I just went to church for the last time!

Sent in by Michie S

Sunday I attended Church with my parents and I think it will be the last time I ever set foot in a Church as a Christian. I have been wrestling with my decision to leave Christianity since the beginning of 2007. I stopped attending an Apostolic Pentecostal Church - that I now consider a cult - over two years ago. I was a member of that Church for over 12years. I was in ministry, in leadership and worked quite closely with the Pastor. I have been attending various other Churches on and off since, but I can't do it anymore - I can't pretend I believe when I know in my heart I don't.

Over the years the hypocrisy, judgmental attitudes, constant fasting, praying, superiority complex and outright lies of so called Christians (my Pastor included) broke through the barrier of the "don't ask, don't doubt and especially don't question" dogma that I was brainwashed into believing. I am sick, angry and heartbroken to realize that I believed all of this nonsense for so long and wasted so much of my life trying to be a good Christian and to live holy. I was abused horribly by that Apostolic Church, and gave so much of myself, my money and my time to ministry and service. Nothing belonged to me, it was all for God and his glory and his kingdom. Even my son suffered so that I could do God's work!

I got to the point where I felt that I could never be good enough, or holy enough or saved enough. Going to Church meant being put down, shouted at to try harder and always leaving feeling worse than when I arrived. When I first left people called to try and persuade me to come back, telling me to just "sit under the word" and somehow God would open my eyes to the delusion that I had fallen under. When this did not work both my son and I were shunned by people who were our dearest and closest friends - it was as if we had the plague. I was told that I had put my life and my his life in danger and that we would go to hell! I was never allowed to defend my reasons for leaving.

This is all so fresh and new to me and I finally know what "I" feel and "I" believe. I can think for myself and trust my own instincts! The hard part now will be telling my friends - many of whom are still devout Christians as well as my parents. I think it will be hard for them to accept. Anyone who knew me even 18 months ago would not believe that I'm where I am today. I was tongue talking, foot stomping, bible thumping, prophesying, anointed oil carrying saint of the most high God!

I'm not sure what to call myself, I just know that I don't believe in Christianity or the bible and I can hardly comprehend it myself sometimes. It all seems like a bad dream, that I've woken up from and realized that I'm free! I have no intention -to misquote the bible -- of being "entangled in that yoke of bondage again"

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58 comments:

Jamie G. said...

Congratulations! I came out of the Assemblies of God and the Word-of-Faith movement. I can definitely empathize with you.

Anonymous said...

Glad you liked the Jesass pic! -Wes.

Anonymous said...

Shoot. Why did I post that here? Sorry guys... -Wes.

Todd said...

You know the truth and it will make you free. Kind of ironic after being a Christian

smellincoffee said...

Congratulations to you! I came out of Oneness Pentecostalism as well, so I certainly know how you feel.

Anonymous said...

Michie,

I see myself in you about 5 years ago. Don't beat yourself up too much. I know it's hard to see it now, but I think you made the right decision. I came out fast like you. Based on your post you are a very passionate person. Now you are passionate about not believing.

Read this site some more and prepare to defend yourself to your family and friends. It gets better, I promise. In a couple of years, you won't forget and may even find yourself humming hymns every once in a while, but the freedom is priceless.

Welcome to the darkside. See you and the rest of the cool peeps in he11.

Bill

Anonymous said...

"I finally know what "I" feel and "I" believe. I can think for myself and trust my own instincts!"

:) I actually smiled and sighed a sigh of relief when I read that. That's exactly how I feel.

Kenny said...

Michie,

I was an instructor at a United Pentecostal Bible College for 6 years. When I left, it meant losing my vocation, my friends and horrifying my family. Some of my family will never be able to understand. It seems to help when you can articulate the questions that caused you to leave (when done tactfully). The forums here are a good place to practice.

Anonymous said...

At least you are getting out of the church.

There are too many who stay and try to do more damage from within, leading to many of our present problems.

Anonymous said...

I dont understand what did Jesus do to you? Your article mentions people but not that God did anything to you.

