I AM AN ATHEIST BECAUSE...

Sent in by Richard L

I find no evidence of an omnipotent omniscient deity participating in my life or anyone else's. I find no evidence of a deity intervening in history. Natural disasters, diseases and famines (events over which humans have no control kill people regardless of their faith or philosophy.

The burden of proof rests with believers to show their God is real. If faith is your only evidence, than you can't expect those who trust empirical evidence to share your belief.

Creationism is a futile attempt to reconcile the Bible with science. Proponents peruse scientific literature for disagreements about evolution, between scientists who agree that the Earth is billions of years old and the human species a member of the primate genus. Creationists refer to statements in the Bible that they believe reveals something that science “rediscovered” centuries later, but their examples are easy to debunk by a knowledgeable skeptic. The Bible cannot coexist with science in a rational mind.

I see no evidence today or in history of miraculous signs. They would violate physics and therefore can’t be expected to be real. Jesus promised his disciples they would be able to do such miraculous signs (even ones greater than he performed). I know of no missionaries today who have healed the blind and deaf, or the lame or those infected with HIV or Ebola. The black plague spread across Europe killing millions of Christians. Why couldn’t the “saints” of that day stop this scourge? The answer is a simple one: such acts never occurred because they are impossible.

The power of prayer to heal illnesses is due to the power of positive thinking.

I walked away from alcohol and prescription medication abuse at just the time I was strengthening my conviction as an atheist. I had just be laid off, but found a good job two weeks later. I was an “atheist in a foxhole” and got out without Jesus. It took great will power, but I did on my own. That’s how I lead my life today. I live my life focusing on what is real and on things I can control, without relying on faith. We all have "day to day" faith in things, but the FAITH of religion to me overstates its usefulness.

I find Heaven, Hell and the Biblical God to be human inventions. This deity has all the characteristics of an iron fisted tyrant who shows mercy to his followers and is vengeful toward those who defy him. I suggest the same for Zeus, Osiris, Allah, Vishnu and other deities throughout history.

126 comments:

Rich said...

Richard,
Reading your post made me realize that as a lifelong atheist I don't know what it is like to lean on a supernatural agent for support when things go bad. Having always just relied on myself when making life choices I can testify that sometimes it does get scary knowing that you only have yourself to blame if things go awry. But, are we not all really alone in this life? I think my way is better because I am stronger and more resilient than I would be otherwise. I am now 68 years old.

Jamie said...

was an “atheist in a foxhole” and got out without Jesus. It took great will power, but I did on my own.

Your life went well after you became an atheist because Satan already had you then. He didn't need to torment you anymore because you were his.

I am kidding. But seriously, I have seen this kind of reasoning in churches. If everything is going well, and you are a church-person, it is because you are God-fearing that everything is working out. If everything is going well and you are an atheist, it's because Satan has no need to torment you.

I don't make the rules, I just report 'em ;-) !

AA said...

Jamie, so true. I was taught the same thing. and I Know that what they think when I've told them that I was an atheist, and yet my life seems somehow better. Like the long time atheists say here; I rely on myself to make my life and the lives of my family better.

I guess I'm the devil.
Better to be in hell with the great thinkers of today and yesterday than in heaven with a tyrant?
Doesn't matter....no such thing anyway.

Bill said...

Hey Richard,
Great post. I walked away from the worst alcohol problem one could have 16 years ago. I did it all without the "Higher Power." When I hit rock bottom from my drinking I did get down on my knees and beg Jesus to come into my life, but that son of a gun must have been on vacation that night because I just didn't have the religious experience so many addicts claim. Perhaps my subconscious mind knew he didn't exist. It is kind of scary at times knowing we are on our own, yet it's worth the many trade offs we get for not believing in the big fairy tale.

xrayman

Telmi said...

Richard,

Congrats for jettisoning myth from your life and sticking to reality.

Any religion that espouses the existence of a 3O God, as several authors have pointed out, is a pack of lies, and as an atheist I fully concur with them.

Derrick said...

Richard, what you say is so true and I'm still amazed at how people can operate in their own little fantasy world. Incredible.

You said "We all have "day to day" faith in things..."

Well this is the only thing to which I must disagree because faith to me is invariably a religious term - "to believe without reason". I have no faith and all my beliefs are based on experience, knowledge, and at the very least, educated guesses. I believe the sun will set in the West, I believe the Ottawa Senators will make the playoffs, and I believe my kids will give me a few more grey hairs.

Cheers, Derrick.

Brandon said...

Richard,

Saying there is no evidence that God exists is like saying there is no such thing as a headache or radio waves. No, you cannot see God (unless you look). No, you cannot hear God (unless you listen). No, you cannot feel God (just like you can't feel headaches).

.:webmaster:. said...

Brandon,

Your analogies as to evidence for your god appear to me as fallacious in that you are comparing verifiable physical realities to a non-verifiable supernatural deity. To be cliché, you are comparing apples to oranges. While it’s true that I cannot see radio waves, radio waves can be “seen” by using technology. Headaches, on the other hand, are merely physical responses to tension, illness, constricted blood vessels and/or other physical causes. There is nothing supernatural in a headache, is there?

It honestly escapes me as to how these two examples you cite compare to “sensing” an invisible, immaterial, incomprehensible entity with which Christians claim close communion.

Care to elaborate?

AtheistToothFairy said...

.:webmaster:. wrote:
"There is nothing supernatural in a headache, is there?"
---
Webmaster,

Maybe Brandon has a point here.

There might be something supernatural about some headaches, because every time I think about having religion preached at me, it give me a terrible headache.
Surely it's the great xtian god's words causing the headache, thus it must be supernatural, no?

Gotta love this type of reasoning...haha


ATF

stronger now said...

Didn't some ancient cultures cut holes in a persons skull to let out the evil spirits that were causing the headache?

AtheistToothFairy said...

stronger now said...
"Didn't some ancient cultures cut holes in a persons skull to let out the evil spirits that were causing the headache?"
---
Stronger, here ya go:

I don't know about you, but I think I'll use asprin instead.
It seems to scare away the evil spirit in my head, just fine and dandy these days.


From... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mental_illness


Prehistoric times:

In prehistoric times, mental illnesses were assumed to stem from magical beings that interfered with the mind. Individual tribes and groups of shamans had their own spells and rituals that they used to attempt to cure such mental illnesses. Often, such rituals took the form of exorcisms, in which the shaman would attempt to coax the evil spirit that was causing the disorder from the body.

In some prehistoric societies, a primitive form of surgery was used to attempt to exorcise the malignant spirits. Trepanation (also spelled trephination), the practice of drilling a hole through part of the skull without damaging the brain, was believed to allow the release of spirits trapped inside the skull. Skulls with trepanning holes dating back more than 10,000 years have been found in Neolithic Europe and South America. In fact, the presence of calluses on the surfaces of many skulls recovered showed that the operation had a surprisingly high recovery rate.

ATF

stronger now said...

ATF,

I need another hole in my head like I need another...well, you know.

White willow bark for me, thanks.

Anonymous said...

Hi All,

I am a believer of GOD. I am very concerned of the way you spoke about HIM. He died on the cross to bridged that gap between mankind and the HOLY FATHER. After all the punishments, Jesus died but was risen from the dead. He conquered death and was ascended into Heaven. Isn't this proof that he is God?
We believe what we want to believe but I stand firm on my faith. We don't need to see the actual miracles in this world for us to believe but to hold on to his words in the Bible.
God bless us all.

Astreja said...

Anonymouse: "He conquered death and was ascended into Heaven. Isn't this proof that he is God?"

Hold on there, buddy! The Biblical stories of Jesus are mythological, not historical. Before you can use them as proof of a god, you have to prove that the things described in the Bible actually happened.

And it doesn't look good, not at all. No one wrote about this Jesus character during his own lifetime -- The Gospels were written at least thirty years after the events they supposedly describe. Various significant events, such as the earthquake and the darkness over Jerusalem on the alleged day of the crucifixion, were not recorded by anyone. Not a word... Not a single mention from a city full of scribes and Tanakh scholars; not a peep from the astronomers in neighbouring areas.

Fact: We have no credible accounts of people coming back from the dead after several days in a tomb.

Fact: We have no credible evidence for the existence of your god, just various anecdotal, subjective religious experiences that can neither be verified nor duplicated.

Fact: We're a tough crowd. You may think the Bible is proof; we don't. To us, it's no more than an ancient storybook.

Go 'stand firm' in your faith somewhere else, please.

freethinker05 said...

AnonyMouse, I'm glad that you're concerned about what we say about your god, but I have alot of bad,(if not good) thoughts about jedus.

For instance, I keep seeing myself as the roman soldier that stuck the spear in jesus's side.

I keep thinking if I where the soldier; before I stuck the spear in jesus side, I would of first said; IN GOD I THRUST! Again, Thanks for your concern; NOW GIT! Roger...A/A

Anonymous said...

Peace to all,

I am deeply concerned of the ways you spoke about GOD. The Bible is there for us all to read and understand. There is a website called 7 Youths Testimonies of Heaven and Hell. Please do read it because they are real. I do not fear the words that will come out from your mouths but I do fear what GOD will do to me if I do not share what I believe is the truth.
My brothers and sisters. please take some time to read it.

God bless us all.

Anonymous said...

Peace To All,

This is another website that tells the reality of Hell. It does exist.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/sounds_from_hell.htm
Please do pray to Jesus to forgive us our sins. There is still hope in everyone of us. Once we perish
judgement will be set upon us. You choose which way you want to go. Either Heaven or Hell.
God loves us all. Please do not forget this.
God bless us all.

Astreja said...

Anonymouse, if Hell were to actually exist (Já, riiight...), it would prove rather clearly that your god does not in fact 'love everyone'.

Fortunately, Hell, sin and your god are all myths. And the Bible is one of the most disgusting and destructive books of mythology ever written. We know. We've read it.

You, a believer in eternal torture and omnipotent loving torturers, have a long, long way to go intellectually before you're qualified to tell anyone what is 'real'.

And don't you fucking dare teach that vicious little mythology to an impressionable and vulnerable child. Not even one. Not even your own kin. If you disregard My wishes and commit that particular act of psychological violence against any child, anywhere, may life turn to shit in your hands and may that child disown you.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Hell fearing squeaky-any-mouse wrote:
This is another website that tells the reality of Hell. It does exist.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/sounds_from_hell.htm

--------
WOW, imagine that, real-honest-to-god sounds from hell.

So all one has to do to find hell, is to drill a really deep hole in Siberia.

Okay, I see a FEW problems with this concept. Here's just a couple.

1. If one can DRILL a hole INTO hell, send down a physical microphone (which doesn't burn up), then why wouldn't those who are in hell be able to escape through that same hole?

2. Isn't it kind of strange that spirits would sound a lot like the distorted voices from human vocal cords?

3. Why would dammed spirit beings stuck down in hell, make acoustic type sounds?
("Acoustic"; meaning vibrating AIR molecules)
Other than someone drilling a rare hole 'into hell', who would hear those acoustic voices with acoustic type human ears?

Well, this is indeed a surprise, so perhaps spirits have yet **another** quality that normally would be associated with a physical fleshly body...Ears and Vocal Cords.
Funny how so many things of the god/spirit world resemble our earthly nature, but then it's just not possible for the god's to have been thought up by humans, nah.

I have a question for ALL reading this now, that came up tonight at home.

We all are told that Lucifer and his pack of demons, rebelled while in god's heaven and got cast out as a result of that rebellion, yes?

So then tell me, how is it that god didn't see this rebellion coming ages before it happened?
Doesn't god always see the future?

Now the answer I got here at home was that god did know it would happen, but it was all part of his "great plan", so he didn't stop it.

So the way I see it, is that either god couldn't foresee this rebellion of his own spirit creations, or he had no problem with the devil rebellion and then sending these rebels down here to earth (hell) to torment his lowly fleshly creations.

So it sure seems god did in fact create EVIL and when the chance arose to kill those evil rebels, he chose instead to put them WITH his human 'lambs'.

I just do not get how folks buy into this fable stuff as being factual, but take it from me, I've got a true believer here, who has no problem with any of these far-out tales of old.


ATF (Who still wants to know why Lucifer always gets the bad-rap, when the volcano god has done far more evil to our world)

.:webmaster:. said...

The story about the "Well to Hell" is a well-known urban legend. Read all about it at Snopes.Com.

anonymous said...

Peasce To All,

GOD is understanding, loving and forgiving to those who sins against him. He is ready to forgive anyone who will repent from their sin even to the utmost.
GOD does not force you to do his will. We choose our own destiny. Remember my brothers and sisters, it is our own FREE WILL.
Their are a lot of testimonies out there but be careful because the DEVIL is cunning and could lead you into not believing about the reality of Heaven and Hell.
Please try to read and understand their stories. It is never too late to ask for forgiveness from GOD.
GOD bless us all.

Searching said...

Anonymous wrote : GOD does not force you to do his will. We choose our own destiny.

What is there to choose? If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to choose between my money or my life, guess who gets the money?

There is no such thing as free will, only manipulation through fear.

Besides, God, Heaven and Hell does not exist. And I AM NOT YOUR SISTER!

boomSLANG said...

Infected: Peasce To All,

Okay, I'll give benefit of doubt, seeing as how the "c" key is fairly close to the "s" key.

Infected: GOD is understanding, loving and forgiving to those who sins against him.

Benefit of doubt, withdrawn.

"GOD" is a concept that exists inside the "mind" of mankind..i.e..in his brain; "GOD" exists nowhere else. People who believe "GOD" exists outside their own minds, are infected with what is refered to as a religious meme. People who are infected likely contracted the virus via various sources---sources such as family members, friends, literature, and the "church". A common symptom of this mind-virus, or meme, is when the infected calls what sometimes occurs in human nature, a "sin". There is no such thing as a "sin"; there is only committing unnecessary harm to other human beings. Many times, this unnecessary harm is minor, and again, is due to human nature...i.e..curiously putting a thumbtack in someone's chair to see their reaction, etc. Other times, the harm is malicious and violent, and in such cases, the perpetrator may have a defect in their brain...i.e..Jeffrey Dahmer etc. In any event, neither act is a "sin".

