We are one with the Cosmos
Sent in by Insanity_personified
Well I guess it could be argued that I was bound to de-convert from the Christian religion. My testimony isn't as dramatic as many here but I'll give it to you anyway
First my age. I'm 15 years old, 16 in August. Some around me take this to mean that I am incapable of making informed decisions about my own life, what I want it to be, what my ambitions are, etc. Unfortunately for me one of these people happens to be my own father. This may not seem important but it was ultimately one simple statement from my dad that sent my Christian belief to hell (pun, yes)
I was/still am being raised Christian, in a Christian home, at a Christian school run by a Christian church. Religion is everywhere in my life much to my dismay, and thus I didn't think to question anything for a very long time... but one thing stayed the same no matter how much into Christianity I was. My father loves Jesus... even as a seven-year-old I felt neglected by his seeming indifference towards me and love of his most elusive god, I freely admit I have "daddy issues" because for the greater part of my life (continuing into today) I feel and have always felt completely rejected by him. One incident in particular happened when I was around 10. I was a very early comer to puberty and all the random erections I kept having and the "wet dreams" were starting to scare me. Of course having had anti-intimacy Christian propaganda shoved down my throat from a very early age I didn't know these were simply my body's ways of preparing me to reproduce. I thought I was somehow unclean for having "impure" thoughts (stupid I know)
Well anyway I asked my dad, expecting him to give me me some semblance of fatherly advice. Instead I was shocked when he screamed at me saying discussion of this was "unholy" and to never touch myself. Needless to say it crushed me to know I couldn't even expect my own dad to pull his head out of his own ass long enough to help me when I needed advice
This pretty much set up my de-conversion. Again, it sounds stupid and rather silly but it's what happened and in a way I'm glad it did. I started to read about puberty and adolescence from one of those damned "secular" books and learned that my body and it's functions were nothing to be ashamed of at all. I learned what causes erections and how to make them go away, why I have wet dreams, and why girls all of a sudden seemed so amazing to me. It all is regulated by chemicals in my brain and is just my brain's signal to my body to begin adulthood. Why is this bad? I thought to myself. Why does Jesus hate me for being the person he designed me to be?
That was just one revelation... my other and most important ones started when I got into two things that are still some of my favorite things today: science and philosophy. I remember watching COSMOS by Dr Carl Sagan and being filled with a sense of awe and wonder at the beauty of the natural world. It was something religion tries to capture but never truly can. It was REAL spirituality. I learned that all of nature is propelled by the simple urge to survive and live and progress as a species. This spoke to me like nothing else did. At a time when I was pretty much crushed emotionally, Dr Sagan's show filled me with hope and child-like awe -- we are literally one with the cosmos!
After watching that show and learning about astronomy, my faith slowly crumbled away. I can't say I miss it much, my atheism brings me a sense of simple joy. I am no longer deluded by a cult that was hijacked by the Romans for political control. The universe is my god, and nature is my dogma. I now am what could be called a "closet atheist." My dad continues to try to convince me that I am too feeble minded to make my own informed decisions, and I continue to be surrounded by mostly Christians and go to a Christian school. But at least now I can think about my problems with a clear head and open mind... which couldn't be said about me as a Christian
Sorry if this sounds like babbling... I've had a bad day
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Well I guess it could be argued that I was bound to de-convert from the Christian religion. My testimony isn't as dramatic as many here but I'll give it to you anyway
First my age. I'm 15 years old, 16 in August. Some around me take this to mean that I am incapable of making informed decisions about my own life, what I want it to be, what my ambitions are, etc. Unfortunately for me one of these people happens to be my own father. This may not seem important but it was ultimately one simple statement from my dad that sent my Christian belief to hell (pun, yes)
I was/still am being raised Christian, in a Christian home, at a Christian school run by a Christian church. Religion is everywhere in my life much to my dismay, and thus I didn't think to question anything for a very long time... but one thing stayed the same no matter how much into Christianity I was. My father loves Jesus... even as a seven-year-old I felt neglected by his seeming indifference towards me and love of his most elusive god, I freely admit I have "daddy issues" because for the greater part of my life (continuing into today) I feel and have always felt completely rejected by him. One incident in particular happened when I was around 10. I was a very early comer to puberty and all the random erections I kept having and the "wet dreams" were starting to scare me. Of course having had anti-intimacy Christian propaganda shoved down my throat from a very early age I didn't know these were simply my body's ways of preparing me to reproduce. I thought I was somehow unclean for having "impure" thoughts (stupid I know)
Well anyway I asked my dad, expecting him to give me me some semblance of fatherly advice. Instead I was shocked when he screamed at me saying discussion of this was "unholy" and to never touch myself. Needless to say it crushed me to know I couldn't even expect my own dad to pull his head out of his own ass long enough to help me when I needed advice
This pretty much set up my de-conversion. Again, it sounds stupid and rather silly but it's what happened and in a way I'm glad it did. I started to read about puberty and adolescence from one of those damned "secular" books and learned that my body and it's functions were nothing to be ashamed of at all. I learned what causes erections and how to make them go away, why I have wet dreams, and why girls all of a sudden seemed so amazing to me. It all is regulated by chemicals in my brain and is just my brain's signal to my body to begin adulthood. Why is this bad? I thought to myself. Why does Jesus hate me for being the person he designed me to be?
