My doomed fate to hell
Sent in by Marie
I don't know how to summarize my story. I was raised Lutheran, and then moved into being a Baptist. I went to a Lutheran private school for several years of grade school, and then went to a private Lutheran High school for the entire 4 years.
The first time I started having doubts about my faith can be pinned on the first religion class I had of my freshman year. The teacher thought he would be really clever and came in talking like a neo-paganist, talking about how we can worship the trees, and don't take the Bible too literally. He was messing with our minds to, I suppose, open our minds and prepare us for the future. Someone I had trusted had exposed to me ideas that weren't Christian. From that point on, I struggled between labeling myself a Christian and an atheist.
All of my friends were greatly concerned for me, and I became a source of a lot of drama. Everyone wanted to save my soul. I was so frustrated and cried at night about my doomed fate to hell. I had my ups and downs throughout high school, Christian-status speaking, and converted back at one point when I saw a giant hand knocking on a door. I felt that was God.
My senior year I started getting rocky again. I decided I wanted to work at an orphanage in Mexico after graduating. But just then my sister returned from her trip to India with Youth With a Mission (YWAM). I noticed she had changed so much for the positive and decided I wanted that. So I went to a YWAM school in Mexico after I graduated.
I don't even want to go into the details of how they attempted to brainwash us and make us will-less creatures submitted to their authority. But the whole time I tried SOOOO hard to believe everything. I felt like I had to get this Christianity thing. I felt only by being a full-time missionary could I maintain my status with Christ. The school, in the end, left me in a spiritual place where I was happy.
So I decided to come back after 6 months to work at the school. But shortly before I left, I found myself in another bought of atheistic thoughts. I decided to go anyways. I gradually told the director of the school where I was spiritually and asked him if he wanted to send me home. He said no and placed me as a group leader for students and an outreach leader for a 3 month trip. This time on staff was TORTURE. I tried so hard to believe it all. But at the same time, my intellect wouldn't let me. I became so emotional about it all.
During the outreach, I revealed to the students that I wasn't Christian right now. I was so embarrassed and felt pressured. At one point, I was overcome with emotion and spirituality and found myself converting back to Christianity and crying like a maniac.
I left the school, returned to the US and found myself committing to work in a starter school in Mexicali. I only joined because the guy who asked me to come, I had a huge crush on. I worked there, and found myself committing to go under training at the original school I worked at to eventually commit 2 years to this new base in Mexicali. I didn't have any spiritual problems at that time, and felt peaceful (looking back though, I was a nut).
At the end of the training, I was to return to Mexicali. However, I found that my reason for being at the base, this guy, was now dating a chick and I wasn't getting any, even platonic, attention. I become depressed and realized the errors of my motives of coming back to the school this year. I realized I had to leave and get my motives in check.
I left the school. I got on a bus in Mexicali and drove all the way to Minnesota, giving myself 48 hours to ponder the last 2 years of my evangelical living.
I immediately settled into depression for the next 2 years, dealing with what happened in Mexico, and what has happened my entire life with wanting to be Christian, but having such a hard time.
I have finally found myself in a much more comfortable position, spiritually. I consider myself something in between a Unitarian or a Quaker, but I don't associate with any religious organization. I am now just trying to come to grips with what really happened in Mexico and throughout my life, since now I am finally confident in the custom faith I have created for myself.
Its a really painful issue to have to consider all that I have chosen to believe and do for the sake of avoiding hell in these last years. Whenever I start to think about my spiritual past, I feel ill to my stomach and find myself curled up in the fetal position. It is really hard for me to deal with. I feel extremely bitter towards the religion (but strangely enough, not the God) and everyone else who has excommunicated me because of my choice to trust myself over anyone else.
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I don't know how to summarize my story. I was raised Lutheran, and then moved into being a Baptist. I went to a Lutheran private school for several years of grade school, and then went to a private Lutheran High school for the entire 4 years.
The first time I started having doubts about my faith can be pinned on the first religion class I had of my freshman year. The teacher thought he would be really clever and came in talking like a neo-paganist, talking about how we can worship the trees, and don't take the Bible too literally. He was messing with our minds to, I suppose, open our minds and prepare us for the future. Someone I had trusted had exposed to me ideas that weren't Christian. From that point on, I struggled between labeling myself a Christian and an atheist.
All of my friends were greatly concerned for me, and I became a source of a lot of drama. Everyone wanted to save my soul. I was so frustrated and cried at night about my doomed fate to hell. I had my ups and downs throughout high school, Christian-status speaking, and converted back at one point when I saw a giant hand knocking on a door. I felt that was God.
My senior year I started getting rocky again. I decided I wanted to work at an orphanage in Mexico after graduating. But just then my sister returned from her trip to India with Youth With a Mission (YWAM). I noticed she had changed so much for the positive and decided I wanted that. So I went to a YWAM school in Mexico after I graduated.
I don't even want to go into the details of how they attempted to brainwash us and make us will-less creatures submitted to their authority. But the whole time I tried SOOOO hard to believe everything. I felt like I had to get this Christianity thing. I felt only by being a full-time missionary could I maintain my status with Christ. The school, in the end, left me in a spiritual place where I was happy.
So I decided to come back after 6 months to work at the school. But shortly before I left, I found myself in another bought of atheistic thoughts. I decided to go anyways. I gradually told the director of the school where I was spiritually and asked him if he wanted to send me home. He said no and placed me as a group leader for students and an outreach leader for a 3 month trip. This time on staff was TORTURE. I tried so hard to believe it all. But at the same time, my intellect wouldn't let me. I became so emotional about it all.
During the outreach, I revealed to the students that I wasn't Christian right now. I was so embarrassed and felt pressured. At one point, I was overcome with emotion and spirituality and found myself converting back to Christianity and crying like a maniac.
I left the school, returned to the US and found myself committing to work in a starter school in Mexicali. I only joined because the guy who asked me to come, I had a huge crush on. I worked there, and found myself committing to go under training at the original school I worked at to eventually commit 2 years to this new base in Mexicali. I didn't have any spiritual problems at that time, and felt peaceful (looking back though, I was a nut).
At the end of the training, I was to return to Mexicali. However, I found that my reason for being at the base, this guy, was now dating a chick and I wasn't getting any, even platonic, attention. I become depressed and realized the errors of my motives of coming back to the school this year. I realized I had to leave and get my motives in check.
I left the school. I got on a bus in Mexicali and drove all the way to Minnesota, giving myself 48 hours to ponder the last 2 years of my evangelical living.
I immediately settled into depression for the next 2 years, dealing with what happened in Mexico, and what has happened my entire life with wanting to be Christian, but having such a hard time.
I have finally found myself in a much more comfortable position, spiritually. I consider myself something in between a Unitarian or a Quaker, but I don't associate with any religious organization. I am now just trying to come to grips with what really happened in Mexico and throughout my life, since now I am finally confident in the custom faith I have created for myself.
Its a really painful issue to have to consider all that I have chosen to believe and do for the sake of avoiding hell in these last years. Whenever I start to think about my spiritual past, I feel ill to my stomach and find myself curled up in the fetal position. It is really hard for me to deal with. I feel extremely bitter towards the religion (but strangely enough, not the God) and everyone else who has excommunicated me because of my choice to trust myself over anyone else.
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Comments
You have made a discovery and will no doubt make further discoveries with the passage of time, through your observation, through reading and engaging in dialogues with people, whether face to face or through the Internet.
Life is a long journey of discovery.
rgds
There could be something out there controlling the universe, but it hasn't revealed itself to us yet.
It, whatever it is, may not know how to communicate with us without scaring us into extinction, because we will probabaly anile ourselves trying to prove who's god is the most real true god.
You should trust yourself tho, to what you know is true and real not what society tells you is true.
It's called "intellectual honesty" by not trying to fool your own self that the make believe doctrines written over 2000 years ago have truth.
People that believe in such nonsense are walking zombies, they cannot think in the proper perspective, they have essentually been brainwashed and devoid of their common sense.
Ever notice people under heavy conviction of thier beliefs, they cannot make intelligent decissions? You would think that they, having what they percieve as wisdom would make them smarter than everyone else, it does not, it makes them dumb'er. Just remember that you are the best person telling you what to think, because you know what is truth and what is garbage, and most people have garbage running through their minds, the religious zombies that is. TC
You said two things I really liked, and which are sort of connected.
First off you said,"... I am finally confident in the custom faith I have created for myself."
I liked this for your honesty and courage.
Second you said, "I feel extremely bitter towards the religion (but strangely enough, not the God) and everyone else who has excommunicated me because of my choice to trust myself over anyone else."
I think this is connected to the first statement in that you have trusted yourself to create your own custom faith. The great and honest thing about where you are right now is that everyone makes up their own custom faith in some way or another, but they won't admit to it - not even to themselves.
And the courageous thing you did is to trust yourself in creating it. Most people don't trust themselves to make it up, so the look around to find something they like that someone else made up, or just stick with the made up story that was foisted on them when they were young.
Congratulations on getting away from the mind-warping craziness that is christianity.
If there is a god, I'm sure they would be glad you are using the brain you were given.
Good luck, and thanks for your testimony.
- Lance
Organised religion of any kind with do's and dont's,thriving on fear is not my cup of tea.It is said 'the seeker(you) when you are ready will find your teacher and you will intuitively know that he is the one'.
