I no longer believe

Sent in by Ray J

This is written for the purposes of 'coming out,' to finalise within myself what I have come to understand, and so others know that what they're doing and thinking is ok.

I am a bible college graduate (Faith Mission Bible College, Edinburgh) and a BA(Hons) Theology graduate (Nazarene Theological College, Manchester.)

I was the guy in school who made the anonymous evangelistic posters and stuck them up around the school.

I'm the guy who wouldn't go to my school formal becuase it was an un-Christian alcohol-fest.

I'm the guy that taught the others at Bible College about sanctification and initially shook my head at any bible other than the KJV.

I'm the guy who stood at 'open-air meetings' in Edinburgh and allowed myself to be laughed at, have stones thrown at me, and stood up bravely to teach the Gospel of Christ because I would stand against the world and be a fool for Christ.

I'm also the guy who felt a lot of misery becuase the world was such an awful bad place, a world full of sinners, and I wasn't one them...except that sometimes I was, that f****d with my 'heart.'

I'm the guy who missed out on so much of the social life a kid has because I was a Christian & I was gonna stand by Jesus rather than join the infidels.

I'm the guy who didn't discover I was actually an independent person until a little later because I was concerned with being someone else (Jesus Christ) rather than being myself, the guy who suffered a smack right between the eyes when I realised that I could be myself. I'm still dazzled by that smack between the eyes. It's great.

The first inkling that it was all nonsense was when I said in one of my missionary reports in-front of hundreds of people that I gave all of the glory to God for our missionary success and not to the organisation (I actually said it emphatically three times to impress my peers, "said brave words to impress the fundies" as a line in one of my poems goes.) My Faith Mission overseers pulled me in for saying this (SURPRISE!! Thought I was doing what was expected, thought I'd be declared a brave unshakable man of God) gave me the most blatant b******ing I had had up to that point, made me pray at the end to make it a 'Christian' b******ing and then boasted to someone afterword that I was 'that small' (showing a small size with fingers) when I left the office. (the person they boasted to informed my Father about their attitude.)

It's not out of anger at this that I left, although I am angry at how I was treated, it's just that this made me realise that I'd been serving a system and not Jesus. So, I resolved to serve Jesus alone, as I began to do this and think for myself I began to change and became vocal about it which caused one student to tell me that I had darkness in my eyes and was leading the group of guys I socialised with down hill.

So, I went to do my BA to learn more about the Bible and the tradition so I could serve my God in full truth and honesty forever-more, over the process of studying I slowly came to realise that it doesn't make sense. Just look at the proceeding pagan myths, the theories of NT construction not to mention the fact that Christianity simply uses the same arguments over and above Judaism as Islam uses over and above Christianity as Bahai uses over and above them all....where you gonna stop with that then, and man I wish God would stop starting all these new religions lol.)

On-top of that, as a philosophy, it's very in-humane, the god behind this existence just philosophically can't be sensibly thought of in the same way as the Christian God.

You wanna learn about god? Get your head outta that holy book (Man if gods gonna teach us he isn't going to write it in an abusable twistable book) and look at what's around you.

I've spent the last 3 years since graduating trying to convince myself that it is true, but it can't be done, the evidence says it's not, and I feel so happy that I no longer believe in this. That I've been strong enough to overcome the psychological bashing Christianity had previously given me. I feel so free, so REDEEMED, it's unbelievable!

The only reason someone who pursues an honest evaluation into Christianity will continue to believe in Christianity is because they want it to be true more than they want to discover the truth.

Thanks to deciding to serve Jesus alone I no longer believe the system they blamed him on or the book they wrote about him. I think there probably was an enthusiastic Jewish preacher behind the stories, but f*** did his followers screw him over. Poor guy.

I'm not an atheist though, I don't think that makes enough sense either, eternally existent physical matter makes a whole lot less sense to me than an eternally existent metaphysical energies (god in popular thought,) but I can understand why some are. It might even be 'god' who helped me get out of the Christian nonsense because whilst still a Christian I prayed very earnestly again and again to know the truth and see reality, maybe my desires where somehow acknowledged by the energies behind existence I don't know. My studies suggest some sort of pantheistic 'god,' but I also think that the only honest philosophical perspective on 'god' is that of agnosticism.