That was just one revelation... my other and most important ones started when I got into two things that are still some of my favorite things today: science and philosophy. I remember watching COSMOS by Dr Carl Sagan and being filled with a sense of awe and wonder at the beauty of the natural world. It was something religion tries to capture but never truly can. It was REAL spirituality. I learned that all of nature is propelled by the simple urge to survive and live and progress as a species. This spoke to me like nothing else did. At a time when I was pretty much crushed emotionally, Dr Sagan's show filled me with hope and child-like awe -- we are literally one with the cosmos!
After watching that show and learning about astronomy, my faith slowly crumbled away. I can't say I miss it much, my atheism brings me a sense of simple joy. I am no longer deluded by a cult that was hijacked by the Romans for political control. The universe is my god, and nature is my dogma. I now am what could be called a "closet atheist." My dad continues to try to convince me that I am too feeble minded to make my own informed decisions, and I continue to be surrounded by mostly Christians and go to a Christian school. But at least now I can think about my problems with a clear head and open mind... which couldn't be said about me as a Christian
Sorry if this sounds like babbling... I've had a bad day
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Comments
I really wished I had deconverted at age 15 rather than age 25 -- I would have learned so much and grown so much during those years. Instead, I stayed stunted because of the demented Christian thought system.
Don't worry -- wet dreams, masturbation, etc. is very healthy and normal, if you didn't, that would be cause for concern and a doctor's visit.
The fundys will continue to try to convence you that there is something wrong with you, but you sound perfectly normal to me.
Don't listen to the religious idiots, they've been decieved by nonreason and fear.
You do not need a book to tell you right from wrong, you already know, just live by what you know is right, not what someone tells you is right.
If science is wrong, the Bible is true.
If science is true, the Bible is wrong.
The Bible is wrong! It has always been wrong.
I applaud you for coming to these realizations early on. I, too, started to have these thoughts right around 14 or 15 years old. Mind you I'm female so didn't have to deal with an "unruly" member as you do, but it seemed that with puberty, at least for me, came revalation.
Please stick with it, and don't let yourself be dragged back down. I hope you know that you have some really tough years ahead of you. BUT also know that it will be over soon enough, and you will be old enough to leave home and pursue your own interests. Smile and nod if you're still forced to go to church (which, sounds like you would be) but know in your logical mind that it is all a show. If you can keep your sanity for the next few years, you have a life of happiness, logic and reason ahead of you.
One more word of advice. Your dad, tho misguided, only has your best interests at heart. Your father seems to be deluded into thinking that your best interests lie in church and religion, but you know better. Just because you know better, doesn't mean your dad doesn't love you. He does, just in his own way.
I wish you the best!! Stay strong!!
Lee
"First my age. I'm 15 years old, 16 in August. Some around me take this to mean that I am incapable of making informed decisions about my own life, what I want it to be, what my ambitions are, etc......................."
Dano here I/P,
I am 71 years old and worry constantly that we as a nation have dumbed down via political correctness, religious fundamentalism, and a lack of vitality that used to be infused into our population by intelligent although poor people.
It seems now that our immigrants are either ragheads that have neither a desire to assimilate into our society, but only want to convert us to Islam, or the poorest of the poor and those without any education. These people are sucking the life out of America, sending all of their money home, and they care nothing about the country that they have fled to, looking for a job and a paycheck.
When I read your post I will have to admit that I didn't believe that you were 15, but couldn't find a hint of dishonesty in the whole story.
You give me at least a glimmer of hope that all of our youth aren't total idiots. America needs you I/P! America needs leaders. Men like Jefferson, and Franklin, and Washington, and Paine and Adams, etc.
I/P most of the great men who helped found this country and write the constitution were Deists, not Christians. They publicly professed a belief in God but some openly ridiculed the bible as the nonsense that it is. Read:
( http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.html )
I/P some very intelligent people remain controlled by the Cult of Christianity all of their lives. It seems that we have the ability to compartmentalize our brains, with one part believing in magic, and another being perfectly rational.
Because you father passed to you, through his DNA some pretty good intelligence genes, I would say that he is one of those very smart people who can forever find a way to defend his emotionally driven beliefs, but at least he has given you a good brain.
You are one lucky kid to have the ability for clear critical thought at such an early age. If I were you I would head for college and the presidency, By the time you are 35 and old enough to run for the president of the USA your thinking skills should be awesome.
As for your erections be proud of them, glory in them, for when you find a girl as smart as you are, one whose sexuality isn't all screwed up with Judaeo Christianity, you will have all of the magic you will ever need, and it will sustain you, all of your life, as long as you keep it healthy and realize that you were meant to use it,
Dan, Agnostic
Your ability to articulate such deep and meaningful concepts is astounding for such a young man. My son is fourteen years old and very gifted mathematically, but struggles in the way of communication. He just isn't wired that way, and that is okay, because he is complex and beautiful just the way he is.
Your ability to sift through the dung of Christianity at such a young age is also astounding. It was at sixteen that I converted to that awful religion that professes to "hate sin but love the sinner" and it wasn't until sixteen years later that I found the courage to leave the lie of religion, and yet you, at fifteen have been able to see for yourself what so many of us were blind to for far too long.