Infected: He is ready to forgive anyone who will repent from their sin even to the utmost. GOD does not force you to do his will.

In this instance, by "He", we can logically infer that the infected refers to the Christian biblegod, "Jesus". If we take an unbiased, comprehensive look in the Christian resource book...aka the "Holy Bible", and we then compare it against the infected's above-quoted statement, what we find is that the infected leaves out one crucial stipulation, or condition. The infected often attempts to omit this stipulation, because....well, because they are ill.

Of course, anyone with any knowledge of Christian theology will know that one must believe, and thereby accept the theology in question as "Truth", in order to qualify for the "benefits" of the membership. This process - this "oath" - must take place before the alleged "forgivness" can be granted.

And further, it seems that to not be 'qualified' isn't bad enough. In this case - and again, according to the Christian resource book - said biblegod created a specific place for those whom biblegod "cannot" grant this "forgiveness". That place is called the "Lake of Fire", sometimes refered to as "hell". It is there that said biblegod will stand by and watch as the non-compliant get incinerated, this of course, for not adhering to the stipulations put forth by biblegod, himself.

Infected: We choose our own destiny. Remember my brothers and sisters, it is our own FREE WILL.

At rare times, the infected will seemingly manage to say something not entirely false.... in this case, that we are in charge of our own lives. As seen, the infected refers to this as "FREE WILL". But don't be fooled by this term, because the Christian resource book explicitly says that if we do NOT choose to believe the Christian theology and accept it's biblgod as our "savior", again, we will be incinerated in the "Lake of Fire". With those options, no sane, mentally stable person, can say that one's "will" to choose, is truly "free".

Infected: [There] are a lot of testimonies out there but be careful because the DEVIL is cunning and could lead you into not believing about the reality of Heaven and Hell.

Often times, the infected will introduce the biblical antagonist into a discussion when attempting to transmit, and propagate, their meme. This antagonist, of course, is the "DEVIL"...aka..."Satan". As healthy-minded people know, the "DEVIL", like "GOD", only exists as a concept; neither have any referent in reality.

But interestingly, even if we, for sake of argument, hypothesize that said "DEVIL" exists, what we see is one of two philosophical problems: Either, 1) biblegod is powerless against the "DEVIL", and thus, this clearly negates biblegod's alleged "omniscience"...or 2) The "DEVIL" is actually necessary to seeing "GOD'S plan" to fruition. In other words, "sin" is actually necessary. This poses a real conundrum for Christian theists..i.e..the "infected".

Infected: It is never too late to ask for forgiveness from GOD.
GOD bless us all.


All said, there is still hope for the infected; there is a cure, and that cure is called reason. Yet, the infected has to want to get well.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Wisdom comes from those who seek it. True wisdom is gained by deep understanding of it's nature. The Bible is there for those who seeks wisdom and truth so that they can have eternal life in Heaven.
How can this Universe exist without GOD's intervention and creativity? How can you explain the very existence of mankind on this planet? Through apes? Where did all those apes come from? The fish in the seas, the birds in the skies above and the animals that roam the land. Where did they all come from?
You can look at your backyard for generations to come and yet no human being or animal will exist on it not unless someone does put them there. True? It is the truth.
Heaven and does exist. Satan do not want you to believe that it exist because he doesn't want anyone to be saved. He doesn't want anyone to know anything about Jesus because he is the salvation. He is the only way we can go to go Heaven and be with the Father Almighty.
If a person puts a bullet in your head and you die, wouldn't you be asking for justice specially if this person cut short your life here on Earth with your loving and caring family? Of course you will be asking for justice. Will you be able to stand close to this person once he dies as well and be with him in Limbo for all eternity? Because you believe that there is no Heaven and Hell so all souls go into Limbo for all eternity?
What happens to all those people that kills other people, serial killers, sell drugs, do prostitution and all kinds of evil things? Will you be with them in the same place? Will you permit your loving and caring family to be with them in that same place? Wouldn't you be asking for justice to be done for all these people? To separate you and your family from these kind of people? You will ask for justice.
There is no such thing as Limbo. There is only Heaven and Hell. That's why GOD is asking for us to repent with our sin to Jesus and be saved throughout eternity.
We choose which way we want to go.
Remember, it is our own FREE WILL.
God Bless Us All.

Astreja said...

Ah, I see that Anonymouse is back for another thrashing.

"Wisdom comes from those who seek it."

No, it comes from personal experience of reality.

"The Bible is there for those who seeks wisdom and truth so that they can have eternal life in Heaven."

The Bible is poorly-written mythology composed by Bronze-age people who didn't have a frigging clue. It is anti-wisdom and anti-truth. It promotes subservience, values abusive behaviour, and worships death. That's right; death.

And personally, I don't want 'eternal life in Heaven.' Not My idea of a good time, not at all.

"How can this Universe exist without GOD's intervention and creativity?"

Quite easily. The universe is here, but there's no evidence of your god.

"There is no such thing as Limbo. There is only Heaven and Hell."

Wrong. Limbo, Heaven and Hell are all unproven religious fantasies.

May you learn enough about the real world to one day cast your faith on the trash heap.

Steven Bently said...

"It is never too late to ask for forgiveness from GOD. "

Oh...OK...I'll wait until I die and see if hell exists, if it does, I'll ask your god to forgive me, since you personally swear it's never too late to ask for forgiveness. Thanks!

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

It is never too late to those who will repent before they die. Once you die, judgment will be set upon you. It is too late to those that goes to Hell. Any hope of salvation and forgiveness from GOD at that point is a false hope as you have been judged.
Astreja, what about mankind? Where do you think we come from? Even if GOD let you see a barren desert for centuries,no human being or any animal will exist on it just like a flower. Not unless GOD will create one. True? It is the truth. We are the creation of GOD. Where do you think your soul would be once you die? Do you think you would become a butterfly or a bird? Do you believe that you are going to be resurrected into another different form or probably into another place? Wrong. Only 2 ways to go to. Either Heaven or Hell. Your own FREE WILL.
God Bless Us All.

Astreja said...

"Astreja, what about mankind? Where do you think we come from?"

We share a common ancestor with the *other* great apes. Yes, humans are indeed apes. The common ancestor lived approximately six million years ago, so we may or may not be able to dig up any meaningful, intact DNA to trace our lineage much further back in time.

I don't know what the future holds for radiometric dating of any fossils we do happen to find, but the science has advanced considerably from the days of Carbon-14. (For anyone who's interested, here's a table of isotopes currently in use.)

Abiogenesis (that is, life from non-life) is still a very young science, but personally I favour the hypothesis that certain combinations of organic molecules -- Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon and sometimes nitrogen -- became more prevelant in the environment due to their structure. These molecules attracted free atoms in such a way as to create mirror-image versions of themselves, and thereby gained the ability to duplicate themselves. Chemically and mindlessly.

And I think that the "mind" is an extremely complex electrical field created and sustained by our electrochemical brains, and that it ceases to exist when our brains die.

"Where do you think your soul would be once you die?"

What soul? When my brain dies, "I" simply do not exist any more.

"Do you think you would become a butterfly or a bird?"

I am reasonably confident that some of the molecules that make up My body right now could easily have passed through a butterfly or a bird on the way to the 2008/01/15 version of Me.

"Do you believe that you are going to be resurrected into another different form or probably into another place? Wrong."

For once, I agree. Nothing is going to "resurrect" Me.

Or you, either. Deal with it.

But extremely small parts of past, present and future versions of Me will, indeed, continue to exist in different forms and different places, as long as the universe exists. That's the way matter and energy work. And that is all the immortality I want or need.

"Only 2 ways to go to. Either Heaven or Hell."

I hardly think so... But if Hell does in fact exist I've decided to go there as a matter of principle. Read this.

And then go stuff your creepy little blessings up your ass.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

If you really believe in those Science theories of yours then you would be sitting on your own backyard for ages hoping that something will pop up as in a human form or an animal at that.
Science up to now is still struggling to find the true existence of this Universe. And mind you, I am a chemical engineering student and no chemicals whatsoever had been discovered to produced a real human being. Cloning, genetics and or DNA's are all science discoveries and yet no figurative concrete evidence of our subject. Only GOD can create a human being.
God Bless Us All.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Please read this as the answer to your Zen valkyrie testimony.
http://bibleprobe.com/archive/messages/392.html
God Bless Us All.

Astreja said...

And the Anonymouse continues to eat its own poop...

"If you really believe in those Science theories of yours then you would be sitting on your own backyard for ages hoping that something will pop up as in a human form or an animal at that."

WTF??

Why in the name of dear, sweet uncle Loki would I want to waste My precious time on Earth in such an outlandish manner?

"I am a chemical engineering student and no chemicals whatsoever had been discovered to produced a real human being."

Um... I will put this as gently as I can.

You are a flaming idiot.

You apparently have no comprehension of the mind-boggling time scales involved in evolution and abiogenesis.

Contrary to what it claims in the book of Genesis, humanity did not magically appear out of thin air. It has taken us billions of years to work up to Homo sapiens sapiens.

And a self-replicating molecule (an amino adenosine triacid esterpolypeptide, to be exact) has, in fact, been synthesized in a laboratory setting. Read this.

Stop trying to wedge Biblegod into each and every problem that makes your ego uncomfortable.

Then sit down and actually try to understand the science of it all.

If you can't bother to do that you have no business becoming a scientist, and I strongly advise you to change your major to Divinity.

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

And, as for your "answer" to My Ex-timony, I find it completely unmoving. Near-death experiences vary wildly from person to person, and I have no reason to believe that this alleged monk actually went anywhere but his own imagination.

Nonetheless... If Hell exists, I must go there in protest against its very existence. It is the honourable thing to do.

Thank you for reassuring Me that I have made the correct decision. My vow stands.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

No one is worthy of inheriting the kingdom of GOD unless we repent with our sin through Jesus.
Hell has been created for the Devil and his demons. It is not meant for mankind to be there but only to those who do not believe in salvation through Jesus Christ.
I can only hope and pray that oneday GOD will touch each and everyone of you so that you will be
enlighten to the truth. To free yourselves from the grasp of the Devil. The truth will set you free.
Remember this day that I spoke to you about Jesus and his salvation.
It is still not too late as long as you are alive. I will leave the decision to you.
I will do read from this site from time to time and still extend the salvation through Jesus Christ.
May GOD have mercy on your souls and forgive you from your sins.
May GOD bless us all.

boomSLANG said...

Infected: Only GOD can create a human being.

The exact opposite is true; only a human being(one infected with a religious meme) can create a GOD.

God 'less us all.

Passerby said...

Yes, evolution is a grand and amazing blind "creative" force.

Thank Evolution for its guiding force that gave all of us the ability to express our emotions through facial expressions! It was an easy enough task involving only a "few" coordinated electical impulses across a miriad of facial muscles!!!

How important our facial expression must have been during the evolutionary process! Those evolved "creatures" that lacked expression must have been quite dull to speak with and thus forced these poor versions into extinction. Who could blame those that had already developped facial expressions...by chance? It would have been so dull for them to speak with these daft individuals.



Please folks, let reason have victory in your mind. You're created and deep down you must know it. Is it really so hard to accept?

He gave you body, mind and soul! I hope someday you'll come to agree and join me (and many others) in thanking Him!

Thank God for my toddler's amazing smile!

Blessings

Astreja said...

Here we go again... (sighs and helps Herself to another piece of chocolate)

PatsyBoy: "You're created and deep down you must know it. Is it really so hard to accept?"

Falsehoods, superstition and wishful thinking are something that should never be accepted.

The god of the Bible created nothing.

Nothing at all.

It is a fictional character based on older fictional characters ultimately based on primitive humanity's fear of the dark.

It is an extremely violent and fear-mongering archetype unworthy of worship or emulation.

30,000 different sects of Christianity constantly whine and bitch about who is a True Christian™ and who is not; whether their god is one being, three, or more. They can't even agree among themselves.

"It would have been so dull for them to speak with these daft individuals."

Look in the mirror, Pb. You're the poster boy for daft around these parts.

Hmm, 'Pb' is the Periodic Table symbol for lead. Coincidence? I. Think. Not. (thanks Chemistry Gods and offers them some chocolate, too)

Your preaching has become tiresome. Now's the time on Sprockets ven ve dance!

AtheistToothFairy said...

Passerby wrote:
"Please folks, let reason have victory in your mind."

Guess what, we have 'let reason have victory in our minds', so your wish already came true.

We reasoned your jebus can't exist, and poof, he was GONE, just like that.
It's really really easy to do. Just one tiny ounce of reason is enough to see reality, a reality where imaginary gods do not exist.

Now you try it.

Repeat after me...."Jesus was yet just another god figurehead, made up by ancient men to delude and control people with.

Repeat no less than 3 times, take 2 aspirin, and call reality in the morning.


'Doctor' ATF (Who wonders how these xtians can ignore the mountains of evidence against their god, and still hang onto that sick and sad belief with faith alone?)

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

I would rather have Faith in my heart and walk with those who honor and obeys GOD's commandments than to have Fear and can do nothing at all. Fear is the exact opposite of Faith and I choose Faith.
People without GOD are the ones who worries a lot and fear creeps in their hearts because there is no one to protect them.
Bill Wiese have testified that Hell does exist.
Read his testimony before it's too late.
God bless us All.

Astreja said...

Anonymouse regurgitates the same old crap...

"People without GOD are the ones who worries a lot and fear creeps in their hearts because there is no one to protect them."

You have a lot of fucking nerve, pretending to read the minds and judge the emotions of literally millions of people you don't even know.

Furthermore, I find it difficult to believe your implicit claim that you are somehow magically immune from fear. You may *think* there's someone there to protect you; but, from our perspective, you're just as alone as us.

