I lost my faith in Bible college

Sent in by Gregg T

As a child I was often under the influence of my Mothers religious beliefs. She was a born again Christian and taught my sister and I from an early age that if we didn't accept Jesus as our saviour we would end up in hell.

As a child I loved Jesus and by the time I was in my late teens Christianity had become my refuge. Talking to Jesus and going to church felt good. It gave me hope, courage and strength. Most of the time I felt happy and optimistic about the future.

Amongst the happy times though I also experienced deep loneliness and pain. Growing up gay in a small, rural city wasn't easy. I didn't "act gay" though so no one ever really knew...until I came completely out in the local news paper when I was 19.

Shortly after coming out I moved to the big city and life took a dramatic, downward turn. I abandoned my Christian beliefs, left all the friends and family I had ever known and ended up in a far worse place. I was chronically unhappy and often felt despair.

When I was about 22 I threw myself back into Christianity thinking that the cause of my unhappiness was that I was no longer a practicing Christian. I started going back to church, and going to small group meetings, I began seeing Christian councilors in hopes of changing my sexual orientation. I even went to Bible college.

Ironically it was in Bible college that I lost my faith. It challenged to think about what it was that I believed. Eventually I found that I could no longer believe that what the Bible said was actually true.

While I was in Bible college I talked with a couple of Mormons about their faith. One of them told me that he came to Mormonism because he got good feelings reading The Book of Mormon. That those good feelings were proof that God wanted him to be a Mormon.

This had a profound effect on my faith. Coming from an evangelical background I was always told that Mormons were wrong. That they were a cult and had “crazy” beliefs. This coming from people who believe that Noah got all those animals on the ark. How could a Mormon have had the same religious experience when Mormons never knew the true God? I wasn’t about to write it off as demonic influences as my Mom might suggest it was.

But the experience made me realise that I had always used the good feelings that Christianity gave me as proof that my beliefs were true. Discovering that people of other, “incorrect” faiths had similar experiences forced me to go beyond my feelings to find proof that the Bible was literally true. And to date I have nothing. No proof whatsoever that any of it is true. I know that I would need an experience outside of myself in order to believe.

I’m 28 and life has improved dramatically over the last 2 years for me. I no longer live in the unhappiness and despair that I did in my early 20s and I’m quite glad that that period of my life is over. I've had a partner for a year and half, and although it is not without struggle...our relationship is growing and improving, even though at times it can seem painfully slow.

Despite all of my objection part of me still wishes from time to time that I could believe. That I could experience those good feelings again. But I also want to know the truth and I don’t want to commit myself to an idea or belief if I don’t have a solid reason to believe it in the first place. So unless something miraculous happens, I don’t believe I will ever be returning to the faith again, at least not the faith that I was raised to believe in.

Thank you.

To monitor comments posted to this topic, use .

59 comments:

Just Rick said...

Great Testimonial Gregg, and I think you make a very important point :

The biggest proof that religion isn't divine is that there are so many religions, each claiming to be the right one and many of them condemning those in other religions. No matter how strong your faith or deep your devotion, there is someone in some other religion somewhere else with just as much, if not MORE faith and conviction than you have. The fact that all these different people cite basically the same feelings for the same experiences but for different gods or versions of god should be proof enough that there is nothing godly happening at all.

People believe because people WANT to believe. And so long as they want to believe they will never truly accept any proof presented to them that disproves their beliefs.

Some call that "faith". I call it stubbornness.

Lorena said...

Rick,

You are right. The warm feelings we got from imagining there was a loving God who cared for us was what kept us in the religion.

I, too, wish I could feel that way again. But, as with other areas in life, at some point the romanticism dies and reality sinks in.

Ourselves is all we have. We'd better be comfortable in our bodies and live life on our own terms.

I am glad to hear that you have come to accept yourself just the way you are. Way to go!

Anonymous said...

So an atheist shouldn't count it an argument for atheism if it makes him feel good, happier, and more free to reject Christianity?

Right?

Micah Cowan said...

Anonymous: right, it's not an argument for atheism. It does, however, make a rather excellent refutation against those who try to claim that atheists are not/can not be truly happy.

“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.”
  —George Bernard Shaw

Anonymous said...

My next door neighbor has a forty year old retarded daughter who seems very happy.She is very sweet and wears a constant smile.

I'll let that speak for itself.---freedy

Bill said...

Freedy,

Very crude yet wonderful analogy. I often have stated that I am incredibly jealous of the peace of mind obtained by the devoutly religious, but to go along with Freedy's example, I too am very jealous of the never ending joy of oblivious bliss that is so often presented in those with Down Syndrome.

xrayman

gigi said...

you are right about "religion" not having a divine origin because it is the work of men. Being a Christian is not about being religious it is about having a personal relationship with Christ. I rather live my life as if there is a God and find out when I die that there wasn't, than live as there is no God and find out there is One.

boomSLANG said...

Gigi: you are right about "religion" not having a divine origin because it is the work of men. Being a Christian is not about being religious it is about having a personal relationship with Christ.

Oh?..a "personal relationship", have ya? What..... you invite her over for tea?