Your father, despite his possible intellectual superiority in other areas, is an ignorant and superstitious old man. He should be humbled by you, but alas, he may never learn to appreciate the gift that you are. Remain undettered, because he "knows not what he does" for you are anything but "feeble minded". Your situation is a pure example of what Friedrich Nietzsche once said: "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
All I can tell you is that I and many other men (if not all) have gone through the very same issues with sexual "overload" at your age. The best advise I could tell you (without going into the details of my life experience) is that if you allow yourself to over-indulge in your sexual desires, you may very well carry yourself into a state of morale obscurity with your sexuality.
That is, if you apply no moral constraints to your sexual fantasies and indulge in sexual relief at all opportunities, you risk desensitizing your morality. This is just one of the countless ways you can mess up your moral compass in this world. Because of the massive freedom, in the way of human sexuality, in this world, I hope to warn you to the dangers that could lie ahead if your don't exercise temperance. This is the same as with any other sinful temptation in this world, be it lust, money, power, hatred, etc... If you chase it and you love it and you say no to God, He may very well leave you alone to your vice(s). If you're truly blessed, He'll step in and punish you now and then, trying to lead you back to Him, like any good father would do.
As beautiful as women are, you should know, and trust me, despite my conversion to Christianity and my married state, they will never stop being beautiful. God made them beautiful...that's a good thing, the challenge is to grow beyond loving them as sexual objects (which they often are in this world, especially with young men) but to work to love one of them for their heart and let your sexuality be that special God given gift that you share together after marriage. Please don't let physical temptations lead you away from what is really good for your soul. I hope you find that a caring heart, a capable personality and shared values are non-negotiable in your search for love.
The reason I focussed on your sexuality, is that you appear to be using your father's failure to be caring to your plea on this particular issue, as the reason to let your faith crumble. This tells me that there is a very good chance that you are subconsciously or consciously surrendering your faith to the most tempting sin at your age. Please don't take the bait. Yes, the objectification of women today is through-the-roof but no vice will ever need to dominate your life.
If you doubt the power of Jesus, just try saying out loud, the next time you're being tempted with something that you know to be wrong "In the name of my Lord, Jesus Christ, Satan depart!" with sincerity. That's right, actually say it out loud, that's a requirement. What your father loves and believes in is not a hoax, one of the biggest hoax of this world is the belief that God does not exist. I'll hope and pray that you don't let your father's imperfections and his apparent lost sense of priority, be your "reason" to say no to God. I think he should have been more caring and patient with your question but then again, we are just getting your side of the story...
Stay with God and be a lover of righteousness and watch Him shower His love on you in ways you could not imagine.
Blessings and may God grace you with renewed faith.
If your god exists, it can show up aaaaany time now. For starters, we could use a cure for AIDS, some help with global warming, and an end to warfare and human rights violations in dozens of countries. A non-participating god is, in my opinion, no better than a nonexistent one.
And, Insanity_personified, I'm sorry that your father chose his invisible friend over you. When the time comes, may you find safe passage into a fulfilling adult life in the real world.
Do not listen to these infidels, they are against Jesus and his kingdom.
Just continue to live in a mental delusional fantasy as the above anonymous would prefer to have you live, so you can wonder around in a confused state the rest of your life and destroy your mind and your future.
Those people that believe in Satan and the imaginary Jesus are not mentally stable and have been deceived by a myth and lies.
By having a belief, it gives them a feeling of superiority above others that do not have a belief.
Religious beliefs envict self-righteousness, that's religions' goal is to segregate people and to spread hatred between religious denominations and nonbelievers.
Religious beliefs were invented to destroy mankind, from hatred and war.
"Young man, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah,.......................blah."
"If you doubt the power of Jesus, just try saying out loud, the next time you're being tempted with something that you know to be wrong "In the name of my Lord, Jesus Christ, Satan depart!" with sincerity. That's right, actually say it out loud, that's a requirement. Blah, blah, blah.........................................blah"
The question of the day!
Can this anonymous possibly be serious?
How did he ever attain the mental stability, to earn enough money, to be able to go out and buy a computer?
Dan, Agnostic
...the next time you're being tempted with something that you know to be wrong "In the name of my Lord, Jesus Christ, Satan depart!"
Ok lemme try it: I was wishing this xian idiot would learn to use reason, so "In the name of the Load, Jesus Christ, Satan depart!"
Did it work? Hell no, that crap never works.
Masturbate all you want. It's not a sin. If you ignore it, good luck getting anything else done in life. Its distracting.
Since you appear to be a budding philosopher, check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism
Ethical Hedonism - if it bring pleasure and doesn't hurt anyone else, its ok.
It's probably not good to hurt yourself either.
Part of the wiccan rede:"...an if it harm none, do what ye will."
Doing no harm is a part of most religions.(the ones I am familiar with anyway)It doesn't take a god to come to the conclusion that hurting others (and yourself) is wrong.
It takes belief in a god to come to the conclusion that sperm are people too.
May Peace and Love prosper
"When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, the world shall have peace" - Jimi Hendrix
- Married with children in a very loving family, I must thank God!
