make your life easier, then you're all for it.
However, as soon as science says the earth is far older than 6000 years or that we have tons of evidence to show that life has evolved without your god involved, then once again THIS part of science is from the devil, but, just this part, as the rest is still just fine by you.
Talk about cherry picking from life.

Speaking of that cake Dan.
You must be familiar with that old expression...."You want your cake and eat it to".
Any human discovery is fine and appreciated, just as long as it fits within your idea of what your dumb bible book is suggesting to your deluded brain cells.

I am truly dumbfounded that in the year 2007 that someone can grow up and be educated in a country like the USA and use that education to thrive, but yet totally ignore it when it pleases the emotions to believe in unprovable super entities.

The other thing that you keep failing to realize Dan, is that most of us once had our thoughts customized by your god book and it's followers, just like you now do.
Once one is outside of that god bubble, it's so OBVIOUS how deluded one once was.
You can actually SEE the mechanism that caused the delusion and the path you took to escape it's grasp.


A STORY NOW:

(Yes Stronger Now, you might want to break out the popcorn again...hahah)

Dan, did you ever see the old movie (1976), "Logans Run"?

It's a futuristic sci-fi movie that very much parallels your religion in some aspects.
Because you seem to love parables and stories, I'll use the Logans Run plot to demonstrate your type of thinking.

There is a large self-contained city, which would kind of parallel your god's heaven on earth, I suppose.
Everyone's needs are taken care of..... Food, health, sex, you name it.
No babies are made the old fashioned way by having sexual relations, but instead our produced in test tubes.
All seems great in this heavenly type city, until one looks closer....Just like your religion Dan !!

When one reaches the age of 30, one must go through this ritual of "Carousel"
It's a big deal to everyone concerned and as each person of 30 rises to the top of the carousel, the HOPE that they "RENEW" is seen by the spectators of this event.

Ahhh, but just like us ex-xtians with our skepticism of your religion Dan, there are some in this city that know there is no 'renewal' but only DEATH instead.... or in your case Dan, this renewal would equate to going to heaven.

These skeptics of the ritual try to run and find their way out of the city.
Oh, but there are these types of guards called "Sandman", that chase after and "terminate runners".

In the end one of these sandman chaps and his girlfriend, escapes to the outside REAL WORLD and becomes the hero of the movie when he comes back and sets his people free (like your Moses) from their brainwashed life in this computer controlled city.

Most of the population in this city are under a delusion, just like all you xtians are.
Most of them hold out this great hope of being renewed when then enter this carousel event.
Alas, the true purpose of the carousel is to rid the city of anyone over the age of 30 and nothing more, thus, no one is ever renewed, just like no one on earth ever makes it to your heaven Dan.
They all are KILLED, but those remaining still never lose hope that someone will eventually be renewed. This give the population continuos hope for their own fate.

I'm fairly sure Dan that you wouldn't ignore the evidence within this movie, that shows these folks are all being brainwashed and have no reward of some afterlife.
To you, it's just a movie and you would totally fail to see the parallels between the theme of this movie plot and your own life.

In YOUR life Dan, the city of the movie is actually the god-world you are trapped in.
In YOUR life Dan, Carousel and it's Renewal promise, is no different than you dying while believing in you jesus and going to heaven as a reward.
In YOUR life Dan, any non-believer is like the Runner of the movie, who find they can't believe in your fictional story and tries hard to escape.

The thing is Dan, we DID ESCAPE and you hate the fact that we no longer have to abide by the rules of your sorry doctrines.
We have escaped the city of your mind and have seen what the world is like OUTSIDE that city. We now can look back upon your city and without turning into some pillar of salt.
We can see CLEARLY that is was all a grand scheme, meant to subdue the population from knowing reality.

I think our goal here is to be like the runner that escaped and came back to the city to set his people free of their delusion.
Our goal is to lead folks from the city of your phoney god and let them for the first time in their lives, have a taste of the real world.

So Dan, keep on being a toy soldier in your army of god folks.
Let your bible book keep pulling the strings of your puppet self.
Never use your brain to figure out life for yourself, but always count on your god's tiny voice to tell you what to do.
Ignore the fact there is no proof of your god, no proof jesus was god on earth, no proof today that your god is doing anything to show himself, other than inside your own brainwashed sorry mind.

Just go right on being trapped inside your little make-believe world Dan.
But, do us 'runners' a favor and close the door behind us, because trust me, we won't be back to your small minded imaginary world !!


Logan

Mandy said...

From Logan:

"Dan, did you ever see the old movie (1976), "Logans Run"?"

I personally have never seen that movie, however another movie, The Matrix" reminds me of the false world that Dan lives in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix

Liberating one self from the oppression known as "Christianity" is much like escaping the "Matrix".

However, regardless of what I say or anyone else on here says, I'm sure Dan will still quote several bible references.

All I can say is quote away Dan if it makes you feel better, because at least people like myself have the satisfaction of knowing that we are now truly free of the bondage that you still live in that is known as christianity.

No amount of your constant bible thumping or anything else you have to say to us will ever take away our freedom. I'm sure that just kills you which explains why you find the need to come onto a site such as this and harass others.

You are angry Dan, because you are still under the same mind control that many of us were under at one time. Just seeing people who are truly happy outside of your christian bubble who are able to be themselves bugs, and live productive lives really bugs people like you Dan. That's why you choose to post scripture on here. You do it because you are angry. Your actions prove it.

I have said what I need to say, and I have no further interest in anything more you have to say on the matter Dan.

You Dear Dan, are the one who has a problem. That is why you choose to condemn others by passing judgement and disrespecting their choices and beliefs in life.

May the day come when all different types of people from all different walks of life finally learn how to love, accept, and take care of each other. I have personally found that I can accomplish a lot more in life when I allow my own "Human Spirit" (Human strength) to take over, and guide me.

Nothing you say Dan, will change that. My own personal success has proven that to me, and that is good enough as far as I'm concerned.

Have a good day. :)

ABarton said...

Aspentroll:

can you please explain why you think the below comments have any warrant to be applied to me:

"To Abarton and all the other fundies who disgrace themselves by coming into this site spouting their purely delusional and brainwashed views, I have this to say:
What about all the people of the world who do not share your particular myth? Check it out, christianity is a small minority when it comes to the beliefs of the other people of the world.
You are kind of waisting your time here on this site.
The whole world needs you out there spewing your BS."

I have said NOTHING about ANYTHING to do with Christianity or my faith at all. All I have made comments on are academic concerns as someone who has a personal and academic term with classical studies.
Are classical studies banned in the Middle East? I never knew that

You think that teaching classical studies is BS? Filth?

I will get my ass kicked for being a classists in this board?

Do atheists not like classical scholars?

This is very very odd and bewildering.....

ABarton said...

also what statements have I made that are a result of being brainwashed? Do you think that classists and A.N.E.s are brainwashed?

If you want my sincere opinion I'd rather anti-theists would concentrate on the lack of Messianic prophecy in the O.T. and the N.T.'s approbition of Second Temple Messianic expectations. That is your chronological problem, that is the syncretist part of the Christian faith. Such criticism would at least have some basis and have some genuine discussion.

Jim Arvo said...

A Barton,

In your most recent post you said "All I have made comments on are academic concerns as someone who has a personal and academic term with classical studies."

If that were the case, then you would be quite right to take offense at some of the comments directed toward you. However, I'd like to remind you of your very first comments in this thread. You said

"I am getting quite concerned at how many people are buying this pagan origins of Christianity hype.
I really think the academia should get together and realize how their respective fields are being abused by people with malign intent to decieve.
" [emphasis added]

Pardon my saying so, but asserting some broad intent to deceive and to abuse goes somewhat beyond the scope of an "academic" concern. You are making an outright accusation, and a rather strong and broad one at that. If you have scholarly input that would be beneficial, you are welcome to inject it. Citing appropriate works, or summarizing them, or pointing out specific misconceptions or discredited work would all come under the "academic" banner. Personally, I would have no problem with that.

You continued "The idea of pagan origins of Christianity is just not supported or true. From my sampling of these claims I turn to the classical sources they cite and find that its all a load of hot air."

Those statements strike me as quite odd, particularly back-to-back. On the one hand, you completely dismiss the influence of Pagan beliefs on Christianity, yet you cite only a "sampling" of claims. Wouldn't your dismissal be more appropriately directed at those specific claims, and not the broader idea of borrowing?

Then you said "The idea of rising saviours, 12 disciples, virgin births are not found in these cults..."

I'm guessing that you are here referring to the purported "12 disciples" of Mithra, first popularized by Cumont and later given a much different interpretation (by Ulansey and others). You would be right to criticize the continued use of that claim, at least with respect to Mithra. However, I am baffled by your categorical denial of prior rising saviors and "virgin births". Both Attis and Osiris are ready examples of the former, and there are numerous examples of human-divine parentage predating Christianity. One needn't even turn to mythical beings: Pythagoras, Julius Caesar, and Alexander the Great were all purportedly fathered by gods. If it's the word "virgin" that you are disputing, then I assert that to be a red herring, as the central issue here is divine paternity, not the mere circumstances through which it was "proven".

You also impugn the scholarship of those who publish works relating to Pagan influence on Christianity. This is a very broad and careless statement on your part.. Perhaps you have some specific author(s) in mind (I have a good idea who), but your somehow neglect the wide spectrum of legitimate scholars, including those associated with Mithraic studies. This alone makes me question how much scholarship is behind your assertions.

If your studies have shed some light on these issues, I'd be happy to hear about your specific findings. However, I urge you to shelve the overly-broad assertions and the unsavory accusations. It's the latter that has prompted angry responses to your posts.

2Bornot2B said...

Answer this said:
"Dan,

I would like for you to answer one question for me. I will be greatly appreciative if you can answer it with something other than what I have come up with. Ok, here goes.... How do you know that Jesus said those things? I mean the gospels were not written by any contemporaries of his and some of the writers copied off others. This is a proven fact. So explain that away."

Dan would you please answer this question. I am dying waiting on the answer

RubyHypatia said...

"101 Myths of the Bible" by Gary Greenberg is an excellent book. He proves the ancient Hebrew religion came from surrounding pagan religions, mostly from Egypt.

boomSLANG said...

Obstinate Christian insults our intelligence with....God is crazy about you. He sends you flowers every spring

....along with influenza! Thanks-so-much, "Yahweh"! Muah!

...and a sunrise every morning.

yes, yes!....with an occasional typhoon, hurricane, tsunami, or tornado thrown in.... just to, uh, "mix it up" every now and then! What's wrong with you???.... killing 5 or 10 thousand people at a time is a perfect example of biblegod's "omnibenevolence"!!!! Praise "Yahweh"!!

Ryan Scott said...

for those of you who think Ron Paul is not going to impose his views, how do you explain this:

"The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance." - Ron Paul

Read "The War on Religion": http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

A vote for Ron Paul is not only a wasted vote, its a vote for more religion in government.

redtail said...

Lol-that was good boomSLANG ;)
Hey Jason, I really enjoyed your post, especially the part where you spoke about believers living within a sphere of predefined conclusions. That is so true! and you can really see that when you read posts by Dan Marvin. The mental gymnastics that guy puts himself through while trying to reconcile contradictions just amaze me! Thanks for writing!

Ryan Scott said...

Its clear to me that Dan trolls here because he wants his faith to be challenged. He wants to escape its crushing grip but just hasn't found the right argument to cause his deconversion.

Some friends of mine have 6 healthy kids, and they are atheists. They win. They nullify your 4 christian clones and beat you by 2. By your definition of being blessed, they are more blessed than you, and yet have no belief in christianity or any god whatsoever. They are beautiful and good people because they choose to be, not because god tells them that if they don't, they will suffer forever.

indoctrinating children into christianity is child abuse, plain and simple.

its going to hurt when you one day realize this. i hope its not too difficult for your kids to adjust. all the psychological abuse you are putting them through now will likely be with them forever.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Yeah, and Dan also gives God the glory for his wife getting knocked up for the 4th time.

Apparently Dan must not be able to get a hard on and have sex with his wife himself, or he is sterile.

So that must be the secret when it comes to solving the problem of being sterile. Just let God have sex with your wife like Dan did.

Dan would probably let God have sex with his own daughter too.

franknhonest said...

Richard,

I'm getting on for 36 myself, still single, never been in a relationship. I can understand perfectly your point of view.

If there is a God, he doesn't give a flying fuck about this world or anyone in it.


Jon
www.antichurch.org.uk

Richard said...

franknhonest reply to my post...

"If there is a God, he doesn't give a flying fuck about this world or anyone in it."

Thanks for understanding my point also. I'm sure Dan Marvin would not agree since he is not in our boat. He only sees things from a one sided point of view. People like him are not willing to accept that some things don't work for other people. Our own personal lives and the tragedies we have dealt with prove that. That is where the real evidence is at. I am living proof that God does not work and that God is a liar.

The problem with people like Dan Marvin and other christians is that it's easy for them to give God all of this glory when it seems they are doing well in life. However, I have seen many people who at one time gave God all the glory for everything they had accomplished in their own lives and all of the blessings that they have received until one day they lost everything, and that is when a lot of them turned against God.

It has happened many times, and I have found most of those same people who were praising God at one time did not persevere like their Bible Hero Job did. God provided no answers for those same people, nor did he provide any comfort to those same people whatsoever. They were told to have faith, only to never see an improvement in their lives. They just sunk deeper into depression and despair only. No comfort for God came for those same people. I speak this out of my own personal sufferings in regards to dealing with the "Cold Hard Realtiy" of who God is and the way life really works.

I speak for those of us who have not been as fortunate as hypocrites like Dan Marvin have been. I speak for those of us who did not get the breaks in life that christians like Dan Marvin got. We are the one's who Dan Marvin's God has chosen to neglect and ignore.

Some christians will proclaim that God is testing our faith. Why would God need to test my faith when he already knows the final outcome? If that's so, then I see God as a Mad Scientist who performs experiments on his own "Lab Rats" known as humans. Plus God is partial and has his favorites. Apparently Dan Marvin is one of them. God is a fucking asshole and I don't owe him shit, and I refuse to submit to what he wants. I will not repent. Fuck God and fuck his bastard son Jesus!

You're right Jon. God does not give a fuck about us. He is nothing more than a self-centered, self-absorbed, egotistical, and insecured universal bully. That is who God is, and the bible has no merit when it comes to proving who God is. Goddamn the bible and Goddamn every son of a bitch who put the bible in print.

2Bornot2B said...

Richard and Jon,

I understand where both of you are coming from. I am 28 and single. I have never been in a real relationship either. I have had dates but nothing seems to pan out. Where I live has something to do with that but all I ever seem to attract are women who are either messed up some way (divorced, etc.) or they just want to be friends.

All of this has caused me to become very apathetic about the whole situation. My parents do not make it any better. My mother keeps telling me that "the Lord" will send me a girl. "You might be 40 when you meet the right one." My father seems to think that it is somehow my fault and that I do not try enough. Well, that may have some truth to it but it gets very frustrating and depressing when you try and try and try and you keep having no luck.

People who are in a happy relationship don't understand how we feel and I really don't want their pity, because that is all that their comments amount to.

Just my thoughts,
Josh

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Josh Said: "People who are in a happy relationship don't understand how we feel and I really don't want their pity, because that is all that their comments amount to."

You are right Josh. People who are in a happy relationship don't understand, and they don't give a shit.

As far as christians comments amounting to pity, you are right again Josh. That's all christians know how to do is make excuses for why God does not deliver on his promises. Even after 20 years when things don't improve these same christian nuts will still keep on telling people to keep on fighting the good fight and serving Jesus.

I for one have no desire to be in a relationship with some invisible man, named Jesus. I would rather prefer the company of a woman, not some ugly ass beared man. Besides, why in the hell would anyone, "Especially a guy" want to have an intimate relationship with some dead man who supposedly lived 2,000 years ago?

I am not interested in some "Spiritual Crutch" to help me feel better about my own insignificance. I want to have a relationship with a living, breathing, walking, and talking female who I can be romantic with.

Christians once again deliver nothing more than worthless lip service. All they do is make more excuses for why their God is so lame, and they give nothing but a bunch of pathetic apologies, which I have no need for also. Most christians are just as pathetic and lame as their God is.

As long as they are at the top, and as long as they are getting what they want in life, they don't really give a shit about none of you. Dan Marvin does not give a damn about you, nor does any other christian in this world. They really don't care about the poor, and the broken. They only talk about how they care, however their actions never prove it. They are like the deceiver who the follow, and that deceiver is named, "Jesus".

