Where was this 'god' when I needed him most?

sent in by Mark

I am a seminary graduate, so I know all the 'arguements' of these shallow, glassy-eyed hypocrites. I served as a 'lay leader' in a couple of churches for 15 years, often being hurt by those who most demanded that I pander to their spiritual 'needs'. Yet god was nowhere when:

1. My wife dies in my arms with cancer five years ago,

2. My Father endured two decades of ill health, and

3. My Mother died of cancer last month.

If you're a Christian reading this, don't you dare tell me "all thisa happened so you can serve God better", else I shall REALLY get angry!


London
England
Joined at 17
Left at 39
Was: Pentecostal
Now: Angery agnostic/atheist
Converted because: My friends are members of a church youth club
De-converted because: The whole thing was no help when the brown stuff hit the twirly thing

127 comments:

Bobby said...

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, but we all everyone of us will eventually face similar situtations, Why? No one has ever known, and may never know, although I believe we all deserve an intelligent answer, no human has ever explained the answers and cannot, it's not available to humans, or the answers have been lost. The Bible is man's panacea until he gets an intelligent answer, the Bible is all people have and is suffient for alot of people, but it was written by humans, not written by any outside intelligent source beyond the scope of our own reality.

The Bible and religion just replaces the, "I don't know." thats all it's for. No one knows how we all got here, and why. It was not meant for us to know. Just live life as you see it, not by what someone else tells you how to live. Your conscious is your God, your God, you are the God of you, not someone elses, we each have our own internal God, it is called me or self, your internal ruler. Best wishes.

jim earl said...

Death is a vital part of life. Religious people try to sell us on what happens to us when we die, like they know. Most of the human race buy it. Religion is but a crutch for those in need of propping up in life. Those of us that don't need a crutch, will face death the same as everyone else, but without the fear of hell, satan and the like. That is sweet. You are fortunate that you are open minded and without beliefs. What more could we ask for? We can face death with the assurance that no "God" is in charge and therefore, no questions as to "Why Me?" We accept death as part of living, at least I do. Of course, that's not to say we won't be sad. We will go through the same process that all humans go through during the death of a loved one. I am sorry about your misfortunes, and wish you the best.

Ric said...

I am deeply sorry for your losses. The truth is that there was no higher reason for this suffering. You will have to find strength within yourself to get through it. I'm pulling for you.

Kevin Smith said...

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss. IMHO, religion claims to offer consolation and purpose for such events, but truely delivers guilt and frustration.

Like Jim Earl is saying, the whole "circle of life" concept, is much more meaningful to me. Without death, there could not be life. If the individual trees in a forest didn't die, all the resources would be depleted and the entire forest would perish.

This approach can appeal to a persons common sense, and removes all the "God wants you to suffer" garbage that comes with religion.

I like the yin/yang philisophical approach to it also. What is happiness without sadness? One can't exist without the other. That's why eternal bliss of a heaven would be meaningless, without some sort of suffering to "compare" it to.

What happens when we die? What comes next? Do we live forever? Who knows! There is no way to know in our state of being. In spite of the horrible things we are faced with here, we have an existience with more beauty and wonder than any human will ever need.

Anyway, that is my two cents. Good luck with sorting things out, hope you feel at home here and can find support among your fellow travelers. I know I have.

John W. Loftus said...

Were you ever in the ministry?

I was and I've just finished a book that will be available within weeks called, "Why I Rejected Christianity: A Fomer Apologist Explains."

Email me at apacaptianjohn@ juno.com

Anonymous said...

I am truly sorry for your losses. As others have pointed out, death is a part of life. A painful part, but an inescapable one. Every day is a gift, so seize it, and try to make the best of it!

The bible, of course, is a house of cards that colapses under it's own weight under close examination. The so-called inerrent word of God, is in reality the word of man, changed, rearranged and manipulated over the centuries. The original content of the bible was lost a 1000 years ago, at least, and what is left are the typos, insertions and rewordings of countless scribes. Not much of a foundation for one of the world's great religions, eh? In short, the emperor has no clothes. If the so-called Christians of the world took the time to examine the book and apply some critial thinking, maybe they wouldn't be using it to pound people they don't like into the ground. Ignorance is bliss, they say, and while they can quote chapter and verse, they remain complete ignorant (or in denial) of how the book we have today was created.

Best of luck to you! The bad always balances with the good, and things are bound to turn your way. I hope it's soon!

Salvatore said...

Dear Mark,

I am deeply saddened to hear of your pain. I, too, was forced to leave 30+ years of Christianity after I simply couldn't justify anymore the intellectual, emotional, psychological, spiritual, and social problems.

Many of the problems that I perceive with Christianity arose after I myself became a father of children. When they would have nightmares, I would immediately go to them and hold them in my arms. When they are discouraged and lower myself to my knees, look them in the eyes and say (e.g., to my son), "You are my boy, and I am your father. I love you." The "Heavenly Father" of Christianity is no such thing.

I now have my children memorize a little phrase:

"For my Daddy,
so loves ME,
that he would give the world,
to save ME,
if ever I were lost."

I wish I had some surreal, spiritual quip to help you get over your pain. But, alas, I cannot. You have your pain and must find something worthwhile to help you past it.

But I will say this: I feel for you. I asked the same question many times, "Where was God?" I consider myself one who ardently sought for Him, and found nothing.

Hold on man. Find a way, any way, to channel your pain for the ultimate good and happiness of humanity. I can't tell you how: you must find your own path.

All of my love to you, in humanity.

Salvatore

Forever and ever said...

Mark
Sorry about the bad news.
As god does not exist. Could that be why,he never told you that your family would never die.

How much did you give to cancer research and the like during your life.

The religious have led us in the wrong direction. They tell us to give to god and he will heal us.God can do miracles. But when you stop and think about it.All god's miracles? are just treatments and never cures. The person healed eventually dies and in most cases a long and painful death.
So what did god give us.Absolutely zero.What can science give us?.Answers and cures.

What an insult it is to man. When god?heals? one man of cancer. While leaving millions of others too die a most painful death. The millions including his own faithful children.

Science and man will deliver to us answers and cures. God by his own confession created evil. So as I see it. He is the author of confusion. Proof of this is easy found within the ranks of the faithful.They all have the the word of god.Yet none of them can agree.
Seems confusing does it not.

So what is the moral of your story mark.?

Love man with all your heart and all your mind.
Give to man that which he should ask of you
Then man will prosper
Then all things will be possible.
Be concerned with today and tomorrow

south2003 said...

Mark,

I'm so sorry and angry at the same time, knowing that it had to take this for you actually know that this being, this thing they call a god was never there and then to witness the hypocrisy and double standards of those repressed Christians.

I too went through the same dilemmas so I know exactly how you feel.

Take care and stick around

ward said...

I think that there is a very sad outlook on Christianity moving through our country. I'm aware, being a Christian myself, that many of the evangelical movements are giving thoughtful Christianity a bad name. I say thoughtful Christianity because I myself understand that Adam and Eve were ways for an unscientific people to probe into their origins and the origins of the God that they felt so lovingly in their lives. Adam literally means "the man" shown as a symbol of all humanity. In the New Testament we have such phenomenon as the virgin birth, the incarnation, and many other mythological associations of Jesus, which seem present in almost every religious culture. The thing is, for me, Jesus stands for the beauty that God can equip each and every human being with. We are all sons and daughters of something divine whether you say God, Allah, or find peace through the cosmos something is greater than us. I'm sorry for your pain but God doesn't cause the wrongs of this world nor does he cause blessings. My best friend died a short time ago of a rare spinal disease. Do I believe that God willed this or that anyone’s life be benefited from her death? To say that would be absurd by the light that she displayed through her life, yet death is inevitable. I have no illusions about heaven for it is all speculation but I still feel God's presence with me despite the pain of being without my loved one. I hope you find peace.

Dano said...

ward,
You said:
"The thing is, for me, Jesus stands for the beauty that God can equip each and every human being with"

What's so beautiful about making some poor Rabbi think he is God's only son, and then telling him his father needs to have him as a sacrifice? That is BARBARIC AND UGLY!

Jim Lee said...

The supposed Jesus supposedly said. "Anything you ask for in my name shall be given unto you". So who's the liar?

Forever and ever said...

Ward
Only a fool would believe in a god.
Only the fearful will remain religious.All you have is a relationship with words.Your jesus
is slowly dieing and will soon join mithra and his mates.

The christian the muslem the mormon etc all have two things in common.Blind faith fueled with fear and pride, that makes it possible to beleive a lie.And gods magic book (s).
Wake up.Then maybe one day you will say. I am a man.
Does the athiest exist.?How can someone not believe in something that does not exist.Please correct me if I am in error.!!

Anonymous said...

Im just saying sorry for your losses. I am a christian but I won't try to give excuses for God or our religion. Life is hard, Im sry that it has been so hard for you.

Also, I just wanted to tell you that I will be praying for you. I know that you don't think it will make a difference, but I hope it does help at least in some small way. Just know, I care, and Im praying for you. Im sry for all the pain you must be going through right now.

Anonymous said...

I think we all in here are with you in your terrible losses, Mark. And understand your pain in finding out that the God up there is so silent, so absent.

Life is suffering. This is the bald truth pronounced by Buddha thousand of years ago. It is not meant to be a pessimistic view of life but a realistic one. Until and unless we move beyond that truth and face life courageously without having to look to any super power out there for help, we will be living in denial essentially and when we do indeed face pain and losses that life throws at us, we are surprised and hurt. But why should we?!! Every single one of us will face the death of loved ones and the loss of things and people we cherish. No one is exempted from this. Not kings, not princes, not powerful people. No riches can bribe death away. Nobody and no god owes us a good life or a life without problems, pain and losses. A lot of us will however do everything and anything to avoid this truth.

Just Rick said...

Ward,

You said "The thing is, for me," and this to me is the central issue with which why religeon is fraudulant. To you it is this. To him it is that. To her it is something else. To those over there it is yet another thing. You all look into this book that is to be a guide and each and every one of you come away with a different ideal or understanding of what it is. Even people going to the same church will eventually discover some difference that they have with everyone else there. There is no divine inspiration or understanding because there is no devine entity to provide it.

This is all the proof that I need to know that god did not create mankind. Mankind created god.

Forever and ever said...

Ric Says
I'm pulling for you
The Christians say
I'm praying for you.
Ric
How about pulling your wallet out of your pocket and giving more to cancer research.
Christians
How about Praying your wallet out of your pocket and giving to cancer research.
When I became Christian.Every sunday the pastor would say give to god.So I did.
I put money in the plate.A man came and picked up the plate and gave it to another man.Who then gave it to other men.
Can you please let me know.When god gets his money.Or are you fooling us and god doesn't get the money.Or are you saying that god is man.? Or is the pastor god.?
For all of you who said sorry.So am I.Sorry that you will be sorry when you lose a family member in the future to cancer because you have done nothing about it.
For all? of the readers who have given to research.So as to solve our problems.I say.You have only given a little from the much that you have.
Crykey I'm angry fair dink'm

Joslyn said...

My father died in a tragic helicopter crash 2 years ago and I still remember that day vividly till today.I was at work that morning when my brother called me on my cellphone to tell me the unfortunate news.A few hours before,my dad sent me an e-mail to say that he was going off to the airport.I thought my brother was just joking when he called up till he started to cry.I was stunned.How can this be?My father was a church pastor and he was the president of the largest church orginization in Sarawak,and he was the most God fearing man that I've known.My first thoughts was where was God when my father needed him?How dare He abandoned my father at this time when he doing God's work at that time (my dad was the orginizing committee for the annual mountain prayer rally & he was going early for the preparation)?All these questions were on mind.

Even though,I came from a Christian family,these thoughts were on my mind all day.I didn't understand why God took my dad away when we needed him.My mom was also a full time church servant,while my two siblings were still studying full time.Only my older sister & I were working and we didn't make that much.Why would God take his servant when he was serving him?When I heard the news,I was in shock.No tears came out from my eyes.

Later that day,when I saw my dad's body,his face looked at peace (even thought his body was in a bad shape).I guess he wanted to go and see his maker when he was serving God.My dad's passing has touched the lives of people around him.Even though he is sorely missed by my family & I,we know that he is in a better place.Even though, I didn't know why God took him,I know God has a purpose for him.

God did not abandoned my family.He has blessed and provided for my family even though after my dad's passing.Now,both my younger sister and brother are fully sponsored in their studies.My older sister is now blessed with a high paying job.I, on the other hand has been doing well both in part time studies and work.My mom is still serving full time in the women's ministry at our local church and has the support of the church members.We still think of dad everyday,but I have happy thoughts of him.He is smiling down from Heaven,with God of which he wants to be.

Anonymous said...

Joslyn, what are you doing trawling an ex-christian website? Not that you are not welcome. All Christians are welcome to post their views but please no preaching, no condescencsion and no shoving down our throats. We have all been there before. If you find meaning and purpose in the one up there, I am happy for you. But just so to let you know, many people has suffered far more and has gone on with life with courage, humility, meaning and love without God. Many Christians have suffered a lot, prayed a lot but got a big big silence. And no blessings flowed thereafter. They just keep quiet, have "faith" and trudges on. It is this capriciousness of god in "answering" some prayers but mostly keeping silent for the others that is so unacceptable. We cannot put it to being "his will". And the sooner we stop clinging to that false hope, the better we are off living a courageous life, without him.

Anonymous said...

Dear Joslyn, I am so sorry to hear of your dad's sudden passing 2 years ago.

I hope to say what I want to say below with humility and without malice.

Question - what make your dad so special, Joslyn, that he should not suffer sudden unexpected death? What make him any different from any of us? Just because he is a pastor of a big church? Just because he ministers to tribal people? Does this make him more special than the rest of us deserving of god's special treatment? Shielded from what the rest of us mortals are subject to?

That is the naivete and may I say, arrogance, of many Christians. Many of you think that just because you do god's work or believe in him, you are afforded special privileges and protection. How self-absorb and selfish can such thinking be?

If eternity (as you are taught over the pulpit) and life forever in god after death is something that you believe in, right into your very bones, why should the sudden death of your dad be such a shock to you? If life after death is infinitely better than life here on earth, why so much fuss when things go wrong in this life? If this life is full of sin and sorrow, why cling on so hard to this life?

Christians' reactions to bad things in life is very telling. It tells that they do not quite believe what they are taught. Most pay only lip service. If shows the greedy side of them - the very best of what life got to offer here (and expecting god to ensure such blessings in life) and an eternity of the same thing after death. And when things do not go their way, they are "shocked". It is all so ironic and saddeningly amusing.

Albert Enstien once said that the assuagement of pain is one of the main driver behind every human endeavours and beliefs. Belief in god is a classic example of humans way of finding a way to assuage pains suffered in this life. Nothing more. Such need to assuage pain does not mean there is a god.

It is time Christians and everybody grow up and face life head on courageously.

Shannon said...

Joslyn

Did god really provide for your family after you dad died or did everyone get up off his or her ass and did what he or she had to do to live?

How do we get to look down from heaven and not feel the pain that our death caused our loved ones? I, mean, how can we smile down from heaven yet not feel the anguish rising up? It seems very wrong that we wouldn’t be able to feel that pain. That it could be so cavalierly dismissed. How could we know such joy that heaven is supposed to be if we get any inkling of the suffering that our death left behind?

.:webmaster:. said...

Actually, anony, although you got the gist of what Einstein meant, here is what he actually said, in context:

Religion and Science
from Albert Einstein. The world as I see it

Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of felt needs and the assuagement of pain. One has to keep this constantly in mind if one wishes to understand spiritual movements and their development. Feeling and desire are the motive forces behind all human endeavour and human creation, in however exalted a guise the latter may present itself to us. Now what are the feelings and needs that have led men to religious thought and belief in the widest sense of the words? A little consideration will suffice to show us that the most varying emotions preside over the birth of religious thought and experience. With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions--fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death. Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal
connexions is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates for itself more or less analogous beings on whose wills and actions these fearful
happenings depend. One's object now is to secure the favour of these beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which, according to the tradition handed down from generation to generation, propitiate them or make
them well disposed towards a mortal. I am speaking now of the religion of fear...

