Explaining the unexplainable
Sent in by Michael F
I myself am an ex-Christian of the pentecostal/evangelical type. I joined the church after I had an experience reading and understanding parts of the Bible. I felt as though God himself was speaking to me and giving me wisdom. Coming from a rather "spiritual" lifestyle, the scriptures appeared to have the real spiritual meat I was searching for.
I later came to understand salvation through Christ,and had given myself to Him, no looking back. I left my finance, got rid of old literature, cut off ties with people, and gave myself as a servant of Christ.
Problems arose while studying the Bible. My main stumbling block was the whole idea of an imminent second coming of Christ. How could the Bible be the perfect word of God, when Jesus, Paul, and John kept spouting of of the nearness of the second coming. It was not something to be overlooked, since it is a central prophecy in the New Testament. Either God's word means what it says, or it doesn't.
By this point I became afraid, because Christ was my life and the Bible was my guide map. I was a youth leader, on the worship team, and an evangelist to New York City. I became angry at God because His Word was very confusing. I felt stupid telling people that the Bible was the TRUTH, when already it was showing itself to be unreliable.
Another incident occurred with a friend of mine.
He has a degenerate nerve disease that is literally killing him. Christ is his life. Two times, someone from his church, a "prophet" as they call themselves, claimed that God had healed my friend of his disease. One day, my friend approached me, and told me that God had healed him. He truly believed it, despite the reality of the situation. All of the symptoms of his disease were still there: twitching and slurred speech. I quickly became dizzy and sick. I felt that just as he believed he was healed and really was not, so I myself was believing in something that I already had come to doubt: my biblical faith. After a few weeks, my friend eventually came to terms with the fact that he was not healed.
I became more frustrated than anything, because I needed to leave this "truth," but was afraid. I feared God's wrath. Then, I finally made up my mind and said "God, if you're there, and you are as you say you are, save me from a bad mistake, otherwise I need to be moving on. If you are a God of truth, then you will know why I am leaving."
I left 4 months ago, and am very glad. It is a difficult process, emotionally, but when you know why it is you are doing something, and have chosen to follow through, the whole challenge becomes a lesson.
I still believe in a God, and draw strength from the hope that there is a purpose in all of this suffering. But as for fundamental faith, I must mark it off as another one of those things that we human beings have created in order to explain the unexplainable.
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I myself am an ex-Christian of the pentecostal/evangelical type. I joined the church after I had an experience reading and understanding parts of the Bible. I felt as though God himself was speaking to me and giving me wisdom. Coming from a rather "spiritual" lifestyle, the scriptures appeared to have the real spiritual meat I was searching for.
I later came to understand salvation through Christ,and had given myself to Him, no looking back. I left my finance, got rid of old literature, cut off ties with people, and gave myself as a servant of Christ.
Problems arose while studying the Bible. My main stumbling block was the whole idea of an imminent second coming of Christ. How could the Bible be the perfect word of God, when Jesus, Paul, and John kept spouting of of the nearness of the second coming. It was not something to be overlooked, since it is a central prophecy in the New Testament. Either God's word means what it says, or it doesn't.
By this point I became afraid, because Christ was my life and the Bible was my guide map. I was a youth leader, on the worship team, and an evangelist to New York City. I became angry at God because His Word was very confusing. I felt stupid telling people that the Bible was the TRUTH, when already it was showing itself to be unreliable.
Another incident occurred with a friend of mine.
He has a degenerate nerve disease that is literally killing him. Christ is his life. Two times, someone from his church, a "prophet" as they call themselves, claimed that God had healed my friend of his disease. One day, my friend approached me, and told me that God had healed him. He truly believed it, despite the reality of the situation. All of the symptoms of his disease were still there: twitching and slurred speech. I quickly became dizzy and sick. I felt that just as he believed he was healed and really was not, so I myself was believing in something that I already had come to doubt: my biblical faith. After a few weeks, my friend eventually came to terms with the fact that he was not healed.
I became more frustrated than anything, because I needed to leave this "truth," but was afraid. I feared God's wrath. Then, I finally made up my mind and said "God, if you're there, and you are as you say you are, save me from a bad mistake, otherwise I need to be moving on. If you are a God of truth, then you will know why I am leaving."
I left 4 months ago, and am very glad. It is a difficult process, emotionally, but when you know why it is you are doing something, and have chosen to follow through, the whole challenge becomes a lesson.
I still believe in a God, and draw strength from the hope that there is a purpose in all of this suffering. But as for fundamental faith, I must mark it off as another one of those things that we human beings have created in order to explain the unexplainable.