Gigi: I rather live my life as if there is a God and find out when I die that there wasn't, than live as there is no God and find out there is One.

Ooooh, now it makes sense. So, you invite her over for tea.... because you're afraid she'll kick your a$$ if you don't. I see.

What are "personal relationships" for, right? lol

Audie said...

Goddamnit!! Do we have to put up with this again from another fundy-bot? Please, before you post any of your jesus-dribble on these threads, read more on this site, to include our ex-testimonies. Maybe then you will realize how pointless your statements are.

anonymous said...

gigi said... I rather live my life as if there is a God and find out when I die that there wasn't, than live as there is no God and find out there is One.

O MY GOSH!YOU, YOU!(speechless)That is now my favorite quote.That was DEEP!WOOOOOOW

boomSLANG said...

Oh good gRiEf!!! A theist?...who's never heard Pascal's Wager?(rolls eyes)

Yes, yes!....BELIEVE out of intimidation!...."just in case"!

What a horrible reason to believe something.

Jamie said...

I rather live my life as if there is a God and find out when I die that there wasn't, than live as there is no God and find out there is One.

How fucked up was my view of God even then when that statement made sense to me? Doesn't the very statement imply that God is pretty vicious and we'd all better appease him or else? Sheesh.

gigi said...

2 Timothy 3
Godlessness in the Last Days
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Astreja said...

Gigi, what makes you think we actually care about what the Bible has to say?

A quick and shallow reading of the history of *any* culture will reveal that the listed characteristics of "the last days" exist throughout that culture's history. Not just at some mythical point of no return. There is no golden age where everyone plays nice.

As long as there are sentient beings in the universe, there will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, yadda yadda. If your religion somehow helps you *not* be those things, that's nice. But it's hardly necessary. The power to do the right thing exists with you and you alone, not with any supernatural being.

freethinker05 said...

I agree gigi, a very good scripture reference explaining the definition of, (clergy, priests, pastors, evangelists,)etc., plus alot of hypocrites in churches these days. Thank No/god, i'm atheist. Roger

gigi said...

Astreja Thank you for not being rude and vulgar to get your point accross. I was just curious to see what ex-Christians could say and at what point they walked away from God and stopped believing. That's all. If you all want to believe that way that is perfectly fine. Thank God we have "free will"

freedy said...

Xrayman,"crude yet wonderful".

Bill--Thats the nicest thing anyone's ever SAID about my comments,thanks.

P.s. She suffers from a different form of mental retardation,(brain damage from C.P.or something). I
Was not trying to minimize the handicapped in anyway!

--Rick,did you hear about the three xtian fundies trying to blow up a mega-church in N.Texas?

**Just a matter of time,....xtians killing each other for conflicting dogma!----freedy





love and peace---freedy

.:webmaster:. said...

Just a matter of time?

Just a matter of history!

Victims of Christianity

Jim Arvo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jim Arvo said...

Gigi, why do you describe any of us here as having "walked away from God"? That phrase is a bit insulting because it covertly asserts the existence of your god and implies a willful denial on our part. Is it possible for you to drop the innuendo and simply ask "When/why did you stop believing in god"? (By the way, there is already a wealth of information on that topic at this site. Just start reading the testimonies.)

Just for illustration, here is how a similarly ill-worded question might be put to you: When did you decide to delude yourself into believing in a mythical god? You see, wouldn't it be much better to ask "When/why did you start believing in god?"

gigi said...

Dear Jim;
How do you think we came about? or the universe. Or do you think it just happened by chance. Take for instance; The human body, it is so complex, where if something is not working then something else works harder to compensate. The eye and its functions so far there is no camera that comes close to what an eye is able to do. Just because you choose to deny the existence of God it doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Lets say for intance that you choose not to believe gravity exist because you can't see it and you throw yourself out of a second floor window, what do you think is going to happen?

boomSLANG said...

Gigi: Thank you for not being rude and vulgar to get your point accross

Pardon me, Gigi, but you're a Christian, correct? You believe in "Yahweh/Jesus/ghost" as "God", correct? You believe the bible is "God's Word", do you not?

From your "Holy Bible":

"Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses." (Ezekiel 23: 19-21)

"and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions." (Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV)

and...

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 23:1-2)

...::snip::..eeeyoUcH!

and here's a doozy...

"If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." (Malachi 2:2-3)

Now, do you want to talk about "rude" and "vulgar"?

Of course, I'd lay heavy money on the guess that you didn't even know such things existed in your holy book, did you?

Gigi: I was just curious to see what ex-Christians could say and at what point they walked away from God and stopped believing.

I was just curious to see what ex-children could say, and at what point they walked away from Santa, and stopped believing.

Gigi: If you all want to believe that way that is perfectly fine. Thank God we have "free will"

When did you decide to delude yourself into believing in a mythical god? (ref; Jim Arvo)

Wes said...

"The eye and its functions so far there is no camera that comes close to what an eye is able to do..."

Wrong. Actually, the eye is so imperfect that had a similar optical device been made, mass produced for, say, something like a digital camera, the device would have been labeled 'defective' and destroyed...

"Just because you choose to deny the existence of God it doesn't mean He doesn't exist."

