Help, My Husband Thinks I'm the Devil's Puppet
Sent in by Kelli
Hi, I'm a 29-year-old, happy agnostic. My struggle with the faith began about two years ago. Up until then I was insanely devout. I had accepted the fact that most of the people I love will probably spend eternity in hell and tried not to think about it except when I was busy blaming myself for not being able to convince them of God's saving truth. I read my Bible, sometimes for hours a day. I prayed, for around an hour every day and still it was never enough. If I woke in the middle of the night, it was because God wanted me to pray more, and so I did. My husband and I were "equally yoked," and spent many hours discussing God's purpose for our lives and our terrible failure to live up to His standards of purity and devotion.
Yet despite all this, the truth somehow got to me. Around two years ago I began to have doubts which felt like moments of clarity — moments where the fog of self brainwashing lifted and I saw reality — moments where I perceived Christianity to be just like all the other false belief systems and superstitions. I quickly apologized to God whenever this happened and begged His forgiveness. I began fasting and decided to read the Bible strait through to try and fight the satanic attack against my faith. Of course, you all know what happened next. Every day there was something else in the Bible I had to ignore to keep believing in God. I was a living paradox. Part of me knew I was really alone when I prayed and what a foolish waste of precious time it was to talk to myself for an hour a day, repeating the same prayer I said yesterday and the day before and the day before. This other part grew in "faith" until I was almost ready to raise the dead. (Or just make a real spectacle of myself at a funeral.)
Then last year my cousin actually died. (Don't worry, I didn't try to raise him.) He was a non-believer. At first I cried for him, believing him to be in hell. People tried to say he could have asked Jesus into his heart in those last moments before his death. Isn't it convenient that you can do that? You can just assume all the non-believers who you love actually did accept Christ at the last second, and then you don't have to face the actual scary, cruel teachings of your religion.
So there was an internal struggle between someone I'd actually known and loved and the imaginary being I thought I knew and loved. I felt it was a test. The ultimate test. I had to accept God's divine wisdom and goodness for sending my unbelieving relative to hell just because he didn't believe. I turned to the Bible for comfort but for the first time I couldn't just bury all the disturbing things I saw there. Even the good parts were disturbing. For example the Bible says we're going to spend all of eternity singing praises to god. Just standing there singing praises to God is not my idea of a happy eternity. It's just better than hell, right? And what kind of being creates other beings just to do that? And how could the same being who created other beings to worship Him for all eternity have to create me with the internal logic that makes that seem crazy?
I could go on forever but the real reason I wrote this is actually to ask for some advice. My husband can't accept my loss of faith. He can't accept it because it's messing with his faith. I'm happy, I'm agnostic, I'm still a good person. This is all too much for him. He says seeing what's happened to me and hearing all my arguments against the Bible is bringing his faith down. I say we just shouldn't talk about it anymore but then he puffs his chest out like a rooster and says he will not remain quiet about his God in his home. I try not to laugh.
He can't believe I don't realize that the Devil is using me to bring down his faith. He says that the Devil uses women to get to men, as in Eve with the apple and Solomons wives. He said the very fact that I'm so good to him and have always been such a good person is what will make it the ultimate trick when he goes to hell because of me.
I'm trying to be patient because I know he's brainwashed. It's amazing how I can show him out right contradictions in the Bible and he'll twist them to try and make sense. What's worse is when he's doing it and I'm seeing myself two years ago doing the same thing.
He has two arguments that I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with. One is if they didn't actually see Jesus resurrected then why did they martyr themselves for their faith. I'm not entirely sure where he's getting his facts from but he's sure all the original disciples died for refusing to deny Christ and can't see why they would if they hadn't seen him resurrected. Does anyone know anything about this? The other question he posed has to do with prophesies. He says Jesus fulfilled all these Biblical prophesies and that's one of the reasons he can't stop believing. Can anyone give me any ideas of where to go in my research to come up with answers to these challenges?
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Hi, I'm a 29-year-old, happy agnostic. My struggle with the faith began about two years ago. Up until then I was insanely devout. I had accepted the fact that most of the people I love will probably spend eternity in hell and tried not to think about it except when I was busy blaming myself for not being able to convince them of God's saving truth. I read my Bible, sometimes for hours a day. I prayed, for around an hour every day and still it was never enough. If I woke in the middle of the night, it was because God wanted me to pray more, and so I did. My husband and I were "equally yoked," and spent many hours discussing God's purpose for our lives and our terrible failure to live up to His standards of purity and devotion.
Yet despite all this, the truth somehow got to me. Around two years ago I began to have doubts which felt like moments of clarity — moments where the fog of self brainwashing lifted and I saw reality — moments where I perceived Christianity to be just like all the other false belief systems and superstitions. I quickly apologized to God whenever this happened and begged His forgiveness. I began fasting and decided to read the Bible strait through to try and fight the satanic attack against my faith. Of course, you all know what happened next. Every day there was something else in the Bible I had to ignore to keep believing in God. I was a living paradox. Part of me knew I was really alone when I prayed and what a foolish waste of precious time it was to talk to myself for an hour a day, repeating the same prayer I said yesterday and the day before and the day before. This other part grew in "faith" until I was almost ready to raise the dead. (Or just make a real spectacle of myself at a funeral.)
Then last year my cousin actually died. (Don't worry, I didn't try to raise him.) He was a non-believer. At first I cried for him, believing him to be in hell. People tried to say he could have asked Jesus into his heart in those last moments before his death. Isn't it convenient that you can do that? You can just assume all the non-believers who you love actually did accept Christ at the last second, and then you don't have to face the actual scary, cruel teachings of your religion.