We find different, far more practical ways of dealing with life's problems. Ways that do not require us to suspend critical thinking skills. Ways that put full responsibility for outcomes in *our* hands. Ways that consistently work.

And you apparently know very little about the psychology of fear, as well. In stark contrast to your ludicrous claim that fearful people "can do nothing at all", My experience is that most people function quite well under such stress. (Sometimes better than usual, by the way... I've done some of My very finest work in moments of crisis.) In My opinion, to be without fear is to be without courage. The two are inseparable.

"Bill Wiese have testified that Hell does exist."

I'm aware of this testimony, and am of the opinion that Wiese imagined the whole thing or fabricated it as a preaching tool.

But, even if Hell does exist it changes nothing for Me. I refuse to worship any god that would create such a place as Hell. It was not an option worthy of consideration when I was seven years old. It is not an option now, at age fifty. I don't expect it to become an option any time soon, as the more I learn about Christianity the more it disgusts Me.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Bill Wiese had testified about Hell because the Lord told him to do so. He has so much experience and knowledge about the word of GOD. He cannot lie because he knows that GOD will punish those who makes false claim about Heaven and Hell.
Yes, there are a lot of pastors, preachers and christians alike that are burning in Hell right now. They are being punished more because they backslid against God. They proclaim and worship GOD but do things that are not holy to GOD once they go back to the real world. Yes, this world belongs to Satan and his demons. It is up to us to repent and seek salvation from Jesus Christ.
No one on earth is holy enough to sacrifice once life to be able to regain eternal life with GOD. Jesus is the only one pure enough without a single mark of sin in his heart. He is the one that sacrifice His life on the cross to save us from sin and be acceptable in God's presence. Without acknowledging Jesus, no matter what we do here. Even if you do good things to other. Sacrifice your own life for someone is nothing to GOD if you will not accept Jesus as your saviour.
He is the way to Heaven.
I, therefore proclaim that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by him (John 14:6)
Blessed are those who hears the word of God.
Bless us all.

.:webmaster:. said...

Passerby, your posts aren't welcome here. Remember? Or did you forget that I've repeatedly requested that you cease posting here?

I wonder why it is that you feel justified in dishonoring my request that you discontinue posting here? Is that the kind of behavior Christianity teaches a person? To disregard the clearly stated requests of those who don't adhere to your religion? It makes one wonder how far a Christian will go to push his or her agenda on others. Christian or Islamic, it appears they are all in possession of scary and dangerous mindsets, at least if they are all like you.

Regardless, your friend anonymous thinks that "Fear is the exact opposite of Faith."

Well, according to Dictionary.Com, the exact opposite of "fear" is boldness, bravery, courage, fearlessness, valor... And the exact opposite of faith is dubiosity, skepticism, disbelief, unbelief...

According to Frank Herbert, the author of the "Dune" series, "Fear is the mind-killer." And fear -- fear of the Lord, fear of hell, fear of judgment, etc. -- is what Christianity is really all about, as your anonymous friend just confirmed in his most recent post. Fear is not the opposite of faith; fear is faith's enabler.

Jim Arvo said...

Passerby, as always, your ignorance is appalling. Even Darwin himself came to a rather deep understanding of facial expressions (See "The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals"), and the ideas have been taken even further since then. Of course, you never stopped to ask whether science had anything to say before concluding that it did not. Right? Right.

May you some day pry open that mind of yours. Good luck with that.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

When I mentioned Fear is the direct opposite of Faith, I am not talking about your Dictionary but more particularly about the Bible.
It's been written in the Bible that those who doesn't have Faith lives in Fear.
Fear comes from the Devil. It destroys the lives of those people who doesn't have Faith.
Romans 12 says that everyone is given the measure of Faith.
How much faith do you have? It depends on you.
Hebrew 11:6 reads; without faith it is impossible to please God.
I do believe in GOD. He is alive and the only one that saves mankind from sin is Jesus Christ. The salvation to Heaven. No other way but through HIM.
Believe it ore not Hell is real. It is underneath the Earth. It's been mentioned a lot of times in Bible. The Devil and his Demons were throwned down from Heaven into The Pit.
Bill Wiese testifies that it is around 3700 miles beneath the Earth's surface.
A lot of people had testified and yet you don't believe a single thing.
May GOD enlighten you about the truth and give you mercy for the things that you have done.
God bless us all.

boomSLANG said...

Of the two infected guests currently posting on this thread, the "Anonymous" guest is back with:

When I mentioned Fear is the direct opposite of Faith, I am not talking about your Dictionary but more particularly about the Bible.

The infected will often times extol their respective religious doctrines as if said doctrines are the final authority on all knowledge - including words and their meanings - and thus, when they do this, any non-infected person can see that the infected's reasoning becomes completely circular. In this particular case, a certain word that is universally accepted to mean one thing, can "only" have the opposite meaning that the infected's Bible says it does. And of course, the infected "knows" this to be "true", because their doctrine says it's true....i.e..circular 'logic'. Again, we see the implicit "affirmation" in the infected's next statement:

It's been written in the Bible that those who [don't] have Faith [live] in Fear.

This circular type of reasoning is the 'foundation' for the infected's beliefs...e.g.."it's written in the bible"....therefore, whatever's being proposed as true, is "True", because it's written in the bible. It's almost as though the virus shuts down a part of the host's brain.

Infected: Fear comes from the Devil.

A healthy-minded, non-infected person knows that such things as "devils", gods, goblins, boogiemen, zombies, imps, gremilins, etc., have no referent in reality. Furthermore, they know that "fear" simply comes from uncertainty. In contrast, an infected person - even grown adults, believe it or not - believe that being uncertain about the future comes from a "Devil". If you happen to meet a severely infected person, they may even go as far as to tell you that the "Devil" is an actual being - one who wears a red leotard, has a trident tail, wields a pitchfork, and lives in the center of the earth. Yes, it seems absurd, but remember, these people are mentally ill.

May reason find them.

.:webmaster:. said...

"It's been written in the Bible that those who doesn't have Faith lives in Fear."

Chapter and verse, please.

"Fear comes from the Devil"

The Bible:

"Fear your God. I am the LORD." Lev 19:14

"Fear your God. I am the LORD your God." Lev 25:17

"Fear the LORD your God" -- Deut 6:13

"Fear the LORD your God" -- Deut 10:12

"But be sure to fear the LORD" -- i Sam 12:24

"You must serve faithfully and wholeheartedly in the fear of the LORD." 2 Chron 19:9

""Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied." -- Job 1:9

"Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling." -- Psalm 2:12

"Let all the earth fear the LORD" -- Psalm 33:8

"The righteous will see and fear" -- Psalm 52:6

"My flesh trembles in fear of you" -- Psalm 119:120

"All mankind will fear" -- Psalm 64:9

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear HIM..." -- Luke 12:5

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" -- Philippians 2:12

"A fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." -- Hebrews 10:27

"Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come" -- Rev 14:7

Are you sure we are talking about the same god here? Sounds like there's a whole lot of FEAR being bandied about by your god.

"I do believe in GOD"

Yes, Passerby... err, I mean, anonymous. We know you BELIEVE in a god. That's wonderful for you. Now, would you please quit posting here? Thanks so much.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

I am not yet done with my testimony.
Hell is located in the center of the Earth. More than 12,000 degrees farenheit in temperature which is hotter than our own Sun's surface.
The Lake of fire is mentioned in the book of Revelation. The pit, better known as Hell is where you will find Fire and Brimstone.
It is mentioned in the Bible many times about Fire and Brimstone, and they cast down the Devil and his angels, the Earth opened up and trapped them so to fufill the punishment set by GOD to his unworthy servants.
Brimstone better known as Sulfur. A yellowish non metallic substance found underneath the Earth's crust. Coincidence again or hallucination perhaps? I don't think so.
God bless us all.

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

Piss to All: "I am not yet done with my testimony."

Oh, goody. (grabs popcorn and gluten-free beer)

"Hell is located in the center of the Earth."

Been there, have you?

"More than 12,000 degrees farenheit in temperature which is hotter than our own Sun's surface."

Measured it, have you?

"The Lake of fire is mentioned in the book of Revelation... Coincidence again or hallucination perhaps? I don't think so."

Neither do I. The myth was most probably derived from mankind's past experiences with volcanoes. You know, those geologically unstable mountain-thingies that spit liquid rock all over the landscape and destroy entire villages?

Leaving no one alive to suffer mythical 'eternal torment'?

Seriously now, you silly little git. You've obviously invested a large part of your life in Christianity, to the point where you're prepared to publicly abase your precious reason and common sense to defend the wild-ass imaginings of your insipid little death-cult.

I would like to take a few moments to commend you, PtA, for all the fine work you've done...

...Helping us at Ex-C illustrate how blind adherence to religion can so tragically fuck up a mind. Well done, faithful blog-troll! May you deconvert thousands.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Converting ex-christians back into being a born again christians is my purpose of serving Lord Jesus Christ.
THe awakening call of the Bible is upon you all. Those who want to hear the truth will be set free from the clasp of the Devil.
I will always be here praying for all of you so that one day you may realize that there is a living GOD that created us and that Heaven and Hell is not a myth but a reality.
God bless us all.

Astreja said...

Don't you have something important to do, PtA? Like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, ministering to the sick, visiting prisoners?

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

You are one of my highest priority.
I will be here from time to time telling you and the others how much Jesus Christ loves you. How GOD is longing for you to accept HIM in your heart.
The message of hope has been given to you.
Accept Jesus as your personal savior and you will be save.
Believe me because I cannot lie about this matter. It is better for someone to lie about something than lie about the word of GOD.
God Bles Us All.

boomSLANG said...

Infected: Peace to all

Lies. The infected only seeks to re-infect people with his or her religious meme. In this case, his or her particular strain of virus..i.e.."Christianity", uses threats of hellfire for non-compliance. That is not "peaceful".

Infected: I will be here from time to time telling you and the others how much Jesus Christ loves you. How GOD is longing for you to accept HIM in your heart.

This is a play on words. The unproven subject, "GOD", is being misrepresented by the ill and sickly as "longing" for believers, when in fact, belief is mandatory, lest the non-compliant be incinerated in the mythical place called "hell", this, as the unproven and allegedly "all-loving" character known as "GOD" stands by in the clouds and watches.

Infected: Believe me because I cannot lie about this matter. It is better for someone to lie about something than lie about the word of GOD.

All infected people lie to others, but most noteworthy, they lie to themselves. This is because the infection prevents them from seeing reality.

Astreja said...

PissArtist: "You are one of my highest priority."

Give it up, kid. You are wasting precious time that you will never, ever get back.

"I will be here from time to time telling you and the others how much Jesus Christ loves you. How GOD is longing for you to accept HIM in your heart."

Don't count on having a long stay at this site... Our webmaster occasionally gives the boot to unoriginal, monotonous EvangiDrones like you. (Your only hope is to keep feeding us straight lines that we can use to mock your beliefs mercilessly.)

And where on Earth did you get the idea that we never heard your message? I know that *I've* heard it at least a hundred times.

I would like to remind you that the name of this site is Ex-Christian.net. We walked away on purpose.

"The message of hope has been given to you."

Hope is the denial of reality.

"Accept Jesus as your personal savior and you will be save."

I, personally, do not want to be 'saved'. If your god actually exists and created something from which humanity needs to be saved, then I assert that your god is far, far more dangerous and evil than anything it could have possibly created.

"Believe me because I cannot lie about this matter. It is better for someone to lie about something than lie about the word of GOD."

Lying is undesirable no matter why you do it. And I'll grant that you may not *think* you're lying. You may "merely" be brainwashed, deluded, undereducated and/or too scared of the Hell myth to stand up and challenge your beliefs.

But I would hazard a guess that, every time you post here, a few people move away from Christianity rather than towards it. Why do I think that? Because the garbage you're posting here is the same garbage that led Me to reject Christianity.

As I said earlier, thanks for helping us liberate even more people from your death-cult.

.:webmaster:. said...

Marc, your religious fanatacism drives you to post, even though I've asked you dozens of times to cease. That is so sad. You really are mentally crippled and deranged by your religion. I pity you.

But, from now on I am committed to deleting every post you make.

Blessings!

stronger now said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
boomSLANG said...

Webmaster: But, from now on["Marc",] I am committed to deleting every post you make.

"Hallelujah!

And anyway, in a more recent post by "Marc", AKA "Passerby"(which has now been scrubbed), in his closing remarks he said that only "God" can change our hardened hearts.[paraphrased]

Of course, being the dipshit, impenetrably ignorant buffoon that he is, he probably isn't even aware that this shifts all responsibility to NONE other than biblegod, himself. Yes, "ONLY GOD" can reconvert apostates. In other words, there's nothing that "Passerby", "Marc", "Yogi", "Unblinded", "Anonymous" can say, or do, to win us back to belief in biblegod. Repeat: ONLY GOD can reconvert apostates....and thus, any past, present, or future attempts from "Passerby" - or any other Christian - are/were as useless as bird shit on a door handle.

Shalom!

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Webmaster, the people on this website needs enlightenment about the truth. You will be responsible before GOD for shielding these poor innocent souls from the word of GOD.
Remember this day that you ignore every little details about the Bible being preach by some christians trying to save these people from condemnation into the depths of Hell.
May GOD have mercy on you.
God Bless.

Astreja said...

(thwacks PissingAwayRealLife with a clue-by-four) Attention, please.

This is Ex-Christian.net. We've read the Bible. We think it's a work of fiction.

Your most fervent, heart-rending prayer can not and will not cause a being that never existed to save people from something that never existed. Stop pretending you have 'The Truth'; you aren't fooling anyone here.

Go away.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

I am not trying to fool anyone.
I am only trying to spread the Word of GOD through this website because it is the truth.
I have given you testimonies from different people and yet you don't want to listen to it.
You have given reasons such as hallucinating during NDE and Bill Wiese uses his testimony about GOD to attract more people in his gathering. What else is there that you would believe in?
http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Important_Issues/concerning_the_resurrection_of_daniel.htm
The website tells the story of a pastor from Nigeria who died and been resurrected after 42 hours.
David Servant tells all about pastor Daniel Ekechukwu's journey into Heaven and Hell.
Please read his story.
God bless us all.