So just 'be' 'you'and rest assured you will find 'the master,teacher, source...whatever you want to call him, at the right time and place.
well wisher
Thank you for sharing :-)
Welcome to the wagon of hell-bound, happy riders.
If there were a hell, I would be more than happy to share it with the intelligent bunch of people who post here, including you.
See you there!
In hell, you will be totally isolated,
So, if you really rely on and worship yourself so much, it shouldn't be so bad.
Except for the burning.
For me, Christianity cost me so much, but I learned a lot about critical thinking, cognitive dissonance, etc. in the process of believing and deconverting.
"In hell, you will be totally isolated"
Anon,
I guess you know more about hell than Dante did. Perhaps you should write a book to update Dante's diagram of hell.
See..... LINK
AtheistToothFairy
Except for the burning."
Now we know why this one clings to christianity - he's scared witless.
But, if you read your wholly babble, you'd realize heaven is no great shakes either. After all, one-third of its early inhabitants supposedly rebelled against the landlord. So much for it being a perfect place where everyone is blissfully happy.
"But, if you read your wholly babble, you'd realize heaven is no great shakes either."
--------
Thackerie,
There are some articles on the web that 'show'(using math), that heaven is actually hotter than hell, if one uses the bible for data.
If that's true, I'm glad we won't be *AS* hot in hell, as all those christians walking the molten gold steets of heaven.
http://www.cybercelebrations.com/Valentines/Heavens_hot.html
AtheistToothFairy
No, you won't.
In hell, you will be totally isolated,
So, if you really rely on and worship yourself so much, it shouldn't be so bad.
Except for the burning.
Lorena:
Holy cow! Is that you, God, threatening me with eternal torment?
You confuse me. Here I thought that you were love and didn't like revenge.
I imagine the one who wrote was you ,God, because if it hadn't, the writer would've had the decency to cite sources and to point to scientific research that can back up the claims.
Sorry, God. I've decided not to repent today. I've chosen to go to hell to have a great time with my fellow de-converts. You had 20 years to prove yourself to me and you failed. So if there really is a burning hell and I end up there, it will be your fault for having been too subtle and invisible.
It think's it's saved from it, but it loves that everyone it hates is going there.
All those it's too powerless to get back at by itself will be got back at by it's imaginary friend in the sky.
great quote,lance,and i cant give higher praise than that
However,that being said, I still think there is absolute truth and it can be found if a sincere reading of the bible is done. This sometimes takes a great deal of effort since we have to unlearn the error we have been taught all our lives.
This is not to say I've found all the answers. I still have some problems with the very existence of evil, And how a loving God can punish us for things we didn't dream up ourselves. However, the belief in any other form of beginnings of existence (evolution) requires more faith for me than believing in God.
Technical correction here: Evolution is *not* concerned with the origin of the universe; Astronomy and physical cosmology are the sciences that study such origins.
Nor is evolution concerned with the transition from non-living to living matter. That is the domain of abiogenesis.
Evolution's area of expertise is generation-to-generation change within groups of organisms. The primary mechanism of evolutionary change is relative success or failure in producing offspring over many generations.
Small copying errors in one organism's genetic code will be neutral, favourable or unfavourable. The immediate chemical environment may sometimes affect which traits are passed down to offspring, causing some alleles to be active and others dormant. A high concentration of certain proteins in the environment can effect dramatic change in relatively few generations by silencing some alleles and switching others on.
We see the winners all around us (You're one of them, and so am I), and very occasionally we find the fossilized remains of something that didn't make it.
Speaking for myself, I find that a much more satisfying explanation than "Goddidit."
---
Saxman,
Your bible interpretation, that we don't have an inherent immortal soul, is one that is common to such xtian sects as the Jehovah Witness's and the Worldwide Church of God etc..
While one 'can' make a good argument for this biblical point of view, the majority of xtians don't hold this non-immortal soul view; as you implied.
So either you belong to a sect; such as I mentioned, or you realized yourself that the bible isn't all that clear on this subject?
In my younger days, I thought as you do now. I was sure I could read and study the bible sincerely and just dig through all the controversy of what the proper translation should really be.
It was, needless to say, a foolhardy effort on my part, as it's IMPOSSIBLE to ever discover
what the authors had intended to say. There are just too many obstacles in your way to ever figure it all out with any certainty, hence the reason for hundreds of xtian sects.
I'm sure you'll continue to try hard to do so, just as I once did, but in the end I know you'll surely do one of two things.
1. You'll realize you can never discover what the authors intended meanings were, such as I concluded long ago.
2. You'll fool yourself into thinking you found that 'rosetta stone' key and be just like all the other sects; thinking you have it right and everyone else has it wrong etc..
So while your quest to 'unlearn the errors' is indeed quite admirable, it's also quite impossible to do so.
As far as finding evolution so hard to swallow, I once thought this same way as you.
Just two decades ago, I was still fighting-off the idea that evolution eventually created man from lower life forms, with co-workers who held the evolution viewpoint.
Even though I had lost most of my interest in Christianity by that time in my life, I still thought there was a creator god out there, some-where, who made us all with a snap of his fingers.
It wasn't until a few years ago that my opinion on the matter got totally reversed.
I'm sure you're wondering how I could do a complete about-face on the subject.
Bascially, two things happened to change my view.
1. As complex as the theory of evolution might seem to the casual observer, once you actually take the time to learn how it works, and take into account how MUCH broad evidence there is to support it, it doesn't seem so far-out anymore.
2. If you think it requires a lot of faith to believe evolution made all complex living things, how much MORE faith is needed to believe that something a million times more complex than evolution, just came out of nowhere in this universe.
Obviously, the more complex a thing is, the harder it is to believe it just came into existence by itself. Worse yet, this god makes the claim that it always existed and didn't even just appear one day from nothing.
Why on earth would you need LESS FAITH to believe this surreal 'theory', when evolution is not only far less complex, but has tons of evidence to back it....evidence we can SEE and MEASURE, unlike the evidence for an invisible supreme being.
Just something to ponder while you're on the LONG road, that I once belonged to long ago.
AtheistToothFairy
I was an ex-christian before, and I would like to say that there is NEVER any fulfillment in that belief!
And after you die, what will happen?
When you accepted atheism, you accepted the fact that you will do NOTHING after you die!
You, I must say, are living a useless life!
Don't feel bad... you accepted that... Have fun with what 'useful' and 'meaningful' things you will do!
How is living a religious life more "useful" then living a non-religious life?
It has given me a purpose in which no trouble in my life can ever take away.
I may fall. I may be put down.
But I will NEVER lose strength. At least, not spiritually.
I WAS an ex-christian.
I debated with my friend against the Bible. I read the scriptures and reread it.
But it's foolish to fully understand it!
Who are you to debate against it?
Not even Einstine (sorry if that's not the right spelling) could fully discharge that fact.
But it feels good you know, to have a meaningful life.
I have to tell you, I was suicidal during the time when I was an atheist.
And oh how I wish I can let you feel the way I feel right now as I'm typing this down!
Joy- pure and utter joy!
It's funny how I used to describe this feeling as phsycological.
I'm waiting for the time when He will say, "Well done, my good and faithful servant.". Oh! I just can't wait! I don't know about you, but I can't wait till it's my time to leave this earth! I cannot even imagine it!!!
Haha, good luck with your death.
"Haha, good luck with your death."
Ha ha???...good luck with your death??? Goodness gracious, if "having faith in jesus" will compel me to say such things; if it will make into such an insipid individual, I wouldn't reconvert to Christianity if Jesus showed up at my house and cooked me breakfast.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
You only found meaning in this life by attaching meaningfulness to the next. WTF, over?
Just what this world needs.
NOT!!!
Wahahaha!
You fools!
All of you! ALL OF YOU ARE AFRAID OF DEATH! You know why? Because you all don't know what is going to happen! Tell me, what is the atheistic point of view of death?
Is there hope?
There is none!
Pure and utter nothingness!
I'd rather live a life with hope for death than live a life I think is worthless if I compare it to others!
If there is, tell me!
I'll be waiting...
You are obviously a troll and haven't bothered to read the Site Purpose and Disclaimer.
As such, all your future posts will be deleted.
As far as your manic fear-laden rants are concerned, I say this: the drunk may feel that life is better when he or she is high, but that doesn't mean he or she is correct.
Life is wonderful without threats of hell and fantasies about heaven. When I discovered that Santa Claus didn't exist, life seemed less meaningful. Then I grew up.
You need to grow up.
So, let's see, who's more "afraid" to die, then?....the person who believes that death is natural part of life; that death is a reality?........or, the person who clings to the superstitious belief that when they are pronounced dead that they will 'magically' float out of their body and live forever in the clouds along side a floating, transparent, bearded man seated in a golden throne? Hmmm...I wonder.(not)lol
You accept that you will fade out of existence and someday, your name will be forgotten. Haha.
No purpose in life, no hope for death.
LOL.
Is it better to have hope for life after death and find out that you're wrong, or to have no hope for death after life and find out that you're wrong?
Answer me! You did not answer my first question.
And you are funny.
You DID not exist, you WIll not exist, heh, might as well stop existing right now.
Good luck with whatever life you've got left. In the end, you'll end up rotting, either here on earth, or in hell. Either way, you're screwed.