Sooo.. We should just assume this deity exists because there is NO evidence that he doesn't?? That doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. You, Gigi, should then believe that there is a magic wish-granting toaster on the planet Pluto. You have no evidence to prove it isn't there, so you should believe that, right?

"Lets say for intance that you choose not to believe gravity exist because you can't see it and you throw yourself out of a second floor window, what do you think is going to happen?"

This argument is flawed from the get-go. Gravity is demonstrably real because we can observe its effects on everything around us, including ourselves. Throw a ball, it comes down. There. Gravity. No faith required.

By the way - you can't 'believe' in gravity. You can only be confident of its effects. You, however, have to 'believe' in god, because you have no evidence that can substantiate its existence, so therefor you have nothing concrete about god to confide in. All you have is your 'faith': the ability to accept an idea as 'truth' without any consideration whatsoever to the facts surrounding the issue... -Wes.

gigi said...

Psalm 14:1
The fool has said in his heart "there is no God"

What else can I say, It was interesting to chat with you all,
thank you for your time.

Steven Bently said...

Psalm 14:1
The fool has said in his heart "there is no God"

14:1 1/2 "But the one who believes their heart speaks words, is the real genuine fool"

Sorry gigi, but the heart has no lips, no voice box, you lose!

stronger now said...

That's IT!?! That's the best gigi could do? Oh come on christians. Be a little creative. Try thinking up some original retort, or even, some freakin' evidence. Don't just throw out some oft' used insult by proxy. Stop hiding your true nature. If you want to call someone a fool then just do it. And do it right off so we don't have to waist time responding to your idiocy.

There. Had to get that off my chest.

Jim Arvo said...

Gigi, how old are you? You sound very young--if so, I wish to tailor my response accordingly.

You realize that you completely ignored my prior comment, right? In fact, it looks like you went out of your way to do it again. If you can indicate in some way that you're capable of having a civil two-way conversation, then I'll happily answer your questions. One way that you might do that is by responding intelligently to my prior comment about the presumptuous phrasing of your question.

Have a nice day.

J. C. Samuelson said...

Gigi,

Psalm 14:1
The fool has said in his heart "there is no God"


Ah, so your solution to what has been put to you so far is to call us fools? You've forgotten your Lord's warning:

"But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[b] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matt. 5:22)

Then again, you probably don't have anything to worry about.

twincats said...

Gigi said: "The human body, it is so complex, where if something is not working then something else works harder to compensate. The eye and its functions so far there is no camera that comes close to what an eye is able to do."

Ah, yes - the old (and I do mean OLD) argument from complexity. I wish some of these people would crack a (real) biology book or go to TalkOrigins before spouting that crap! It gets really old.

clair said...

To gigi, and whoever, I am the wife of "stonger now". I am not at all like him, something I am reminded of daily. Anyway, I loved church my whole adult life and it came to an end in the past couple of years. I know the KJV backward and forward, thee's and thou's, and he begat this one and he begat that one. It means that the much un-requited love of God-of-the-Bible did nothing, and is still doing nothing. The five plus hours that I used to spend praying to dead air was unanswered, and I actually was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis, a fun disease to have. I wish you every joy, with your tooth grinding, and sideways glancing at us that are hell bound. Each day, I take a few minutes to ask the Lord Jesus to reveal himself in any way, and then the Father, when his son responds not. Then finally, "Satan, Lucifer, Devil, are you there, show yourself you disgusting piece of crap I've heard so much about?"
No response from any of those bastardly, ill-equipped for reality, bits of someone's sorry imaginings.
May you, who know everything, be sent to the far reaching edge of shopping mall, to hold someone's money and never be allowed to spend any. -C-

stronger now said...

waist, waste. Forgive me.

Please.

Wes said...

"The fool has said in his heart "there is no God"...,

"...a wise main says it out loud!"

I still like that one. I don't know where I first heard it, but it's my favorite response to that silly bibleverse... -Wes.

Wes said...

BTW: Gigi - we are all still here wanting to have an intelligent, rational conversation with you. Are you not willing to participate any longer? Why'd you run away? -Wes.

Authentic Bolivian said...

I think that what you guys have to say is very interesting because I often have doubts about God. Instead of hiding them and pretending they aren't there like many do, I think its best to look them in the face. Before being rash and giving up on a belief I found it better to research a lil. if it isn't true than theres no pt of wasting our time. right? lets start from the beginning...Is there a God? Is he the Jesus of the Bible? Is the Bible true? If the Bible is false than u all r right...there is no pt of believing. Without taking faith into consideration yet...historically is the Bible true? the answer is yes. just try and prove it wrong and u'll find u can't. i know some stuff can't be proved but from all the historical info that we have today it all lines up. if the Bible is true than there is a God and so far it historically hasn't been proven wrong. As far as a personal relationship with God that is where faith comes in because we can't see him, rarely have ppl heard him talk aloud and because sometimes we can't feel him. i think that gigi was wrong in saying that the only pt is so u don't go to hell...u shouldn't have a relationship with someone just cuz they treaten u or cuz u want something from them. that isn't the real pt of a friendship.Its the same with God. i have a personal relationship with God because he is the only one that helps me hang on when life gets so hard. he is there in the good and bad times...he is a friend. its nice knowing that someone is literally always there for u. again this is where faith comes in...and thats the hard part cuz thats where my doubts come from. i have found that u can talk to him and he will answer... he probably won't strike u with lightening but thru others he'll speak, maybe thru nature, maybe thru the Bible. he always finds some way. I know that u guys probably won't agree but i would like to ask u to plz be open-minded...i will try to be too. this is my view. before putting God off think about it...research, look for answers to all u don´t believe, other than that u just that u don't believe it. it goes the same way for me... i shouldn't just believe something because I do. that isn't a good enough reason. I don't want to come across as trying to prove u wrong. i just want to explain that there are thousands of doubts i've had and still have but try working them out. If you guys have an advice or want to tell me exactly what u believe plz do. i want to understand the truth!!! i want to understand what u believe so that i am more open-minded and consider things i haven't before. Thanks for ur time.