- Professional engineer with the same company for 15 years
- Received my bachelor of engineering degree and graduated in the top 10% of my class
- No problems maintaining frienships, my very best friends continue to be those guys (and now their wives) that I met during my University years
- My wife if the most amazing person I've met, but I'm definitely biased on that opinion. She also holds a professional position in the technology field.
So Mr. Bill, you said I'm:
- probably a recovering addict or slightly unstable person
- ignore them as extreme religiosity married to an emotionally immature personality
- He has a lot of growing up to do, Christian or not.
My only real addiction would be my objectification of women, until God showed me the destructive pattern of my personal vice. Once that happened, He presented me, a most undeserving creature, with a most wonderful wife.
Sorry to disapoint you Mr. Bill, but I've been blessed to be a part of the most stable family I know. Nothing really unstable with me or anyone in the family either. My wife is still more mature than I am...but isn't that the case with all men. ;)
Guess who I hope grows up someday? People like you Sir, elitists, that judge others so quickly, simply because they have beliefs that differ from yours...
Do you have any facts, historical, scientific, or any other to support your little bye-bull serman? I didn't think so. You come here preaching to us like we were a part of your danm choir, but were not. We do not believe that horrendous book of yours. Your god, if he were real, would be a vicious, evil tyrant, whom I would no longer give one second of prayer, praise, or any recognition to.
I was a xian for nearly 30 years, went to bible college, and held ministry positions in churches prior to joining the Army. And what a wasted life it was. I wish I had seen clearly through the lies at 15, instead of 39.
Sir, you are delusional!! Your god is a myth and your religion is a lie. You come here to a site of freethinking, intellegent people who have seen through the bullshit that is the bible, yet you still feel the need to preach to us? You are kidding, right? You have to be. Next time you come here, you had better equip yourself with a little more than a 1900 year old book of mythology. Because we're not buying it.
OMFG!!! I'm at work right now and REALLY needed that laugh!!!
Please use a different moniker, or all your posts will be deleted.
Thanks.
Here's my last post, thanks for letting me contribute to your site.
--------last post that was deleted due to missing moniker--------
I never asked you or anyone to buy it Audie, I was talking to the young man. You have your desires to deter him from his creator, I have my desires to let him know that his creator loves him.
You call yourself "freethinking", but yet you don't allow your mind to be free to realize you can't disprove my beliefs. You cannot conclusively prove or disprove theism or atheism so...who's the free thinker between you and I?
Who's attacking the other's beliefs?
Who's attacking the other's character?
I have personal reasons that confirm my belief in Jesus but I actually would not bother sharing them with any of you. Why? Well, let's just say I've been around a while and I understand enough to know that nothing I say, could ever bring you or anyone else to become a Christian (ie. convince you to believe in Jesus as your savior).
It starts from the inside.
Any reason why you had to address God before you confirmed for us your deep laughter at His "non-existence"?
Take care of yourself,
Sincerely.
Bob
There you go. There's the root of the problem, and I can't for the life of me understand how you fail to see it. Don't you understand? You are convinced that a 'creator' of some sort of exists, all the while failing to provide evidence for your convictions. You are trying to assert to this individual that your beliefs are accurate and true, and as result, are trying to lure him to your way of thinking - but you continually fail to put forth any evidence that would demonstrate any of your beliefs to be true.
"You call yourself "freethinking", but yet you don't allow your mind to be free to realize you can't disprove my beliefs."
'Scuse me? SURE we can't *prove" that what you believe isn't true! Most of us here ADMIT that! Much the same that you cannot *prove* there is a wish-granting magical toaster oven on the planet Pluto! Can you prove there isn't? No you can't! See? You think that because someone can't prove that variable "X" (whatever it might be) doesn't exist, then by default we should just accept that is DOES. Is this your logic? Yikes!
But the real issues is this: It is YOU making the fantastic claims that go against all of nature, science, and physics; YOU. So guess what? The onus is on YOU to demonstrate that your beliefs are true; it is NOT the skeptics chore to prove that it is FALSE, just like it is not YOUR chore to prove my magical toaster doesn't exist.
...BTW: There is no magical toaster. It was just an analogy...
"You cannot conclusively prove or disprove theism or atheism so...who's the free thinker between you and I?"
Ummm. Apparently we are, because, most of us arrive at our conclusions by virtue of the evidence surrounding us. I don't know about you, but I let the evidence determine how I interpret life on earth, not some dusty old book...
"Who's attacking the other's beliefs?"
Who's trying to convince other people of the validity of their beliefs all the while not having anything to back it up?? You.
"Who's attacking the other's character? I have personal reasons that confirm my belief in Jesus but I actually would not bother sharing them with any of you."
Good. Because those are personal things that ultimately have zero effect reality or on anybody else but the person experiencing them.
"Why? Well, let's just say I've been around a while and I understand enough to know that nothing I say, could ever bring you or anyone else to become a Christian (ie. convince you to believe in Jesus as your savior)."
Naw. It's just that everything you have to say it patently unconvincing because it lacks any substance,, and is usually the same old tripe we've all either heard before, or dispensed ourselves. You give up and admit defeat because you have run out of logical avenues. One piece of evidence, please. That's all. My souls at stake. Won't you even try?? Yeesh.
