A tale of two books (one religion, one science)

sent in by Deb

A thick Southern Baptist reference book and Bible study guide published in 1914 and belonging to an elderly relative had an honored place in our living room bookshelf when I was a child. It had the most fascinating drawings of floating cities, Jesus cruising around in the sky, men and angels wrestling, devils playing chess with humans (and their souls were the prize if they lost), and Armageddon. This was one of my mother's books, which I still have today. At the age of 9 I would entertain myself looking at the drawings and marvel at them. Did grown men and women really believe such fantastic things as floating cities and devils? I certainly had a very hard time doing so. My father explained that it was nonsense and not to worry about it.

The other thick book that was so important to me was Dad's "The Fossil Book" by Mildred Adams Fenton and Carroll Lane Fenton. It, too, had fascinating line drawings. But these were drawings of animals and plants of the ancient past. I learned the long and difficult names, and tried to understand the geologic periods in which the little beasts and plants lived.

I talked about this book with my mother one day and I will never forget what she said. She told me that there were never such things and that the scientists made them up. When I asked her why the scientists would do that, she said something to the effect that there was no reference to these creatures and plants in the Bible, thus they never existed. Her pastor said so.

I knew deep in my heart that something was not right here. Why would scientists make such things up, and how? I liked science in school, and had a positive attitude about it. I strongly suspected that the things that were made up were in fact those fanciful characters and events in the 1914 book! I don't know why that incident shaped my entire approach to religion afterwards. Perhaps it was because I suspected that many pastors were lying to their congregations. I had been to church for several years when a very young child, but my mother stopped going at about the time I turned 8. She and my father had frequent conflicts about church and she could not get him to go. I was not too sad about not attending church regularly. I had often vowed privately that I would invent my own religion when I grew up and it was not going to resemble what the church taught, since it seemed so weird.

When I went to public high school, my 9th grade English class had us reading the Bible as literature. This unit came right after the unit on Greek and Roman mythology. We read the first ten books of the Bible. The teacher took a very reverent approach and acted as if every word was true (how dare she not?) but the lesson I came away with was that those rather preposterous events we were reading in Genesis especially were just as mythic as the Greek myths. The teacher was not amused with my product for a short story we were assigned where we took on the point of view of an animal that rode along on the Ark. I chose a polar bear and tried to show how utterly absurd it would be for a polar bear and mate to somehow get on their own from Greenland to the Middle East to board an ark!

All in all, I am very grateful to both my parents for many things, among them not making me go to church past the age of 8.

Female
Virginia USA
Never really became a Christian, just went to church
I never really was a Christian but tried to hide that fact to fit in with school friends and please some family members
Deist, Buddhist
I never really converted to Christianity, so I did not technically deconvert

34 comments:

Rowan said...

Thanks! Great story, and good for you. I wish I read more like that! :) A very enjoyable read.

Rising_L said...

Yeah good story!!

I love the Penguins and Polar bears, theory. I have yet to meet a christian that has given me an answer for that!

Shannon said...

Great story. I had the World Book Encyclopedias before I had the bible. Can't even compare the two.

Sarge said...

My father in law was born in 1892, lived until 1987. Before the Wright brothers flew, he was punished both at home and school for blasphemey because he said that people would fly (they already were with balloons) and that they would go to the moon. His mother kept a boarding house, and many of the guests were railway engineers (the slide rule rather than the engine driver sort) and they "proved" arithmaticly that flight (heavier than air) "didn't figure". Could never happen.

People believe that the dead come back to life, perform miracles, walk on water, etc. but, flight was impossible. I can't figure it out.

Nietzschean Superman said...

This fucking hate site of atheist bigotry never changes!

Ian said...

To you maybe, but to people like us, it's showing that not all of christianity is love and peace, and that some parts of it are downright disturbing.

And don't forget that many members here have had bad experiences upon leaving christianity (Friends turning against them for one thing), realizing that, to them, it's a myth, and getting angry upon realizing that years of thier lives were apparently wasted.

Shannon said...

Nietzschean Superman,

Are you going to kiss Jesus' feet with that mouth?

boomSLANG said...