boomSLANG said...

Bolivian Christian: Before being rash and giving up on a belief I found it better to research a lil.

That's great advice. Okay, before you gave up on Santa, did you research it? Or did you just use your brain?..i.e..common sense, logical thinking, reason, etc? I'm curious.

Bolivian Christian: Without taking faith into consideration yet...historically is the Bible true? the answer is yes.

Historical "truths", don't make legends throughout history, "truth".

Bolivian Christian: i know some stuff can't be[proven] but from all the historical info that we have today it all[the Bible] lines up.

No...no it doesn't "line up". Do snakes, donkeys, and shrubberies speak the human language? No..'doesn't "line up". Does a firmament hold up the sky? No..'doesn't "line up". Will the blood of a dove heal leprosy? No..'doesn't "line up". Can a human being camp out in the belly of a whale? No..'doesn't "line up".

See? Those things are legendary, superstitious, MYTH.

Bolivian Christian: As far as a personal relationship with God that is where faith comes in because we can't see him, rarely have ppl heard him talk aloud and because sometimes we can't feel him.

You cannot "SEE" Poseiden, either. So? Does that mean you can have a "personal relationship" with him? And it's "rare" that people hear non-existant beings "talk aloud", because schizophrenia is a "rare" disease.

Bolivian Christian: i have a personal relationship with God because he is the only one that helps me hang on when life gets so hard. he is there in the good and bad times...he is a friend. its nice knowing that someone is literally always there for u. again this is where faith comes in

If a someone, or something, is "literally" there for you, then you don't need "faith". Do you see the contradiction? Think hard.

(very young)Bolivian Christian: he probably won't strike u with lightening but thru others he'll speak, maybe thru nature, maybe thru the Bible.

Um, "lightening" is nature. I live in the lightening capital of the world, so I guess, here, "God" is really "talkative", huh? Nice.

Bolivian Christian: If you guys have an advice or want to tell me exactly what u believe plz do. i want to understand the truth!!! i want to understand what u believe so that i am more open-minded and consider things i haven't before. Thanks for ur time.

My advice is to analyze why it is you don't believe in Zeus, Thor, Quetzacoatl, Allah, and Neptune. When/if you can figure out why it is you don't believe in those "gods", you'll fully understand why we don't believe in "Yahweh".

Bye now.

Authentic Bolivian said...

boomSLANG,

The thing about Santa...i didn't literally research if he existed...i just stayed up all night and saw that it was my parents putting gifts under the tree...i didn't need to research it, i already saw the evidence. with a topic like Does God exist? I am researching it cuz it is a lot more important and complex than does Santa exist? As far as just using common sense, well honestly i make mistakes and i don't always see things from all angles. so i rather not only rely on what i know but on real solid facts.

"Historical "truths", don't make legends throughout history, "truth"."- i think u miss interpreted what i was saying. i meant if historical facts back the Bible then its got to have truth in it. i meant that so far from evidence found be scientists and archeologist the cities in the Bible existed, the sun really did stop for a day, ppls names are accurate and so are their positions. this isn't true for many other religions.

According to u some things don't line up- i wasn't really looking at if for that perspective but i guess ur right some things just don't make sense and won't. Even if this isn't a God i am 100% sure that there is something more than us... there is a spirtual relm...im seen things that can't be logically explained. so there must be something more than just us on this earth.

What i was saying about having a personal relationship with God isn't that i believe everything cuz i can't see it. i was saying it takes faith to do that...i don't know if u have ever tried talking to God...if not i can't really explain it to u...this is a different kind of relationship.

you said: "If a someone, or something, is "literally" there for you, then you don't need "faith". Do you see the contradiction? Think hard."

Ur wrong- i need faith cuz even though God is literally there with me i can't literally see him because of that i begin to doubt. its not a contradiction.

And the whole thing about lightning-it was meant to be a metahphor not taken literally. sorry if u didn't get that...my bad.

As far as ur advice, thanks. Honestly those are the questions that need to be asked. right now to be 100% honest i dunno and i am thinking about this a lot. questions like these are important because it will lead to the truth- either it will strengthen my faith or break it resulting with me finding out the real truth.
If u have any more advice id like to hear it. i'll get back to u when i've figured some of ur questions out.

boomSLANG said...