Thackerie said...

Anonymous, the question isn't what did god/jesus do to you, it's what did god/jesus do FOR you - and the obvious answer is "nothing."

More to the point, if you can't understand why the poster left christianity, I suggest you read the opening paragraph because it's plainly stated there, and, I believe, it's a sentiment common to us ex-christians:

"I can't pretend I believe when I know in my heart I don't."

Now do you get it?

Josh said...

Thackerie?

I affirm that in my life there is continuity of mind, body, and soul. I suggest that all think for themselves, and anyone who says one should not seek the truth and "just believe" is desiring to start a cult. I also affirm that in my life Christ has done much. However, I only hold to those things that are Biblical or "mere Christianity" Many denominations (holiness, apostolic, word of faith) include things that are extra biblical and these things... I can not affirm.

Peace,

Josh

Anonymous said...

Thackerie asked: Now do you get it?
No I still dont. I reread the first paragraph and it changed nothing. The author seems to be rejecting people who he believes are acting hypocritical judgmental and superior. Jesus never acted in those ways. So I again still wonder what Jesus did to him.

David said...

My own deconversion officially occured just four weeks ago so I'm still finding my way.
My comment for new ex-Christians is this: I view my time as a Christian (41 of my 49 years)as part of who I am now, part of my history. Just as my two tatoos are a permanent part of me and I won't remove them. They are part of my life story.
Be happy that you have finally found your way out of the lies.

Anonymous said...

david,
what is the truth then?

Lorena said...

Michie:
I'm not sure what to call myself, I just know that I don't believe in Christianity or the bible and I can hardly comprehend it myself sometimes.

Lorena:
How about ex-Christian! (And credit the webmaster for coining the expression).

Josh:
I also affirm that in my life Christ has done much.

Lorena:
No, Josh, you've done a lot for yourself. Feel proud of it. The illusion that God was there may have helped, but it was always you.

Josh:
I only hold to those things that are Biblical

Lorena:
That's too bad. Because the Bible is a fiction book. What you are saying is as ridiculous as saying that you only hold on to what The Lion the Witch, and the Wardrobe says.
For example, would you tell your child to never enter a closet because he will end up in the wilderness with the evil witch?

The Bible is a bunch of non sense written by primitives with a political agenda.

Anonymous:
What is truth?

Lorena:
Who cares.

Anonymous said...

Lorena anwered: who cares?
everyone cares. even you or you would not have posted a response.

Lorena said...

"everyone cares. even you or you would not have posted a response."

You wanna bet?

David said...

Michie - congratulations!

What is truth? At the moment I'm less concerned with that than those things that are demonstrably false - such as the bible. Read "The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein & Silberman for starters. Is the bible historically accurate in some areas? Yes, loosely. Is it historically accurate in all areas? No. It therefore contains stories that are not true. In other words, it contains lies.

If it, the bible, were true, we would not need apologetics. Apologetics being, to me: Xtians' apologies for having to make up excuses about why a lot of things in the bible make no sense.

Anonymous said...

David I know that the Bible contains many diffrent genres of writting written by many diffrent people over the course of thousands of years. I am also aware that there are things that were discovered that supposedly disproved statements in the Bible only years later something was discovered that showed the earlier conclusion had been reached in haste and wasnt true and the statement in the Bible was. I am unaware of a History book that contains the truth about God. Aesop told a story about the wind having a contest with the sun although thats historically untrue. the moral of the story was true. Historical accuracy is not neccasary to explore the truth of something. Many of the deepest ways of exploring the truth require no need of history.
As for apologists all belief systems have apologist even atheism has apologists. Some things are true and worth explaining and worth believing.

boomSLANG said...

As for apologists all belief systems have apologist even atheism has apologists.

Dear Anonymous,

Atheism is NOT a "belief system".

Have a good one.

Jamie said...

would you tell your child to never enter a closet because he will end up in the wilderness with the evil witch?