Yes Shannon....Super-dork should stick to kissing Jesus' feet, because according to the Christian hand-book, that's the only part of the body that Jesus requires of people to be clean----the "feet". LMAO!

GoneNsane said...

These fucking hate messages of Christian ignorance never change!

J. C. Samuelson said...

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, great story!

So your parents were on opposite ends of the spectrum. That had to have been difficult. I wonder if your mom said what she said because her mother did the same when she was a child, so she thought is was the right thing to do. That is, did she really believe it, or was she an "ex-christian in the pews?"

The polar bear bit is the best part! Did your reverent teacher even attempt an answer, or just get mad?

Bentley said...

To answer Sarge, the Heavens and the clouds above were believed to be the residence of God, Jesus and the Heavenly Angels, until the Wright Bro.s discovered powered flight, and now since the invention of jet flight, Christians have conveniently moved the residence of Heaven and God, etc. into the unknown depts of outerspace.

Since God knows everything, including even the numbers of hairs on everyones head, which just happens to be very important to God, but now since he's moved into outerspace, he no longer knows how many hairs is on everybodys head.

It's such a shame now that God and Jesus and Heaven is being chopped up into shreds every day by Jet Travel.

Of course now the Tower of Bable Story must certainly be true, because God did not want people to reach Heaven, but he didn't think that the Wright Brothers would be smart enough to invent an Airplane to see that there is no God and Jesus in the clouds.

God ain't too smart!

Sarge said...

Ben, my point is that people can believe something as ridiculous as the innerrency of scripture (people coming to life from death, walking on water, original sin, loaves/fishes, a person is sacrificed for mankind, but this salvation seems to be bound with all sorts of caveats and odd rules which render it inefficient at best, even if you believe it, which I don't) but that they questioned and disbelieved things that which were at thier fingertips (fossils, technology, cleanliness, anesthesia for childbirth). I see it even today.

Bentley said...

Yea I agree Sarge, just imagine 2000 years ago, where did anyone get any information from? By what was handed down from others that they thought that the elders knew more than them, because they had lived on earth longer than them. They could only resort to their own imagination and they presumed it was from a god telling them what to write, and we have people living today that are no more intelligent than those that lived over 2000 years ago.

To believe the bible nonsense, a person actually has to stoop down to the bible writers level of ignorance, in order to accept it as being true.

This is what makes Christians so mad at nonbelievers, it's because they have been forced by fear and by threats of a hell, that they detest anyone that refuses to stoop down to their level of ignorance and they are made to believe the shit out of fear, it's forced mental slavery, and they must profess publicly in front of others nutjobs, that they have fallen to the level of religious slavery, and now they are committed by their own admission, under duress from the preacher.

This is what makes all religions a cult, they have to wash your ability to think, reason and question, away, now they have you and your mind.

Anonymous said...

the sad thing is is that you couldnt take gods word for it and yet you so willingly take some people you dont even know simply because it contradicted what your parrents and preacher believed yet could defend in such a conversation. did you happen to go and research yourself? there is a huge thing i've noticed about science: it changes, constantly. it becomes outdated and old. i mean what scientist today would say that the earth is flat? or that our world is held on the shoulders of a big guy named atlas? but yet that was the science of the time. know something about the truths in the bible? it has never changed. before people knew the earth was round, the bible spoke of it calling it "a marble in the sky, not hanging on anything". (i've badly paraphased this but i am only 15. what your mother was trying to do by telling you the scientists were lying was protct you from losing the faith that you never had. questions and doubt may plague the mind but what would knowing everything solve? this is where faith comes in. as for old "ben" and "sarge" i dare you to call lee stroble ignorant. look him up. i dare any of you to step out on your "beliefs" (or lack thereof) and actually research some of the difficult questions plaguing you. there are answers and theres always google. several sites i can suggest are: bibleprobe.com, http://www.godrules.net/evolutioncruncher/default.htm, www.everystudent.com, www.drdino.com, http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation.htm, http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/fossilboot.html, http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/index.shtml. if those dont intrest you, pick up a book by lee strobel. specifically "the case for a creator", "the case for faith", and "the case for christ". lee strobel set out to disprove all christian beliefs and upon his inability to do so, became a christian. as for "ben"'s other comment about heaven, if you had the common sense to know what you are talking about then you would have read in the bible about how there are three heavens: the sky, space, and the place where you are refering to is. the third cannot be reached by physical means. it lays on an entirely different plain than our own. it is reached by those who place their faith in the lord jesus christ. back to ben calling christians ignorant, read all of this and the things i have mentioned and call me ignorant. i have spent countless hours doing what you havent, searched deep for the answers. god has more than just blind faith in store for me, he is equiping me to deal with my own and other people's doubts. with this i leave you with a god bless you and the knowledge that i have you in my prayers, all of you who have either missed the truth or gave into doubt.
- JESUS FREAK!