You accepted that anyway?
I gave my discussion, and yes, it became heated, but no insults were shared between any of us.
What a coincidence, neither do you.
Anony: "Tell me, what is the atheistic point of view of death?
Is there hope?"
Death, it happens; hope, you trying to mentally project a positive side of what happens.
Christianity; hoping hell and eternal torture is real in the afterlife, so that heaven becomes a mentally justified possibility for personal reward.
You appear a little behind the intellectual curve; but, take solace, you are not alone...
The following link, presents the interview question and answer provided by the third runner up for the Ms. Teen USA Pageant. Here was her interview question:
"Recent polls have shown, a fifth of Americans can't locate the U.S. on a world map; Why do you think this is?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Khx0D9Vxg&mode=related&search
Well, can't say I'm surprised; perhaps, the message to all of the young ladies in America, is that the other two events are much more valuable and practical to build their future success and identity; evening-gown and swimsuit.
Yup.
"You accept that you will fade out of existence and someday, your name will be forgotten. Haha."
A few corrections here:
The matter that comprises Me will not fade out of existence. It may even change into energy.
And what's in a name, anyway? I'm not so attached to Myself that I would bother worrying about the opinions of people in a post-Me future. They are, after all, made of the same stuff as Me.
And so are you, like it or not.
You might attempt to explain how you can have more meaning in your life when you eventually get around to sitting on your magical cloud, fluttering your eyelashes at your precious little god. I see no intrinsic meaning in that kind of existence, either. Meaning is right here and right now. Nowhere else.
You accept yourself as a 'thing' a 'mistake' a 'useless blob on the face of this earth'. You consider yourself as an entity that is nothing more than energy- no- you consider yourself as a thing that's worth nothing more than sh*t.
You have already accepted the fact you cannot and will not do anything worth remembering other than the fact that you will provide carbon dioxide and nutrients for grass.
My dog does that everytime he takes a dump.
But then again, you ALREADY said that you are as helpful as my dog's excremen anyway...
Just try not to stink like one too...
As a matter of fact, I do.
You think it's foolish and unintelligent to stick to your faith.
You, my friend are the unintelligible one.
You try to understand, when you can't you give it up.
You try to prove, when you can't, you turn away.
But you will never prove it! NEVER!
And that's what makes you so foolish, because you can't take faliure.
Guess what, you failed.
Annoyin'us inquires: Then you are stating that you accept that you will die, rot, and feed plants when you take your last breath. Am i correct?
Yes, I accept that I will die. You are very astute, aren't you? 'Sorry to rain on your little party-in-the-clouds parade---but there is not one shred of scientific data that supports post-mortem "life"....for me, YOU, or any other living organism, for that matter. Seriously now, do you honestly think that just because you can "read about" humans camping out in whales, witch doctors, giants, unicorns, virgin births, swimming hammers, fiery chariots, Hebrew speaking donkeys, snakes, and shrubberies....and last but not least, people who survive death..i.e.."zOmBiEs".. that any of it has any kind of referent in reality? Good grief, if so, then maybe your great-grandma lived in a giant sneaker, huh? Or maybe the moon's made of cheese?
Annoyin'us continues: You accept that you will fade out of existence and someday, your name will be forgotten. Haha.
haha! yep!
Annoyin'us: No purpose in life, no hope for death.
"Hope for death"?? Oddly, it's you, the religionist, who seems to be focused on "death". I know it's a concept that you could never grasp, but it's precisely because life is finite, that gives it more meaning. We should be asking the Theists---if you're so confident that the world is one big giant f%cking abortion(after all, "God" allegedly "regrets" creating you)..not-to-mention, it's doom-laden with "sinners".....then what's stoppin' you? Beat it! Leave the earth to those who appreciate what it means to be alive.
Annoyin'us inquires: Is it better to have hope for life after death and find out that you're wrong...
Um, let's see now---if you're "wrong"; if there's no life after death, then you WON'T "find out", will you? Duh? **You might want to think your asinine questions through before you ask them, 'k Einstein?
continues...or to have no hope for death after life and find out that you're wrong?
lol! hope for death after life? See here**, above.
Annoyin'us: Yes! I accept that death is a part of life! But that's death physically. Christians believe that death is not the end of our spiritual selves.
Oh shit...and Raelians "BELIEVE" that UFO's are meeting them in Utah to do a little space-trucking; Bigfoot trackers "BELIEVE" there's domestic gorillas in their back yards. SO??? A belief is a belief is belief is a belief is a belief. If "beliefs" are "true" just because they are "beliefs"..then according to Muslims, you'll be burning in Islamic Hell = )
Annoyin'us blathers: You DID not exist, you WIll not exist, heh, might as well stop existing right now
Good grief> Okay, let's examine this logic. If you haven't gone to your son or daughter's one and only graduation, but yet, the ceremony doesn't last "indefinitely", then what?... you shouldn't go, right? If you've never been to a theme park and a friend gives you free passes to Disney Land, but yet, the passes aren't good "indefinitely", then you shouldn't do that either, right?? If this sounds like stupid logic to you, then Anonymous, I'd like you to meet your own logic.
Annoyin'us: Good luck with whatever life you've got left. In the end, you'll end up rotting, either here on earth, or in hell. Either way, you're screwed.
So, basically what you're saying is that everyone should be a Christian "just in case". Wow, what compelling reason to believe something. Okay, maybe you should believe in Allah, "just in case". Maybe you should leave some Oreos out for Santa, "just in case". Dolt.
Annoyin'us chirps: My dog does that everytime he takes a dump.
Why don't you just shoot your dog?....after all, dogs don't live forever in doggy heaven, right? Right, it's life is "meaningless", plus, you wouldn't have to work the pooper-scooper anymore.
Haha! You wake up, do whatever useless things you have to do, then go to sleep. The process repeats everyday till you die.
You're more foolish now!
As an entity, you are worthless, you have no buisness to be living at all. It is what you have accpeted. If you believe in evolution, than you have agreed to say that you are a monkey. If you believe in nothing, then you are evidently the most idiotic man/woman on earth.
Nah... I believe that you are the evolutionist, you have the mind of a monkey anyway...
Or maybe even smaller.
I choose to live, and I establish My own right to live by the act of doing just that.
And, after My body dies, those values will transfer to whatever I then become.
"Haha! You wake up, do whatever useless things you have to do, then go to sleep. The process repeats everyday till you die."
Yes.
And so do you.
The major difference is that your "useless things" include a lot of thinking and hoping and praying for life after death... A hypothetical state in which you will continue to do "useless things"...
...For eternity. Ick.
I "saw" the end of time when I was eleven years old. No meaning there, either. Perhaps that's why I never did quite comprehend the appeal of eternal life. But I do rather love doing stuff (useless or otherwise) in the here-and-now.
Define fact and knowledge, or not, I don't suspect you have a clue to what either of those two words actually mean.
Anony: "You think it's foolish and unintelligent to stick to your faith."
Not at all, I have all the faith I can possibly have in "me", to know what is "real", and what isn't.
Anony: "You, my friend are the unintelligible one."
Unintelligible... is that the same thing as illigitimate, like Jesus for example?
Anony: "You try to understand, when you can't you give it up."
Therefore, you assert that when you can't understand, you should still accept it... nice.
Anony: "You try to prove, when you can't, you turn away."
No, what I "know" is "proof", of "all" that I "know"... I haven't turned away from anything that I "know"... if you want to give me evidence so that I may expand what I "know", I'll gladly inspect it.
Anony: "But you will never prove it! NEVER!
Uh, berk, my knowledge is limited to my life experience, I know for a fact I have not met a God, and that is all the proof I'll ever need.
You seem very young and idealistic. As you mature, you'll find that you really aren't the center of the Universe like the biblical planet earth, or that everyone on this earth "must" prove or disprove your information.
Nope, I'm an atheist, because of "my" life, not yours. If you want to "prove" that "I" have met a God, specifically "your God", and that I refuse to admit the fact; then "you" prove it to everyone else.
Anony: "And that's what makes you so foolish, because you can't take faliure."
So, I should embrace "failure", like you, so that I am less foolish? The more of a failure, and accepting of my sinful nature, the less foolish I become to you - sounds like original sin, and self-rejection being blown in under an IQ radar of about 88 +/-5 pts.
Anony: "Guess what, you failed."
Yes, I failed to remain ignorant; but I have much confidence you are going to ace that test for quite some time to come.
After all, my dog's life has more meaning anyway...
Of course, you don't realize it, but with every word you blather about "death", and "meaningless" lives, you make it clearer and clearer that you believe that "life" is intrinsically pointless. In other words, you are essentially arguing that to "live", in and of itself, is pointless. Since this is your position, then I ask: what point is there to "live" forever, then? Can you tell the class? Can you enlighten us, Oh Enlightened One? Can you address ANY of the questions put to you?.....or will your impenatrable ignorance only allow you to keep regurgitating your Xian Nihilistic clap-trap?????? Will you at least tell us your age? Be honest....Allah is watching, and Islamic hell is a muthaf%cka.
Living forever in heaven is way better. Streets of pure solid gold, food that tastes way better than it does here on earth, no more crying, arguing...although I relish arguing with those who try to rationally prove God. If you've heard the stories of REAL Christians, you'd realize, God ain't RATIONAL (at least in the minds of us puny humans).