Jim Arvo said...

Hi there anonymous,

You said "I am only trying to spread the Word of GOD through this website because it is the truth."

Here's one little step you can take toward being taken seriously (although, to be honest, I can't see that ever happening). Recognize that what you are stating is an OPINION; it's something you happen to BELIEVE. Okay? As far as I know, nobody left you in charge of the "truth". Want to give it another go?

Just trying to be helpful...

Astreja said...

PissArtist, believers' testimonies of alleged "miracles" are not acceptable here. Anyone can make up a wild story about someone coming back from the dead. We don't even know for sure that the man *was* actually dead. He may have been in a coma. Or the whole story may have simply been made up to impress particularly naïve believers.

Were you there, where it happened? Did you see the man, first dead and then alive? If so, how do *you* know he was dead? Did you have an EKG and EEG measuring heart and brain activity?

Didn't think so.

(And shame on you if you accepted the resurrection story as truth just because you read it on a Christian website. Gullibility is not a virtue.)

We want scientific data. Witnessed by non-believers; collected and tested on reliable, standard and properly calibrated equipment; and analyzed in a peer-reviewed journal so that we can read the fine details of the experiment and perhaps do the same tests ourselves.

Not hearsay from unknown people halfway around the world. And certainly not ancient Mesopotamian and Semitic mythology.

Until you can deliver unbiased, scientifically authenticated data regarding your alleged god and its activities on this planet, you are wasting your time here. You have no truth to give us, only ancient fables and modern lies. And we've had quite enough of that shit, thank you.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Jim, I am only testifying what is written in the Bible. Obviously, I am not the truth. The Bible speaks of the truth and that is what I am proclaiming. Read the Bible so you will understand more about the Word of GOD.
Astreja, David Servant is the one who interviewed Pastor Daniel about his resurrection / back from the dead. He's got all the details.
Why not e-mail him so you can satisfy your curiosity regarding Scientific evidence? Let me know if you have any luck at all because it seems that your mind is corrupted with "To see is to believe" attitude.
Don't you trust anyone aside from yourself?
GOD bless us all.

Jim Arvo said...

Thank you for the reply, Anonymous. You said

"I am only testifying what is written in the Bible."

No, that's not quite true. You are claiming far more than "The Bible says X, y, and z," which would be objectively verifiable statements. You said "I am only trying to spread the Word of GOD... because it is the truth." (emphasis added) Thus, you are making an enormous claim. Do you see that?

Anonymous: "Obviously, I am not the truth."

Obviously! I didn't suggest that you were. What you are claiming is that you are in possession of the truth. Right? That's what I take issue with. You are merely stating an opinion.

Anonymous: "The Bible speaks of the truth and that is what I am proclaiming."

Bingo. Proclaim all you like. It's your opinion. That is, unless or until you can substantiate it.

Anonymous: "Read the Bible so you will understand more about the Word of GOD."

You are being extremely presumptuous. Nearly everyone here has read the Bible, including me. I've studied it (and Christianity in general) for decades. To me it is clearly the work of an ancient society, just as every other so-called holy book is. Have you studied the history of your Bible? Have you read it all, from Genesis to Revelation? Have you read anything critical of the Bible or Christianity?

To Astreja you said "...it seems that your mind is corrupted with 'To see is to believe' attitude.
Don't you trust anyone aside from yourself?
"

Pardon me, but that is extremely rude. Do you not see anything wrong with what you said to Astreja? Do you think you can muster the humility to offer an apology to Astreja?

Taylor said...

Jim said: "That's what I take issue with. You are merely stating an opinion."

And so are you. Your opinion is anchored to the natural order. Ours, anchored to the spiritual order.

You deny the spiritual order but we see that the spiritual order transcends nature. This cannot be seen by you unless God reveals it to you.

You can call it OCD, or stupidity, or credulity, or whatever you like but, by God's grace, you cannot and will not ever take it away from authentic Christians. Our Faith is ours to keep because we love our God, as He revealed Himself through His son Jesus.

We, Christians, will continue to pray for all you because we absolutely do not desire your damnation.

Peace

Roger C. S. said...

gee thanks taylor, i feel a whole hell-of-a-lot better.

Jim Arvo said...

In response to my statement that anonymous was "merely stating an opinion" Taylor retorted "And so are you."

That is a most excellent start! Yes, I too offer my opinions. Moving on...

Taylor: "Your opinion is anchored to the natural order."

How is it that you claim to know what my opinion is "anchored to"? I'll be happy to discuss what I've drawn from in reaching my opinions, but until such time as we've had that discussion, I'll thank you to not make unfounded assertions about my position. Fair enough?

Taylor: "You deny the spiritual order but we see that the spiritual order transcends nature. This cannot be seen by you unless God reveals it to you."

Again you make an assertion about my position which you have no basis for. You also make some bold assertions about what you "see" (which I interpret as meaning unassailable knowledge--correct me if I'm wrong), what I can "see" (know?), and how your god goes about it. Would you be willing to label any of these "opinions"?

Taylor: "You can call it OCD, or stupidity, or credulity, or whatever you like but, by God's grace, you cannot and will not ever take it away from authentic Christians."

Surely you're not suggesting that I used or implied any of those pejoratives. Have I suggested that I wish to take "it" away from you or anybody else? (I presume the "it" is religious belief.)

To be clear, Taylor, my point is simply this: Both you and anonymous appear to make statements as though they are unassailable truths. Can you not offer them as "opinion" instead? If you could directly address that simple question I'd much appreciate it.

Taylor: "Our Faith is ours to keep because we love our God, as He revealed Himself through His son Jesus."

You are quite welcome to believe whatever you wish, and for whatever reason you wish. Such is the privilege of a free society. Wouldn't you agree? If, however, for some reason you wish for others to seriously consider your beliefs, then you'll need to work on your delivery a bit.

Taylor: "We, Christians, will continue to pray for all you because we absolutely do not desire your damnation."

Thanks for the nice thought. In return I will continue to offer constructive criticism in the hope that we might all benefit.

Have a nice day.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Jim, I am deeply saddened by your comment that the question I asked of Astreja would turn out to be rude in your perception.
The concept of the question is to establish whether one's inner self got Faith and Trust.
When someone tells you an intriguing story, you simply don't believe it straightaway. That is human nature.
You need to have some concrete evidences to satisfy your curiosity specially if it is out of the ordinary.
Unbelievable it may seem, you still need to find out if it's true or not.
It is your own wisdom that will dictate whether to believe it or not but unfortunately wisdom alone is not sufficient enough to give you a better understanding or jugdment in that situation.
This is the answer to my own question to Astreja.
This is where I asked of GOD's intervention to give me the wisdom to understand the story in it's whole context. I will have Faith in that person. I will put my Trust in that person. For Faith goes hand in hand with Trust. Without Trust, Faith is simply not enough.
Without Faith, Trust will be useless.
If you put your Faith and Trust in GOD, you will never make a wrong decision in life.
Inspite all of this my HOPE for all of you still stand.
That you may begin to see the reality that there is a living GOD that loves us.
It is better to live with HOPE in our hearts than to have none at all.

GOD bless us all.

Taylor said...

Jim wrote: "Can you not offer them as "opinion" instead?"

No. The evidence is overwhelming.

We have the same evidence, yet we make different conclusions. I'm a rational man and I make my living through my ability to reason and solve problems.

If we are both lucid and of "sound" mind, can you explain the different conclusion?

I can, and it has nothing to do with my cognitive abilities or lack thereof.

Good night.

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous,

To me it is rude to tell someone that their mind is "corrupted" and that they "trust" only themselves. Do you not see that as rude? If not, then we do indeed have very different notions of socially acceptable discourse.

I'm not going to reply to your comments line-by-line. Maybe we can simply agree on a few things. When someone tells you X, you are generally under no obligation to simply accept it as true, especially if X conflicts with other known "facts", and/or if X has dubious support. Yes? Can we also agree that people emphatically believe all sorts of nutty things, from alien abductions to astral projection? Therefore, the depth of one's convictions is not in itself a good indicator for the truth of the belief. Can we agree?

If we agree so far, then I would like to know why you insist on presenting your beliefs to us as though they are unassailable facts. All that does is to emphasize the depth of your conviction, which (as I hope we've agreed) is not a reliable indicator of truth. What it does do quite reliably, however, is to poison the discussion, as it indicates an unwillingness to consider alternatives. Does that make sense to you?

Bottom line: I would like to know why you (apparently) object to saying something along these lines: "In my opinion, the Bible is the word of god."

Jim Arvo said...

I asked Taylor whether he could offer his beliefs as "opinions". He replied:

"No. The evidence is overwhelming."

What do you mean by "overwhelming"? That is from your perspective, right? You cannot be saying that I must accept your conclusion based solely on your assessment; That would be silly, right? Similarly, I would not expect you to accept my conclusions based solely on my assessment. But that's precisely why I would not present my opinions to you as though they were unassailable facts. You are free to questions them; in fact, I view that as a very healthy thing.

Taylor: "We have the same evidence, yet we make different conclusions."

Why do you say we have the same evidence? Surely you're not claiming that we've studied all the same books, examined all the same arguments, made all the same observations, etc. Right? So clearly we do NOT have the same evidence. Maybe what you mean is that we have access to the same evidence (at least in principle). That would make more sense to me.

Taylor: "I'm a rational man and I make my living through my ability to reason and solve problems."

Same here.

Taylor: "If we are both lucid and of 'sound' mind, can you explain the different conclusion?"

There are many possible explanations. I hope you are not asking me to explain specifically why we disagree on this subject, as I have no desire to speculate about what you know or how you think.

Here is a short answer to the general question. Our brains operate primarily on heuristics, not symbolic logic. These heuristics appear to be influenced by myriad factors, including one's presuppositions, one's prior experiences and knowledge, one's personal needs and biases, one's emotional state, one's habits of thinking, etc. I could make a huge list. Any or all of these could change the inferences one draws from a given set of "facts". This is one reason debates are useful; they force us to examine some of these factors, some of which ought to be discarded, and codify our reasoning.

Taylor: "I can, and it has nothing to do with my cognitive abilities or lack thereof."

No doubt you attribute it to a supernatural influence. Is that correct? What do you make of the fact that I too can offer an explanation for the same phenomenon.

I just gave you my opinion (along with some brief justification). Why do you see it as so onerous to do likewise?

Astreja said...

PtA: "Astreja, David Servant is the one who interviewed Pastor Daniel about his resurrection / back from the dead. He's got all the details. Why not e-mail him so you can satisfy your curiosity regarding Scientific evidence?"

You say that he interviewed Pastor Daniel. He is not an eye witness. Just more hearsay, also inadmissible as evidence.

And Pastor Daniel is yet another link in this chain of hearsay. Does he have evidence, or just an unsubstantiated claim? From his title, it sounds to Me that his specialty is Christian theology and evangelism, not biochemistry or medicine.

Nonetheless... This is one unproven story on a heavily populated planet. Similar miracles could be happening literally every hour of every day, but this does not appear to be the case. It strikes Me as highly suspicious that such an amazing thing allegedly happened once, and in a place far, far away from any technology that could either confirm or debunk it.

"it seems that your mind is corrupted with 'To see is to believe' attitude. Don't you trust anyone aside from yourself?"

As Jim Arvo pointed out, your words are extremely rude.

But I'll play.

First of all, I do not think of 'To see is to believe' as corruption. That would imply that 'Believe without seeing' is an uncorrupted point of view.

Accepting something as fact without supporting evidence is a highly dangerous road to take. The accuracy of a belief is subject to the accuracy of each and every person or thing that stands between the believer and the object of his belief. One mis-translation, one misunderstanding, one lie is all it takes to render the belief inaccurate.

Extraordinary claims, such as someone coming back from the dead, require both extraordinary evidence, and rigorous impartiality and adherence to the scientific method as well. I feel that at least one of the people claiming the resurrection miracle is strongly biased towards the outcome "It was a miracle, and that miracle proves *my* god!" In such cases I absolutely must have the raw data, because the testimony of some third party is simply not sufficiently convincing for such a grandiose and improbable claim.

As for 'Don't you trust anyone aside from yourself?' the answer is 'Yes'. I trust quite a few people, but there are two things you need to know about My version of trust:

1. I know these people personally and have regular dealings with them.

2. If they do something to violate My trust, the relationship is put in abeyance until they make reparations and re-earn that trust; otherwise I have no further dealings with them. One strike and you're out.

And, in My life, Christianity struck out in the top of the first inning. Even if the god of the Bible had seen fit to establish a relationship with Me, the Bible itself is not particularly inspiring regarding the overall trustworthiness of that god.

As for you, Taylor, you are indeed quite welcome to believe whatever you want. However, I have no intention of following you down that particular rabbit hole.

I would also like to mention that many of the regulars here at Ex-Christian.net possessed rather considerable faith at some point in their lives. Unfortunately, an insurmountable disconnect between faith and real-world experiences brought it all crashing down.

To quote the Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight (from The Tick): "This could happen to you, baby. This could happen to anybody!"

boomSLANG said...

Infected/Anonymous...If you put your Faith and Trust in GOD, you will never make a wrong decision in life.[bold added]

This statement is strikingly suspicious, nevermind it's arrogance. To NEVER make a wrong decision in life? Woah, that sounds to me like it implies perfection, and thus, it seems to me that a perfect track-record for decision making would make one superhuman. I must tell you, that notion certainly contradicts one of the Top 10 motifs that we constantly hear from Christians---and that of course is, how they are "NOT perfect...just forgiven".

So, which is it?..are you guys "perfect"? Yes?..your "GOD" guides you to make ALL the right decisions in life, does "He"? Hmmm, to me, that suggestion is laughable. But even if we pretend it's true for a minute---what on earth would you need to be "forgiven" for, if you were "perfect"?