"It starts from the inside.
Any reason why you had to address God before you confirmed for us your deep laughter at His "non-existence"?
Don't understand. Don't care to as I think this may be a rebuttal to some prior post. But as for me, I don't address GOD, much the same way I don't address anything else for which I am not totally convinced of its existence.
"Take care of yourself,
Sincerely.
Bob"
You, too. Come back with some proof. -Wes.
The part you can't seem to grasp, is that your "desires" to let non-theists know that a deity "loves" them is utterly USELESS, until you can put forth evidence that a deity exists. Duh? Merely talking about a deity won't bring it to life, Bobby, just like talking about Poseiden won't bring him to life. 'Follow?
Bob: You call yourself "freethinking", but yet you don't allow your mind to be free to realize you can't disprove my beliefs.
Non-believers don't have that burden, Bobby; the burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. Um, that'd be you. If I tell you that invisible purple pixies live on Pluto, you need not, or for that matter, cannot, prove me wrong...especially if my "evidence" boils down to "faith". In any event, just because you can't prove me wrong, doesn't mean that invisible purple pixies exist on Pluto, does it? Exactly. Learn something for a change.
Bob: You cannot conclusively prove or disprove theism or atheism so...who's the free thinker between you and I?
The freethinker is the one who can say, "until objective evidence is put forth for a 'god', I don't know if one exists, or not." Mind you, one can hold a position of neutrality, and still not believe a deity exists.
On the other hand, the enslaved thinker would be the one who claims to have a monopoly on absolute "Truth", via the pages of 2000 yr-old text book, and thus, has no free incentive to look for other possibilites. Religious convictions are the end of knowledge, Bobby.
Bob: I have personal reasons that confirm my belief in Jesus but I actually would not bother sharing them with any of you.
That actually works out great for everybody, because personal testimony is not considered Universal evidence---that is, unless you'll let the personal testimony of Muslims convince you that Allah is the One True God?
Well, Bobby?
Bob: It starts from the inside.
Right, and that means being intellectually honest with yourself. Face it, you've never seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched a god, and you know it. Time to get real, Bob.
Bye now.
I was referring to the use of “OMFG”.
Thanks for your response Wes. Maybe you’ll appreciate my point about proof if I state it this way: I cannot prove the existence of God, nor can you prove that you came to exist without God. Plain and simple, you simply cannot prove to anyone that you evolved, as I assume all atheists must believe in evolution?
If you cannot prove what you believe in and I cannot prove what I believe in, then I ask; who is the freethinker between us?
You are free to believe in evolution, I wish you well with that belief. On the other hand, I am free to believe in a creator. If you were a true freethinker, you should probably wish me well with my beliefs, no?
If we appreciate that neither one of us has a bullet proof case against the other’s beliefs, then it must and should be acceptable, as freethinkers, that we accept contributions from both “camps” when a young man is on the verge of choosing one of these two worldviews, no?
I would certainly hope so...
If the young man chooses your worldview, he has made his choice as a free being. If he ever wishes to change his mind and return to the Christian worldview, he is always welcomed.
Thanks for the chat,
Bob
I will agree with you on this one point. No problem!
"Plain and simple, you simply cannot prove to anyone that you evolved, as I assume all atheists must believe in evolution?"
Umm, here is another small issue. Remember where I stated that I base my interpretation of my life on earth from the evidence that surrounds me? Well, the one thing that evolution has over your belief system is that evolution, even though it may not have all the answers, has tons of documented evidence to support it that is based on real-world science, using real world observation, and has survived the scrutiny of real-world scientists.
There is real-world, hard factual data that supports the idea of evolution (many orders of magnitude more than any creationist theory has), whereas with the 'god-did-it' theory that you propose, well, all you really have is a book of legends from a superstitious age who's authorship remains dubious to this day.
On one other point, y'know, even if you did have some kind of irrefutable proof that we are the product of some creator, now you have the burden of proving it was your particular deity that was responsible for it. So, first, what evidence do you have that a god created us? Second, what evidence is there to lead us to believe that it was YOUR god and not some other god/gods/or perhaps some kind of extra-terrestrial super intelligence??
"If you cannot prove what you believe in and I cannot prove what I believe in, then I ask; who is the freethinker between us?"
I don't believe in anything. The word 'believe' to me is just to loose of a word to describe the level of commitment to my particular world views. Let's instead say that I have *confidence* in the theory of evolution, based on the knowledge gleaned from the studies of evolutionary biology, etc.
"You are free to believe in evolution, I wish you well with that belief. On the other hand, I am free to believe in a creator. If you were a true freethinker, you should probably wish me well with my beliefs, no?"
I do wish you well with your beliefs. You are definitely free to believe what it is you wish to believe! What a great country! No question! BUT.. I draw the line when people attempt to convince me (or others) of some kind of 'truth' without providing even a shred of evidence to support it. -Wes.
"You call yourself "freethinking", but yet you don't allow your mind to be free to realize you can't disprove my beliefs. You cannot conclusively prove or disprove theism or atheism so...who's the free thinker between you and I?"