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Comments
pentecostals never allowed me to study as a kid screaming and shouting right across my house in secular india.....i had to shut all the windows and study for 10 years...i went to catholic schools for 13 years...the last two years it became routine for them to make fun of my religion which is not christian....one christian woman asked me whether i would squat in the toilet everyday like a Hindu deity all this in Hindu majority India.
somehow included jesus in my belief system along with other religions...in India, you have everything, you study comparative religions and try to see the oneness and all that..Add to that the long association with catholic schools (my lower level schools did not impose religion that much). It was another story that the priests there were routine drunkards most of them. whatever...my mom went to catholic schools....
then i happened to live and work in the US and encountered nutty protestant evangelicals....anyhow, then in 94, and again some nuts thought as weird as it may seem that i am some chosen character or devil one of the two whatever man...evangies are nuts anyway. Two times i had to run away from america to preserve my sanity from these crazies.
stopped accommodating jesus in my belief system for more three or four weeks now and i already feel excellent....
now i feel like a JEWISH person who does not believe in jesus as a prophet at all even though i am not a Jewish person myself. there are millions of Jewish people in the US so I should be fine in the US and not be bothered.
why could jesus not prove at least a couple of miracles in a court of law? turn water into wine or wine to water....some shit..Cheating in the name of God that is quackery unacceptable so LORD CAIAPHAS WAS VERY JUST ..that was not mere cheating but in the name of GOD fooling people..giving them false hopes..they found his shroud..so his resurrection never happened..how can someone resurrect with a shroud?..it is fairly ridiculous..you need to have an iq of how much to believe this?....his virgin birth was adopted from pre christian religions; his birth is a lie; his death is a lie; then in between his birth and death you got his life that must have been a big lie too....ST. JUDAS ISCARIOT must have been sick of his lies...30 or more years of lies not 30 pieces of silver....ST. JUDAS ISCARIOT must have written the good statements you see in the new testament such as 'blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth; blessed are the merciful and blessed are the peacemakers'...a lot of plagiarism happened then as it is happening now i am convinced.
FEEL LIKE JEWISH
"I still believe in a God, and draw strength from the hope that there is a purpose in all of this suffering."
I was never a Christian. My beliefs once consisted of your above mentioned statement. I believed in an all loving God who gave those who suffered justice in the end. Face the facts my friend. There is no puropse to suffering. The world can be a cruel and unjust place. One of the hardest things for me to accecpt when I finally threw God belief and the afterlife out the window was the fact that those who are truly fucked in this earthly life, are just that, truly fucked and unfortunately guys like Hitler and Stalin get a free pass to the peaceful abyss.
xrayman
http://www.ligonier.org/rym.php
http://www.redeemer.com/#Begin
http://highlands.gospelcom.net/
http://www.christkirk.com/
Isn't that pretty much what every new denomination and movement believes? It seems to me they look back to times that have been idealized in their imaginations. Instead, wouldn't it be wonderful if we used our imaginations to idealize the future, and then work to create the best one we can?
Jamie.
Ahh, yes! Go there for the TRUE truth! All those other 30,000 or so denominations are heretics or misguided believers. Believe THESE doctrines and you can become a True Christian.
Brent, you just don't get it.
Your last paragraph says it all. Add "God" to that list of things that man has created and you will be on your way to the truth.
i am not here to rehab any christian denomination....i thought this was an ex - xtian web site. the christians can believe whatever they want to ..it is not my problem..i BELIEVE FULLY THAT the christian prophet is a fake....i have a right to my personal belief in a non violent way especially as a disciple of ST. JUDAS ISCARIOT, my prince of peace and a meek guy. the christians can punish me with bankruptcy, death and debilitation to me and my family....i am ready for martyrdom in the name of my gurus ST. JUDAS ISCARIOT AND LORD CAIAPHAS. i don't need to be rehabilitated by any reformationists. i am a born again jew boy ...will always be...
peace,
ST. JUDAS ISCARIOT'S DISCIPLE
Brent- With your fingers together, gently reach up around the base of your neck and retract the sphincter outwardly. In one fluid motion lean backwards and down. This maneuver will successfully extricate your head from your ass! The newly available oxygen rich blood supply may allow your brain to function normally. Good luck.
st. judas iscariot's disciple - you said:
the christians can punish me with bankruptcy, death and debilitation to me and my family....i am ready for martyrdom in the name of my gurus ST. JUDAS ISCARIOT AND LORD CAIAPHAS.
YOU SOUND LIKE A TERRORIST TO ME!
You also sound like another delusional mindless moron with yet another ridiculous irrational belief.
When will it ever end???????????
Noell
"I will build my Church, and the gates of hell WILL NOT prevail against it." -- Jebus
In other words, according to the B-I-B-L-E, NO.