Infected/Anonymous...It is better to live with HOPE in our hearts than to have none at all.

Infected, you attack a strawman. One does not need to believe in invisible Supreme beings to simply have "hope"...i.e..to have expectations and desires, etc. What an utterly lame assumption on your part. 'Not entirely shocking, however.

Jim Arvo said...

To Anonymous and Taylor,

Just to be clear, neither one of you is willing to qualify any of your statements as being "opinion", is that correct? If that's not correct, please do speak up. If that is indeed your position, then I have a question for both of you: How do you feel about Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus who assert their religious doctrines as absolute fact rather than opinion? Is that a good thing? Do you think you could have a useful conversation with such a person?

Thanks.

Taylor said...

"Do you think you could have a useful conversation with such a person?"

No, and that's why there's no useful conversation possible with you. You may call your stance, simply your opinion, but you're as anchored to your "opinion" as those Muslims. Yes, and myself.

I know from evidence given to me that God exists and that He revealed Himself through Jesus.

I've looked at the evidence and my conslusion is final. By God's grace, nothing could happen to me that would persuade me otherwise.

No. This universe and us humans didn't happen by chance. If I accept this truth, then we must have a Creator. If I examine all faiths, the one that stands head-&-shoulders above the others based on the moral code of its teachings, is Christianity. Careful now, not based on its "members" but on its teachings.

Hence, I am a Christian. Not by anything of my doing, but by the grace of God. I sure hope some of you receive this grace someday.

Good night.

Astreja said...

Taylor: "If I examine all faiths, the one that stands head-&-shoulders above the others based on the moral code of its teachings, is Christianity."

No, it's the Jains who have the most remarkable and stringent morality. Buddhism is vastly preferable to Christianity from a morality point-of-view, too.

Your religion considers humanity flawed and evil from birth, and looks forward to the end of the world.

(Oh, and your 'founder' killed an innocent fig tree, sent some pigs off a precipice to their deaths, and called a woman a dog. This must be some strange new definition of 'morality' that I wasn't previously aware of.)

AtheistToothFairy said...

Taylor said a few things I wish to address:

Taylor,
Let me first say that I hold NO hope at all in trying to convince you to give up your beliefs.

Someone who has built such a strong brick wall around themselves (that you evidently have), will never see beyond that wall in short order. You are as 'stubborn' in your beliefs as most of us here used to be; as I once was about god.
So I know that for now, you will not see our arguments having any weight to them, but it would be beneficial if you kept what we all said in mind for the future; just-in-case?

I also suspect that you are a *young* man, just from the manner you insist on protecting your opinions, with such blind zeal.

Now about these things you've said:

1. Your opinion is anchored to the natural order. Ours, anchored to the spiritual order.
You deny the spiritual order but we see that the spiritual order transcends nature. This cannot be seen by you unless God reveals it to you.


From where I sit (today) there is nothing but that 'natural order' to anchor myself to.

Yes, I do realize that you believe you detect a spiritual mystical world beyond that natural order. However, I'm also willing to bet that you detect this special world with your emotions; and by skewing your perception of chance-events to favor your belief system, much as those who believe in anything supernatural do to convince themselves that 'thing' is reality.

You most likely keep astute for the times when prayers will be answered, but you either ignore the majority of times it doesn't get answered, or have convinced yourself that god will get around to answering it in due time or that god felt it was best for YOU not to oblige your request etc..

I can't tell you how many times in my life a problem got solved simply just by sitting back and waiting things out. I could have easily attributed those solved problems to god if I had prayed for a solution, which is exactly what I bet happens to you.
Of course, I did NOT pray but merely waited things out instead, so should I still believe god was fixing things anyway?

When good things happen in your life, I bet you are certain god had something to do with them?
Ah, but when bad stuff happens, how do you then explain those things.
Do you say to yourself that god is testing you, like Job?
Do you believe that the devil is causing them and if so, why doesn't god stop him then?

You state that this spiritual order transcends the natural.
Well, if such a spiritual realm truly existed, it would seem it would have to do just that.
So what I think you do is to first assume it does exists, then conclude it must transcend nature.
However, where is your proof that such a realm exists?
Do you just believe it does, because you were taught to believe in god and the bible, so therefore it just-has-to exist?

I once thought this way, long long ago, but I got a little wiser with age and wanted to see evidence of such a realm, other than hearsay evidence that once was good enough for me.
I once WISHED something of that realm to be true, therefore in my mind, it had to be true.
Wishing with all your heart for something to be true Taylor, simply does not make that thing
come true; regardless of how many birthday candles one can blow out in one breath.


2. You can call it OCD, or stupidity, or credulity, or whatever you like but, by God's grace, you cannot and will not ever take it away from authentic Christians. Our Faith is ours to keep because we love our God, as He revealed Himself through His son Jesus.

Actually Taylor, there is nothing to take away, other than a belief in some cherished fantasy that you've grown so fond and trusting of.
The god you proclaim to 'love' isn't the same god that other xtians love, as all xtians mold god into an image that they personally want him to be.
Some mold god into a entity that will give them a big bear hug when they need it, while others want a god that will avenge them from their enemies.
Some want a god that will offer them a life beyond death and some want a god who will roast one's enemies for all eternity.

How would you Taylor, compare the god of the old testament to the jesus of the new?
Do you see the same personality traits between these two godheads?

Do you think it was okay for the OT god to wipe out all life on this planet, all because mankind had gotten too sinful for god's taste buds?
If so, then how do you explain why that god plan didn't work and not long after the flood, things went right back to how they had been?
Didn't god know his plan would fail?

Why did god have no problem in killing not only all his sinful humans, but every lower life form that couldn't possibly have sinned against god?
Did they also deserve to die for man's sin?

What is the nature of the god that Taylor believes in?
How do you KNOW the nature you perceive is actually his true nature?
How do you know you're not cherry-picking bible versus that support what you WISH them to, all while ignoring any verse that goes against your grain?

No, I don't call it "stupidity" Taylor, but it is clear to me that you are brainwashed and your thought processes are tuned to fit the way your religious beliefs demand them to be.
You have been put inside a protective god bubble and until you pay a visit outside that bubble, you'll never be able to see just how deep your rabbit hole really is.


3. The evidence is overwhelming.......
We have the same evidence, yet we make different conclusions. I'm a rational man and I make my living through my ability to reason and solve problems...........
I know from evidence given to me that God exists and that He revealed Himself through Jesus.
I've looked at the evidence and my conslusion is final. By God's grace, nothing could happen to me that would persuade me otherwise.


No Taylor, we do NOT have the same evidence at all.
I have yet to see any credible evidence that your god not only exists, but is involved in the affairs of humankind.
If there is a god somewhere out there, he's sure the best hide&seek player of all time.
Not only that, but he created the earth and universe to appear to humans in great contradiction to what his very own bible proclaims about it.
Is this just another way your god wishes to hide from the average 'joe', while playing out his childish game of us having to find him by shutting down our brains?

As far as Jesus goes:
You believe he walked this earth because many folks insisted to you that this was factual.
Ahhh, but have you ever bothered to seek out the historical evidence that he really did live?
You would be hard pressed to come up with anything beyond hearsay that shows he really did.
Why did such a fantastic magical man/god, leave behind nothing better than rumors of his existence?
Is this another part of his hide and seek game, so only those willing to buy into this on faith alone, can be 'saved' from some ancient sin?


4. This universe and us humans didn't happen by chance. If I accept this truth, then we must have a Creator. If I examine all faiths, the one that stands head-&-shoulders above the others based on the moral code of its teachings, is Christianity. Careful now, not based on its "members" but on its teachings.

You say it's a "truth" that we didn't happen by chance, so therefore a creator must exists.
How did you conclude we didn't happen along by chance?
Did you conclude this, merely because you don't wish to believe that this is the case?
I'm betting you formed that conclusion using your emotions, rather than your intellect?
You need to feel there is a god at your back, so therefore there just has to be, right?

So if you can't believe that the universe popped into existence, then why is it so easy for you to believe that a super duper being that could make the entire universe, managed to climb into existence.
If the complexity of the universe is the thing that makes it impossible for you to believe it could have just happened, then obviously your god has to be far more complex than the matter/energy of the universe and yet this god not only came about, but most insist this god was always around, even before the universe existed.

Which brings up another question Taylor.
How long do you suppose it was before god decided to create the universe?
What was god doing that infinite amount of past time, before he created our universe?
Was god happy when space was nothing more than a vacuum?
What changed in god that suddenly one day he decided he just had to create a universe and then some life forms as well?
Why does god **need** us humans, hmmm?

I won't pit the xtian religion against others, because to me, they are all works of bad fantasy.
I suppose one could try and pick the lesser of the evils, but to me it would be far better if none of them existed at all.


5. Hence, I am a Christian. Not by anything of my doing, but by the grace of God

Are you saying the "grace of god" is what turned you into a xtian?
So why doesn't this 'grace' work on everyone, including those who never heard about your god/jesus in times gone by?
Did the American Indians have a chance for this grace of god, before Columbus showed up?
Are they all in hell right now?
What about a 2 month old baby.....does that baby have the grace of god?

Taylor, you really need to start seeing the world using a bit more rational thought, rather than letting your emotions guide your life's path.
Emotions are fine and dandy, but if they keep your cognitive mind from functioning then they are a great hindrance to your existence.

If your god is real and in your life, then you have nothing to fear by seeking out the evidence that would support his reality, and also looking at the evidence that shows he's not reality.
Would god blame you for wanting a bit more proof of his existence than blind faith?
If you're so certain that god/jesus is real, then no evidence you look at, will ever change your mind. God will surely not fear you looking at such counter-evidence, as god is fearless, right.
I'm sure if he exists, then he'll ante up enough additional proof of himself to YOU, to counter anything else you might read about that would indicate he's a fantasy.

I mean, he must know you are a strong faithful true believer in him, so he'll not let you fall away, just because you get a bit curious to have more solid evidence of his reality, right Taylor?

On the other hand Taylor, you just might discover what we all did. That god/jesus was made up my men and never ever existed.
Of course, one has to have a lot of courage to face such a possibility and most xtians aren't that brave to face such a life without a god at their backs.
It can be tough to realize you are all on your own in life, which is why most xtians won't dare even peek at the possibility of no god around.


ATF (Who thinks Taylor could see the truth if he would only tone-down that stubbornness he shows)

Taylor said...

A valient effort by the ToothFairy but please, don't waste your typing energy. All the questions you asked, God has answered for me.

I absolutely do not fear any of your preferred books as I've read many of them.

It is you poor ToothFairy that lives in a fairy land. You think you're smarter than God because you can't find Him and that is precisely why you'll never find Him.

If you seek Him with your heart, He'll find you. I hope and pray that God grants you this grace.

Good day.

stronger now said...

Taylor:"If you seek Him with your heart, He'll find you. I hope and pray that God grants you this grace."

Well, you seem full of rambling nonsense. If you did recieve answers from your god to all of ATF's questions then why not simply answer ATF's questions? There's no need for attacking ATF for asking good questions.

Unless you feel that the "answers" that you recieved from your god are worthless, and the only recourse for a defense of your beliefs is to insult the person asking the question. In that case, you sir, are an asshole.

You claim to live in a land with magical beings that do magical things. If anyone is living in a world of make-believe it is you. If it were anything more than that you wouldn't have to insult anyone, you'd be able to back up your beliefs with credible evidence.

As you are unable to do this, I see no reason to believe that the god you claim has answered all the questions for you, exists anywhere but in your imagination.

Now, for the quote of yours that I used. It seems that you have forgotten what site you are posting on. Did you think that no one here ever tried, honestly tried, to seek out the biblegod useing the "heart"? I did. I found that the god that is described in the bible has no basis in reality after doing so. You are a jerk and so is the biblegod.

"Go now and die in what way seems best to you."

Jim Arvo said...

Taylor said "No, and that's why there's no useful conversation possible with you. You may call your stance, simply your opinion, but you're as anchored to your 'opinion' as those Muslims. Yes, and myself."

I'll ask you kindly to not project hypothetical positions onto me. You have no way of knowing this, and it serves no purpose to make baseless assertions. Feel free to ask, but if you simply assert things of this nature, you undermine the possibility of dialog. (This has essentially been my point from the start.)

Taylor: "I know from evidence given to me that God exists and that He revealed Himself through Jesus."

We discuss Christian evidence here almost on a daily basis, and I've studied it for a good portion of my life. If you have something concrete in mind, feel free to state it. However, the chances are slim that you will inject anything here that we've not thoroughly dissected hundreds of times already. Have you thoroughly researched the evidence that you say has been "given" to you? By what means was it "given"? Through sermons and devotional books perhaps? Supernaturally? Please be more specific.

Taylor: "I've looked at the evidence and my conslusion is final. By God's grace, nothing could happen to me that would persuade me otherwise."

This may sound nit-picky, but what do you mean when you say you've "looked at the evidence"? Have you also looked at skeptical arguments regarding the same evidence? How about the evidence presented by other religions? Lastly, would you encourage adherents of other religions to reconsider their positions, or do you see it as legitimate when they too consider them "final"?

Taylor: "No. This universe and us humans didn't happen by chance."

I think you mean "we" humans, but no, of course we didn't happen "by chance". I'm wondering whether you think science claims "It's all just by chance." The latter is a straw man that is, unfortunately, often propagated by those who either wish to discredit science or who simply know very little about it (and often both).

Taylor: "If I accept this truth, then we must have a Creator."

But have you actually examined what you believe here, and why? You present this as though it's iron-clad logic, whereas it appears to be based on a very naive view of science. We can discuss this further if you wish.

Taylor: "If I examine all faiths, the one that stands head-&-shoulders above the others based on the moral code of its teachings, is Christianity."