I sure wish someone had told ME that when I was a kid! ;-)

Anonymous said...

boomslang: yes it is

Anonymous said...

although i should qualify that previous post. in one sense you are right it is not a legitimat belief system in that there is no evidence to support atheism (ask any agnostic) consequently no system can be formed. yet in another sense most atheist will try to provide at set of arguments to support there (non)beliefs and even offer a reason for existence to base theirs and everyones life around. which is, life ends when you die and is meaningless.

.:webmaster:. said...

Anonymous, you are amazingly rude.

I believe in no-god, and my life is filled with meaning. How dare you say my life has no meaning. Is this what your religion teaches you? To denigrate and marginalize the lives of those who do not share your religious views?

This is the kind of thinking (that non-Christian lives have no value) that justified the genocides committed by Old Testament Jews, the persecution to death of uncountable numbers of "heretics, witches, etc.," by Christians for well over 1,000 years, and today's deaths at the hands of Muslims.

Your god is a bloodthirsty mother fucker! If that gives your life meaning (to worship such a horrific if not darkly comic, figure), then it just may be that you are living a life without meaning or purpose, because your life lacks root in reality.

Drug addicts and religion addicts have much in common. Neither has the ability to deal with the challenges of real life and instead choose to retreat into fantasy.

Anonymous said...

Please tell me about what real meaning there could possibly be for mankind. You must know that we are all going to die and as a consequence noone will have any knowledge of ever being alive. Please honestly tell me what meaning you find in that that is of any consequence to anyone.

Anonymous said...

God came to save and we killed Him and He loves us enough to forgive you and me. So what exactly did He do to you?

Anonymous said...

Why does the truth of death make you angry?

dano said...

Anonymous wrote:
"God came to save and we killed Him and He loves us enough to forgive you and me. So what exactly did He do to you?"

She made me, and she made you, and "It" made our cousins in the zoo, and there ain't one bit of difference between how "It" considers what any of us think.
Dan, Agnostic

Anonymous said...

webmaster: How can an atheist have moral outrage? What moral code can an atheist have and how did he come by it? Atheism cant even demonstrate Hitler was wrong. There is no judge to answer to but death and death judges all equally to oblivion. Good, bad, young, old, rich, poor of all gernerations all are destined for the final state of nonexistance. nothingness. no memory of this ever happining. That can be the only real teaching of atheism, or am I wrong? If so how?

stronger now said...

Anony-mouse,

Hitler killed jews because he believed that they were an inferior race of human(less than human) because of his christian beliefs. Much like you are doing now. It is because he was christian(you do realize he was roman catholic) that he was able to think of genocide as morally acceptable. An atheist can easily explain why religious genocide is wrong, but a christian would have a much harder time of explaining why genocide is wrong since their bible god clearly condones it.

boomSLANG said...

In regards to my denial that "Atheism"..i.e..the lack of belief in gods, is a "belief system", Anony chirps:

boomslang: yes it is

Hello? Anony? I have a question for you. Do you collect butterflies? No?..you say you don't collect butterflies? Let's be clear.....did you say that you do NOT collect butterflies?

Okay, if not, then how about if I told you that this fact qualifies you a "hobbiest"? Yes, Anony, if Atheism is a "belief", then NOT collecting butterflies is a "hobby". Do you think that you could kick-start your reasoning skills long enough to see the point? Or will you stay ignorant to the fact that NON-belief isn't "BELIEF"?

Fundonymous: although i should qualify that previous post. in one sense you are right it is not a[legitimate] belief system in that there is no evidence to support atheism (ask any agnostic) consequently no system can be formed.

How commendable of you to try and correct your asinine assertion. However, you're still miles off the mark. Hello?...you don't NEED "evidence" to deny a negative; one doesn't need to PROVE that one lacks belief in something, m'kay? Do you HAVE a belief in Leprechauns? No? Okay, PROVE that you DO NOT believe in them. Furthermore...PROVE that they don't exist.

'Sound silly? That's because it IS silly. If leprachauns exist, then the onus of proof is the responsibility of the one(s) INSISTING that they DO exist. 'Follow?

