The Infinite Psychopath
Sent in by Chris A
Although the Biblical concept of the human experience had always seemed somewhat unfair, my doubts really began with the issue of homosexuality; specifically, why did the Christian god despise it so much?
"Why," I asked myself, "Would God kill everyone in those cities for following the urges that He created them with in the first place?" It was shortly thereafter that I realized that this irrational act on god's part was just a microcosm of an even greater injustice: "Wait..." I thought, "If God is all-powerful, why must He persist in creating sinners instead of saints? And why must He then damn people for following the sinful natures that He gives them?"
You'd think, wouldn't you, that such impious ruminations would herald a formal conversion to atheism?
You would, however, be mistaken. Rather than having the courage and mental fortitude to pursue my inquisitions, I resolved to deal with my growing uncertainties by becoming profoundly religious. For me, this entailed having me very Southern Baptist Grandmother read the Bible at me, occasionally stopping to relay her interpretations of the verses, regale me with accounts of times she'd "spoken" with god, and break into outbursts of incoherent gibberish ("tongues"). These sermons punctuated the end of each day for me, the remainder of the evening to be spent either in miserable sorrow at the prospect of a "good, Christian life", in mind-numbing fear of hell, or in tearful frustration when my prayers failed to bring forth any affirmation from god.
Of course, I could never keep this up long enough for a formal baptism to be arranged; I would have gone certifiably insane from fear and grief within the year. I started scouring the Internet for arguments against religion as soon as I could work up the nerve, and once I found them, I never looked back. I still have moments of doubt, since I can't scientifically prove there isn't an Infinite Psychopath patiently waiting to torture me for all eternity because I refuse to wallow and grovel like a worm before him... Then again, I also can't scientifically disprove Allah, Odin, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, so there's really no hedging bets, I guess...
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Although the Biblical concept of the human experience had always seemed somewhat unfair, my doubts really began with the issue of homosexuality; specifically, why did the Christian god despise it so much?
"Why," I asked myself, "Would God kill everyone in those cities for following the urges that He created them with in the first place?" It was shortly thereafter that I realized that this irrational act on god's part was just a microcosm of an even greater injustice: "Wait..." I thought, "If God is all-powerful, why must He persist in creating sinners instead of saints? And why must He then damn people for following the sinful natures that He gives them?"
You'd think, wouldn't you, that such impious ruminations would herald a formal conversion to atheism?
You would, however, be mistaken. Rather than having the courage and mental fortitude to pursue my inquisitions, I resolved to deal with my growing uncertainties by becoming profoundly religious. For me, this entailed having me very Southern Baptist Grandmother read the Bible at me, occasionally stopping to relay her interpretations of the verses, regale me with accounts of times she'd "spoken" with god, and break into outbursts of incoherent gibberish ("tongues"). These sermons punctuated the end of each day for me, the remainder of the evening to be spent either in miserable sorrow at the prospect of a "good, Christian life", in mind-numbing fear of hell, or in tearful frustration when my prayers failed to bring forth any affirmation from god.
Of course, I could never keep this up long enough for a formal baptism to be arranged; I would have gone certifiably insane from fear and grief within the year. I started scouring the Internet for arguments against religion as soon as I could work up the nerve, and once I found them, I never looked back. I still have moments of doubt, since I can't scientifically prove there isn't an Infinite Psychopath patiently waiting to torture me for all eternity because I refuse to wallow and grovel like a worm before him... Then again, I also can't scientifically disprove Allah, Odin, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, so there's really no hedging bets, I guess...
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Comments
Of course, anyone can join God's side at any time...even with a lousy record or "transcipt" so to speak; human organizations aren't so merciful...even if you DO grovel.
One question, anonymous: Are you as fucked up as you want to be?
Chris A: great account. My conversion also had a great deal to do with the idea of God punishing people for things that didn't make any sense, especially those things that the church makes a big deal out of but their own "timeless" book was silent on.
Polygamy was an issue for me. I'm not polygamous, but the concept of one man-one woman for life didn't make sense to me, and didn't hold up in the actual practice of the church either. All I could see were the human biases and ideals of various ages influencing the interpretation of some vague writings in the book that would mean one thing in one century and something else again later. Could something with that much variance really be used as the statutory basis for committing people to hell? The laziest public defender could tear that up.
God is imaginary, unjust or most probably both.
Trolls can now chime in an pick up the recitation of lame verses where Chris's well intended but deluded grandmother left off.
How about you? You sound pretty fucked up. Are you as fucked up as you want to be?
On the subject of homosexuality, and the OT law in general: these things were put together by an unwashed gang of savages and barbarians. They mean nothing to a civilized mind.
Paul said that the law is our schoolmaster to lead us to christ. Right. Do you remember that the penalty for raping a slave was lower that the penalty for raping a free woman? Do you remember that it was legal to beat your slaves to death? I would not go kicking and screaming to any sort of christ that paul worshipped.
If we read carefully the OT stories--what I call the "war stories"--we see that the concept of the "chosen people" is a gag. I began to laugh when I was able to stop shuddering. To borrow what is becoming a common epithet around here, anyone who believes that is really fucked up.
And bluto.........I do not doubt for a moment that you come from a fucked up family. Atheism is a high calling; the highest. We cannot help it if your wierd relatives have failed to live up to that calling.
And by the way, I was born into a church where you went to hell for smoking, cursing, jerking off and going to movies. How fucked up is that?
Also, in the paragraph that begins "paul said"......"that" should read "than". Thanx.
Chris A., to Ryan & Joe: Nice to meet someone who can relate to my reasons for leaving the faith. Although, I must admit that my atheism has never been very strong. Just recently, for example, I decided to give the arguments for Christianity some thought, and now I'm worried that maybe there is something to the "God wants us to have faith" defense. I can't stop wondering if the Christians are right about it: that there is an abundance of evidence for god's existance and the truth of Christianity, but that I can't see or understand either because I don't really want to believe in god. Your thoughts on the subject?
So, Bluto, I take it that growing up, your primary caregivers didn't believe in Allah, Marduk, Venus, Odin, and Buddha, correct? Assuming they did not(if as you say, they were "Atheist")..my question is then, do you think the denial of the above-mentioned gods is what "f%cked up" your family? In other words, what specific idea was missing in your up-bringing that leads you to believe that there is a direct correlation between being raised "f%cked up", and denying gods? 'Follow the question so far? Repeat: What ideas, specifically, were missing that you couldn't have gotten from caregivers who adhered to, literally, ANY religious philosophy?...take Buddhism, for example.
If you cannot provide adaquate answers to these questions, then your problem isn't with "Atheism"---it's with people who deny your specific religious philosophy. Now, if you can illustrate to the class how your religious philosophy has a monopoly on "ethics", and/or "Truth"...we're listening. Otherwise, please don't make Atheism your scape-goat, k?
Bye now.
Dear Chris,
I implore you to please reevaluate the "God wants us to have faith" axiom. Remember, "Hell" awaits those who do not accept the Christian biblegod on "faith".
Now honestly, Chris, does that really sound like biblegod "wants" you to have "faith"?..or does it sound more like you are indirectly being forced to have "faith"..i.e..lest you be incinerated for eternity?
Quite frankly, it is that very concept that led me away from the "faith", in conjunction with actually reading the bible for myself.
In any event, think rationally, and best of luck to you.
Boom'
Keep in mind the idea of "point of view". If you present an argument for something (say xtianity) and you receive a hailstorm of criticism, it is more or less likely for you to come up with a defense that has no answer (e.g. 'that is the mystery of God', 'His ways are not our ways', etc). Also note how vague the arguments are. In my experience, the vagueness of the argument generally points to lack of evidence. Now, I don't know about you, but I looked at all the arguments, pro and con, regarding xtianity, and the pro arguments have no substance -- they are all vague and rely on the implicit fear of 'hellfire and brimstone'. The con arguments are generally logically sound, and although some folks take things in a direction I don't choose to go, there is now no doubt whatsoever that any of the revealed religions are anything but wish fulfillment, especially with regard to the human need for 'fair play' and our obvious fear of death. Just my 2 cents.
To respond to your last post: Lots of people believe in a creator; intelligent design and all that sort of thing. But to assert the possibility of a creation is as far as we can go. There is no proof at all that this deity is indeed the deity of our favorite religion. We cannot say that this deity is the jew god, or the muslim god, or any other god. If you profess belief in a creation, the best you could hope for is deism.
From creation, the ID people somehow think that their particular cult is somehow also established: that the jews were god's chosen; that the law was given by god; that jesus was foretold in prophecy; that jesus was the son of god; that jesus had to die in a Roman execution before his father could forgive the smallest of our misdemeanors. AND--here comes the big one--if we fail to believe all this, god will bake us in his hell forever.
Chris, I do not know if some god is out there--the existence of a god is a matter of the most profound indifference. If some god made me, then he made me the way I am, and he likes it that way. Only a low-life comic could believe that this god wants to punish us.What did we ever do to piss off god?
My position, for the sake of convenience, is atheism, but I get along with Unitarians; deists; wiccans; Satanists, and anyone who thinks for himself and makes his own decisions. If anyone can tell me what is more precious than freedom, I am ready to listen.
in creating sinners instead of
saints. The Fundamentalists will
tell you God doesn't create sinners; because of the "original
sin" in the Garden of Eden, all
mankind, fron the moment each baby
is born, is condemned and heading for hell. The same logic, or lack
thereof, that would say if my
Great-Great Grandfather was hanged
as a horse thief, I"m going to be
hanged for it too, because I'm just
as guilty as he was.
Say, where did Bluto/Goldie go?
But, seriously, you considered all the possible arguments for Christianity? Even the old "Aetheists\Pagans\Other Christian Denominations don't believe because they don't want to believe" chestnut?
Yes, yes, homosexuality! As an offense, it ranks right up there with "working on the Sabbath", which interestingly, is higher on biblegod's list of "no-no's" than "thou shalt not kill"..i.e.."murder". Biblegod has funny priorities, doesn't he? lol!
concerning whether Hitler was gay;
According to William Shirer and other WWII historians, in his younger days Hitler was madly in love with a niece, Geli Rabaul.
When she spurned him, he was furious. She was later said to have committed suicide, although
some speculate he may have had her
murdered.
Have you both not got something better to do, like
clean up the sunday school room in your local church? Maybe your pastor needs some help with his sexual urges.
There really is nothing here for you.
Example: in his Case for Faith, Strobel thinks he has answered the charge of god's cruelty and bloodthirst in the OT; whole ethnic groups slaughtered. He says that god was really being merciful, because the decendants of these idolators would all have gone to hell. He prevented the damned from being born.
See the simple-minded logic in this? Who the hell said that hell exists, and that god wants to put people there? Who the helll said that god hates people just because they worship some other god? Chris, we call this "circularity", using as proof that which needs to be proven in the first place.
About this business of "not wanting to believe". It is not a matter of wanting to or not wanting to. It is a matter of seeing no reason to believe. I am not a hindu--I see no reason to be a hindu. I do not worship my ancestors--I see no reason to worship my ancestors. If someone tries to tell me that I am not a xian just because I do not want to be a xian, my answer would be no, I am not a xian because I see no reason to be a xian. The next part of my response to that person would be that you do not want to be an atheist because you are stubbornly hanging on to your superstition that should have died out with the fucking dark ages.
Chris, I have to run; I have a class in 20 minutes. Bye
And by the way, I was born into a church where you went to hell for smoking, cursing, jerking off and going to movies. How fucked up is that?
Hey, me too! I was Seventh-day Adventist, though...the downside was that we could add eating pork and having fun on Saturday to the list of things we would fry for. The upside, is that SDA's don't fry for all eternity...we only fry until we burn up, and then we simply don't exist (though some have postulated that really bad people take longer to fry for some reason).
Chris A. - The thing that stops me from buying the 'faith' thing is that it is just too convenient an answer, isn't it? It's a catchall so that it doesn't matter WHAT logic EVER proves, faith trumps it, because by it's nature it is 'beyond' proof. So with that kind of argument, then, where do I draw the line? Each denomination and religion draws it in different places and expects me to 'just have faith' when the lines don't make sense. Mostly, I'm expected to toe the line of the denomination I was brought up in.
Good luck in your search, Chris...just don't be afraid to look at the issue from both sides. If you read Lee Strobel or Josh McDowell, for example, then go and google "debunking strobel" or something to see what the other side has to say. Then you can see both sides, and more importantly, see what the other side is NOT saying.
Truly,
Jamie.
He checked in directly to hell.
I'm not sure how Hitler suddenly became the topic of discussion, but let me point out that my use of the adjective "good" was ironic. It's typical of Xians though that Anony picked up on the sin of suicide--excuse me, the "sin" of suicide-- and ignored the wholesale murder and destruction for which hitler was responsible. Who the hell has priorities like that?
Thanks.
He checked in directly to hell.
Nope, not necessarily. For all anyone knows, he could've "repented" seconds before his last breath, thus, gaining entrance into heaven, where, once there, he could worship his favorite Savior in everlasting bliss, side-by-side, with the rest of his brethren. Meanwhile, the Jews get double-roasted because they weren't Catholic. Showing, once again, the idiocy and divisiveness of Christianity. Sniff, sniff...
'Got anything better?
Then this article made it clear that what we have is a demographically homogenous group offering self referential congratulationls to each other:http://atheismsucks.blogspot.com/2007/08/idiots-guide-to-new-atheism.html
Nice strawman of Atheism, which also wasn't really anything you just described it as.
You're overly cynical about this aren't you? You're not one to just let live...
These "cookie cutter expriences" actually reinforce the validity of the awakening.
All these people have experienced the same thing, coming to the same realisations.
Part of the human experience is to share, which is especially satisfying when there are similarities in that experience.
It's called testimony.
I think you just don't like that we're free from people like you. You still want to hang around and have some influence.
It's not wanted - or needed.
Something that doesn't exist wants you to have the faith that you need in order to believe that it exists? That's quite circular. The Christians appeal to assertion: God exists because i believe that he exists or because somebody told me he exists. That didn't work with Santa Claus; why should it work with Yahweh?
Chris A. wrote: I can't stop wondering if the Christians are right about it: that there is an abundance of evidence for god's existance and the truth of Christianity, but that I can't see or understand either because I don't really want to believe in god. Your thoughts on the subject?"
I would say that they "see" the evidence because they want to believe in God. Human psychology is like that. But wanting something doesn't make it so. None of the so-called "evidence" that Xians put forward stands up to scrutiny. Some of the "evidence" amounts to bad logic; all arguments for God's existence fall into this category. Some of it is irrelevant, such as the observations of Pliny and others that Xians existed. Some is fraudulent, such as the Testimonium Flavianum forgery in Josephus's Jewish Antiquities. But most of the "evidence" is just plain imaginary. With Xianity's emphasis on authority, people believe that evidence exists simply because the apologists say it does. Apologists assert with confidence that Jesus resurrection is well testified, that no archaeological finding has ever contradicted the bible, and that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. Or "God wants us to have faith." Those are not evidences; those are imaginary.
If there were any real evidence, Xians wouldn't have to rely on faith so much. As Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Is there a more blatant appeal to wishful thinking? (In fairness to the author of Hebrews, that's probably a bad translation from the original Greek.)
The Xians who accuse us of not wanting to believe are so locked up in their own world view that they are incapable of accepting that other people really do see things differently. I can't count how many times i've seen Xians assert on the Internet that atheists really believe, deep down, in Jesus. It's really a patronizing insult. When someone tells you what you believe, you call them on it; ask them, "How the hell do you know?"
By all means, take another look at the Xian arguments. See how spurious they are.
I now wish to use the word in its original meaning. xianity sucks. jesus sucks. The holy ghost sucks. The bible sucks. Your religion sucks. And you suck. So get on your knees where you belong and go to it. I just had a shower.
And about the cookie cutter: xianity is the most cruel and vicious cookie cutter ever devised by crazed minds.Your religion--whatever it is--reduces us to less than children, mocking our individuality and damning any attempt to think like grown men. It is not a wonder, then, that we sound alike. WE ARE ALIKE. We did not think that we could be saved unless we all had the wits of sheep. We are all doing our damndest to recover that which was taken from us. It may take awhile, but we have the balls to try.
By the way, do you spit or swallow?
To suck was to be humiliated. It was a coup to get a girl to suck you; you boasted about it; you dominated the slut; she was yours. For a man to suck was far far worse; queers did that; fags; perverts who were less than men and couldn't get a woman.
Glad to have instructed you. Never fail to ask my advice.
I can't stop wondering if the Christians are right about it: that there is an abundance of evidence for god's existance and the truth of Christianity, but that I can't see or understand either because I don't really want to believe in god.
Chris
That is a ploy to make you feel guilty about not "seeing" the evidence. In other words, they are trying to convince you that the problem is with you rather than the evidence.
Item: "Atheism sucks"
Yes, Atheism "sucks", but I'll bet it's perfectly "cool" to deny Allah, Quetzacoatl, Mithra, Osiris, Venus, Marduk..and about a gazillion other "gods", isn't it dickweed?(rhetorical)
The point for "Atheism sucks", once again, is that their problem is NOT with Atheism; it's with people who deny THEIR "god", specifically....in this case, their precious invisible friend, jebus.
Hello? If you're there---your little anti-Atheism campaign is totally misleading and misguided, simply because if you weren't bumping heads with Atheists, you'd be bumping heads with other Theists. Technically speaking, to be "anti-Atheist", you would accept the belief in the existence of ALL gods. The antithesis of denying "all" gods, is accepting "all" gods. And lordy knows, biblegod doesn't stand for that---he's "jealous"! And do I even need to point out that jealousy stems from insecurity? Imagine---the creator of the entire Universe....insecure?
Here's a little gem taken from the blog of people who deny all gods but one....
"We don't have a word for people who don't believe in leprechauns or for people who don't believe in unicorns. But we have a word for all those people throughout history and in different cultures who don't believe in God."
Um, we don't have words for people who don't believe in "leprechauns" and "unicorns"... because WE DON'T HAVE PEOPLE GOING AROUND INSISTING THAT THEY EXIST. Duh? Let me put it another way---we wouldn't need air-freshener if shit didn't stink, would we?
AS, continues...... different atheist cultures often have very different visions of life, worldviews, or philosophies.
No shit, Sherlock.....driving home the point, once again, that Atheism is NOT a "one-size-fits-all" doctrine; it's adherents are pro-individual, where as, in Theism, it's adherents are ANTI-individual. Everything, including the "self", is sacrificed for the respective deity. Now who's sucking who?
BS.
Many are elitist totalitarians.
I see no superiority to theists whatsover.
Who ya kidding?
Besides yourself?
Oh, and I hope no one thinks I am here trying to you or witness to you.
You are all assholes who know what you are doing.
You see, I simple despise you all.
Very simple really, and I get my jollies telling you.
When reading these debates I feel sorry for those still trapped in the "faith". And you are all absolutely right about the "Faith or Fire" thing. That is the very concept of christianity and the very thing that got me to wake up.
It's like if someone has a child and loves them so much that they will burn that child in eternal hell fire if they don't obey certain rules.
Besides, it's EASY to see the political aspect of the "Law". They very origin of the jews and thus christians is rooted in the need for freedom and eventually power.
Peace
You are half-right: we are elitists. You are damned right we are. And I find your attempt at a masculine display of anger to be hilarious.
Excellent! We feed off your pain and anger. You are a perfect example of the psychological damage resulting from religiosity. Every time you come here with your hate and psychopathic ranting, you prove the point. In fact, you are doing more to help create more atheists than your "simple" deranged mind could comprehend. Keep up the good work!
Golditrol: You see, I [simply] despise you all.
And I presume "all" to mean, every person---whether Athiest, Pantheist, Deist, or even Theist---who doesn't believe in "Yahweh".
Golditrol: .... and I get my jollies telling you.