Bolivian Christian: The thing about Santa...i didn't literally research if he existed...i just stayed up all night and saw that it was my parents putting gifts under the tree...i didn't need to research it, i already saw the evidence.

You very well may have stayed up all night and saw your parents, etc, however, that "evidence" does nothing to discount Santa's existence, conclusively. You could've been a bad boy, and Santa may have skipped your house that year, and every year since. The point is, at some point in your life, you would've dismissed Santa's existence based on his nature-defying attributes..i.e..flying reindeer, presents for the world's children stuffed into a flying sleigh, etc...this, regardless of if you caught your parents putting toys under the tree, or not.

Bolivian Christian: As far as just using common sense, well honestly i make mistakes and i don't always see things from all angles. so i rather not only rely on what i know but on real solid facts.

Okay, where are these "real solid facts"?? Not the bible, because you've gone on record to say that there's misinformation in the bible, and anyway, even if we count the "historical" information that IS accurate, it doesn't make the "magical" absurdities "true", by default. In other words, the supernatural acounts in the bible are MYTH, until you, or somebody else, can provide convincing evidence to the contrary.

Bolivian Christian: "Historical "truths", don't make legends throughout history, "truth"."- i think u miss interpreted what i was saying. i meant if historical facts back the Bible then its got to have truth in it.

And I'll say it again; no amount of "history" will make "supernaturalism" a reality.

Bolivian Christian: Even if this isn't a God i am 100% sure that there is something more than us... there is a spirtual relm...im seen things that can't be logically explained. so there must be something more than just us on this earth.

Really? WHY "must" there be? What things have you "seen" that bring you to this conclusion? Tell me what a "spirit" is too, BTW.

Bolivian Christian: What i was saying about having a personal relationship with God isn't that i believe everything cuz i can't see it. i was saying it takes faith to do that...i don't know if u have ever tried talking to God...if not i can't really explain it to u...this is a different kind of relationship.

Yes, a "different kind of relationship". The kind where you have to pretend that someone's there, and listening. Good luck with that.

Bolivian Christian: [You're] wrong- i need faith cuz even though God is literally there with me i can't literally see him because of that i begin to doubt. its not a contradiction.

Yes...yes it is a contradiction. If you "can't literally see him", how can you make the claim that "God" is "literally" there? If you can't make it make sense, then maybe this is the first step to becoming a freethinker.

Good luck.

gigi said...

boomslang; I guess you still don't know what faith is, as the Bible says in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen..verse 3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." Any way, you probably will not understand this and will reply by trying to point out how stupid it is to believe this way. In regards to the Bible historical facts,check this website http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/two.html

boomSLANG said...

Gigi's back with: boomslang; I guess you still don't know what faith is, as the Bible says in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen..

Yes, Gigi, I know what "faith" is....it's an excuse to believe something that you know ain't true. In any event, even if we use your biblical definition---if we don't see evidence for a particular "thing", certainly, one cannot claim that said "thing" is "literally" there, as the poster suggested. Look, if you "know" a particular thing exists?.... then you certainly don't need to have "faith" that it exists.

Furthermore, one can "hope for" anything they'd like---I can "hope for" it to rain gold in my backyard---it doesn't mean it'll happen. Gigi, you cannot alter reality with mere "hope".

Gigi continues: Any way, you probably will not understand this and will reply by trying to point out how stupid it is to believe this way.

No, I understand it, because I once believed that way. However, I finally got so tired of the cognitive dissonance that believing by "faith" creates, that I decided to seek truth objectively; to seek and accept the results, even if it made me uncomfortable at times.

Gigi recommends: In regards to the Bible historical facts, check this website [insert arbitrary apologetic website]

I'm sorry Gigi, any article that two paragraphs in says that the bible is internally consistant, is suspect. "T'was the Night Before Christmas" is "internally consistant". But is it "consistant" with external reality? No...and neither is the "Holy Bible". Hogwash.

Anonymous said...

You know the best things about a relationship with an invisible best friend are? He doesn’t leave the toilet seat up or use the last to the toilet paper and not replace the role. He doesn’t leave hair on the soap or the drain rat in the drain. He doesn’t drink your last Pepsi or leave dirty dishes in the sink or hog the T.V. remote. He doesn’t steal the covers or ask for sex.

Shannon

Astreja said...

boomSLANG: "Furthermore, one can "hope for" anything they'd like---I can "hope for" it to rain gold in my backyard---it doesn't mean it'll happen. Gigi, you cannot alter reality with mere "hope".

Hear, hear! (applauds) I'm put in mind of the famous "Hope is the denial of reality" quotion from Raistlin Majere.

gigi said...

Astreja said...
Hear, hear! (applauds) I'm put in mind of the famous "Hope is the denial of reality" quotion from Raistlin Majere.

"Raistlin Majere (326 - 356 AC) is a fictional character from the Dragonlance series of books. He was the most powerful magic-user on Krynn. Raistlin was the twin brother of Caramon Majere, another Hero of the Lance."