Instead of christians helping people solve problems, they only add to them by quoting a bunch of stupid scripture, and giving a lecture. Most christians do not do anything constructive that produces results that work. All they are good at is running their damn mouths.

And for christians like Dan Marvin who proclaim their Gospel, and who continue to quote scripture, I want to remind you that another day has once again come and gone, and your lame ass Jesus still has not returned to redeem your sorry ass.

That's all you will ever see or hear of concerning Jesus. Nobody will ever truly see him, or hear from him. Instead you will only continue to hear about him, and lame scripture out of the "Holey Babble". It is, and will continue to be nothing more than a myth. Jesus will never make his appearance or return here to Earth.

For those of you who are waiting on God to fix your problems, and give you some answers about your life, all I can say is you better stop talking to yourself, get off of your knees, and get off of your ass and start making things happen for yourself. God isn't going to do shit for you. Only you control your own destiny in this world. Only you can make things happen.

If you are Trusting Jesus/God to provide answers and solve your problems then you are pretty much leaving things up to chance. When you take control of your own life, that is when you will start seeing results. Don't keep on wasting your time chasing after some "Holy "Ghost" or dead man. Don't wait until the end of your life and realize that you wasted it chasing after a spiritual crutch.

Do not allow any christian to insult your intelligence or your own abilities by telling you that you can do nothing without some dead man who you cannot even see or talk to directly. Do not live in a fantasy world like that. I did at one time, and it cost me greatly, because in my own personal life, Jesus never showed up, Jesus never comforted me, and I ended up having a total nervous breakdown over it, no thanks to the lies of christianity.

I even knew a preacher who lost his wife and family in a car wreck, and he tried and tried to persevere and trust in Jesus, however, this same man never could feel any presence from Jesus nor could he feel any contentment from Jesus. So as a result, this poor preacher committed suicide. Does that sound like God knew what was best for this preacher, and taking the man's wife and children, was that best for this preacher? Yes, I question a God who would allow such a horrible thing to happen, which only led to the self-destruction of a man's life.

However, I'm sure some christian nut job will claim that God allowed it to happen for the best, and there was a reason why this former man of the cloth killed himself, however those same christians cannot tell you why it happened, and they can't tell you the reason why it happened, however these same christians claim they hear from God and he talks to them, but for some reason he doesn't seem to be able to give them answers that really matter, because in their own minds most of them also doubt if God really does know best.

The lies of christianity that I am speaking of did not come out of the mouth of what some christian said or did. These lies came straight from a book known as "The Holy Bible". I have claimed verses before out of the bible only to find out that what the bible claims did not come to pass in my own personal life. I challenge any christian to prove that evidence that I have presented. I have found bald faced lies in the bible.

Also remember, that any christian who tells you that you are wrong doesn't know shit about you or your life. Christians are not qualified to judge anyone, or decide what is best for anyone.

Christians are nothing more than brainwashed zombies who do not know how to think for themselves. Do not allow any of them to use "The Bible" to manipulate you. Christians are the greatest deceivers that I have ever known. They are nothing more than hypocritical wolves in sheep's clothing.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Dan Marvin Said: "Your behavior is appalling, dude"

Thanks Dan! Coming from you, that is a compliment.

It feels good to know that I have broken away from the very thing that has enslaved your mind. That is the reason for my crude and rude behavior towards your faith. It is my way of celebrating.

I will continue to lead the fight against your kind, and your lying God who raped an innocent woman named Mary so he could be conceived in birth.

I will also continue to defend the weaker against christians like you who manipulate and bully others with scripture.

And I will also continue to make provocative comments that offend and produce shock value against christians like yourself, because I can.

ABarton said...

"If that were the case, then you would be quite right to take offense at some of the comments directed toward you."

Thank you

"Pardon my saying so, but asserting some broad intent to deceive and to abuse goes somewhat beyond the scope of an "academic" concern."

Every list I have seen on the internet has done this. I am being broad sure, there might be some out there that some some fidelity to facts, if there are I would like to see them.
The fact is Christian origins is a huge area of study in the academic world yet these copycat ideas aren't given even a footnote. Its a grass-roots, conspiracy theorist enterprise.


Those statements strike me as quite odd, particularly back-to-back. On the one hand, you completely dismiss the influence of Pagan beliefs on Christianity, yet you cite only a "sampling" of claims. Wouldn't your dismissal be more appropriately directed at those specific claims, and not the broader idea of borrowing?

The notion of borrowing has been rightly discredited from studies of Graeco-Roman influence over Jewish culture- and specifically Galille. See for example the many works of Mark Chancey and Sean Freyne. The very starting point needed for borrowing does not exist. I did also as you say list specific (notorious) myths that abound as examples.

Then you said "The idea of rising saviours, 12 disciples, virgin births are not found in these cults..."

However, I am baffled by your categorical denial of prior rising saviors and "virgin births". Both Attis and Osiris are ready examples of the former,

I really don't think you can call Attis' birth a virgin birth. Unless you know of a different account that I have. As for Osiris could you cite what you mean.

Julius Caesar, and Alexander the Great were all purportedly fathered by gods. If it's the word "virgin" that you are disputing, then I assert that to be a red herring, as the central issue here is divine paternity, not the mere circumstances through which it was "proven".

I think any religion with the idea of active Gods in humanity will have stories of virgin birth, its not a big leap and not one that shows there is a genetic link between one and the other. I would point out the idea of a God given birth (and virgin) is taken from the most Jewish of all Gospels- Matthew. He wrote to a traditional orthodox Jewish audience in mind. His approbition stems from the specific word used in the LXX rather than any Graeco-Roman myths. I would also add that what the Scriptures claim in the incarnation is not what Romans mean when they talk about it. Again on the surface it might appear the same but it is far more nuanced than that. For example see Gradel's recent book on Emperor Worship that features excellent discussions on Graeco-Roman ideas of divine/humanity. He labours the point that so often we read Judeo-Christian ideas into Graeco-Roman sources and completely distort their meaning. Of course it seems that copycap proponents are guilty of doing the same but the opposite way round.

"You also impugn the scholarship of those who publish works relating to Pagan influence on Christianity. This is a very broad and careless statement on your part..... This alone makes me question how much scholarship is behind your assertions."

To me the above is the most challenging and unexpected comment (I'm not saying that in a degoratory way. I must admit that I do not know of scholars who write on pagan influences on Christianity. Now I can suppose several things. Either we have a different idea of what a scholarly work is, or I am ignorant of their existence. As far as I know the last sustained argument for Graeco-Roman myth influencing Christianity went out in the 1950's with Bauer's Gnostic redeemer myth. Though I am aware of MacDonald's recent work on the Gospel of Mark- but it seems to have fallen into a blackhole as far as I can tell.
So can I ask you to give me a list of works that do argue for pagan copycat influences into Christianity, a list of summaries of research articles/books that take it seriously.
Obviously if you can I will apologise and qualify my statements.
Thanks for your comments,
A.B.

ABarton said...

Also I should add, my comments were specifically to those lists on the internet. Obviously were Denis MacDonald's book on the internet I wouldn't dare say such things or question his motivation. That would be an entirely different situation

.:webmaster:. said...

The Virgin Birth and Childhood
Mysteries of Jesus

trancelation said...

ABarton:

I personally do not give a two-cent shit if the Pagan origins of Christianity are not a major area of academic study. Once upon a time, anyone that thought that the earth round was killed. Just because something is not pursued in your precious "academic areas" does not mean that it has no credibility. If Christians had their way, there would be NO questioning of Christianity at all. I get the feeling that you would think that was just hunky-dory, ABarton . . . which is why everyone here sees you for the lying fake that you are. If Christian history were not studied at all, you would say that there was no need to question Christian history, because it is not pursued in these mysterious academic circles of yours. You are a joke, ABarton. None of us are going to take you or your apologetics seriously. The fact is, studies of the Pagan origins of Christianity is an emerging field, one that will not be accepted by the world at large because the world at large is a pawn of the Christian church. To accept that there are Pagan origins of Christianity would mean that Christianity loses its credibility. Everything that was once considered taboo and is now accepted as fact had to be pushed by your so-called conspiracy theorists and heretics until the public at large accepted the truth. ABarton, you do not give a fuck about acaemia, and your flawed apologetics are proof of that. Please, ABarton . . . go fuck yourself. It's what Jesus would do. Nobody here takes you seriously. You are a fucking joke. The minute you bring something rational to the table, something with thought and credibility behind it, instead of half-hidden apologetics and faulty logic, we will treat you as such. Until then, go fuck yourself out of our sight. Imbecile.

Dylan said...

I too am a bit confused by your statements Abarton.

Are you trying to say that Christianity simply popped into existence in a complete form? Was it not, at the very least, based upon Jewish tradition? Can the origins of all current religions not be traced back to other earlier religions?

Judaism itself was heavily influenced, by Babylonian religion. Something that all credible scholars believe as far as I can tell. The notions of heaven and hell were brought from Babylon for instance. And thus it is also where Christianity gets the idea.

When one talks about pagan origins there other religions than just greco-roman.

It is unlikely that we would find a direct link between Christianity and Greco-Roman religion, because both of them developed around the same time. It is, instead, more likely, that their similarities are due to both of them pulling ideas from even earlier sources and them changing them somewhat to fit their culture

boomSLANG said...

"academic study", or no academic study; plagiarized beliefs, or unique belief; historical, or not historical; scholar, or layman......freakish, outlandish, supernatural claims don't all-of-the-sudden become plausible/feasible.

Exraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence ~ Sagan

Jim Arvo said...

A Barton said "The fact is Christian origins is a huge area of study in the academic world yet these copycat ideas aren't given even a footnote. Its a grass-roots, conspiracy theorist enterprise."

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to take you seriously. There are several things in that statement that are highly suspicious to me. First is your use of the word "copycat", which is something of a pejorative if not an outright strawman. If you're looking for that word in scholarly articles, or for the idea that doctrine and rituals were simply adopted wholesale with little or no change, then clearly you will find nothing. I hope that's not what you are doing.

Secondly, you are suggesting that there is virtually universal consensus among scholars that there was no borrowing. That is patently absurd. The most charitable interpretation I can give to your assertion is that you are talking about some circle of conservative Christian scholars. Either that, or you are taking "copycat" in a very literal and unrealistic sense. Either way, your statement is outlandish.

A Barton: "So can I ask you to give me a list of works that do argue for pagan copycat influences into Christianity,..."

Sure, here's a short list of scholars who have argued for significant borrowing of Pagan motifs: Robert M. Price ("Deconstructing Jesus" and numerous other books, journal papers, and essays), Earl Doherty ("The Jesus Puzzle"), David Ulansey ("The Other Christ" and other books on Mithra), G. A. Wells ("The Jesus Myth" and numerous other books), Burton Mack ("Who Wrote the New Testament?: The Making of the Christian Myth"), Gerald Massey ("Ancient Egypt: Light of the World"), Philippe Walter ("Mitologia Cristiana" and "Christianity: The Origins of a Pagan Religion"), Karen Armstrong ("A History of God" and other books), Joseph Wheless ("Forgery in Christianity" and numerous other books), John G. Jackson ("Christianity before Christ"), and Edward Carpenter ("The Origins of Pagan and Christian Beliefs"). Will that suffice?

I might add that the majority of liberal Biblical scholars (such as those involved in the Jesus Seminar) would surely admit at least some limited borrowing of Hellenistic ideas, and the direction and extent of borrowing between Christianity and Mithraism is still hotly-debated among Mithraic scholars. That said, if what you are reading lacks even a critical footnote, then I urge you to expand your repertoire.

I'll reply to some of your other comments later.

Dan Marvin said...

Tom: "A truly all-powerful God would be capable of giving the good without the bad, or at least reducing the amount of bad there is."

Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.

First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).

Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.

God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).

Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.

A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.

Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.

But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.

God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.

But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?

I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.

Conclusion

Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

Charles: According to your "Bible" which is the book that you hold so scared and dear to your heart, that "Cute little innocent baby" that your wife is carrying is a "Wicked Sinful Human Being"....According to the bible your child is hell bound, and if your wife fails to carry your child to full term and she has a miscarriage that child will end up in hell for eternity. Because no man is good, not even one according to the bible.
One of the most often-used weapons in the skeptic's arsenal is to seize statements from religious people that make God look like a cruel despot waiting to cast any and everyone into a torturous lake of eternal fire. However, this frequently lands the skeptic in a less-than-defensible position when the actual text of the Bible is consulted. Children in fact go to heaven.

In 2 Samuel 12, King David's newborn son fell terminally ill. After seven days, the child died. In verses 22 and 23, the Bible records that David said: "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." It is clear that David's dead infant son would never return to this Earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be " in the house of the Lord" (Psalm 23:6). Therefore, we can conclude that "the house of the Lord" would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. King David was looking forward to the day when he would be able to meet his son in heaven. Absolutely nothing in this context gives any hint that the dead infant son's soul would go to hell. Look I can throw verses at you all day saying the exact opposite of your view, such as...

Matthew 18:3-5 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me."

Luke 18:16-17 "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

In Ezekiel 18:20, the Bible says: "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son." Also, in Exodus 32, Moses pleaded with God to forgive the sins of the Israelites when he said: "Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written. And the Lord said to Moses, 'Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book' (Exodus 32:32-33). The Bible is plain in its teaching that babies do not inherit the sins of their parents. [One commonly misapplied scripture used to teach that infants inherit sin is Psalm 51:5-6, which has been dealt with in detail by Wayne Jackson (2000) http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/original_sin_and_a_misapplied_passage

We don't have to agree with God to obey him, we are just to obey like a child to his father. He know better then us we are children that just want to play in the street and he is the parent that knows better. Who are we to question his authority? By definition isn't your attitude towards God like a defiant brat. Remember Adam wanted to know what God knows so he went into the forbidden garden. So maybe punishment of sorts for us is that we are not to know all of life's mysteries. For us to know everything would put us on the same plain as God. Something God knows we shouldn't do from the beginning of mankind, we would harm ourselves with that power.

The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents. Although many skeptics have tried to portray God as an evil tyrant who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, your arguments are without merit or any semblance of biblical credence. In the words of Jesus Christ, "Let the little children come to me."

Logan: He sends ME flowers every spring? Well that's darn nice of him Dan. Why don't the flowers ever come with a little card, saying that god sent them to ME?

He did it's called the Bible and it it is Romans 1:18-32 for you.

Logan: Odd that I see a devout TRUE xtian, turning to HUMAN SCIENCE to solve a god type healing problem, hmm....The only history and science you will recognize, are those that don't go against your bible and can make your life easier/better at the same time.

Science is a wonderful and cherished tool, it makes our lives better and more exciting, without operational science and engineering we would be a lost species. What really frustrates me is these origin scientists that push their presuppositions on the world as fact and tries to push God out of ALL equations. It wasn't so difficult for Sir Newton and many others and it shouldn't be that hard for scientist of today.

1. Operation science uses the so-called "scientific method" to attempt to discover truth, performing observable, repeatable experiments in a controlled environment to find patterns of recurring behavior in the present physical universe. For example, we can test gravity, study the spread of disease, or observe speciation in the lab or in the wild. Both creationists and evolutionists use this kind of science, which has given rise to computers, space shuttles, and cures for diseases.

2. Origin science attempts to discover truth by examining reliable eyewitness testimony (if available); and circumstantial evidence, such as pottery, fossils, and canyons. Because the past cannot be observed directly, assumptions greatly affect how these scientists interpret what they see.

So, for example, how was the Grand Canyon formed? Was it formed gradually over long periods of time by a little bit of water, or was it formed rapidly by a lot of water? The first interpretation is based on secular assumptions of slow change over millions of years, while the second interpretation is based on biblical assumptions about rapid change during Noah's Flood.

Mandy: That's why you choose to post scripture on here. You do it because you are angry. Your actions prove it. This is absolutely FALSE I am not angry I am concerned. My actions prove it huh, back up your words and show me evidence of this, please.

Mandy: That is why you choose to condemn others by passing judgement [judgment] and disrespecting their choices and beliefs in life.

I am NOT condemning you at all, I am pointing out the cliff you are heading for as a blind person. It is out of concern for you that I do these things.

Take care all of you,
Dan

Dan Marvin said...

Mistake: He did it's called the Bible and it it is Romans 1:18-32 for you.

Correction: He did it's called the Bible and in it is Romans 1:18-32 for you.

Jim Arvo said...