Salvatore said...

Dear "Forever and Ever"--

I'm not only "sorry" for Mark, but I also give 10% of my income to the Children's Miracle Network, which is focused on helping sick children (many with cancer).

skiendog said...

i am very sorry that this happened to you, and you will have my prayers. sounds just like Job. where was God when you needed him most? God was always with you, and he still is now. God would never give you anything that you couldnt handle. cause he loves you.

and to the einstein discussion, was it not also einstein that said:
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Anonymous said...

It's just so sad to read all of your comments. I was in a search engine looking for something in a totally different subject and ended up on this website. I see your attitudes towards God and I see your hurts. The fact is, life is going to stink at times and death, disease and despair is going to come into our lives because we live in a world full of sin. We will go through these times either way, I just choose to go through it with my Jesus helping me out. He is real, He does deliver people, He does do miracles and He does love. Merry Christmas to all.

Salvatore said...

Dear Anonymous of "12/23/2005 11:05 AM"--

Hmmm. If only I could've met "your Jesus" when I was scurrying about trying to find "my Jesus." Boy, 30-some-odd years of searching and, hmmm, nothing.

Would it be too much of a burden for you to provide some evidence for his "reality," "deliverance,"
"miracles," and (raised-eyebrow) "love"?

Dave8 said...

skiendog: "...where was God when you needed him most? God was always with you, and he still is now. God would never give you anything that you couldnt handle. cause he loves you."

God seems to give people death every day through torture and starvation, at the hands of humanity or nature, i.e., tsunamis, etc... Oh, that's right, that's what eternal salvation covers... giving humanity a consolation prize when god doesn't show up... it allows many religious zealots to overcome the "why bad things happen to good people" syndrome... Its obvious if a religious person accepts that god works in a persons 'life, then god also works the bad, to include the torture, pain and suffering also... if someone wants to give credit to god, give god "all" the credit... the good, the bad and the ugly...

skiendog: "and to the einstein discussion, was it not also einstein that said:
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Science is prompted to answer questions that the superstitious religious pose as fact, without religious "claims" science would be lame... and... the religion without science is blind, is more... as science progressively whittles away the superstitions and false statements, posed by the religious, what remains, becomes more focused and "visible", philosophically... in short, god, to many intelligent people, represents the "unknown", a person or religion is 'blind' if they still adhere to beliefs that science has proven to "not" be attributed to a god...

Problem is, staunch orthodox religionists refuse to accept that written texts, thousands of years old, posing the earth as "flat", with talking donkeys, snakes, etc., are erroneous... as they still worship according to these magical and outdated premises that have been scientifically proven to be false... these believers are the truly blind...

Jose said...

Sorry to hear about your losses.

But the fact is, people die. Shit happens. Sometimes life sucks ass so hard your whole world will start to stink.

There's no point being angry at God, he isn't there. If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at the people who misled you when it counted. Be angry at the people who forced you to spend years of your life singing to a brick wall instead of spending time with those you loved.

Be angry at yourself for believing a lie, but God? You may as well be angry at the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the proverbial Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Learn from your mistakes and suck it up. Spend time with those remaining in your life. Don't take empty platitudes from Christian well-wishers at face value.

Learn your lesson and make each new day count from now on.

This is your one chance at life... don't fuck it up.

.:webmaster:. said...

To skiendog:

"I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict between religion and science cannot exist, I must nevertheless qualify this assertion once again on an essential point, with reference to the actual content of historical religions. This qualification has to do with the concept of God. During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution human fantasy created gods in man's own image, who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world. Man sought to alter the disposition of these gods in his own favor by means of magic and prayer. The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old concept of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes.

Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. That is, if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?

The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God. It is the aim of science to establish general rules which determine the reciprocal connection of objects and events in time and space. For these rules, or laws of nature, absolutely general validity is required--not proven. It is mainly a program, and faith in the possibility of its accomplishment in principle is only founded on partial successes. But hardly anyone could be found who would deny these partial successes and ascribe them to human self-deception. The fact that on the basis of such laws we are able to predict the temporal behavior of phenomena in certain domains with great precision and certainty is deeply embedded in the consciousness of the modern man, even though he may have grasped very little of the contents of those laws. He need only consider that planetary courses within the solar system may be calculated in advance with great exactitude on the basis of a limited number of simple laws. In a similar way, though not with the same precision, it is possible to calculate in advance the mode of operation of an electric motor, a transmission system, or of a wireless apparatus, even when dealing with a novel development."


Quotes copied from Religion and Science by Albert Einstein

I thought for a Christian that context was everything. Let's stick to that ideal.

Jezebel_in_a_Red_Teddy said...

AS A CHILD...

I lost my "faith" in much of the same way (the beginning of the long and hard journey out of hell, my family are all very strict church-goers). I was eleven years old. My cousin, who was in his 30's, had just married a most beautiful woman and was very in love with her. She had strawberry blonde hair (so do I). Well she got cancer, got fat, was in a wheelchair and was about to die. I prayed real hard that she'd live, I mean I really prayed. She died. I was eleven years old. I lost my "faith". It was weird but that was the moment I knew the Christian base upon which I had been raised was false. So, you're not alone.

Forever and ever said...

Dear "Forever and Ever"--

I'm not only "sorry" for Mark, but I also give 10% of my income to the Children's Miracle Network, which is focused on helping sick children (many with cancer).

Thanks Salvatore.You most excellent person.We need more like you.Lots more.

There is no such thing as a wealthy good man.

Good to see god is getting his money.Maybe chrisians could do the same.Maybe.
See our you happy you made me. Salvatore.I'm not even going to push you for an extra 1%.There only children after all.

Anonymous said...

I just want to put a plug in for the idea that we as christians ARE based on faith. I belive in christ Jesus and I belive that our faith is going to save us one day. I really don't belive because Im scared of death. Thats not the reason that Im a christian. Im a christian because I love God and I belive that he loves me because he died. I belive and have faith because he has taken care of me. I have been through many very hard times but every time I come out of that certain struggle, I have gained something from it. In James 1 it talks about how hardships help us to develope perseverance and therefor, make us whole in the end. God does not do the bad things that happen. We can not blame him, or atleast I don't think so. It was adam and eve that started sin and therefor hads to get out of eden. It was not Gods fault that all this stuff happens but God does promise that if you come out of the hardship with him, and with faith that you will be rewarded greatly.

One reason I accept christ as well is the fact that if Im a christian in life, and christianity is wrong, then nothing happens to me what-so-ever except that I was incorrect and that there isn't life after death. But if I don't follow and believe in christ, and he really is real, then what happens to me? I have a lifetime of pain ahead of me after I die.

.:webmaster:. said...

Please, please, please - let the poster above me be a spoof.

Sheesh...

Anonymous said...

For Mark, the seminary student:

Mark, I too am sorry for your losses. But ask yourself this: WHO of us isn’t going to die? Were you ever guaranteed to have great health and ever-lasting life on this earth? If so, please let me know the secret.

I AM a believer – even AFTER these awful things happened to me:

1. Being given away at birth by my natural father who had another woman besides my mother pregnant at the time (he opted to leave my mother and give me away like a piece of garbage, so he could marry the “other woman”).

2. Being a sexually abused baby.

3. Being forcefully removed from my loving foster home by my natural mother (a prostitute and alcoholic who ended up being married 8 times before her death at age 45) because she couldn’t leave Germany for the USA unless all the children she had given away were adopted. I couldn’t get adopted because my foster parents were on welfare.

4. Being sexually abused from age 10 to age 14 on nearly a nightly basis by one of her husbands.

5. My first husband, a drug-addict, killed someone over Heroin and so I ended up divorced by age 21.

6. I’ve been involved in several weird accidents, including a high-speed freeway automobile accident); and all in all I’ve had 20 operations for various things including a total hysterectomy which I suspect was a direct result of the childhood sexual abuse.

After all the things that happened to me, I never once blamed God. That’s because I know that MAN has free will and the choices to either do it HIS way, or Satan’s. Most people choose Satan….

You might have been a seminary student, but I guarantee you, you were NEVER saved – else, no matter what, you could NEVER have left Jesus. NEVER! You weren’t a “Christian” – you were just a pew-warmer!

As a “seminary student”, you would have known that man inherited sin from Adam and Eve and consequently “earthly” ill health and death, etc. Instead, because you’re “angry”, you’re willing to lose YOUR eternal life in heaven by proudly proclaiming there is no God? You’re willing to get comforted by a bunch of atheists or so-called “Ex-Christians” who, like you, were only “luke-warm” and have never had a clue about God?

Shame on you - Snap out of it, repent, and get yourself right with God again!

Passerby said...

Hey anonymous @ 12/23/2005 9:28 PM,
Yep, you have faith, and ONLY faith.

Dan Barker said it best, "Faith is the acceptance of the truth of a statement in spite of insufficient or contradictory evidence, which has never been consistent with reason. Faith, by its very invocation, is a transparent admission that religious claims cannot stand on their own two feet."


Oh, and when you die, you better hope Allah is not the one TRUE God. He doesn't like it when you pray to that false deity named jesus.



Below is an excerpt from Dan Barker's book.

Pascal's Wager:
"God can't be proved. But if God exists, the believer gains everything (heaven) and the unbeliever loses everything (hell). If God doesn't exist, the believer loses nothing and the unbeliever gains nothing. There is therefore everything to gain and nothing to lose by believing in God."

This argument, first formulated by French philosopher Blaise Pascal, is sheer intimidation. It is not a case for a god's existence: it is an argument for belief, based on irrational fear. With this kind of reasoning we should simply pick the religion with the worst hell.

It is not true that the believer loses nothing. We diminish this life by preferring the myth of an afterlife, and we sacrifice honesty to the maintenance of a lie. Religion demands time, energy and money, draining valuable human resources from the improvement of this world. Religious conformity, a tool of tyrants, is a threat to freedom.

Nor is it true that the unbeliever gains nothing. Rejecting religion can be a positive liberating experience, gaining perspective and freedom of inquiry. Freethinkers have always been in the forefront of social and moral progress.

What kind of person would eternally torment an honest doubter? If their god is so unjust, then theists are in as much danger as atheists. Perhaps god will get a perverted thrill from changing his mind and damning everyone, believers and unbelievers alike. Or, inverting the gamble, perhaps god will only save those who have enough courage not to believe!

Pascal was a Catholic and assumed that the existence of god meant the Christian God. However, the Islamic Allah might be the true god, which turns Pascal's wager into a riskier gamble than intended.

In any case, a belief in a deity based on fear is not a belief that produces admiration. It does not follow that such a being deserves to be worshipped."

http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=refute


Cheers, and happy winter solstice

Passerby said...

anonymous: "I have a lifetime of pain ahead of me after I die[if god is real and I don't believe]."


Yep, that's the reason you believe in the mythological story...you **fear** your "all-loving" god will torment you with pain for eternity for not kissing his ass.

Cheers

Passerby said...

anonymous @ 12/23/2005 9:44 PM: "Shame on you - Snap out of it, repent, and get yourself right with God again!"


Shame on you, anonymous. You better get yourself right with the "right" god---shame on for not believing in Dionysus, Osiris, Mithra, Horus, etc---all of these gods predated your copycat jesus deity. Your Jesus character is not even original...he is based on myths from prior religious beliefs.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa2.htm


I'm sorry about your past unfortunate circumstances in life, that is truly sad. Just remember, there is no evidence some god(s) has ever intervened in the history of this world.


Unless you can provide evidence of your imaginary big-sky-daddy, that's all s/he/it will be...just an imaginary character...and a horrilbe one too.


Get a clue and educate yourself.

Cheers

nonexChristian said...

FWIW, I am a Christian and I do not fear death, nor do I fear the deaths of those around me. My father has already died, as have all of my grandparents, as did my mother-in-law. I do not need God as a crutch. I was doing quite nicely without Him, as an agnostic adult.

In fact, my faith has made my life much more difficult. Jesus calls me to love others, when I really don't want to. Jesus tells me to forgive them when they wrong me, when I really just want to be pissed at them. Jesus calls me to give to the poor and needy, when I would really rather just keep the money and spend it on myself. But, I do the things He tells me to because I really do KNOW Him and I really do love him.

Keith Green put it very well, when he said:

"I can't explain to you really how He did it, but God proved Himself to me in such a holy way, such a complete way, that I would die for that faith and I would die for that belief, because it's more than a belief. He lives in my heart. He lives in my heart."

You want proof? Well, I can't give you proof in the scientific sense, just as you cannot disprove God in any objective way. Ultimately, both belief in God and belief in the absence of God rest upon faith. But, I could recount story after story of little miracles I have PERSONALLY observed. I won't bore you to tears, but I will recount one, as an example.

In college, I was at a conference one weekend. I had a group of people that I prayed with at night in the hotel. Well, we all got together to pray one night and I realized I had forgotten my bible in my room. So, I went to my room to get it. As I was walking back to where my friends were, I passed a girl I knew in the hallway. I said hello and kept going. After I passed her, I heard a voice in my head tell me to ask her to join us (no, I was not attracted to her, so that was not my motivation!). Anyway, I ignored the prompting. I heard it again, though, so I turned and yelled down the hall to her "Hey, we are praying tonight, why don't you come join us." She paused for a moment thinking about it, but finally relented and came. When we got together to pray (there were seven of us in all), another girl in our group was in tears because her cousin had just committed suicide earlier that day and she and her family were distraught. She talked for a long time about what that had done to her and her family. When she finished, the girl I had invited to join our group broke down in tears and opened a notebook she had with her. In it, she had written a suicide letter to her family. After she finished crying, she said that she was intending to commit suicide that night, but was so moved by what had happened with the other girl that she knew she couldn't do that. We prayed for her for a long time that night. I stayed in touch with the girl who was going to commmit suicide and she was genuinely healed that night from many emotional hurts that had built up in her. Coincidence? Maybe. But, I have many more stories very similar to that. Y'all can talk about doubting the existence of God all you want and how only a fool would believe, but I will NEVER doubt the existence of God. I have seen and experienced too much to doubt.

Is my life worse for my faith? Hardly. I have freedom in Christ and I love my life. But, I also will happily face death when the time comes so that I can put a face to the voice of Christ that I have come to know so well. So, whether I am deluded or not, I have no desire to give up my so-called crutch in exchange for the "faith of no-faith."

In the words of Peter, when Jesus asked him if he intended to stop following Him: "Lord, where would we go? Who else has the words of eternal life?"

Peace to all!

Anonymous said...

You can all SAY there's no God until the cows come home. You can ignore history, you can ignore the Bible, and you can ignore the end-times signs, but the fact remains, you CAN'T prove that there ISN'T a Creator....

Things are happening before your eyes that were predicted in the Bible, and you people are too dense to see it. Too bad, so sad!

This blog is brimming with a bunch of mean-spirited, opinionated people who don't have a clue about God or the Bible (especially the webmaster who couldn't make it past E-7 in the military, and played an instrument "for his country" - gosh, how impressive! A real "He-man".....And now he's drawing a pension paid for by tax-payers who had REAL jobs, all while he's sitting there on his laurels "dissing" His Creator by making childish and stupid comments about God and those who believe in God.)

Judgment Day is coming - whether YOU all believe it, or not....

Passerby said...

Anonymous,
So, are you a real He-man, or a real she-woman?

So, you believe in a fairy tale...very impressive, He-man! Do you believe in all the other god myths that predated your non-original jesus character?


Listen, little kiddie, you fear your god that's why you ended your statement with the stupid judgement day remark. Millions of people have been saying that for centuries.

You fear your god, like a little kid who fears the bogie monster under the bed. Now run along little kiddie and bury your head in the sand box.

Cheers

Passerby said...

nonexchristian,
so, your bible study group saved a girl from an apparent suicide attempt because your prayers worked. That's great you helped save this girl from an apparent suicide attempt, but it does not prove your god exists. It's purely a coincidence. Religious people like you have been associating events like this ever since people believed in a higher deity.


If you had believed in Allah, you would've believed that Allah is the one True God, but since you were "taught" Christianity, you believe in that particular deity. How many people like you associate this type of reasoning in Muslim countries? Probably a lot, right? Do you think Muslim's have experiences similar to you? Do you think that might be the reason they have such staunch belief in their deity?