So there was an internal struggle between someone I'd actually known and loved and the imaginary being I thought I knew and loved. I felt it was a test. The ultimate test. I had to accept God's divine wisdom and goodness for sending my unbelieving relative to hell just because he didn't believe. I turned to the Bible for comfort but for the first time I couldn't just bury all the disturbing things I saw there. Even the good parts were disturbing. For example the Bible says we're going to spend all of eternity singing praises to god. Just standing there singing praises to God is not my idea of a happy eternity. It's just better than hell, right? And what kind of being creates other beings just to do that? And how could the same being who created other beings to worship Him for all eternity have to create me with the internal logic that makes that seem crazy?
I could go on forever but the real reason I wrote this is actually to ask for some advice. My husband can't accept my loss of faith. He can't accept it because it's messing with his faith. I'm happy, I'm agnostic, I'm still a good person. This is all too much for him. He says seeing what's happened to me and hearing all my arguments against the Bible is bringing his faith down. I say we just shouldn't talk about it anymore but then he puffs his chest out like a rooster and says he will not remain quiet about his God in his home. I try not to laugh.
He can't believe I don't realize that the Devil is using me to bring down his faith. He says that the Devil uses women to get to men, as in Eve with the apple and Solomons wives. He said the very fact that I'm so good to him and have always been such a good person is what will make it the ultimate trick when he goes to hell because of me.
I'm trying to be patient because I know he's brainwashed. It's amazing how I can show him out right contradictions in the Bible and he'll twist them to try and make sense. What's worse is when he's doing it and I'm seeing myself two years ago doing the same thing.
He has two arguments that I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with. One is if they didn't actually see Jesus resurrected then why did they martyr themselves for their faith. I'm not entirely sure where he's getting his facts from but he's sure all the original disciples died for refusing to deny Christ and can't see why they would if they hadn't seen him resurrected. Does anyone know anything about this? The other question he posed has to do with prophesies. He says Jesus fulfilled all these Biblical prophesies and that's one of the reasons he can't stop believing. Can anyone give me any ideas of where to go in my research to come up with answers to these challenges?
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Comments
If you have any specific questions from your research, just ask and a lot of us will respond. I wish you luck and my support, as I know everybody here will do as well.
Wow, you have my and so many others' support. Try to keep in mind that you don't want to live a lie in your marriage, so hold your ground as you feel it and continue to be honest with your husband. And seek out others who feel the same way. You don't have to be angry or cynical, but you also don't have to believe fairy tales anymore. Being honest has a lot of power, and that will carry you through a lot of difficult times (with your husband and extended family..). This site is a great resource, but seek out people who are not dependent on church for their world views. It's a larger and kinder world, actually, without a church. Good wishes to you.
I honestly can't answer your question because I fell that the Bible is such a plethora of fairy tales and myths that have been re-written and re-interpreted so many times that there mya or may not be any truth to them! But there are a couple of sites that I have discovered, that explains the allegory of the Christ myth. http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/index.htm
This guy gives the entire astrological-allegorical, Christian story. It is really neat! Maybe you can convince your husband to read it. Also there are some excellent books on the subject. "Jesus Christ, Sun of God", "The world's 16 Crucified Saviors", "The Book Your Church doesn't Want You to Read" etc.
Once you understand the allegorical aspects of the Bible stories you can explain them to others. That is how I educated my husband and children. My husband was a Shi-ite Catholic for a while. My kids and I called him "Father Wayne". I was able to effectively de-program him by teaching him the symbolism behind the stories. This facinated him AND my children! Now my children think they are privy to some deep, dark secret that others are too brainwashed to see! They feel superior now!
I love this site and hope you will too! Keep in mind that a lot of people express some serious anger and hostility against religion on this site and it can be rather hard to swallow, for some. But some of us, myself included, had to go through that anger stage in order to move on to a more peaceful, spiritual state of mind. That anger stems from MANY YEARS of wasted time and effort for a LIE! Also many of us fee that our childhood and maybe most of our lives were lost because of religion. It can really piss a person off when they wake up from their lifelong coma and find out they have been deceived on dame near EVERY LEVEL of their lives! I think that might be why so many people are in denial about their religion! I think that deep down a lot of people know that it is a crock, but they are afraid to face it. You are very brave to deal with it as well as you have! I am afraid I was one of the angry ones! I ranted and raved on for about 3 years! I even built and anti-religion MySpace page complete with blasphemous pics of the Christ! I just could not tolerate the idea of wasting one more moment of my life dealing that controlling religion! I alienated a LOT of my friends and family members in the process!
Feel free to get your anger out here, among friends who understand and feel your pain! Or, just drop by and let us know how your Unequally yoked life is coming along! We can laugh with you and cry with you!
Eris
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/index.htm
Eris
religion/index.htm
"....Jesus fulfilled all these Biblical prophesies..."
If I write a book and in the first part of the book, I make "predictions" of the future, or more accurately, of what will happen at the end of the book, then in the last part of book, write of events fulfilling the prophecies, does that make the book true? Or even parts of it? ? No. The fact that the book is the bible changes nothing. To believe otherwise is to “assume” truth of what you are reading. By your testimony, it sounds like you have stopped assuming and started seeking (always a good step!). Your husband still assumes the bible is true, that these prophecies were actually made, not made up, that Jesus did indeed exist and that he did all of the things mentioned. A friend of mine once said that once you accept the validity of a supreme being then everything in the bible logically falls into place. All theological arguments, regardless of content and without exception, are based on that precept, the one that says “God exists, therefore…..”.
The bible is really a collection of some of the stories that were circulating at the time the bible was written. Some of these stories were about the same subject matter and even then, they did not agree with each other. This is probably the single biggest reason for the writing of the bible in the first place. They needed to codify the writings, to publish “one truth”. The powers-that-be could ill afford to have all those different versions running around, so they wrote this book called the bible and shortly thereafter, any voice that was different was silenced by threat of torture and death or by actual torture and death.