Emaneul Goldstein said...

My beliefs do not reflect what I was raised to believe. I was raised by an atheist fanatic and I want no part of that system.

I saw their "freethought" meeting every Saturday nite in the basement.

I have most of his 2400+ library and have read about 40 percent of that propaganda.

I know what the unretrained syphillitic mind of fanatics like Nietzsche promoted and others carried out.

I have stared into the face of the abyss.

I post from my basement across the world on a legion of sites until this is known world wide.

Bentley said...

Yeah you little brainwashed nincompoop! You want your bible and silly beliefs to become so true that you are willing to accept fantastic apologetic answers just like the rest of those websites.

And BTW it's apparent that you've not read many testimonies on here before you started spewing your religious propaganda apologetics.

You're change your ignorant mind one of these days when you come out of your newfound jesus mind fog.

I was refering to Genisis 11:4 And they said; Let us go and build a city and a tower, whose top may reach the heavens.

Does this sound like unreachable space to you? Give up the semantics! Oh you wise sage, you gave up countless hours of research for your apologetic answers.

You must remember that the bible has been translated over 1600 times and it has been re-written and doctored and patched to fit people's desire for the fairytale to look as to become true, you remind me of Emanual Goldstein another idiot!

I've never been to any Atheist meetings, why should I, I do not need any reinforcement from anyone else for be me know that the bible is all a bunch of lies, but christians have to go to church every week to have the lie that they are trying to believe reinforced upon them, to keep their faith in the imaginary god revived and have to pay a preacher to tell them their sweet little lies that you all so greatly admire and long for.

.:webmaster:. said...

Goldie, you've posted that same message on this site at least 150 times over the last few years.

Tell you what, break out of your troll mode and tell us who you really are. Become a real live human being instead of an anonymous Internet troll. It will give your story more validity.

.:webmaster:. said...

Hey Goldie, I attended a church where the pastor gave supernatural "words of wisdom," spoke in "tongues" and layed hands on people to heal them. He also was having an illitict affair with one of the congregant's wife.

I know what the unrestrained lust-crazed mind of fanatics like my pastor promoted and others carried out.

I have stared into the face of the abyss.

I run this site from my home to encourage others across the world that Christianity is a mind controlling false cult.

freedy said...

I noticed you mentioned your dad twice.You are lucky to have a free thinker for a dad.My dad is an evolutionist and has helped me to deconvert and shake the myths of the bible.

Ian said...

Anonymous (or Jesus freak, whichever works for you):

If Christianity works for you, then that's fine. Pretty much every non-christian on this website has been a christian at one time or another, believed the doctrines and the bible, and eventually left.

"i have spent countless hours doing what you havent, searched deep for the answers. god has more than just blind faith in store for me, he is equiping me to deal with my own and other people's doubts."

I have done my research on the bible too, and after several months of work the conclusion i've come to? The bible is just another holy book, much like the koran, the torah, the book of the dead, etc. The more and more I read about it, the less divine it becomes, and the more human it becomes. For every passage that seems to strike one as true (such as the marble one that you mention...and I noticed that it's location in the bible is not disclosed so we can look it up for ourselves), there are others that are nonsense, such as rabbits chewing thier cud (Lev 11:4-6),How God will go forth as a mighty man and roar, and when he's tired of roaring and crying, he'll destroy and devour (Isaiah 42:13-14), Lions eating straw like oxen (Isaiah 11:7),a 30 foot flying scroll that burns down the houses of thieves and liars (Zechariah 5: 1-4), so on and so forth.