I have a task for you. Get together with your prayer group and pray to your god. Ask him to help save those people who kill themselves every day. You would be saving 85-90 people every single day, in the U.S. alone. If your prayers are successful, then there shouldn't be a single death in the U.S. I hope your prayers will work, but I'm 100% certain your prayers will fail. Notice I said prayers and not social group. People help one another in social groups, whether they are religious or not. We are a social animal and we benefit from each other through these social interactions.



There are 3-5 million people in the U.S. who believe they have been abducted by space aliens. Can you disprove this claim? Can you see how outrageous claims requires outrageous proof? You have an outrageous claim by saying you believe in a god. I'm not making any outrageous claim by saying there is no god; I'm simply saying, provide the evidence. Until you provide the evidence I can't believe in your version of god.

Cheers

.:webmaster:. said...

"Ultimately, both belief in God and belief in the absence of God rest upon faith."

Ultimately, both belief in UFOs and belief in the absence of UFOs rest upon faith.

Ultimately, both belief in Zeus and belief in the absence of Zeus rest upon faith.

Ultimately, both belief in Allah and belief in the absence of Allah rest upon faith.

So, when I see a raggedy homeless man, smelling of whiskey and filth, standing on the corner and shouting that he is John the Baptist come back from the dead, I should keep in mind that both belief in this man and absence of belief in this man rest upon faith?

Rhetorical question for nonex...: Aren't there some basic rules of evidence in law, or do those just get thrown out the window when it comes to religion?

galvis said...

Get To Know
SPIRITISM, A NEW ERA FOR HUMANITY



GOD,
THE SUPREME INTELLIGENCE,
FIRST CAUSE OF ALL THINGS

JESUS,
OUR GUIDE AND MODEL

KARDEC,
THE FUNDAMENTAL BASE



- THE SPIRITS' BOOK

- THE MEDIUMS' BOOK

- THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SPIRITISM

- HEAVEN AND HELL

- THE GENESIS




"WITHOUT CHARITY THERE IS NO SALVATION"
Charity: benevolence for every one, indulgence for the
imperfections of others, forgiveness of injuries. (SB, 886)

International Spiritist Council




THE SPIRITIST DOCTRINE or SPIRITISM

What it is

It is the set of laws and principles, as revealed by the Superior Spirits, contained in the works of Allan Kardec, which constitute the Spiritist Codification: The Spirits' Book, The Mediums' Book, The Gospel According to Spiritism, Heaven and Hell, and The Genesis.
"Spiritism is a science which deals with the nature, origin and destiny of Spirits, as well as their relationship with the corporeal world."
Allan Kardec (Taken from Qu'est-ce que le Spiritisme? - Préambule)
Translated from the original French

"Spiritism realises what Jesus said of the promised Consoler, by bringing knowledge of those things which allow Man to know where he came from, where he is going and why he is on Earth; so attracting mankind towards the true principles of God's law and offering consolation through faith and hope."
Allan Kardec (Taken from The Gospel According to Spiritism - Chap. 6 - Item 4)
Translated from the original French

What it reveals

It reveals new and more profound concepts with respect to God, the Universe, the Human Being, the Spirits and the Laws which govern life itself.
Furthermore, it reveals what we are; where we have come from; where we are going; what is the objective of our existence; and what is the reason for pain and suffering.

What it comprises

By bringing new concepts about the Human Being and everything that surrounds it, Spiritism touches on all areas of knowledge, human activities and behaviour, thus opening a new era for the regeneration of Humanity.
Spiritism can and should be studied, analyzed, and practiced in all the fundamental aspects of life, such as: scientific, philosophical, religious, ethical, moral, educational, and social.

What it teaches

God is the Supreme Intelligence, first cause of all things. God is eternal, immutable, immaterial, unique, omnipotent, supremely just and good.
The Universe is God's creation. It encompasses all rational and non-rational beings, both animate and inanimate, material and immaterial.
In addition to the corporeal world inhabited by incarnate Spirits, which are human beings, there exists the spiritual world, inhabited by discarnate Spirits.
Within the Universe there are other inhabited worlds, with beings at different degrees of evolution: some equal, others more or less evolved than earthly Man.
All the Laws of Nature are Divine Laws because God is their author. They cover both the physical and moral laws.
A Human Being is a Spirit incarnated in a material body. The perispirit is the semi-material body which unites the Spirit to the physical body.
Spirits are the intelligent beings of creation. They constitute the world of the Spirits, which pre-exists and outlives everything.
Spirits are created simple and ignorant. They evolve intellectually and morally, passing from a lower order to a higher one, until they attain perfection, where they will enjoy unalterable bliss.
Spirits preserve their individuality before, during, and after each incarnation.
Spirits reincarnate as many times as is necessary for their spiritual advancement.
Spirits are always progressing. In their multiple physical existences, they may sometimes become stationary but they never regress. The speed of their intellectual and moral progress depends on the efforts they make to attain perfection.
Spirits belong to different orders according to the degree of perfection they have attained: Pure Spirits, who have attained maximum perfection; Good Spirits, whose predominant desire is towards goodness; and Imperfect Spirits, characterized by their ignorance, their tendency towards evil, and by their inferior passions.
The Spirits' relations with Human Beings are constant and have always existed. The Good Spirits attract us towards goodness, sustain us in life's trials, and help us bear them with courage and resignation. The Imperfect Spirits induce us towards error.
Jesus is the Guide and Model for all Humankind. The Doctrine He taught and exemplified is the purest expression of God's Law.
The morality of Christ, as contained in the Gospels, is the guidence for the secure progress of all Human Beings. Its practice is the solution for all human problems and the objective to be attained by Humankind.
Human Beings are given free-will to act, but they must answer for the consequences of their actions.
Future life reserves for Human Beings penalties and pleasures according to the respect they do or do not show for God's laws.
Prayer is an act of adoration for God. It is found in the natural law and is the result of an innate sentiment in every Human Being, just as the idea of the existence of the Creator is innate.
Prayer makes Human Beings better. Whoever prays with fervour and confidence grows stronger against evil temptations, and God sends the Good Spirits to assist them. This assistance will never be denied when requested with sincerity.
--- o ---

SPIRITIST PRACTICE

All Spiritist practice is gratuitous, following the orientation of the moral principle found in the Gospel: "Give for free what you receive for free."
Spiritism is practiced with simplicity, without any external forms of worship, within the Christian principle that God should be worshipped in spirit and in truth.
Spiritism has no clergy, nor does it adopt or use at any of its meetings or during its practices the following: altars, images, candles, processions, sacraments, concession of indulgences, religious vestiments, alcoholic or hallucinogenic beverages, incense, tobacco, talismans, amulets, horoscopes, cartomancy, pyramids, crystals, or any other objects, rituals or external forms of worship.
Spiritism does not impose its principles. It invites those interested in knowing it to submit its teachings to the test of reason before accepting them.
Mediumship, which allows the Spirits to communicate with Human Beings, is a faculty which many individuals bring with them at birth, independent of whatever religion or beliefs they may come to adopt.
Spiritist mediumship practice is solely that which is exercised based on the principles of the Spiritist Doctrine and within the Christian moral concepts.
Spiritism respects all religions and doctrines; values all efforts towards the practice of goodness; works towards peace and fellowship between all nations and all peoples, regardless of race, colour, nationality, creed, cultural or social standing. It also recognizes that "the truly good person is one who complies with the laws of justice, love, and charity in their highest degree of purity." (The Gospel According to Spiritism – chapter 17 – item 3)
--- o ---

"To be born, to die, to be reborn yet again, and
constantly progress, that is the Law."

--- o ---

"Unshakable faith is only that which can meet reason
face to face in every Human epoch."

--- o ---

The study of the works of Allan Kardec is fundamental
for the correct knowledge of the Spiritist Doctrine

--- o ---

CAMPAIGN FOR THE DISSEMINATION OF SPIRITISM



International Spiritist Council -

Home page: http://www.spiritist.org/

E-mail: spiritist@spiritist.org

Tel: 55.61.322-3024 - Fax:55.61.321-8760

SGAN - Q. 603 - Cj. F - Brasília - DF - Brasil - Cep: 70830-030

Anonymous said...

Quoting Galvis:
Get To Know
SPIRITISM, A NEW ERA FOR HUMANITY
(deleted a bunch of worthless stuff)
E-mail: spiritist@spiritist.org
Tel: 55.61.322-3024 - Fax:55.61.321-8760


Way cool! Email, voice phone and FAX numbers to spread over the internet for fun and games.

I didn't read all the religious cult information in your post sorry.

Onanite

Anonymous said...

PASSERBY RESPONDED: Anonymous, So, are you a real He-man, or a real she-woman?

MY RESPONSE: None of your business. All you need to know, you smart-alecky rubber-neck, is that I’m someone who served my country for 22 years, performing a REAL job instead of “playing an instrument” such as our illustrious webmaster who faked his way through the military having fun, while others were laying their lives on the line. I’m someone who, once I became a believer (unlike the illustrious webmaster of this disgusting site) I REMAINED a believer, and am not wasting my life and giving in to Satan’s wishes by stabbing my Creator in the back. Judgment Day IS coming, yes, even for Dave - I would venture to say ESPECIALLY for people like Dave who claim to have knowledge of God and the Bible, and then dare to provide a website like this which helps to lead the throngs even further astray. I’ve read the things Dave has posted, and it is painfully obvious that he NEVER was a believer in Christ; he was nothing but a pew-warmer, going through the motions.

PASSERBY RESPONDED: So, you believe in a fairy tale...very impressive, He-man! Do you believe in all the other god myths that predated your non-original jesus character?

MY RESPONSE: So, YOU believe in nothing but yourself. Very impressive. You better hope you don’t get run over by a car or suffer a heart attack anytime soon, because you will end up talking out of the other side of your big mouth on the day your stand before your Creator!

PASSERBY RESPONDED: Listen, little kiddie, you fear your god that's why you ended your statement with the stupid judgement day remark. Millions of people have been saying that for centuries.

MY RESPONSE: If anybody’s the “little kiddie” around here, it’s you! Everything you’ve posted in this entire thread alludes to that fact, because you are nothing but a loud-mouthed jerk spouting off about things you know NOTHING about.

“Millions of people” have been saying that Judgment Day is coming because it’s TRUE! Look at the Middle East happenings; look at the natural disasters that have been of Biblical proportions! Us “Bible thumpers” have been trying to show you atheists the Truth since practically forever, and you just keep on rejecting it with the free will GOD gave you. Yes, there certainly are kooks among believers – and those are the ones you guys have decided are the spokesmen for the rest of us. Truth is, MOST church-goers haven’t got a clue, themselves, but like YOU, they feel the need to spout off about things they know nothing about. The result is, it’s a no-win situation for BOTH sides!

Methinks you have “the end of the world” messages confused with “Judgment Day”. The Bible prophecies all have to play out BEFORE “the end” because God has a certain order (which you can only know IF you’ve read the Bible in context). We ARE in the last quarter of the eleventh hour. But, people such as yourself are blinded to the Truth, and therefore, are unwittingly catering to Satan by writhing and slithering anonymously through the Internet - fat, dumb, and happy - trying your best to lead the world astray with your asinine opinions and nonexistent “knowledge” of the Bible. You’re no better than the “religious throngs” who pretend to be pious, and are used by Satan to make God look like a ridiculous myth.

PASSERBY RESPONDED: You fear your god, like a little kid who fears the bogie monster under the bed. Now run along little kiddie and bury your head in the sand box.

MY RESPONSE: You bet! And if you had half a brain, you would, too! There’s nothing “little kiddish” about that. I suggest you lay aside your childish raw hatred of yourself and the world and, unlike the illustrious hate-mongering webmaster, DO something with your life instead of hanging out in chatrooms like this to shout nonsensical junk to a world that’s headed for hell in a hand-basket. I promise you, God is going to demand an explanation for YOUR part in this! And you won’t like His answer!

You’re the one with his head in the sandbox.

As the the "Spiritists" - you people might as well be Satanists....

beanheel said...

hey anony--do your research. this is actually a relatively calm period for natural disasters compared to the scope of what this planet's been through over the past few billion years. the only thing that might be happening with greater frequency is hurricanes, which environmentalists started predicting over thirty years ago as a natural product of global warming--which is the product of the enormous amounts of fossil fuel emissions we create, i.e. human agency.

freedy said...

To "nonexchristian". Didn't you read recently that they did an extensive study on prayer in multiple hospitals across America?It concluded that those who were prayed for had no better recovery or cure rate than those who recieived non prayer. This was a huge study done finished in july of 2005.some people recover and some don't and god has nothing to do with it,....this is why so many people are angry at "god"...god heals this kid and the parents brag about it. Then those who have kids die feel "god" does'nt care bout them,..this a cruel And sadistic doctrine the church fosters and is VERY MEAN SPIRITED!,..........FREEDY

Passerby said...

anonymous,
So, you believe in Satan too...very impressive, He-Man! Did you know your God created him...that is, if you believe your god created everything? If your god created Satan, then he is a very sick bastard. Of course Isaiah 45:7 states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things." Nice God you worship here!!!



I'm sorry you believe in such childish fantasies. Do you also believe that animals can talk and a bush spoke human language? You actually believe a human lived in a whale for three days? Can't you see these are just stories in a book...it is mythology. These are childish stories.


You didn't answer my question, why don't you believe in all the god myths that predated your non-original Jesus character? Christianity is just another religion that evolved from primeval religous beliefs.


Have you ever thought about why *you* believe what you believe. Religious beliefs are mainly determined by space and time. If you were born in the U.S. before many Christians slaughtered most of the indigenous indians, who were the True fathers of this land, then you would be praising Father sky and Mother earth. If you were born in the middle east, then you would most likely be a Muslim. So, why did you happen to believe in this particular fairy tale?


Oh, and btw. Why do you cut down somebody's occupation? Oh, I know, you picked up your bad behavior from your imaginary friend who lives ONLY in a book and in YOUR mind. There are 3-5 million(yes million!) people in the U.S. alone who believe they were abducted by space aliens. These people are certain space aliens are real...it seems like many people can't distinguish between what is REAL and what is fantasy.



anonymous said: "So, YOU believe in nothing but yourself. Very impressive. You better hope you don’t get run over by a car or suffer a heart attack anytime soon, because you will end up talking out of the other side of your big mouth on the day your stand before your Creator!"


Yes, I believe in myself now. You should be impressed. I don't have this codependance on an imaginary being any more. I'm not like a child anymore who needs a security blanket. You need the Jesus security blanket like a drug addict needs his fix.

One meaning of codependence; noun:
Of or relating to a relationship in which one person is psychologically dependent in an unhealthy way on someone who is addicted to a drug or self-destructive behavior, such as chronic gambling.


What if Allah is the one True God. I hope you don't die, because Allah doesn't like it when people pray to Jesus. What if the Raelian's are right. They believe UFO's brought intellignet life to earth. Did you know All religions have their own version of a creation story, and of course, Christianity, being the copycat religion that it is, adopted much of these primeval myths.


Anonymous said: "“Millions of people” have been saying that Judgment Day is coming because it’s TRUE!"

Like I said, I'm sorry you believe in mythology. You believe in judgement day because you READ IT in a book...that's all. There will always be calamity in this world. We live in a dynamic and changing world, where earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornado are natually occurring phenomenoms. Or do you believe your dumbass god is responsible for creating all these things too?



I don't think you have the capability do do honest research, especially since you recognize the fact that you are a scared child right now. Hopefully, you will read about world religions someday and how Christianity is based on these primeval myths.


Have a great Winter Solstice...one of the original meanings of Dec 25th---that Christianity stole!

Cheers

.:webmaster:. said...

Someone tell me this "Anonymous" is just a spoofer or a troll. If by chance the poster is sincere, then I'd have to say he has a real anger problem.

Wowee.

In case you are sincere, "Anonymous," I confess, I did make my living as a musician for about 20 years and now I'm making my living using my abilities in writing, photography and PR.

I also confess that both of these unrelated occupations have been fun - great fun.