Also, there is not one story contained therein, about Jesus, that was written in his time nor did any of the authors even meet the man. There are claims for such works separate from the bible, offered as independent corroboration, but when you check the sources cited, you would find that they do not support the theological conclusions. As Dr. Sagan once said (paraphrased) “There are stories of such things, but never the things themselves”.
In addition the bible has been edited from the original stories. For example, the original stories never claimed that Jesus was born of a virgin but of an “alma”, which is the original Hebrew word for “young woman”. There is no implication of virginity. The bible also contradicts itself, almost every page. In your research you will find hundreds, yes, hundreds of such examples. Theologians usually don’t mention such things unless confronted, and then they either dismiss such as a “misinterpretation of scripture” or deny it all together. They fail to realize that by not mentioning such discrepancies in the first place, they are guilty of lying by omission.
Jesus is a most likely a made up person and it will interest you to know that the makers heavily plagiarized another “deity” for their subject, one who would not have been known by the populace of the day. Read “The Ways Of An Atheist” by Bernard Katz. In particular read the chapter entitled “Guess Who”. You will find that the life of Jesus was not his own. (I apologize to readers and posters of this forum. In an earlier post of mine I attributed this to the wrong book. Sorry!) If you do not have or cannot easily get the book let me know and I will be happy to type and email you the chapter. It might take a few days at my typing speed of 2.5 wpm. :) I would do this for posting on this site in order to expand the knowledge of the readers, but I do not know about the legalities involved.
I am sorry for the difficulties that your marriage is enduring and I hope that things will be better for you and your husband soon. I also hope, rather I am sure that the other posters of this site will offer their insights and assistance, in their own way. I wish that I could say that the path you have chosen is an easy one, but I know better as I have been an atheist for almost 40 years now and am still learning and defining myself, but that is a good thing.
Be strong! The rewards are far greater than imagined by the pious!
As far as your 2 questions. The first question he asked is a false presumption. He is assuming that the "disciples" existed in the first place. But, it is christian propoganda to the highness of hypocrisy. The "martyr" stories of the disciples were concocted by early church fathers as a way to offer the same kind of "proof" for their faith like the Shroud of Turin and the "wood" from the cross. It's amazing how the same disciple could be martyred in at least 2 or more different locations on earth according to varying christian apologists. Also, even if they did exist and die as martyrs, that is no more evidence for the resurrection of Jesus as when muslim terrorists blow themselves up for their faith.
As to your second question, regarding the "prophecies" Jesus supposedly fulfilled; it is very easy to write a story with characters and make them do and say whatever you want. Jesus and his 12 disciples are no exception. The authors of the gospels who pushed the "prophecies" aspect of the Jesus story could get away with it since most of the believers were non-jews who didn't know the jewish scriptures. The reason jews have rejected christianity for the most part has been its failure to prove Jesus fulfilled the actual prophecies, since they actually KNOW the prophecies in question. Jack van Impe is a prophecy teacher on TV who is known for memorizing the bible. He has millions of followers. He does the same thing the authors of the gospels did. He scans through newspapers to find headlines and then scans through the bible to find "prophecies" about said event. When one draws a conclusion about something prior to independent verification for it (the conclusion comes from being told something is true rather than independently discovering it), one can make anything seem true. The authors of the gospels said Jesus fulfilled certain prophecies, and to the christian, they end up reading the old testament prophecies as if it was true. There is no way a person can honestly read the prophecies attributed to Jesus fulfilling and come to the independent conclusion that Jesus did fulfill them.
Notice you will never find a plain, clear prophecy, but something too vague to be specific, not a prophecy at all, a past event, or already fulfilled according to the bible.
The best way to compare this is that the way christians see mormons (adding new revelation and contrary doctrines to christianity) is how jews viewed christianity.
Hope this helps,
Matt
I'm a fellow unequally-joked unbeliever. My situation is a bit different in that my husband has always been a lukewarm Christian. I was the zealot.
Anyway. In regards to your husband, I say just hunch down and let the wind blow. It will pass. One way or another the situation will go away. Either you separate or he de-converts or gets used to it.
For now, you just need to hang in there. Even if he wants to argue with you, don't let him drag you into it. Stay quiet. Arguing will take you no were. It will just give you an ulcer.
As for your questions, they are difficult to answer for people like me, who believe the Bible is fiction. So, why start arguing about this being true and that being false, when the stories are just the creation of someone's great imagination?
The disciples gave their life for Jesus? Says who? The Bible? Nobody has been able to prove that the disciples actually existed.
As for the prophesies, It is all after-the-fact reasoning. Writers accommodating circumstances to fit the story they were writing. All fiction.
Anyway, thank you for writing your story so wonderfully. Take care!
To the question of why the disciples would be martyred, I asked why a Muslim extremist would strap bombs to his body and blow himself up if what he believed wasn't true. If the disciples didn't exist, then the question is irrelevant. If they did exist, and if they were martyred, then we can believe that they were sincere in their belief...but that doesn't make it any truer than the suicide-bombers belief, does it? In fact, I would suggest you'd have to have a lot stronger belief to press the martyr button yourself rather than have someone do it against your will.
As for the prophecies start here: http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/prophetic-passages.html
Or here:
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/cgi-bin/webring/list.pl?ringid=bible_errancy;siteid=errancy27
Good luck. I know how you feel.
It seems like you will definetely have some challenges ahead of you as you struggle to reconcile your beliefs with your husband. I can imagine you are going through quite a bit more difficulty than you described in your story, not just with your husband but perhaps also with your extended family assuming many of them are Christian as well. From what you wrote, you seem to be happy like you said and at peace with yourself. Despite your husband 's belief that the devil is using you as an instrument to ensnare him, being happy and at peace can only help you in this situation. Diehard Christians tend to like playing the morality card. If you can show that giving up your once-cherished beliefs has not made you a bad person, he may be more likely to see things your way given enough time.