Only problem is I gave my whole education over to this Christian foolishness, despite one of my teachers telling me not to, what a waste...but then, becuase of who I was, if I hadn't I'd still be stuck in that mythological & oppressive anti-human system.

Now for the closing note of my freedom song: for those who think that my only problem is encountered in evangelical theology, I began training some time after my evangelical education to work towards becoming an Eastern Orthodox priest, but their theologies fall apart too. And I've read Brian McLaren and been a student and advocate of Emerging Christianity for the past couple of years, but then I woke up. There's no point in building an emerging post-modern theology upon myths that just aren't true, no matter how post-modernly palatable these new theologies happen to be, the myths they are built on just aren't true, so there's no point in advocating an immature theology which exists only to preserve ancient myths in new theologies. Just drop the myths and move on.

To monitor comments posted to this topic, use .


Edwardtbabinski said...

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DOWNLOAD "Why This Universe"
article by Robert Kuhn (PDF)

Edwardtbabinski said...

Hi Ray,
It's not too late to go back to college and get a degree in one of the things you mentioned, is it?

I'm another former tongue-speaking Christian who was elected president of the most evangelical Christian group on my college campus, Chi Alpha. Years later, after study, thought, prayer, and struggle, I admitted I didn't believe as I once did. My testimony is online, and titled, "If It Wasn't For Agnosticism, I Wouldn't Know WHAT to Believe." I'm also a blog member and sometime contributor, along with former ministers and former seminarians, over at "Debunking Christianity." You might want to become a member too, add your name to the roll. The person who founded "Debunking Christianity" studied apologetics at an American college, including classes with William Lane Craig, Evangelical apologist.

Best wishes along your life's journey,

Edward T. Babinski [editor of Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists]

Valerie Tarico said...

Don't think that your theology training is wasted, if what appeals to you is psychology or counseling. Millions of people need healing from one form or another of authoritarian Christianity. And few psychologists offer assistance with this kind of recovery process. People don't even consider that such help might be available. They often suffer in silence, blaming themselves. That is why this site is so important.

Orthodox Christian dogmas are some of the more toxic viral ideas in our society today. There is a desperate need for healers who understand the power of belief, the nature of Christian dogmas specifically, and the harm they can sometimes do.

All the best,

Valerie Tarico
psychologist, Seattle
(vt at valerietarico.com)

Lance said...

That took a lot of guts to leave what you have spent so much of your life working on. For me as an engineer, I was able to pitch christianity and then keep right on going with my career.

It is hard for me to imagine how difficult that must have been for you. Kudos.

Plato said...

Hi Ray J

Welcome to Club Reason. I am also one of those who has been through the theological maze and am acquainted with the Faith Mission Bible School! My, but you have been wonderfully delivered!!! I have also rubbed shoulders with the Nazarene Church. After some 35 years as a pastor and evangelist I discovered the real truth of those words, "My chains fell off, my heart was freed, I rose, went forth and followed ..." REASON!
I am in the UK and if you wish to chat please make contact. I have been freed for some 14 years now!
Cheers, mate!
PS I am in the process of publishing my book ... EVANGELICALISM - ANOTHER HALLUCINOGENIC

Anonymous said...

Hey Ray,

Create a website and give online advice to people. Some who claim to be psychics do it all the time. You have the training, you could make money, too.

Astreja said...

Anonymous, I don't believe in your god; and I have no intention of carrying on an e-mail conversation with you. Talk to us here if you have something to say.

boomSLANG said...

Hey?..can I play? lol

Anony- I just wanted to see things from your point of view..

Not a problem.

Okay, we dismiss Yahweh/Son/Holy spirit as non-existant, for the same reasons you dismiss Allah, Zeus, Poseiden, Quetzalcoatl, and myriad other known gods throughout history. Also take note--revelation..i.e.. the "Holy Bible", is NOT considered credible/objective evidence that any biblegod exists, that is, unless you are prepared to accept the "Holy Qu'ran" and "Dianetics" as "evidence" that Allah and Lizard-men exist, respectively.