Humans were domesticated from monkeys just as dogs were domesticated from wolves and cats were domesticated from lions and horses from zebras and chickens and birds from ostriches, lizards from aligators, salamanders from fish, we're just hairless monkeys we tend to think we are different because we can talk and wear clothes.
We're still animals, we eat and deficate and fart just like all other animals, we breathe and we sweat and drink water just like animals, we breed just like all other animals, our sperm is white just like all other animals, we sleep just like all other animals, we smell like animals.
We have tried to fool ourselves by electing ourselves as being a higher species with our make believe god from the other animals, but we're not.
Humans are animals, no more, no less, we're equal to animals, just watch the daily news, even the wild animals act more civilized than we do.
Misty
If humans are domesticated from monkeys, then who (or what) domesticated us?
According to the second law of thermmodynamics, everything spontaneously tends toward disorder. Things just don't get better by themselves.
Fish to salamanders? What a huge change? They certainly did not change by themselves, and humans certainly don't have the capability to change them that drastically. So answer me: who (or what) did?
And if you haven't noticed, monkeys could wear clothes (although I don't know what would would drive them to do such a thing). and if you've seen the idiots who do such things, you could put clothes on dogs, too.
We ARE HIGHER because we have the capability to make that kind of decision.
get a life and a brain while you're at it!
Please click the "other" radio button and start using a pseudonym. A suggestion would be "redneck."
Ain't going to high school in the Deep South greaaat?"
Thanks.
Furthermore, you seem to only recieve value from your imaginary friend. Are you that much of a waste that you have to create an imaginary friend to give your life meaning? Isn't there any real person that loves you? Perhaps you can gain real value from your pet that needs you, or do you need it more?
We'll let you have your imaginary friend to play with if that's all you really have that gives your life meaning and value, but we are a little bit beyond needing anothers validation to give our lives meaning. We certainly don't need to make up imaginary beings and insist that they are real.
But if thats all you got then have at it.
But don't bother us with it.
I'm from the Land o' Lakes. Of course, if you're like so many Americans, you probably couldn't find it on a map, much less know what state it is.
And, life has a use in Hell in forever torture in the afterlife for everyone, but those who believe like you do...
Anony: "Living forever in heaven is way better. Streets of pure solid gold, food that tastes way better than it does here on earth, no more crying, arguing...although I relish arguing with those who try to rationally prove God."
Wow, I suppose you've actually "been there", to forever-ever land, and saw streets of gold, and ate at the best Waffle House in the multi-verse. Wonder which passage in the bible talks about forever ever land, with gold streets, and a magic Waffle House...
Arguing... isn't that how Satan/Lucifer, etc., was kicked out of the big-house according to the Christian fairy tale... not in the bible.
Anony: "If you've heard the stories of REAL Christians, you'd realize, God ain't RATIONAL (at least in the minds of us puny humans)."
So, you have to be "irrational", to talk about God, and irrational ranks right up there with a measure of insanity; I can see your reasoning, you present a pretty solid case on the matter.
False. No one said that you have to be irrational to understand God. But you must GIVE up trying to understand!
But then again, I guess you are too idiotic to understand the word give up. Instead you give in to your 'rational' ideas and run away scared because you are afraid of anything that you can't comprehend!
Lol, I got you figured out.
It could be all in your imagination. You made it up and that means it isn't real.
Or
Are you so pathetic that you can't make up your own imaginary friends and so you have to borrow one from someone else. Is that why god doesn't make sense?
Dear Cheesehead, when you figure out why you dismiss the claims of Islam as silly and irrelevant, then you'll understand why we dismiss your rants about your silly god so easily.
Oh, and the word irrational is basically the opposite of rational. You either make a decision rationally or irrationally. Based on your emotional outbursts, your belief has nothing to do with reason and everything to do with irrational emotion.
Regardless, please click the "other" button and make up a pseudonym. You’ll still be technically anonymous. Please keep in mind that this isn’t your website -- you are a guest. It is odd that someone who proclaims himself magically transformed by the living God would be such a rude guest as to ignore a simple request.
Oooh, since you know so much about Heaven – Can married people who are in Heaven together have sex?
If we die single can we meet someone in Heaven and get married?
Or can you just hit the bar scene up there and pick up a random bloke for a kinky one nightstand?
And do we have to worry about HPV and other STDs?
Eternity is a long time to go without sex, ain't it?
And speaking of magical waffles are there magically toilets too?
The kind that never get clogged. Oh, do the angels run the sewer system there or do we just poop on the heads of those in hell?
Just curious.
But not too idiotic to count---"give up" is two(2) words.
But anyway, yes, "give up"...i.e.. stop thinking; stop asking questions; stop trying to understand; accept the norm, and on, and on, and on....in other words, pretty much, become like an impenatrably ignorant teenager. No thanks....been there; done that.
Anony', you're obviously not here to have a discussion, but only to be provocative. Upon review, I understand the "validity" of everything you've tried to argue for thus far, say rests here:
Christians believe that death is not the end of our spiritual selves.[bold added]
Wow. Powerful.
Okay, as I pointed out earlier--and as you chose to ignore--just because someone "believes" something, does not mean it has a referent in reality. Obviously, Muslims "believe" that you will burn in Islamic hell. But you disregard that belief, don't you? Yes?....well, we disregard your "belief" just the same. If you'd like to take the discussion from insults, "haha's", and caricaturing the non-theist position with your empty rhetoric---to---discussing the evidence you have that your "belief" is true, and all others false, let's do that. Otherwise, you've worn out your stay here, and hopefully, the webmaster will just start deleting your future posts. The end.
Is it not true then that atheists "believe" that there is no God?
Do not throw foolish and idiotic reasonings at me when YOU yourself "believe" in something!
You hypocrite.
Funny. Well, hormones are very hard to handle huh?
I'm not necessarily sure about that part, but hey, who knows?
I mean, it's pretty weird how some desires can't be let go easily, but like I said, who knows?
But I'm pretty sure that you wont get any STD's (or any sickness) in heaven.
Good enough for you?
Hmmmm... And since the opposite of a dog is a cat, any animal that is NOT a dog is a... cat...
Are you implying this too?
A decision can be (and should be) thought up rationally, although some decisions are hard to make, you must think rationally about your desicion.
But there are times when you CAN'T rationalize things, times when you CAN'T put things in order.
Are you saying, when these times come up, you think irrationally?
Is that your thinking?
If so, then I'm not surprised. (LOL)
Instead, you either give it up to faith or ignore the problem and run away.
You chose the second one, you noticed that you can't solve Him and so, defined him as 'false' and 'unreal'. All you're trying to do is trying to look smart and making a whole cock of yourself.
You want other people to think that you are 'soooooo riiiggghhhttt' in your thinking and believe that you are the next genius. When you are really a loser, a maybe a fat guy in a basment of his mother's house. Or maybe just some passer-by loser who had too much time on his hands and decided to make this website and show off his 'discovery' to any other idiotic dickwad of a moron who secretly agrees with you.
"You need to grow up."
Haha, YOU need to see what's happening around you. You avoid miracles and try your best to ignore anything you can't explain.
I'm tired of shoving the truth to you, I'm tired of giving in to my anger and typing things to either aggrivate or just insult you. This will be my last post, any other anonymus person who will try to show the truth to you will not be me.
But I know this, you, all of you, WILL know the truth someday. Hopefully, it will not be too late.
Have fun finding ways to insult or disprove our beliefs. I will wait. I will reveal myself to you, webmaster, either here in this life, or the next(although you don't believe this). And I will pity you, oh, I can see it now, all of you groveling in fear for turning away from everything that tried to pull you to salvation.
May God have mercy on your souls.
Ignore this, if you want, it's your choice, it has always been your choice.
Although I already pity you for the decision you have made.
Grow up.
So, one must accept what they can't understand? Let me repeat that, I think you are "missing" the point; by your suggestion that a person must "GIVE" up trying to understand God, you are;
1-Implying that God can't be understood by limited humanity.
2-Implying that people can understand God, but shouldn't because of some unknown reason you haven't provided.
In either case; this suggests (if you are not a hypocrite), that you don't understand God, yet, if you are a Christian, you "worship", "pray to", and "perform ritualistic acts" (baptism, etc.) because that is what you are "told" to do. Yet, anony, you blindly do as you're told. Without understanding God, you have no clue, whether or not your actions have any "meaning" in such a relationship.
If God is just a word, then it doesn't matter what you do in your life; pray every five minutes, the word is not going to be influenced by your actions.
I suspect, you are curious about what you have been told by someone, who you believe is honest and has given you some miracle pill to "make sense" out of why you can't "know" of God, which means, to "understand" God.
You can't "understand" God, because you have "nothing" to relate the word "God" to, in this Reality. You were given a harmonic sound, God, which you now hold in your memory, and you can recognize the phonetic sound via symbols/characters, but you can't take your thought or the word on a page, and link/connect them to something in this Reality.
Therefore, the "True" identity, of your God, in proper context; is just a thought you hold... and the thought is a recorded message, it was a sound, that later became associated to characters/word you could recognize for memory recall.
So, you see the word God, and you recall your memory, and what do you get... the mental "sound", and that's about it.