Can you point to some portion of this moral teaching that is unique to Christianity? Here again I suspect that you are making some naive assumptions. Nearly all of the Christian precepts can be found in far more ancient teachings, and in some cases stated more clearly or eloquently. Again, we can discuss this in more depth if you are open to it.

By the way, you say "If I examine all faiths...". Have you actually done this, or are you speaking hypothetically?

Taylor: "Careful now, not based on its 'members' but on its teachings."

Nobody here is so naive as to confuse people with philosophies or dogma.

Taylor: "Hence, I am a Christian. Not by anything of my doing, but by the grace of God."

I think that's highly unlikely, but you can try to persuade me. First, how is it that you settled upon Christianity? What was the dominant religion in the culture you were raised in? Have you ever been exposed to any seriously scholarship that runs counter to your current beliefs?

Taylor: "I sure hope some of you receive this grace someday."

If you have some logical arguments to support your position, I'll be quite happy to consider them and critique them. However, wishing for supernatural intervention is not very persuasive.

Taylor, to me the problem with refusing to use a simple little word like "opinion" is that it leads one to view one's own beliefs as unassailable, which has two distinct disadvantages: 1) It discourages critical thinking and thereby renders any flaws in your own beliefs more indelible, and 2) It creates a barrier between you and those who hold other points of view.

Taylor said...

Jim: "Nobody here is so naive as to confuse people with philosophies or dogma."

I'm sorry to inform you but this is incorrect. From what I can clearly see, the bulk of the discussion topics on this site revolve around human failures as opposed to Christian failures. This pastor, that pastor, this church leader, these ex-fellow Christians, etc...

Taylor: "Hence, I am a Christian. Not by anything of my doing, but by the grace of God."

Jim: "I think that's highly unlikely, but you can try to persuade me."

Impossible. This is for you to work out with God. My only hope can be that God would allow my puny words to be a catalyst to your conversion. I offer God these occasional words to disbelievers as a form of prayer offering, nothing more.

Jim: "Taylor, to me the problem with refusing to use a simple little word like "opinion" is that it leads one to view one's own beliefs as unassailable, which has two distinct disadvantages: 1) It discourages critical thinking and thereby renders any flaws in your own beliefs more indelible, and 2) It creates a barrier between you and those who hold other points of view."

1) It is my hope that I have done and continue to do my critical thinking in the light of God. What makes you the judge of what is to be considered as critical thinking? I don't put my faith in my mind but in God's ability to guide my mind. His words are my guide, they are straight as an arrow and they cut like a knife....and I love them.

2) No barrier any different than the barrier your opinion has created from your worldview. You erroneously imply "no barrier" which is a elitist claim in my opinion. What makes you think that you are so open to other worldviews? If others have examined a miriad of facts and have made the conclusion that is contrary to yours, what allows you to judge their conclusion as wrong?

I tell you that I believe my mind to be full of barriers. These barriers are caused by my own sins. God's mercy on me guides my mind to clarity through my willful effort to follow His will. A journey that isn't without many imperfections on my part. He works within our capacity to teach those willing souls how to walk towards Him.

I hope for all of you, that you seek Jesus to guide you through this wilderness. There's no other way to reach Him.

Take care.

Jim Arvo said...

Taylor: "From what I can clearly see, the bulk of the discussion topics on this site revolve around human failures as opposed to Christian failures. This pastor, that pastor, this church leader, these ex-fellow Christians, etc..."

I don't think you've done a careful survey of what is posted here. The vast majority of the discussions I have participated in here do not dwell on poor Christian behavior, although the topic definitely does come up from time to time. More importantly, my initial point stands: nobody here is naive enough to confuse behavior with doctrine; while there may be some connections, they are different categories.

Taylor: "I offer God these occasional words to disbelievers as a form of prayer offering, nothing more."

Do you stop to consider what others have to say in return? If your posts are really nothing more than a form of prayer, then it would seem you are not interested in other points of view. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Taylor: "It is my hope that I have done and continue to do my critical thinking in the light of God."

Do you ever question your assumptions concerning god? To me, critical thinking entails questioning even the most fundamental assumptions. From what you've said thus far, it appears that there are some things you do not care to question--or at least no longer. Is that accurate?

Taylor: "What makes you the judge of what is to be considered as critical thinking?"

If you would, please point to where I made such a claim. We can then discuss it.

Taylor: "...His words are my guide, they are straight as an arrow and they cut like a knife..."

You are presumably referring to the words found in the Bible. On what evidence do you assert that they are the words of a powerful deity?

Taylor: "No barrier any different than the barrier your opinion has created from your worldview."

I'll kindly ask you again to refrain from making assertions about my position, as you have little idea what my position even is. Once again, feel free to ask if you are curious. I'll be happy to explain what my views are and why I hold them.

Taylor: "You erroneously imply 'no barrier' which is a elitist claim in my opinion."

I've made no such implication. You appear to know very little about my position, so why are you making these assertions? All you need to do is ask. But I do like the way you ended that statement (i.e. the part in bold)!

Taylor: "What makes you think that you are so open to other worldviews?"

I never said anything about how open I was, but I will volunteer a little about that now. First, nobody is completely open to differing worldviews, for a number of reasons. But one can examine them and make an honest attempt both to understand them and to represent them fairly; that is what I try to do. That is why much of my reading is from authors with whom I disagree. I try to fully understand their arguments.

Taylor: "If others have examined a miriad of facts and have made the conclusion that is contrary to yours, what allows you to judge their conclusion as wrong?"

That's "myriad". Again you are making unfounded assertions, but I'll ignore those and answer what I think you are asking. If someone has done extensive research on some subject and reached a conclusion that contradicts my worldview, the FIRST thing I do is to try to understand HOW and WHY the person has reached that conclusion. Having done extensive research is not in itself a guarantee to have reached the correct conclusion. I hope you will agree that this is manifestly true, for otherwise we would have no scholars who disagree. Yes? So what allows me to "judge", meaning to reach my own conclusions, is earnest study, nothing more. And what guarantees that I have made the correct judgment? There is no such guarantee; the best I can do is to be continually open to new evidence.

Taylor: "God's mercy on me guides my mind to clarity through my willful effort to follow His will."

Does that clarity manifest itself in a way that others might observe? In other words, can you exhibit for us some of the fruits of that clarity as evidence that it is as you claim?

Taylor: "I hope for all of you, that you seek Jesus to guide you through this wilderness. There's no other way to reach Him."

Most here have done just that. Are you willing to admit that there are people who have earnestly sought Jesus and believed in god, only later to reject the ideas as fanciful?

AtheistToothFairy said...

Taylor wrote:
A valient effort by the ToothFairy but please, don't waste your typing energy. All the questions you asked, God has answered for me

Taylor,
Not to worry about my 'typing energy', as what I type isn't going to be read just by xtian-Taylor alone, but hopefully by other xtians who are starting to question your very *elusive* xtian god.

While I think it's wonderful (for you) that god has already answered all MY questions directed at YOU, it would be just fan-tas-tic of you to answer my questions I raised, so that all here may benefit from your special god knowledge.

At the very least, I know StrongerNow is most curious to hear these answers from your very commutative personal god.
Right Stronger?


>I absolutely do not fear any of your preferred books as I've read many of them.

Pardon me, but I don't recall suggesting any books for you to read....although it sure would be a darn good idea.
Now if you have read any of these 'preferred books', I very curious as to which one's they were and why you felt their arguments didn't hold water?

>It is you poor ToothFairy that lives in a fairy land. You think you're smarter than God because you can't find Him and that is precisely why you'll never find Him.

The "fairy land" was indeed a land I once mentally lived in. It was called "Christianity".
I had to dig a long tunnel to escape that mind-prison, but escape I DID.

No, I never made a claim to be smarter than your pretend god.
It's truly difficult to compare one's intelligence to a mythical creature.
On the other hand, it's really not all that difficult to be smarter than a thing that doesn't exists.

As far as 'finding' this god you claim exists.

I spent enough years in my younger days, hunting high and low for this god of yours.
Frankly, it is my opinion that one should not have to jump through hoops to find this god, as he should come find ME; just that simple really.

Plenty of strangers knock on my front door all the time, so I'm pretty sure your all powerful god could also manage a knock or two as well.
I'd be more than happy to put on a pot of coffee, and find him a chair to.

>If you seek Him with your heart, He'll find you. I hope and pray that God grants you this grace.

Been there, Done that.
Result: NO GOD AVAILABLE !!

Seeing as how you're so worried about my expending energy to type a reply, then I'll also offer you some compassion as well, so please don't bother expending energy praying for me to your jebus.

If he's going to show himself, he better do it of his own volition. The last thing I want is for him to show up because some xtian is worried about my soul and begged him to make a showing.

I actually think your god is a coward, yes I do.
He fears every ex-xtian on this website, as not a single ex-xtian has ever had a visit by your god. Kind of odd, don't ya think Taylor?
I guess our rational minds are something your god greatly fears, and he knows he can't compete with the real world.


Again, 'we' are awaiting your keen insight to my questions.

Chirp--Chirp--Chirp


ATF (Who see's here yet another very scared xtain, that maintains his faith out of fear and an empty promise of an afterlife)

stronger now said...

"At the very least, I know StrongerNow is most curious to hear these answers from your very commutative personal god.
Right Stronger?"

Ya damn right I do!

(anyone want some popcorn?)

Jim Arvo said...

I have a question for Taylor:

Have you ever been mistaken about any aspect of the god you worship? In other words, have you ever thought that your god had some attribute, desire, aspect, etc. only to discover that you didn't have it quite right? If so, did you then change your view? How did you figure out that you had been mistaken? Was it through reading, contemplation, or supernatural agency?

Anonymous, you've been very quit. Are you no longer interested in this discussion?

Stronger, pass some of that popcorn this way.

Taylor said...

Jim: “Have you ever been mistaken about any aspect of the god you worship?”

Yes. The doctrine of hell I had softened in my early years when I returned to the faith. I still feared God as this grace is likely what brought about my repentance, but hell was much “softer” in my mind. I’ve come to understand, among many other things revealed by God, that hell is a very real place with real suffering. Those in hell do in fact thirst and burn and suffer beyond our imaginations. This is the most difficult doctrine for anyone to understand but I’ve simply surrendered my worries and concerns to God. I love my creator more than ever despite my deeper understanding and fear of hell.

One must remember that His Mercy is equally beyond our imaginations. Some of you could have contributed to mislead countless of His precious souls away from Him through Web sites such as these; but He is always able to forgive you. If some of you saw the reality of your actions you would crumble with remorse but alas, this reality is hidden from you, hidden from all of us. I too have done very much to offend God but I have faith in His mercy and work done by Jesus. It is never my right to condemn but I do know that rejecting Jesus offers a man no hope for salvation. It is different for those that have never heard of Jesus and His teachings; these will be judged by the law imprinted on their hearts.

Many of you at this site are heading straight for unimaginable destruction but your pride, your precious pride, has you frozen in this state. Like a deer looking into the car’s head lights, many, many men & women today are without the necessary faculty to jump out of harms way. If we had a glimpse of hell, of the sensation of hell, our bodies would die of fear. Is eternal destruction really worth hanging onto a lifetime of pride?

I will sleep soundly knowing I am reconciled to God, will you? I hope not because that fear is a gift that can give you life, if you heed its warning.

For those that will want to reply “Sleep tight!”, try to humble yourselves a moment and realize what you’re saying. It’s true, we humans derive much sinful pleasure by snide condescending remarks but this type of vanity does nothing but distance us from God. I hope you chose to surrender to God’s will and chose humility instead of sarcasm. You simply never know when your time will come…

Astreja said...

Taylor: "Those in hell do in fact thirst and burn and suffer beyond our imaginations."

(Springy Goddess munches on a handful of popcorn and passes the bowl along) Been there, have you? Or, little Christbot, are you just repeating what you were told?

Taylor, get your head out of your sorry ass. No one actually comes back from the dead. I'm not talking about near-death experiences here, but someone being demonstrably brain-and-body dead for more than a few hours.

When the brain does finally cease to function we are gone, gone, gone. There is simply nothing left of our awareness, nothing left to experience either pain or pleasure.

Many people, however, have had nightmares of Hell or similarly unpleasant things. These nightmares are the result of an unspeakably nasty meme which has been scared into them. Their unconscious minds have been fucked up by some power-mad religious indoctrinator... Sometimes a preacher, sometimes a family member.

I long for the day when all people who terrorize others with stories of hellfire are prosecuted and imprisoned for uttering threats.

As for you, Taylor... May your faith simply fade away, never to return.

Jim Arvo said...

Hi Taylor,

Thanks for that nice reply. So at one point you viewed Hell in a "softer" way, and now you realize you were mistaken; i.e. that it really is an unspeakably horrible place. Thanks for giving that example in answer to my question. But I'm still wondering how you corrected your view. You didn't really address that. Was it through reading, prayer, contemplation,... what? How did you come to realize your error?

Also, I'm curious as to whether that was a rare instance of "correcting" your view, or whether it is just one of a large number of things. As for me, I'm constantly correcting my views on things. I take it as a given that I'm flat out wrong about lots of things; the challenge is to figure out which things those are. Do you look at your faith similarly, or do you feel you've got it close to being completely correct by now? (These are not trick questions. I'm genuinely curious.)

Jim Arvo said...

Yo, Stronger'. I could use a refill on the popcorn. ATF, please pass the salt.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Jim Arvo wrote:
ATF, please pass the salt

Okay Jim, here's the salt you requested, but do you mind if I pass it to you over my right shoulder? [g]


Let me ask you something Jim, while I have you (virtually) 'here'.

When you're engaging in a debate with a xtian here, such as Taylor, do you ever feel like you're debating with a former version of your [younger] self?
Perhaps that question doesn't really apply to you, as I don't really know your history.

I often feel like I'm arguing with a version of myself that existed long long ago.
A version of myself, that was far too gullible about the supernatural and would easily swallow ideas of it, as long as those ideas came from the written words of a book or had been made into a movie.