Furthermore, nor is the personal testimony of Christians acceptable evidence for anything.......that is, again, UNLESS you are prepared to accept the personal testimony of Muslims, Buddhists, Scientologists, Bigfoot trackers, Nessie trackers, UFOlogists/abductees, and on, and on, and on, and on. Agreed?

Anony- not[here] to say hey I'm right your wrong and shove my religion down your throat I'm not that type of person..

That's refreshing, hopefully it will "stick".

Anony: so if you would please explain these things to me, I like learning and meeting new people to see were your coming from.

Only speaking for myself---I'm a non-theist. I'm "coming from" the skeptical view that all religious belief/dogma is subjective hogwash. If you are skeptical of my skepticism?....let's talk.


Anonymous said...

Wow,Thank you.So give me your testimony,what has your God done to make you say "hey this is the right religion,and i'm going to serve you."?And if you don't have a God why not give him a chance?Talk to him.Tell him to prove himself to you.(not to offend you) but it says in the bible put him to a test,and see if he won't pour out a blessing you can't contain.So I guarentee if you do he will prove himself to you.I want you to do me a favor,and give me the honors of recording your dreams,tell me what you dream of after you read this message.And on the other hand,out of respect for you,I'll give your God(if you have one) a chance.
boomslang-we dismiss

yahweh/son/holy spirit....

what is that reason?or atleast yours.so please...let's talk

webmdave said...


Dumbo was convinced he couldn't fly without his magic feather.

Then, one day, he found out he could fly without it.

You too are capable of leading a productive, satisfying life without your magic feather.

May you one day realize that all the changes you've accomplished in your life are the result of your own efforts.

Astreja said...

Anonymous, I myself do not "serve" gods. I consider them to be role models and mentors, and in the case of the Norse gods, members of my family. According to the mythology of my ancestors, we are the children of the gods and therefore we are gods ourselves.

It is not important to me that gods be "real" in any scientific sense. However, it is critical that I find their ideas and their behaviours inspiring. Otherwise, I simply wouldn't bother with them. And I find the god of the Bible to be so horrific in its behaviour that I feel no desire to accord it any respect at all.

I was born to a nominally Christian family (Anglican + United Church of Canada) and read most of the Bible at an extremely early age. At no time in my life did I feel any particular attraction to the Bible message, with the sole exception of Matthew 25:35-45. This to me, is simply decent human behaviour worthy of emulation.

The so-called sacrifice of Jesus leaves me cold -- I do not feel any particular sympathy for him. Quite frankly, I've felt more intense grief for dead mice that my cats have dragged in.

Threats of hellfire, Pascal's Wager, "He died for you" guilt trips, and similar coercive measures simply won't work on me. If you'd like to know why, read my Ex-timony.

And if you try to convince me there is one and only one god, I'm liable to look at you funny. *No* empirical evidence has been found for the existence of *any *gods. I'm resigned to the fact that they probably exist only in our minds, as archetypes. And, in the playground of my mind, I'd rather have many quirky and entertaining deities than one jealous asshole who thinks that torture and murder are somehow "just".

boomSLANG said...

Anonymous: So another kudos to everyone one being intelligent,patient,and mature on everyones opinions. [bold added]

Anony-non, I think I can speak for the entire class on this one---that if your fantastic "belief" falls into the category of, quote, opinions...then none of us have an issue with you.

"Kudos" on coming to terms with that.

boomSLANG said...

Anonymous "1", or "2", or a different no-named Christian; or possibly the same one, said:

Boomslang I'm "prepared" to accept your testimony...type away my friend.

Simple. My "testimony" is I see no credible evidence for any gods. 'Got any?

PS: If you made a faux pas, and you now claim your "belief" is more than "opinion", now's the time to put forth your objective evidence for examination.