That said, where is your EVIDENCE that an invisible flying man-god-zombie exists?....since YOU are the one insisting that such a "being" exists. Waiting.

Anony: ... yet in another sense most atheist will try to provide at set of arguments to support[their] (non)beliefs and even offer a reason for existence to base theirs and[everyone's] life around. which is, life ends when you die and is meaningless.

Bzzzzzt, wrong again---not even close. Atheist's don't adhere to any doctrines that say to recruit, control, or guide other people's lives. YOU are the one saying that life is "meaningless" without your precious eternal reward, not us. Yes, "life ends", and we all die. So you've been right about one thing so far.

In any event, you were "dead" a trillion years ago. Did you "suffer" much from that? Was it a burden? No?..'didn't think so. Now..... put 2 and 2 together, if you dare.

Anony inquires: Please tell me about what real meaning there could possibly be for mankind. You must know that we are all going to die and as a consequence[no one] will have any knowledge of ever being alive. Please honestly tell me what meaning you find in that that is of any consequence to anyone.

What a silly question. You are conceding(for the sake of argument I take it) that we'll all be dead, but then asking of what "consequence" it will be to us while being dead..i.e.."no one will have any knowledge of ever being alive". DiNg DoNg? Hello?

I ask: If life allegedly never ends, then why does anything matter in this present moment?

If the carnival comes around once a year, you come to appreciate it whence it comes. If you're stuck at the carnival 24/7, it's not so special anymore, is it?.....no, in fact, it's "hell".

Fundonymous: God came to save and we killed Him and He loves us enough to forgive you and me. So what exactly did He do to you?

Presuppositions, presuppositions, and more presuppositions. And even if "God came" somewhere---who the f%ck is "we"??? Please don't me tell me that I'm guilty of murdering someone, okay? I find it really offensive.

And BTW, "He" didn't do anything to me-----"He" is DEAD. If "He" is NOT dead, then there was no "sacrifice".

Your little legend is full of circles, contradictions, and superstition.

May reason find you,

god 'less.

Anonymous said...

Then please explain how an atheist can conclude genocide is wrong.

boomslang this explanation will also be a form of atheist apologetic. which you say cant exist because you have no system of belief (although everybody believes in something even if it is the emptyness of the grave) none of the butterflies you collect matter your life will end and you will have no knowledge it ever happened.

dano said...

I don't know boomslang. How do you get through to an autistic Anonymous?

Any sentence of more than three or for words seems to completely disorientate his whole thought process.
Dan, Agnostic

boomSLANG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roger Rabbit said...

Anony: "Then please explain how an atheist can conclude genocide is wrong."

The exact same way a theist can conclude genocide is wrong!? Based on values.

Does it bother you that an individual atheist can actually make decisions in their life, based on personal values, without being hindered by a controlling party, or religious leader?

You have obviously been controlled so long, that you aren't aware that you can actually survive and make moral decisions without the aid of a master. How does it feel to be a moral slave, bound by the very words of an ancient tome and imperfect religious leader?

Want to know what replaced "your" religious framework and moral standards... it's called a democracy, and an entire legal system was established and run by diverse citizens, from Jews, Christians, Agnostics, Atheists, etc., etc.

boomSLANG said...

Anonymous Christian inquires: Then please explain how an atheist can conclude genocide is wrong.

Response: The person who doesn't believe in Poseiden, Osiris, Mithra, Yahweh, etc., can conclude that "genocide is wrong" because it causes unnecessary harm to other human beings. Additionally, the person who doesn't believe in Poseiden, Osiris, Mithra, Yahweh, etc., can further reason that since they wouldn't be keen on the idea of anyone murdering their own family or friends, that another human being wouldn't likely be keen on having it done to their family and friends. It's really elementary, and conducive to the social evolution of human beings. Of course, cultural relativity plays a role too. You wouldn't tell an island full of cannibals that eating human flesh is "wrong". 'Follow?