To A Barton,

I just noticed your post in in this other thread. It appears you have no intention of coming back. However, if you do I would appreciate a response to my post just above. One thing your other post brought to light is that you are a "Church History major", which may explain why you are unaware of how seriously Pagan influence on Christianity is taken by more critical scholars. You really do need to read more widely if you want to gain a balanced view of this issue; the church has a vested interest in rejecting such ideas as quickly as possible, so it is a mistake to rely exclusively upon the assessment of avowed Christian scholars (which appears to be what you have done thus far).

boomSLANG said...

We don't have to agree with God to obey him, we are just to obey like a child to his father. He [knows] better [than] us we are children [who] just want to play in the street and he is the parent [who] knows better. Who are we to question his authority?

...::yawn::

Dear reading & writing-challenged Christian,

Chronologically speaking, we are NOT "questioning" your invisible biblegod's "authority"; first and foremost, we are questioning it's existence. One would have to assume that such a being exists, in order to "question his authority". Sometimes we "assume", or hypothesize, that said being exists in order to make a point, similar to what I'm about to do to another one of your lame-ass "parent/child" analogies, all of which fail miserably each and every time you, and all Christians, employ them.

1) We can see our "parents", whether we agree with them, or not; whether we are receptive to their "authority", or not. Did you catch that?...we can see our "parents", thus, we have credible evidence that they exist.

2) If "God" wants us to use our "freewill", then that kind of contradicts a "parent" who wants us to "obey" him or her, regardless of what we want. Did you catch that?...blatant contradiction?

By definition isn't your attitude towards God like a defiant brat.(?)

No, "our attitude towards God"(in this case, biblegod) is that we see no credible evidence for such a being, and even if such being existed, it wouldn't be worthy of our worship. Of course, this, you are told daily, over and over and over and over again, yet, you apparently have your fingers plugged in your ears..... so it's pretty evident to me who the "defiant brat" is.

AtheistToothFairy said...

For A Barton

Jim Arvo wrote:
here's a short list of scholars who have argued for significant borrowing of Pagan motifs

A Barton,

Just for kicks, you might want to add to Jim's suggested reading list a book by Acharya S. "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold"

http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm

It will surely present a new and controversial point of view, on the matter of Jesus and his mythical origins.


ATF (who see's MANY reasons to discount this Jesus every being a real godhead/human)

Dan Marvin said...

No, "our attitude towards God"(in this case, biblegod) is that we see no credible evidence for such a being,

See what I mean! There is plenty of evidence none of which you will not believe. Your presuppositions are so set that even if you saw Him yourself you wouldn't bow to Him "and even if such being existed, it wouldn't be worthy of our worship."

So sad that you are a defiant brat

.:webmaster:. said...

"If you saw Him yourself you wouldn't bow to Him..."

Dan, if you're the best HE's got to offer, then no, I wouldn't bow to such a moron.

Dan. Please. Stop embarrassing yourself and get lost.

trancelation said...

The funny thing about apologetic posers like ABarton is that no matter what you provide, it fails to meet their criteria. The only acceptable academia for them is the strict ones defined by other Christians. People like ABarton are pieces of shit that expect us to be fooled by their flatulent attempts at intellectualism. Luckily for us, it's easy to see through their prancing BS, and get right to the core of the logical fallacies they apply in their attempts to discredit any arguments that tear apart their religion. I read that ABarton has no intentions of returning, and I say good riddance to bad rubbish. At least Dan marvin admits that he is an idiot.

Dan Marvin said...

When did I do that? wicked maybe, uneducated possibly, but an idiot?

trancelation said...

Dan:

Thank you for proving my point.

boomSLANG said...

Reading & writing-challenged Christian retorts...See what I mean!(?) There is plenty of evidence none of which you will not believe.

Lol.

Dear reading & writing-challenged Christian,

I think you probably meant to say, "none of which you will believe". And yup, that's right, NONE.

Oh, and BTW, just a friendly reminder---your "parent/child" analogies failed, and still fails. Don't go away mad, though.....just GO AWAY. Beat it! Shoo!

AtheistToothFairy said...

Dan Marvin preached to us heathens:

>First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand

This god-excuse is already on my huge list of lame excuses that xtians use all the time when they can't explain something to our satisfaction.
It doesn't surprise me that xtians couldn't comprehend god explaining his reasons, well, if a god actually existed that is.

>In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways

I'm sure xtians are sure of this claim to.
Ahh, but us heathens don't fear to question god's motives, as his ways are too dismal and cruel to be 'above' our own.

>Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened"

So what you're saying is that god couldn't save the 'elect' in any other fashion, other than to shorten the days.
I didn't know your god had such built-in-limitations, Dan ole boy?

>He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life

So you're admitting that god USES people for his own ends.
What a god you got there, wow.
Psssst....just for the record Dan, I'm not 'envious' of your god. I can't be envious of something fictional.

>If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape..........Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world

Or..... it just might be that god never stops things like earthquakes because they are natural occurrences of the earth and there is no god to stop such things.
Same for personal catastrophes.

Good and bad things happen to EVERYONE on this planet, including even the animals on it. Prove to us heathens Dan that your god is making his flock's lives far easier than the rest of us have it. So far, they sure seem to suffer exactly the same as the rest of us do.
It's all about 'luck' and nothing supernatural is responsible for our lives being good/bad.

>Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong.

Can anyone actually believe that a fundie would think they are immune from hatred and bigotry????
I'm almost speechless at this claim.

>Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil

Thinking of something 'evil' doesn't make a person evil Dan.
Also, just like the word 'good', the word 'evil' is quite subjective in nature.
While you believe your bible gives you the definition of evil, the rest of us would probably disagree with that assessment.


>All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

Only xtians 'SIN' Dan. The rest of us don't have that word in our vocabulary.
One can't sin against a thing that doesn't exist, right.

>Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know

Let me see, are suffering babies something new to our existence on this earth?
Ummm, NO.
I'm pretty sure that back in the day's of jesus that they had their fair share of suffering babies to.

So why is your bible so silent on this matter, when clearly they had this problem back when jesus was walking the earth to see suffering babies firsthand?
Don't you think that someone would have asked him this very question while he roamed all those cities/towns.
Oh, maybe when god decided to finally write his bible book he forgot to include this important answer to every parent with a suffering baby.
God is getting old I guess and a bit forgetful, apparently.

>Children in fact go to heaven

Whew....that is indeed good news Dan.
So let's see, if I want to ensure my offspring go to heaven, all I have to do is what....kill them before they turn into sinful adults?
Actually, I have no doubt this actually is going on with some xtians and their deranged form of reasoning.

>Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven

Let's get one thing straight Dan.
I do NOT humble myself before any god, yours or otherwise.
Heck, before I would consider doing such a thing, he'd have to gain my respect FIRST and he's not even come close to getting that from me.
He's got a long long ways to go in that regard.

>The soul who sins shall die

I recall this verse as one being used by the Jehovah Witness clan, to support their idea that hell isn't real and that everyone dies instead.
If I take this verse literally, then I'd have to conclude there is no hell for us heathens..
So let's see, if that's the case, then I die whether there is a god or no god.
I guess there is no point then in convincing myself that your god is real then, for if he's the god of that awful bible then I would never bow down to such a cruel god.
I'm dead either way...oh well.

>We don't have to agree with God to obey him, we are just to obey like a child to his father.

Yes, and just like a father would do if a child disobeyed them, death and hellfire are surely warranted for such behavior.
The only entity that I would obey, that I didn't agree with, is perhaps my boss.
If I disagreed with him too much though, I'd find another job.
So I think I disagree with your god 'too much', so I think I'll just find me another god, if you don't mind Dan.

>By definition isn't your attitude towards God like a defiant brat

It would be, if that god actually existed, but as us heathens have learned, there is no way such a being could exist and be of your bible book at the same time.

>For us to know everything would put us on the same plain as God.

I see nothing wrong with knowing as much as this god character.
What a shame he's so insecure that he fears us knowing what he knows.
Poor poor god.

Speaking of father and son from above.
Doesn't a father want his son to learn as much as he can learn about everything?
(same for mother/daughter)
So what does that say about your god, who instead wants to keep his children in the dark about knowledge Dan?
Talk about your selfish fearful god!!!

>The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents

Another relief from the mouth of Dan.
Okay then, we no longer need this jesus dude or his dad, cause we no longer are born with original sin from our first parents.
I'm so HAPPY god changed that dumb rule he had not so long ago.

Are you sure about this "inherit" rule Dan, because I seem to recall in the OT that children and their children (and so forth) often paid the price of what a parent/great grandparent did.
But if you say this rule has been cancelled, then who would know better than our Dan.

>So, for example, how was the Grand Canyon formed? Was it formed gradually over long periods of time by a little bit of water, or was it formed rapidly by a lot of water? The first interpretation is based on secular assumptions of slow change over millions of years, while the second interpretation is based on biblical assumptions about rapid change during Noah's Flood.

If I had been standing when I read this, I surely would have fallen to the floor in laughter here!!
You just can NOT be serious here Dan.
Please, tell us you don't really buy into this Noah ark fable?
Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to believe this story actually happened?
The evidence (not to mention common sense) against this story being true is beyond reproach.
There are many websites that go into the bazillion problems of this story, but I suppose you just ignore them, as you wouldn't want to have a single reason to question your god's words.

Excuse me for a moment, while I read something serious, so I can stop laughing here.

Okay, I'll try and not laugh anymore.

Trying to be serious now:

Dan, if I could convince you that it was impossible for this Flood/Ark story to have happened, would that be enough evidence to make you question the accuracy of your bible book?
I'm not about to waste my time with you Dan, if you can't agree to my proposal on this.
If you're a true fundie (and not a catholic) then having the global flood story disproved should result in you realizing the entire bible must be re-inspected for it's other grandiose claims.

I'm quite sure that many here would offer to assist in this quest, but only if you have an open mind and don't try and make excuses like; god can do anything because he's all powerful.
We also will not accept excuses, like the devil is playing tricks with the earth's geology etc., in order to make it appear there was no great flood.

So Dan, are you brave enough to try and convince us with evidence, that this flood really happened?
Will you agree that if we show you reasons why this flood could never have been part of our history, that your bible might be a work of fiction?
Will you accept as evidence, the logistics evidence that shows such a large boat couldn't have been built, couldn't have floated for all that time, couldn't have held all those life forms etc.?


ATF (who thinks Dan needs to realize that none of the sciences are about some huge anti-bible plot)

Astreja said...

Dan the flaming idiot said: I am NOT condemning you at all, I am pointing out the cliff you are heading for as a blind person. It is out of concern for you that I do these things.

Here is the proof that Dan is lying:

So sad that you are a defiant brat

An insulting, angry and judgmental statement. With those words you are setting up a parent/child paradigm, casting yourself in the role of the parent. A verbally abusive parent, no less. Not exactly an inspiring display of Christian "concern".

Calling us 'blind' is also abusive.

And don't pretend to be speaking for your god, either.

Dan Marvin said...

ATF: "Prove to us heathens Dan that your god is making his flock's lives far easier than the rest of us have it. So far, they sure seem to suffer exactly the same as the rest of us do."

I thought we went through this already but here is the example I used last time. It isn't about a better ride, it's about salvation:

"Two men are seated in a plane. The first is given a parachute and told to put is on as it would improve his flight. He's a little skeptical at first because he can't see how wearing a parachute in a plane could possibly improve the flight. After a time he decides to experiment and see if the claim is true. As he puts it on he notices the weight of it upon his shoulders and he finds that he has difficulty in sitting upright. However, he consoles himself with the fact that he was told the parachute would improve the flight. So, he decides to give the thing a little time. As he waits he notices that some of the other passengers are laughing at him, because he's wearing a parachute in a plane. He begins to feel somewhat humiliated. As they begin to point and laugh at him and he can stand it no longer, he slinks in his seat, unstraps the parachute, and throws it to the floor. Disillusionment and bitterness fill his heart, because, as far as he was concerned, he was told an outright lie.

The second man is given a parachute, but listen to what he's told. He's told to put it on because at any moment he'd be jumping 25,000 feet out of the plane. He gratefully puts the parachute on; he doesn't notice the weight of it upon his shoulders, nor that he can't sit upright. His mind is consumed with the thought of what would happen to him if he jumped without that parachute.

Let's analyze the motive and the result of each passenger's experience. The first man's motive for putting the parachute on was solely to improve his flight. The result of his experience was that he was humiliated by the passengers; he was disillusioned and somewhat embittered against those who gave him the parachute. As far as he's concerned it'll be a long time before anyone gets one of those things on his back again. The second man put the parachute on solely to escape the jump to come, and because of his knowledge of what would happen to him without it, he has a deep-rooted joy and peace in his heart knowing that he's saved from sure death. This knowledge gives him the ability to withstand the mockery of the other passengers. His attitude towards those who gave him the parachute is one of heart-felt gratitude.

Now listen to what the modern gospel says. It says, "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ. He'll give you love, joy, peace, fulfillment, and lasting happiness." In other words, "Jesus will improve your flight." So the sinner responds, and in an experimental fashion, puts on the Savior to see if the claims are true. And what does he get? The promised temptation, tribulation, and persecution. The other passengers mock him. So what does he do? He takes off the Lord Jesus Christ, he's offended for the word's sake (Mark 4:17), he's disillusioned and somewhat embittered, and quite rightly so. He was promised peace, joy, love, fulfillment, and lasting happiness, and all he got were trials and humiliation. His bitterness is directed toward those who gave him the so-called "good news". His latter end becomes worse than the first: another inoculated and bitter backslider."(Hell's Best Kept Secret)

ATF: "Please, tell us you don't really buy into this Noah ark fable?
Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to believe this story actually happened?
The evidence (not to mention common sense) against this story being true is beyond reproach...Dan, if I could convince you that it was impossible for this Flood/Ark story to have happened, would that be enough evidence to make you question the accuracy of your bible book?...So Dan, are you brave enough to try and convince us with evidence, that this flood really happened?"


If you had evidence of such an event would you bow to God's authority?

Actually you are quite wrong and there is ample evidence of the Flood. Just one example, to see the Grand Canyon's rapid erosion you only have to look at a very recent event to see that the same thing happen, such as Mount St. Helens, but you don't have to apologize. As long as we both understand the truth using common sense.

Astreja: " Dan: I am NOT condemning you at all, Here is the proof that Dan is lying: So sad that you are a defiant brat"

If pulling someone blind away from that cliff they were headed for and they kept hitting and scratching it would get frustrating, sorry for that. In reflection, I might have been too harsh for that statement and might have been setting up a parent/child paradigm, for that I apologize. Frustration and disappointed-yes, angry-not at all! Forgive me please. I have a long way to go to be like Christ and I will work on that. Thank you for that rebuke, Astreja.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

trancelation said...

Dan:

You still have not shown that Jesus Christ ever existed, and was real in anyway, just as you have still not shown that God ever existed, and was real in any way. Ergo, your examples, as always, are inherently flawed and thusly wrong and lacking in any credibility.

Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

"Two men are seated in a plane..."

From the holy ghost inspired parables of the eternally living Dan Marvin.

Jim Arvo said...

Dan,

Your parachute analogy totally misses the point. You have chosen something with demonstrable efficacy to represent your faith, which is question begging. Everyone will agree that donning a parachute, while uncomfortable in the short term, is a good idea if there is an impending crash. Everyone will agree because it has been demonstrated.

Allow me to offer you a different analogy. You, Dan, must each day wrap your head in aluminum foil and slather your feet with cod liver oil. This will protect your DNA from harmful zeta radiation. If you fail to do this, your grand children may inherit defective genes. Yes, it's an inconvenience in the short term, but this it not about your immediate comfort. The issue is the health of your descendants. I know this to be true not through testing or observation, but because I got the information from an anonymous source on the internet. That, and I have faith in it.

Now, Dan, are you willing to follow my advice?

stronger now said...

I believe that Dan tried to use that lame ass parable with me already. He should know from that experience why it lacks value.

He also has called me names as well. It appears that he cannot think of any different methods to evangelize.

No surprise there, considereing he already knows the inevitable question his rhetoric will raise, knows that he has no answer for it, and still uses the same methods over and over as if it will change the outcome.(You know what question I am speaking of don't you Dan?)

Dan, did you know that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is one definition of insanity?

We have been through this with you before, Dan. You have nothing to offer that is in any way valid. So just go away. I, for one, am tired of you repetative drivel.

Dan Marvin said...

trancelation:"You still have not shown that Jesus Christ ever existed, and was real in anyway, just as you have still not shown that God ever existed, and was real in any way."

Your presupposition is that there is no God; therefore, no matter what I might present to you to show His existence, you must interpret it in a manner consistent with your presupposition: namely, that there is no God.

I found this on one website:

{It is interesting that when people seek historic and scientific proof of Jesus, they immediately discount the Bible as a reliable source.