The reason you were told to not reflect upon that word, is that the word is nothing more, than just a word; and if you were to "understand" that point, you would no longer be capable of "believing", that the word, held more "context" than it "Truly" does.
Anony: "But then again, I guess you are too idiotic to understand the word give up."
Give up? What is it that I would be giving up, if I didn't "understand" what I would be "giving" up? I don't "understand", what you are "talking about", do you "understand", or... do you not want to "understand" anything, to include the reason why you spend time worshipping a word - God?
I gave up, trying to "give up", because only "giving up" is for "quitters" in the game of life, but, you don't care about this life anyway, so, that will likely not make much "sense" to you - do you "understand"?
Anony: "Instead you give in to your 'rational' ideas and run away scared because you are afraid of anything that you can't comprehend!"
Rational: "1. agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development.
2. having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator.
3. being in or characterized by full possession of one's reason; sane; lucid: The patient appeared perfectly rational."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rational
Rational, means, by definition, to be "mentally sane"... for you to suggest that my "sanity" causes me to run from that which I don't understand... and that I should let go or "give up" my mental "sanity" so that I can be a true "believer", actually makes sense...
Someone "insane", can't "understand" anything, to include the word God.
So, once again, I am not willing to become "insane", in order to become a "blind follower" (one who doesn't understand what they do) of something I "don't", understand.
Someone likely "told" you not to "think" too much about the word God, thinking/understanding is not "good" for someone trying to blindly follow a religious leader...
And, to promote "insanity" and "non-understanding" of one's "life", is harmful to both the person mentally, and those around them. There are entire religious groups that teach how not to be "intelligent", so that they can be freely "insane"... to argue against acting "sanely/rationally", is what an anti-intellectual would attempt to do...
"Anti-intellectualism describes a sentiment of hostility towards, or mistrust of, intellectuals and intellectual pursuits. This may be expressed in various ways, such as attacks on the merits of science, education, or literature."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism
You get your information, from someone who is obviously an anti-intellectualist, at least about understanding and being intelligent about what the word God means.
Anony: "Lol, I got you figured out."
Well, is that you attempting to be "rational", or "insane" about what you believe about me?
....you[non-theists] either give it up to faith or ignore the problem and run away.
And which "faith" would that be? Any time you accept something on "faith", you open the door to an infinite number of things to be accepted as "truth", in lack of empirical verifiable evidence. In other words, with "faith", one can believe, literally, ANYTHING. The problem---your problem---is that "believing" something doesn't mean it has a referent in reality. Little children have "faith" that they have invisible friends, too... and that their dollies talk to them.
Since your arrival, you've been asked several times to provide evidence that the "Christian Faith" is "True™", and all other religious faiths false. Tell me, when will you either, a) enlighten us with this evidence, thus, negating your "faith", or b) show us that all other systems of "faith" are false. Waiting.
Annoyin'us: All you're trying to do is trying to look smart and making a whole cock of yourself.
Honestly, you really haven't set the "smart" bar too, too high..have you? I mean, you think the "opposite" of "dog" is "cat", and you think "give up" is one(1) word. So, we don't really have to do too much to look smart around you, do we?(rhetorical)
Annoyin'us: You want other people to think that you are 'soooooo riiiggghhhttt' in your thinking and believe that you are the next genius.
Find me any post on this thread that suggests anything remotely like that. A position of neutrality does NOT mean one claims "genius"--it means they're waiting on credible evidence before they make the information a "belief". 'Follow? Waiting.
Annoyin'us: You avoid miracles and try your best to ignore anything you can't explain.
I've got an idea----why don't you show us a f%cking "miracle" by addressing the things put before you? Wha'da ya say, little man? If you refuse to do that, show evidence of some other "miracle". This should be interesting...... in a "haha" kind of way.
Annoyin'us: But I know this, you, all of you, WILL know the truth someday. Hopefully, it will not be too late.
We know the truth now--everybody dies. After that, no one will "know" anything. 'Hope that helped.
Annoyin'us: I will wait. I will reveal myself to you, webmaster, either here in this life, or the next(although you don't believe this). And I will pity you, oh, I can see it now, all of you groveling in fear for turning away from everything that tried to pull you to salvation.
Oooo...a bunch of groveling zombies. 'Sounds like "Dawn of the Dead", only real!! Boo!!!
continues...May God have mercy on your souls.
Yes, may Allah spare you.
Anony's last words: grow up
Speaking of "grow".....why don't you GROW a set of balls and for once actually challenge the bullshit beliefs that your mommy and daddy spoon-fed you. Dolt.
I'd like to recommend that you attempt to evangelize with love for Love as best as possible. You have a highly abrasive and condescending attitude with these people of unbelief. Please try to remember that the faith you have is a grace from God and that you & I did nothing to merit this grace. If we can all humble ourselves enough to remember this (our sinful nature does make it difficult), we should be turning torwards God in prayer and sacrifice for all those that are choosing a life of ignorance towards God.
Also, it may be important for you to realize that the regulars at this site are refusing God's grace by denying His existence. Under these circumstances I would advise you to read Matthew 7:6. When people are obstinately impenitent I suggest that our words and even God's written words will never be enough. Most of these people know the bible's words better than us, yet they don't understand it. I propose that living as holy as possible coupled with prayer and sacrifice, by God's grace, may be a better approach to this degree of godlessness.
Nothing is impossible for God, even the conversion of the most obstinate atheist.
Blessings,
Art
I was ripe for the pickins', RIPE!, I tells ya!
But your IMAGINARY FRIEND didn't do squat!
Two hells for the price of one.
Can he even de-convert the most obstinate Christian? Now that would be impressive.
fjell
What makes you think He owes you (or any of us) anything? You have life and the freedom to choose anything that is contrary to His nature or to choose what is in line with His nature.
The truth is that you have the chance to seek Him, now!, but your pride and arrogance have convicted your own God (your Creator!) of failing you...?
I do pity you SN and will pray for you. You appear to have burried yourself under a mountain of pride. Anyone that says that their God failed them has to have built himself one hefty pedestal. Regarless of your state, just try coming down and then reaching out to Him in sincerity and humility. I can assure you that His heart is aching to have each and every one of you fall in love with Him.
His love for each and everyone of us is real and it is Eternal!
Art
If you found yourself on an ex-Muslim site (they exist!) instead of an ex-Christian one, and someone added a comment which perfectly mirrored the language in some of your own - only Allah was referenced instead of Jehovah - how convincing would you find it? How valuable would you find those comments?
When you come up with an answer, you will begin to understand why the language of your comments is wholly useless to us here on this site. It is rhetoric. Do you know what that is? Do you know why you discount the rhetoric of other religions before delving into a lifelong investigation of their claims?
fjell
I DID seek him. He failed me. Why is that so hard for you to understand.
Tried him, didn't work, moved on.
SEE! Now Please pull your head out of your ass so you can realize what I am saying.
I put every effort into seeking him out. He did nothing.
O.K. Got it now? No How about:
Your god, jebus, holy spook, whatever, Is supposed to help those that honestly seek him and his will. That's biblical. You with me so far? I did that and nothing happened. Still there? o.k. SO....
...Why should I continue to seek after, and believe in, something that doesn't do what it promised it would?
Now, as far as my "mountain of pride", well I have little if any. I'm under-educated, overweight, unemployed, broke, in debt, and in need of medication for my mental abnormalities.(that last one is debateable) I have a very long list of personal failures that would make any therapist glad to have me as a client.
But, I know I gave the bible god a try. I know what the bible says about jebus helping the lost sheep. I recieved NO help from him in ANY way. If you consider it pride to use common senseand logic to make decisions about the nature of the word then I guess that would make me full of pride.
but...
...IT DOESN'T MAKE ME WRONG!!!
When I hear of someone that is going through various trials, I see God at work. My conversion was also spurred by a trial. Once I started accepting everything in my life and started working at turning away from any sin I could find (hatred, impurity, pride, etc...), I started to hear Him more and more. The gospels started to make sense to me.
It's not about being right SN, it's about acknowledge that we're all wrong! It's about realizing that our selfish wills are always wrong and only He's the right way.
Suffering persists but now I offer it to Jesus such that He may join it with His suffering in order to atone for my past sins and hopefully, my puny offerings will be joined to graces for the conversion of more souls.
I would like to advise you not to expect any help from Him but to simply accept everything and trust Him. He will bring you where He wants you and I can assure you that His peace and joy will reach you. Just trust Him and above everything, love Him from your heart.
If your love for Jesus is next to non-existent, give it to Him and ask Him to help you love Him properly. He will ever so gently feed you and bring you into life...into love.
Blessings,
Art
But if for some reason you don't love HIM back, HE will roast your ass forever and ever and ever in his loving torture chamber of retributive horror.
That, apparently, is what is meant by unmerited grace! Isn't it amazing?
Art, you claim that your god exists and that she is the one and only true god. I'm curious, Art, how did you come to the understanding that your version of your religion is an accurate representation of reality? How do you know that your immaterial, invisible, deity exists and that all other deities are just made up myths?
Care to share?
You can try to convince us all that God wanted eternal seperation from Him (ie. Hell) but we all know that it started by your rejection of God's love followed by man's failure in obedience.
You've lied and continue to lie to multitudes by convincing them that God is unjust but your lies are soon to be uncovered for all the world to see!