This explains a lot! wow I am impressed.
anyways, Boomslang, since you definetely don't believe in creation is it correct to assume ( and I know that you can not ASS.U.ME)you probably believe the "Theory of evolution" right? Why is it easy for people to accept this "theory" when there are so many things it can not explain? or the "Big Bang theory" common! can you really believe that. Men kind have been trying to deny God at all costs and come up with anything to prove that God doesn't exist. I am open minded and read all kinds of materials even come to websites like this one to see if there is anything that can make me change my mind about God but so far...nothing.
You all remind me of a bunch of spoiled little brats. That are throwing a temper tamtrum because they are not getting what they want. Boo Hoo I did this and I did that and there I found there is no God. so there, I said it!!!

Astreja said...

Hi, Gigi. I see you were at least motivated to look up the quotation. Consider now that the Bible is also a work of fiction. Consider also that, two thousand years from today, perfectly sincere religious people may well be discussing Raistlin (or Frodo Baggins, or Harry Potter, or Granny Weatherwax) with the same intensity as Christians discussing Jesus.

Regardless of who actually said it, a flesh-and-blood wizard or a fantasy author posing as a wizard, the quotation itself is valid. I agree with it wholeheartedly. Hope is the denial of reality.

Yes, I think the Theory of Evolution is an excellent first step in explaining speciation on this planet. I think that the Big Bang theory is interesting, but am personally leaning towards an eternal universe that expands and contracts. IMO, both theories are vast improvements over the Biblical explanations. They may not be 100% correct, but they're definitely more sensible than the "Six days and a talking snake too!" hypothesis.

You all remind me of a bunch of spoiled little brats. That are throwing a temper tamtrum because they are not getting what they want.

Interesting statement. What do you think *I* actually want?

Wes said...

"You all remind me of a bunch of spoiled little brats. That are throwing a temper tamtrum because they are not getting what they want. Boo Hoo I did this and I did that and there I found there is no God. so there, I said it!!!"

Ha ha. It's funny. We don't agree with Gigi's take on our origins, but because she can't present any kind of logical evidence to support her fantastic bible-based claims, she feels instead justified to simply hurl insults like those in her post above. Yikes. Here I thought perhaps Gigi was a little different from the usual christian crud that floats by here.... ah, well. Gigi, you do know that thousands of people read these posts, right? -Wes.

Wes said...

Yeah... Humans have slowly adapted to our changing environment throughout many hundreds of thousands of years to finally become what we are today; or...

...god made man out of dirt in six days, like some old book with dubious origins says.

Hahaha. The thought of the second choice even being remotely valid made me giggle! -Wes.

gigi said...

Wes said:

...god made man out of dirt in six days, like some old book with dubious origins says.

Do you know what our bodies' chemical composition is? Look it up!

gigi said...

Wes said,
Yeah... Humans have slowly adapted to our changing environment throughout many hundreds of thousands of years to finally become what we are today; or...

I think the "missing Link" is still missing...or not?

Wes said...

"Do you know what our bodies' chemical composition is? Look it up!"

Are you serious? You missed the argument?? Really?? Of COURSE, Gigi - humans are made of the stuff that is all around us. We are entirely made up of all those elements that you can natually find on this planet, and all throughout the universe.. And yes, those same elements make up 'dirt'. So what was your point? You obviously missed mine...

MY point, was YOU think these elements were *commanded* by some 'god' to assemble into fully formed humans **because you have a book that says so**, whereas most of US have evidence suggesting that those very same elements came together to form simple life forms many thousands of years ago, which have over time grown more complicated.

We're not talking about WHAT life is comprised of - we're talking about HOW THE STUFF CAME TOGETHER TO FORM LIFE. Your little quirp that "we're made of dirt" ultimately contributed nothing to this debate..

So tell me, Gigi: Why do YOU believe a 'god' put all the atoms and molecules together to form fully-formed humans? And what do you base these beliefs on??

Yeesh! I can't believe you missed that! -Wes.

Wes said...

"I think the "missing Link" is still missing...or not?"

That's because you don't understand evolutionary biology. And I don't have the time to teach you. If I could, Gigi, I would pay for you to take a course on it, because, really, you don't sound like someone who has really taken the time to seriously understand it, at least not past an introductory level anyway. No offence intended... -Wes.

Jim Arvo said...

Gigi said "You all remind me of a bunch of spoiled little brats. That are throwing a temper tamtrum because they are not getting what they want. Boo Hoo I did this and I did that and there I found there is no God...."

Gigi, you never answered my question about your age (unless I missed it). I'm going to assume that you're a teen and address you accordingly.

I'm glad that you see being "open minded" as a positive attribute, and that it's something you aspire to. But there is more to having an open mind than claiming to possess one. Please look at how you disparage us for holding views that are different from your own, as in your quote above. Several vital aspects of being open minded are 1) realizing the limits of your own knowledge, and 2) accepting that people can legitimately reach conclusions that are different from your own. We do not agree with you on some basic matters of theology, Gigi. That does not entitle you to characterize us as you have above. There is no need for that kind of thing, particularly if you wish to be expand your thinking.