If we look at the Bible simply as a historic document, it should be among the most reliable on record compared with others.

Historians routinely cite Herodotus as a key source of information. He wrote from 488 B.C. to 428 B.C. and the earliest copy of his work comes from 900 A.D. (1,300 years later). There are only eight known copies of his work.

[I will add: You have heard of Julius Caesar and I am sure you believe that he existed right? Well there were 10 manuscripts of antiquity that explained who he was as we know him today. 10 that is it, in one language, everything we know today about him came from just those 10 manuscripts.]

By contrast, the New Testament of the Bible (with all its information about Jesus) was written between 40 A.D. and 100 A.D. The earliest known copy is from 130 A.D. and there are 5,000 known copies in Greek, 10,000 in Latin and 9,300 in other languages.

Still, to put to rest the notion that there is no historic and scientific proof of Jesus outside the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and to Roman historian Carius Cornelius Tacitus - both well known and accepted.

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44). }

But again your presuppositions will determine if you will accept documented historical proof or not.

There is Scientific Evidence of God:

New Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God

Your presupposition probably will not allow you to believe but it is proof non the less. I hope the best for your journey.

.:webmaster:. said...

On Herodotus, from Wikipedia:

"some of his stories are not always completely accurate. But Herodotus does state he is only reporting what is told to him, an honesty lacking in many historians.
"

"Herodotus' [..] earned the twin titles The Father of History and The Father of Lies. As these epithets would seem to imply, there has long been a debate—at least from the time of Cicero's 'On the Laws' (Book 1, paragraph 5)—concerning the veracity of his tales, and, more importantly, concerning the extent to which he knew himself to be creating fabrications.
[...]

Herodotus was, however, by his day's standards, reasonably accurate in his accounts, respectful of evidence, and a master of narrative. It is unfair, in other words, to condemn him for relating tales of giant man-eating ants, if such stories were told to him.

[...]

Like myths and legends in general, they need not have been true to have been meaningful stories."

Enjjpt said...

Dan Marvin wrote:
"New Scientific Evidence of God"

Why can't 'God' simply appear in the sky to all people at once and say, "Hi, I'm God"....After all 'He' does want us to know who 'He' is and serve him...Why all the mystery and confusion when a quick 2 second cameo would clear it all for for all mankind for all time?

.:webmaster:. said...

Dr Hugh Ross, according to Wikipedia:

[...]

"Hugh Norman Ross (born July 24, 1945) is a Canadian-born Old Earth creationist and Christian apologist. An astronomer and astrophysicist by training, he has established his own ministry called Reasons To Believe that promotes a form of Old Earth creationism known as progressive creationism. Ross accepts the scientific evidence of the age of the earth and the age of the universe, but he rejects evolution and abiogenesis as explanations for the history and origin of life."

"Ross' critics fall into two opposing camps, scientific naturalists, who accuse him of being pseudoscientific, and Young Earth creationists, who accuse him of compromising the teaching of the Bible about creation. His scientific critics include Mark Perakh and Eugenie Scott, and his creationist critics include Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, Jonathan Sarfati, and Bolton Davidheiser"

.:webmaster:. said...

DM wrote, "Still, to put to rest the notion that there is no historic and scientific proof of Jesus outside the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and to Roman historian Carius Cornelius Tacitus - both well known and accepted.
"


The passage in Josephus is nearly universally rejected by scholars as a late interpolation. The quote from Tacitus is merely repeating the words of some group who belonged to some version of the fledgling Christ cult. In other words, they could have all been Gnostic! Quoting Tacitus as "proof" of Jesus' historocity would be analogous to a writer today mentioning the beliefs of Modern Mormons, and from that concluding that the Angel Moroni did indeed hand over some gold tablets to Joe Smith.

And finally, Did Jesus Christ Really Live?

Dan Marvin said...

And finally, Did Jesus Christ Really Live?

Written by Marshall J. Gauvin

Article written on infidels.org (Internet Infidels)

From them "The Secular Web is owned and operated by the Internet Infidels, Inc., a nonprofit educational organization dedicated to defending and promoting a naturalistic worldview on the Internet. In the words, of Paul Draper, naturalism "is the hypothesis that the physical universe is a 'closed system' in the sense that nothing that is neither a part nor a product of it can affect it. So naturalism entails the nonexistence of all supernatural beings, including the theistic God."

Stinks of Presuppositions, slightly biased don't you think? We can do this all day.

If you are looking for more study on truth trueorigins.org there are plenty more such as these:

ISCID

Origins.org

Discovery

Intelligent Design Network

Access Research Network

Dylan said...

Dan, are you claiming you are NOT presupposing god's existence?

If your claims are also based upon presuppositions then on the surface you are no better off than us.

Upon further examination, however, you are actually far worse off, as all of us used to believe god was real, we all used to share your presupposition, but unlike you, were able to actually look past that presupposition to see how poor the evidence for god's existence actually is.

We are not blind, there is not cliff, there is no sin, there is no god...why don't you go spout your delusions to someone who doesn't think you are full of it.

Dan Marvin said...

My presupposition is that Jesus is Lord and there is nothing that will convince me otherwise, I do not put my faith in man like most of you, I put 100% of my faith in God.

My presupposition is there is a Creator and he spoke to us in His word. Jesus came to save us from Judgment Day. Your presupposition is that there is NO god because absence of proof (acceptable to you), which is not proof of absence.

There is a plethora of evidence, just none that is acceptable to you because of your presupposition. The Bible itself is historic evidence of God. May God have mercy on your souls.

Enjjpt said...

I remember a few years back when that meteorite from Mars was thought to have micro-fossils in it and being angry at the scientists over such a crazy hypothesis. I know I wasnt the only one, I even heard some sermons denouncing such junk-science as an attempt to 'dis-prove' god.

True xtian followers have no interest in the 'truth' or science. Unless it supports thier beliefs, in which case it is most certianly true. If some discovery of science or history brings serious questions up about xtianity, then the devil must be at work.

Thank science that I am free from having to fight physical reality and truth for the sake of some invisible divinity. I am free from thought control as well.

.:webmaster:. said...

What? No rebuttal of my comment on Josephus or Tacitus? And not even an attempt at a point-by-point refutation of the article from Infidels.org?

Dan, when it comes to expressing blind, dogmatic presuppositions, you're the king.

Dan Marvin said...

and so are you

Dylan said...

Dan...you also seem to presuppose that I actually CARE what you believe, I have no vested internist in separating you from your delusions so you can rest easy.

as long as you and your ilk leave me and mine alone, stop telling us who we can and can't marry, how we are supposed to live and other such nonsense I am quite comfortable letting you believe any crazy thing that pops into your head.

At least you admit to your presuppositions, but you seem unable to question them...I am more than willing to change my mind when evidence is presented...so far you haven't offered any of value.

as to the absence of proof thing, if I told you I had an invisible dinosaur in my garage would you believe it? Absence of proof may not proof 100% that something does not exist, but it is sure a strong indicator.

.:webmaster:. said...

"There is a plethora of evidence, just none that is acceptable to you because of your presupposition. "

So, if my presuppositions are that the Earth is 6,000 years old; that it is populated by a vast crowd of invisible, supernatural, intelligent, entities; that magical things like talking snakes, bushes and donkeys really exist; and that a flyind un-dead zombie on a stick lives in my pulminary organ; then that would mean that no matter how much evidence showing how contrary to reality my presuppositions, I should hold on to them without compromise?

Is that what you mean when you talk about a plethora of evidence that isn't accepted?

Dan, we all agree on the plain realities in front of us every day. It's this weird magical stuff that seems a bit off the wall. It's absolutely mind boggling that you are so incapable of comprehending why anyone would question the validity of your mythology.

Dan, no one can be this dense in 2007, can they? I hope to no-god that you are a troll. If you are sincere, then Islamic fanaticism has its model in your kind.

boomSLANG said...

Obstinate, reading & writing-challenged Christian is back with more contradicting religio-babble...My presupposition is that Jesus is Lord and there is nothing that will convince me otherwise, I do not put my faith in man like most of you, I put 100% of my faith in God.

Dear reading & writing-challenged Christian,

Again, if you know something to be indisputably true, then you don't need "Faith". "Faith", by definition, is to belief IN LACK OF EVIDENCE. Your bible even says, "it is written so that you shall believe"[paraphrazed]

But put that aside for a minute(since you'll never grasp it anyway).

You now boldly admonish having "faith in man", yet, 1) the redactors of the alleged "Holy" bible were "man"(men)..and 2) you want us to have faith in what you post, yet, you are a "man"(notice quotations) Did you catch that, dufussman?...you've contradicted yourself, yet, one MORE time. Boy, you're good at those, aren't cha?

So, out of one corner of your apologetic pie-hole, you say there is indisputable, objective evidence for your biblegod... yet, out of the other side, you say that this knowledge requires "faith".

You've also previously blathered on about how there's "NOTHING" required for "salvation", but then later recanted, and listed the requirements. Then you use parent/child analogies to illustrate how your alleged "Holy Father" wants us to follow "HIS authority", yet, two days prior to that tell us about how important "freewill" is to your alleged "God".

You're arguments turn to liquid fecal matter as you type. You are an utter embarrassment to yourself. Contradiction, after contradiction, after contradiction, after contradiction, after contradiction...add nauseum. You're like a bobble-head, Marvin.

2Bornot2B said...

Dan,

I will state that I do believe that a God exists, but not the god of the bible. I am a deist. Still though you persist in not answering a question that was posed to you. Luckily, I remember reading it and will post it again for your consideration. Please don't disappoint us Dan by refusing to answer it.

"How do you know that Jesus actually said any of the things that are attributed to him in the new testament?"

boomSLANG said...

Regarding my last post---please excuse the misspelling of "paraphrased", "ad nauseam", and the misuse of the contraction for "you are", which of course, should have been the possessive, "your".

Lard knows, I don't want to sit here and forever defend my erroneous thinking. Right Marvin?

Wally said...

DM said:

"Just because I have a wife doesn't mean we have it easy, this past year my wife went through 3 count them, three brain surgeries to remove tumors from her pituitary. She had her first in February then June and then finally in July. It hasn't come back then she got pregnant and we were very excited because we thought she was through, if you know anything about the pituitary, she wasn't ovulating since Nov, 2006. Needless to say it was a wonderful surprise."

Good god man your wife just got out of the hospital from brain surgery and you're soon humping and banging her box like a sex starved crazed banche.

Why would anyone in their right mind, bring a child into this world if someone like you thought that that child even a remote posibility of one in one billion chances of going to a firey hell?

Even if that child lived to be 100 years old, and goes to hell just because that child did not believe the same BS as you, or perhaps the church bus had a flat tire one sunday?

DM,
People like you are a disgrace to the human race by bringing children into this world and then telling them if they do not beleieve in a flying zombie deadman savior that they will go to hell.

Just because you cannot keep your pecker in your pants long enough for your wife to recover from brain surgery.

They got the wrong patient, it was you DM that needs the brain surgery.

DM, you are a discusting piece of shit, lower than human.

Dan Marvin said...

Wally,

I pray you will be blessed by our gentle and loving God unless you keep breaking His Law's then you will meet His wrath. I just don't want that to happen to you. You don't have to respect me but please respect and love God. Take care and please take my advice and cut down on the coffee. I forgive you for what you said, now go get saved.

Never a "real" Christian according to Dan said...

DM,

The only thing we need to be saved from is your mindless tripe. Now, go get lost.

Dan Marvin said...

Jason: "If you were to visualize a lifetime of Christian beliefs as a tall, elaborate house of cards, this document was the equivalent of someone lightly bumping into the table upon which it stands.

The cards didn’t come tumbling down, but the whole thing shook precariously for a bit.

...At that moment, I felt a profound sense of doubt about my beliefs,

Let's see how the Bible addresses this subject:

Matthew 7:24-27

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So that house of cards you built was on sandy soil and it fell when the slightest little bump.

Flimsy faith or FALSE CONVERT

It's not too late build another house of faith. It's not over until this life is, keep at it, don't be a quitter and give up.

Dan Marvin said...

insert with instead of 'when' the slightest little bump.

Enjjpt said...

Dan,

Do you hate your mother and father? Luke 14:26, Jesus's own words said you should. Dan, are you a wise man for following the words of Jesus?

How about Luke 19:27? Are you going to start bringing heathens into church and killing thme before the alter of your god? Jesus said to do this.

Dan, you religion is so twisted and evil to thye core I am glad you say that I was never a 'rel christian'...I cant believe that I once thought that this was the word of god.

DO us all a favor, take you bible and use it for toilet paper. At least it will be useful then.

Dylan said...

Hey I wasn't a real Christian? Thats great news...I'm glad I didn't waste 6 years of my life on that idiocy...

Too bad I actually did waste that time.

stronger now said...

DM:"Let's see how the Bible addresses this subject:"

Why should anyone give a crap about what the babble has to say about anything?

And you know where this is going, don't you Dan?

Dan, WE DON'T BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD!!!!!! We have no reason to. Nor have you shown us any reason to.

After all this time of listening to us you still cannot seem to understand a simple concept such as this.

You can puke out all kinds of passages from it, but that doesn't do anything to assuage our doubts about it.

You can continue to prattle on and on, but your not going to accomplish anything here, Dan. Because you can't answer my question in a reasoned logical manner. Hence your continued use of a book no-one here believes in.

If we don't believe that your holy book was devine in any way, why do you still try to use it? Is it because you don't care about anything else but your own sense of comfort and thus try to always stay in your little sphere of "knowledge"?

Why are you so afraid to question and research what you believe in? If it is the truth you have nothing to fear. If it isn't, however, you risk loseing your precious piety.

It is because we have to show you where your thinking and evidence is in error, because you consistently fail to do your own research, that we grow impatient with you.

You've already lost the battle here, Dan. You're just too stupid to see it.

I don't expect that you will ever leave and it really is sad that you must try to impress us with your book of myths. It seems that time and time again I, Or another here, must correct you when you cannot delve any deeper to reveal the truth about the things you claim and use in defense of your book of myths.

You failed to understand so many things about us, and continue to do so. You started off generalizing and insulting us/me, and it looks as though you haven't changed a bit.

And you can ignore me all you want. Kinda makes me giddy when you won't address the questions I raise to you anymore. Seems like I got to you somehow. All I did was ask you to answer a question in a logical well reasoned way. Is "the truth" that afraid of reason, Dan? Seems like you are afraid of looking like a fool over and over and that's why you ignore me now.

You don't have truth. You have a big pile of bullshit that you cannot reasonably defend.

Now leave us be.

stronger now said...

you're

Dan Marvin said...

enjjpt,

In reference to your question about Luke 14:26, the love that I have for my family seems as hatred compared to the love I have for God.

The passage (Luke 19:27) is part of a parable I believe the parable is referenced as "The Parable of the Ten Minas" We must be careful of our hermeneutics when we look at the meaning of the passages. The use of hyperboles, like in Mark 9:47, are not to be taken literally.

stronger now: "WE DON'T BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD!!!!!!"

First, the name you chose is very subjective as demonstrated by your behavior.

Second, If you run out in the middle of the highway and say I don't believe in trucks it doesn't mean you will not get run over. If you jump out of a window screaming "I don't believe in gravity" doesn't mean you will not get hurt. What matters is the truth. God does exist and He came as a man here on earth to pay for all of your sins. By sins I mean the Ten Commandments which are God's law. The law was made as a mirror for us. In the same way, we don't realize what a bad state we are in until we look into the "mirror" of the Ten Commandments. Have you stolen, lied, dishonored your mother and father etc. then you broke his laws and the penalty is death. Rev 21:8 all liars have there part in the lake of fire. But God doesn't want that to happen to you and I don't either. I don't want you to drink and drive but if you do then you will go to jail, and if you lie then you will spend eternity in Hell. Now someone came to pay your fine so you wouldn't have to spend time in jail. Jesus came to pay your fine for you so that justice would be satisfied and you could go free. All you have to do is Repent which means turn away from sin and Trust Jesus that he did what he did for your salvation. Pray to God and ask his forgiveness and he will give you a life without death and you will not spend forever in hell. Then read your Bible everyday and stay in his word.

Dylan said...

Are you just naturally and idiot or do you have to work at it?

First, about your statement regarding Luke. Who gets to decide what is taken as hyperbole in the bible? YOU? Maybe the resurrection is also a hyperbole and not meant to be taken literally...it is what the Gnostic Christians thought. The only reason you take that passage as hyperbole and the other not is only for personal convenience, your true god is your own mind, and the church which has told you how to interpret the bible, and you reveal such by your statements.

You are just too foolish to see past your own presuppositions.