Please note: The fact that you got your life "turned around"; or got your troubles fixed; or got your head out of your a$$, or whatever, isn't "evidence" for a "god"....if it is, then we're obligated to count the people whose lives got turned around by "Muhammed", "Buddha", and the "Ghost of Dr. Phil".

Waiting on that evidence.

boomSLANG said...

Dear Anonymous(s),

Did you direct questions specifically to me? I'm sorry, I missed that....could you repeat those questions? Since I already gave you my testimony, I assume you have other questions, then? I'd be happy to answer any question you have. In fact, since I'll likely be "struggling" for those answers, that'll give you ample time to gather your objective evidence, right?

Anony's questions, 1 & 2:

What's [their] testimony?...Did they pray,and ask Allah to help them out? I would like to know maybe then they would have a point or something to stand on, what do they get out of [their] religion?

Answer(s): Um, yes, Anony.....Muslims "pray" to "God", just like Christians do, m'kay? Just go to any Muslim website, and strike up a chat with a "believer", and they'll personally give you their "non-opinion" testimony as to how Allah "answers prayer" and "works miracles". Keep us posted.


boomSLANG said...

No-name Christian said: Please give me a website to go to so I may fulfill that task.

NO. You found this Ex-christian website on your own, so you can find a Muslim website on your own. It should be easy---the latter far out-numbers the former. Are you far enough along in your PC skills to perform a Google or Yahoo search? I would hope so.

No name continued: How do you know this information is accurate?About Allah answering prayers.

The same way we're expected to know if your "information is accurate"---based on your word. Dare I ask---you do see the problem with that now, don't you?

Anonymous said...

Webmaster, I wish you could lose the "anonymous log on. I know that it is not feasible, but it should would make the conversations easier to follow.

Hey Plato! When do you anticipate the publication of your book?

Jim Arvo said...

In response to Anonymous...

I hereby invite any and all invisible conscious beings of any sort to make themselves known to me. This invitation has no strings attached, and no expiration date. If you wish for me to know of your existence, you presumably know where I live, and how to contact me. You also know that I have nothing at all against invisible beings--if you actually exist, then please let me know!

Anonymous, do you see any problem with my open-ended invitation? Do you think it adequate? If there is anything more you think I should add, please let me know. I'll be happy to do so, provided it does not entail dishonesty. Okay?

Astreja said...

Anonymous: "So if you did belive in God at one point of time..."

Hold it right there. I never believed in the Biblical god, nor have I ever approached religion from the perspective of blind faith. Reading the Bible effectively inoculated me against Christianity for my entire life, because I found so many of the Biblical stories crude and abhorrent and, well, unbelievable.

And what makes you think that I didn't understand the Bible at age seven? The fact that I didn't reach the same conclusions as you? Perhaps you are the one who misunderstood.

"astreja,May I ask what you have against God that makes you describe him as horrific?"

The flood and the murder of the Amakalites. For starters.

And your comments about the devil are just plain bullshit. Are you telling me that your precious little god can't effectively deal with its own worst enemy? This is obviously some strange new definition of "omnipotent" that I wasn't previously aware of.

Some of your other points:

If I *had* to choose a religion and practice it to the exclusion of all others, it would almost certainly be Ásatrú. I agree 100% with its moral standards, I'm already on good terms with its gods, and I like the mythology.

As for your own criteria for a god ("...It would have to be a God that could perform miracles,a God that I could ask to fix things and he would..."), how would you determine that any miracle-working fixer-of-things was actually a god? It could just as easily be an advanced life form from another planet.

boomSLANG said...

Annoynomous: Another GENERAL question,if you had a religion,how would you prove to people that your God and religion was real?

Um, if my "religion" was real and verifiable, I wouldn't need to prove it.

'Get it yet?

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous said "When you tell HIM to reveal Himself,..."

I'm not telling anybody to do anything! I am extending an invitation to ANY entity of ANY description to contact me if they wish to do so. To be more precise, I am RE-issuing my invitation (for your benefit), as I have plainly stated since childhood that I'd be happy to acknowledge and/or converse with any entity that has the means and the desire to communicate with me. Do you find fault with such an invitation?