Anonymous Christian states: boomslang this explanation will also be a form of atheist apologetic. which you say cant exist because you have no system of belief (although everybody believes in something even if it is the emptyness of the grave).

Response: I never stated that "I don't believe in anything"; I stated that I don't believe in gods, and thus, how this non-belief is termed "Atheism", and how "Atheism", itself, is not a "belief system". So NO, my "explanation" is not an "apologetic". 'Got anything better?

PS: Yes Dano..it's a real challenge.

boomSLANG said...

Dear Anony-non,

The "cannibal" analogy was given, hypothetically, to illustrate the influence of cultural/social relativity where "morals" are concerned.

This might come as a shocker, but I'm not a cannibal. No, I'm not, because I wasn't born into a family/society of cannibals, thus, I can't give you details on the "whys" of what cannibals actually do, or even if such people still subsist. If such people do still exist, for all we know, they eat their dead, exclusively.

But all of that is neither here, nor there, Anony, because what it illustrates is that "morals" are NOT given to human beings by a "supernatural" being; there is no Universal "Divine morality".

Let me illustrate further. If one Saturday your deity ORDERED you to go to Home Depot and buy ten # of medium grade drive-way stones; to secure them in your trunk, and then the next day(Sunday), to go back to Home Depot and start throwing these stones at the employees who sold you the stones the day before, would you do it? Be honest.

You wouldn't do it, would you? No, of course not, and that is because you have come to know, through biological, social, and cultural evolution--in conjunction with what 'WE, the people' of this society collectively agree on--that such behavior is not "moral" behavior; that it causes unnecessary harm to other human beings. Are there exceptions to this "rule"? Yes, of course, yet, it has nothing to do with a set of "Divine Laws"; it likely has to do with a physiological malfunction of the individual---a defective brain.

For instance, do you recall the woman who made national headlines, Susan Smith, who claims "God" told her to drive her kids into a lake and drown them? Do you think "God" actually ordered this?..or is it more likely that she was mentally ill, at least temporarily?

BTW, please don't tell me that "God" wouldn't order such a thing---"He" drowned the whole earth, for cryin' out loud. Furthermore, please don't tell me that "God" wouldn't order you to stone people who work on Sunday, because it's one of the alleged "Divine commandments" from your alleged "God". Did you hear me? ..it's a COMMANDMENT to stone people who work on the Sabbath.

Now, Anony---how did you come to realize that such a "commandment" is "wrong"?????

boomSLANG said...

Anony asserts: its natural for them[cannibals] to be like that[eat human flesh].

Anony, back up---first, yes, it is "natural" to eat in order to sustain LIFE. And yes, what people deem "fit" to eat is purely subjective, which only MAKES my point.

Do you eat animals? If so, PETA will surely tell you that such a practice is "IMMORAL", even if you and I say it is perfectly "natural" to eat animals. 'Get it yet? A "God" doesn't dictate these things. Well?

Additonally, would you please put on your thinking cap for at least a 20 seconds, and consider that "Christians"--the ones who claim this "Divine morality"--- have not, do not, and it seems will NEVER, agree on what is "moral", and what is "immoral"? Hello?

Consider that IT IS they, people like yourself..e.g.."Christians", who fall on opposite sides of the fence concerning such important "moral" issues as capital punishment, abortion, right to life/die, war, birth control, etc., etc. This ALONE, should illustrate to you that there IS NO OBJECTIVE "DIVINELY INSPIRED" MORALS.

Furthermore, you didn't address the following issue:

boomSLANG inquires: "If one Saturday your deity ORDERED you to go to Home Depot and buy ten # of medium grade drive-way stones; to secure them in your trunk, and then the next day(Sunday), to go back to Home Depot and start throwing these stones at the employees who sold you the stones the day before, would you do it? Be honest."

followed by...

boomSLANG: "...please don't tell me that "God" wouldn't order you to stone people who work on Sunday, because it's one of the alleged "Divine commandments" from your alleged "God". Did you hear me? ..it's a COMMANDMENT to stone people who work on the Sabbath."

Now, Anony---how did you come to realize that such a "commandment" is "wrong"?????