Now, what does any of this have to do with exercising my 1st Amendment right of expression? That's all this website is you know, the use of 1st Amendment freedoms, the kind of freedoms you and I both served (in our own ways) to defend.

Do you campaign in this same nasty manner against porn sites, or sites that condemn your chosen political positions, or against non-Christian religious sites? I hope not - let freedom ring - the book burning days of Christianity are over, right?

What about the library? Do you get this mad when you go to a bookstore? There are numerous books in both libraries and bookstores saying the same things as are being expressed on this "disgusting" little site.

Chill out dude, you'll give yourself an aneurysm.

It Is I said...

I am truly sorry about your losses. I am also saddened by your ignorance of God and His instruction book called the Bible that He has preserved down through the ages for those of us who are willing to take advantage of it.

If you are a seminary graduate and was a lay leader for fifteen years, then I question the competency of the school you attended and the churches also It was eiher that or your inability to comprehend what was being taught and put it into effect in your life. I wonder how committed you were to God and His Word when "the brown stuff hit the twirly thing", sometimes called trials and tribulations.

If you were/are truly a son of God (I hesitate to use the term "Christian", because a lot of wrong has been done in the name of Christianity) you would not have sought solace on this site among people that are more ignorant than you. (Read these verses about being a son of God, not The Son of God but a son of God. Take time to read a few verses before and after them to get things in context. Romans 8:14,19: Galatians 3:26; 4:5-7: Ephesians 5:1-12: Hebrews 12:1-17: and Revelations 21:1-8).

Kevin Smith, John W. Loftus, 4 Anonymouses, Salvatore, Forever and ever, south2003, Dana, Jim Lee, Just Rick, Shannon, Jose, passerby, galvis, Onanita, beanheel,especially webmaster are some of the people that commented on your article. I can tell by their comments that they haven't a clue about life and/or death as God explains it in the Bible. I also read some of their comments on other articles and it only confirmed my conclusion aboout them. I can tell by their comments that they have never really read the Bible let alone study it. By the way, my use of the word "ignorant" is not meant to be derogatory but only as a lack of knowledge and understanding.

They read Einstein and other agnostics and atheists and scholars who themselves misundersstand the Word Of God.

These so-called learned people make comments that are based on what they think the Bible says. They take one verse or passage of scripture and expound on it like the understand it. They don't. They do not search out the truth for the sake of the truth, they search out the Word of God for the sake of their own egos to be able to bring some "new and better learning" to the Word of God. In so doing they lead you and others astray.

It amazes me how some of you if not all of you claim to be ex-Christians and your comments show such a lack of knowledge and understanding. You all need to really read and really study the Bible for yourselves. Let the Bible explain itself. Let the so-called experts and scholars alone until you get your own understanding and then read what they have to say and compare it to what you then know from your own Bible sudy. Those that called themselves Christians this goes for you also, because your comments were off target also.

And Mark to answer your original question "Where was God when you needed Him most?", He was right there. Your problem was that you did not know how to take advantasge of what God had to offer or you did not want what God had to offer. I"m not going to elaborate on that right now, you just thinlk about it.

It Is I

Forever and ever said...

Itiseye

Please advise what translation we should read from.

Is your jesus the saviour of the world.
or
Will your jesus save us.?
or
Will your jesus torment us forever and ever.
or
Will your jesus torment us for this age and the age to come.
or
Will your jesus just destroy us.

Please advise

Forever and ever said...

Itiseye
Revelations 21:1-8
Jesus is not God as he has a beginning and an end.

Ephesians 5:1-12
Be imitators of god. Ok
Who do we have to kill and how many virgins do we get to keep

Fairdink'm itiseye.Every christian that comes here says the same thing.
You do not know the scriptures.I do You don;t so there.
I;d say that your a JW for sure.

ID yourself so you can become yet another sacrific for us another lamb for the slaughter.

I do not have faith in jesus.So how can I be YOUR gods son.?

So that you know you are wasting your time and mine. Read
Hebrews 6:4+ For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6:6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

Did we confess that Jesus Christ is Lord did we bend the knee Did we
believe that he was raise from the dead Did we confess that Jesus is THE Lord.YES WE DID>!!!!!!!!

Tell Lucifer I mean jesus He blew it big time.No longer will we believe a lie.No longer will we fear him.Send your imaginary friend to do battle here.All of his previous puppets have failed.Now we add you to the list.

What personality type would require to be worshiped. Needing to be continually told how great he is.How good he is.How much we love him.
Check this out and it will put you on the road to find out.

Are you sure your saved.????

It's the Thought That Counts

By: Hara Estroff Marano
Summary: An expert answers key question about the dangers of overthinking.

Find a therapist
near you. itiseye
Enter your City or Zip:

Overthinking can wreck our emotional health, says Susan Nolen-Hoeksema, Ph.D., on the basis of her studies over the past decade. A professor of psychology at the University of Michigan, she provides answers to some common questions:

Do men ruminate too?

Women do it more than men, but that doesn't mean that men don't do it at all. And it takes on a different character. Our research suggests that men are more likely to ruminate about anger and angry situations, and it comes out as angry, grudge-bearing self-righteousness.

Women tend to focus much more on depressive and anxious themes: "What's wrong with me that this person doesn't like me? What did I do wrong?" And they focus on whether they can control something in the future, particularly with regard to relationships. "How can I keep my husband interested in me? How can I make sure that everybody likes me?"

How do you explain those differences?

We know that from a very early age girls are much more relationship-oriented than boys are. It's socialized into us; it may even be programmed into us evolutionarily. Relationships are great fuel for rumination because interactions with others are always ambiguous; you never know exactly what the other person means or whether they're being sincere. Investing too much of your self-worth in the approval of others provides an unstable source of self-esteem. That's one major contributor to women's tendency to ruminate more.

How does one develop into a ruminator? Do we learn it?

It can be socialized into people or we can be inclined to it by biological temperament. If you are encouraged to pay attention to your emotions and also given the message that there's not much you can do about them, that contributes to being a ruminator. Boys are encouraged to do something about the situations that make them upset, girls are encouraged more to just think about the situations that make them upset. If biological temperament inclines you to be easily upset, that quite naturally leads to questions about "what's wrong with me?" If on top of that you are not socialized to handle distressed feelings actively, then the two can strongly contribute to rumination.

How does that get set into the brain?

Research suggests that there are connections between nodes of the brain. Different memories and thoughts are connected by virtue of sharing an emotion, so that negative thoughts are connected with each other even when they have little to do with each other. Your boss yells at you-and you think about how fat you are. What connects them is unhappiness.

When you ruminate, you rehearse the connections between such thoughts and strengthen them, creating a spreading network whereby a whole complex of distressing thoughts becomes more easily aroused by just a little bit of negative mood. So the next time you're upset not only do you think about your boss yelling at you and being fat but about how your mother treated your brother better than she treated you.

What effect does rumination have on relationships?

It undermines them in a couple of ways. Ruminators seek out other people for reassurance but they confront others constantly: "You don't love me, you don't care about me, what did you mean when you said that the other night?" Men particularly find this hard to deal with. It may lead to arguments or to the partner stalking off.

The other thing it can do is make a person excessively dependent and anxious about everything a partner or friend says or does, which again can drive them away. Our research shows that ruminators seek out social support from other people more than non-ruminators, but they actually get lower-quality social support because people get frustrated.

There's such as thing as excessive reassurance seeking: "Do you love me? Do you really love me? I don't know if you love me, do you really love me?" Eventually their partners get frustrated; they may try to hide it and be reassuring, but the ruminator notices the frustration and confronts them: "You say you love me, but you seem so irritable all the time and you're getting more irritable. What's the matter? What's the matter with our relationship?" Eventually, there's often a huge blowup.

Is rumination more toxic for women because of its effect on relationships?

Rumination is toxic in both men and women; it leads to depression and anxiety in both. It's just that women are more prone to do it.

What has most surprised you in the research you've done on rumination?

We keep looking for what's good about rumination. Over and over we find that it is immobilizing and impairs the quality of thinking.

Have we become too self-analytical?

Our data indicate that older adults are less prone to rumination than younger ones, suggesting that a cultural shift toward awareness of emotions may contribute. There's been a huge shift in the last couple of decades from being very stoic and unaware of our feelings to being obsessed with them. The main theme of a huge amount of pop culture has been about getting in touch with your feelings and analyzing your past. That's good to some extent, but a lot of us have taken it too far and we've become a bellybutton culture, hyperfocused on every twist and turn of our emotions, trying to analyze everything everybody says for its deeper meaning.

One thing that keeps people in the cycle of rumination is a sense that they're incredibly profound and gaining tremendous insight. We actually find that by every measure, they're doing a lousy job of problem solving. People need to recognize that it's not a healthy process.

When does thinking get dangerous?

Self-analysis is a good thing-to a point. Just as the cell-splitting processes that contribute to cancer are not inherently bad-it's dangerous when it gets out of control and becomes self-perpetuating-so with thinking about yourself and your emotions. Some of it is crucial to our understanding of who we are and how to behave. But when it takes up all the space in your brain, it's malignant. We need to spot when self-analysis turns into rumination and gain skills for controlling it.

It's in the danger zone when you start feeling increasingly hopeless and immobilized, when you're getting feedback from others that you seem stuck and unable to deal with a situation and certainly when you are feeling chronically depressed and anxious. By then, however, you may need professional help itisieye

Forever and ever said...

Jesus and Peter
Do you love me Do you really love me Are you sure you love me.
Then feed my sheep

The Christian.
Does god love me How can I be sure that god loves me
I don;t fell love all the time
But I know he loves me.He told me he loves me.So he must.I think.
But why did he let my baby die.
Get the picture
True love never fails never ever.

Why is it that YOUR god has a human personality.He hates he repents he gets jealous.he orders the killing of those who oppose him.

itiseye I am not very well educated
But I am not as stupid as you seem to be.

You come hear professing to be wise and holding the truth.Do you remember this.
Professing to be wise they become fools.
You are puffed up not built up.
Remember Love does not fail.It does not seek itself.

jesus is a Bunyip

freeman said...

Merry winter solstice to all my friends who have a brain without seeing the wizard of oz!

Dave8 said...

And, Merry Winter Solstice to all of my friends, who also have a brain, take care...

S. L. said...

First off... a most joyous and merry CHRISTMAS to all you jolly souls at exchristian.net. All the best this holiday season and on into the New Year.

Now as to the poster up top who was fretting about the whereabouts of God in the midst of earthly trevail... C'mon, bud, lighten up and laugh. It's only life. Cheer up, it gets worse.

And before y'all get bent out a shape, I'll have you know my wife died when she was only 28, in mid sentence, her last words being, 'Don't forget Wednesday...' (kerplunk -- and down she went).

Don't tell me that wouldn't put you through an emotional ringer. Oh yeah, if you're tempted to dole out a sensitivity training lecture -- Don't.

Dano said...

It Is I ,
I am so glad that you came along and explained how all of those people who wrote and led the way out of the "dark ages" were wrong, ill informed and stupid. I am so happy that you with your superior ability to interpret the Bible, and know the will of God, finally came along and stumbled upon this website.

Now you can begin to show us how to understand all of the stuff in the bible that no one else has been able to. I am waiting with bated breath for the next installment of, IT IS I.

When you pray, please tell God that you are on the job and soon will have many more of his creations worshiping him like crazy.

I personally would like to see you on television speaking to the several billion people who file into the millions of churches and mosques, and temples every day, and tell them that they are just going through the motions, and tell them what the bible really means, and the real way to get to heaven.

Dave8 said...

S. I.: "Oh yeah, if you're tempted to dole out a sensitivity training lecture -- Don't."

Just another lost religious person, who started their life in a sinful depraved nature, basically born into earthly hell, with nothing to look forward to in life, and hoping that after leaving this depraved life on earth, they may find an ethereal greener pasture...

Well, S. I., your wife is in Islam hell, burning and suffering, can't you hear her screams of pain, and anguish... Such a sad life is yours... I'd say happy holidays, but... but this one is probably more depressing than your last anyway, bask in the misery you've decided to adopt in your life... its a free country...

I hope you don't talk to children who need happiness in their lives, all you have to give is depression and misery, go lock yourself in your house, and stay out of public... do humanity a favor...

GoneNsane said...

It Is I,
Nice to know you have all the answers to the universe. Does that mean you are God?

To the poster who dissed musicians...your God likes music.

For all of these Christian posters and lurkers who want us to "get right" with God--worry about yourselves and leave the rest of us alone. Once you've achieved perfection then you can come back and lecture everybody else.

FREEDY said...

To seminary graduate/original poster,..I too pandered for 20 years to various demands of pastors/evangelists, only to be taken advantage of. The only comfort I take is in the fact that thru these needy, & messed up "LEADERS IN THE CHURCH" I realized that christianity is a joke and now I'm free from the control of a recycled pagan diety.Of course the church says this is the trial of our faith,.BULLCRAP!,...THEY HAVE AN ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING,..CHRISTIANS ARE NOTHING BUT BUNCH OF MIXED UP NARCISSISTS! ,.at least most of them.....thanks for your honesty & contribution to this site,..freedy

freedy said...

(it is i said)...you are the reason people are, & will continue to leave the church in groves. You ASS....UME,.that those who no longer believe are biblically illiteret,...WRONG!!!I've studied the bible thru many times,..looking up the sciptures in both hebrew and greek.The scriptures are a masterpiece of literary manipulation,...but thru the eye of increasing knowledge,...no longer hold up.It is you who are "ignorant"(no disrespect),...to the emerging masses of dissolusioned ex-christians who will not allow the
you to intimidate those who are waking out of the nightmare of christianity!!! p.s. this is a anti-christianity site, not a anti-pornography site,...wake up and smell the coffee man! freedy

beanheel said...

itisi--you included me in a list of people whose posts prove i don't know anything about the bible. the only post i've made was in response to an anonymous poster who asserted that the armageddon promised in john's revelation is near at hand as evidenced by increased activity of natural disasters. my post merely pointed at the factual absurdity of that claim. how could possibly glean from that post that i am ignorant of the bible? indeed, how could you possibly have gathered from that post that i am not, in fact, a christian? what sorcery have given yourself to that has granted you such astonishing clairvoyance? please reply as i am desperate to learn the magic you know. you obviously have much to teach me.

actually, you embarass yourself. you embarass christians everywhere.

beanheel

Salvatore said...

Dear "IT IS I"--

You wrote, "I can tell by their comments that they have never really read the Bible let alone study it."

Friend, I must have you know that I read the Bible cover-to-cover on a yearly basis, each year rotating between the NASB, NIV, NKJV, and yes even the "Authorized Version." I even used my own Bible-reading schedule that I had self-published and is still used today by thousands of people.

I never cease to be amazed at the arrogance of your type.

People on this website (including me) have read your self-contradictory text for many, many years. We prayed. We tithed. We fasted. We fought against sexual desires. We did this. We did that. And yes, we read our Bibles. We lived by "faith alone" (if you're a Protestant and that matters), we had "faith and works" (if you're a Catholic and that matters), we lived by the Word of Wisdom (if you're a Mormon and that matters), and we were Pioneers (if you are a Jehovah's Witness and that matters).

We, the friends and members of this site, have collectively tried every combinatorial variation of Christianity and in each instance, Christianity has failed.

Your ignorance is matched only by your arrogance.

We've read your holy book. Some of us many times through cover-to-cover. So, you can stop with your ignorant comments like we "have never really read the Bible let alone study it."

Salvatore said...

Dear Exchristian Friends,

Is it just me, or does it burn your butts to no end when some drone declares, "Oh, but you were never a 'true' Christian!"

I spent some 30+ years devoted to the search of Christ and "The Truth" of the Bible!

Maybe my deconversion is still too fresh (circa 3 years ago), and those sort of comments don't bother the more seasoned in their deconversion, but I'll have you know, it really makes me angry! Damn angry!

GoneNsane said...

I hear you, Salvatore. I guess I wasn't a true Christian the whole time I was in lay ministry school, attending seminary lectures, writing and leading the prayers in church, or taking over the service when my pastor was gone. But I guess if you can't entertain new ideas without your faith crumbling, those kind of "not a True Christian" attacks aren't unexpected. How very, very sad for them.