Like I said, I was a xian for 30 years. Went to bible college, the ministry, player in xian bands, witnessed (sometimes door to door), and did all the pious things that make me a True Xian(TM). It was when I stopped following blindly and started using my brain that I saw through the facade that is Xianity. So yes, Bob, I am a true free thinker. And if you can convience me that Xianity, as well as your version of it, is true, then I will concider re-converting. Good Luck.
I never said that a "creator" does not exist. I don't know that, and NEITHER DO YOU!!! But I am convienced beyond all doubt that it is NOT the Judeo-xian god. He is a myth that does not stand up to the scrutiny of history and reason. Maybe there is a "higher power" out there somewhere, but I cannot believe that such entity gives a damn about life on this planet.
You say that the evidence for your bekief is all around you. I tend to be the opposite. The more I examine the natural order life on planet Earth, the further I get from the whole "intellegent design" idea. Because quite frankly, I don't see the nature or life as intellegently designed. If all this were created by someone, then he/she/it was prety vicious, hateful, and downright cruel.
In closing Bob, let me express how precious this life is. Neither of us really know what is waiting for us when we die, so lets live the best lives we can. Not in the reckless abondonment of pure hedonism, but getting the most out of our existance. It really breaks my heart to see people throw thier lives away living in the fear and hate of Xianity. We a humans need to live for each other, help each other, and make the world a better place for our fellow man (mankind), not arguing, fighting, and killing each other about who's version of what myth is accurate.
Peace Out!
Audie
Personally, no, I can't appreciate it, and here's why:
Similar to how I can offer evidence("prove") that I didn't come to "exist" by the stork; nor was I carried to term inside a pumpkin; nor was I hatched from an egg; nor was I transported here by Alien beings, I can offer convincing evidence("prove") that I did not just spontaneously appear in the maternity wing of the hospital. No Bob, had not two natural human beings decided to have sexual intercourse many moons ago, I(boomslang) would NOT "exist". Hence, I can categorically state that there was NOTHING "supernatural" about how I came to exist. We can observe, AND explain, every single step of the way as to how I, personally, came to exist.
Now, on the other hand, if you want to employ the legendary hypothesis that a "God" created the first two human "prototypes", and that these two beings were technically everyone's "great-grandparents", then no, I cannot disprove that hypothesis, as ridiculous as it is. And likewise, nor can either one of us "disprove" that invisible green leprechauns didn't "create" the first two proto-types in a petri dish in a laboratory on planet Zotar.
Bob?..you just don't get it, do you? You see, once you establish "faith" as the basis for your hypothesis as to how I/we came to exist, there then becomes an INFINITE(never ending)list of possibilites as to how it all went down. So then, your specific hypothesis, which is based on revelation that you accept on "faith", is only one of limitless possibilities, yet, you only accept one...YOURS. The onus of proving that YOUR hypothesis is absolutley true, and limitless others are false, falls in YOUR lap. Please---STOP trying to shift the burden of proof, and "level" the playing field. Thanks.
Bob continues: You are free to believe in evolution, I wish you well with that belief. On the other hand, I am free to believe in a creator. If you were a true freethinker, you should probably wish me well with my beliefs, no?
Bob, evolution has been scientifically established as both theory AND fact. If you deny it, then you may as well deny Gravitational theory and Atomic theory, while you're at it. If you hold to your convictions in spite of the evidence against it, I don't exactly call that "free" thinking.
Notwithstanding, even if you remain impenetrably ignorant on the matter, yes, you are perfectly free to believe as you wish. However, when your personal beliefs become collect beliefs, and those collective beliefs encroach the established separation of church and state.....then it becomes a problem, Bob. Remember, we not only have freedom of religion, but freedom from it, too.
Bye now.
"...I cannot prove the existence of God, nor can you prove that you came to exist without God. Plain and simple, you simply cannot prove to anyone that you evolved,...
"...If you cannot prove what you believe in and I cannot prove what I believe in, then I ask; who is the freethinker between us?"
The one requiring the fewest unproven assumptions; the fewest moving parts. I thought you said you were an engineer.
Wes's model = natural processes.
Your model = God + natural processes.
Your lack of proof for the existence of a God, and lack of evidence by which one could identify and associate such a word reliably with an object/form, relieves everyone of the need to search aimlessly.
That which caused the question; is the initial answer, until an extension of understanding is available due to valid and reliable information.
Bob, your God stops at you... and to suggest your God is "real" beyond your imagination is dishonest.
A solid argument... How about the 100% valid and reliable evidence that supports your non-evidence.
The problem isn't the attempt to limit you imagination, it's that you tell others that what you imagine is "more" than it is - and that's a "lie".
I don't agree that a child should be allowed to choose between arguments, until they are taught what a "lie" is, and what the "truth" is, and the difference between the two.
My issues go much deeper than your petty argument of a God Bob, actually, somehow I was under the assumption that higher-education was where people were supposed to go, to learn "Truth", yet... I have yet to be taught the essence or subject of "Truth" or "truth", in "any" course I have taken in my entire life. What's wrong with that picture?
Bob, you propogate lies if you suggest your "God" is a fact, live with it.
Just because nature presents itself as an adaptive environment, doesn't allow you to conclude that the complex systems involved came to exist on their own.