The more I read the bible and the more I do research on it, the less and less credible it becomes as the holy word of God. When you actually read the bible, it's kind of a joke really. And I used to believe it. Boy, I should have read all of it back then.

And by the way, the bible has changed. It's been edited, trimmed, modified and re-written slightly throughout the ages as it's been handed down from generation to generation. Do we really need the passages about slavery any more? Why not take them out? After all, they have no use in today's world. You noted that science is constantly changing, and that's correct. It adapts, evolves and self-corrects as it goes on and people learn more. Religions on the other hand, don't change very much, if at all. They are light years behind science in terms of evolving and adapting.

As for Mr. Strobel, I don't care about him. I've done my own research and come to different conclusions then he has. Ever heard of Mithras? Or Horus? Try looking thier lives up. You might find some interesting similarities between thier lives and Jesus. Especially with Mithras. His faith strongly suggests that christian writters copied many elements of it onto thier own works.

You say you're fifteen. Well, at least you're honest. I was your age when I joined christianity. Here I am, five years later, no longer a christian, more spiritual and more happy then i've ever been in my life. My relationship with God is stronger, I have more self-confidence and I am no longer intimidated so much by christian fears and threats of hell. I was kept bound by it as a christian, but diddn't know it at the time. Hindsight is a nice thing. I have also reached the point where I no longer am intimidated by others beliefs, and where others beliefs do not cast doubt on mine. When you get to the point where you are secure enough in what you believe in that you are not fearful every time someone causes you doubt, then you're doing pretty well in my book.

"if you had the common sense to know what you are talking about then you would have read in the bible about how there are three heavens: the sky, space, and the place where you are refering to is. the third cannot be reached by physical means. it lays on an entirely different plain than our own. it is reached by those who place their faith in the lord jesus christ."

I'm sorry, but I find that highly amusing because I once thought as you did. I still believe in heaven, and that we do have a place where we came from in the spiritual, but how you get there is not determined by if you place your faith in Jesus. It depends on how much you love people and love others. God gives everyone a fair chance of going to heaven with the law of cause and effect: You go where you fit in. This system is fair because it allows everyone, atheist or theist, an equal chance to get to heaven. The more you love and are a loving person, you'll easily gravitate to where you fit in. So a kind and loving atheist has an advantage over a fear based, hateful jewish (or christian) person.

One last question: Do you think when you get to heaven, God is going to ask you...

A. "Did you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior?"
or
B. "How many people did you love and help during your life on earth?"

I used to believe the answer was "A", but now, after a lot of searching, reasoning and thinking, I believe the answer is "B". I'm willing to bet my immortal soul on it. Are you up for doing that?

If Christianity works for you, then feel free to keep following it. All we ask is that you don't go around calling us the unsaved, the lost, the confused, the hell-bound, etc. Treat us the way you want to be treated. And keep learning, keep evolving and keep growing. It worked for me, so it should work for you.

I will leave you with this rather nice formula that a friend recently gave me:

The magic pill for bringing all of us to Utopia and paradise on earth:

Part One- STOP WAITING FOR A SAVIOUR.

Part Two- GET YOURSELF TOGETHER.

Part Three- HELP SOMEONE ELSE GET THEMSELVES TOGETHER.

Emanuel Goldstein said...

Yeah, I wish my dad could have helped me.

He was horribly disabled at the hands of practitioners of an atheistic philosphy and was never able to help me.

I fell in to the hands of my atheistic uncle instead, which had the effect of allowing me to see the bankruptcy of the whole system.

Your atheism only means that you think all existence is explained by mindless processess, which has yet to be demonstrated.

Oh, I know, atheism is simply lack of belief and has no other implications...horsecrap; if it has no implications then its meaningless.

And BEN, about those 1680 translations you moron...translate from the Greek to the English, ONE translation. Study a foreign language if you weren't raised around one...translation is not a problem, unless you are just stupid.

And if a pastor who can have an affair can be a basis for blaming Christianity...atheists who have committed mass murders can be a basis for blaming atheshits.

Unless they weren't REAL atheists. Bahahahahahahahahahahaha!

And if you don't believe me, WEBMASTER MAN, guess what...I "lack beleif" in your story as well!!