I guess I don't really have answers to the seemingly valid questions posed by your husband. I think some other people who posted may have some good ideas. I would try to find about other instances where others of different faiths have been martyred for their beliefs (not counting active martyrdoms such as extremist Muslim suicide bombings, etc.).
I think it is a good idea to ask your husband some questions too. Something else I've been pondering lately.. the origins of the devil. Thomas Paine brings up some interesting points concerning the devil I had not thought of before in The Age of Reason (I recommend it if you haven't read it before). I believe that Christian tradition holds that before the Fall, the devil had been Lucifer, one of god's angels. He had free will like the other angels and we are told that he was prideful and decided to turn against god, leading to his being cast out of heaven and into hell. How is it that this former being of limited existence and power suddenly becomes omnipresent and obtains a power nearly on par with that of the being that created the universe and everything in it? How is it that this devil now has the power to influence literally everyone on Earth? The question is rhetorical and provides its own answer merely by being posed.
Anyway, I wish you luck as you continue to think for yourself.
Also, you made me think about how women get a bad rap in the Bible... Delilah is another temptress you didn't mention. Most of the time, us girls are portrayed in the Bible as prostitutes, temptresses, or wives without any personality of their own. Sad!
I am interested in the chapter "Guess Who".
If it's OK with you [take your time to type if you do not have a scanner with appropriate software]please send it to me via email:
rwookc@singnet.com.sg
Tks
http://agards-bible-timeline.com/q6_apostles_die.html
Additionally, Muslims kill themselves in suicide bombings for Islam, too. I once read an interview with one of the survivors of David Koresh's cult. This guy left the group just before Waco, but now he believes that David Koresh was God, and that he missed his chance to go to heaven. I can't help but think that he would be willing to martyr himself for David Koresh - and this from a guy who knew Koresh.
As far as Biblical prophecies, I've been meaning to look into these in more detail. I remember looking at them in the past and finding them very shakey. Psalms passages are sometimes cited as "prophecy" about Jesus, but they're often carefully quote mined to make it appear as if it described Jesus crucifixion. For example, Psalm 22 is sometimes cited as a fulfilled prophecy. Here's what it says:
"Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet." (Psalms 22:16)
"They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." (Psalms 22:18)
Both of these sound like they might be talking about Jesus crucifixion. The New Testament talks about guards dividing Jesus clothing (although that detail was probably never actually observed by eyewitnesses, and may have been a common occurrence, coincidence, or a detail inserted by New Testament authors because the Psalms suggested the idea). But, the problem is that Christians often ignore the surrounding verses - why don't they count these as "unfulfilled prophecies"?
"Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me." (Psalms 22:12)
"Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me." (Psalms 22:13)
"Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen." (Psalms 22:21)
Were there lions, wild oxen, and bulls threatening Jesus. No, of course not. Yet, these verses are skipped over, and other verses in the same passage are carefully plucked to be a fulfillment of prophecy. Further, Psalms 22 doesn't look *at all* like a prophecy about Jesus in the first place. Nowhere is there any indication that the passage is supposed to be interpreted as prophecy. What seems to have happened is that some people recognized certain parallels between the passage and the crucifixion, ignored other parts of the passage, and then declared it to be prophecy about Jesus.
Additionally, the New Testament says that Jesus was born of a virgin, and the NT authors point out that this was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy about the messiah. The problem is that the Old Testament translation that they had was off a little bit. The OT verse they cite was mistranslated as "born of a virgin" when the correct translation was merely "born of a young woman". NT authors pointed to a mistranslation as fulfillment of prophecy. This raises the question: was the virgin birth of Jesus made up to conform to a non-existent OT prophecy, or did NT authors merely assume the virgin birth was true because they read the OT "prophecy"?
More information on this:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/is714a.html
"Rejoice heartily, O daughter Zion, shout for joy, O daughter Jerusalem! See, your king shall come to you; a just savior is he, Meek, and riding on an ass, on a colt, the foal of an ass." (Zechariah 9:9)
They say in the NT that Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey. What I find interesting is the next verse (why isn't this considered part of the *unfulfilled* prophecy)?
"He shall banish the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; The warrior's bow shall be banished, and he shall proclaim peace to the nations. His dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth." (Zechariah 9:10)
Now that I can step back and look at the bible from a rational perspective I'm shocked by how women were treated and portrayed and how these false teachings still affect our modern society. What's appalling is that it was all written as it was by people who were specifically trying to keep one gender in a position of authority over another. As in "wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the lord," Ephesians 5:22. It's not just men that end up believing this is how it's suppose to be but women as well. I spent years wondering why god bothered to instill intelligence in me to think for myself if it's my job to obey my husband. And if I have to obey him shouldn't he always be right? But I'm off on a rant here. That's another subject altogether. I just wanted to say thank you all so much for responding.
Okay, I finished this and then read tinyfrogs comments. Those are great specific verses to start with and you make some undeniably valid points. Thanks so much for sharing those. I'll be very interested to hear what my husband thinks of them.
Kelli
I'm glad that you found the support that you were looking for, but I'd echo the messages that encourage you to look at waiting for your husband's reason to kick in as a long term proposition.
I imagine that in your time in the church you have heard some variant on the warning against arguing with the devil, "because he's been doing this a lot longer than you have." That's one of the ways the church inoculates believers against competing truths. It lets the believer simply conclude that the better the argument against the church's beliefs, the closer the author of that argument must be to the devil. The church has had 1,800 years of practice in reigning in doubters. Your account makes it clear that you've encountered and overcome their methods.
I'd encourage you to pace yourself and not expect to find a silver bullet argument. It's impossible to predict where your husband's golden moment of reason will come from. I hope you'll have the patience to wait for it.
As for this misognistic belief I say "Man-up and take responsibility for your own weaknesses".