In the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, I command you to release some of these souls!!!
Art
Those that desire God will be free of you, by the blood of Christ!
So I take it you have no idea how to answer my questions except to close your ears and shout, "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!"
Hmmm. Well, keep praying. If your God is as powerful as you think she is, surely a website shouldn't prove too difficult to bring down. In the name of Jesus I challenge your God to erase this website from the Internet right now!
Are we still here?
Hmm. Maybe we should try invoking Thor or Zeus or RA or Allah instead, Art. Perhaps those imaginary deities have more power than your imaginary deity.
It aint workin dude! Ha! Perhaps you're not prayin' to the correct deity. Try allah, odin, vishnu, and Ra, to see if them gods will answer your prayer.
Or perhaps you didn't come to god with an honest heart? Perhaps you have sin in you heart that keeps god from hearing your prayers?
Try speaking in tounges next.You know like...BALABALABASHINSAMARIJUANAMANRA!!!
Or sacrifice a goat!
That should do the trick.
OHH! I FEEL IT! I FEELS IT A WORKIN' ON MY SOUL!!!
Not!
SOME!?! SOME!?! why not all?
What happened to "Nothing is impossible for God"? HMMM?
Art, your overly-broad statement is probably the most common misconception held by believers. In fact, it's absolutely false, at least for a great many apostates (including myself). If you have any interest in correcting this error, and perhaps expanding your understanding of why many (perhaps most) people who leave the Christian faith do so, I'd be quite happy to have a civil discussion with you. In fact, I'm sure there are many here who would do likewise. I'll leave it to you. Do you wish to come to a better understanding of why we believe Christianity to be a false religion?
Stronger now: I think cheesehead just got scared and ran away like a coward.
Maybe so, but not before getting in one last ad hominem attack under a different pseudo'..i.e. "Godisgood". Golly gee, I wonder who that could've been?? lol. Nonetheless, said post seems to have now been removed, thankfully. In any event, let's say that I am a "retard", for the sake of argument. So here then, is what his or her argument amounts to:
1) boomSLANG doesn't believe that my beliefs are based on truth.
2) I, Anony'-teen, believe my beliefs are based on truth.
3) Therefore, my beliefs are based on truth.
4) Therefore, God exists, you retard.
There you have it, folks. A rock-solid foundation for "belief" from a "True Christian™".
Then we have diplomatic Christian, "Art", chime in with: I'd like to recommend that you[Anony'-teen] attempt to evangelize with love for Love as best as possible.
Let me attempt to explain something to you, Art. Whether you evangelize/minister with "Love", or not, please understand that you are implicitly promoting/propagating a doctrine that not only condones the killing of non-believers, but promotes it, as well.....even if this means killing your own family members.(Deut)
Art, killing people for non-belief is NOT "Love". And in the words of my cyber-friend and fellow site member, Astreja: "Jesus is not love; LOVE is love"[paraphrazed]. Furthermore, "love" with conditions attached is NOT love at all, my friend. Unless you are a Christian Universalist(all people get into "Heaven"), then, once more, you implicitly subscribe to a "god" whose "love" for it's followers is CLEARLY conditional. If this is the case, as I am guessing, then I'm sorry to hear this, and I would hope that you would rediscover your innate reasoning skills, and reevaluate you current beliefs objectively.
Art to Anony'-teen: Please try to remember that the faith you have is a grace from God.....
Wrong. More than likely, the "faith" that he or she has was spawned when his or her parents indoctrinated them at an early age with the Christian meme(mind virus). If they were Muslims parents, Anony'-teen could just as well be regurgatating Muslim rhetoric, instead of Christian rhetoric. In either case, Anony'teen is screwed, because accepting something on "Faith", by definition, cannot be proven, or disproven. This is why opposing "Faiths" are killing each other as we speak---because NEITHER side can prove they are right, and the other is wrong. Do you get this, ART?...this is why as long as people accept legendary beliefs on "Faith", that we will have problems.
Art: If we can all humble ourselves enough to remember this (our sinful nature does make it difficult)
I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as "sinful nature"; there is only "nature". You only get such a perverse idea from your holy book. Another observation--if humankind was allegedly "created" with a predisposition, and/or, with the propensity to do things that displease their "creator", then the "created" have an intended displeasing nature. Period. If you'd apply some common sense to your reasoning, you'd see how absurd it really is. But of course, per Anony'teen, we are not supposed to question such things, and are to remain impenatrably stupid on the issue. Enjoy!
continues: ... we should be turning torwards God in prayer and sacrifice for all those that are choosing a life of ignorance towards God.
It is you and your superstitious, lengendary beliefs that breed ignorance.
Art: Also, it may be important for you to realize that the regulars at this site are refusing God's grace by denying His existence.
You sound like a mindless robot. Listen to WTF you are saying: You are essentially saying that one needs "God's grace"(whatever that is) to accept God's existence, but yet, one apparently cannot get this "grace" until they accept "God's existence". Duh?
Art: Under these circumstances I would advise you to read Matthew 7:6. When people are obstinately impenitent I suggest that our words and even God's written words will never be enough.
Please, I implore you to read [Qu'ran 9:73] Oh, nevermind, here, I'll simplify this for you---here it is:
"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites[Christians], and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed."
Please, please, don't be "obstinately impenitent" for having believed the wrong Truth. Allah's grace forgives! Amen!
Art: Most of these people know the bible's words better than us, yet they don't understand it
That's partially a great observation. So how's your foot taste? Seriously, did you ever stop to think that maybe it's because we know the bible better than you, that that's why we no longer believe it as any kind of objective truth? Are you suggesting that you understand "God" better than we?...when admittedly, you know less about what "God's Word" says than we do? Thanks for treating us to another hefty dose of Christian "logic".
Art: I propose that living as holy as possible coupled with prayer and sacrifice, by God's grace, may be a better approach to this degree of godlessness.
Oh, good grief. Okay, when you say living as "holy as possible", I take it you mean morally?.. as in---humankind gets morality from Christianity? Bullshit. Tell me, how many people have you thrown rocks at lately for "working on the Sabbath"? And tell me, should we throw rocks at prostitutes and rebellious teens too? Should I provide the verses that condone such behavior?... since you admitteldy don't know your own "Holy" book???
Art bolsters: Nothing is impossible for God..
No, nothing's impossible....well, accept for making "it's" existence known to all of mankind, and for eliminating "evil". Mr. "Omnipotent" certainly seems impotent when it comes to those two things. 'Funny how that works.
continues...even the conversion of the most obstinate atheist.
Please, won't you surrender your semi-Atheistic obstinate ways, and accept Quetzacoatl's "grace"? It's easy...just ask him into your heart.
Praise Quetzacoatl! 'So many gods to choose from! So many things to accept on FAITH! Praise the Lords!
Hey! It worked!
The only error I have is that I am a sinner. Yet, I trust Jesus to keep me close during my journey to holiness. There is no other way to be with Him. We must follow Him to our death.
By rejecting Christ you make it clear that Satan is your master and I can tell you without doubt that you'll not persuade any of those that truly love God to join your minions.
Be convinced of your truth till your last breath and let it satisfy your pride in this lifetime but know that you risk unfathomable loss.
Why not turn from your errors and renounce Satan! Turn from him and seek Christ's help in journeying towards holiness.
Is there a lover of righteousness burried in any of you? If yes, then you'll recognize your teacher's voice in the New Testament.
Blessings,
Art
Now we have another mythological entity to be concerned with? Wow! How many more are in this pantheon of yours?
Sounds like Olympian gods to me, but meaner and nastier.
Scary religion you have there, Marc.
Once again, why is that you have the opinion that these super-duper magical beings exist again? Hmm?
In the name of Jesus Christ I beg and plead that this website cease to exist, for the salvation of lost souls! All in agreement say "Aye."
Still here?
Man, for such a wonderful god, she sure is fickle.
Oh well.
God is always waiting to give His mercy to you and begin teaching you His ways. If you're ever interested in true peace and joy, come down from your pedestals and ask Him for help.
Blessings,
Art
Mart, I have one last challenge for you before I leave you to enjoy your delusions of gobblins, ghosts, and flying undead zombies. Can you/will you name or describe one hypothetical situation that would falsify your belief?... to where you would renounce Christianity??? 'Careful how you answer.
This should be interesting.
Again, I trusted in jebus as well and look how it turned out for me.
As you said: "I would like to advise you not to expect any help from Him..."
Then you said:"...ask Him to help you He will ever so gently feed you and bring you into life...into love."
For the last freakin' time I DID ALL THAT AND HE DIDN'T HELP!!!
He didn't bring me into love.
He didn't do squat.
That's why I no longer am a christian. Mkay! I realized it was all a big feiry tale.
Now why can't you understand that simple thing?
Oh, I don't believe in Santa Clause either. Do you?
As you said: "I would like to advise you not to expect any help from Him..."
Then you said:"...ask Him to help you He will ever so gently feed you and bring you into life...into love."
The point is that you must not test Him but trust Him. If you sincerely trust Him and seek Him, you'll find yourself immersed in peace and joy sooner than you think. It could be days, weeks, months but you must persevere in faith. If you are trying to temporarily pray to Him with the full intention of rejecting Him if things don't work out, you're testing Him and your love of Jesus is false. Give Him unconditionnal love to the best of your ability and then watch Him pull you close to His heart.