And quit calling me a bigoted term like "goldie".

.:webmaster:. said...

As well you should doubt me, goldfish. Doubt is a good thing, even when dealing with a living, breathing human being.

I wonder why dealing with an entity that can be neither seen, smelled, tasted, touched, or felt, that slavering belief makes sense?

Human beings do bad things. It doesn't matter if they are Christian, Islamist, Animist, Atheist, or any other "ian or ist."

Once Christianity gained accendency, the history of western civilization was soaked in the blood of any who opposed Christianity.

Goldfinger, your fanatical campaign, posting on site, after site, after site, after site, shows you really do have some mental issues. Prayer won't help. Please get some help.

.:webmaster:. said...

Goldenrod said: "Your atheism only means that you think all existence is explained by mindless processess, which has yet to be demonstrated."

Ah, no. Not at all. My atheism only means that I don't know the explanation for all of existence.

And, neither do you, Goldmember. You simply can't stand to admit you don't know, and would rather believe that an amplified Santa in the sky did it.

God did it = God idiot.

freedy said...

Emanuel,"god is not with us"

Sounds like you have some daddy issues!You need to seek help from a (non pastoral) counselor and deal with "da da" anger issues!By the way alot of people here are agnostic, so your blanket rantings against atheists are not fair,...you need to include us too!
F.Y.I.,..there are nuts everywhere,..including atheist dads,..(sorry bout your pop man).

muttmutt1978 said...

Im not atheist. I come here to find like minded people that have been through what i have been through. Sure there will be hit and runs from ignorant hateful people of a certain religion, but thats what curse spells are for. I know ive done nothing wrong, maybe im intolerant of christians but they are natural enemies to Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics and other forms of free thought.

Herb said...

Jesus Freak,

Where in the Bible does it say that the earth is a marble? In Isaiah, I believe, it talks about the earth being a circle. A circle is two dimensional, a sphere is three dimensional. The Hebrews had a word for sphere, so why didn't the Bible writer use it instead of circle? An ancient belief was that the earth was a flat circle held up by pillars.

You think that you are well informed by reading Christian apologetics. Christians are not objective. They start with a preferred belief and then try to find data to back up their position while ignoring or explaining away data that it contrary to their position.

You are only 15, maybe you will wise up someday. I used to read Christian apologetics. At the time, I thought they presented good arguments. I now know how empty their arguments are. I wised up when I was 26. There's still time for you.

sbwilley said...

Jesus Freak:

You mentioned three books by Strobel, but you don't seem to have read the Bible.

There is no reference to the Earth being a marble hanging in space. It says, "He stretches out the north over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing." Job 26:7. In the same chapter of Job it says the earth was inscribed as a circle on the waters (26:10) and that heaven was set on pillars (26:11).

Then it mentions something fascinating -- Rahab and the fleeing serpent -- in Job 26:12-13. Rahab was part a Character from a Babylonian creation story, Enuma Elish. In the story, the great god Marduk tore the serpent Rahab in pieces, creating the land and the seas from parts of her carcass. In Ugaritic and Canaanite versions of the story, the creator annually battled with and subdued the fleeing serpent, variously known as Tiamat and Lotan (Leviathan is conjugate). Ancient Near Eastern Texts contains the complete tales of primordial battle. You may be able to find it at your local library. If not, ask your minister about loaning you a copy. If he doesn't have one, he should be able to get ahold of it from his seminary.

This is not the only place in the Bible where Rahab is mentioned (we are not talking about Rahab the harlot in Joshua; she was not torn in pieces by God and has nothing to do with this story). Rahab is also mentioned in Psalms: "Thou Thyself didst crush Rahab like one who is slain." (Psalm 89:10). In Isaiah, the prophet asks rhetorically, "Was it not Thou who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?" (Isaiah 51:9).

THESE BIBLE WRITERS HAVE EQUATED MARDUK WITH THE LORD, YAHWEH AND THUS ATTESTED TO A CREATION STORY THAT IS NOT THE ONE YOU LEARNED ABOUT IN SUNDAY SCHOOL.