Christianity, Judaism and Islam (or the three stooges of Abraham) have to be recognized as archaic, barbaric and misognyistic belief systems that rely on guilt and fear to perpetuate themselves. They have nothing good to offer humanity, or any other living thing for that matter.
I think you have your work cut out for you Kelli, but I wish you the best.
Concerning biblical prophecies, the best source is still Thomas Paine's Examination of the Prophecies. Read it and have him read it.
I think I would document what is going on with him and seek help from the authorities. I would be really worried if there are children involved.
Every day, almost, you read about some one going over the edge because of religion gone bad.
Seriously you should get out of there.
But you didn't mention whether you love your husband, and obviously don't give a shit about his unhappiness.
He's probably better off without you.
Ah, now I know why people sometimes resort to name calling here...because the first thing that came to mind was "What kind of stupid ass are you to say something so idiotic".
Just because she disagrees with her husband doesn't mean she doesn't care that he is unhappy. Just because she doesn't change her beliefs back to what he thinks they should be doesn't mean she doesn't care.
Honestly, I can see how people get sick of this shit so quickly.
Kelli, don't even listen to this guy...his head is in too much of a fog (clearly) to worry about.
I never mentioned that I love my husband because I thought it would be implied that to stay with a man who believes I'm a tool of satan I must love him very much.
For years he's had a panic dissorder because he's convinced for no rational reason that he could die and go to hell at any moment. I know there are plenty of Christians who could identify with this problem. I would love to see him free.
has got to be one of the most arrogant and cold-blooded responses I've ever seen on this
website. Here's a woman who has
seen through the organized farce that is religion, and is becoming aware of Christianity's miserable
treatment of women through the ages. But I'm sure most of us are
hoping she and her husband can work this out together. I guess
Jason is one of those fundie men
who feel threatened whenever a woman shows she is intelligent and
able to think for herself.
Kelli, if you want to show your husband just how the Bible treats
women, have him read Annie Laurie
Gaynor's Book "Woe to the Women:
The Bible Tells Me So". It might be a real mind-opener for him.
Best wishes to both of you!
Dan
Kelli,
My wife and I were lukewarm church goers when until I did a little research and all my beliefs in God/Religion came unraveled like a poorly knitted sweater. Thankfully my lovely wife is very accepting of my atheism yet will never give up her little fantasy that the invisible man does exist in one form or another. She can never fully accept Christianity because SHE is the head of the household, and I do what she tells me. I do often fatasize what I would be like to have a nice little submissive wife. I guess I could be fun :D
I had one dear Christian tell me the reason I now don't believe is because Satan has me tightly in his grips. That kind of stuff is pure comedy gold.
Of couse we must address the question of how one could possibly be happy in heaven if someone they love is in hell. And could you see bowing down to God and kissing his feet 10 billion years from now? When this life is over, I will look forward to the rest.
xayman
I urge you to go pull that broomstick out of your ass before you post here again.
Ah, the love of Christ as expressed by "True Christians™." Isn't it beautiful?
Jason probably just wants your husband all to himself.
"Kiss my ass, bitch.
I had a wife like this bitch.
She thought she could fuck anybody she wanted cause we all just evolved and it was natural.
I too lost my faith.
But I still hate the bitch."
We need to lose this hate mongering clown. I don't mind the occasional fundie for a great debate or LOL humor but this idiot does not belong here.
Kelli don't let him get to you. He is the cowardly school ground bully who is looking for a response so he can keep pushing for the sheer fun of it. He can't feel positive about himself unless he makes someone else feel negative. It is unfortunate that you are his target.
You're a troll. All your posts will be forthwith deleted.
Goodbye.
Christian, er, "prophecy" from the book of Isaiah:
The virgin will give birth to a son and name him Emmanuel.
Biblical Hebrew:
The YOUNG WOMAN is GIVING birth (present tense!) and naming him Emmanuel.
Quite a difference, eh?
Oh, even the first sentence of the Bible has a different connotation in the original language. You have the passive, over-arching English "In the beginning ___" vs. the much more active Hebrew "In beginning ___". The Hebrew dumps you right there in the middle of the action; but note it *is* quite possible to express the English-style connotation in Biblical Hebrew.
Yes, that "literal word of God" idea is holding up *really* well. I mean, if they can't even get the first sentence right....
Well, good wishes to you.
And there are other traditions about Paul Bunyan that are quite fascinating, too. There are tons of fables, er... traditions, about Zeus, Apollo, Athena, and a host of other characters out there. I guess if a story crops up a couple of hundred years after the person disappears from history, that makes it all true.
Let's see, Thomas died in India right? Hmm. His work didn't go far.
Clair
In reading the front of the book I have found that there are restrictions concerning the electronic transmission "in part or in whole" of any part of this book. As I at least try to be law abiding, though being an morals lacking atheist I should just say screw it, I will not copy and send it to you.
I will tell you that the chapter is a “fill in the blank”, with the appropriate deity’s name, in about 30 sentences, with the first sentence reading (words to the effect) "BLANK was born to a virgin named Mary" and the rest of them in that vein. Every single one of the sentences demand, or would seem to, the answer of Jesus. However, when one gets to the end of the two-page chapter, one finds out that the answer is Buddha! And further, Buddha lived 500 years before Christ! The parallels are just great to be coincidence, to use Christian apologetic reasoning, (GASP! Kill me now!). It was something of a surprise and a shock to read this, and I have never really been a practicing Christian. I admit that I filled in the blanks with the name of Jesus as I read, which was undoubtedly the intent of Sir Bernard Katz and when I reached the end of the chapter, what an eye-opener!
I have emailed the publisher, Prometheus Books, and asked for permission to reprint the chapter here in this forum for discussion and edification. Hopefully that will come through positively, so that we may all benefit from it. I would offer a “Reader’s Digest Condensed Version” but I would rather use Sir Bernard’s original wording, as I doubt that I could achieve his level of impact.