I can still recall how convinced I once was about ancient astronauts paying frequent visits to our ancestors, all because of the "Chariots of the God's" movie and book.
I can still recall the books I read in my late teen years that I ate-up so easily, on subjects such as ESP, levitation, ghosts, the afterlife, and even the lost city of Atlantis, all written from a viewpoint that had nothing to do with religion.

My former belief in these supernatural things surely were indicators to me that a supernatural god also had to be real to.
After all, if you are of the mind-set to buy into one supernatural belief, it's not much of a jump to swallow a few more of them as they present themselves to you.

One by one, those old beliefs were forced to fade away by the evidence (or lack thereof), but it really wasn't until I concluded that we have no evidence to show for any popular supernatural belief, that I realized that god also had no evidence to support his existence.

So I guess if it took me and my analytical brain (or 'too' analytical some would say..LOL) all these many years to realize these things, then we really can't expect someone like Taylor to reach that point in a short amount of time.
For now, he'll hold fast to his god beliefs, much as I would have once defended my former supernatural beliefs from long ago.

Until one is emotionally ready to do so, one will never "see the forest, for the tree's".
Taylor obviously has a huge emotional need to cling to his god beliefs and no logic/proof at this point will make him see beyond his own self-appointed boundaries.

Let us all hope that Taylor doesn't waste away too much of his life in his futile attempt of chasing down his ghost-god. We all know how painful it can be to throw so much of one's life away in such a useless and harmful pursuit.

As my Mom always said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it"

Let's hope that Tayor one day soon, will drink the water of rationality and rid himself of the addiction to the god drug.


ATF (Who is still waiting for those god-answers to his questions, that Taylor has stored in his soul)

Jim Arvo said...

Hi ATF,

You asked "...do you ever feel like you're debating with a former version of your [younger] self?"

Actually I do not. I've been an atheist since about the age of eight. Some day I'll post my story here, although it's very prosaic: Inquisitive eight-year-old ponders god's existence and quickly concludes that it's probably a tall story. But because I rejected religion as a child, I'm actually intrigued by religious adults. It's very difficult for me to imagine what that's like.

Early on I decided I would discuss my religious views openly with anyone who broached the subject. Consequently, I've debated Christians since I was in middle school. I grew up smack in the Bible Belt, so there was no shortage of enthusiastic Bible-carrying Christians who were eager to "witness" to me. I never felt the slightest malice toward them; if anything, I found it somewhat amusing.

I too explored a bunch of crackpot theories in my youth, such as those of Eric von Danican, but fortunately none of those stuck either. If anything, I think it was helpful to learn how to sift out the chaff. And most of it is chaff after all! It's simply amazing how many "junk" ideas we are inundated with.

.:webmaster:. said...

"When you're engaging in a debate with a xtian here, such as Taylor, do you ever feel like you're debating with a former version of your [younger] self?"

This wasn't asked directly of me, but I'd like to answer it.

No. Although I was a sold-out, witnessing Christian while since the age of 12, I was never condescending toward those who did not believe. And, I always knew that there was just the slightest possibility that I might be mistaken about things. I was pretty sure that Christianity was "the Truth," but realized there was no real way to "prove it."

stronger now said...

"Is eternal destruction really worth hanging onto a lifetime of pride?"

(munching...munching..)

Ahem.. O.k., well, Taylor, if you don't supply any credible evidence for it, then there isn't really a reason to worry over such a thing.

If I were to tell you that if you don't believe in the Wizard of Oz, you'll end up the wicked witch of the west's hand puppet for all eternity, would you stay up all night in fear of that?

boomSLANG said...

Hi all,

Let's have a look, at yet, a few more of the glaring inconsistencies being offered up by our Christian guest:

Christian/"Taylor"...Those in hell do in fact thirst and burn and suffer beyond our imaginations.[bold added]

where, later on we see...

Christian/"Taylor"....One must remember that His Mercy is equally beyond our imaginations.[bold added]

Now, aside from the existential fallacies committed here, we see some 'ideas' that seemingly contradict.... at least, at face-value.

To begin with, I think it would be safe to say that "beyond our imaginations" implies beyond comprehension?...limitless?.. and the like, yes? So, the suggestion is that the "Mercy" of this alleged biblegod is limitless; it is infinitely abundant.(If that is not a fair assessment, any Christian can chime in)

Mercy:

1. Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.

2. A disposition to be kind and forgiving: a heart full of mercy.

3. Something for which to be thankful; a blessing: It was a mercy that no one was hurt.

Ref: American Heritage


As defined - and as suggested by our lovely Christian guest - it would seem that this alleged "God" would have endless "mercy"---and BTW, I can certainly "imagine" a "God" who would not incinerate people simply because they are skeptical, thus, such "mercy" is NOT "beyond" my "imagination".

In any event, this alleged "God" clearly has limits when it comes to implementing it's "Mercy". Thus, once more, we see blatant contradictions coming from the Christian community.

Oh, here's another 'gem'...I will sleep soundly knowing I am reconciled to God, will you? I hope not because that fear is a gift that can give you life, if you heed its warning.

Oh goody....scare tactics. Yes, the suggestion is that a presumed "All-loving", "All-powerful" being, wants us to be afraid of it. How very comforting. Yes, in all of it's "omnipotence", for some strange reason, it can't think of a better, less harmful way, to convince us of it's existence. For instance, it could simply decide to 'appear', just like it allegedly did 2000 yrs ago. It was allegedly making appearances all over the place, and that didn't hurt anyone's "faith", did it?(asked rhetortically)

Conclusions:

1)God's "Mercy" IS NOT "beyond our imaginations".

2) God is a manipulative bully.

'Got anything better?...perhaps, some concepts that are more convincing?

(waits for ridiculous excuses on "God's" behalf)

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Did you say that GOD is manipulative? How can one be manupilative if you have been given the chance to choose your own FREE WILL?
It is up to you whether you want to be good or bad. Of course, GOD has set up HIS rules to be followed by those who will obey his commandments.
These commandments in reality will be hard to achieve by mankind. NO one is perfect enough to live in this world without sin.
It is only through HIS son Jesus that the sacrifice should be made to release us from our sin and be righteous once again in the eyes of the Almighty Father.
NO one will enter the kingdom of GOD if we do not accept Jesus as our personal savior.
Again, this is not an opinion but my spiritual belief.
I believe that he is a living GOD.
I believe that he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
Only the Almighty Father's grace is holding back the time until the prophesy in the book of revelation will be fulfilled.
I believe in the salvation from Christ.
I still believe that one day you will be awaken to the truth before it is too late.
God bless us all.

Jim Arvo said...

Free will, check.
Not perfect, check.
Sacrificed his son, check.
Living god, check.
Okay, got all that...

Welcome back, anonymous, we missed you! You're the same anonymous as above, right? If so, don't you think it's about time to pick a nickname? I'm just sayin'...

You also said "...this is not an opinion but my spiritual belief."

Interesting distinction. Could you elaborate on that a bit? I'm not quite seeing the difference. (Maybe I'm a bit slow tonight.)

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
boomSLANG said...

Infected/"Anonymous": Peace To All,

LIES. We've already been over this, Anony'. You are not here to spread "peace"; you are here to reinfect/reconvert people with/to Christianity---a belief system where the "bottom line" is conform, are else be tortured in hellfire.

Infected: Did you say that GOD is manipulative?

Abeh, abeh, abeh...yes, that's what I said, dipshit.

Infected: How can one be [manipulative] if you have been given the chance to choose your own FREE WILL?

I think you probably meant, "choose with your own FREE WILL." Nonetheless, we've been over this myriad times, also.

Listen closely, Christian: It's "manipulative" IN THE EXACT SAME WAY as mugger who threatens to turn your brain into confetti, if you don't hand over your wallet. Uh huh....yes, you have the "FREE WILL" to decide what to do....but you are NOT "free" to go if you don't decide "right"..i.e.. if you don't comply with the mugger. Thus, one is not making their decision "freely".

Now, once and for all---do you think that you can grasp the analogy I just gave? Hint: "God" is the "mugger", and he wants belief and worship instead of our wallets.(and of course, this assumes that such a being exists, for the sake of argument)

As for the rest of your post, it's the same old apologetic tripe we've heard a bazillion times.

Beat it. scram. shoo. vamos.

boomSLANG said...

Oh, wait..my oversight....."He" wants our wallets, too. lol

Astreja said...

PtA,

The concept of punishment-by-Hell renders the concept of 'free will' meaningless. Coerced, directed choice is not free.

If your god exists it is responsible for everything. Every so-called sin. Every iota of suffering. You cannot separate responsibility from authority. If you claim that your god has 100% authority over the universe, you must also give it the corresponding responsibility for wielding that power.

Which brings us to the Trilemma of Epicurus. A god cannot be all-powerful and good in a universe where evil exists.

May you dream of your god burning itself eternally in the hell that it created for others.

Taylor said...

"The concept of punishment-by-Hell renders the concept of 'free will' meaningless."

You are free to choose love over all other alternatives. Love is manifested by humility over pride, selflessness over selfishness, forgiveness over hatred, acceptance of God's mysteries over intellectual arrogance (i.e. Faith), peace over war, etc...

If you reject love, you will be left in a state that is without God's love. The peace of sleep will be no more, the love of oxygen will be denied, the comfort of warmth will be lost, the comfort of companionship lost....all sources of peace gone because they all come from God.

A frightful state indeed and that's why it's called hell. If you wish to be with God, you only have one alternative; surrender to Love...Jesus.

How can you expect to have any peace when the source of peace itself you will be rejecting. You have the free will to join the source of love itself; please don't let your pride deny your soul's deepest desires...God.

Good night.

Jim Arvo said...

Taylor,

You realize that by accepting Jesus as god you are committing a blasphemy toward Allah, right? If Allah turns out to be the one true god, you are going to the same place as the rest of us here: a place where we will all be boiled for eternity. Not a nice way to spend eternity.

Does that give you pause? Is it pride that keeps you from seriously considering other possibilities such as this one?

Can you explain why your god insists that we believe in him? If I hid from my child from the day he was born, never allowing him any concrete evidence of my existence, I not blame him for thinking I do not exist, and I would still do everything in my power to provide for him. If the only stories he had heard about me depicted me a condoning genocide, rape, infanticide, etc., I would not blame him one bit for *hating* me; in fact, I'd applaud him, and I would still do everything in my power to provide for him.

Can you think of any circumstance in which you would willingly allow one of your children to live in eternal torment? If you did, would there be any reason to think of you as being a "loving" person?

By the way, I'd still really like to hear your answer to the questions I posed to you above about correcting your views of god.

Sleep tight.

Anonymous said...

Peace To All,

My spiritual belief in Jesus Christ as my savior is the foundation of my existence here on Earth.
I will live my life the way GOD wants it. HE will lead my life day in day out.
This world that we live in no longer belongs to GOD.
Look around you. Open your eyes. There are famines, drought, massive earthquakes etc.
We have Nations turning against other Nations. People trying to kill other people because of Power and Authority.
We have drug problems, prostitutions, rapes and all kinds of inhuman activities in this world.
Please do not ignore this warning.
These are the signs that the Second Coming of Christ is near.
Only the Almighty Father's grace is holding back the time.

I do believe in Jesus.
I do believe in a living GOD.
May GOD have mercy on us all when this time comes.
God bless us all.

Jim Arvo said...

By the way, Taylor, I think there is a very logical explanation as to why your god demands belief; He is a construct of the human mind, and "his" demand for belief is merely a proxy for those who wish to impose their beliefs onto others. "Believe as I do, or you will be sorry!" That is infinitely more plausible than the existence of a vain 3O being.

Jim Arvo said...

Okay, I'm going to call you "PtA" as others have done, since you refuse to pick a nickname.

PtA, you listed some of your beliefs for us. Thanks a bunch for that. However, I'm guessing that pretty much everybody here already knew that you believed in god, and Jesus, and the "second coming", etc. So, I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out what your point was. You do realize that we don't share your beliefs, right? You also realize that we're not going to change our opinions based on the depth of your convictions, right?

So... what is it that you're looking for? Or, to put it another way, how can we help you?

I take it you'll never deign to introduce the word "opinion" into your missives. Pity that.

TTFN.

Astreja said...

Taylor: "If you reject love, you will be left in a state that is without God's love."

False. Love is a reality in My life.

"The peace of sleep will be no more, the love of oxygen will be denied, the comfort of warmth will be lost, the comfort of companionship lost....all sources of peace gone because they all come from God."

I think not. A god that would create Hell is the antithesis of love.

"If you wish to be with God, you only have one alternative; surrender to Love...Jesus."

"Jesus" is not love. Love is love. And I want nothing whatsoever to do with the god you worship. It's a despicable monster thought up by power-mad goatherder-priests in a time when people thought the sun revolved around the earth.

And you are also resorting to the logical fallacy of false dichotomy, as there are myriad alternative gods. What if I would much rather be with Oðinn or Vishnu?

"Please don't let your pride deny your soul's deepest desires...God."

The soul is unproven and highly likely to be pure fiction, and so is your version of what a god might be.

You also have a lot of fucking nerve telling us what some imaginary part of us desires. Go piss the Blood of the Lamb all over some other website, kid.

(cracks knuckles) As for you, PtA...

"I do believe in Jesus.
I do believe in a living GOD."

Is it just Me, or is PtA channeling the Cowardly Lion from The Wizard of Oz? 'I do I do I do believe in spooks.'

We don't.

And, FYI, there were famines and droughts and earthquakes and wars and rapes and substance abuse and prostitution and 'inhuman activities' in Biblical times.

Many of the above committed by Yahweh's own people. Read the Bible and see for yourself. There is nothing, repeat nothing Biblically special about this era.

And Jesus is not coming back in your lifetime... Not unless someone stumbles upon one specific 2000-years-dead body, extracts a DNA sample, and clones him. That, at least, could happen.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

My name is Noel. I am not trying to hide anything from all of you.
Whether you believe in GOD or not is your decision.
What is it I'm looking for?
I do hope that oneday GOD will show each and everyone of you how much HE cares.
I can do no miracles but GOD certainly can.
I will keep on praying for all of you until that day of your reconliation with GOD.
GOD bless us all.