Just because my car or my computer might have some "self-healing" abilities or at least some self diagnosing features, doesn't mean that I believe that the car came to exist on it's own.
Isn't it interesting how us "intelligent" beings, as complex as we are, self-healing, etc..., haven't yet designed something as beautiful as what the "evolutionary" process created?
Even worse, we're still trying to figure it out. Hundreds of years of study by doctors and it's still too complex for us to fully comprehend. That's quite a bit of complexity to have come to be, through random processes, no? Oh yes, it's not the random processes that "created" all that complexity, it's randomness combined with "natural selection".
If you think we're next to insane for believing in God, you should know that the feeling is mutual. From the Christian perspective, your beliefs are about as insane as they get, but we do understand where you get these beliefs. We'll just keep praying that Satan's shackles break free from more and more people.
The only true reality or sanity is God. If you are ever blessed to believe this...take the next step and just ask Him to guide your life towards holiness. This is what He desires for all of us...to be lovers of righteousness, just like Him!
Thanks for the chat,
Bob
Okay, thanks:
Dear Allah, Lords of Lords; King of Kings,
Please free me from Satan's shackles, and make it snappy....I mean, he refuses to disinfect his pitchfork between uses, and seriously needs to adjust his leotard, if ya know what I mean.
In Allah's name I pray, Amen.
Bob, all processes are natural, aren't they? If something is happening in the natural universe, wouldn't that something become natural to that universe?
Which is harder to accept, that natural processes cause weather, earthquakes, the deaths of stars, the birth of stars, the formation of planets, and the evolution of life, or that the dead, bastard son of a god is now an un-dead, zombie, man-god, whose father sits atop the firmament waiting to throw most of humanity into everlastingly horrific torment if they don't believe the correct version of the Jesus religion?
Anyway, could you please describe a non-natural process, and how that process would differ from a natural process?
"The only true reality or sanity is God."
As most of the regulars who visit this sight know, I have a good reason to disagree with your statement. I must insist that the bible god is anything but a sane and rational being. I mean, come on, have you even read the bible. That god is NUTS! In fact I would have to say that the thought of god being insane did hold sway in my mind before I deconverted and regained some sanity. Imagine believeing that the god you love and worship is insane and the reason you better grovel like a dog for his blessings is because he might snap and destroy you and everyone you love, and thats how we know he loves us. Live your life in fear of that kinda god for a while. It tends to twist your thinking more than a tad.
I hope that you're not telling others who are having problems holding onto reality to believe in the biblegod and he'll fix it. It doesn't work. If it did the mental institutions wouldn't need the doctors, just preachers. I made the same mistake and almost went to a funny farm myself. I don't consider myself perfectly sane, whatever that means, but I am still a functional human with emotional problems. I'll take that over slobbering in a streightjacket any day.
"Isn't it interesting how us "intelligent" beings, as complex as we are, self-healing, etc..., haven't yet designed something as beautiful as what the "evolutionary" process created?
Even worse, we're still trying to figure it out"
----
Bob,
I think you would agree that modern science is quite young, when compared to how long us humans have existed.......even if we were to use that fundie 6000 year ridiculous number as the total time we have existed.
Science (as we know it today) also got off to a slow start; relative to the speed we have advanced science knowledge in later times.
Today, we see the advances in science growing faster than they ever could before. We didn't always have such things as the; fast global sharing of knowledge, modern instruments to let us peek into the former invisible micro-world, and computers to process data a zillion times faster than humans could do before by pencil and hand.
Throughout most of human history, humans had no means to obtain the advanced knowledge we have today, a knowledge that again, continues to grow very rapidly.
Science in the early times was a slow tedious process.....not to mention hindered at times by the churches of those days who greatly feared it.
As most humans knew back then, science came directly from the Devil himself and even today, some fools still think this.
Given that the universe has been around for BILLIONS of years, that evolution has had MILLIONS of years to advance various life forms to what we see around us today, I don't think we humans are doing so badly when it comes to designing pretty darn impressive complex things, like this computer I'm typing on, or the car I'm driving or spaceships to other local planets etc..
While I'm not claiming we have developed (yet) something as complex as ourselves, I'm willing to bet it won't take us millions, or even thousands of years to create something as complex as ourselves.
Surely you can't really believe that in our SHORT time of having modern science tools and technology available to us, that we should have already created our own Adam and Eve from dirt....Assuming here of course, that someone besides your god can create life forms that is.
I am quite confident that we can be more efficient than evolution was, as far as the time it will take to achieve life forms as advanced as we see them today.
I really don't see it taking even thousands of years more time for us to reach that level of knowledge.
So while you imply here that we should have already reached what evolution already produced, it's not a fair contest to pit our short term modern science capability against millions of years that evolution had to create us.
The fact we haven't equaled evolution in the complexity of our designs (yet), by no means indicates that we never will, nor does the fact that we haven't just yet, mean that only your god has the power to create such life forms.
Heck, already we are quickly learning how to modify DNA to change the resulting life form from it's former self, so we surely are far more advanced about such things than our ancestors could even fathom being able to do.
While we haven't yet created something living and even semi-complex from non-living matter, I'm certain that day will come to. Again, how much time have we had to create a life form when compared to how long evolution had to do the same.