To Kelli:
Even though I am a new poster to this forum, I would point out that our moderator has deleted the last hate email of Jason, after many of us, no doubt including said moderator, took offense, and I offer it as proof that we take care of our own. As you continue to explore this site, you will find that some of us are somewhat rough around the edges, indulging in the occasional profanities and obscenities, but we do not use them for attack, as the ever-hateful Jason did. This does not apply when directed to people like Jason of course. You get what you pay for! I myself wanted to take him apart for his cynical, bigoted and sexist rant, but as you read further here you will see that there are posters here better qualified for such actions.
Please don’t despond! You and your thoughts, ideas, attitude and responses are VERY important and welcome here!
Really? Could you provide documentation of any kind to support that statement? Or is that just something you heard somewhere?
Let me know.
If you're really interested in learning something, rather than just parroting your preacher, check out this article by Richard Carrier: Resurrection Lecture.
There is nothing new under the sun so I guess we all puppet someone. For myself, I choose to puppet my pastors, parents, theology professor, etc etc.
A good book detailing the history of the apostles is
HISTORY OF THE
CHRISTIAN CHURCH
BY
PHILIP SCHAFF
Schaff, P., & Schaff, D. S. 1997.
Also Douglas, J. D., Comfort, P. W., & Mitchell, D. 1997, c1992. Who's who in Christian history. Tyndale House: Wheaton, Ill.
offer good resources. I am sure there others that I am missing. Thanks for the interest.
To the webmaster,
"There is nothing new under the sun so I guess we all puppet someone. For myself, I choose to puppet my pastors, parents, theology professor, etc etc."
Why would I "puppet someone"?! I am capable of thinking for myself!
My point is that if we our honest with ourselves... Our ideas have been shaped throughout our lives. And there are rarely any ideas that are uniquely original. And while we all think for ourselves, theists and non theists alike, the majority of ideas are a representation of past thoughts.
"
Yes Huey,
Likewise, I am not why my ideas are automatically designated as "puppeting" though. My idea is that... most of our thoughts, are truly not original."
Please redo your first sentence. Linguisticaly it makes no sense. However, to respond to your intent, I would have to say that with billions of people having existed, it would be highly unlikely that I would have an "original" thought. What is your point? Are you trying to say that because someone else has already had my thoughts that they are now invalid?
Just because I beleive something that was said before by someone else does not invalidate my thought process, rather it might tend to confirm it. But that might give fuel to your side of the argument.
Seriously Josh, truth is truth, no matter who speaks it.
I am not saying your or any ideas are invalid... just not original.. as mine are not. As u said.. with billions of people and exponentially more thoughts... originality is hard to come by.
"Yes Huey,
My point is that if we our honest with ourselves... Our ideas have been shaped throughout our lives. And there are rarely any ideas that are uniquely original. And while we all think for ourselves, theists and non theists alike, the majority of ideas are a representation of past thoughts."
So we have all stood on the shoulders on giants? Nooo!!!!!! Really!? Every advance, whether socially or technologically, has rested upon that axiom. You act there is something wrong with that! How can there be? It is how that human race advances!
I am not sure how we started to chase this rabbit but sorry for beginning the chase.
No there is nothing wrong with building upon our predecessors. Sorry if I gave that impression. I like you, pride myself on logic as one who thinks for himself.
Thanks for the discussion Huey
Good night to all
"Sorry, its late"
Go to bed Josh. I am going to as I am getting loopy myself. :)
Are atheists into gay bashing now along with fundies?
But we can't change the world overnight, and we probably can't change our habits overnight either. For example, how many people, after deconverting, have continued to say tiny habitual prayers? I know I have and still do (being only recently deconverted). As I say the prayer, it occurs to me that I'm probably only talking to myself...but I say it anyway. It takes awhile to break these habits.
Though I admit, the habit of thinking of gayness as an insult is more hurtful than the habit of saying tiny prayers, even if there is no one to pray to.
Truly,
Jamie.
HISTORY OF THE
CHRISTIAN CHURCH"
I own it and have read it.
Now, have you read anything that contradicts your "puppet masters?"
In fact, have YOU EVEN READ SCHAFF YOURSELF? Be honest. You haven't, have you? You're just throwing out shit so you can appear knowledgeable when in fact you are brainwashed drone for your religion. Be bold, find out what others have to say about your presuppositions. If what you have is "THE TRUTH," then surely everything you learn will only confirm what you already believe, right? And, you'll be able to argue intelligently, instead of quacking like a robotic duck.
When it comes to religion, it is all parroting. It is lock-step compliance. It is surrender of the mind. In the rest of life, we learn from others, true. But we go beyond what others have taught us, mold it, change it, advance it, or pervert it... but in all cases we put our mark upon the things we learn. Not so in religion: EVERYONE MUST CONFORM to the alpha leader of the particular denomination/religion/cult.
My point is, when a person only knows what his church teaches, and doesn't step outside the approved authors (or worse, doesn't even read the approved authors, just accepts them as authoritative without even reading them) to explore a subject, then that person is destined to considerable ignorance.
All religious cults strongly discourage reading things that contradict the cult. Why, if the cult possesses the truth, would the cult do that? Because when people start getting a wider view of things, their narrow programming breaks down. What if your religion is false, Josh? What if?
I sincerely and completely apologize if my former statement was in any way seen as derrogatory. It was not my intention at all.
I agree. This "tradition" was invented for much the same reason that the gospel writers twisted an earlier story about a "young woman" having a son named Emmanual into the story of Jesus's "virgin" birth - i.e., to fabricate a connection with something supposedly foretold in scripture.
Jesus is reported to have called Peter "the rock upon which I will build my church." (Petros=rock in Greek). Of course, that didn't happen as christianity was largely usurped by Paul.
Seems Jesus had trouble with keeping more than one promise.
Tks for the feedback.