Anonymous continued "...don't take it as a joke, mean it."

How strange that you assume I'm joking. I do mean it. If there is some entity that wishes to communicate with me, why on earth would I simply refuse to do so? That makes no sense whatsoever. Wouldn't it be a wonderful opportunity to learn something?

Anonymous "After you tell him,..."

Tell WHO? I don't even know who or what I'm talking to yet. If some entity responds to my invitation, at that point I may know whether it's a he, she, it, them, or whatever. Until then I would merely be assuming or guessing, right?

Anonymous "...tell me what you dream of the following night."

Why do you assume that such an entity would choose to contact me through dreams? Surely you do not profess to know the MO of all possible entities that are capable of communicating with me, do you? Why not leave open other possibilities? Is it not possible for some entity to communicate directly with my waking brain, or stimulate my auditory or visual sensors?

Anonymous: "And take note of this: Please be mature,and respect me and I'll do the same.THANK YOU:)"

You obviously have some issue with the invitation that I issued. I asked you specifically if you would have me change it in any way, and all you have done is to cast aspersions. Let me ask again. Would you have me phrase the invitation differently? I will gladly attempt to accommodate your suggestions so long as they make sense to me, and so long as they do not require me to be dishonest in any way. I ask you to kindly keep the unsavory implications to a minimum and respond directly to what I have written. Okay? Thanks.

Anonymous: "Please list ONE specific NONE MATERIAL need in your life.(astreja,I know you'll be mature,but boomslang and jim arvo are experts when it comes to sarcasm)..."

I am hardly an expert at sarcasm; at times I wish I were. Let me be as blunt. I am addressing your request as directly as I can. That you see it as sarcasm is somewhat revealing. Perhaps it sounds absurd to you because it is not couched in the mystical and/or emotional language you are accustomed to. I have no way of knowing unless you try to figure out what bugs you so much and communicate it. I'd prefer not to guess.

As for non-material needs, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Clearly you mean to exclude food, water, shelter, etc. Perhaps you mean emotional needs? If that's your intent, then I have all the typical needs of any other human being: personal interaction with friends and family, acceptance, intellectual stimulation, physical recreation, etc. Is any of this what you had in mind? If not, please clarify and I'll try again.

By the way, if you plan to continue posting here can you PLEASE pick a name other than "Anonymous"? Just click on the "OTHER" button.

Steven Bently said...

Gee I'm really disappointed that this blog no longer accepts anonymous comments :-)

To the anonymous chicko, if you will click on my name above (anonymous 1-a) and read my blog, I promise you will have a life-changing experience, you'll not need to pray to a god ever again to receive a blessing, you'll be set free from all of the religious nonsense that you've allowed yourself to become brainwashed in the blood of the lamb bs.

Just try it and see what happens, you have absolutely nothing to lose, except you may gain some wisdom and see what has happened to you and also to the rest of the population of the world.

Once you're there click on every month and read and leave a comment if you want to discuss your beliefs, although if you read my comments you soon see how foolish you beliefs are and have been since the beginning of time.

If you do not go and read my blog, it will show me your complete insincerity on the subject of religions and beliefs.

It's almost 4.00 pm

Sincerely, Steven Bently

boomSLANG said...

Anony: If you had to choose a religion,which one would it be?(ex.christianity,etc.)
But how would they know it was real?

I'm sorry, but I think there's a misunderstanding---"ex.christianity" is NOT a "religion", for starters.

Secondly, regardless of what religion I hypothetically "have to" choose, no one would "know" it's "real" unless I could provide evidence that it's real.


Anony: Rules:
1.NO SARCASM (ex.I wish you would get off this page)

A request to leave isn't necessarily sarcasm. 'Just thought you should know.

Anony: Please list ONE specific NONE MATERIAL need in your life

Okay, I'll play along(at least, for the moment) Answer: *Healthy thoughts.

*Note: In essence, I realize that this is a "technicality", because "healthy thoughts" are dependent on a healthy brain. Oh well.

freeman said...