Besides having just the right mix of matter and conditions needed, it might also be a problem of time needed.
Just because we can't create life in a lab in a matter of months or a couple years, doesn't mean we aren't on the right track, or that our formulas are wrong. It MIGHT be that we don't have the luxury of waiting around long enough for it to form from chance as it did originally here.
No, I'm not in that field of science to know if I'm shooting from the hip about the time factor in creating life, but one thing is certain, evolution certainly had eons to get the life formula to function....all without some spoon of god stirring the primordial soup.
If you don't like that answer, then perhaps you would like the idea that evolution happened somewhere else and life came to this earth aboard a comet or alien spacecraft.
Either way, your god had nothing to do with it.
I have a few questions for you Bob, seeing as how you seem so knowledgeable in God's big plan of the universe.
Bob, I do wonder what Christians like you will think 'when' we find life forms elsewhere in the universe. I don't know if that will be soon or in our lifetime or a thousand years from now, but I'm pretty darn certain that other life is out there some-where, and that some of it would be intelligent....Intelligent enough, for your god to want to CONTROL them, that is.
So let us suppose my assumption is correct and that eventually we will discover other intelligent life forms, even if only by detecting them and not through some direct two way communications.
Will that shake your faith, as it would have our religious ancestors, when they believed that we were CENTRAL in God's plan, not only to our solar system, but the very universe itself?
If we do discover other life out there, will you simply adjust your beliefs (as Christians do all the time when a science fact can no longer be denied by them)?
Will a planet or moon with life found on it, force you to believe that god is running more than one living experiment in the universe?
Will it then make it possible, that god isn't just playing with earthlings alone and that we might find other intelligent beings amongst us in your heaven and hell when we die?
Would the rules god sets for us on earth, apply to other places in the universe as well?
(You never know when I might want to visit such a place and I'd like to know the rules beforehand)
Did other Adam and Eve's he created out there, not eat that darn apple in the garden?
If they did follow in our sin, then did Jesus have several repeat death performances on perhaps many planets, in order to save a universe of free-will sinners?
I can already see Jesus saying to his father, when told to sacrifice himself for yet another planet .......OH, NOT AGAIN POP's.... PLEASE NOT AGAIN !!!
Just some food for thought there Bob.
AtheistToothFairy
Let's review the word "All", it also goes by the names; Universe, Nature, Cosmos, etc. Everything linked or holding a relationship within "Nature", inherit the descriptor; natural. If change is a constant, then it is by process.
Therefore, everything undergoing change/transformation, is part of a natural process. Now, if you are suggesting that the step-by-step process, conditions, etc., must assume unknowns, then, okay. But, to me, the details within the framework/context of Nature, are of little concern to me.
Bob: "Just because nature presents itself as an adaptive environment, doesn't allow you to conclude that the complex systems involved came to exist on their own."
Existence, exists. Disprove the notion, using words that have meaning, and we'll talk further, until then, it's meaningless to talk about things that hold no meaning; and that includes the word "non-existence", which inherits meaning, by being related to "existence". Obviously, using words that have no external "identity", are confined to the mind as mental abstracts.
Bob: "Just because my car or my computer might have some "self-healing" abilities or at least some self diagnosing features, doesn't mean that I believe that the car came to exist on it's own."
Existence, doesn't depend on us Bob. And, both your computer AV, and car, are productes of natural processes, that both came into being by the transformation of natural resources.
Bob: "Isn't it interesting how us "intelligent" beings, as complex as we are, self-healing, etc..., haven't yet designed something as beautiful as what the "evolutionary" process created?"
I suppose if I were to live a few million years, I would be able to come up with something...
Bob: "Even worse, we're still trying to figure it out. Hundreds of years of study by doctors and it's still too complex for us to fully comprehend."
You can't prove history, that is based on probability. Most people couldn't tell you what they ate a year ago for dinner on this day, but they could make an educated assertion. Retrieving, a series of "instances" in time, with all known factors is complex, but many times, "all" factors don't need to be known in order to construct a general model with essential elements, in order to "know", something about an event.
Bob: "That's quite a bit of complexity to have come to be, through random processes, no? Oh yes, it's not the random processes that "created" all that complexity, it's randomness combined with "natural selection".
Randomness, is inseperable and totally dependent on ignorance to have meaning. If one weren't ignorant, there would be nothing randomly perceived. The less ignorant a person is, the less "random" the Universe and specific events appear.
We know more about "processes", than we do about the "products" and the causal effects produced by such products. Natural selection refers to a process.
Bob: "If you think we're next to insane for believing in God, you should know that the feeling is mutual. From the Christian perspective, your beliefs are about as insane as they get, but we do understand where you get these beliefs."
What does "God" mean? A word that can mean anything, has no meaning. If you would care to give the particulars, as to the context of such a word, it may perhaps be useful in a conversation.
Bob: "The only true reality or sanity is God. If you are ever blessed to believe this...take the next step and just ask Him to guide your life towards holiness. This is what He desires for all of us...to be lovers of righteousness, just like Him!"
A life dependent on a term than can mean anything (meaningless), is a life built on a "meaningless" foundation. Hope you find your way out of such a situation.
Bob: "Thanks for the chat,"
Likewise.