It Is I said...

I personallly use the NKJV, AKJV, NIV, ASV, and others as I feel the need. You need to study the history of he different versions and then make your own decision.

Jesus is the savior of the world regardless of what you or anyone thinks. He has already done what it takes to save the world. It is up to you to accept it or not. It's your decision.

Regarding your remarks about Rev.21:1-8. This is the kind of remarks and others like it that let me know that you and others like you have limited knowledge. Any first year lay student of Bible knows what this means. He is not talking about His beginning and His end. He is talking about Him being the beginning of mankind and the end. He is everything, all things, and the only thing that mankind needs. Don't take my word for it, Read your Bible, study it, it's in there.

As for "Jesus is not God: Have you not read Jn. 3:16, Titus 2:13, or 2 Pet.1:1? Or have read what the scholars say about the Trinity? If You decide to do any studying on it, you will find that these "learned men" don't always agree. Then you comopare what they say to what the Bible says and you will find that the word 'trinity" is not in the Bible. That in and of itself is not a good reason to disbelieve it, but it should cause you to study it somemore. Is the Trinity concept present in the Bible, are there any verses or passages in the Bible to support it, or are there just vague allusions nothing concrete?

If after you study you find you can agree with it, then great. If you don't still great. It is your life and you are going to be judged according to what you say and do not by what you feel someone else did or didn't do to you that made you do or not do what you did.

You say Christians are closed minded and can't think for themselves. It appears to me from what I have read that it is you and others like you that are closed minded and can't think for themselves.

You let adverse circumstances (trials & tribulations)in your life determine your attitude and the way you think. Instead of taking those situations and studying them to see what's right or wrong about them, you( all of those of you that I have read), exhibit an emotional response and allow your hurts and egos to blind you as to what is the next logical step and it's not to turn and run or rant and rave about what someone has done or not done to you or for you.

Evaluate thesituation. How much of it lwas your fault?Did you just take someone's word for it or did you take an active part in it and sstrudy th see if those thlings were so? Did you REALLY study the Bible or did you just readit sometimes? Did you plut all that you had learned into daily p[ractice? Did you practice those things lmentioned inMatt.5:11-48, did you exhibit the fruit of the Spirit(Gal.5:22-23), did you do as the Bible said in 2 Pet.1:5-9. Could there be any posibility that you hsad some cupability in your beling mislead, ill-informed, and/or being taken advantageof? Don't be clossed mlinded be open lminded. Be truthful to yourself.

Ask yourself another question. The ones that you feel betrayed you, were they sincere? They may have been wrong in your opinion, but did they truly have your best interest in their heart as they understood it? Did they truly believe that they were doing good for you?

Your remark regarding Eph.5:1-12 tells me that you have no idea of that passage means. And your next statement about "killing & virgins" and your rantings and raving about Heb.6:4+ reveal that you are a very hurt,disturbed, confused indivdual. Something bad has happened to you in your life and you want to blame God. God had never done wrong to anyone at any time.You need to forgive whoever it is and get on with your life.

As for your lack of faith in Jesus Christ, I don't know your story. If you say you don't, then I can safely assume that you don't. The son part was actually for Mark. It was based on what he had said about himself, so I think he would underdstand. I can see you can't and don't

Forever, if you will read the article about "overthinking" again, you'll find that you probably need it more than me, but I thank you anyway for being concerned about my mental and emotional health.

I am sorry you do not feel loved, but yourfeelins aaaand emotions can/will lie to you every day. God's love is not determined by whether or not He let's your babyi die, heals or doesn't heal someone you love, bless you with the right Job or mate. God's love is manifest in the fact that He allowed His only begotten Son to die to pay the penalty for you and me and everyone else so that we can live forever together in peace. So that you and your baby can live forever tosgether inn pleace(Rev.21:1-8). You don't have to believel ilt. God doesn't force and neither lshould well-lmeaning chlurches and thleir leaders. It's strictlyi for you to decide.

FYI I only have a H. S.education. I do not profess to be wise, do not have all the answers, do not even know ll the questions, nor do I lay claim to a superior ability to interpret the Bible, or know the will of God except for that revealed in the Bible, Dano. But I do like to study the word of God.

Your comments all seem to be full of hate, hurts, bitterness, and confusion.

I stumbled onto this site by accident and Mark's headline caught my eye. I read his story and I read the comments. I just felt like putting my two cents in like everyone else.

It Is I

boomSLANG said...

Speaking of what "any first year year lay student of the Bible" knows....Any first year GRAMMER SCHOOL student knows that snakes don't talk, nor do shrubberies, nor donkeys. If you'd grow up the first time, Mr. "It"...there would be no need to be born again, nor believe such crappola. And don't worry, we won't take your word for things, because being EX-christians, we know that you can only regurgitate what you've been programmed to believe. Furthermore, it's not that we're full of "hate, bitterness, confusion"...or uh, "hurts"...but more like that most of us are concerned that people like you---people who believe such fanciful bullshit---still roam the earth.

god less.

FREEDY said...

DEAR IT SO I SAID,...YOU ARE A PUFFED UP DRONE OF THE BIBLE MYTHS.YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU ARE AS I WAS,... STILL IN THE PRESCHOOL OF SPIRITUALLY.ARROGANCE
AND IGNORANCE ARE NOT TOO FAR FROM ONE ANOTHER.PLEASE EXAMINE YOURSELF
AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE, FOR YOU ARE MAKING YOURSELF TO BE A FOOL!THE PEOPLE ON THIS SITE ARE EXTEREMELY
INTELLAGENT AND HAVE HUMILIATED
YOUR INFANTILE BELIEF SYSTEM.
WAKE UP DUDE ! FREEDY

Anonymous said...

It is I wrote:Jesus is the savior of the world regardless of what you or anyone thinks.

This is your defining statement. This is where you prove your ignorance and inability to think for yourself.

I will conceive the remote possibility that god may exist and give you the chance to prove that which you posit. I only ask that you do the same for me.

Will you consider that the christian god does not exist?

Possibility is the only path to the truth. If you can't even consider possibility, then you will always be ignorant of the truth.

Please read 1 corinthians 6:14 - 17.

Take your ignorance and go away. We have all been in your shoes. We read the bible. We comprehended. We found the truth.

Anonymous said...

Typo...... thats 2 corinthians 6:14 - 17

Dano said...

I have a hunch that it is about time for "It Is I" to stick his fingers in his ears and run away screaming "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" "All of you ex Christians want to do is hurt my feelings" Of course what he really means is: You say things that I know are true and don't have any real answer for, so I am going to take my marbles and go home!

Forever and ever said...

Boomslang
You should know better than to talk
about shrubberies.You'll get Dave the webe all excited.His still waiting for his.

Itiseye.Bring to us 10 christians that agree with you and a burning shrubbery.Then and only then will we continue with our bible studies.

Itiseye what part of Hebrews 6:4+
do you not understand.

A bush in the hand is worth 2 birds in the wind.?

Then I shall pick up 2 half coconut shells and ride of.s ss s ss So that I may continue on my s ss ss search for the holy grail.

SL said...

Dave8... how many stabs at writing the great American novel have you made? If your posts don't have the stench of a rejected writer about them I don't what does. Yours is the prose only Oprah could love.

Dave8 said...

S.L.: "Dave8... how many stabs at writing the great American novel have you made? If your posts don't have the stench of a rejected writer about them I don't what does. Yours is the prose only Oprah could love."

S.L., it appears you "think" I base my identity and self-value on "writing"... oops, you're wrong, I'm not that shallow... but, psychologically speaking, you are projecting, or you are intellectually immature based on the comment, how sad...

On a more stimulating note, do you feel guilty when you masturbate on Wednesdays? What do you think about?

Salvatore said...

Dear "It is I" --

For only having a highschool education, I'd say you seem like a fundamentally intelligent person. You're a little caustic in presentation, but hell, who isn't?

Perhaps you could attend a freshman course in philosophy at your local university. Don't start off with that "Jesus is the savior of the world regardless of what you or anyone thinks" stuff. Just try to listen, learn, and grow. And truly examine what is being said. If you remain a Christian, wonderful. If not, wonderful.

My concern for you is that you do not exhibit independent thinking. How do I know? Because I used to be just like you.

If you want to convert us to Christ (or even "back to Christ"), you must appeal to our sensibilities and reason -- NOT by quoting verses and accusing us of not having studied the text. After reading my post that I had read the text cover-to-cover for many years, I was sad that you didn't even so much as attempt a retraction.

If I were to quote some sort of "Atheist Handbook of Life", would that pull any weight with you? Likewise, your quoting of the Bible does not influence us. Why? Because we do not accept the text as "God breathed" (i.e., inspired). We see it as the writings of primative men seeking to explain the natural world through their superstitous worldviews.

You seem to think that we "hate God." We do not hate God. In fact, many of us (and myself personally) came to our atheist/agnostic positions after painfully searching for him through ardent study and faithful living. Frankly, I would jump for joy to know God. Who would not want to know Him/Her/It if there is a God? Only a fool would _knowingly_ reject an obviously-existing God.

It is I: I implore you as a fellow human-- Take some time to read some other worldviews: Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, and even atheist books. And also read some works critical of your own position. I mean this with all earnestness. If you are so sure of the truth, and are thus protected by God, then you have nothing to fear, right? (And btw, I don't mean reading what Christians have to say about Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and atheism. Let an _advocate_ of each position explain it, reason through it, and present it. Christian "apologists" always seem to misrepresent, misconstrue, and foul the whole position up.)

What benefit is there in this study for you? Assuming you are right, and God protects you from losing your faith, then you will at least be able to understand your target audience to convert. (Consider Paul on Mars Hill.) You will possibly be able to "see where people are coming from" rather than standing on a soapbox while assaulting your listeners with standard drone-speak.

The average Internet user nowadays is far more educated than the illiterate, backwoods, superstitious folk of previous centuries. It takes more than a wild-eyed preacher and a tattered holybook under his arm who promises damnation for disagreeing with his premises.

It takes sitting down, looking us in the eyes and saying, "You know, I'll confess, I haven't studied the major philosophies of the world; I've only studied my Bible. Can you help me to see why you believe what you do? Then, I'll go away and think about it for a couple months. Then, if I'm able, and if you care to listen, I'd like to compare and contrast those view with mine from the Bible in a reasoned dialogue (not monologue)."

If I were to classify myself very broadly, I would say, "I am an atheist who wishes he could be a theist but after 30+ years of wearisome study cannot find any sustainable reason to do so." I am not an atheist because I hate God. I am an atheist because I fanatically sought Him out for many years and came up with nothing-- TO MY GREAT DISSATISFACTION. Others here may call me weak, and that's OK. Maybe I am. I wanted (and still want) there to be a God. But through an honest search to the fullness of my faculties, and now thereby wearied by it, I sit exhausted having located no Deity.

I envy your faith (but not its caustic side effects), It is I, and wish I could continue to believe. But alas, I cannot. And now that I've awaken from my theism to become a freethinker, (and I do _NOT_ mean the following to be an insult, I'm speaking with earnestness here), I liken it to my desire to return to childhood. When I see my own young children with their youthful credulity, naiveté, and innocence, I wish that I could return to their world of mysteries, monsters, and fairies. But, I cannot: I am an adult have learned and experienced the cruelty of this world. For me to return to theism is as likely as my returning to childhood (and please, don't quote Jesus about my having to be converted to a little child to enter the kingdom of heaven).

I hope the time I've taken to write bears some fruit in your life. Or perhaps some reader passing by.

If you study the religions and philosophies of the world (including atheism, strong and weak), and you remain in your original position, then fine. But at least, earn the respect of other learned peoples. You will have more success trying to convert them by having studied, earnestly, their points of view.

Good effort.
Salvatore

boomSLANG said...

sl's argument from I don't like Dave8's style of writing:

1) I don't have a single shred of evidence for God's existance.
2) However, I don't like Dave8's style of writing.
3) Therefore, God exists.

LOL!

Jim Arvo said...

Salvatore, that was really outstanding. I've made many of the same points that you just laid out, but not nearly as eloquently. Well done.

Mary said...

Salvatore your posting made me weep. After a year of serious questioning of my life-long "faith", I am still "shaken" to my very core.

Dave8 said...

Salvatore, thanks for your post, well said...

GoneNsane said...

Salvatore, that's the first post of such length on here that I read completely through and was sorry when it ended. Very well said! And said humbly with more love and gentleness than I've heard from most Christians. Clap, clap clap!

ward said...

Forever and ever,
Yes I believe that putting your Son on a cross because there needs to be a blood offering to cleanse the sins of people is barbaric. That's why I don't believe that God placed Jesus on the cross. I believe It was a product of the times he lived in. Jesus proclaimed a message of hope, love, and mercy. Proclaiming that, "Blessed are the poor." In that time the message would surely be looked at with rage from the temple authorities. I am not a follower of Jesus because I believe he had to die for sins. I'm a follower because of his message.

Dano,

Faith without reason is dead. I certainly don't consider myself a fool and have given much thought into why I believe what I do. I'm not trying to convert anyone and frankly I could care less if you are an atheist or not. I came to this site to understand other's thinking and possibly get some insight. I apologize if I have offended you in some way. I guess I may never wake up but if your willing to teach me how to be a man I will look to you for your wise guidance.

Dano said...

ward
I refer you to Salvatore (Above.)

Please don't worry about offending me with your belief in Christianity and the Bible. I find it amusing. I am so grateful that I finally was able to see the absurdities of it that I only have compassion for those, who I know will never escape the cult.

What amuses me is the capacity that "you people" have to be able to look right at things that you would scold your children for making up, because they are so illogical and outlandish, and then swallowing them hook line and sinker, just because all of your friends are, or you parents did.

It makes me feel superior to you, but at the same time, I am aware that we are all going to end up at the same place when we die, and any illusions of superiority are just that, illusions.
Dano

Forever and ever said...

Ward
G'day mate.
The problem that remains is that you are still following someone or something that being a book.
Why not believe in Buddha.?

Ward.Before you stands an opportunitity to free yourself.
Your already half way there.

May I recommend that you read some of the book of urantia at www.urantia.org try paper 90 or 96
for a start.This urantia book not only agrees with your current reasoning .It tells you why god?did not inspire the death on the cross.

I once believed this book to be true.Now I believe that it is a steping stone to freedom.But thats up to you to decide.

When I realized that the Jesus Michael part was just a story and the rest was fiction?.Then I started to undertand that the bible
is the same.Fiction Lies and allegory.I use to believe that this book was the best written book in the world.However I also believed that jesus was god for 18 years and that the bible was the word of god.

Ward I am not very well educated Though I have learnt that having faith in my self and my fellow man.
While being careful who I trust. Has been more than a religious experience for me.

Try it out then come back and reason with us.Test all things hold onto what is good.Remember that jesus by his own confesson was not good. Only god? is good.

What would a supreme being be doing with an inferrior book.

Looking foward from hearing from you again.
What I believe now.Science is our salvation Man is God.who is the creator.??Could it be nature.

Salvatore Most excellent post.

SL. If you are going to attemp to chop a tree down you should have started at the bottom not the top.You should have insulted me.Then I would have just told you to fuck off.I have an excuse for my bad communication.I have a limited vocabulary.What's your excuse.

SL said...

S.L., it appears you "think" I base my identity and self-value on "writing"... oops, you're wrong, I'm not that shallow... but, psychologically speaking, you are projecting, or you are intellectually immature based on the comment, how sad...

On a more stimulating note, do you feel guilty when you masturbate on Wednesdays? What do you think about?

Man... What gives, bro? It sounds like the wheels are coming off. Sorry... But I don't have a clue as to what you're saying... or trying to say... or would like to say. And I don't think you do, either. Good Luck keeping your shit together... You'll need it.

Dave8 said...

S.L.: "But I don't have a clue as to what you're saying... or trying to say... or would like to say."

Dave8: "...you are projecting, or you are intellectually immature based on the comment, how sad..."

Just curious, are you remarried, or are you just rotting away, waiting to die in misery...