I'll play along!
I am about to leave work and must lock the gate at the rear of the building. If any of you have been watching the news, it has been raining constantly here in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area and currently it is storming! I will invoke this unproven deity to reveal itself with a lightning bolt through me as I hold onto the metal fence.

Fair enough! Will be back shortly.

freeman said...

Well, I ask to feel the christian deity's presence and nothing happened. Why not strike an unbeliever down and us me as a warning to others? Oh yea, its only make believe!

freeman- free man from religious dogma

Astreja said...

(shrugs) I'll play.

My request is simple. I have a medical condition that, although not life-threatening, has occasionally interfered with my life since about age five. The condition is chronic insomnia. It'd be nice to have it finally go away.

boomSLANG said...

Registered Anonymous is back with: Boomslang-You've said everything BUT the answer to my question,
you're what I call beating around the bush

Let's see---I take it you mean the, if I "HAD to choose a religion" inquiry? Well, since I noticed that you didn't expound on, or elaborate on, anyone elses answer(in other words, it's a pointless question), I see no reason why I should answer. On the other hand, there's an ever-so-slight chance it may appease you, and you'll be on your merry way. So here it is: "Pantheism".

Registered Anonymous continues: Another thing Boomslang,if you really believe in something,were raised on it,had a self-experience with it,then why do you have to have "evidence?"I want your personal answer please.

I was raised to put spaces after commas.

Okay, my serious answer: Starting at the beginning--- I was "raised" to believe that "storks" bring babies; that "Santa" brings presents; that the "Toothfairy" trades silver dollars for teeth; that the "Easter bunny" hides hard-boiled eggs in the planter, and that all my dead pets, friends, and family are in "Heaven".

Firstly, please take notice that I was FIRST taught, or "raised"(your word), to believe these ideas before I "believed" them. Does that make sense to you? Right, I didn't just create the concepts out of thin air; they didn't originate in my own mind. 'Follow?

So then pre-adulthood comes, and one starts to reason and think for themeselves. One may say to themself, "Hey, wait a minute!...Santa can't fit all those presents in his sleigh"; or "Bunnies don't lay eggs or have access to food coloring"; or "Why is dad reaching under my pillow in the middle of the night?"; or "storks don't bring babies"; or "Hey, why do Adam and Eve have belly-buttons?", etc., etc., etc.

'Get the picture? Those things are ILLogical---they don't make sense, and it creates a cognitive dissonance to continue to believe such things. So THERE is your answer, Anony---that is why I "need evidence" to "believe" those things. Furthermore, I would argue that you dismiss all the same things, for all the same reasons, with exception of your "religious" beliefs.

What's the difference, you might ask? The difference is that the Toothfairy, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, and the stork don't offer eternal life in exchange for belief in them.

God 'less.

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous: "...that's the way [through a dream] I prayed for him [god] to speak to you."

Does your god only perform these feats when asked by believers or can he sometimes figure out what needs to be done on his own? Can you count on him to follow through on your request? More importantly, can you ask him to convey information back to you? If so, can you please ask him what dream he is about to give me and then post it here for me to read tomorrow morning? I would find that truly impressive. Can you do that?

Anonymous: "And I'm talking about God."

Would that be Yahweh? There are lots of "gods"--hundreds, in fact.

Anonymous: "I don't have a problem with you[r] invitation it's just a little...demented."

Because I did not tailor it to Yahweh? Because I leave open more possibilities than you? Please tell. What makes it "demented"? And, by the way, shall I start to use words like "asinine", "sophomoric", or "simple minded" to describe your views? We can go that way if you like. Just let me know.

Anonymous: "And Jim Arvo, do I really have to get a new name? I like anonymous."

No problem. I'll simply assume that every poster called "Anonymous" is you, because I'm tired of trying to distinguish among all of you. Fair enough?

webmdave said...

Ray J has requested that the conversation on this thread be restricted to comments referencing his original post.

All anonymous posts will be deleted from this thread.

Astreja said...

Anon, I actually slept worse last night. Only got about four hours of sleep. But thanks for your concern, I do appreciate the kind thoughts.

Royalty said...