The description of Leviathan in Job 41 is astounding. I have heard Christian ministers say it was a crocodile, a shark or a rhino. I even heard one minister lie to a little girl on the radio when she asked if there were dinosaurs on earth before the flood. He referred her to Job 41. These apologists disregard the history of the dragon characters. They also ignore the fact that the fleeing serpent is multi-headed (Psalm 74:13), fire-breathing (Job 41:18-21), impenetrable to swords, spears and javelins (Job 41:26), and wears double mail (Job 41:13-17, 23-24). It couldn't have been a dinosaur because Isaiah 27:1 said he would live in the sea until the deliverance of Israel (Isaiah 27:1).

I have more to tell you about your statements regarding heaven and science. I hope to find time later this evening.

Herb said...

Jesus Freak,

If you are still reading this site, regarding Lee Strobel, there are detailed critiques of his apologetics at the web site "caseagainstfaith.com". A good book that argues against Lee Stobel's apologetics concerning the historical existence of Jesus is Earl Doherty's "Challenging the Verdict". Earl Doherty is a good writer and can be impressive to people who want to believe, but to open minded and skeptical people his arguments hold no water. To me, Christianity is a non-defensible belief system.

.:webmaster:. said...

To Herb: ?

Herb said...

Sorry, Webmaster
I said:
Earl Doherty is a good writer and can be impressive to people who want to believe, but to open minded and skeptical people his arguments hold no water. To me, Christianity is a non-defensible belief system.

I meant Lee Strobel.

J. C. Samuelson said...

Those of you who've seen me around know I can't leave well enough alone, even when I have better things to do.

Anonymous Jesus Freak enlightened us with:

"...you so willingly take some people you dont even know simply because it contradicted what your parrents and preacher believed yet could defend in such a conversation."

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a person's deconversion is the result of some juvenile sense of rebellion. Being that you're a teenager, it's easy to understand you might think that way. After all, the feeling of wanting to rebel is part of your daily existence.

Read more of the testimonies here to get a better sense of the many reasons for de-conversion.

As for taking the word of a stranger, you're going to find that throughout your life you are forced to rely on information provided by those you don't know personally. As it pertains to your little diatribe here, are you trying to say you know Lee Strobel personally? What about the authors, contributors, or webmasters of the sites you list? Or, like so many others, do you consider them authoritative merely because what they have to say happens to agree with your worldview?

"did you happen to go and research yourself?"

Of course not. Are you implying that your own personal research has debunked evolution, or any other accepted scientific theory for that matter? No, you rely on people like Dr. Dino and others. What else could you do?

"there is a huge thing i've noticed about science: it changes, constantly. it becomes outdated and old."

As you should know from school, there are basically four steps to the scientific method:

1. Observation/description of phenomena

2. Develop a hypothesis to explain the phenomena

3. Predict other related phenomena and/or further observations of the phenomena being studied

4. Test the hypothesis

It is one of the advantages of the scientific method that the best explanation of a particular phenomena today might be shown to be incorrect tomorrow, or missing certain particulars. In simple terms the mark of a good scientific theory is that it is ultimately falsifiable. That's the purpose of the final step.

If a particular hypothesis fails, it does not become a scientific theory and the researcher is forced to analyze what went wrong. In some cases, the researcher must start from scratch.

Creationism is not good science because it fails to be testable and therefore falsifiable. There are no experiments, and no need to because the "researchers" have already concluded that God did it. The Bible is taken as a science manual and infallible. What need for science?

"know something about the truths in the bible? it has never changed."

Fine for moral platitudes or statements on human nature; bad for science.

"before people knew the earth was round, the bible spoke of it calling it "a marble in the sky, not hanging on anything". (i've badly paraphased this but i am only 15."

You're old enough to read the Bible. If you're too lazy to do so, don't bother quoting it, even badly. In fact, I'll even help you. Your version (and many others) can be found at Biblegateway.com.

Nowhere in the Bible does it mention a marble, or anything spherical as it relates to the shape of the earth.

Don't believe me? Here's a critique of the creationist argument that the Bible teaches a spherical earth. Incidentally, this is from the American Scientific Affiliation (a Christian source).

"what your mother was trying to do by telling you the scientists were lying was protct you from losing the faith that you never had."