Sorry, but I must end this dialog, blesssings to all of you.
Art
Do you even understand which error I speak of? Even if you do, your response cannot be taken seriously. We all make mistakes; big ones and little ones. I think you made a fairly common and mundane mistake, and I'm willing to patiently explain it to you and help you to correct it.
Art continues "By rejecting Christ you make it clear that Satan is your master..."
By insisting on this fantastic scenario and refusing to consider that you might be in error on some fairly simple points you are ensuring that you not will not expand your thinking. Do you not wish to learn anything new?
The offer to have a civil conversation with you is still open, should you be interested. Best wishes.
"If you sincerely trust Him and seek Him, you'll find yourself immersed in peace and joy sooner than you think."
I did Art I trusted and seeked him and all that but that joy and peace never came.
"It could be days, weeks, months but you must persevere in faith."
How about over a decade? Yeah! Did it!
" If you are trying to temporarily pray to Him with the full intention of rejecting Him if things don't work out, you're testing Him and your love of Jesus is false."
No it wasn't like that I assure you. I wasn't testing him. I didn't plan on rejecting him, I planned on his peace and joy. It never came.
"Give Him unconditionnal love to the best of your ability and then watch Him pull you close to His heart."
I DID!!! He didn't give me peace and joy or understanding or pull me closer to his heart or anything even remotely resembling help or guidence or sanity or holyness or grace and love or cleanliness or regularity or faith or hope or peace or wisdom or strength or rightousness or riches or glory or weakness or anything.
So there!
Take THAT!, ye haughty man of faith!
Now run away you coward!
In other words, Land O' Lakes anony, if you start yelling at people, it only makes them more defensive about "you", not what you are trying to communicate...
Thus, Art, in his approach, suggests that "Land O' Lakes", isn't wrong about their belief only that their "approach" to others is out of balance, and why "others" refuse to accept what they say.
Also, for a bonus, Land O' Lakes, if Art is successful, you will become somewhat annoyed and move on to other sites, etc. So, the tactic is to; support you by suggesting that it's not the "word" that is the problem; it's "you", thus protecting your belief... obviously it's not this "word" that you don't "understand", it's "you" that you don't "understand"...
You see, if you "understand" you (where you found out about the word God, and what evidence was given to you), you will "understand" what the "word" really means, as well. However, according to Christianity you can't "really" understand "yourself", you are unable to really "know" anything...
Do you have your "eyes" open, are you reading this with at least somewhat of an open mind? In Christianity, the "people" are the "problem"... all Christians and "humanity" are sinful, disgusting, born naturally defective, and unable to "know" anything, therefore, all of humanity should spend their life, trying to make up for their "inherited" sin...
Do "you" remember ever doing something wrong in "your" life, before you were born; anony?
I don't remember me doing anything; yet, as a Christian, I was told that it didn't matter; I had to "pay" for the sins of my ancestors, and that "I" couldn't do it by myself, I needed to find "someone" or something "else" to pay for my "debt", that "I" didn't create...
Then, Christianity suggested that "I" would need to be "indebted" to the one who saved me from something I didn't do - forever...
Replay of events so far:
1-I can't "know" or "understand" anything in my life, therefore, I should "give up" so that I can become "wise"... A wise person, who doesn't understand something is "contradictory"... only an insane person would make such a comment...
2-It's not the "message" that has a problem anony, per Art, and Christianity, it's "you" and "everyone else"... yet "they" have no problem "knowing" exactly what to "tell you" and everyone else...
3-Christianity, suggests everyone is indebted for sins they didn't commit, because of Adam and Eve... only an unjust God concept, would force sin on all of humanity... an all knowing God concept, "knew" Adam and Eve would sin, unless God is not omniscient, and had no clue as to what was happening...
4-Christianity, suggests that "I" need to feel "guilt" for not being Christian; because, I am not taking the saving grace that was created, when God murdered Jesus... Yes, per Christianity, God knows "All", to include God knowing he would make original sin, and then, knowing that Jesus would need to be killed as a blood sacrifice, because God would accept nothing less... than blood, to allow people into heaven...
5-I must accept that "I" can't know or "understand" God's actions; but I "must" accept that I owe a debt for something I didn't do, and that if I don't accept the "blood payment per Jesus", that I will be "tortured" forever in Hell... a Hell, that the Christian God created, before earth... Remember, "All" was created in six days, right...
Here's the problem anony, and Art... Christianity, forces me and everyone else to feel guilt for something we/they didn't do, and to accept the "blood payment" (terrorism) for such a debt, so that "I" am in "servitude" for my entire mortal life...
Who will "guide" me in my servitude? Not God of course, I can't "understand" the word God, right... no, I need to "follow" other people (religious leaders, pastors, etc.) who don't "understand" God also, because their "non-understanding" , is much clearer than; "my non-understanding"...
Art: "I'd like to recommend that you attempt to evangelize with love for Love as best as possible."
Because, Christianity is not based on knowledge, you can't know what you are doing; therefore, you need to persuade using 'other' methods; love and compassion in theory. How unfortunate, that the bible has many lessons, which teach against such virtue...
Art: "You have a highly abrasive and condescending attitude with these people of unbelief. Please try to remember that the faith you have is a grace from God and that you & I did nothing to merit this grace."
Well, obviously, anony doesn't believe you "know" or "understand" what you are talking about... as well, it's ridiculous to suggest you have "something" like grace, etc., that others don't... because of the word "God", which you don't "understand"...
As well, you seem to "speak" on behalf of that "God", as if you not only "understand" that God, but as if you "know" what a God is thinking... and... you seem to "know" this "anonymous'" soul, which can't be understood either, enough to suggest there is "Grace" applied to it...
That is a lot of "knowing" applied to that which isn't "known"...
Art: "If we can all humble ourselves enough to remember this (our sinful nature does make it difficult),"
Yes, but you make it appear as "if" we are able to escape this sinful nature... if that were possible, there would be no need for the Christian tale of Jesus to have become a Blood Sacrifice...
So, which is it Art, are we able to "know" things, such as "God", if so, I would like you to provide that knowledge (based on evidence), I mean, who wouldn't want to know an all powerful God... count me in on that discovery, thanks.
Art: "we should be turning torwards God in prayer and sacrifice for all those that are choosing a life of ignorance towards God."
Okay, anony, are you able to witness what you are reading?
Art, not only suggests that you are fallen and in nature, and not really able to "know" anything... and, that you need to accept that you were born in debt by a loan-shark God, but that "you", also, "owe" a "sacrifice" of "yourself" to this God, on our behalf...
Christianity, is all about "self-sacrifice" for that which is totally out of your control... in other words Anony, you can sacrifice yourself into oblivion because of a God you don't understand, and on-behalf of people you don't really owe anything to, and because you were forced to believe you have a never-ending debt in life, because of some original sin before you were born...
In "your" relationship with this God concept anony, you have "zero" control... none, zilch, nadda, there is nothing in this relationship for you, except unending self-sacrifice, guilt, shame and fear...
Art: "Also, it may be important for you to realize that the regulars at this site are refusing God's grace by denying His existence."
Yet, Art... you have "nothing" to give to anyone here, if you actually believe you "know" about a God, provide "anony" with something... more than a "word" of course... I think we can all accept that the three characters... G - o - d... do exist, but only as characters on a computer screen... now Art, take those three characters and "identify" something in Reality that "those" three letters "point to"...
Let's be clear, I am not refusing that the word God exists; I am specifically "refusing" and "claiming" that I "know" for a "fact" that the word "God" has not been given an "identity" by a Christian up to this point in my life... I am still waiting Art, unless you actually believe you "know" the identity of a God that you can refer anony, and everyone else on this site towards... until then, you have hollow words...
Again, Art actually believes in Grace, anony, can we "know" or "understand" Grace? I mean, if Grace is a property of God, and we can't "know" or "understand" God, then, how does one suggest they understand "Grace" which is a product of God, in concept?
Art: "Under these circumstances I would advise you to read Matthew 7:6."
Anony, you must understand that most people on this site, were Christians at one point... we are well versed in the bible, it is the bible that has caused many to leave the fold... for instance;
Matthew 7:6: "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
Art is telling you anony, to treat us with compassion and Love, yet, hypocritically recites the passage in the bible, that calls unbelievers; pigs/swine, dogs/mongrels, etc...
And, why? Because I "want" to understand my relationships in life... that's it... there is a word "God"... what is the relationship between that "word" and anything else in my life; I know it relates to a sound I have heard, a word I have seen, and a book that the word appears in, but... beyond that... I have nothing...
Do I deserve to be called a swine, and dog, because I am trying to find that relationship, by a hypocrite?
Now, let's look a few passages down from Matthew 7:6;
Matthew 7:7: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
I have knocked, prayed, and spent in upwards of 30 years, seeking a relationship to the word God, it was never given to me... and anony, you suggest that I will never be able to rationally/sanely "understand" a God, even when the bible says; all I have to do is "seek"...
7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Art, do you have more bible quotes to give anony...
Art: "When people are obstinately impenitent I suggest that our words and even God's written words will never be enough."
The "words" that you are saying will never be enough, are in the Christian bible, and in the passages "above" that were cited... are you saying the bible isn't enough, or that the bible wasn't written by God, and True? Shall, not those who seek... find?