As far as trucks and gravity goes, there is a big difference between them and your god. We have evidence they exist, while evidence for your god (aside from the evidence you keep claiming to have, but refuse to show) is somewhat lacking.

Until you can demonstrate god's existence with the same certainty that I can demonstrate gravities existence then you will fail to convince anyone here, understand?

boomSLANG said...

Obstinate Christian...I forgive you for what you said, now go get saved.

Yes, by all means, "get saved"!

How about this concept, Marvin---I'll take you out in the middle of nowhere, bash your knee-caps in with a baseball bat, then, should the time come that you get tired of lying there because of the predicament that I put you in, just call me, and I'll gladly come "save you"....but only if you bow to me. 'Sound like a "plan"?

Obstinate Christian asserts....God does exist....

Remember folks, Mr. Marvin admonishes putting "faith" in anything "man" has to say. So, that obviously means we can readily dismiss anything he has to say, from this day forth.

So, whAT exists, then?...duffuss, circular, contradicting, Christian concepts, you say? SOLD! Glory be!

Astreja said...

Dan, nobody pays My debts but Me. I consider it the height of dishonour to let someone else take the fall.

I also don't think that the Bible does your god any honour at all. Quite frankly, if anyone considered the Bible to be My divine word, I'd be somewhat insulted. (But not so much that I'd send them to their rooms for five minutes, let alone to Hell... I would, however, shake My head and ask 'Is that really what you think of Me?')

Consider for a moment that the Bible is a mere book of mythology, written by uninspired humans to threaten and control other humans.

Consider that very few Bible passages show any evidence at all of enlightened thought. I mean, come on, now: Talking snakes, killer she-bears, magic boats, genocide, human sacrifice, and dragons that can knock stars out of the sky. Yeah, right.

And consider that I've actually driven a truck but see no evidence of Biblegod outside the Bible.

Dan Marvin said...

Astreja,

To prove God with evidence is a pointless endeavor I must admit.

Let's just say all that I stump you with powerful arguments, using archaeological and scientific evidence. I have even intellectually dwarfed you.

Now all I have to do is convince you that Noah actually built an ark and brought in the animals two by two, that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, that Samson killed a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass, that Daniel was really in the lions' den, that Moses really did divide the Red Sea, and that Adam and Eve ran around naked...and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Do you really think we can prove all of that to you?

Look at what Paul said about how he persuaded men about God: "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1) Why didn't Paul dazzle his hearers with eloquent speeches and intellectual wisdom? Bible scholars who have studied his letters tell us that he was extremely capable intellectually. First Corinthians 2:5 tells us why he deliberately stayed away from worldly wisdom: " That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

If sinners are converted by the intellect (the wisdom of men), they will fall away by the intellect. If they are merely argued into the faith, they will just as easily be argued out of it whenever a respected scholar reports that 'the bones of Jesus" have been found. However if sinners are converted by "the power of God," they will be kept by the power of God. No intellectual argument will cause them to waver because they will know the life-changing reality of their conversion, and their faith will be secure in the eternally solid and secure Rock of Ages.

Rock on! all

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

Dan: Now all I have to do is convince you that Noah actually built an ark and brought in the animals two by two, that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, that Samson killed a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass, that Daniel was really in the lions' den, that Moses really did divide the Red Sea, and that Adam and Eve ran around naked...and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Do you really think we can prove all of that to you?

Quite frankly... No, I don't. Even though I know for a fact that people do sometimes run around naked, it's a long drive from there to Adam and Eve. And the other items are somewhat less plausible.

That's precisely why I feel that a literal interpretation of the Bible is just plain silly. Much as I would love to have a pet talking snake, I don't see it happening outside My own imagination.

For many of us at Ex-C, the Bible is a real mess. It contains snippets of very good advice such as "Love your neighbour" and "Feed the hungry" along with numerous things that only make sense when seen as metaphor.

And then there are the parts that are so problematic and abhorrent that they drive us even further away from the Judeo-Christian world view.

For Me, the alleged killing of Jesus for the crimes of someone else is one of those parts that I simply cannot bring Myself to accept. The only way it makes any sense at all is as a parody of the concept of sacrifice: A god offering itself to itself, in effect creating an infinite loop to feed its infinite hunger for blood and death. To take the computer analogy one step further, the subsequent resurrection would be like pressing the "Break" key and terminating the program... And negating the sacrifice altogether.

Does not compute. And I mean it.

beanheel said...

Dan,

If those things actually happened, then I think you could prove them--or at least demonstrate a minimal degree of plausibility for them.

On a different note, from the perspective of someone who has studied hermeneutics, your idea of your love for your family being like hate compared to your love for god is an appallingly bad piece of theology. Some would even consider it heresy. There is no way for a sane person to look at that verse and say that Jesus merely meant, "Oh, it only seems like hate compared to your love for me."

Finally, Dan, you keep saying that your god could appear to me, and that I would still not believe. That is not only a lie, but a cop-out and an insult. I have many times in my life accepted truths that I had previously disbelieved with conviction; I accepted those truths because they were demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt. I repeat, I will believe what proper evidence indicates is true.

My feeling, Dan, is that you are using this cop-out because you don't have any evidence to present. The only evidence you tried to put forth are those cutesy little stories about parachutes and idiots.

Now, you say we won't believe even if we have evidence. You, of course, believe. I have made my life a sincere search for truth, Dan, so are you accusing me of a lack of sincerity? Or, do you believe in predestination, as you must if you believe a sincere seeker of truth could be forsaken by your God? Why do you think you are so much better than all of us that such divine truth has been delivered to you while it has been denied to us?

You say, Dan, that we won't believe even if God appears to us because of our presuppositions. I say to you that, because of your presuppositions, you maintain a belief in your God despite the fact that every day of your life has been filled with the moment-by-moment failure of God to appear to you.

I want you to understand, Dan, that I am not angry with you. I am not filled with rage or hatred. I am not even concerned with convincing you to agree with me. I am merely frustrated that you are here; it is the same reason I get frustrated with the Christians in my neighborhood who repeatedly knock on my door despite my sign asking them not to. I am frustrated because you are butting in where you don't belong and carrying with you a condescending attitude.

I truly hope you can understand what a pompous ass you have been in this forum and that you may one day learn something from all the people you've disrespected here.

beanheel

stronger now said...

"First, the name you chose is very subjective as demonstrated by your behavior."


See some "subjectiveness" right here.

I am not the one posting on a sight designed for people like you. I think it is rude to hound people on a sight that was meant to offer respite from christian culture.

If you don't care for MY behavior, you are welcome to leave ad never return. You have said your piece now git!

Dylan said...

Dan Marvin said

"Let's just say all that I stump you with powerful arguments, using archaeological and scientific evidence. I have even intellectually dwarfed you."

When I read this I laughed for almost minute. Sorry but the notion that you might dwarf me intellectually (even in a hypothetical situation) is just too laughable to consider.

Keep spouting your delusions though...at least you are fun to laugh at.

Dylan said...

I'll mention again, since you seemed to ignore it the first time. You DON'T worship god, Dan. You worship a narrow interpretation of the bible as taught to you by the church you were taught in. Most likely Southern Baptist by the sound of your theology

Jim Arvo said...

Dan is posting the same stuff over and over again, in different threads. He obviously ignores the various comments and refutations that have been written in response previously (some of which I have written myself), as his arguments show no hint of critical thinking, and no improvement.

It's getting old, Dan, especially all the claptrap about "presuppositions". You simply assume everybody is a dogmatic as you. Is there any point in responding to you any more?

boomSLANG said...

Jim, or anyone---what are the chances that "Dan Marvin" actually started out as an internet troll with too much time on his hands, you know, posting just to be provocative; just to get a rise out of people, but who in the process, has now become "addicted" to the attention....thus, making him a sickened amateur sock-puppet with an obsession? In other words, I'm finding it increasingly harder to believe that anyone can be such a vapid moron, unintentionally. Wha'da ya make of it all?

See ya around!

Enjjpt said...

If you stand close enough to Dan Marvin you can hear the ocean...

Seriously, this guy is like 'Agent Smith' in the Matrix trying so desperately to make everyone fall into line and live like a mind-numbed, unquestioning, anti-thinking, sheep.

Dan Marvin said...

or I am someone that actually cares for the lost souls out there because time is running out.

remember there is NO SUCH THING as an ex-Christian.

Take care

Enjjpt said...

Dan,

You are the product of a complex chemical reaction, which is a natual process common from bacteria to humans . When that chemical reaction stops, you will cease to exist. There is nothing to be 'saved' from and no one is 'lost'.

The natural world is the only thing that exists and the supernatural world is all a work of fiction.

You sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn't help you conjure up the faintest proof of 'god's' existence or given you clairvoiance enough to warn anyone of very real threats like tsunamis, earthqquakes, and wars.

No, instead you warn of some 'other-worldly' supernatural threat that you are supposed to know all about with 100% clarity when you cant even tell me if it is going to rain tomorrow.

Your superstitions will die with you.

Dan Marvin said...

Enjjpt,

Your response is very much in line with your religion of Secular Humanism. Your god is 'self'.

The U.S. Supreme Court cited Secular Humanism as a religion in the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins (367 U.S. 488).

Enjjpt said...

The Supreme Court also ruled that abortion is legal, seperate but equal was lawful, and Dread Scott was property.

Yes, you are right. The SCOTUS is always right in their rulings and has never been overturned. They are the final arbiters of what is right and wrong huh?

FOOL. RACCA. IDIOT. MORON.

Enjjpt said...

Dan,

Furthermore, I am not my own 'god'. God does not exist, and that must be exceedingly difficult for you to wrap your narrow mind around.

You presuppose that everyone must have a 'god', ergo if they claim to have no 'god' by default they consider themselves god.

I can see your point. After all, I can see me clearly in a mirror, I can hear my voice, and I can 'answer' my prayers. I provide all the 'blessings' to my family, food, shelter, and love. I bandage wounds, hold meaningful conversations and provide guidance in life.

Yup, I am a god and am doing a much better job than Jesus ever did.

boomSLANG said...

Obstinate sock-puppet for Christ interjects...or I am someone [WHO] actually cares for the lost souls out there because time is running out.(?)

Time's been "running out" for two THOUSAND-some-odd years, dip-shit.

BTW, you are a "who", not a "that"---will you at least allow yourself to be corrected on that much?..or will you perpetually defend your ignorance on that matter, as well?

Obstinate sock-puppet for Christ...remember there is NO SUCH THING as an ex-Christian.

Remember!..you are FULL OF SHIT! You've been corrected on this issue over and over and over again.

Here it is again: We once believed; we no longer believe. 'That simple. Similar to those who "once believed" that Santa was real; similar to those who "once believed" that the toothfairy was real; similar to those who "once believed" that the Easter Bunny was real; similar to those who "once believed" that their invisible childhood playmate was real.

Rational-minded, critically-thinking adults, no longer believe in those things, dufuss.... nor your invisible, three-in-one, semi-dead, jesus-satay. We ARE EX-christians. Get over it.

Dylan said...

Dan you care about no one but yourself and your own narcissistic, homophobic, chauvinistic, anti-science, anti-common-sense, version of the christian religion.

I'll say it again...you are no more a christian than I am, you worship yourself and the delusions fed to you by your church.

All you do by hanging around here is show people here another example of another narcissistic jack-ass claiming he speaks for god, interpreting the bible to suit your own desires and to make yourself looks as if you are a good person.

You are a fool if you think you can convert anyone with the way you behave. Everyone here can see you for what you are.

Mandy (Excited about life) said...

Just got back from a nice and relaxing vacation and I see that Dan Marvin is still at it on here. I must say that I feel refreshed, enlightened, and recharged.

Since Dan addressed me, I feel the need to address him back.

From Dan Marvin:
"God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him."

You just proved a point about your God Dan.

God is using "The World" meaning "US" and all of our failures to glorify "HIM". Basically it's all about pleasing a self-centered God who has a self-centered agenda.

Basically, this is how "YOUR" God feels:

"Screw what the people want. I don't care if you are suffering or not, serve me, or perish in an eternal lake of fire".

Thanks for admitting "In your own words" that God is selfish and cares only about "HIMSELF".

He does not care about people. Thanks for admitting that(in your own way)Dan.

The only reason you serve your God Dan, is out of "Superstition". You are afraid of reality. You are enslaved to an ancient myth, and you are paralyzed with fear.

From Dan Marvin:
"This is absolutely FALSE I am not angry I am concerned. My actions prove it huh, back up your words and show me evidence of this, please."

I don't have to prove anything to you Dan. Just look at how you continue to harass others on this site who seek refuge away from people like you. Also look at the kind of responses that you get back. All of that speaks for itself.

From Dan Marvin:
I am NOT condemning you at all, I am pointing out the cliff you are heading for as a blind person. It is out of concern for you that I do these things.

Since God can't seem to show me that cliff and remove the blinders from my eyes, (and he has had plenty of chances to do so) then what makes you think that you can? Are you (Dan) arrogant enough to think that you can do a better job than what God can do?

Life is all about taking chances Dan. I refuse to live the rest of my life worrying about what your God thinks and what he approves of. I have wasted enough of my life chasing after the invisible God, and trying to please him.

You talk about going off of a cliff, chasing after your God is like running around in circles all of the time. It's a constant mental fight trying to please your God, and trying to figure out his perfect will for my life which drained me of mental energy.

Your God did not lighten my burden at all. My own personal experiences in dealing with what the bible teaches and what really works in life is evidence enough for me to decide what is best for my own life.

None of us need you Dan, or some other christian telling us what we need to do in regards to our own personal choices. I for one, have a mind of my own, and I am capable of making my own decisions in dealing with my own life. So you need to stop giving orders to others on this site.

Not my fault that God didn't make himself more clear about his will.

If God can't do a better job making my burden lighter, showing me his perfect will, and comforting me with his so called "Perfect Peace" then he either does not exist or he simply doesn't care enough about me and several other people who have been hurt deeply to do so.

I personally do not think that God is a personal individual who is easily accessed through an ancient book called, "The Bible" and I am not convinced that he is someone who is involved in all areas of our lives.

I could use my own personal testimony in dealing with christianity to prove what I just said. However, I'm sure you would not find my testimony to be valid, because in your opinion, people like me were never a christian to begin with.

My personal testimony in regards to my personal experiences in dealing with christianity would be evidence enough, however I don't have to prove it to you or anyone else, because I simply do not care what you or any other christian thinks Dan.

Now Dan, I am moving on to bigger, better, and more productive things besides debating you, because some of us actually have better things to do then sit on the internet most of the day spreading "Doomsday" messages about what God wants, and using the bible to threaten others with hell if they don't do what your God wants.

While you are so worried about the end being so near, some of us are actually excited about living out the rest of our years here on Earth making the most of our lives and being productive.

Yes, my life could end tomorrow, however I am not going to sit around worrying about it either. I did that for at least 14 years.

Life is like a handle Dan, get a grip.

Dan Marvin said...

"God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him."

You put this in quotes like that is exactly what I said. I may have but i don't remember the conversation or remember saying something like that. Is that what I said? Please point it out, where I said this, so I can address it again, in context.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Dan really had said: "God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him."
-----
Dan,

Check your really LONG post on Dec. 9th that starts like this...

Tom: "A truly all-powerful God
would be capable of giving the good without the bad, or at least reducing the amount of bad there is."

It's around the middle of the post, standing all by itself in fact.

ATF (who has more to say, but later)

Dan Marvin said...

Yes! Thanks you ATF for pointing me to that. I am pretty brain dead for the week (long week) So yes I remember now why I said that because I followed up with:

I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally.

Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.

You said: "God is using "The World" meaning "US" and all of our failures to glorify "HIM".

Basically it's all about pleasing a self-centered God who has a self-centered agenda.

Basically, this is how "YOUR" God feels:

"Screw what the people want. I don't care if you are suffering or not, serve me, or perish in an eternal lake of fire". "


Remember it is us who are sinning not God. It isn't his fault that we sin.

James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

I remember posting this before but it does explain about your concerns.

"I just don't know if there even will be free will in heaven. I know we won't want to leave and be tempted to leave. We can appreciate Gods goodness in the presence of evil. Unlike Adam who didn't know evil, Satan who didn't know evil, until they fell. We do! Because of it, we so appreciate his goodness and no matter what temptation that will come our way in heaven, if that could even happen, there would be no way, why? Because we knew how horrible evil was and now we can fully appreciate his goodness.

The presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his righteousness, the presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his love, and how else could he show the character of love that loves enemies and sinners if there were none? God endures this horrible assault on his everlasting holiness; he endures the horrifying blaspheming, history of fallen beings, he suffers it, the imposition it is on his purity to display his wrath to the fullest extent, to put himself on everlasting display.

Why are we here? What is the theological answer? To give the text book answer, to glorify God and enjoy him ever more. How do you glorify God? Here is how, you sinner, go get saved. Get saved so God can be glorified, that's it; this is the purpose of this entire universe.

God knew we would sin, He knew we would rebel, He knew we would introduce evil, He knew it. So that he can send forth a savior born of a virgin, to live under the law to save us under the curse of the law so that, we can be a little trophy of his grace, he can always point to us as a testimony to his goodness. Ephesians 2:7

We wouldn't know how God is righteous as he is, everlastingly, and give him glory for it if it hadn't had of been for unrighteousness, we wouldn't know he's loving as he is if it hadn't been for sin, we wouldn't know he's holy if it weren't for judgment.

How holy is God? So holy that he must send out of his presence, everlastingly, anyone who is not fit. Why of all this? That he might make known the riches of his glory, that is, he did all of this in order that he might gather into heaven a redeemed humanity who would forever glorify him for all that he is." (TF)

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan,

Please define "sin" for me. Without a definition of the word "sin" it is difficult to understand what you mean when you say "God is not sinning, we are."

So, let's have a definition of sin, shall we?

Dan Marvin said...

IF you want me to not comment then say so and stop asking me things, but if you want to continue conversations the ask away.

But to answer your question webmaster, even though it's a loaded one, sin is transgression of the Law. God's Law is the Ten Commandments. If you sin then you are breaking His Law and the punishment is death. (called second death)

.:webmaster:. said...

So, then, outside of breaking the Law of God, nothing else can be considered sin. Right? Only the breaking the Law of God defines sin.

Let me know if that's right.

Dan Marvin said...

The truth is that sin, as defined in the original translations of the Bible, means "to miss the mark." The mark, in this case, is the standard of perfection established by God and evidenced by Jesus. Viewed in that light, it is clear that we are all sinners.

Anonymous said...

Really, Dan?

Hmm.

So, sin isn't just breaking the Law of God, it is not emulating the standard of perfection established by God and evidenced by Jesus.

What is that standard, exactly? Could you define or describe that standard? I mean, is it that God lives up to some standard, or does this God set the standard, and is HIS Law the standard, or is there more to it than HIS Law... I'm just not sure I follow what you mean when you say "missing the mark" of the standard of perfection.

Could you be a bit clearer in your definition of sin?

Thanks.

Jim Arvo said...

Dan said "Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated."

Dan, this little paragraph nicely illustrates a pervasive problem if your posts. On the one hand, you admit ignorance (you know not why babies suffer), yet you immediately assert that you do in fact know something far more grand (that "god" does know, and presumably has good reasons).

In the absence of such a maneuver, one would need to admit that a being who allows such seemingly pointless suffering would not appear to be infinitely compassionate; that there is something amiss, and that it casts doubt on the existence of such a being (at least according to our common-sense notion of "compassion"). However, you deftly skirt that issue by simultaneously claiming ignorance and fantastic knowledge. Believers tend not to see this as a hollow rhetorical maneuver, but to us it is just that. You continually claim to know what you show no evidence of knowing.

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, and Dan, that comment above was me. I'm just playing with the new OpenID features of Blogger while we chat.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan, I mean the comment by "exchristian."

Dan Marvin said...

"Below are the various scriptural words used to describe sin. When the root words are analyzed in the original biblical languages, the overwhelming evidence is that man is a rebel, choosing to violate the known law.

* To act perversely, to twist and distort
* To be stubbornly disobedient
* To refuse to serve God
* To act treacherously or deceitfully
* To be rebellious
* To be lawless, to refuse to conform
* To be obstinate or noncompliance
* To deviate from the right
* To be ungodly, to act impiously
* To be unjust, to refuse to do right.

The Word of God does not describe sin as a simple miss or weakness but as rebellion."(biblical-theology.com)

.:webmaster:. said...

OK, Dan.

But I'm still a bit confused. You've given me a list of descriptive terms that still need defining.

For instance, "To act perversely, to twist and distort."

What would perverse or distort mean? Apparently sin is perverting or distorting something, but what would define un-perverted or undistorted? How can I know one from the other?

What would "To be stubbornly disobedient" mean? Stubbornly disobedient to what? My parents? My boss? My government? All of the above?

The rest of your "definitions" are equally nebulous to me. I'm still unsure what the word "sin" really means.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but without a solid definition, it's difficult to follow your meaning. What "known" law are you referring to?

You said at first that sin was the breaking of the Law of God, by which I suppose you meant the Ten Commandments. However, you added to that, saying that sin was "missing the mark," but you didn't say what the "mark" might be.

Then you altered that a bit saying that sin is rebellion. But rebellion against what? The Ten Commandments again, or is there something else?

boomSLANG said...

Perpetually obstinate Christian drops by, and spews...The truth is that sin, as defined in the original translations of the Bible, means "to miss the mark." The mark, in this case, is the standard of perfection established by God and evidenced by Jesus. Viewed in that light, it is clear that we are all sinners.

Dear obstinate dufuss(aka "Dan Marvin"),

If every human being "misses" this alleged "mark", then obviously, that would mean that even the human beings that your alleged biblegod deem worthy of entry into this alleged "heaven", are surely "missing" this alleged "mark", too.(you cannot deny this; your statements confirm it)

So, apparently then, what we might have in "heaven", is a "paradise" chock-full of people who miss(ed) "the mark"!!!!! And of course, that could include---but more concisely, that will include, at least some of the following: liars, adulterers, murderers, child molesters, rapists, arsonists, drug dealers, thugs, gangsters, spies, and spouse-beaters. This, of course, being based on the Christian motif that "Christians aren't perfect..just forgiven".

In other words, I can fairly and reasonably make the above assertion, based on the concept of "forgiveness".

So, since no human being can acheive this alleged "standard of perfection"; since everyone is a "sinner", then the one and only difference between a "saved" person, and an "unsaved" person, is that the former "believe" in biblegod's existence. That's right, "God"..i.e..the alleged god of the Christian bible, "saves" people---even breakers of "His Law"---provided they believe in "Him".

Conclusion: The Laws that Dan Marvin keeps extolling are UNimportant. That's right, folks.... GOD'S LAWS ARE IRRELEVANT.

Once more, a totally, 100%, self-defeating, contradictory religious "philosophy", on the part of Dan Marvin.

(Yes, yes..I can hear it now...I'm "just being difficult")

Dan Marvin said...

boomslang: "If every human being "misses" this alleged "mark", then obviously, that would mean that even the human beings that your alleged biblegod allows into this alleged "heaven", are surely "missing" this alleged "mark", too.(you cannot deny this; your statements confirm it)"

Yes you are exactly right and I will not deny it.

Conclusion: The Laws that Dan Marvin keeps extolling are UNimportant. That's right, folks...."God's Laws" ARE IRRELEVANT.

Not so fast my friend, the Law helps us understand the plight we are in in reference to God. You are still under the Law because you have never been born again.

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

1 Timothy 1:9-10 "Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

Remember what Paul said in: Romans 7:7-8 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."

The Law has purpose for the unsaved. In our courts the Law serves as full 'discloser' Nothing hidden and you will have no excuse of "But I didn't know" God also burned His Commandments into your brain, you are 'with knowledge' it is called your conscience.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Dan Marvin said:
"God also burned His Commandments into your brain, you are 'with knowledge' it is called your conscience".

Dan,
I think my 'conscience' has a lot more to say about my perception of morality than what is covered in that short list of your god's ten --suggestions--.
In fact, one's morality/conscience comes from our experiences, and the thing you hate so much; evolution.

If god really burned these 'suggestions' into the gray-matter that makes up our brains, then everyone would have the same 'idea of morality' throughout time and throughout every country on this planet.
I'm not saying everyone would abide in the same manner to these burned-in suggestions, but everyone conscience should at least work the same, as far as knowing these inherent 'laws' of god.

Are you really saying that anyone who breaks one of these commandments, knows they are breaking god's burned-in law?
If that is your assertion, then how do you account for the mentally ill who will break these laws and have no idea what they did was wrong?
What about societies that are vastly socially different than our own and do not follow our own idea of what our conscience would dictate to be a fair and just morality?

I totally disagree with your idea that your god has burned any of his rules into our brains, from before birth or anytime after.
You have a long way to go to convince me that this is the case...Sorry about that Dan ole buddy.

ATF

AtheistToothFairy said...

Dan Marvin wrote:
ATF: "Prove to us heathens Dan that your god is making his flock's lives far easier than the rest of us have it. So far, they sure seem to suffer exactly the same as the rest of us do."

>Dan: I thought we went through this already but here is the example I used last time. It isn't about a better ride, it's about salvation:

-----
I'm sure by now (or not) that it's been explained to you (more than once) why the subsequent LONG 'example' of some parachute analogy, is greatly flawed?
In a nutshell, the parachute was real, your jesus isn't.

Not to mention, I would NOT have put on that parachute, if the only reason to do so was because some idiot uttered some vague statement that it would make 'improve my flight', but failed to say HOW it would.
That is the mindset of a 'sheep', fella.

If I told you to jump out of the plane without a parachute, would you trust my judgment (and/or faith) enough to do so, just cause I (a stranger) told you to do it, huh?
I sure HOPE NOT!!

Now about making the flock's life easier....
I guess you're implying that your god does NOT make his flock's life easier, considering you refocus my question onto the afterlife salvation topic?

That being the case, let's talk about this salvation idea then.
The ONLY knowledge you own about this salvation promise, comes from a 2000 year old 'dusty' book.....errrr, dusty knowledge that is...haha.
You have ZERO evidence that your god exists, that this book is his words, and yet you want us to put on this jesus parachute based on no more evidence that we need to do so, than we have for those cute pink unicorns fornicating on Mars I once read about in some BOOK, somewhere.

>Just one example, to see the Grand Canyon's rapid erosion you only have to look at a very recent event to see that the same thing happen, such as Mount St. Helens, but you don't have to apologize.

WOW, this is the entire basis for you buying into the Noah Ark story ?
Sorry ole Dan, you won't be getting any apology from me, based on this link you provided.
Firstly, the article is from a xtian propaganda site and not a science site!!
Secondly, every reference cited within this website on this erosion topic, also is from some 'god' site and not a secular science website.
Surely there is no bias here in their conclusions, right Dan (rolling eyes).

But that's okay Dan, you just cherry pick whatever 'evidence' you can DIG UP to support your wild claims of a global god flood.
It's enough for Dan's critical mind (cough) and hey, that's good enough, right.

'God' said so....and Dan believes it....end of story.

BTW Dan, I've been to the grand canyon in my lifetime and as I recall, the ground was pretty hard stuff with lots of ROCK and not like loose soil/sand.
A receding flood (receding to WHERE though?) that took a mere several months to do so, wouldn't have had long enough of a time to carve something the great size of the grand canyon. I don't care how fast you THINK the waters were flowing on their way to ...WHERE?
Ever see how long it takes a river to eat away at rock?
I don't care if the water is moving at 2 MPH or 40 MPH, it takes a lot of time to carve rock.

Me thinks some xtians have over active imaginations....and that is an understatement, by far !!


ATF (who thinks Dan and his buddies should alert our 'atheist' geologist about their grand discovery)

AtheistToothFairy said...

For Dan Marvin,
So you think your creation site is so smart, do you.

You might want to read this article then, which addresses your Mount St. Helen's evidence, for a 'biggie' flood causing global erosion, as we see in the Grand Canyon etc..


http://www.geocities.com/athens/thebes/7755/henke/krh-floodnonsense.html

ATF (who thinks xtians pick out 0.05% of 'proof' and ignore the rest of the story, and quite easily to)

Mandy said...

From Dan Marvin:
"Remember it is us who are sinning not God. It isn't his fault that we sin"

That is absurd Dan. We didn't choose to curse the whole entire human race and make us sinful. God made that decision. We are not responsible for Adam, Eve, and God's actions. Why should I take the blame for eating a fruit off of a tree thousands of years ago. I am not responsible for the actions of someone who I have never met. So therefore, I will not take the blame for Adam and Eve's sins.

Stop justifying "The Christian God" along with his actions. It is "Your God" who unfairly decided to curse the whole entire human race for the crimes of two people. Your logic along with your book of "Fairytales" (The Bible)is flawed.

Even though none of us who live in the 21st century were not around back during the time of "Adam & Eve", for some reason you and many other christians still logically think that it is right for your "God" to blame people and hold them responsible for some ridiculous story that happened thousands of years ago.

No people are sinful, because your "God" cursed man by his own choice. Your God chose to place a temptation (The tree of life/knowledge) along with his little buddy "Satan" in the garden of Eden. Yet your holy word teaches that God will not tempt man beyond what he can handle. Seems to me that he tempted Adam and Eve way beyond what they could handle by placing his little pet named Satan in the garden, and planting a tree. Satan is nothing more than God's little weapon against mankind. He is God's partner in crime.

God already knew the outcome, so instead of doing what is best for man, he chose to set man up to fall flat on his face. So I guess God thinks it is in man's best interest to sin, because that's exactly the way the Garden of Eden plot was set up. It is obvious that God never wanted man to have a perfect paradise, because if that had been so, God would've gotten rid of Satan a long time ago and he would've done everything in his power to make sure that the garden of Eden did not get screwed up. Yet, he supposedly allowed it to happen, because he wanted man to have free will so man would choose to love and accept God. However, if we don't accept God by giving him the attention that he wants and desires, he will allow us to go to hell. So basically "Your God" sees the need to use threats of hell to win loyalty. Seems that "Your God" should also be called, "The Great Manipulator".

Once again, it's all about "Your God" wanting attention, because he needs his ego fed. God has even admitted in "His so called word" that he has a jealousy problem (EXODUS 20:5), which is also a form of insecurity.

You have obviously been brainwashed beyond logical thinking Dan. Debating you is like debating a brick wall. It is a complete waste of time.

I'm just happy that I no longer belong to the "Jesus Cult" that you are still a part of. At least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I am no longer enslaved to the same beliefs that hold people like yourself in bondage.

I admit that I am agnostic, and I do believe in a creator, however you christians do not have God figured out like you think you do. Nor do any of you christians really know who God truly is. The fact is that nobody knows.

All forms of religion including christianity has it's own version of who God is, and it's own version of what the truth about God is.

Nothing you have said on this site in any post will convince me any different Dan. You have wasted your time trying to prove your point.

It seems christians like you are the one's who are constantly having to prove the existence of your "Christian God".

On the other hand, I don't have to prove that your christian God does not exist. You do this "only" out of superstition and fear of hell and damnation. Christians like you Dan, are so scared to do anything that your heart leads you to do, because you have been taught to believe that man's heart is nothing more than 100 percent pure evil. You are enslaved to a ancient myth. It is christians who live in "True Bondage". I decided to stop worrying about pleasing God, and dying and start living, and having fun.

So basically Dan, what I am saying to you is that I have better things to do with my time such as living it, and pursuing an education so I will have a better career so I can live a good quality life, which is something I should have been doing a long time ago back when I was in church. I should have been out pursuing a better career, along with my dreams instead of beating my bible and preaching at others like I use to do. I use to do the same thing that you are currently doing on here.

All of those times that I spent going to bible studies and church are the same times that I should've spent in a classroom pursuing an education that is going to prepare me to get into a career of my choice that will help me achieve my dreams and successes in this world. Going to church, being involved in bible studies, going out on visitation, singing in the choir, and being involved in other christian ministries did not help me achieve my dreams and success. It only kept me away from them, and it kept me broke.

You remind me of my father Dan. He is a good man, however my father is a 79 year old brainwashed fundy who believed that God did not want him to achieve a certain amount of success, so he walked away from it all, and he is paying for it today.

However, my dad doesn't see the mistake he made in doing so. He thinks that it was all for the glory of his Savior Jesus. I intend not to make that same mistake that my dad made. I have decided to learn from my dad's mistake, so that's another reason why I have chosen to break away from his faith.

You christians are really not that much different than the way Muslims are. I will admit that christians are not violent like Muslims, however you are all still willing to sacrifice your own personal success and happiness just to please your "Christian God".

In a way you christians do Martyr yourselves when you sacrifice your own personal happiness and life just in order to please your God.

My poor old dad still can't figure that out, and it seems you can't either. I feel sorry for people like you Dan, I truly do.

Christians like you waste so much of your life preaching sermons, and bugging others to conform to your faith and belief system.