Waiting.

boomSLANG said...

Oh, BTW, need I point out that "certain" Christians have rituals where they symbolically EAT the "body of Christ"? 'Got cannibalism?

boomSLANG said...

Anony: boomslang: To claim that people fall on opposite sides of the fence presupposes that there is an objective truth..

Hello?... it is YOU, Anony, the Christian/Theist, who is "PRESUPPOSING" that there IS a Divinely inspired objective "Truth" somewhere; I'm claiming that this notion is false(and absurd), by merely pointing out that these alleged "Christians" are divided on these alleged Universal "laws", THUS, making it clear to any *reasonable* person, that it boils down to what the INDIVIDUAL thinks on any given issue. Say it with me, now---I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L..i.e..subjective.

If your next move is to claim that some "Christians" are "wrong"; others "right"...then again, WHO determines this? Correct, the individual(s) determine it..i.e...subjective.

Anony continues: ... but if as you say that it proves there isnt one and that there is no basis for morality they you have reached an honest atheistic conclusion.

Bzzzzt, WRONG again. I'm sorry, there is no such thing as an "Atheistic conclusion", m'kay? Try and pay attention---to be "Atheist" isn't a statement of "knowledge"; it's a statement of non-belief. Furthermore, there is no "doctrine" that we adhere to, so thus, not only did I NOT say "there is no basis for morality"(please don't put words in my mouth)..but also, that the fact that there IS a basis for morality, has to do with humanity and having a naturalistic understanding of evolution...not "God"! Good grief!

Anony keeps trying: ...consequently you have also proved that genocide is not morally wrong from an honest atheistic standpoint.

Wrong, yet once more---practically every sentence you type, in fact.

Read carefully: Genocide IS "wrong", because(and here it is again) it causes UNNECESSARY HARM TO OTHER HUMAN BEINGS... which, "we, the people" have decided as a society, and through evolutionary development(s), that causing unnecessary harm to others isn't "right", or "good". 'Follow?

Anony: I actually believe in objective truth so this isnt much of a problem for me and I also believe God imprinted the knowledge of it in the consciences of all mankind.

Oh, so okay, now you're saying that our "natural" intuition is "Divinely inspired", yet, you still believe in an objective "Truth"; the kind that our "conscience" follows, as in, an alleged Universal "Truth" dictated by an alleged "Divine supernatural" being, which of course, you have zero evidence for either the deity, or the "Truth". Again, that is......not one shred of evidence to substantiate your "belief". Your hypothesis that we get our morality from a Divine being fails like a lead zepplin, as I have shown herein.

Anony(still trying) says: Fundamental principles like do not murder and do not steal have and to love your neighbor as yourself in my experience has had everyone on the same side of the religous fence even if they have trouble obeying it is admitted that the law is good as our consciences convict us of it.

Yes, "fundamental principles", like common %$#@ing sense. Are you telling me if you found out that "God" was a lie and your Holy book, null and void, that you'd instantaniously have the urge to KILL, STEAL, RAPE, AND LIE???? Please.

Anony: As far as eating animals God said it was ok for now. If your God tells you otherwise dont eat them

LMAO! Anony, I think you are being slightly disingenuous here. You eat meat BECAUSE IT TASTES GOOD, not because "God" says it's "ok".

(thinks to self--it's unreal what Theists will try to pull off)

Anony: If you dont acknowlegde a God you can do whatever you want even marry an animal.

Anony, some people have "funerals" for their animals. Some dress them in "people" clothes. Even Christians. So?... should we take that right away from them because you might find it "weird"??

Would you mind disclosing your age and gender? Be honest..."God" is watching.

boomSLANG said...

Yet, one more name-less Christian chimes in with:

I am Catholic and know very well that the church was accused of cannibalism almost 2000 years ago. It is a misunderstanding of the Eucharist.

Yes, yes..of course!....a "misunderstanding". Whatever it takes, right?

freeman said...