Thanks,
Josh
It usually is easier to conform to dogma. Else you might change your beliefs and be hurt by the knowledge that your religion has lied to you. Conformity does give one a sense of safety. Safety from the reality of your own final demise. You don't have to see things for what they really are. You simply have to go along in lock-step with what your masters desire. You don't even have to think for youself, they will do it for you. How comforting.
Good. Can you list a few of the things you've read that contradict your Christian beliefs?
Josh: "I know most, if not everyone on this board has been deeply betrayed and hurt by their religions in the past..."
I've never been hurt or betrayed by Christianity. I calmly realized, at approximately the age of 8, that I had never been given a shred of credible evidence for it. Decades of research since then have also failed to turn up anything credible. Hence, I have no reason to believe the fantastic claims of Christianity.
Josh: "Also for me, It is easier (with my Christian world view) to put my faith and belief in a virgin birth than to believe other theories about Mary copying Hannah's song and story (as your world view) affirms."
I'm not sure whose world view you are speaking to here, but mine entails no specific belief about Mary. My own assessment is that she is very likely a literary invention, nothing more. Can you point to some concrete historical evidence for your existence, or for the existence of Jesus?
By the way, I have no idea what you're referring to with regard to Mary copying anything. Can you please clarify that point, and why you think some particular world view "affirms" this? Thanks.
Feel free to provide evidence for your existence too, if you wish, but it's not necessary.
fantastic claims + no credible evidence
Very simple.
This site for one,
Thomas Talbot "Universalism"
Daniel Dennet
Evan Fales
Are a few in the past months
I can tell you are a man of deep devotion to thought and logic and I admire you for that. I wish everyone would seek out with their own mind the things which are taught. I have not read anything by Price. I myself have searched the scriptures and arguments (although mostly for Christianity but some against)and have found my faith increased and not found it lacking. ( I guess the key word is "faith) I have come to the conclusion that there is no absolute proof for or against the existence of God. I affirm that creation testifies to God's glory, however, there are just as many if not more the see nature as proof of God's existence. But, as I references above, if there was absolute proof of God then any "reasonable man" would find God. So it is a matter of faith in many aspects yet I am not naive to the many objections against my beliefs.
Thanks for the response Jim.
Josh
I have heard him debate. That is the primary means of my knowlege of his thoughts. I have read some brief articles although I can not recall them to you. He is very much uninterested in suffering. Fales argues that suffering is evidence against the existence of God and that for him even if God existed he finds it honorable to damn himself to hell due to the immense suffering on the earth. (He said this during the Greer-Heard lectures at NOBTS in the spring of 2007)
By that you mean that he does not wish to experience suffering himself, as opposed to lacking motivation to think about it and discuss it, right? (two meanings of "uninterested")
Josh: "Fales argues that suffering is evidence against the existence of God..."
This is a common argument, but it's one I don't personally put a lot of stock in. In order for this argument to have any weight, you must first establish that (at least some) "suffering" is contrary to god's "wishes", which presupposes that you can say anything about god's "wishes" or "plans". In other words, you must restrict discourse to a god with particular characteristics. While I indulge this kind of thing myself occasionally, it's a bit too hypothetical for my taste.
By the way, I forgot to ask you this earlier. Who do you regard as the best Christian apologists? I like Plantinga, van Till, Swinburne, and J. P. Moreland. I find them to exhibit far greater intellectual honesty than run-of-the-mill apologists (such as Strobel, McDowell, Zacharias, etc.). I still disagree with them, of course, but I enjoy reading what they have to say. Who would you add to (or remove from) that list?
I do enjoy Alvin Plantinga from Notre Dame. My favorite apologist to listen to is Zacharias although his lectures have to be more generalized in nature than Plantinga's. I am assuming you are more interested in philosophy due to your interest in Plantinga. I will not be surprised to see Dr. Jeremy Evans publish some works in the coming years (He is my professor at New Orleans Seminary). I tend to be more predisposed to ethical studies rather than philosophical and like Stanley Hauerwas from Duke university also.
How do you know that? That isn't the reason I left Christianity.
There is a link at the top of every page that says "Testimonials." All the submitted testimonials are archived there.
I would like to congradulate you on one thing you've avioded, that drives so many of us nuts around here. You have not once quoted the Bible in discussing your stance.
It's the grandest of ironies when a Christian will quote scripture as if the atheist, although not believing in God, would believe the words of the Bible to be final word in truth.
I like your style very much Josh, but as others have said our main reason for our stance is education and reason, not a dissatisfaction with a particular church. And also we are not mad at God.
Have a great day and hopefully this site will show you the way. Just think how nice it would be to take that 10% and spend it all on pussy and beer :D Sorry Josh just kidding, but one of the greatest virtues of this site is the lack of language censorship.
I was censored, and had an entire thread (I started) removed in a recovery site(I'm a recovering drunk) because I simply stated I do not believe in a higher power.
And one more thing Josh, like Christians say about gays, we love the Christians we just hate Christianity.
xrayman
You know very little then. People usually become agnostics or atheists due to intellectual consideration of the available evidence, or lack of it for religion. The idea of people leaving religion beacuse they are hurt or angry at god in primarily a Christian conceit. I get tired of these born again types who, upon finding out that I am an atheist, ask me "why are you angry at god?". It is really an ill-considered opinion, based on the false belief that "since god exists, everybody MUST believe in him". An arrogant assumption really!
"It is really an ill-considered opinion, based on the false belief that "since god exists, everybody MUST believe in him". An arrogant assumption really!"
Amen Brother
And adding to your above mentioned statement they assume everyone must indeed believe in the words in the Bible also.
Josh said,
"To Bill, I probably should have used Scripture much more."