S.L.: "C'mon, bud, lighten up and laugh. It's only life. Cheer up, it gets worse."

Well, hurry up and do us all a favor, make your "worse", terminally worse :-) Good Luck...

Salvatore said...

Dear Friends,

Thanks for the kind compliments and camaraderie.

For all of the "brotherhood" supposed to exist in Christianity, I can personally testify to a deeper and firmer station among Freethinkers.

Just visualize a time, perhaps 500 to 1000 years from now, when religion has all but disappeared from the earth (no more hatred and violence based on imaginary friends). A time when virtually the entire populous realizes that humanity and the natural world is all we have, and as such works to improve the human condition.

I think the unity of that future time will be incredible. No more bomb-strapping fanatics blowing up other people. No more "turn or burn" pulpit machinations.

For earthly peace to flourish, truly, I believe the sheeple must be convinced (peaceably) of the absurdity and non-reality of deities, holy texts, and holy men.

Regrettably, as long as the fear of death holds sway in the hearts of men, deities and their earthly adherents shall also.

Thus, I think a principal task of Freethinkers is to assuage the fear of death in the common folk.

For me, nothingness (as in prebirth) has become a prospect of true peace. The absolute absence of emotional peaks and valleys, pleasure and pain, good and evil -- sustained and perfect rest.

I find that I love a perfect night's sleep wherein I experience no dreams. Upon awakening, I am immediately irritated to have been disturbed from such a perfect tranquility.

To me, now, death appears to be the sleep of perfect calm.

Though I'm not a practicing Buddhist, I believe the Buddha did identify certain accurate principals, such as "suffering is rooted in attachment" and "suffering can be done away with by extinguishing desire". While I am awake, I find myself incontrovertibly attached to many things; consequently I experience suffering. But, as I sleep, I have no attachments and have peace.

Though I won't unequivocally declare that I look forward to death, I feel that my fear of it has abated. Accordingly, the influence of wild-eyed holy men, their texts, and their supposed deities have no further reign.

May the blessings of human lovingkindness be to and through all of you.

Warmest of Regards,
Salvatore

boomSLANG said...

sl's argument from it sounds like the wheels are coming off:

1) I haven't a clue what Dave8 is saying.
2) It sounds like the wheels are coming off.
3) Therefore, God exists.


Yay.

Anonymous said...

I think the biggest problem with Christianity isn't God but people. People suck. I am starting to wonder if anyone really believes in God at all. If they did, wouldn't there lives reflect it? Wouldn't they actually care about others no matter the circumstance? I understand that people aren't perfect but there just seems that nobody actually cares. I want to believe that God is real. I do. But I want to see actual evidence in people's lives that God is good. I want to see Christians care more about peoples needs whether or not they believe in God. I have been a Christian for 10 years and I have felt at one point that I was called into ministry and to love people, but I am starting to doubt that its real when evidence of a changed heart is so vague, so fogged up. Even now, when I tell people I doubt God, they are more concerned with me losing faith than actually caring for me. I have been suicidial for awhile and I can't even get a pastor to contact me or my close friends to show any kind of compassion. They are just worried that I am going to hell not whether or not I am living in hell now. Maybe I'm just depressed. Maybe I am jus being apathetic, cynical and selfish but I can't help but think that there's got to be more than this if God is real.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Said:

" ... I have been a Christian for 10 years ... I have been suicidial for awhile and I can't even get a pastor to contact me or my close friends to show any kind of compassion. ...

You are not alone Anonymous. Christianity, for all it's hype, is a fruitless religion. Please don't waste your time on the people who espouse the myths.

I do hope you will try to find professional help for your depression. Stay away from religious councilors, they are bunk. There are many great medications on the market today that will actually make you feel much better, fast.

Please check out this site online.
http://www.psychologyinfo.com/depression/help.html

Good luck!


Onanite

freedy said...

Dear amonymous,..i fell your pain and can tell that what your going thru is a normal reaction to the cultish and controlling teachings of the church..
I ran a homeless outreach for12yrs.
I did this to fufill what jesus said too do,..feed and clothe the hungry.I visited those in prison and in hospitals,..but could hardly ever get anyone to help me. Most christians don't believe in the bible a thats a FACT! For they would be doing everything to reach the lost. Instead they build mega-churches way out in the suburbs to hide away from the sick,poor and needy.
The church is a disgrace according to the own BIBLE DECRCEES OF HELPING THOSE IN NEED.I can't drive by a church without getting a sad,nausiating feeling deep in the pit of my stomach. The church has become insestual cannibalistic,
body of shallow social climbers with little or NO CONCERN FOR THE OUTSIDE WORLD!!!!!! FREEDY

SL said...

Dave8 wrote... Just curious, are you remarried, or are you just rotting away, waiting to die in misery...

SL... Now what are you saying, Dave... only married people are rotting away?... waiting to die in, as you say, ‘misery?’?

I’ve heard of disparaging the institution of marriage... but you’ve sunk to new levels.

Nice going. I think you’re my hero.

Dave8 said...

S.L. 12/25/2005 7:00 AM EST: "And before y'all get bent out a shape, I'll have you know my wife died when she was only 28, in mid sentence, her last words being, 'Don't forget Wednesday...' (kerplunk -- and down she went)."

S.L: "Don't tell me that wouldn't put you through an emotional ringer."

S.L.: "Now as to the poster up top who was fretting about the whereabouts of God in the midst of earthly trevail... C'mon, bud, lighten up and laugh. It's only life. Cheer up, it gets worse."

1) Your suggest your wife dies...
2) You suggest that the event put you through an emotional ringer...
3) You suggest life gets progressively worse...
4) I suggest, if all you have is an escalation of misery, starting with the "level" of misery you in "theory" obtained by the loss of a 'wife', that you find a "way" to "end" your, unending and progressive misery...

S.L. 12/28/2005 2:16 PM: "SL... Now what are you saying, Dave... only married people are rotting away?... waiting to die in, as you say, ‘misery?’?"

Uh, no retard... that's what you said... I've only suggested that you live up to your misery theory, to its ultimate "end" state, and in a more rapid fashion, so that humanity doesn't have to be subjected to "your" pitiful state of affairs...

If you weren't totally co-dependent in your life, as it appears you are, it would seem that you may perhaps find other reasons to enjoy life, in a more interdependent state... I know that's real deep for you, I'll break it down if you need...

Oh, and mea culpa, if you have genetically triggered dysgraphia, which induces cognitive detachment to the point of retrograde amnesia... On a brighter note, you are the epitome of a "zero", that still has the greatest opportunity to become a "hero", at least for those who have your systemic malady - you can become a billboard icon... Here's a moral question, is it wrong for me to "hope" you are sterile?

boomSLANG said...

Jiminny christmas!.....we've already seen 3 or 4 rounds of psychological sparring! Please, sl....just bust out the ministering, so we can get to the KO!

LOL!

SL said...

Dave8... Okay, so you're a bright boy and Mommy was always so proud of her little Davey. But where does a world class humanitarian like you get off calling someone a 'retard?' -- you sound like a 4th grader, and gee, it hurts me to the quick. But if that's what it takes to float your boat... go right ahead, 'douche bag'!

Who's Boomslang?... and how many bananas do you feed him each day?

boomslang said...

A "boomslang" isn't a "who", sl....it's a "what".....it's a type of snake. Yes, that's right...I'm a snake and I speak fluent English and Spanish, AS WELL as Hebrew.

Now won't you minister for us? Por favor? Ssssssss!

GoneNsane said...

Anonymous, there are Christians and other religious folk who actually live what they preach, but you will find they are pretty much all non-traditionalists. I believe even Christ's disciples took a beautiful message of love and compassion and twisted it, whether to suit their own agendas or because they simply didn't understand it, and Christians have continued to mangle it ever since. Just the fact that you can see the real message of the Gospels is proof that you are ready for a spiritual change. There are caring people out there, you just need to set your mind to it that you're ready to move on and find them. When the student is ready, the teacher appears, and all that. All change requires some struggle, but it's worth it in the end.

Good luck, and never lose hope. Your light is shining in the darkness, and soon you will find you are not alone.

Dave8 said...

S.L: "But where does a world class humanitarian like you get off calling someone a 'retard?'

Retard: "Cause to move more slowly or operate at a slower rate;"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I understand its hard for you to see that this conversation is overwhelming for you, and therefore, you have been "retarded" throughout... perhaps, it would be more cordial for me to say... you are mentally challenged..., and, its not a fact throughout your life, as I don't know you full life... however, now that you know a "new" word in your vocabulary, you can apply it to other areas of your life as you see fit...

S.L. - "you sound like a 4th grader, and gee, it hurts me to the quick. But if that's what it takes to float your boat... go right ahead, 'douche bag'!"

Now, retard, intelligently describes your inability to keep up with your "own" posts, but perhaps your retardation regarding your own postings are hindered by dysgraphia...

Dysgraphia: "Impaired ability to learn to write."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

For instance, you use the word, 'douche bag'...

Douche: "A small syringe with detachable nozzles; used for vaginal lavage and enemas"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Well, it appears that a douche bag, is an inanimate object, that would put a twist on cretionism theory, do objects have a "soul"? Perhaps, you meant it metaphorically, like... I'm a douche bag, as it appears I am trying to clean up some nasty infection or clean out waste material - like you for instance...

S.L., your advice to the testimony author is mentally immature, i.e., "suck it up, and die", and displays your level of understanding of the human condition in any type of positive light... Therefore, why not do us all a favor and leave... unless, you have something... "intelligent" to offer...

S.L.: "Who's Boomslang?... and how many bananas do you feed him each day?"

BoomSLANG, is a friend, perhaps you should talk to them directly... why do you need to go through me as an intermediary, I'm not Jesus... unless, you need me to "deconflict" your "conflicted" posts...

You posted a comment to "Mark", and others have made "observations" regarding your advice, if you have nothing more to offer, then leave...

Anonymous said...

Mark,

I am very sorry for your loss and pain. I too lost my mother last year to lung cancer, my first husband to a sudden heart attack at age 50, the death of his brother at the age of 49 to liver cancer and I myself survived 12 months of harsh treatments for breast cancer. I do understand your pain. I jope you peace and the answers you are looking for.

Anonymous said...

Since Science and the Bible was mentioned in this post I wanted to place some food thought for FREE THINKERS...

Science and the Bible
Questions for Free Thinkers


There are many passages in the Bible that reveals scientific principles hundreds and even thousands of years before modern man discovered them.

How do we explain the prophets of old'S knowledge and writing about them without any foreknowledge of these principles? Could it have been the inspired hand of God upon these men? Did they indeed write and reveal what was unknown to them, long before they were known to man? I believe so, for there is no other logical conclusion as to how these men of old wrote about things, they, nor humanity, had any knowledge of yet.

1. Gravity – the earth, the Stars, and the moon are suspended in space. Job, known to be the oldest book in the Bible, written long before Galileo and Newtons discovery spoke of this: “He spreads out the Northern over empty space; He suspends the earth over nothing.” Job 26:7...how did Job no to write about this?

2. Constellations - In 1610 a French Lawyer by the name of Fabri de Peiresc discovered and named Orion. The Pleiades, was discovered and given a name in the 19th c. But God had already named them long ago, listen to Job 38:31-33, “Can thou bind the cluster of the Pleiades or loosen the bands of Orion?” Notice it also describes them as being scattered among the heavens. They weren’t named yet in History, yet Job knew there names.

3. Geodesy – The study of the shape of the earth. This is an interesting one, for even today there are those who in spite, of God’s revelation and scientific fact belong to the Flat World Society. Copernicus discovered in 1475 that the earth was a sphere. Isaiah did not understand the depth of the knowledge in this passage when he recorded it, but none the less, it was written. “He sits enthroned above the vault (circle) of the earth…” Isaiah 40:22. Note: The Hebrew language had no word for ‘sphere’, the original Hebrew word is ‘vault’ which means circle, or zenith. A circle is a sphere.

4. Hydrology – The study of water and it’s cycles on the earth. In the 1600’s science just began to understand the process by which the clouds are formed and water is evaporated, ground water is replenished, and the cycle of rain. The writers of Job and Isaiah recorded this concept as revealed by God, hundreds of years before. Job 26:8, “He wraps up the water in His clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.” Job 36:27-28, “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain from the mist; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.” Isaiah 55:10, “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there without watering the earth.” Ecclesiastes 1:7, “All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. The place the streams come from, there they return again.”

5. Meteorology - Study of the circulation of the atmosphere. In the 17th c. Galaleo discovered how this principle worked. It’s not surprising that God had revealed this process to us around 935 B.C. through the written word in Ecclesiastes 1:6, “The wind blows to the south and turns to the north, the wind continues swirling along; and on it’s circular course the wind returns.”

6. Matter – The substance made up of invisible particles. If you think science has an exclusive on this one, look at the written Word of God. Romans 1:20, “For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen…” also Hebrews 11:13, By faith we understand the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen is not made out of what is visible.”

7. Physiology - the study of the human body. In 1628 A.D. science discovered that man’s life was sustained by the blood and its flow in the circulatory system. Before this was realized, leeching was used as a medical practice. Look at what God revealed in Leviticus 17:11 around 1450-1410 B.C., “The life of the flesh is in the blood.”

8. Astronomy – For centuries, scientists, and astronomers thought they could count the precise number of stars in the heavens (universe). Brahe, for example, said there were 777, while Kepler claimed the total to be 1,005, yet, Hipparchus counted 1,022, while yet another, Ptolemy concluded there was 1,056. Finally Galaleo, and scientists came to the conclusion, that the stars could not be numbered. Had they only sought the Word of God, they would not have spent their time in vain pursuit of counting the uncountable. God clearly revealed through the Prophet Jeremiah in 33:22, “…the host of heaven cannot be numbered.” Jeremiah 31:37, “Thus say’s the Lord, if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth stretched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done.” Well folks, they’re still around. Look at Genesis 15:5, “He took him outside and said, “look up at the heavens and count the stars…if indeed you can count them.” Science has only recently discovered by John Wilkins in 1638 that the heavenly bodies are not the same and that the moon has no light of its own. Job on the other hand in chapter 25 verse 5 states, “Behold even the moon has no brightness.” Paul spoke of this in the New Testament, I Corinthians 15:41, “there is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory.” How did Paul know to write about this a thousand years before science discovered it?

Look at what Jeremiah 31:35-36 says about the orbits, “who gives the sun for light by day, and fixed the order of the moon and the stars for the light by night. Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; the Lord of Hosts is His name. If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then the offspring of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever.” This wasn’t discovered until the 16th century.

9. Isostosy – the study of the balance or equilibrium of the earth, resulting from equal pressure on all sides wasn’t discovered until 1959, almost two-thousand years after God revealed this knowledge. At that point, scientists realized the relation between the distribution of land and water. God revealed through Isaiah, 40:12 as early as 740-680 B. C, this truth. “Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, and marked off the heavens by the span, and calculated the dust of the earth by the measure, and weighted the mountains in a balance, and the hills in a pair of scales.” Psalms 104:5, reveals this, “God established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter forever and ever.” What more does man need to know?

10. Psychology - Doctors of Psychology have just begun to realize the affect of laughter on depression. God the wise physician had already told us through his prophet, had they sought His Word, they would have known. Proverbs 16:24, “pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.” Proverbs 17:22, “A joyful heart is good medicine, but a broken spirit dries up bones.” Drs. of Psychology tell us that what we think of ourselves affects our behavior...is this a new though, was this Fraud's thought? No it was God's insight into man and revealed though Solomon. Proverbs 23:7 "for as he (a man) thinks in his heart, so is he." Psychology searches for the answers to give men the peace of a sound mind, would they have searched the scriptures they would have found the answer. 2 Timothy 1:7 says a sound mind comes through God and Isaiah 26:3 says, when our mind is fixed on Him, He will keep our minds in perfect peace.

For those who want not to believe in an infinate God, they will always find away, even when there is undisputable evidence or even questionable evidence of His supernatural power in the universe. Why, because with pride men would rather deny the possibility, then admit they were wrong.

Can anyone explain these points away with a logical explanation?

.:webmaster:. said...