Matthew 5:17-19 (New International Version)

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them


So anony, since you are a christian, you believe in stoning to death disobedient children?

boomSLANG said...

One anonymous, or another, chirped: It only takes the truth

Yes, yes!..."truth". So who should we consult for that?...a "True Christian"?..or a Catholic? Or wait, do I have that backwards?

freeman said...

Explain anony.
By jesus saying that the old laws still applied, then he condoned the killing of disobedient children!

freeman said...

Another thing, if jesus had fulfilled the prophecies, then the Jews would have accepted him as the messiah.

The biggest problem the Jewish people had at the time was that they did not think this jesus even existed.

boomSLANG said...

Wilbur("Wilma", if female) quotes:

"Boomslang wrote: Genocide IS 'wrong', because(and here it is again) it causes UNNECESSARY HARM TO OTHER HUMAN BEINGS... which, 'we, the people' have decided as a society, and through evolutionary development(s), that causing unnecessary harm to others isn't 'right', or 'good'

Wilbur responds: How do you know that is exactly the point? So if society said it was ok to murder (and we all know at times it has) you still would hear your conscience tell you it is wrong and resist possibly to your own death.

Please pay attention: When I said "society", it was in the context of how we, this country, with our relatively young democracy, have agreed that such practices as "genocide", and homicide, etc are "wrong". I also added that evolution has made us more intelligent, and thus, more civilized.

Now let me ask you, Wibur---if "God" commanded you to murder those who would lead you away from your "God"(and we all know He has) would you do it? Please don't tell me that your God wouldn't ask you to do such a thing, because the murder of non-believers is condoned throughout your "Holy book".

Wibur: For genocide to happen in the first place requires one society to think it ok for them to do it.

Oh?...and does that include the people being slaughtered? Nonetheless, you've proffer nothing in the way of evidence that a religion, yours or anyone elses, has a monopoly on objective "morality". 'Got anything better???

Wibur quotes: "boomslang asked: Yes, yes!...'truth'. So who should we consult for that?...a 'True Christian'?..or a Catholic? Or wait, do I have that backwards?"

Wilbur responds: you should consult God and ask Him to guide you?

Bzzzzzt! WRONG. All sects; all denominations, either explicitly, or implicitly, already make this claim---that they have consulted "God" i.e.. Yahweh/Jesus/Spook, for her "guidance". Yet, interestingly, they remain divided on just was "God" says. It's very telling isn't it, Wilbur?....that it appears that there's no such thing as a "True Christian"?(rhetorical)

.:webmaster:. said...

Anonymous:

Unless you re-register with a unique name, all your posts will be deleted.

All your registered "anonymous" posts will be deleted.

.:webmaster:. said...

Everyone: Please do not feed the registered name "anonymous."

Thanks.

anonymous said...

boomslang: its precisely that subjective morality cannot demand a moral obligation. german society was just as civilised as everyone else. none of that changes anything it is still your opinion against hitlers and you are both going to be equally dead no matter what each of you believes. you are treated exactly the same by the grave in atheism their are no consequences to what each any person wrongly believes which what is meant by no moral obligation. without a standard if i say i do not want to commit genocide. i would be stating a fact about my wants and desires and nothing else. i would be stating that i want all cultures to thrive and choose to act on that desire. but this amounts to an admission that neither i or anyone else is obligated not to commit genocide. so what is compatible with moral obligation. well one that sees moral obligation as grounded in its creator, that sees moral obligation as rooted in the fact that we have been created with a purpose and for an end. that is the religous view.
1)real moral obligation is a fact. we are really truly objectively obligated to do good and avoid evil.
2)either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the religous one.
3)but the atheistic one is incompatible with there being moral obligation.
4)therefore the religous view is correct.

anonymous said...

boomslang asked: if "God" commanded you to murder those who would lead you away from your "God"(and we all know He has) would you do it? Please don't tell me that your God wouldn't ask you to do such a thing, because the murder of non-believers is condoned throughout your "Holy book".
the story of God and man is summed up in one story. Jesus on the cross and His ressurection. That is the Christian message that is the key to understanding everything in the old testament. Reflect on the murder of Gods Son to understand the rest.
I ask again "What has God done to us?" What is it that we did to Him and why did He allow it?

spike said...

webmaster: before you start deleting i just figured out how to change my display name correctly. i thought i had done it right but i was wrong. if i did it right this time i should now appear as spike

Jim Arvo said...