Astreja said...

Noel: "Whether you believe in GOD or not is your decision."

Please respect our respective decisions to reject your god, and Christianity, and pray in the privacy of your own home rather than on our website. Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

Hi Marc,

"God bless us, every one" -- Tiny Tim (Another fictional, literary character, just like Jesus and his Dad, who are somehow magically both the same person.)

Jim Arvo said...

Noel said "I am not trying to hide anything from all of you."

You do understand that using a nickname simply makes it possible to have a conversation, right? It has nothing to do with "hiding" or not. You can call yourself "atomic artichoke" if you like; just not "anonymous". Okay?

Noel: "Whether you believe in GOD or not is your decision."

Well thank you for that!

Noel: "I do hope that oneday GOD will show each and everyone of you how much HE cares."

Okay, but what is it that you hope to accomplish by posting here? I still don't get that. You clearly are not interested in discussing anything that may be of interest to us, such as WHY you believe what you believe. Right? Am I missing something?

Noel: "I can do no miracles but GOD certainly can."

But that's precisely the point in question, isn't it? We already know what your opinion is. You know ours. Is there anything we can profitably discuss? If not, are we done?

P.S. May the Lord Krishna's blessings be upon you.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

Neither do I need to elaborate nor explain furthermore on this subject. It is plain and simple. Believe that there is a living GOD. THe Bible is there for you to read and believe what is written on it.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is depicted clearly in the Bible. The rich man ended up in Hell and Lazarus went straigth to Heaven. The rich man begged Father Abraham to send back Lazarus into the world to warn his other brothers who are living a sinful life.Father Abraham said" that there is a great chasm or gap between Heaven and Hell and neither will be able to pass through this chasm or crossover to the other side. They had Moses and the other prophets who are proclaiming the Word of GOD and that they should believe in them. Even if a dead man was raised back to life they still wouldn't believe it".
Somehow I can see the similarity in your case that whatever I said or explain to you still you will not listen.
Wisdom alone is not enough.
King Solomon is regarded as one of the wisest ever to live in this world. So full of wisdom yet he believes in GOD.
Simply believe in Jesus and you will be save.
God bless us all.

Anonymous said...

To the jebus impersonator...Blow it out your ass somwhere else

Jim Arvo said...

PtA said "Neither do I need to elaborate nor explain furthermore on this subject."

It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish! If you wish for anyone here to take what you say seriously, then yes, you most certainly do need to elaborate and explain. If not, then just blather away and we'll ignore you. Okay?

PtA: "It is plain and simple. Believe that there is a living GOD."

Plain and simple? Yes, you are absolutely correct. It could not be stated more plainly or simply. Speaking only for myself now, I tend to look for more than those two attributes. For example, I have a strong preference for things that are supported by evidence and sound reasoning.

Thanks for the recap of the Lazarus story. We're all familiar with it.

PtA: "...whatever I said or explain to you still you will not listen."

Okay, I think we have a wee communication problem here. What you've been doing is stating your unsupported opinions, which to me does not qualify as "explaining" anything. If you would like to actually explain something, please tell us exactly how you came to believe that the Bible is "divinely authored" or "inspired" (how ever you want to express it). Can you do that? Is there some cogent reasoning behind it? If so, please share it. If not, then perhaps you could find another site to post at; one whose stated purpose is to "glorify god", or some such. Okay? I think we'd all be happier in the long run. Tootles.

Jim Arvo said...

Well, I think it's probably time to wrap up my latest experiment and recap what has taken place here. My comments are mainly intended for the regulars here, but I encourage the visitors to speak up in their own defense if they wish.

As most of you know, I like to try out various approaches to maintaining a dialog with visiting Christians. Some times I ask lots of pointed questions, sometimes I try to get them to explain their thinking process, sometimes I focus on one little point, sometimes I simply try to make them realize that we are actual human beings, just like them. As we've all seen time and again, there are some brick walls that simply cannot be breached.

In my latest experiment I tried to see if I could get some cooperation on one very small point: would our visitors simply admit that what they were espousing could be properly labeled as "opinions"? That's all. Well, both "Noel" and "PtA" (neither of whom seem to understand how to use a "nickname") steadfastly refused despite repeated attempts on my part. And I did try to be nice. For some reason, the word "opinion" is anathema to them. No, what they have is "THE TRUTH", so why should they sully their all-important messages with a word like "opinion"?

Of course, I might have guessed this outcome, but I am still dismayed by how impossible it is to have any kind of meaningful dialog with the majority of Christian visitors to this site. I think this trivial experiment sheds some light on that. How is it possible to have any kind of "dialog" with someone who recoils in disgust from the word "opinion"? What we therefore hear are "monologs", not "dialogs", and it's one reason they tend to be so annoying.

What a shame.

redtail said...

Well it is interesting to watch your experiments, Jim Arvo, even if we can sadly guess the outcome.
I always follow your exchanges because I'm so damned impressed with the way you try to engage these visitors! You are very diplomatic and patient. The fact that you usually cannot get through-
I think it shows how thick a wall is needed to shore up the christian faith....

Jim Arvo said...

Hi redtail, thank you for the nice comments. I do try...

I realized that there was something quite fundamental that I forgot to mention. I was interested in how Taylor "corrected" his understanding of god (which he did volunteer a little about, but not much) for a very specific reason.

If you look back through our exchanges, notice that Taylor frequently made assertions about my beliefs that were unfounded--they were rooted in nothing but his theology. I asked him each time to please refrain from speculating. Let's imagine for a moment that I never responded, or that I responded ambiguously. Would Taylor's understanding of my position have eventually improved, or would it have diverged into wild speculation upon wild speculation? That's actually a rhetorical question; I think the answer is clear. So, here's the punch line.

If Taylor has little interest in gaining an understanding of a human being who is quite willing to spell everything out and directly answer every question he poses, how in the world does he expect to understand "god"? Isn't it clear that he will simply project whatever strikes his fancy onto the invisible being? (That's another rhetorical question, of course.)

So, again, Taylor, if you're still visiting this site, please explain how you have come to a "correct" understanding of "god". How is it that you are able to correct errors, particularly when you think you are already in possession of the absolute truth? And if you think you have a good explanation for that, I'd like to know why you don't show the same interest in understanding fellow humans, which ought to be infinitely easier.

I know... I'm taking to a wall.

Taylor said...

Jim: "How is it that you are able to correct errors, particularly when you think you are already in possession of the absolute truth?"

Because of a grace given to me that allows me to believe and as such, recognize that the Gospels are true, does not mean that I have full comprehension of divine truths. Once you are graced with faith, the word of God will continually have the power to teach you. By the grace of God you'll know and see more and more of your own failures and God's truths. His word will become your most precious guide that will lead you to Jesus.

Jim: "I'd like to know why you don't show the same interest in understanding fellow humans"

I definitely do try my best to understand others. I'm not sure why you'd make such a broad claim? I recognize that you have an opinion about the historical Jesus that has lead you conclude that not enough credible evidence exists for Jesus (or God). Hence, this opinion of yours puts you in a class of people that identify themselves as atheists. This is your opinion.

I have been given different "evidence" that has given me the opinion that God does exist. Yes, I am not averse to calling it an opinion. It is simply founded on "something" that could never be accepted by you, unless God intervened.

Jim said: "In my latest experiment I tried to see if I could get some cooperation on one very small point: would our visitors simply admit that what they were espousing could be properly labeled as "opinions"? That's all."

To which I answered: "Your opinion is anchored to the natural order. Ours, anchored to the spiritual order."

It is my opinion and as such, my belief, that we are created beings. We could never fully comprehend God but we have been given many, many clues to His reality. Whether or not a person see's these "clues" is always due to their sins.

If you want to meet God, desire to stop sinning and make every effort to do so. Despite your failures, don't stop trying, He's watching your every step and He will help you.

Good night.

Jim Arvo said...

Hi Taylor,

Wow. There was quite a bit in that last post of your that was very good. The theological stuff aside, you made some good points. Yes, I did make an overly-broad statement about you not having interest in understanding your fellow humans; I meant only those here who have different theological views than your own, but you went some distance toward defusing even that in what you said next.

You said "I recognize that you have an opinion about the historical Jesus that has lead you conclude that not enough credible evidence exists for Jesus (or God). Hence, this opinion of yours puts you in a class of people that identify themselves as atheists. This is your opinion."

That was good! I could quibble about a couple of things, but it's close enough.

Now for a few minor objections. You said "It [my belief] is simply founded on 'something' that could never be accepted by you, unless God intervened."

This you do not know. If there was a god, and you produced a solid argument supported by enough evidence, I could be swayed.

You also said "Whether or not a person see's these 'clues' is always due to their sins."

Well, perhaps according to your theology. If I am correct in my assessment that Christianity is a false religion, then "sin" has nothing to do with my conclusion, as there is no such thing as "sin". So it all turns on the same fundamental question. In other words, your statement above begs the larger question.

As I always say, credit where credit is due. Good job.

Jim Arvo said...

Taylor = Marc/Passerby/Unblinded/etc.

What a waste of time.

Mailer said...

Taylor: "If you want to meet God, desire to stop sinning and make every effort to do so. Despite your failures, don't stop trying, He's watching your every step and He will help you."

So, opinions are non-transferrable as knowledge. Yet, you proffer your opinion as prescriptive - nice. Did the same opinionated prescription given to you from another person - work? No, that would mean you had more than clues that you guess are associated to something you really don't understand.

anonymous said...

Peace To All,

I have told most of you that I believe in the Holy Bible and to the people that made their testimonies of behalf of Jesus Christ.
The Father Almighty has given his only SON as a sacrifice for us all so that our sin may be forgiven.
Jesus is the only way to the Father. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Accept Him as your personal savior now and repent from all your sin. HE will guide you and bless you and HE will send the Holy Spirit to protect you from evil.
Do not continue to be deceived by the Devil. There is Heaven and Hell. Every single proof of Jesus's existence is written in the Bible. You have to believe that Jesus died for us all. My brothers and sisters, please do not let this pass away on you. Repent and accept Jesus and be save throughout eternity.
The centre of the Earth is more hotter than the Sun's surface as described by scientist. It is where HEll is located. Most of the people that had actually been to Hell before being taken away by GOD for another chance had testified that there is eternal torture in the lake of fire. Yes, to testify that there is Heaven and Hell.
Most of these people are still alive up to now and are still
proclaiming the salvation through Jesus Christ.
They have seen it all.
How awful it is for the lost souls in HEll.
No water. Hotter than the sun's surface. No respite in punishment. It goes on and on forever and ever.
It is better to be in jail here on Earth for you can still be given your freedom but once in Hell, there is simply no way out.
Some of you might say I'll try my luck. Don't be awfully foolish.
Neither you can stand the heat from a lighted candle burning in your hand nor stand outside in the heat of the day without getting into a shaded area and have some
water to cool you off.
I am asking all of you now to pray for Jesus to forgive you from all of your sin.
Webmaster, I am holding you responsible for all these people in your website.
May you be the first one to repent and accept Jesus as your personal savior.
Your website is full of sin and unholy words comes out from the mouth of every ex-christians here.
I am telling you now, this will not go unnoticed. GOD knows everything that goes on in your website.
May GOD have mercy on you.
Let them see my message again.
May GOD bless us all.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Any-mouse spewed the following:
The centre of the Earth is more hotter than the Sun's surface as described by scientist. It is where HEll is located
---
Hey 'peace be with you' mouse,

Thanks for the science lesson on how hot your hell is.

Of course, we have already discovered that your heaven is much hotter than this hell you speak about.
Your bible fable book makes that very clear in fact.

So if you don't mind, my friends and I here prefer to spend our future's in the cooler hell, but thanks for your concern.

ATF (Who can't help laughing at this fundie's post)

Jim Arvo said...

Marc/Taylor/PtA,

Get some counseling, and stop spamming this site. You are a total waste of bandwidth.

Astreja said...

PtA: "Jesus is the only way..."

Remember that wonderful saying "You can't prove a negative?" You cannot prove that there are no other "ways" to the mythical home of your equally mythical god.

"You have to believe that Jesus died for us all."

"Have to"? No. This is something that I can not and will not believe. I do not accept human sacrifice. It is barbaric, and you should be ashamed of yourself for accepting such a thing.

"The centre of the Earth is more hotter than the Sun's surface as described by scientist. It is where HEll is located."

Been there, have you? I think not. Scientists think that the core of the earth is solid metal surrounded by a layer of molten iron and nickel. There is simply no room down there for a cheery little torture chamber. (And, with a solid core, it's unlikely that the centre is actually hotter than the surface of the Sun.)

"Most of the people that had actually been to Hell..."

Bzzt! No one has been to Hell, although many brainwashed people honestly think they have been there.

"Webmaster, I am holding you responsible for all these people in your website."

We're adults, you fucking idiot. We all come here of our own free will. I, Myself, pay to support the upkeep of the site.

"I am telling you now, this will not go unnoticed. GOD knows everything that goes on in your website."

And it appears that your make-believe god is powerless to shut this site down. I think it far more likely that you, PtA, will one day either voluntarily relinquish your faith or be committed to an insane asylum.

And right now I'm so irritated with your superstitious bleating that I don't even care which end of that particular stick you get.

Go away.

nhel_41 said...

Peace to All,

It's been a long time since my last comment was published through this website.
I am hoping and praying that oneday you will realize the truth about GOD and his existence. It is never too late to ask for forgiveness for our sin.
May GOD bless us all.

Anonymous(Noel)

boomSLANG said...

Dear Anonymous(Noel),

If you are the same Anonymous who posted the mile long paragraph of apologetics back on February 10 2008, please either offer some evidence to substatiate your opinion, or else we regard it as just that---opinion. Thanks.

Bye now.

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