I am no terrorist....martyrdom means willing to be punished for my beliefs....not to hurt others and die....idiot....martyrdom is something like what your christ himself supposedly did....let others crucify him..do not try to define me or redefine me or brand me....ask me first
ST. JUDAS ISCARIOT'S DISCIPLE
One more thing....one single miracle and i will convert to christianity.....i have been having this persistent dandruff problem for years....will it go away..if it does, i will convert..i am serious..LORD CAIAPHAS all he asked for proof..like what they would do in today's courts....why is it so irrational to ask for proof? think before you call me a mindless moron....if i claim i have some miracles would you not ask for proof and if there is not any will you not call me a fake....
I FEEL LIKE A JEW BOY NOW....
to India's Jewry:
http://www.cpamedia.com/travel/india_jews/
to Russell's classic:
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b1b0e81027e.htm
read the two links and let us see who is delusional....i escaped delusionists i am not one of em..the christians can believe whatever they want to it is not my problem..they must leave others that don't believe with them alone....
TOLERANCE get it?
Peace, Peace and Peace is my religion......
The 'true church' (no man-made building or donomination - but that church of saints that Jesus is the head off) has not been 'prevailed' against. Sure it's continuously attacked but no one or thing has prevailed over it - and there have been many attempts to wipe it out or prevail against it. I couldn't say the same thing in regards to the 'christian religion' (IE the various man made denominations, churches, cults etc) in the world.
Sure many terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity. Some plain evil, some mistakes by well meaning people. It's a mystery to me why (as are many things of God!) God chooses us humans, with all our faults, to be his people and his church. I know in my Christian walk I've done things many things I wish I hadn't (like thinking I knew it all and telling others the 'facts') but I still believe that God wants to use me - warts and all.
And for those who demand miracles (I've got bad dandruff too) - you may be disappointed - God says in His word that "without faith it is impossible to please God". Sure the cynical will say thats handy but I believe (and don't necessarily understand again) that for some reason God wants us to believe in Him without absolute demonstrations and that we already have enough evidence to use our God given intellect and logic to do this.
Being a creationist - I firmly believe that there is easily enough evidence of an intelligent designer all around us.
Let's look at your question again: "Lets just imagine that there is God and a Devil, and that the message of hope from the Bible is true. Would it be a good strategy for the devil to create as many different denominations/doctrines etc as possible? Attack the church from within? Let those considering the 'truth' see hypocrosy, confusion etc? A yes or no answer will be fine."
Again, the answer, based on Jebus' own words, is no.
You said "Attack the church from within" and then you say that the true church has never been prevailed against. Which is it?
It is a over used denominational tactic to proclaim that "my" denomination is the "true Church" and casually dismiss centuries worth of history and thousands and millions of sincere believers as "not true Christians" or "not the true Church" or whatever. Although your little question might sound good in your head, it doesn't have any support from your Bible.
Jebus said he would build and protect his church and that the Holy Spirit would lead believers into all truth. That sounds fairly supernatural to me. In fact, it sounds like a promise. However, what has been the reality of the last 20 centuries? Quite a bit of chaos.
You think you are the "true church" and a "true Christian" but millions of others before you believed they were "true Christians" and you merely dismiss them with a wave.
I wonder what the next generation of Christians will think about your version of Christianity. Think about it.
Read George Will on why creationism and evolution may not contradict. I am not here to reopen old debates about science vs. religion. There is a huge reading list that goes back hundreds of years.
I have a full time job and a handful of woes. I don't want anyone to preach any personal morals to me anymore. I know the laws of the land that I respect fully.
I need to get on with my life and may not post anything on this site further. There is just no time. I am just too busy now !!
Best regards to you and other sparrers on this blog,
THE DISCIPLE
The answer is both! You can be both attacked and not be prevailed against at the same time. Attacking is just an attempt to prevail. As I said in my previous post - the world "Christian Church" (whatever that is) is in chaos I agree - and I believe this is part of Satan's strategy to keep people away from God.
"My demonination" is not the true church and I never said it is. The true church is made up with God's people who may be from many (or none) man made denominations.
And freethinker - you need to understand what faith means. Even the dictionary definition of the word faith doesn't require successful supernatural feats!
A quote from dictionary.com;
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing:
2. belief that is not based on proof
So I disagree that I discount you and me in not pleasing God with faith with my statement just because we're not moving mountains.
Oh, of course. The invisible church. So now not only is your God invisible, your debil is invisible and the church is invisible.
So it's the invisible church that has never been prevailed against. The visible church is attacked by the invisible debil, but it is the invisible church that hasn't been prevailed against, and some visible churches haven't been prevailed against, but of course some have, like the Catholic church, for instance, and Mormons and JWs, and other heresies...
An I closer to understanding your idea here?