Josh no more scripture please !!!!!!! Reading quotes from the Bible kind of makes me want to run my head through a wall and I am sure I speak for more than a few. Quoting from a book of fairy tales doesn't yeild a whole lot of weight around these parts.
xrayman
I was more directing my comments that those who are "ex-Christian" are more miffed at religion and religious people. I was not intending to say that you as professing non-theists were angry at God more so than religion and the religious people. (although I profess I get aggravated at religion which is man made and religious people very much myself, as did Christ.)
On another note, I am confused, you guys as a whole do or do not want me to quote scripture? I hope you don't think my lack of quotes denotes a lack of knowledge, although I do not profess to know everything or even much, I am fairly well versed in the scriptures.
I am still trying to get my head around the quote below
" Josh,
I would like to congradulate you on one thing you've avioded, that drives so many of us nuts around here. You have not once quoted the Bible in discussing your stance."
So it drives you nuts that I did not scripture yet at the same time it makes you want to drive your head through a wall?
Thanks for the input,
Josh
I guess my statement could have been taken two ways now that I read it again. Let me make myself clear. The quoting of scripture drives us nuts. We are not impressed by it. Many come hear trying to prove their case for the existince of God by quoting Bible verse. Like saying the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says it's the word of God etc.
Not too long ago I invited some Mormon youth into my home and the first thing I asked them is: "Without quoting the Bible or The Book of Mormon, can you tell me why you think God is real?" I got the deer in the headlights stare for a moment, but the kid did finallly give a concrete example and that's what we want around here. Tell us about a magical experience you had with God, but don't quote the book of Luke.
Peace and Love to you Josh you are a good man.
xrayman
Yes that previous statement could be taken one of two ways and I guess I chose the other. Well let me now go and deliver a sermon entitled "the necessity of morality" within the church. I hope you guys have a glorious day.
Peace be with you.
Josh
PS. If anything, this site has affirmed my hypocrisy between faith and deeds among the church.
I am glad you are a “happy agnostic”! I wish you and your husband well in your respective searches for truth and wisdom.
Farrell Till is a former Christian preacher and bible college (Harding University) professor who, for many years now, debunks Christianity in an intellectually rigorous manner. He wrote an article about Biblical prophecies. Here is the link.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
"...the real reason I wrote this is actually to ask for some advice. My husband can't accept my loss of faith. He can't accept it because..." etc.
Well then, I guess he'll just have to try a little harder, won't he?
We only get to be one person per lifetime, and in this one you get to be (and have to be) Kelli. With hubby getting on your case, we've got a situation of two people both trying to be Kelli, leaving no-one to be him.
The upside (though it probably wouldn't hurt to point it out to him anyhow) is that he can't afford to kill you while you're still apostate, as he'd be sending you (and, therefore, himself) to hell. I'd be more nervous about ever telling him that I've re-converted, if I were you, because that might be his cue to carpe diem while you're temporarily in a position to still go to heaven instead...
As for the apostles, they either existed or they didn't. If they didn't exist, they weren't well-placed to be martyred, were they? And if they did exist, what of it? People give up their lives for all sorts of stuff. Two different guys will sacrifice themselves for opposite sides of the same question. Why was Hypatia martyred?
Forget about hubby's questions. Not only does he not have the right answers, he doesn't even have the right questions. The thing to do is to look at the process by which the "bible" was cobbled together in the first place. Once you see how these "scriptures" got chosen, and then ossified, it's more than apparent that they're not quote-worthy to begin with.
(Momentary rant coming up, no longer addressed to Kelli...) Y'know what I wish? I wish that someone would take that prick Hank Hennagraaf down a peg or two. Smug little patriarchal puke. (This would be yer "Bible AnswerMan", for those of you who don't know who I'm talking about. Guy's got some Xtian radio show, where he gets to be everybody, questioner, answerer, and tape-editor all in one.) I'd like to see what he can summon up in the way of one-on-one intestinal fortitude against someone his own size. Like that's ever going to happen.
"For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit;
they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6; Good News Translation)
OR
Jesus said, "I assure you that those who declare publicly that they belong to me, the Son of Man will do the same for them before the angels of God.
But those who reject me publicly, the Son of Man will also reject them before the angels of God.
"Whoever says a word against the Son of Man can be forgiven; but whoever says evil things against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
(Luke 12:8-10)
--------------------
If you still have some nugget of faith in your heart:
Jesus went on to say, "There was once a man who had two sons.
The younger one said to him, 'Father, give me my share of the property now.' So the man divided his property between his two sons.
After a few days the younger son sold his part of the property and left home with the money. He went to a country far away, where he wasted his money in reckless living.
He spent everything he had. Then a severe famine spread over that country, and he was left without a thing.
So he went to work for one of the citizens of that country, who sent him out to his farm to take care of the pigs.
He wished he could fill himself with the bean pods the pigs ate, but no one gave him anything to eat.
At last he came to his senses and said, 'All my father's hired workers have more than they can eat, and here I am about to starve!
I will get up and go to my father and say, "Father, I have sinned against God and against you.
I am no longer fit to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired workers." '
So he got up and started back to his father. "He was still a long way from home when his father saw him; his heart was filled with pity, and he ran, threw his arms around his son, and kissed him.
'Father,' the son said, 'I have sinned against God and against you. I am no longer fit to be called your son.'
But the father called to his servants. 'Hurry!' he said. 'Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet.
Then go and get the prize calf and kill it, and let us celebrate with a feast!
For this son of mine was dead, but now he is alive; he was lost, but now he has been found.' And so the feasting began.
(Luke 15:11-24)
Why sould we worry about anything that's a myth? It would be like worrying that the Jolly Green Giant seeing me not eating his peas.
Here is something for you from the bible...in the beginning there was Adam and Eve..
Cut a long story short Cain killed Abel.
Cain was banished to the land of Nod..(chuckle).there he found himself a wife...must have been a relative..
Now if incest breeds insanity.does that mean the world as in everyone in it is insane ..
Or are we just confused...like you :-)
Love & light see the future