Nice copy and paste job anony. It would also be nice if you posted with at least a pseudonym other than anonymous. It's hard to keep up with all the Christian posters using anonymous as their name.

Anyway, I fail to see the relevance of a single thing you've copied and pasted here.

Primitive people realized laughter was a good thing and that somehow proves Christianity is true?

Most of your rhetoric sounds vaguely like a television special I watched recently quoting believers in the prophecies of Nostradamus - all hype but no substance.

It's like this Anony #734 (made up number, who can count them all), If you want to say you see some awesome "fact" that proves the Bible is the Word of God from a particular English translation of verse of poetry found in the Bible, well, then you have that right - you're free to believe it.

Would you grant me the same freedom to disbelieve in your Bible, or do you look forward to the day I will be burning in horrific agony for ignoring your wisdom?

FREEDY said...

Com'on dissolusion ex-cristians out there ,....don't be shy,.....GO AHEAD ,TAKE A CHANCE!MAKE A NEW POST,,,,SOMEONE?????
JUST DO IT!!(you'llbe glad you did) THE FUNDIES ARE GETTING BORED, AND NEED NEW LOST SHEEP TO LASSO AND BRING BACK TO THE FOLD!
ANYBODY OUT THERE?
FREEDY NEED A FIX,MAN, BYE!BYE!

Kate said...

It is an absolute truth that our christian poster copied and pasted his drivel (One cannot go forward and backward at the same time, etc.) from letusreason.org/Apolo1.htm. Without attribution, if I recall correctly.

Is his religion so difficult to defend that he cannot even do so with his own thoughts and words? It would seem absolutely so.

PS - If a car is travelling forward, but against the flow of traffic, can it not be said to be going both forward and backward at the same time?

SL said...

Dave8's latest: "I understand its hard for you to see that this conversation is overwhelming for you, and therefore, you have been "retarded" throughout"

SL: Hey, Blow-V-8, if that's what it takes to flatter yourself--I'll buy the illusion...(though we both know the truth): There'd be no need for your dimestore vocabulary if you had anything of import to say -- but sadly, you don't.

So go on... keep dressing up what little you do have in polysyllabic finery... It's kinda cute... like watching an under-endowed loser make amends with a 'bulging' sweat sock.

However, I can't bear it, I shant witness the spectacle anymore... I've a low tolerance for pain (and believe me, it's painful), seeing your other posts, and having come fully aware that you squandered the fine education Mommy and Daddy secured. It's a shame. Or should I say, 'Hisssssss' in homage to your little sidekick, DooRang? A snake, really? Golly Gee, you ex's sure is clever, don't ya know.

boomslang said...

Kate asked: "Is his religion(Anon's) so difficult to defend that he cannot even do so with his own thoughts and words?"

Not so fast, Kate---I'm pretty sure Anon used his/her own words at the end of "Gravity 101" where at the end of the plagiarized paragraph he/she asks: ....."how did Job *no* to write about this?" LOL!

boomslang said...

Yoo hoo? sl?..where art thou? Por favor, please state your case for Biblegod and that bastard son of his. And make it snappy----Mr. Ed is waiting for me back at the Garden. Sssssss! LOL!

Dave8 said...

S.L.: "So go on... keep dressing up what little you do have in polysyllabic finery... It's kinda cute... like watching an under-endowed loser make amends with a 'bulging' sweat sock."

Ah, it appears we are finally getting to the "true" expertise from S.L. Obviously, a connoisseur in the fine art of deception, using the almighty, "bulging" sweat sock...

Would it be presumptious for me, to state that "S.L." stands for "Size Large" as applied to the size of the sock(s) you use, in your "bulging" sweat sock operations? I fear if I leave this new low you have introduced, I may lose you with polysyllabic words, no matter how pretty they appear to you... Also, just curious, is there a Delta between the size sock(s) you use, and the geometric area of your buccal cavity... or, do you find that the size of the sock(s) you use, are complimentary in size to your buccal cavity...

S.L.: "Golly Gee, you ex's sure is clever, don't ya know."

There's been a lot of research on how much a rat can be taught, for instance, a rat's cognitive function is limited by physiological factors, even though rats are in contact with a higher species, call it humanity, we can not "transfer" thought, or "knowledge" to those species who are not "capable" of cogently ingesting and assembling our vocal vibrations into images that are meaningful for them... So, as it may appear from a rats point of view, that the human is a walking bag of hot air... the reality, is... a rat is just not capable of higher order perception... sort of like you S.L., a person could spend their entire lifetime talking to you, but your "lateral conception" of reality, based on your self-imposed neurological limits, prevent you from reaching that next level of cognitive maturity... some identify this type of restriction, as a debilitating factor, commonly referred to as "narrow-mindedness"... have a great day...

SL said...

Dave... take for example, the following... your story.

There's been a lot of research on how much a rat can be taught, for instance, a rat's cognitive function is limited by physiological factors, even though rats are in contact with a higher species, call it humanity, we can not "transfer" thought, or "knowledge" to those species who are not "capable" of cogently ingesting and assembling our vocal vibrations into images that are meaningful for them... So, as it may appear from a rats point of view, that the human is a walking bag of hot air... the reality, is... a rat is just not capable of higher order perception... sort of like you S.L., a person could spend their entire lifetime talking to you, but your "lateral conception" of reality, based on your self-imposed neurological limits, prevent you from reaching that next level of cognitive maturity... some identify this type of restriction, as a debilitating factor, commonly referred to as "narrow-mindedness"... have a great day...

Dave, why the need to 'highlight' the words "transfer," "knowledge," and "capabable"? I get it. We all (yawn) get it.

Okay, Cutie-Pie, comparing me to a rat and yourself to either (choose one, no combination of) Mendel, F. Scott Fitzgerald or Barnaby Jones is intriguing, I might go so far as to say "interesting". . .But only to the extent by which you plodded wearily to reach--- (How I wish it had been for a bottle!) Instead, it was for either a point or a joke but it's no matter now-- both have remained elusive.

Davey, my boyo, let's try another run at the rat's tale, shall we? Here’s an experiment for you and the rat, let’s call him Ben. Try to “transfer” the “knowledge” of Ben’s inevitable death upon him. Use whatever method you deem fit to make an impression, be it lasting or otherwise. See if you can get him to budge. Go ahead, use ‘vocal vibrations’ (and by the way, what was ‘that’ about? Why not say, speech? Or is that too pedestrian? Or maybe it’s the overweening pride of you’re not allowing the commonplace when a cliched or heavy-handed word will do?), strobe lights, bullhorns, even a Power Point presentation will fail to make a dent in the rat’s outlook. Not because the rat is challenged------no, far from it. His, is another playing field, or gutter and, unlike man, he isn’t saddled (or stymied) by our sense of dread. Yet, despite what you perceive as a handicap and I view as a blessing: being ineffectual at cogently ingesting the vibrations (good, or otherwise) of people (researchers, brainiacs, people of your ilk) yet in spite of all this – my household pets still retain the good sense to ‘do it’ on your posts, the bulk of which I’ve taken to ‘print out’ and strew about the loft these past few days. . .You’ve been a lifesaver: (There’s been a paper shortage since cancelling the Times back in ‘57. . . and prior to ‘discovering’ you, all Slade and Ella had to look down on were back, back issues of the ancient Herald Examiner... they folded shop years ago... oops, sorry, I digress.) But the good news I’ve got an appetite, in spite of your latest. Keep up the good work. SL

Dave8 said...

S.L.: "Davey, my boyo, let's try another run at the rat's tale, shall we? Here’s an experiment for you and the rat, let’s call him Ben. Try to “transfer” the “knowledge” of Ben’s inevitable death upon him. Use whatever method you deem fit to make an impression, be it lasting or otherwise. See if you can get him to budge. Go ahead, use ‘vocal vibrations’ (and by the way, what was ‘that’ about? Why not say, speech? Or is that too pedestrian? Or maybe it’s the overweening pride of you’re not allowing the commonplace when a cliched or heavy-handed word will do?), strobe lights, bullhorns, even a Power Point presentation will fail to make a dent in the rat’s outlook."

Dave8: "we can not "transfer" thought, or "knowledge" to those species who are not "capable" of cogently ingesting and assembling our vocal vibrations into images that are meaningful for them..."

Again, excuse me for stating the obvious, but... it appears you have just restated what I have already made a case for, thanks...

S.L.: "Not because the rat is challenged------no, far from it."

A challenge need not exist, when someone needs to communicate... They are either capable of communication with another animal or they're not... is classical conditioning, a form of communication... why don't you delve into what "thought" is for us...

S.L.: "His, is another playing field, or gutter and, unlike man, he isn’t saddled (or stymied) by our sense of dread."

Now, how did you come to that conclusion, buttercup... animals, by far, sense danger and "react" as a whole much better than mankind... many people who instinctively sense danger, continue to ignore their senses, and why... because they over-think, or deny their senses... Perhaps, you mean to say, animals don't "fear" death, because they have no concept of absurd objects, i.e., "hell"...

S.L.: "Yet, despite what you perceive as a handicap and I view as a blessing: being ineffectual at cogently ingesting the vibrations (good, or otherwise) of people (researchers, brainiacs, people of your ilk) yet in spite of all this – my household pets still retain the good sense to ‘do it’ on your posts, the bulk of which I’ve taken to ‘print out’ and strew about the loft these past few days. . ."

Well, it appears you have missed the mark again... perhaps, I believe over-thinking our natural senses at times can become a handicap to humanity, just look at yourself as an example... there are many rape cases, where the victim senses something was wrong, but didn't prevent or leave the scene... In fact, I think that keeping it simple, i.e., pets, makes life a little less hectic, all they have to do is do as they are directed, by nature, i.e., humans at times... however, without "know"ing perceptively what they do on a higher level of cognition... for instance, Slade and Ella aren't capable of "know"ing the posts you provide them are "moi's" posts, they associate the posts with "you"... and it does my heart good, to hear that they are taking the time to "do it", on what they can only conceive of, as an object associated with "you"...

S.L.: "But the good news I’ve got an appetite, in spite of your latest."

I bet... I suspect your gravitation to topics of scat, have somehow driven you towards "coprophagia", a perfect arrangement between you and your pets... Curious, does it hurt your knees when you are on tootsie roll patrol, or do you use a stick with a nail on the end... bon apetite...

SL said...

S.L.: "His, is another playing field, or gutter and, unlike man, he isn’t saddled (or stymied) by our sense of dread."

Dave8: “Now, how did you come to that conclusion, buttercup... animals, by far, sense danger and "react" as a whole much better than mankind... many people who instinctively sense danger, continue to ignore their senses, and why... because they over-think, or deny their senses... Perhaps, you mean to say, animals don't "fear" death, because they have no concept of absurd objects, i.e., "hell"...

Oh Dave, might you be confusing the word dread with fear? If I’d meant to say fear I'd've said fear, snookums. Fear brings reaction – it’s implicit. Dread is nebulous, and the resultant effect is more often than not ambiguous – hence the term, frozen as a deer in the headlights.

Tell me, as it appears you may be a fan, an avid devotee of the beloved Animal Planet (or does your knowledge of coprophagia come from personal experience, say, childhood memories in the family Sparky?), but how exactly would an animal, any animal, react to a danger comprised more of dread than fear? A time bomb, for example... Or any potential but veiled threat. I suspect he’d handle it much the same way my ‘kids’ do.
They (Slade & Ella), despite your high regard for critters, wouldn’t be acting from any intuitive base, would they? With our little furry friends, Dave, it’s all pre-coded instinct and rote behavior imbedded by careful observation. Take for example, Slade, he’s had bladder problems this week, and as of late, all he’s able to do is sulk near the monitor and watch me wince over the tripe you come up with. He’s a keen observer and I’ve found, in return, that I’ve taken more careful note of him lately...especially at the precise moment of his sizable discharge. Why to see the little thug gangster wince and lets loose— and make no mistake, he knows perfectly well whose posts are being hailed as piss-pore.
But to you, Dave, Slade and the rest of the animals, “sense danger and "react" as a whole much better than mankind.” And come to think of it, this would make perfect sense, seeing Slade stand and deliver, cool as a breeze, with a gritty yet urbane air of sophistication, holding his head high and rendering his final critique on your work – an accurate appraisal, too, I might add.
But, hey, I’m only human... and not as keenly attuned as your animal pals, Ace Ventura.

Oops, I didn’t address the hell comment from above. And I wanted to get to that. Maybe next week, I’m heading south for a little time with my daughter. Have a nice weekend.

boomslang said...

Speaking of "feces", I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and shit a better argument for God. Sssssstill waiting. LOL!

Okay, sl.....maybe when you get back from your date, you could tell the class where god is, other than inside your "mind".

Forever and ever said...

See ya
snookums
buttercup
cutie pie
boyo it must be that time of the month

How to say absolutly nothing using 5,000 words by Dr SL Do little.

Dave8 said...

Hey Forever and Ever, I used buttercup with S.L., it appears he didn't get the sarcasm, as he replied using the term "sparky" ;-) Such is life, and I agree, S.L., really hasn't honed in on Mark's testimony, with anything of clarity... or anything directly related to religion, albeit, he seems to have promised to delve into "hell" next week... perhaps, his visit with family will render teh copious notes required to render us the finer details of "hell"... If he is on vacation, then who is running hell... Oh, the mysteries of life... Well, take care...

Dave8 said...

S.L.: "Oh Dave, might you be confusing the word dread with fear? If I’d meant to say fear I'd've said fear, snookums. Fear brings reaction – it’s implicit."

Hmmmm, so fear brings about "reaction", therefore, its simply implied that fear is causal... does this in and of itself mean, that "dread" doesn't produce "reaction"... I wonder, is there anything in life that isn't causal... I'm sure you have an answer... oh, and while you ponder that, remember "change" is a Universal causal factor, and the entire universe is "interdependent", therefore, you are looking for something that escapes the bounds of "change", and attachment to this Universe...

S.L.: "Dread is nebulous, and the resultant effect is more often than not ambiguous – hence the term, frozen as a deer in the headlights."

Hmmmm, the effects of "dread" are nebulous, but you show a clear example of the causal effects of dread... does this make you a "dread" guru, one who is capable of un-nebulizing "dreadful" effects, and presenting them to the lay dread-person...

Fear: "Be uneasy or apprehensive about; "I fear the results of the final exams"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Dread:
1) Apprehension: fearful expectation or anticipation; "the student looked around the examination room with apprehension"

2) Fear: be afraid or scared of; be frightened of; "I fear the winters in Moscow"; "We should not fear the Communists!"

3) Awful: causing fear or dread or terror; "the awful war"; "an awful risk"; "dire news"; "a career or vengeance so direful that London was shocked"; "the dread presence of the headmaster"; "polio is no longer the dreaded disease it once was"; "a dreadful storm"; "a fearful howling"; "horrendous explosions shook the city"; "a terrible curse"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Per definion, both fear and dread can be experienced with "apprehension", and both can be "causal", trixy... There appears to be a word here, ah, "experienced", in that observation... Maybe, we've left a realm of your expertise, I don't see the distinction as 'clear cut' as you appear to want to make these two words, that describe a "state of being/mind"...

If Ella and Slade "do it", in the wrong place, and you have classically conditioned them with a spanking for not hitting the proverbial target... are they experiencing "fear" or "dread"... if they shake when you get home, one must observe that your pet, would be apprehensive, causing them to "fear" your actions, and "dread" the moment upon your arrival to the scat scene...

Perhaps you used a bad example earlier, stating that pets don't fret/dread over their own death... and then attempting to discern between "fear" and "dread"... as its apparent a pet can have apprehension via environmental conditioning, which can lead to "fear" and "dread"... Now, someone could argue that a pet can't be given the "experience" of "death" through conditioning, and therefore, a pet can't "fear" or "dread" death... However, I fail to see the point, as... we humble humans don't get that "experience" either, however, it appears that we are capable of "creating" an "environment" to facilitate the experience of fear and dread intrinsically, without any evidence... and even spreading the "fear" and "dread" among our species, with pure linguists...