Now, you've asked a lot of questions, some concerning science. I often dive into discussions of this nature because I love to discuss science and logic. However, in your case Gigi, I think it prudent to first determine whether you are in fact interested in discussing anything. Do you actually care about how science operates, and what it has shown, or are you simply determined to dismiss certain findings because they conflict with your presuppositions? (Can you see that the latter is not compatible with having an open mind?) Do you actually care about the opinions we hold, or are you primarily concerned with denigrating us for not believing precisely what you do? (Again, the latter is not compatible with having an open mind.) Finally, are you willing and able to examine your own presuppositions, particularly about theology? (Need I repeat?)

Those are not rhetorical questions, Gigi. I'd appreciate answers before I attempt to engage you in any substantive discussion.

stronger now said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
stronger now said...

stronger now said...
Gigi said "You all remind me of a bunch of spoiled little brats. That are throwing a temper tamtrum because they are not getting what they want. Boo Hoo I did this and I did that and there I found there is no God...."

There you go! Now that's a little better. Looks like someone is starting to grow a pair.

Now try to dispense with all the bible god nonsense and get to doin' what you really came here for. To sling insults at us. Beware I can sling some as well.

boomSLANG said...

Gigi, I second the request to disclose your age, this, so I can respond accordingly. I'm guessing 11 - 16? Do tell....and BE honest, "God" is watching.

eel_shepherd said...

Gigi wrote (and where's Maurice Chevalier when y'really need him?):
"...Men kind have been trying to deny God at all costs and come up with anything to prove that God doesn't exist..."

Au contraire, ma petite; men (& women) invented the god(s).

As for the "missing link", Dawkins correctly pointed out that a person who's bound and determined not to accept the existence of transitional forms will, when presented with a fossil that perfectly bisects the chronological gap between two other fossils, claim that there are now twice as many gaps.

Gigi, I also suspect that you are either a teenager or newly out of your teens. It's true that you don't take us seriously, and that most of us don't take you seriously either. But that doesn't make it a tie, if that's what you're thinking. There's a qualitative difference: You discount us because of who we _are_ (non-members of your particular "camp"), and we discount you because of what you _say_. You advance no evidentiary (or even thematically sequential) substance in support of your beliefs. To quote a regular poster at this site: You believe because you believe because you believe... Well, fine, believe whatever you want to believe, it's a free country. But, speaking from my own experience, I've never been persuaded to believe a new thing today that I didn't believe yesterday until someone came up with a string of linked subjects and predicates that pointed to a line of reason that contained fewer moving parts than what I'd previously been believing.

Geez, I don't think I've ever used the word "believe" that much all at once in my whole life. I'm exhausted, gotta go and get some nice lemonade from the fridge.

gigi said...

Gentlemen, my apologies, I never thought that calling some one a "spoiled brat" was an insult. You must forgive me since English is not my first language. In regards to my age, let me just say that I was a teen many moons ago and let's leave it at that. I think that these last comments posted are really interesting although in some parts I am lost,
like..
eel_shepherd said...
"and predicates that pointed to a line of reason that contained fewer moving parts than what I'd previously been believing."
???
Let me tell you all something, I like you and I wish you all the best and even though you don't believe in God, I have been praying for you.

Jim Arvo said...

Gigi said "Gentlemen, my apologies, I never thought that calling some one a 'spoiled brat' was an insult."

You should have stopped at "my apologies"; as is, your apology rings hollow. You were quite deliberately derisive--I don't see how you can deny that. But, given the tone of your latest post, it seems we've at least made some progress, no?

Starting somewhat afresh, let me ask you this. Do you appreciate the fact that the former Christians who populate this site have spent a good chunk of their lives studying Christianity and many of them absolutely devoted to it and given over to it? Do you understand that nobody here has cast it of lightly? Do you also understand that nobody (and I mean *NOBODY*) here claims to know everything?

I hope you can agree to those simple observations. If so, then that's a much better place to begin a dialog. Now, if you are curious as to how we reached the conclusion that Christianity is a false religion (like myriad others), there are numerous regulars here who will be happy to discuss it with you and/or to point you to a vast amount of information that is already posted here and elsewhere on the internet. How would you like to proceed?

J. C. Samuelson said...

Gigi,

It seems obvious you haven't spent much time studying the science that so offends you. Whether this is due to age or inclination, I won't venture to guess. However, like Jim I love to discuss science and logic, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and try to address at least one or two of your comments in the hopes that you'll consider the answers seriously.

Why is it easy for people to accept this "theory" [evolution] when there are so many things it can not explain?

To begin with, it apparently isn't 'easy' for the public to accept the Theory of Evolution. In a 2006 paper, Jon D. Miller, Eugenie Scott, and Shinji Okamoto reviewed tweny years of polling in the U.S. and found that "After 20 years of public debate, the percentage of U.S. adults accepting the idea of evolution has declined from 45% to 40% and the percentage of adults overtly rejecting evolution declined from 48% to 39%. The percentage of adults who were not sure about evolution increased from 7% in 1985 to 21% in 2005" (see here and here (the latter requires a subscription)). This year, Gallup conducted a poll which found that 49% of the American public accept the Theory of Evolution and 48% do not (see here).

In stark contrast to the above numbers, over 95% of all scientists & engineers in the U.S. accept the theory, with an even higher percentage (99.85%) among those working in fields related to life science (according to 1997 data).