And I get mine knowing that the more posts like yours, the brighter the light becomes---the light that's slowly, but surely, exposing superstitious legend...e.g.."religion", for what it really is---caca de` toro.
Have wONDerful day!
What is this strawman argument of which you speak? Or are you going to say that because I don't know, you're not going to tell me?
"You are all assholes..."
"You see, I simple despise you all."
"...I get my jollies telling you."
Let's see, you sart with name calling, tell us you hate us and clearly state how much you enjoy telling us about your hatred.
Yessur, we got us a bonnifidie edumacated xtian here folks! Best we walk softly around dis one or he's jes lible to open a big ass can o'whoop-ass of us po' heathens!
Really Goldstein, people of your caring, loving nature and intellectual capacity make my day when you post here. Come back real soon. NOT!
...Which, of course, is an attitude propogated by religionists who think that sex is somehow inherently bad, and especially so if it is not a man and a woman in the missionary position...
That said, time for some bad news.
Even now, two or three years after I "officially" lost my faith, part of me is still frightened by threatenings of hellfire, still quailed by accusations of rebellion against god's revealed truth... Especially the idea that the "Holy Spirit" works at the heart of every sinner to get them to accept the gospel, and that by ignoring this tugging, all non-Christians willingly damn themselves, whether they admit it or not.
...Now, this could easily have been my fear and doubt getting the better of me, but... Yesterday evening that idea that I had ignored the Holy Spirit was running through my mind, and instead of logically questioning it or pushing it out of my head like I usually do, I dwelt on it for a minute, wanting to see if there might be any reason and justice in the concept... And, suddenly, I just felt very strongly that the Bible was true, had been true all along, and that in asking all the questions I asked, I was hust looking for an excuse to reject the "Truth"...
Now, to be certain, personal experiences that could easily be the result of strong emotions are not my idea of a "proof", of any sort...
All the same, the experience did (and still does) unsettle me, and I have to ask: has anyon here experienced anything similar while trying to deconvert?
Think about Allah…
All your life you’ve denied him …
And he’s mad…
His wrath is real…
Real as Yahweh’s….
Just except it…
There’s no way around it…
You’re hell bound.
Why? Why does it seems that the everyday, ordinary, decent people are the ones most concerned about going to hell and the cock-sucking, hypocritical pricks believe that the angels in heaven are this very minute dusting off chairs and setting up seating plaques with their names on it?
Peace
Hrm. Dunno. You think maybe god's sending the Blessed Spook to pester the wrong sinners?
You're welcome.
Chris A. wrote: "Even now, two or three years after I 'officially' lost my faith, part of me is still frightened by threatenings of hellfire, still quailed by accusations of rebellion against god's revealed truth... Especially the idea that the 'Holy Spirit' works at the heart of every sinner to get them to accept the gospel, and that by ignoring this tugging, all non-Christians willingly damn themselves, whether they admit it or not."
I never felt any such tugging. I did spend more than a decade trying to discern the Holy Spook in my soul. Although i had fears that i would lapse as a Xian, the notion that the faith is totally bogus was not one i took seriously. I saw that other churchgoers had the Spirit, and i wanted some of it.
Chris A. wrote: "...Now, this could easily have been my fear and doubt getting the better of me, but... Yesterday evening that idea that I had ignored the Holy Spirit was running through my mind, and instead of logically questioning it or pushing it out of my head like I usually do, I dwelt on it for a minute, wanting to see if there might be any reason and justice in the concept... And, suddenly, I just felt very strongly that the Bible was true, had been true all along, and that in asking all the questions I asked, I was hust looking for an excuse to reject the 'Truth'..."
Christianity has been imprinted on your brain, and will stay there like the tenant from hell. The human brain is not wired to shake things off; such a brain would have gotten your ancestors eaten by lions before puberty.
Modern science is showing us the real world at a breakneck, accelerating pace, yet evolution remains as glacially slow as it always has been. You are a 21st century human in an ape-man's body. You have the uniquely human ability to outthink your instincts and emotions, but, as with the lions, you cannot outrun them.
Chris A. wrote: "Now, to be certain, personal experiences that could easily be the result of strong emotions are not my idea of a 'proof', of any sort..."
This is exactly what i mean by outthinking your emotions! You know that feelings are fallible. Now, if you can see your emotions for what they are, no more and no less, they need not rule your reasoning.
Chris A. wrote: "All the same, the experience did (and still does) unsettle me, and I have to ask: has anyon here experienced anything similar while trying to deconvert?"
Yes, with the qualifier that i didn't try to deconvert. I tried to find evidence for Xianity, and deconversion was the fallout. I don't think that any believing Xian tries to deconvert; that would be madness, given the doctrine of hell. I suppose Pascal's Wager is built into Xianity. I was finding it increasingly difficult to believe, but always in the back of my mind was, "If i take that final step, i'll be putting my soul on the line."
Every so often, a disquieting "What if it's true?" does cross my mind, but i just have to recall the mountains of positive evidence against Xianity, and the feeling doesn't stand a chance.
You say part of you still fears eternal hellfire--
I can sympathize, it took me a few years to find confidence following my emancipation. Keep thinking, and keep reading. It will get easier. I would suggest a few books to help; "The born-again skeptics guide to the Bible" by Ruth Hurmence Green and "Ken's guide to the Bible," by Ken Smith. Both are available through Amazon. Ruth's book is the best for pointing out how the Biblical God is most unbelievable, and even if such a god existed, he would not be worthy of anything but our contempt.
Also, regarding the subject of homosexuality; if one were to look at the subject in historical context (which Christians always frown upon) we would see a practical reason for denouncing such practices. When you are a nomadic tribe, frequently at war with all your neighbors and mortality rates are high for children and adults alike, any action that does not deliberately bring about new members to the tribe, i.e. more babies, is inherently counter productive to the tribe's survival.
Of course, there is no longer any risk of extinction as a result of too few babies, so it is time to let that one go.
Not trying to be an apologist for any religion, I just think that argument puts a certain slant on things. Everything in the Bible should be explained as how ancient, primitive people came up with the crap that we are stuck with today.
I've never had that much confidence in myself, or my atheism, and I just don't trust myself to accurately weight the arguments for atheism vs. religion...
And, I've got to wonder how all of you can be so assured that Christianity is almost certainly bullshit when the apologists always have some excuse or answer to any objection you might raise...
...I don't know. Maybe I'll never find any peace of mind...
I've never had that much confidence in myself, or my atheism, and I just don't trust myself to accurately weight the arguments for atheism vs. religion...
And, I've got to wonder how all of you can be so assured that Christianity is almost certainly bullshit when the apologists always have some excuse or answer to any objection you might raise...
...I don't know. Maybe I'll never find any peace of mind...
First, ya gotta recognize the stupid or more so the fallacy or logical fallacy within a statement or argument. This takes practice. I’m not good at it, either.
Then you need snappy answers. This takes study.
This website has been (pardon) a godsend. It is the greatest place to cut one’s atheist’s teeth on. There are great many studied folks here. It’s awesome to watch as the Jims, Boom, the Webmaster, and D8 tag team a believer.
Other snappy answers places: flamewarrior.com and godlessbastard.com. If you haven’t already, read David Mills’ “Atheist Universe.” Another author to try is Sam Harris. His two books are short and crisp.
“The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation,” by Matt Ridley is also a good book to start with.
Don’t know if this was helpful.
Shannon
And, I've got to wonder how all of you can be so assured that Christianity is almost certainly bullshit when the apologists always have some excuse or answer to any objection you might raise...
Chris, its easy: forget the apologetics, just be as objective as you can and look at the evidence, which basically consists of a collection of ancient texts and a lot of wishful thinking.
That's part of it, right there. Because they can explain everything by pulling an ad hoc excuse out of their distal orifice, they really explain nothing.
In order for any hypothesis to say something useful, there must be some way to distinguish whether it is true or false. This implies that there must be a conceivable world in which the hypothesis is false; IOW, the hypothesis must be falsifiable in principle. Because the apologists have made up their minds, no facts are allowed to confuse them.