Boomslang:Pantheism is a religion that believes everything and everyone has a god.(Am I right?)You said you didn't believe in Jesus Christ because there was no "proof"....?(looking around the room)...yeah, I'm a little lost.Elaborate PLEASE.

Boomslang:I was raised to put spaces after commas.

Sorry,it took me four times to pass keyboarding,and it's been forever since I took the class.

What you said about the tooth fairy,santa,and the easter bunny,it didn't make sense to me,adults say that because they try to make your childhood "fun."We ARE talking about a matter,that could be as you would say, "real."

By the way,Happy Be-Lated Fourth of July.

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous said "...if someone post something psycho, then it's not me."

I'm NOT going to analyze what each anonymous poster says in order to determine WHICH anonymous poster said it! If you cannot be troubled to think of a unique name by which we can address you and disambiguate you, then you will be unapologetically lumped in with all the others. Sorry. Get used to it--or better yet, THINK OF A NAME!

freeman said...

Ray J,
The only reason someone who pursues an honest evaluation into Christianity will continue to believe in Christianity is because they want it to be true more than they want to discover the truth.

So true!

On another note, I would love to understand the infatuation with the KJV bible? What is so special about it that fundamentalist love?

Anyway, keep reading and the truth about it all being a myth will come forth.

boomSLANG said...

Registered Anonymous is back with: Boomslang:Pantheism is a religion that believes everything and everyone has a god.(Am I right?)

No, of course you're not right. Essentially, "Pantheism" is a doctrine that equates "god" with the forces and laws of the universe..e.g.."nature". In other words, it lets me off the hook for actually believing in a "God", because I know that's an angle you fully intend on trying to use in this, so far, completely silly line of hypothetical questioning.

Registered Anonymous continues: You said you didn't believe in Jesus Christ because there was no "proof"....?(looking around the room)...yeah, I'm a little lost.Elaborate PLEASE.

And I was correct in my estimation, wasn't I? Yes, let's see....you asked me to hypothetically choose to adhere to a belief-system that I don't adhere to in reality, and then proceeded to follow up by making critiques based on my hypothetical answer? Brilliant, simply brilliant. That's a clever angle. Here, let me try:

Me: "Hey, Registered Anonymous, if you HAD to choose a childhood belief as your worldview, what would you pick?"

Anony hypothetically answers: "The Great Pumpkin."

Me: "But you don't believe in an Old Lady who lives in a shoe because there's no "proof"....?(looking around the room) Yeah, I'm a little lost. Elaborate PLEASE."

Do you see the the idiocy? Probably not, huh?

Notwithstanding, to conform to a "Pantheist" worldview, my "evidence" for "God" is NATURE. Nature EXISTS. That IS the "proof" that my hypothetical "God" exists. So either way, your analogy flunks.

Registered Anonymous: Sorry,(space) it took me four times to pass keyboarding,(space)and it's been forever since I took the class.

See? It's really easy. Just depress the very same key that you use to put spaces between "words"(the long key) after you use a comma. 'Glad to help, but mostly, it makes reading your pointless blather a little less painful.

Registered Anonymous: What you said about the tooth fairy,__santa,__and the easter bunny,__it didn't make sense to me,__adults say that because they try to make your childhood "fun."__We ARE talking about a matter,__that could be as you would say, "real."

What I'm saying is that you likely learned about "God" from the very same people who convinced you that those other things were "fun", AND that they were "real". The point I'm making, is that the reason that you dismantled the notion(on your own) that those "fun" silly things can actually exist, is because you have no vested interest to keep believing they exist. On the other hand, your "God" belief is different in that it "promises" you that you won't "die". After all, "dying" doesn't sound as "fun" as "Santa Claus", does it?

Not too shockingly, you missed the point of my analogy.

Oh, and now you're spamming the site, to top it off?


Jim Arvo said...

Okay, Anonymous, since you seem to be unwilling to do it, I'm going to make up a name for you. How about if we call you "Wilbur"? This still leaves the problem of disentangling you from dozens of other anonymous posters, but it's a start. Why is this always such a big issue? Why is it so damn hard to use some other name and avoid all the confusion? Can you please explain that to me?

In response to my query about whether Wilbur could obtain information from god about a dream that (supposedly) was imparted by him, Wilbur said "NO. That information is YOUR business,the only thing I COULD do,is probably interpert it for you."

First, I publicly declare that god may release the information to absolutely anybody who wishes to have it, for whatever reason. In fact, I specifically wish for YOU to have it. Now, Wilbur, please either ask your god to reveal it to you (and tell me what happens), or explain why you will not even make the request.

Second, please explain how it is that you are qualified to "interpret" my dreams. Does god inform you when you are right? If so, how? If not, then how do you know when you are right?

Bitchslap said...

"Thanks to deciding to serve Jesus alone I no longer believe the system they blamed him on or the book they wrote about him. I think there probably was an enthusiastic Jewish preacher behind the stories, but f*** did his followers screw him over. Poor guy. " Amen, brother! Between Paul and the church fathers, whatever that guy taught was lost in the shuffle. I'm not too convinced he did exist, nor Paul for that matter, as no manuscripts predate the 3rd or 4th century -- plenty of time for fairy tales.

Regarding the commentary of the anonymi, proof there of Ray's comment about folks wanting to believe what appeals to them rather than any particular truth. Free lunch and eternal life just for reciting a prayer? What a deal!! Eternal torment if I say no? Hmmm, let me exercise my free choice on that one...

I once wondered what all these fine people could be thinking (here on Ex-Christian, that is). Who would not believe in Christ and the Big Guy? It was all more than my mind could accept. Now the shoe is on the other foot and I wonder WTF?!?! How did I ever swallow all that horseshit and not vomit it back out? I used to think I was a rather intelligent fellow (I can already hear the comments from my former fellow-believers), but now I have to wonder. What was that line about fooling most of the people most of the time?

webmdave said...

Ray J has requested that the conversation on this thread be restricted to comments referencing his original post.

I am politely asking the everyone honor that request.

Please don't feed the Christian troll ridiculously registered as anonymous.

Thanks to everyone in advance for giving consideration to this request.

Anonymous said...

The original post form myself should have read 'panentheism,' not 'pantheism.'

Royalty said...

Ray, Wow, where do I start?That was a powerful testimony.You were VERY brave standing up for God like that.I'm a Christian, and I love God to death, but I ask myself would I have done that, and I have to think about it.If I had to create a new definition for brave, THAT would be it.WHERE did you get that kind of boldness?

Former_Fundy said...


I have travelled the same path. I earned a Ph.D. in Theology from Bob Jones University and taught in a Bible college for 9 years. I also pastored for 2. My faith slowly evaporated over a space of several years.

I was terrified because all of my education was in Theology and now I no longer believed. Fortunately, my brother in law offered me an opportunity to go into business with him and it was successful for a couple of years. That gave me enough experience and knowledge to land a job with an executive search firm. I am now a VP with the company.

Good luck to you,

Former Fundy

webmdave said...

Former Fundie, would you do me the honor of contacting me directly? You can do so by clicking here.


Anonymous said...

Wilber said...

Hey you guys, sorry for neglecting you, I just have a question, have you ever googled proof that God (Jesus Christ) is real? If so, did you find anything that was questionable to your religion?

Anonymous said...

Wilbur said...

In the Holy Bible, Job 38:16 God says to Job "Have you entered the springs of the sea?" (which is underwater springs).The bible was written millions and millions of years ago.....we(Science) just discovered underwater springs in the late 1900's.

Anonymous said...

Ray J, will you please do me the highest honors of all and grant me permission to state my scientifical evidence of Jesus Christ on your website? And if you do, please just tell me the rules that I need to follow, and tell me if I have crossed the line in anyway. I just ask you to take this request into consideration, and do what you feel is fair.


Anonymous said...

Hey check out my website www.whenwillyoubelieve.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

Hey check out my website www.jesuschristisrealforeal.blogspot.com

Royalty said...
This comment has been removed by the author.

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