What does this mean? It means that those with the most knowledge of the theory (and, more generally, the principles of science) are most likely to accept it. The disparity between scientists and the general public is best explained as indicating shortcomings in science education. This is beginning to change, thanks in no small part due to the assertiveness of the ID movement, which has prompted a great deal of discussion of the topic. But in any event, the validity of evolutionary theory is not established based on popularity. Would you agree that truth is not determined by popular vote?

As for the other part of your question, I'm not sure I understand. What, exactly, are the "many things" you would like it to explain? If you mean the origins of life (abiogenesis), that is a separate but related field of study that is still in its infancy. The theory of evolution logically suggests the idea of natural abiogenesis, but has little else to say about it. Keep in mind also that evolution is not an "all-encompassing" field of study. It is restricted to the life sciences, and is only tangently relevant to other fields such as geology, paleoanthropology, physics, astronomy, and so forth. I say this because creationists sometimes try to paint evolution as an overall assertion about the nature of the universe. It is not.

There are, of course, legitimate critiques within scientific circles regarding a variety of rather specific aspects of the Theory of Evolution. None of them, however, includes criticism of its fundamental principles, which are so overwhelmingly well-established that many equate the theory with fact.

...the "Big Bang theory" common! can you really believe that.

One might think that a creationist would willingly accept the "Big Bang," since it suggests a beginning not unlike the one they imagine took place. I well know that creationists refuse to accept when it is supposed to have taken place, but I'm surprised at how some argue over whether it happened at all.

Men kind have been trying to deny God at all costs and come up with anything to prove that God doesn't exist.

Some people probably do. However, science does not have that objective. To quote from another thread, "Science does not have as its purpose the disproof of religion. What it does is gather data and interpret it so as to find the best possible explanation available for whatever phenomena are being studied. That this evidence in a majority of cases happens to conflict with certain doctrines of faith regarding the same or similar phenomena is incidental." To expand on this, it is notable that a majority of discoveries and their related theories leading up to (and including) Darwin's Theory of Evolution was the result of creationists studying what they believed was God's special creation. Let me repeat that another way - Darwin travelled to and departed from the Galapagos islands a Christian; a creationist! It wasn't until he had examined his findings that he shifted to agnosticism. It was his integrity, and that of hundreds of scientists (Christian and non-Christian) who followed in his footsteps, that gradually led to the scientific acceptance of naturalistic theories for the explanation of life as we know it, not some evil atheist conspiracy to reject God.

I am open minded and read all kinds of materials even come to websites like this one to see if there is anything that can make me change my mind about God but so far...nothing.

While it's great that you're willing to read opposing viewpoints, I've noticed that in several of your posts here, you've not seemingly attempted to understand any of it. Your time would be better spent finding and reading resources that you can learn the most about the areas that concern you. More below.

You all remind me of a bunch of spoiled little brats. That are throwing a temper tamtrum because they are not getting what they want.

Apparently, you are not as open minded as you claim. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but if you think of the people here as "spoiled little brats" you're not likely to try and learn anything from us, are you? But to be perfectly blunt, it seems to me that it's you who is throwing the tantrum. Take that or leave it as it suits you.

I think the "missing Link" is still missing...or not?

Once again, you've been misled. There is no "missing link," as such. The missing links (notice the "s" to indicate the plural) are mostly hidden in DNA, not found in some animal that is half-chimp, half-human, if that's what you imagine. Nor are they properly called "missing." They're there, and scientists can examine them along with DNA from other creatures to determine their similarities, if any. This is how we know that chimps are but one chromosome away from being human (though that's a bit of an oversimplification, I admit).

Naturally, there are some transitional hominid forms that are linked to both humans and apes (ever hear of Lucy?), and other extinct forms of the genus homo are well-known (cf. Neanderthal, etc.). The common ancestor from which apes and humans diverged is as yet unknown, however. If you're referring to transitional fossils in general (for many species), there are actually quite a few.

I don't have the time, inclination, or expertise to explain what you need to know about science here. Your best bet is to start here. You can also look here. The latter is a Christian site and has many links under the "Learn More" banner on the left. You'll find a great deal of materials at both sites that will help you to educate yourself. There are also boatloads of other sites to visit and books to read, of course. If you're really interested, drop me a line and I'll pass you some recommendations.

I never thought that calling some one a "spoiled brat" was an insult.

I second Jim's assessment that it appears you were indeed deliberate in your insults. I'm curious to know in which part of the world calling someone you don't know a "spoiled brat" who's "throwing a temper tantrum" is not considered equivalent to calling them childish or immature.

You must forgive me since English is not my first language.

Then do please take your time, and read the posts carefully. When writing your own, take your time and consider how the reader will receive it. It might help us avoid misunderstandings.

freethinker05 said...

To "all" the above agnostics/atheists/and freethinkers, great advice to "any" christians visiting this site. Peace, Roger

Anonymous said...

Here is myth you might enjoy ... Charles Darwin gave up all hope in Christianity when his daughter died. Here is another myth ... Satanic influences were behind his religion of evolution. Enjoy the bed time fairy tales as you read them to your children!

Archived Testimonial Pageviews this week: