Truth? What truth?

My parents were saved before I was born, and can be labeled religious fanatics! To their credit, they have been consistent in their beliefs for more than 50 years, and as far as I know, their only sins are little ones … but let me start at the beginning.

My first church attendance was at the age of 2 weeks, the first of too many to count. At the age of 16, I went with my parents to the mission field, and ended up staying overseas for 29 years, working in the secular world and raising my children. This whole time I was heavily involved in music at church, Bible studies, etc. and my parents were pursuing their missionary career.

I always dreaded the prayer meetings when everyone was expected to pray around the room. I don’t think I ever prayed for God’s benefit. Not a public speaker, I was more concerned on my presentation to those around, and would think of what to say until it became my turn. And if somebody before me prayed about my chosen subject, I panicked!

I always wondered why I didn’t feel on the inside like I was presenting on the outside. I didn’t love Jesus with all my heart, although I tried and wondered how to make it happen. I didn’t pray without ceasing, or meditate on the Bible, although I have memorized countless verses (KJV). I often had doubts, like how could God send all those unenlightened people to hell because they had never heard of Jesus, and how the contradictions of the Bible were explained. And which parts to take literally (which was almost everything, except those parts that could not be explained, which were obviously meant to be taken figuratively). I often thought that I would probably be a Muslim or Jew if I had been born in the Middle East. My brother and sisters are also missionaries, and I felt like I was missing something because I never received the “call”. Incidentally, they always had more material things than I had, but I put that down to God providing for them.

January 2006 back in America – As a single mother I had taken on yet another parttime job to make life easier. I let my Sunday School teacher know that I would be working short term on Sunday mornings and would miss Sunday School for several weeks, but would make it to the worship service. His reply astounded me. He pointed out that (a) I was aiding and abetting people by providing a service during church time, (he went out to eat after church every week – how about the servers in the restaurants that had to skip church to prepare his food?); (b) my heart would not be in the proper mode for worship after having to work right before church (how could he judge the condition of my heart – or who knew if even the minister may have had a knock-down, drag out fight with his wife right before church but manage to put on a happy face in time to preach?); (c) I was giving a poor role my daughter because it was teaching her she didn’t have to go to church if she didn’t feel like it (I don’t remember a verse stating that church attendance was mandatory); (d) If I worked on Sundays, which day had I chosen as my Sabbath to rest; and (e) there must be something deeper inside that I would make such a decision. (No offer to help a struggling single mother, who gave a lot of time and effort to the church in many ways).

I never returned to church there, and the minister told me that this deacon was only concerned about my wellbeing. Actually, I felt like a burden had been lifted off my shoulders. I didn’t have to “pretend” anymore, I didn’t have to try to believe the things that had always bothered me.

Over the last year and a half, I have started to reject all the teachings that have brainwashed me all these years. The fundamental, evangelicals are so narrow-minded and holier-than-thou and I was wrapped up in.

But I feel “superstitious” like I will be struck down (remember Ananias and Sapphira?) for thinking such thoughts. But as time goes by, I am feeling more comfortable with my new thought patterns. I am happy and free … so what is the truth that will set me free? Not the illusive standards that I had been futilely trying to grasp for years.

Then I began to date a Catholic man and now we are ready to marry. But I have to tell my mother, and although I am 55 years old, I dread telling her, because this will be worse than heresy. She does not know my true feelings of being an ex-Christian.

Finding this site has been an eye-opener for me because I don’t feel so alone now. I’m scared to vocalize my feelings to my family because it will break the charm and bring shame upon the family who are pinnacles of the spiritual community, both here and overseas.

Advice from those of you who have gone before is welcome.

To monitor comments posted to this topic, use .

37 comments:

Chucky Jesus said...

Don't let their guilt trip haunt you. You are using your reason; if there is a god, what kind of god would it be that would resent using the mind "he" gave you?

I'm not sure why you have to even tell your mother anything. If you're 55, she may not be around much longer anyway (sorry for that, but I work in a cemetery and see it all the time). If you can avoid telling her, let her have her delusions that you follow her superstitions.

notabarbie said...

I completely understand. My parents still don't know.
Fortunately, they live far away and are elderly because I couldn't be dishonest with them either.

I know it's hard, but being true to yourself and your beliefs is where you will find real peace. Thank you for your honest testimony. Also take comfort in knowing that a lot of us here have gone through the same types of things.

Anonymous said...

Good luck, and congratulations!


I have one comment slightly related:

Why is "consistency" of belief praised?

If I said I have consistently believed in plate tectonics for over 20 years, should I get praise? On the contrary it's pretty absurd and humorous to hear that statement...

Or if I said I have consistently NOT believed in plate tectonics (as one of my old Galileaen friends used to say), should I get praise for my idiocy?

Good job holding your ground young man!

I don't think anyone interested in learning or knowing things actually ever praise themselves for "standing by" one thought.

Anonymous said...

Thanks to all of you who commented on my ex-testimony above. Today is my birthday and what a great gift it is to receive affirmation of a different kind! I am still hesitant because I think, "if what I have been taught all my life is right, and I am turning, then I am doomed!" But on the other hand, I still feel the same because I never seemed to fit in. I never had a "new creature" with old things passing away. My mother got us to pray for salvation on multiple occaions to make sure - we were too young to really understand(age3?) the first time, or as teenagers it was peer pressure, etc.
Now that my eyes are opened I can see how crazy all this was, and how the Bible has been molded to fit the situation, or vice versa.
Thank you all for a wonderful birthday present and I appreciate your support.

Michelle D. said...

Happy Birthday!

Congratulations on freeing yourself of the chains of christianity. I understand how you feel about the prayer thing. I never felt comfortable praying out loud in front of others, it felt like some kind of command performance. I never felt god's presence when I prayed in front of others, I was too afraid I would say something stupid, like they were dependent on me to evoke some kind of profound emotional response. I like keeping certain things to myself if I choose, and speaking my mind when I choose. I think of it as mental privacy.

Michelle D.

BoyGod666 said...

The one thing I would be concerned about is your marriage to a Catholic man.

Does he know fully how you are no longer a believer? As you leave the world of superstition there may be a real falling away as has happened to many here. Is he going to be able to handle it?

Sorry to be the wet blanket on your happiness, I just think that this kind of mixed marriage can be really difficult...

Anonymous said...

Do you ever look back and second guess your decision to "leave Christianity?" In other words do you ever stop and say, "what if God really is real?" No matter how Santa Claus like God may seem to me, I just cannot shake the notion that he just might be real. I have always lived by a philosophy that one should prove something to believe it is real, but I also keep the ideology that something should also be disproved to show it is not real. With Christianity, neither of these can be done. Help!

Anonymous said...

Thanks for all your comments. My soon-to-be husband as a Catholic is aware of my feelings, and is encouraging me because of my repressed background. Growing up we were not allowed to go to moves, never danced, didn't have TV for a while, could not swear (playing with mud, we built "Stopwaters" because dam was a bad word!). My family is judgemental even on "seekers" if they refer to "God" and not use "Jesus". After church or prayer meeting, I hear the criticism because the preacher didn't talk about the "blood" or the drums were too loud, or the testimonies were not sincere.

It is very cleansing to me to openly question all the propoganda. I wouldn't say I'm an atheist or have thrown away all my beliefs because this is still new to me in actually proclaiming the thoughts that have engulfed me for so long.

Is there an equivalent to desiring the "sincere milk of the un-word"?

boomSLANG said...

One of the many Anonymous posters said: I have always lived by a philosophy that one should prove something to believe it is real, but I also keep the ideology that something should also be disproved to show it is not real. With Christianity, neither of these can be done. Help!

You don't need "help"; you simply need to use your brain, objectively. Let's take a look at what you're saying:

So, since "Christ" cannot be proven one way, or the other, you take an Agnostic stance; "Christ" might be real because "He" cannot be proven false. Is that a fair assessment? Okay, then how about when it comes to the existance of "Allah"?... are you, too, "Agnostic"? And when it comes to the existence of Amon Ra? "Agnostic"? How about "Santa"?

I'll bet not; I bet you'll conclude, with near absolute certainty, that the latter three characters are in fact, not real, won't you? That's right, Anony'---remove your bias, and the picture comes into focus. Think about it.

George Davis said...

I wish you well as you begin this new journey. Please come back often and keep us informed how things are going!

AtheistToothFairy said...

"Do you ever look back and second guess your decision to "leave Christianity?" In other words do you ever stop and say, "what if God really is real?" No matter how Santa Claus like God may seem to me, I just cannot shake the notion that he just might be real"
----
Hi,

I can't speak for other ex-xtians, but I know for myself, the hardest times were when something negative would happen in my life. For a long time after giving up my beliefs, I would still wonder if god was punishing me for my disbelief of him during those negative times.

Of course, if god was really out to punish us, then one would have to assume there would be no positive moments, as he'd see to it that we were always suffering ,as punishment, until we returned to his flock.

Oddly enough, it always seem to me that each time in my life I asked god for ANYTHING, I could be sure that would be the very thing I wouldn't get from him.

I actually came to the conclusion that if I really really wanted something, I'd have a far better chance of not asking god for it, in order to obtain it.
It was like, god would wait to see what important things I would ask him for, just to play a cruel game of NOT giving me those very things I so desired from life.

So even if my faith had continued for this god, I had quickly learned if I really wanted something from him, never never never ask him for it.

Did anyone else ever feel that way?


AtheistToothFairy

freethinker05 said...

Sorry for LMAO, Dear testimonial poster, but I couldn't help it after reading about the part where you attended prayer meetings, and was frightened about what to pray about. Let me tell you girl, back when i attended wednesday night prayer meetings, heck, I would spend all day that day trying to think of what I was going to pray about; sometimes writing a prayer down on paper and then try and rememberize it. When it came my turn to pray I would get so nerveous; it was like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. Alot of times I started out saying somthing like, our heavenly father...pause...thinking to myself; come on dumbass, think of something to say. I finally thought up excuses not to go to church on wednesday nights.And talking about old (ananias and sapphia), Well, I took that as,(and was taught), I should pay my whole tithe and not hold back; thinking, if I give that much out of my check,(off the top gross at that), then what the crap was I going to drink beer with; my good looks,LOL...Peace, Roger P.S. All I pray...ooops,(THINK) about now is; damn, I can have all the good cold beer I want now.

freethinker05 said...

Oh, by the way, HAPPY 56th BIRTHDAY, Love, Roger

jfraysse said...

Happy Birthday and Welcome to this site and to your New Life!

I can relate to praying, in fact, didn’t Jesus teach us to pray in the closet!? I hate public prayer and still can’t figure it out other than to see it as a form of “group wishful thinking” with your eyes closed. Even Jesus never prayed publicly. Ever look around at others during this time? They ARE looking too! What a hoot!

But what exactly should I pray for anyway? I mean, I was supposed to pray that “God’s Will” would be done, right? Well, yeah, who can resist God’s will? And then he knows my needs before I actually speak them and we are taught not to worry about our needs. And since he knows the future and what I will and will not do and what will happen to me and others I love and the world, what the heck should I pray about? But then we are instructed that whatever we ask (in faith) will be granted, including moving mountains and healing the sick and infirmed. Geesh! The best thing that I could do was to be grateful and give thanks for my blessings – it did help my attitude and the idea of living a grateful life is still a good one for me.

Your parents are a tough situation for sure. I think it might be wise to assess your present level of “tolerance to church things” before telling them. I kinda look at religion like Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Halloween and will abide it as long as sound humanistic principles are not violated but I will not proselytize. If you live far enough anyway and can tolerate the occasional church visit, you could just stay in the closet (and pray, haha!) with respect to your parents. In effect, you are indulging their delusion for the sake of their peace of mind, a sacrifice that might be easy for you. But, YOU must determine this for yourself.

However, I would definitely talk over your views with your Catholic man before tying the knot. Also, I certainly hope your fundy parents don’t see your fiancĂ© as an “Implement of Satan” as they might blame him for pulling you into apostasy. If this happens, you will probably have to come out to them. Hang in there - It will get better!

Wishing you and your family all the best in your Journey! John

Steven Bently said...

I think it hardly ever occurs for people to question the Bible and it's teachings, it's is accepted here in America as an absolute fact.

We trust our elders to have already weighed and sorted through the evidence, we think surely they would not willingly cast us astray and steer us in the wrong direction.

We see the man (preacher) in the fancy suit and the beauty palor hair-do and shinny shoes, surely he would not mislead us.

We see uncle Joe the town drunk, who's found Jesus get up in front of hundreds of people on Sunday and give a rousing testimony on how Jesus has changed his life from drink and wild women, surely he would not cast us astray.

But even after all that, it's just a freaking belief, a belief created by ignorant men over 2000 years ago, that were afraid to die without a passage into eternal glorification, so they made it up, a ignorant belief to save them.

They've had over 2000 years to cough up some proof, and yet not one bit of evidence has been shown. Beliefs are not facts!

Don't give up, life gets easier without beliefs, you'll live calmer, without needless guilt and fear, you've seen people in a constant near panicked state, they have been brainwashed out of their common sense, these people are dangerous and many are our elected officials, they will destroy this country, and almost already have. Please keep in touch.

Nvrgoingbk said...

I've said it before regarding praying for God's "will" to be done and I'll say it again: It seems to me that if we are to pray for God's will to be done that we should just repeat the following: "Heavenly Father, do what you want since you're going to anyway. In Jesus' name, Amen"

I completely agree regarding never seeming to get what you ask for. Sure there were coincidences but for the most part, "anything you ask for in my name" eluded me. You see, there's always a clause to every spiritual "law" in the Bible. You try to take things on faith and have a name it and claim it attitude by reciting the verse where Jesus claims we shall receive anything we ask for in his name, but when we don't get it and we ask other christians why, they claim that we are supposed to pray for "His will" to be done, and that obviously what we asked for was not what was best for us. WTF! There's always fine print and disclaimers for all of God's failed promises.

Anonymous: Can you give us your name so that we can address you accordingly? We'd love to have you continue to contribute to the site.

You are in a very sensitive predicament, aren't you? While I wasn't worried about what my parents or friends thought about my deconversion, I was VERY concerned about how I would tell my young children who I had indoctrinated with Christianity from the time they were born, especially since they visit their paternal grandmother every other weekend and she takes them to church. I just approached it very slowly, and began to drop little hints. I began to make them think about certain things, such as "what if it isn't true" or "ya know what I've always wondered..." I began teaching them to think for themselves. My oldest is completely devoid of religious superstition now, my middle isn't sure, and my youngest is still hanging on to Jesus. They are all in different stages and that's okay, because I have been honest with them about where I stand. Now you are in a much tougher position because you are dealing with people who will be DEVESTATED by your coming out. They will be convinced of your eternal punishment should you fail to confess your sin of apostasy and return promptly to the fold. They will pray for your heathen soul for the rest of their lives. I don't know if it's wise or compassionate to come out to them at their age, but I don't know that it's wise for you to continue to live a lie because you obviously honor truth and would be compromising your own integrity by hiding something so important to you.

If I believed in god, I'd pray for you, but all I can do is wish the best for you and hope that you will find a peaceful resolution for YOURSELF, not anyone else. Please keep us posted

Deborah K said...

Hi,
Thanks to you all who are giving me support, words of advice, etc. I was only being anonymous because I couldn't figure out the freaking Google identity!! Anyway I am Deborah, named after the famous judge in the OT! (my sister was named Marilyn, before my parent's conversion. I wonder who she was named for??)

My children are all adults and over the years have grown apart from their upbringing, and I have talked to them about my thoughts and feelings and they are understanding and supportive and helpful.

As far as my Mom (and step-dad)they live very close, but we don't cross paths often. They realize I don't go to church, but not my new state of mind. I am not acting any differently, because I never was a gung-ho Christian, sort of getting by on my parents' coattails, so it's not like I'm really being a hypocrite. Although that doesn't bother me because I really don't want to hurt my mother. In my birthday card to me she said "Please know I'm always there for you" and "Deepest love always". So I don't know if she suspects something or if god is preparing her. ha,ha! She also said "You are so deserving of happiness as you follow the LORD." Sounds a bit conditional???

Anyway I am seeking professional counselling on the right way to inform her - because I don't have the right skills in any situation for conflict and confrontation, so I just want to be prepared and not argue or justify my situation. Just state the facts and stop blabbering!

I appreciate so much hearing your comments and experiences in the same journey that I am taking. I don't feel hostile toward Christianity - just neutral.

Deborah K

PS: I'm newly 55, Roger - but thanks for your well wishes anyway!

Poltergoost (Defender of all Non-Believers) said...

STEVEN BENTLY SAID:

"They've had over 2000 years to cough up some proof, and yet not one bit of evidence has been shown. Beliefs are not facts!"

You Goddamn right! Preach it brother!

However, you still can't convince these idiot christians of that, due to the fact that most christians are stupid, and they don't know how to think for themselves.

Anonymous said...

I would like to respond to this.

I am sure you have heard the saying, "I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is." I take this saying to heart because I wouldn't want to disappoint an all-loving god. I mean, if he really sent his son to die for us, if what he has to say is that important, then we should probably listen.

I am not afraid of death either. In fact before I became saved I often thought of suicide. No one can say for sure exactly what the next life will be like, and if the greatest being to ever exist will meet me when I cross over, why not take the trip now? Then I would know for sure how I was suppose to live, and what was true, and what was not.

However once you cross over you can't come back. And if there really is a God, and The Bible really holds his instructions, then me going against his will, when he has the ability to destroy me, is not a real good idea.

God has a plan for every human being. And when you follow Him and listen to his Word then you will find out what that plan is; and trust me, his plan for you is wonderful! He is an all loving god, and wants you to live a wonderful life. He will take you away when your life is complete, and if you have followed Him to the best of your ability then you are rewarded in heaven. Let me make that clear- Heaven is not the reward, you get rewarded in heaven.

The Bible says that God is pure and he is light. Light cannot abide with darkness. Sin brings darkness. So if you have sin you cannot be with God. A+B=C Water and Oil don't mix, and God can't mix with sin. Soooo

If you are not cleansed by Jesus' blood, you cannot enter into heaven. And where do you go if you do not go to heaven..... yes, hell. It is also a real place, where real torment goes on.

The things is, everyone comes into this world dirty. One, no not one, is righteous. And the only way to get rid of the dirt, the only way to bring light into your life, and thereby make you acceptable to God, is to pray for Jesus to make you clean. You have to admit that you are a sinner (you are dirty) and that Jesus died for you on the cross, then arose 3 days later defeating death, and that without him you won't make it.

Otherwise you can't go into heaven. Not because God isn't loving, not because God wants to punish you, not because God thinks you didn't try hard enough; but because it simply can't be. God is pure and all that is holy, while we are dirty and unrighteous. But because God loves us (you and me) so much, he let his only son be beat and killed for you and me. And if you can accept that, and believe that with all of your heart, then you get to go to heaven and be with God and all of the rest of us that have been made clean.

Rick said...

(yawn) Pascal's Wager .. again

If you believe simply to avoid the consequences of not believing then your faith isn't worth shit.

Do you pray to all the god's in man's history then? Just to make sure you didn't inadvertently piss the real one off? Statistically speaking, hoping you picked the right god to worship simply to "play it safe" is very much not in your favor.

The very fact that there is nothing to point out the "right" belief system makes it pretty obvious that there is no god, or in the very least he doesn't care about being worshiped. The fact that religion is very cultural should clue you in on how man made it is.

You believe because you want to believe and you have chosen your way of belief because either you are used to it(from a lifetime of indoctrination by your culture/family) or it fulfills a basic requirement that you personally like. In either case it is not because you know a truth. (Though you will claim that you do know it which only proves that you are willing to lie to yourself as well as others to support your beliefs)

That you would come here and make an appeal to ignorance ("we just don't know!") and use Pascal's Wager in doing so is quite insulting.

Astreja said...

Anonymous Coward said: "I mean, if he really sent his son to die for us, if what he has to say is that important, then we should probably listen."

I disagree. If a god has to send his kidlet to intercede with us mortals, the original god obviously fucked up big time. I see no reason to take it seriously if it has to go to such outlandish lengths to "forgive" us of something that it, itself, allegedly dumped on humanity.

"And if there really is a God, and The Bible really holds his instructions, then me going against his will, when he has the ability to destroy me, is not a real good idea."

This is why I think the god of the Bible doesn't exist. No real god would write such racist, sexist, homophobic, violently genocidal and just plain stupid trash.

"God has a plan for every human being. And when you follow Him and listen to his Word then you will find out what that plan is; and trust me, his plan for you is wonderful!"

Pardon me while I sit here underwhelmed. This is the same god who, according to Revelations, is planning to use this planet as the setting for a winner-take-all grudge match against his arch-enemy. And who, according to the book of Job, tortured a devout believer upon the advice of the same arch-enemy. Sheesh. "God has a plan" could mean anything from a gazillion dollars to being slowly eaten alive by sentient habanero peppers.

"He is an all loving god..."

Then Hell doesn't exist.

"The Bible says that God is pure and he is light."

The Bible also says that bats are birds, that snakes can talk, and that two of every animal that ever existed can fit on a boat.

"Light cannot abide with darkness. Sin brings darkness."

Channel Ahura-Mazda much?

"And where do you go if you do not go to heaven..... yes, hell. It is also a real place..."

Prove it. And not with the Bible.

"The things is, everyone comes into this world dirty."

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Original Sin is slander against all of humanity. Stop spreading the lie. Now.

"He let his only son be beat and killed for you and me. And if you can accept that, and believe that with all of your heart..."

Not only can I not accept it; I refuse to accept it, because the very concept is fucking immoral. There are no magical qualities inherent in sacrifice. It doesn't matter if the sacrifice is a dove, a sheep, a human, or a god cross-dressing as a human. It does nothing. Get your head out of your ass and get your brain out of the superstitious slime of the ancient past.

Anonymous said...

Whats the fuss?

The original poster pretty well makes it clear she never really believed anyway.

So cheer up! My experience is that people like that do a lot of damgage to the people around them in the church as the years go by.

Now that she is a 55 year old has been, the damage that only younger attractive women can do is out of here grasp, so she might as well let it all hang out.

.:webmaster:. said...

I was going to delete anony's nasty comment, but decided to leave it.

Your comment, anonymous, is illustrative of what Christianity really looks like when played out in the lives of "True Believers™": rude, compassionless, and assinine.

Thanks for the post.

Jean said...

Who says a Christian made that post?

For all we know, YOU did.

Diogenes said...

Actually anony raises a good point. Since I lost my faith, I just can’t get enough sex and drugs of all varieties. I run stop signs, speed, drive intoxicated, beat my wife and my children, rob stores, steal from vagrants . . . I just can’t get enough.

Back to reality: I seldom drink, never hit my kids, have a loving monogamous relationship with my Methodist wife, obey every law I’m aware of (even our fireworks laws), I don’t smoke or do any illegal drugs. Additionally my love for my fellow human has increased immeasurably, as I no long sort people by “us” and “them”.

What’s more I maintained my lack of faith (ability to reason) through three open heart surgeries. Never did I utter a word of prayer. I am without doubt convinced that there is no god.

Anonymous said...

Because any idiot can do an IP check on who makes posts here.

boomSLANG said...

Anonymous directly above me said: Because any idiot can do an IP check on who makes posts here.

Anonymous, that may be true, nonetheless, even if you insist on posting as "anonymous"--whether Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or whatever--can you please at least quote/reference the person you are addressing? That would be terrific. Thanks.

In response to Webmaster's post, Jean chirps: Who says a Christian made that post? For all we know, YOU[Webmaster] did.

Taken from the post in question:

Anonymous: "My experience is that people like that do a lot of damgage to the people around them in the church as the years go by."

Dear Jean,

Usually here on Exchristian.net when people defend the church?... although it's not a 100% certainty, it's a pretty reliable indicator that they are Christian. For instance, we can't say for certain that you are a Christian, can we? No---but I'll bet you are, aren't you? Be honest----not because gawd is watching---but because it's the right thing to do.(I know that's probably a foreign concept, but try)

Bye now.

Diogenes said...

Dearest Anonymous,

Please let this idiot know what his IP address is.

Deborah K said...

Anonymous wrote: Whats the fuss?

The original poster pretty well makes it clear she never really believed anyway.

I am the original poster, and I never said I didn't believe. I said that I was indoctrinated. I was bombasted with guilt-ridden, follow the faith or perish statements all my life. I am questioning how true all this is because it never really made sense to me although I believed and tried so hard all my life to live up to the standards that were expected of me.

Anonymous wrote: So cheer up! My experience is that people like that do a lot of damgage to the people around them in the church as the years go by.

I don't believe I did any damage by trying to fit in. I believe the ones who did the damage were those that are spreading their propoganda around.

Anonymous said: Now that she is a 55 year old has been, the damage that only younger attractive women can do is out of here grasp, so she might as well let it all hang out.

You are so shallow.

Deborah K said...

To Anonymous who gave the plan of salvation (not sure if this loving anonymous is the same as the ugly anonymous) but I've heard that all before, in fact I have memorized it all. But there are still too many holes, too much that is unexplainable and I'm tired of the cliche answer of "Just believe by faith. God is so far above us, we can't understand his ways." But those same people will interpret the Bible to fit their agenda.

freethinker05 said...

anony, "why all the fuss" is when you tell women who are 55 they are has-beens. So, you are also saying that your mother is a has-been also. Hmmmm! p.s. My wife is 47, and if you told her that to her face, she would slap the cowboy hell out of you!

rickyusvi said...

Anonymous Without A Clue parroted: "I am sure you have heard the saying, 'I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.'"

Your are correct, we have heard it. In fact, we're sick of hearing it. I for one find it insulting to my intelligence to be blackmailed with an imaginary threat.

Anonymous regurgitated: "The Bible says that [snip]"

Newsflash! This is an EX-Christian board. That means that we are no longer Christians, which is another way of saying that we don't believe the Bible. If you want us back, you need to start coughing.

Anonymous preached: "If you are [...] won't make it."

Newsflash! This is an ex-Christian board. It means that we used to be Christians, which means that we already know Christian teachings.

Anonymous theodicized: "Otherwise you can't go into heaven. Not because God isn't loving, not because God wants to punish you, not because God thinks you didn't try hard enough; but because it simply can't be. God is pure and all that is holy, while we are dirty and unrighteous. But because God loves us (you and me) so much, he let his only son be beat and killed for you and me. And if you can accept that, and believe that with all of your heart, then you get to go to heaven and be with God and all of the rest of us that have been made clean."

God shows his love by having his son tortured and killed? God is omnipotent, yet "it simply cannot be"? God loves us, yet he'll torture me for all eternity because i'm incapable of believing your fairy tale? If you can accept that, then you're not thinking straight.

rickyusvi said...

Deborah K,

Happy birthday to a "has been," an "is," and a "will be"!

DrJim1940 said...

Happy Birthday, Deborah K., and
welcome to a place where we are here to support each other (with the exception of Anonymous). You have been through a tough religious life the way you were reared, so keep your head about you, keep your head up, and keep smiling. :) Many of us here have "been there and done that."

DrJim1940 said...

A Comment for "Anonymous the Obnoxious One" -- My only regret in making this post is that you will have gotten attention which seems to be the primary reason that you hang around here.

If you would leave here and spend your time out in the world "witnessing" to "sinners" who are potential converts to your simplistic and dogmatic belief system, then everyone would be much happier. "God" would be happier for he surely knows that there are no potential converts on this site. The "unsaved" would be happier if they hear the "word" and get saved so that they can be with you in heaven (it would be Hell for me to have to spend eternity around you). And I am certain that "WE" would be happy to be rid of you. So why don't you go do god's work where it is needed.

With that said, I just want to focus on one fundamental issue which most any first-year logic student would recognize. You say so often, "The Bible says...." When I lived in New Orleans, LA, there was a huge Baptist church named Midcity Baptist Church. In front of the church was a gigantic neon sign in the shape of an open book. On the sign, the large neon
words read: "The Bible Said It;
I Believe It; That Settles It." I suppose a comparable sign could be erected outside a Moslem mosque reading: "The Koran Said It; I Believe It; That Settles It." A sign outside a Hindu temple could read: "The Upanishads Said It; I Believe It; That Settles It." One could conceive of a sign outside of a Mormon house of worship reading: "Joseph Smith Said It; I Believe It; That Settle It." You get the picture. Use your imagination to conjure up comparable signs outside: a Communist meeting hall, a Hindu shrine, etc.,etc.

You may wonder: "What's the point?"
Well, I'm glad you asked. I quote you:

"God has a plan for every human being. And when you follow Him and listen to his Word then you will find out what that plan is...." (and there are comparable quotes from you in other posts you have made here).

Question: How do you know what God's "Word" is? Let us stick to your favorite source: The Bible. "The Bible says...."
Yes, the Bible says. So what? How do you, I, or anyone know that The Bible is God's Word? Ah ha! I know the answer to that: The Bible says that it is God's Word. So here is the way it goes: The source of God's Word is The Bible, and The Bible is God's Word because in The Bible it claims to be God's Word.
This clearly begs the question.

It is one of the purest examples of circular reasoning I have ever seen, and any student of logic would know that "circular reasoning" gets one nowhere. Here is a splendid example from a logic text (with some added interpolations):

Suppose you claim "God exists!"
I ask: "How do you know?"
You say: "The Bible says so."
I ask: "But how do you know that what the Bible says is true?"
You say: "Because the Bible is the Word of God."

********************************

Suppose I claim: "There is but one god and Allah is his name."
You ask: "But how do you know?"
I say: "Because the Koran says so."
You ask: "But how do you know that what the Koran says is true?"
I say: "Because the Koran is the word of Allah."

I rest my case.

Deborah K said...

Thanks DrJim. Having so recently come out of the closet, so to say, I'm encouraged to hear of others who are expressing the same questions I have had for years. Sounds like I'm a dumb blonde (or blind) for following this reasoning. But it has been so ingrained in me that it is difficult not to think that way. Are there any support groups in the Atlanta area?

Rip said...

The ultimate goal in life is happiness. Whatever decision you make ask yourself, "does this contribute to or take away from my happiness." It might help you in your journey.
Maybe we will cross paths on the road to happiness!

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