Spike (?) said "...so what is compatible with moral obligation. well one that sees moral obligation as grounded in its creator, that sees moral obligation as rooted in the fact that we have been created with a purpose and for an end. that is the religous view."

But you have argued in a circle here. You claim that "grounding" in a creator results in a moral obligation, whereas without it all we have is (in effect) cultural relativism. (This claim is patently false, by the way, which I've explained ad nauseam on this site. But I'm going to ignore that for the moment.) Yet this "grounding" you speak of--this "creator"--is also a cultural artifact. Different cultures align with different god-concepts. Even within cultures there is a huge diversity of religions (as in the US). And even within a single religion (e.g. Christianity), there are widely varying beliefs among sects. So the "grounding" that you posit is illusory.

But I'll take this a step further. Even if you were to ignore the cultural relativity of god-concepts and stipulate that ONE PARTICULAR doctrine, such as that laid out in the Christian Bible, is the absolute word of god, you have still made no progress toward a workable system of morality. The Decalogue, for example, consists in a dogmatic collection of injunctions, not *principles*. This makes it completely useless in making the truly vexing tradeoffs that permeate actual societies. Thou shall not kill? Well, what about self-defense? How clear, imminent, and severe must the threat be in order for the self-defense loophole to apply? Does it apply to the protection of property? To other people's property? To one's ideology? Livestock? That, of course, is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Spike also said "...but the atheistic one is incompatible with there being moral obligation."

That is complete nonsense. In order to make such a statement you must completely ignore the fact that we are biological organisms, and highly social ones at that. You might just as well assert that pain would not exist if there were no god.

boomSLANG said...

All,

Since it's been requested of us to NOT respond to Registered Anonymous, I must honor that request. On the other hand, I sure hope his/her posts get deleted soon, as it pains me to look at their logical fallacy, strawman arguments, circular reasoning, and atrocious grammar.

Ooops...this just in:

Apparently Registered Anonymous has managed to figure out how to create an fictitious name. Okay. More for "Spike" later...not that Jim needs reinforcements.

Boom'

stronger now said...

Spike/anony said:

"the story of God and man is summed up in one story. Jesus on the cross and His ressurection. That is the Christian message that is the key to understanding everything in the old testament."


Your right, the story of christ on a cross and subsequent resurrection IS the key to understanding the old testament. Once you understand that it is ridiculous nonsense, you realize that it is all nonsense.

Jim Arvo said...

BoomSLANG said "Since it's been requested of us to NOT respond to Registered Anonymous, I must honor that request."

Ooops. I forgot about that. Sheesh, I must be one of the prime offenders of feeding trolls around here. Sorry about that.

Audie said...

Since he's not annoy anymore...

Spike (?) Wrote: ”None of that changes anything it is still your opinion against hitlers and you are both going to be equally dead no matter what each of you believes. you are treated exactly the same by the grave in atheism their are no consequences to what each any person wrongly believes which what is meant by no moral obligation."

Yes Spike, that is true. The grave treats us all the same- both hitlers and “saints”. Kind of sucks, doesn’t it? I know that I’d sure like for there to be some kind of punishment for all those evil bastards who have hurt me throughout my life. But my wanting it, or even hoping for it, will not make it true. Just like my wanting to go to a wonderful, happy place forever will not make it true either. Reality is reality, regardless of what we want. And the reality is that god is a myth and religion is lie.

eel_shepherd said...

WM, to anonymous before he was born again as Spike, wrote:
"...it just may be that you are living a life without meaning or purpose...
"...Drug addicts and religion addicts have much in common..."

Which is not to say that they don't have something that gives purpose and direction to their daily actions...

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