It's like you christians are more focused on dying than you are living. It's all about "Your heavenly home". I realize that there is an end to our lives on this planet, however I have found that most christians would rather forsake having a good life on planet earth. Most christians live to die instead. God forbid we seek any personal pleasures in this life.

I don't know why it is Dan, that you continue to quote scripture on this site, when nobody pays any mind what the bible says or what you say. You are basically using a spoon to dig in concrete. You are getting no where with your debate.

You are doing nothing but wasting your precious time and your precious life here on this planet. Preaching on a "Anti-Christian" website is not productive. Stop worrying about what God thinks all of the time Dan, and stop worrying and living in fear of what God might not approve of.

Let God speak for himself for a change. It seems God can't do nothing without humans anyway. It seems "Your God" depends on all of you to do his dirty work the way you christians, and the bible tells it.

It's more like God can't seem to do anything without man. It's more like "Without man I (God) can do nothing". God depends on man's abilities. It's like "Your God" needs strength in numbers in order to accomplish his will.

Dan, I wish you well, I truly do, however I am done with this whole debate. I'm sure that deep down you are probably a pretty nice guy who has good intentions. However, I am convinced that you are not willing to look outside of the "Christian Box".

I'm sure that no matter what I or anyone else says on here, you will not change your mind about what you believe, just like I will not change my mind about what I believe.

Until I see more credible evidence that your version of "God" is the true version, and until I see that he is truly fair, just, and is truly involved in the affairs of the lives of other people, I will never believe in a "Personal Loving God".

We are all left here to use our own abilities to find our own ways in life. That is why God gave us our own "Intellectual Thinking". So we would know how to make it on our own in this world. I see no need to pray about buying a new car, a new house, or taking a certain job. I have the ability to make those decisions on my own.

God is not a personal individual who you can have a relationship with. That is nothing more than a crutch that a lot of christians like to use, because it is their way of dealing with their own insignificance, or low self-esteem.

Take care Dan, and on a personal note, I wish you and your family well.

Do yourself and your family a favor Dan, and take them out to eat, or take your kids out to play ball, or a nice walk in a park, instead of wasting your time trying to please your God.

boomSLANG said...

Previously I said: "If every human being 'misses' this alleged 'mark', then obviously, that would mean that even the human beings that your alleged biblegod deem worthy of entry into this alleged 'heaven', are surely 'missing' this alleged 'mark', too.(you cannot deny this; your statements confirm it)"

Marvin responds: Yes you are exactly right and I will not deny it.

If I'm "exactly right", then the corresponding statement I made after that still stands; you have not, and cannot, refute it, which would explain why you evidently "passed" on addressing it. Here is that statement, again:

"So, apparently then, what we might have in 'heaven', is a 'paradise' chock-full of people who miss(ed) 'the mark'!!!!! And of course, that could include---but more concisely, that will include, at least some of the following: liars, adulterers, murderers, child molesters, rapists, arsonists, drug dealers, thugs, gangsters, spies, and spouse-beaters. This, of course, being based on the Christian motif that 'Christians aren't perfect..just forgiven'."

The above-list of "heavenly" situated types of people are CLEARLY in defiance of, AND breakers of, "God's Law". Yet, hypothetically speaking, they are IN "heaven".

Thus, my conclusion still stands....and that is that "God's Laws" are irrelevant; POINTLESS. It is solely "belief" that matters...not "Laws".

Marvin attempts to rationalize this dilemma with...... You are still under the Law because you have never been born again.

Lol. Nice try. This, too, is totally irrelevant, because we are ALL presumably under this "Law"---a "Law", which BTW, doesn't matter in the end.

.:webmaster:. said...

Excuse me for interjecting, again, but Dan Marvin still hasn't given a clear definition to the word "sin." He's equivocated three times on this, and I really, really want to understand what he means when he uses the word "sin."

Again, Dan, I need a more clear definition of sin. Is sin breaking merely the Ten Commandments and nothing else? Is it failing to miss the mark, and if so, what mark? Or is "sin" rebellion, and if so, rebellion against what, exactly?

Everyone here is offering insights into Dan Marvin's ideas about his concept of sin, but I highly suspect that none of us have the exactly the same understanding or definition of the word. Since the word "sin" only exists in religion, I've requested Dan Marvin for his definition of sin so we can go forward from there.

Without a clear, concise definition on which we can all hang our hats, the discussion is pointless. Dan can argue how sin is a problem, and we can argue that there is no such thing, but in the meantime, we haven't defined the word, so we are all talking past each other.

Don't let Dan off the hook with this. Dan, what is "sin?"

AtheistToothFairy said...

Mandy said:
So basically "Your God" sees the need to use threats of hell to win loyalty. Seems that "Your God" should also be called, "The Great Manipulator".

Mandy,

I think this Great Manipulator label is a perfect description of the god from the babble book.
It's fits his personality 'to a tee', given he also plays many Mind-Games as well with his human creation.

>Once again, it's all about "Your God" wanting attention, because he needs his ego fed. God has even admitted in "His so called word" that he has a jealousy problem (EXODUS 20:5), which is also a form of insecurity.

Oh Mandy, now you done-did-it, you let out the secret to our fundies that god has HUMAN emotions and that can only beg the question as to how an all-knowing, all-powerful god could actually FEEL such mortal human emotions.
Perhaps god is not nearly as great as these xtians make him out to be!!!

>God already knew the outcome, so instead of doing what is best for man, he chose to set man up to fall flat on his face

Yes Mandy, and that begs the question as to why if god can kill life forms on a whim, then why didn't kill the first Adam and Eve upon failing and make Dick and Jane, to try his great plan out again?
For some very UNEXPLAINED xtian reason, god gave himself only ONE chance in getting the formula right for a human being.
That surely infers that the human god has a boss, does it not?

I'm dying to hear from Dan Marvin on his 'take' as to why this great god only had just ONE chance to make the 'perfect' human, one who didn't defy god by eating an apple--- with a huge death worm in it.


ATF (who thinks no matter what type of insane cruel god, became the xtian god in history, the xtians would follow him anyway, like the sheep they all are)

Dan Marvin posts here because said...

The real reason why people like Dan Marvin preach at non-believers so much is because they feel the need to prove to us that their God exists.

They know deep down inside of their brainwashed mind that they have doubts about what they really believe, so therefore it's like another poster on here said, "Dan needs his faith challenged". That is Dan's way of trying to prove to himself that his God is real, so he will have that reassurance anytime he doubts.

His so called "Genuine concern" for all of us is a cop out, and a bullshit excuse.

It's usually the christians who feel the need to prove that their gospel message is real. It is never the Non-believers who feel the need to do so.

People like us scare the hell out of christians like Dan Marvin, because we bring doubt into his mind, and that is why he fights so hard to defend his faith on this site.

That is the real reason why Dan comes on here trolling so much.

Dan Marvin said...

Mandy: "I am not responsible for the actions of someone who I have never met. So therefore, I will not take the blame for Adam and Eve's sins."

How about your sins Mandy? Do you take responsibility for dishonoring your mother and father even once. Do you take the responsibility for lying just once in your life? How about lusting ever. Read Revelation 21:8 to understand your fate.

Your personal sins are the the reason why God says you are a child of the devil, because YOU choose to sin. Eve has nothing to do with your sins. Repent and Trust Jesus today and God will forgive you but if you remain rebellious then it's your sins that will be your fall not Adam.

You said: I am convinced that you are not willing to look outside of the "Christian Box".

Well Mandy, you are correct if it's a "box" then there I will stay. I think actually it is the other way around because I have been set free from death and I have such joy thinking about that. Tell me who is not terribly frightened of death, everyone is, nobody wants to die right? Even I was for many years well I am one that is not afraid of death anymore.

I do wish you well and I really mean no harm to you. I actually am concerned for us all. It's the Dad in me that wants to save everyone myself but it truly is not up to me and I must trust God for all of our salvation.

Peace,
Dan

Dan Marvin said...

ATF "Firstly, the article is from a xtian propaganda site and not a science site!!
Secondly, every reference cited within this website on this erosion topic, also is from some 'god' site and not a secular science website.
Surely there is no bias here in their conclusions, right Dan (rolling eyes).


Then you turn around and give me a link to a site and this guy is extremely biased. BTW read about his Motivation at his website. Talk about (rolling eyes)

Dan Marvin said...

Boomslang: "Thus, my conclusion still stands....and that is that "God's Laws" are irrelevant; POINTLESS. It is solely "belief" that matters...not "Laws"."

Think of it this way... You have violated the law and face a $500,000 fine. You tell the judge that you are truly sorry for your crime, but he answers, "So you should be -- you have broken the law! Now, can you pay this fine?" He can only acquit you if the fine is paid. If someone else pays your fine, then he can let you go, but he must have "grounds" on which to release you.

We need a a savior to pay our moral "fine," because we have broken God's Law. The fine for breaking His Law is too great for you to pay in fact the penalty is death. No one can escape death, only except one. Jesus is our only savior.

Dan Marvin said...

Webmaster:"Dan, what is "sin?"

Transgression of God's Law

You can always look to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Get lost Dan said...

I realize that I was not the one who was being addressed in this post, however I thought Mandy made some really good points.

I would like to say to Mandy, congratulations on your success, and I wish you the best in your education. Don't ever let anyone rob you of your dreams, especially some christian loser.

Now as far as Dan Marvin's comments are concerned:

Dan Marvin asked Mandy:

(How about your sins Mandy? Do you take responsibility for dishonoring your mother and father even once. Do you take the responsibility for lying just once in your life? How about lusting ever. Read Revelation 21:8 to understand your fate.)

Dan,

It's like Mandy told you in her post, you fail to realize that pointing out "What the bible says to us" will not phase us one bit. I for one am not intimidated by what scripture says.

The bible is only "Hear-say" and is not real evidence. You quote what men said 2,000 years ago. I don't know why your brain cannot register that. I think deep down you know you have no valid claim.

Dan, just because the bible says something does not mean it is true. Do you believe everything you read Dan? Why should you trust a book that is out of date like the bible is? Considering that this is the year 2007, I find it very insulting and degrading to see "highly educated people" in today's modern world being insulted by some stupid book that was written by a bunch of "Sheep Herders".

When are you going to get it through your thick skull that the bible is "Man's opinions and biased point of views" about "Who and What God is or is supposed to be"? I firmly believe that when these same men who wrote the bible claim that it was the "Inspired Word of God" were actually writing their own subconcious thoughts of who and what God is supposed to be.

There is no solid evidence that the bible carries any weight, or is valid in any way. Why do you persist on quoting from it? It means nothing to us. Are you that so far gone Dan, that you can't figure that out? You can't even produce one shred of evidence to back up your claim on this site. All you know how to do is refer back to a book that you call, "God's inspired word". I find your constant bible quoting to be pathetic.

Where is this powerful God who supposedly spoke through a burning bush, and where is this so called powerful God who parted the red sea?

It seems that he no longer knows how to do such great magical things anymore. I find no power in God today. All he seems to do is send people like yourself who give nothing but worthless lip service that has no power whatsoever.

You know good and well Dan, that you have doubts about what you believe. You know you can't win on this site, and you know that nobody on this site is going to listen to you.

You know good and well that your real motive for being on this site is to try and convince yourself that "Christianity" is real. You have doubts Dan. I know you do, even though I'm sure you will deny it. This isn't about saving any of us, this about you having doubts about your faith, and you have come onto this site to have your faith challenged, because you need some reassurance that your faith is real.

You have opened up your mind Dan, and that is why you are here on this site debating us. You are hoping that Jesus will give you a sign by making all of these atheists look bad so you will have reassurance of what you believe.

Sorry to inform you Dan, but that's not going to happen. You will never see any of us converted back to your back wooded thinking.

As far as us being responsible for lying and dishonoring our parents, once again you miss the point that "GOD IS WHY WE ACT THIS WAY". God is the one who spoke the curse on man, because poor little God did not get his way. I have no respect for your ancient invisible God, and I dare him to do something about my disrespect. He does not scare me, nor does what the bible says scare me. I had two bibles one time and I burned both of them. I decided to burn that bridge behind me a long time ago and not look back.

You Dan, and all the rest of us have been nothing but a victim of typical Christian Brainwashing. Christianity does more damage than it does any good. It hurts, discriminates against others, and does not unify people at all.


Dan Marvin Said to Mandy:

"Your personal sins are the the reason why God says you are a child of the devil because YOU choose to sin."

No, God made us that way Dan. He made us "Sinful" creatures. None of us chose to be that way, your God wanted it that way. Don't blame innocent human beings who your God has chosen to pick on and threaten. We are all victims of your self-centered God. He has done nothing to show that he is mostly about love. His actions around the world speak about his true nature, which is "Pure evil". Your God is the evil doer my dear sir. He deserves no respect or honor, because your God has no honor. He's a cold blooded killer.

As far as what you claim God said, you did not hear that personally from the mouth of your God. That is only the opinion out of a book that you were taught to believe in. If you had been raised over in the Middle East, chances are you would be a Muslim right now and you would have just as much faith in the "Koran" that a Muslim does. What makes you think that your way is the only right way? Before you answer that, you cannot use the bible to back up your claim, because the bible is not "Adequate Evidence". It is only "Hear-Say".

Dan Marvin Said To Mandy:
"Eve has nothing to do with your sins."

Ok, isn't that a bit of a contradiction Dan? According to Genesis all man is responsible for Adam and Eve's sins. So if you claim that "Eve has nothing to do with our sins", then there is no need to accept Christ then. So thanks for letting us know that God has let us all off of the hook. So you might as well not worry about pleasing Jesus anymore Dan.

Dan Marvin Said to Mandy:
Repent and Trust Jesus today and God will forgive you but if you remain rebellious then it's your sins that will be your fall not Adam.

Wait a minute Dan! You are once again contradicting yourself. Mandy is not the one who ate the apple off of the tree. Did Mandy ask to be born into this world Dan? Are you saying that she is guilty because she is a human being who sometimes makes mistakes. What a harsh comment that you made to this sweet girl. If that is how your God thinks, then he is a sick individual.

Why should any of us waste anymore time with your Jesus? You might as well that abused and battered wife to go back to her abusive husband.

Dan, nothing would change and nothing would be any different if any of us repented and went back to Jesus. It would all be the same old recycled crap over again.

Since you like telling others on here what to do Dan, I have some advice for you.

Reject Christ as a "False God" and learn how to think for yourself, and do something different for a change.

That is my advice to you, because I refuser to be intimidated by your God.

Your God's bark is worse than his bite Dan. I dare him to do something about my so called rebellion. As far as God is concerned about anyone's rebellion, he can just get over it.

Jesus is still not back Dan, and he's not ever coming back. What are you going to do Dan since another day has passed and Jesus still has not come back yet?

What are you going to do? Dan, the rest of us are moving on with our lives, and you are still beating your bible.

Didn't I read somewhere that someone posted that you don't have a job, and you home school instead?

If that's the case, you need to get out in the world and do something more productive with your life like getting a "J-O-B".

If it was up to me, people like yourself would not be allowed to preach at others and stick their noses in the personal affairs of other people.

If it were up to me, someone like you would be arrested and hauled off in hand cuffs to jail for harassing others with your constant preaching. I really do believe that you christians need to be stopped legally. That's why I support organizations such as "THE ACLU".

You Dan, are nothing more than a typical "Christian Bully" who refuses to leave others alone. Most people have better things to do with their life and time then go around preaching at others. Get a life Dan! You have no credibility, nor does the bible.

You will not win any debate on this site.

Phant (Christian Hater) said...

Hey Dan the "Bible Beating Man", I think Jesus was a closet "Homosexual".

He showed no interest in women at all and he hung around 12 men.

As far as christians being arrested an hauled off to jail, it really wouldn't hurt my feelings if Muslims and christians started killing each other.

That's the best thing that could ever happen to this planet.

So please do us all a favor Christians and Muslims, martyr yourselves for your God's by killing each other, and leave us all the fuck alone!

Phant (Christian Hater) said...

IMPEACH JESUS 2008!!!

LET'S GET GOD OUT OF THIS COUNTRY ONCE AND FOR ALL!

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan,

So, you've decided that sin is "Transgression of God's Law."

So, what is "God's Law?" Is that the Ten Commandments only? Or is "God's Law" more than the Ten Commandments? And if it is more, then what is it?

Mandy said...

From Dan Marvin:
"How about your sins Mandy? Do you take responsibility for dishonoring your mother and father even once. Do you take the responsibility for lying just once in your life? How about lusting ever. Read Revelation 21:8 to understand your fate."

I've got way better things to do with my time Dan than read the bible. Why would I want to poison my mind further with reading such rubbish? Telling me to read the bible again would be like telling an alcoholic to start drinking again.