The initial statement was that "thought" can not be transferred from humans to other animals using "language" which is nothing more than manipulation of frequency and amplitude, in patterns... perhaps, its the patterns, that seem to not make sense to animals... if you could master the patterns of thought, and imbue your pets with notions of "hell", and thus, burden them with "fear" and "dread", without "any" evidence... would you...

If you do any studying over the new year, perhaps you should do it on language, physics, and morality, an agreeable combination for the topic at hand... as language and communication can "kill", "create" and "nurture" life, with proper linguistic inflection and prosody..., humans can only master a limited range of linguistic and communication prowess, and invoke these areas on a limited scale... based on our conversation thus far, I suspect you are more "limited" than some I have met, in your skills... not that I fault you, it just appears you are ingnorant, based on your level of knowledge at this point in your life, and, based on intuition and your age, you appear to have "less" time than many... perhaps, profound wisdom will hit you over night...

S.L.: "Tell me, as it appears you may be a fan, an avid devotee of the beloved Animal Planet (or does your knowledge of coprophagia come from personal experience, say, childhood memories in the family Sparky?),"

Well, if you must know, clinical studies have rendered that knowledge for me, and the thought of your diminished state of affairs, sparked with the "words" you use, and experiences, seemed to prime my memory to recall words that are descriptive of your situation...

S.L.: "...but how exactly would an animal, any animal, react to a danger comprised more of dread than fear?"

Again, can you discern the difference between "fear" and "dread"... it appears you are trying to lean on the edge of time as a dimension, that you just can't put into words... would it be so bold of me, to suppose that you somehow see "fear" as "fleeting", and "dread" as something more "prolonged"... Its still a state of being, perhaps, you can do some research on quantum theory, and give us a spectrum, starting with fear and escalating to some point of dread... of course, in a spiral method/model, as it appears the two propogate into unyielding escalation...

S.L.: "A time bomb, for example... Or any potential but veiled threat. I suspect he’d handle it much the same way my ‘kids’ do."

Well, now... it appears language/communication still has its place in this conversation, can you "think" of any way to end an escalating cycle of "dread", or "fear"...

S.L.: "They (Slade & Ella), despite your high regard for critters, wouldn’t be acting from any intuitive base, would they?"

Well now, "intuitive", seems to be a "natural" event... or do you suggest that there are "other" forces in this universe, that spark our actions...

S.L.: "With our little furry friends, Dave, it’s all pre-coded instinct and rote behavior imbedded by careful observation."

Truly, and what makes humans... different... in that regard...

S.L.: "Take for example, Slade, he’s had bladder problems this week, and as of late, all he’s able to do is sulk near the monitor and watch me wince over the tripe you come up with."

Now, now, although your "language" can possibly create adverse affects visually, I have to generate the words in my mind's eye, to synergize the total effect... and currently, I have invoked the personality of Mickey Mouse to speak for you, which has a pleasant and calming affect, perhaps I should resolve to calling you "Big Ben"...

S.L.: "He’s a keen observer and I’ve found, in return, that I’ve taken more careful note of him lately...especially at the precise moment of his sizable discharge."

Does this discharge excite you... do you find more pleasure, the larger the discharge... perhaps, its the scent of fresh urine, in your loft... if Slade pinches it off a little early, do you find yourself feeling jilted... perhaps, your urophilia is a depression enabler...

S.L.: "Why to see the little thug gangster wince and lets loose— and make no mistake, he knows perfectly well whose posts are being hailed as piss-pore."

Of course, Slade does, the paper has your scent all over it, its all about you, you da' man...

S.L.: "But to you, Dave, Slade and the rest of the animals, “sense danger and "react" as a whole much better than mankind.” And come to think of it, this would make perfect sense, seeing Slade stand and deliver, cool as a breeze, with a gritty yet urbane air of sophistication, holding his head high and rendering his final critique on your work – an accurate appraisal, too, I might add."

Again, it appears you have some paraphilia issues, as you seem to be drawn into even the smallest of detail during waste release, all the way down to the elegant grimmace on your pets' face...

S.L.: "But, hey, I’m only human... and not as keenly attuned as your animal pals, Ace Ventura.'

It appears you have bonded in ways with animals, though, not acceptable to the norms of society, I wouldn't call you wrong for it... I mean, your hedonistic ventures seem to give you hours of pleasure with Nature... I suppose you have your hands full, much of your time...

S.L.: "Oops, I didn’t address the hell comment from above. And I wanted to get to that. Maybe next week, I’m heading south for a little time with my daughter. Have a nice weekend."

It appears your bonding knows no limits... Have a great new year.

SL said...

Hey Dave... You are too funny. I was packing up and attending to a few items but I made room to read your post. And I'm glad I did, its howlingly funny. It'll ease the burden of travel, travel that I dread... No. Fear... not exactly.
Okay... the difference of the two words is there... somewhere... and if I ever find it, hopefully I'll be able to articulate it. But now is not the time.

Thanks again for the witty reply. I like your style... that is, when you're not being a ween.

Now it seems I've created a mild buzz, a little speculation as to my views on hell. But I'm afraid I'll disappoint:I have no view... I've never been nor do intend on going.

Without getting into detail, other than what you know -- hell for me already occurred back in July '91.

Dave8 said...

S.L.: "Hey Dave... You are too funny. I was packing up and attending to a few items but I made room to read your post. And I'm glad I did, its howlingly funny. It'll ease the burden of travel, travel that I dread... No. Fear... not exactly.
Okay... the difference of the two words is there... somewhere... and if I ever find it, hopefully I'll be able to articulate it. But now is not the time."

Take your time, my man, it appears our language is elusive on many layers, as I dread fear, and fear dread...

S.L.: "Thanks again for the witty reply. I like your style... that is, when you're not being a ween."

Well, we each capitalize on our strengths, and sometimes a clear ween, is much more effective than a cloudy mind...

S.L.: "Now it seems I've created a mild buzz, a little speculation as to my views on hell. But I'm afraid I'll disappoint:I have no view... I've never been nor do intend on going."

We appear to have something in common, neither of us are going to hell, however, I am probably more convinced than you are on the matter...

S.L.: "Without getting into detail, other than what you know -- hell for me already occurred back in July '91."

From a ween; Hell is what we make it... and nothing more... let yourself live in peace, don't overthink matters... Religion took my childhood; I allowed myself to become abused over many years without knowing it, I lived with fear, guilt, anger, shame, and always out of balance between what I instinctively understood as right, and what I had been taught... I lost family along the way, while living in that state of being, and it affected them also... In the end, I found myself in a precarious situation where I had the option to decide; to save myself, or allow myself to just let go... I decided I was worth saving; and here, on a blog; amidst all the paraphilia rhetoric, and brazing, I was able to make you smile... such, gives meaning to life in a reciprocal interdependent manner, as I benefitted from some laughter myself... If you feel you are still living in hell, it appears you have many room-mates... and with all sincerity, have a happy new year...

Forever and ever said...

Hello sparky

sorry buttercup

see ya weeny

SL said...

Hello sparky

sorry buttercup

see ya weeny

Alrighty then, first things first: the sparky reference was a typo, and negligence due to may failing to proof. So sorry, but til you brought it up, I didn't feel it worth re-addressing. Aparently I'm wrong on 2 counts. Soooo Amended it reads...

"or does your knowledge of coprophagia come from personal experience, say, childhood memories in the family den with Sparky?"

Out of context, and a day or 2 late, hell---- even at the time, it hardly seemed worth the effort to correct. Moving on...

Buttercup is Dave's... and mighty fine, I might add.

See ya weeny is mine, and all encompassing, so it'll work real fine - right now.

F&E... see ya weeny

.:webmaster:. said...

Okay, I don't know about anyone else, but I think most people would agree that this discussion has been derailed long enough.

Can we please return to a less cryptic and more widely edifying vein?

Forever and ever said...

Where was this god when I needed him.

see above post

I agree A funny walk would be more
less cryptic and be a more wildlee
ediflying vine.

Anonymous said...

Hi, this is Mark, the guy who wrote the testimony at the top of this page. I want to thank everyone who responded with kind words and encouragements. Please be reassured that those messages mean a great deal to me. I am amazed at the responses of some of the 'Christian's, though. More than a few have accused me of never being a true Christian in the first place. Such arrogance. They simply can't get their heads round the fact that someone could real the Bible from cover to cover for years and then find enough holes to drive a bus through. It's those contradictions, and the inability of Christian to explain them, that have led me to question the validity of Christianity. So much for the loving brothers and sisters! I remember with a smile a song I learned in church years ago; "..and they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love" yeah, right!

Bob said...

Please accept my condolences for your lost. "You will know them by their fruit". "..and they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love" Yeah, right!!! You are right, you are loved and "good with them" until you challenge their fragile reality, then you become the spawn of satan. I hold-up as a shining example of christian love the daughter of the German prostitute who logged on as anonymous (12/23/2005 9:44 PM): "Shame on you - Snap out of it, repent, and get yourself right with God again!"

She went through some horrible stuff - I suppose God had a purpose. He sure didn't protect her. Funny how God doesn't seem to show-up to help defenseless children in their time of innocence and vulnerability. She would probably say that it was because she wasn't a christian, yet. Although I really don't know her and I shouldn't judge, but it seems to me that she may be a victim of her attackers, her past and the people who are victimizing her now. I imagine that her fundamentalist church is getting a lot of money from her. I'm sure that is an amount that is "until it hurts". I have seen their predatory practices with my own eyes.

I hope that you find the "fruit" of us non-christians much more Christ-like than the supposed "christians" who have trolled through here to assault us "heathens" with their "kind" words of concern. They are not concerned, they are merely "whistling past the graveyard". They are afraid that something real is happening here.


I have to admit that I have only read through about half of the comments - there a lot of them. I stopped at Jose:

"Jose said...
Sorry to hear about your losses.

But the fact is, people die. Shit happens. Sometimes life sucks ass so hard your whole world will start to stink.

There's no point being angry at God, he isn't there. If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at the people who misled you when it counted. Be angry at the people who forced you to spend years of your life singing to a brick wall instead of spending time with those you loved.

Be angry at yourself for believing a lie, but God? You may as well be angry at the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the proverbial Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Learn from your mistakes and suck it up. Spend time with those remaining in your life. Don't take empty platitudes from Christian well-wishers at face value.

Learn your lesson and make each new day count from now on.

This is your one chance at life... don't fuck it up.

12/23/2005 12:43 PM "

While he may seem insensitive, he is like the friend who tells you that you have mustard on your tie. I do not think that he was especially targeting you - I think that he was telling all of us that we have "mustard on our ties". It is a wake-up call to accept the only true "meaning" that we can accept from death and that is that we must choose to live - fully.

It confounds me how the terrorists who crashed the Airliners into the World Trade Center for the reward of 72 virgins in the afterlife, thought that it was a real reward. We experience life through our senses. Sex (assuming that is the appeal of 72 virgins) cannot be experienced except through our senses (sight, touch, hearing, taste, etc.) When you die, your body, the vessel that has the senses, no longer functions. How can a "spirit" experience anything except on a metaphysical level? I have had some really good fantasies and dreams about some women that I would have loved to have been with, but it was no replacement for actually experiencing them with my body. I am profoundly sad that I have wasted half my life waiting for a better tomorrow, whenever God got around to giving it to me.

For centuries, the people who have controlled the masses while they rape the earth of its resources (be it money, art, trees or oil) have tried to convince "lesser" citizens that their reward is in heaven. If I have a mansion in heaven, please tell me:

1) How will I enjoy it?
2) I will not able to see it, how will I know what it looks like?
3) What would dinner taste like?
4) Would the wine be a good vintage? Does it have a nice bouquet? Will the tannins be soft?
5) What does sex feel like with dis-embodied souls?

What is the meaning of life? Oh, I don't know - how about enjoying it!!! How about living life to the fullest!!!

I posted my testimony yesterday (Been There, Got the T-Shirt). I didn't say how my fundamentalist mother died. She had battled a number of minor illnesses prior to having a relatively minor stroke while in the hospital for tests. My sister and I did not go to see her one day because she was leaving the hospital soon. My dad found her lying in her own vomit. It was a Sunday. The nurses weren't paying attention and she had thrown-up earlier that day. She died that night.

She had a "premonition" of her own death. She had reported smelling flowers and thought that she was getting the fragrance from heaven because there were none in the house. She seemed at ease with going to be with her heavenly father, eventhough there was nothing terminally wrong with her. She had decided to die, at the age of 56. She was ready to leave this world for paradise...

Peace and may your tragic lost find some comfort for you.

Thanks for your time,

Bob

Brian Heibert said...

God is always there. It may seem like he isn't there, that he doesn't care. But he is there, and does care. Try crying out to him, ask him to help you, ask for his presence, and he will come. Ask and ye shall recieve. Ask for the Holy Spirit (the counselor) to help you, do you realize that while your going through a rough time, it may seem like he left you behind, but think about this footsteps in the sand, a guy saw two sets of footsteps in the sand one was the LORD'S and the other was the guy's well eventually he only saw one set of footsteps in the sand, and he asked the LORD why he would leave him during his hard time. The LORD said he didn't leave him, but that he was carrying that person!!!!

Give God another chance, cry out to him.
Remember ask and ye shall recieve
Look in your heart, for a answer see what happens.

Seek counsil from other brothers and sisters in Christ. (Other Christians).

Brian Heibert said...

God loves all of you!!
Try to listen to that soft-still voice full of Love
waiting for you to turn back to him

I pray for all your souls that you come back to God and redeciate yourselfs to him.

stronger now said...

Brian Heibert:
"God is always there."

Prove it.

" It may seem like he isn't there, that he doesn't care. But he is there, and does care."

Got any credible evidence?

" Try crying out to him, ask him to help you, ask for his presence,
and he will come."

I did all that and got nothing.

"Ask and ye shall recieve. Ask for the Holy Spirit (the counselor) to help you,..."

Did that, didn't get squat.

"... do you realize that while your going through a rough time, it may seem like he left you behind, but think about this footsteps in the sand, a guy saw two sets of footsteps in the sand one was the LORD'S and the other was the guy's well eventually he only saw one set of footsteps in the sand, and he asked the LORD why he would leave him during his hard time. The LORD said he didn't leave him, but that he was carrying that person!!!!"

Did this really happen? No? Are you just useing fiction to make an emotional plea?

"Give God another chance, cry out to him.
Remember ask and ye shall recieve
Look in your heart, for a answer see what happens."

Nothing. Oh wait! I farted! It surely must be a sign from jebus! On second thought...No.


"Seek counsil from other brothers and sisters in Christ. (Other Christians)."

Why? Can they help me with my flatulence?



(ok. childish I know but I gotta have some fun every now an then?)

boomSLANG said...

Brian Heibert, latest guest Christian, stumbles in and says:

God is always there. It may seem li (CUT!!!!)[insert apologetic that we've heard a BAZILLION times]

You know what, Brian? I'm not even going to put one ounce of effort into understanding your position, until/unless you make it clear that you will attempt to understand OUR position(s). 'Anything about that sound unfair to you? If you come back, do me a favor and don't open your mouth(don't type) until you've read a dozen or so testimonies. Fair enough? Yes? Thanks.

Here's something else to bear in mind. It's called "Occams Razor". You said, "it may seem like... blah, blah, blah, yada, yada". Well, in short, "Occam's Razor" is a principle that says that 9.99999 times out of 10 the way something "seems" is the way that it IS---in this case, the reality of a "God" not being there. It isn't until you start piling on a bunch of emotionally charged "wishes", "hunches" and "ass-umptions" that you end up with non-verifiable bullshit. Stick it in your memory bank and click "save", m'kay handsome?

Astreja said...

Brian, My Dad is "always there", too, somewhere in the back of My oft-crazed imagination.

And I like to think that dear ol' Dad looks favourably upon this particular Valkyrie kidlet.

And you know what? I've gotten much better advice from the Havamál than I ever got from the Bible.

Such as this gem, which would surely have benefited you, had you known it before you came stomping in here:

The man who stands at a strange threshold
Should be cautious before he cross it
Glance this way and that
Who knows beforehand what foes may sit
Awaiting him in the hall?

Anonymous said...

looking for are in the book where was god when i needed him most by barron pilgrim on the internet. see www.barronpilgrim.com.

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