First, there is no great conspiracy of scientists to hide the truth. Second, until you've walked a mile in our shoes, don't presume to tell us we never had faith.

On a lighter note, how can one lose a faith one never had, eh?

"questions and doubt may plague the mind but what would knowing everything solve? this is where faith comes in."

No one will ever know everything, but faith is not the answer. Searching for knowledge ends with the faith most Christians advocate. I prefer the search to continue.

"...i dare you to call lee stroble ignorant."

Dunno about Ben or Sarge, but I'll do it: Lee Strobel is an ignorant Christian hack. There. Still waiting for God to strike me down...

"i dare any of you to step out on your "beliefs" (or lack thereof) and actually research some of the difficult questions plaguing you. there are answers and theres always google."

Done. I've looked at both sides, read all of Lee Strobel's books, Josh McDowell, William Dembski, Michael Behe, Kent Hovind (Dr. Dino), and read much of the material on the web promoting Christianity. I'll wager that I've read the Bible in whole and in part more times than you have years on this earth. I've been a contemporary Praise Leader at two churches (one of them as a paid staff member) and held multiple Bible Study groups in my home.

The result? Christianity was found wanting.

May I suggest that it is you who needs to step out of your beliefs and examine what the counter-arguments are.

"...pick up a book by lee strobel. specifically "the case for a creator", "the case for faith", and "the case for christ". lee strobel set out to disprove all christian beliefs and upon his inability to do so, became a christian."

Lee Strobel's works are effectively debunked here.

"...if you had the common sense to know what you are talking about..."

Personal attacks (also known as ad hominem) are no way to have a discussion. You are passionate, there is no doubt of that, but you will never succeed in a debate by belittling your opponent.

"...read all of this and the things i have mentioned and call me ignorant."

You have shown yourself to be ignorant throughout your post. However, being young you're not beyond hope. Read. Explore. Learn. This will cure you.

"i have spent countless hours doing what you havent, searched deep for the answers."

Countless hours? You're only 15 for crying out loud! Many here were Christian for more years than you've been alive, and have done this and more. Care to compare resum├ęs?

"god has more than just blind faith in store for me, he is equiping me to deal with my own and other people's doubts."

He's not doing a very good job. I'd file a complaint.

Anonymous said...

Well now, these are some very interesting agruements. I would encourage any of you who are "ex-christians" to go to a youth convention in your area. You don't have to be a youth, just go and observe the teenagers. Take in what you see and hear, even if it's to find a flaw in something. Better yet, go to a youth convention where Jeff Deyo is leading worship and see what happens. Let me ask anyone who will answer; do you want to convince people that christianity is a "false" religion? Do you want people to listen to your arguements against christianity with an open mind? I want anyone who will take me up on my challenge and go to a youth convention, to go with an open mind. Just the same thing that you are probably wanting me to do. So will you go? As for the 15 year old Jesus Freak and his reference to Lee Strobel, you are right on!! Lee Strobel's books are magnificant and very informative. I would encourage anyone to read them, christians, ex-christians, or neither, just pick one up and read it. I can't help but wonder how many of you ex-christians have ever really prayed. I mean a hearfelt, ernest prayer. Let it come from your heart, you guys do know what that means right? I could write forever and ever telling all you ex-christains my testimony and the testimony of others, but that would take way to long and frankly would be rather pointless if you don't listen with an open mind. If you'd like to hear my testimony or the testimony of anyone else I know, let me know on this site. I assure you, you won't regret hearing some of the testimonies, as well as my own, that I can tell you. Now, I'm no youth pastor, or preacher, or anything like that, I'm just a 17 year old girl who's life has been completely changed by Jesus. I'm also a Jesus Freak. But that title is better left to the guys, I prefer Jesus Chick!!!
God bless and I'm praying for you!
Loves!!!

Anonymous said...

To see anonymous'(Jesus Chick's) comments go to "post a comment" on the bottom of the page and then go all the way down to the last comment on the "post a comment" page. Thank You.

.:webmaster:. said...

Jesus Chick,

I was a Christian longer than you've been alive. I'm 48, and have had all the tingly religious experiences I need.

Since you are younger than all three of my own kids, I'll leave my comments to that.

Have a nice day.

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