I have no interest in reading the bible Dan. My days of reading the bible and chasing after and trying to please what "Your God" wants are over. I have moved on to bigger and better things in my life. I refuse to sacrifice all of the hard work that I have done to escape the bondage of what you believe only to enslave myself again.

Yes, I will die one day Dan, and it could be sooner than I think, however I will not spend the rest of my life worrying about it. Life is all about taking chances, and I simply refuse to live the rest of my life forsaking what I desire in life just in order to please "YOUR GOD'S EGO".

You know Dan, you would do really well to see my therapist. She's very open minded, and she is very good. No she is not a christian, so I know that would turn you off, since christians are too close minded to think outside of the box anyway.

My therapist helped me to make accomplishments that no christian therapist or the bible alone was ever able to do. My personal success comes before what "YOUR GOD" wants. I have to take care of "MYSELF", and answer only to "MYSELF", because when I left it all in God's hands, I ended up broke and miserable with no life or career. Just some pitiful little crutch called "Christianity".

Most of all my "Secular" therapist helped me to undo all of the damage that was done to my life via christianity. She had even helped me to realize the damage that christianity had done to my life. It was not what some christian did to me alone, it was believing all of these scare tactics that someone like you use on people like the threats of hell and damnation. I feared death and I feared what your God wanted for years, and what he might do to me if I didn't please him. I got sick and tired of being bullied by christianity.

Dan, unless you were here to witness what all I went through in regards to christianity, you simply are not qualified to tell me or anyone else what to do. Until you have walked in anyone else's shoes you cannot tell them what is best for them.

Dan, I'm going to say this once, "Christianity does NOT work". It is not practical, and my life story can prove that christianity is a sham. I applied scripture to my daily life for years, and it produced no fruitful results. That is proof enough Dan, and you can't stand it anytime someone disputes your beliefs because it threatens your belief system. I now believe what the other poster said, about you needing your faith challenged because of your own personal doubts.

I am telling you right now that "YOU" are wrong Dan, the God that you believe in is not who God really is. A loving "Christian God" does not exist.

From Dan Marvin:
"Your personal sins are the the reason why God says you are a child of the devil, because YOU choose to sin."

You mean what the bible says, not what "God says". Sorry but once again, you've been backed into a corner Dan, and once again you cannot prove that the bible is the authentic word of God.

It seems Dan, that you have a very short memory, once again I am going to remind you of what I said in my previous post to you in regards to my choice to sin:

FROM MY PREVIOUS POST TO DAN MARVIN:
"We didn't choose to curse the whole entire human race and make us sinful. It is "Your God" who unfairly decided to curse the whole entire human race for the crimes of two people."

So therefore Dan, I can't help that I am "Human", and I make mistakes. Me being born into this world as a "Human" being is not my fault. I do not deserve to be punished for being born into this world. You are insane for believing such crap.

Let me tell you a little story about my life Dan, and I don't mind sharing this since nobody knows who I am outside of this website. My mother was raped Dan by another man who is not my biological father, which resulted in my birth. So I guess in "YOUR GOD'S EYES" that was my fault also.

To tell you the truth Dan, I would've preferred not to have been born a child of rape, since I did not ask to be brought into this world like that, but none the less according to "YOUR GOD" I still deserve hell fire, and damnation, because I am guilty by association with the rest of the human race. So "YOUR GOD" chose to bring me into the world by allowing a rape to happen, and he believes that I am evil and I deserve hell fire according to his so called, "HOLY WORD". Even though I did not ask to be born that way into this world, he appointed me to be brought into this world by rape, and now it is my fault that I exist so I am a sinner who deserves hell fire all because it is my fault that I was born a human being. And you call "YOUR GOD" loving, fair, and just? If that is so, then "YOUR GOD" is one insanely cruel individual. He has the words, "HATE" and "LOVE" confused.

Seems to me that if anyone is to blame it is "GOD" for allowing my mother to be raped. So don't you dare start shoving that free will crap down my throat. Don't you dare set there and defend your God. He had the power to intervene in my mother's life, just like he had the power to intervene in the "Garden of Eden", but he didn't, because "YOUR GOD" only cares about people giving him attention. That's all "YOUR GOD" cares about. I'm sure he really enjoys having someone like you defend him Dan, since you are basically a puppet for God.

It's like another poster said on here. You christians do more damage to people's lives than you do any good. You all make excuses and give cover stories for why "YOUR" God is unfair. I am no longer buying it Dan. "YOUR GOD" is a joke, and has not proven anything to me, so the best thing you can do is shut up quoting scripture. "YOUR GOD" owes the human race a huge apology. I don't owe him anything period.

Christians like yourself Dan, go around telling us how we owe God so much, yet he stands by while innocent people are raped and killed every single day, and all God cares about is us "Turning to him" and serving him.

As far as "YOUR GOD" is concerened, screw what people here on planet earth are going through, just suffer and live for "ME"(YOUR GOD)or else burn for eternity. "YOUR GOD" is no better than what Adolf Hitler was.

All there is to life according to people like you Dan is living for and serving God. You are so brainwashed it is pathetic. Nobody can reason with your flawed logic.

I had originally intended not to come back on here to debate you, however I felt the need to do so, because I really don't like it when people like you who don't know anything about people like me shove your christian crap down our throats, and pass judgment on us like you have all of us figured out. I really don't like it when people like you make comments about other people when you have no clue about what you are even talking about. Your God is the one who is guilty, and I don't care how much power and authority he has. He's nothing more than a "Universal Dictator" who craves power like Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler did.

From Dan Marvin:
"Repent and Trust Jesus today and God will forgive you but if you remain rebellious then it's your sins that will be your fall not Adam."

Nope, I refuse to do so Dan, and I don't care what your "Ancient Fairytale Book" has to say about my so called consequences of my so called rebellion towards "YOUR GOD". Rebellion is what produces "TRUE FREEDOM".

You tell "YOUR GOD" to do the right thing for humanity and stop being selfish by doing what pleases him. That's what "YOU" need to do Dan.

Dan, considering what your God has already put me through, if he does cause me to fall, then he is truly evil. It's bad enough that "YOUR" God has already put me through hell, and has played his little mind games and cruel jokes against me.

You know, it really angers me that someone like you would turn around and threaten me with the bible after what God put me through or allowed his little buddy Satan to put me through. God is just as guilty as Satan is, and before you say that God didn't do anything to me, you are right. He didn't do a damn thing to intervene for me, and protect me from the hell that I endured.

I will not return to "YOUR" God so stop giving me orders. You are not God and you will not tell me what to do. If your God can't speak for himself, then he once again proves how pathetic he is. He is without power.

It took me years to get away from people like you Dan, along with all the brainwashing that people like you try to do. You claim that you mean nobody on this site no harm, you are a liar Dan. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

You use your faith to make yourself feel superior and to please your God so he won't crush you like a bug. You don't love God, you only serve him out of fear of getting set on fire for eternity. That's only why you serve him.

It's like I mentioned, if it takes the fear of death and hell fire for God to win loyalty from people, then he is not capable of love. He is pathetic, and is nothing more than a universal bully.

When it comes to God and your agenda Dan, you don't care who you hurt either. You do this to please you mythical God, and save your sorry butt from burning in hell. Your arguments Dan, are weak and they are worthless. Your presence on this site is not welcomed. This site was created for people to have a safe haven away from people like you Dan. However, you continue to violate our privacy on this site, and you continue to build more hatred towards "YOUR GOD" and I do remember that it says in the bible that you hold so dearly, that you are not supposed to do anything that causes someone to stumble. Congratulations Dan, you have causes others to stumble on this site because you remind all of us of the pain we had to endure no thanks to "YOUR GOD" and the oppression known as "Christianity".

Telling someone to return to Jesus and repent is like telling that abused wife to come back home and take some more punishment, because she can't make it without her abusive husband. Your God can go beat on someone else for a change.

Also Dan, doesn't your Jesus teach you christians that if nobody is willing to listen to you that you are to leave and not quarrel with others? See that's the thing with christians like you Dan. You do a lot of preaching, but you never back up what you preach.

The other poster who called you a "Bully" is right. That is exactly what you are. A "Christian Bully" who does not know how to mind his own business. If this was not a website and you continued to bother someone like me in person with your constant bible quoting, I would get a restraining order against you.

That's probably why you use the internet to harass others with your constant christian trolling. So you won't end up either slapped or put in jail for harassment.

Get a clue Dan. Leave this site and never come back ever again. We will never listen to you.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

Pay no mind to Dan Marvin.

He claims that God got his wife pregnant again for the 4th time.

Who needs Viagra, when you have "God"! Just trust God in all areas of your life and surrender your will to him. Leave everything in his hands including having sex with your wife and getting her pregnant. That's what Dan did.

Poor Dan Marvin, not only does he let God have all of the glory, he also let's God have all of the nookie too.

I wonder since God is the sire of the 4th child from Dan Marvin's wife, if he might require that the child be crucified also.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit said...

I can hear Dan Marvin's words when he had his orgasm during sexual intercourse.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! OHHHHHH!!!!! PRAIZZZZZZZZZZZEE GODDDDDDDD!!!! I'M CUMMING!!!!!!!

I guess that is how Dan praises God for his wife's 4th pregnancy.

boomSLANG said...

Boomslang: "Thus, my conclusion still stands....and that is that 'God's Laws' are irrelevant; POINTLESS. It is solely 'belief' that matters...not 'Laws'."

Obstinate Christian(aka "Dan Marvin") responds...Think of it this way... You have violated the law and face a $500,000 fine. You tell the judge that you are truly sorry for your crime, but he answers, "So you should be -- you have broken the law! Now, can you pay this fine?" He can only acquit you if the fine is paid. If someone else pays your fine, then he can let you go, but he must have "grounds" on which to release you.

Okay, once again, Marvin struggles to illustrate the biblical concept of "salvation" by attempting to use another one of his hypothetical "analogous parallels".

Allow me to show how his current "courtroom" analogy fails:

Marv': Think of it this way... You have violated the law and face a $500,000 fine.

In order to be analogous with the concept of "salvation", we need to talk about this "law" that I have allegedly "violated".

1) Marvin, per your own recent statements regarding "missing the mark", I would be predestined to "miss the mark". It is inevitable that I'll break "the law". 'Get it? In other words, it's like giving someone a car with no fricking brakes, and then "fining" them for runnning a red light. That is a much better analogy of "salvation".

2) This hypothetical "law" that I broke would have to be defined concisely, and consistantly, i.e., objectively, and agreed upon in EVERY "courtroom". And of course, we most certainly don't see this type of consistancy in Christianity, seeing as how Christians fall on opposite sides of the fence concerning such moral "laws" as gay rights, abortion, capital punishment, etc., etc. Again, your analogy fails to meet its premise, because your premise is flawed from the get-go, which of course, you obstinately refuse to acknowledge.

3) Judges, courtrooms, and an objective driver's handbook all have a verifiable, testable, referent in reality. Semi-dead/semi-alive, invisible deities who want to "save" us, do not have a verifiable, testable, referent in reality.

Marv' : We need a a savior to pay our moral "fine," because we have broken God's Law.

1) Unless you are recanting, you have already categorically stated that NO HUMAN BEING can acheive this "standard" you keep blathering about. Again, if breaking your biblegod's "law" is synonymous with falling under this "standard", then we have no freewill in the matter; we are like robots that have been programmed to "break the law". And the person culpable for that, of course, is the person who "programmed" the robots--not the robots, themselves. Are you getting this yet, dufuss? Think hard, now.

2) If the "fine" is paid in full; if there is no outstanding debt, then surely, this "judge" in your little courtroom analogy will require nothing more of me, right? Somebody paid the "fine" FOR ME, right? Nothing more is required, right? Your analogy fails again, right? Right.

Marv' :The fine for breaking His Law is too great for you to pay in fact the penalty is death.

Okay, so then the "judge" intentionally made my "fine" so costly that I will INEVITABLY have to have someone pay if for me. So the "judge" has MADE ME dependent on some other person, or thing...which of course, illustrates the lunacy behind the idea of "salvation".

Marv': No one can escape death, only except one. Jesus is our only savior.

No, there are no "exceptions"; you will one day expire, Marvin. You will be pronounced dead, and at that point you will cease to exist. And it is apparently only then that you will be cured of your superstitious, bullshit, mind-virus for good.

Dan Marvin said...

Get: "Do you believe everything you read Dan?"

Everything in the Bible...Yes, all of it.

Get: "You have doubts Dan."

No actually I don't. I am preaching the good news and it's falling on a few deaf ears. It's a numbers thing, the more I preach the more hear the word. Some will understand truth and some will deny it. The difference between us is experience, you cannot claim something by a non-experience. You just have yet to experience God.

Get: "Reject Christ as a "False God" and learn how to think for yourself, and do something different for a change. "

Get behind me satan!

Mandy: "once again you cannot prove that the bible is the authentic word of God.

The dead sea scrolls put that argument to rest a long time ago, they showed the historical accuracy and authenticity.

Even circumstantial evidence is still evidence. There is a plethora of true solid historical and current evidence out there but again based on your presuppositions they are unacceptable or rejected by you.

Thank you so very much sharing your story and I am humbled that you did so. Your brave Mom continued with the pregnancy and birthed a daughter. Instead of taking some quick abortion route your Mother decided to allow life to grow. Glory to God for that. You are one of God's glory stories but you went astray somewhere. I feel honored to at the very least be able to talk to someone that was created with very adverse circumstances. I am grateful to God that I can have a conversation with you because you are still part of His plan. He needed your soul in this world and that cake analogy fits in your situation (Meanwhile, her Mother is baking a cake...)

Mandy: "Don't you dare set there and defend your God. He had the power to intervene in my mother's life,"

If he did intervene then I wouldn't have the honor to converse with you today. You are a wonderful cake made by God. I know a preacher that was born as a result of a stranger raping his Mother. He has done many great things in his life and helped guide and touch a great deal of souls.

I know a woman who was raped by her own father and she hates God for that. But it was the daddy that did it, not God.

I understand that you believe your therapist, who follows the religion of secular humanism, helped you but why would you trust mankind instead of God. Mankind are liars, we all know that, but God cannot and does not lie, ever. But you choose to believe in mankind and you made them your god.

Like I said to Astreja, even if the Bible would be proven with some evidence, "Now all I have to do is convince you that Noah actually built an ark and brought in the animals two by two, that Jonah was swallowed by a whale..." It is a matter of faith that God said what he said and will do what he will do for the better of mankind and we just don't understand His plan sometimes. The plan will be glorious and God will be deserving of worship.

It is really up to God to convince you all of Him. I am mere mortal that cannot even attempt a task that great. I am only to preach the word (in and out of season)I have done so. If you are all still wanting me to help you understand more then I am always hear for any of you. If you want to vent your frustrations like Phant, Can't Spell and sometimes boomslang, you have the free will to do so and I forgive you.

Oh and webmaster just say what you are just dying to say. Make your point

Enjjpt said...

Dan said:
"I know a woman who was raped by her own father and she hates God for that. But it was the daddy that did it, not God."

Here is where you are wrong Dan. If your 'god' cared for his people 'he' would have stopped her from being raped. If you walked into a room where someone was raping one of your children Dan, whould you just sit there and watch with a bucket of popcorn because you dont want to "violate the free-will" of the rapist? If you just watched and did nothing, you would be an accomplice to the crime.

If your 'god' is omnipotent, and omnipresent, then HE is responsible and GUILTY as an accessory to the crime of rape.

Epicurus was right.

Jim Arvo said...

Dan said "The dead sea scrolls put that argument to rest a long time ago, they showed the historical accuracy and authenticity."

Here is what the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed: The Old Testament texts were redacted very little between the time they were written and the next-oldest surviving text fragments. They also revealed a great array of Jewish sects prior to 70 CE. There is still a great deal of debate over the significance of the scrolls. They do not lend one iota of credibility to any fantastic stories of the Bible, however. Yes, they go back quite far. But stories are stories. There is still no corroboration for any of it (save for some mundane historical facts).

If anything, the scrolls lend credibility to the hypothesis that Christianity began as a Gnostic cult; that is, a belief in "Christ" as Logos, not god incarnate.

You are still playing your "presupposition" game. The difference between your presuppositions and ours are enormous. Yours are indelible. You are not willing to challenge them or even examine them. Thus, it is you who is held hostage by presuppositions, not us. Most of us here have already demonstrated the capacity to examine and change deeply-held presuppositions. So, let's not hear that excuse any more. I suspect you hide behind that accusation because you cannot support your assertions.

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