Art: "Most of these people know the bible's words better than us, yet they don't understand it."
Yet, Art, I am here waiting for you to "explain" what... seek and ye shall find, "means" to "you", because to me... it means, if I seek with earnest, I will find... and not tomorrow, today... If you have found, then why don't you tell us how you "understand" God, or have you not found a God either...
Art: "I propose that living as holy as possible coupled with prayer and sacrifice, by God's grace, may be a better approach to this degree of godlessness."
Again, beat yourself up and sacrifice yourself, that is the solution to all your problems in life... when you don't understand something anony, start beating yourself up, accept guilt, shame, and original sin, and beg for forgiveness... for something totally out of your control...
Art: "Nothing is impossible for God, even the conversion of the most obstinate atheist."
I'll convert today Art, and anony, if you help me "understand" what it is I'm suppose to be looking for... and don't say, I need to be looking for a "word", there are plenty of those God words on this single post, I think I have found the G - o - d, keys on my keyboard...
Art, marc, unblinded, etc., only comes out to play, it seems lately, when they think they can protect a Christian who wanders on this site from finding out too much... about their own "religion" and "doctrine"...
Anony, Art thinks he knows more about your God than you, so... can you "understand" God, or not?
C'MON ART!!! Answer the man!
I double dog dare you!
Respond ye wretched sinner!
Who can stand against you if you are with god? Hmm? Are you afraid you might see with a reasoning eye?
Is your faith not strong enough to reply to these honest questions from one so intent on seeking god?
Why doest thou kick against the goads?
And you call yourself a christian.
I've coughed up sterner stuff than you.
fjell
"...In hell, you will be totally isolated,..."
You don't mean, like... anonymous?
Have fun there in the Land o' Lakes (Manitoba?). Try not to fall into one of them.
"...And speaking of magical waffles are there magically toilets too?
"The kind that never get clogged. Oh, do the angels run the sewer system there or do we just poop on the heads of those in hell?..."
No, SEO, it's even worse than that. When nonbelievers get to the anteroom to hell, they get the tops of their skulls cut away, if it wasn't already done on the autopsy table on Earth, and the believers wind up actually excreting _into_ the heads of the hell dwellers. Then, once the tank has been filled, as it were, they, the apprentice demons, are given a new scalp, with a mullet, and sent back to Earth for a while to post anonymous adolescent ravings from the land of lakes (lakes of fire!!!!) to freethinker discussion groups, like our friend without a username over there.
Also, on another matter that has cropped up a few times in this thread... As a cat "owner", I can verify that the opposite of dogs isn't cats. CERTAIN cats are the opposite of CERTAIN dogs, true; but it's not always true in the general case of all dogs.
See, It all starts to make perfect sense now doesn't it?
>What makes you think He owes you (or any of us) anything?
Simple, because in your holy book, it says he created us.
Creating a thing gives even us lowly humans a moral obligation to take care of the thing we created.
How greater the obligation would there be if we could create a living person from dirt, such as you proclaim your god did?
Examples:
1. If I adopt a pet of any kind, then I morally owe that pet the care it needs. That means, I give it all it's basic needs, but above all, I do NOT HIDE FROM IT for it's entire lifetime.
2. If we decide to procreate our own offspring, do we not OWE them care and love.
Does any parent take the game of peek-a-boo to a level like your god does, where they would vanish until the child met certain strange criteria. Would they leave the child to themselves for years and years. Would they only remotely communicate with their child in dreams and visions etc.?
So, if most responsible parents don't even play this awful game, why does your god play this game with his own creation, and not just for a short time, but for thousands of years?
Can you answer me that one, hmmm?
>It's about realizing that our selfish wills are always wrong and only He's the right way.
So what you're saying is that your god is not 'selfish' then, yes?
Are you really so blind as to not realize your god's selfishness far exceeds what most people would even desire.
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't really know of anyone either here or in my own life, that would demand animal and human BURNT sacrifices to appease them.
Why does an all powerful god need to SMELL his burning offerings, hmm
Shouldn't such a god be BEYOND this, huh Art?
Then we have those material things that god demands at times. Things like FOOD for instance, that no real god would have any need for.
So I beg to differ about whom wins the selfishness contest here, Art.
Then you say your god is the 'right way'.
The only possible justification you could have here to make this a true statement, is if your god were real; then he demands we do things HIS WAY, which by his own definition, would of course, be the only 'right way'.
This is no different than any human dictator who decides what is the right way (meaning his own way) and demands everyone follows it.
Someone like Hitler therefore, has his own 'right way' and those who didn't follow it, perished.
Oddly enough, your god works in this same way as Hitler did.
Follow suit, or PERISH at your god's hand.
Now where else have we heard this before in our human history, hmm.
>Just trust Him and above everything, love Him from your heart.
>but to simply accept everything and trust Him
First off Art, it's not possible to love a thing that offers zero proof that it exists.
One can pretend to love a made-up being, but if the made-up being isn't reality, then one has fooled oneself into loving a huge NOTHING.
How many children 'love' their make-believe invisible friends that give them comfort when they're scared and such. While the love itself might FEEL real to the child, the object of their love is imaginary, and nothing more.
Eventually a child learns this friend is only a product of their own immature imagination and they GROW OUT OF IT.
That same process of 'growing out of' your imaginary god takes place when one's mind is finally, errrr, UNBLINDED and the imaginary 'god-friend' goes back to being the big nothing it started from.
To 'trust him' as you say, would mean we have to trust in something imaginary, just as that child might trust in their imaginary friend or a stuffed animal's magic to protect them. While it might FEEL real for a time to the child, as they mature they know this magical essence is nothing more than their own minds at work.
For you Art, you obviously never got past that stage of development, so you cling to something imaginary because you can't face the scary world without your god-friend, anymore than a young child can go to sleep without their protective stuffed friend.
It's the same problem Art, it really really is !!!
>Anyone that says that their God failed them has to have built himself one hefty pedestal
Do you mean a pedestal, kind of like the tower of babel?
You know, that really tall tower the humans built to try and reach god's abode, but god got afraid they were getting to close to him, so he fixed their little wagons.
So perhaps if one's tower, errr, pedestal is too high, then god closes his windows and shutters so we can't see him anymore.
Hey, my theory is as good as any, I think...LOL.
But seriously Art, for your god to have 'failed' us, would mean that your god at some point had been actually present in our lives. A god, that was taking some direct action to influence our lives in a tangible and provable way.
Most of us had deluded ourselves into pointing to various events in our past lives and then attributed them to some action of your god (instead of the mere chance that actually took place).
There hasn't been any single event in my life or anyone's life I ever met, that I have found to be supernatural in nature, let alone attributable to your god.
The hand of your god never showed itself enough to know with any certainty that someone was healed from his hand, or that his hand sent them some much needed money or food.
It's only because xtians have a need to FEEL their god is helping them, that they attribute the good things to him and the bad things to either chance or the devil.
This misguided process is no different than that young child thinking their stuffed animal scared away the monster under their bed or from their closet.
To the young child, it makes perfect sense their stuffed animal had such powers to defend them from a very real threat, and because the monster didn't eat them up, the child concludes their stuffed animal's powers to be very real.
The child has no evidence that would convince any thinking adult that this monster lost a huge battle with their stuffed pet, but to the young child it FEELS real, much as your god FEELS real to you, but whom has no more evidence than that child's magical stuffed animal.
Just because you have a book in your hand that someone told you your magical god wrote with his own hand, doesn't make it anymore reality than the little booklet a child gets with their magical pet. The child may believe the personal looking booklet was written by their very own stuffed pet, but most of us know a factory made them by the thousands.
Your god book writings may not have been written by a modern factory as the child's booklet was, but it has no more proof that it came from your god than the child has it's toy's booklet was written by the toy itself.
>His love for each and everyone of us is real and it is Eternal
Love is a hard thing to prove, even love between humans.
We can't put love on a plate and inspect it, so the only means we have to show it's existence is by it's resulting actions.
We can see how parents take good care of their children, which would be evidence that they love those children.
We can also see the giving aspects between partners that also would be indicative of love between them.
We can see how members of the extended family will also take care of their own, because they love and care about them etc..
It's a TWO WAY street in all cases here, but it is a ONE WAY street when it comes to your god's love.
While you may FEEL this love INSIDE you for your god, and your actions might even demonstrate this love, there is no return love one can see or measure from your god.
What you BELIEVE is that return love is made up of two things.
1. The way you will falsely attribute events in your life to the hand of your god, feeling certain that it was more than mere chance that made the event happen.
2. You get your return love from reading your bible writings.
You will open your bible and find some verses that seem to apply to a current event in your life and feel sure that god opened your bible to that page FOR YOU to read.
The thing is Art, I can do the very same thing and find a passage by mere chance that would apply to some event in my life.
Heck, I can do the same thing by turning on the radio and picking out lines from a song playing that apply to me at that moment, yet I don't pretend that god played that song just for me, like you probably would believe for yourself?
If these two items I just listed, are all the proof you have for your god's love, then you have nothing you can show a non-believer to convince them your god's love is real.
I know magicians who can do better tricks here, and do it without any god having to intervene for them.
In order for your god's love to be eternal, one first has to prove your god's love exists, then you have to prove that god himself is eternal.
We already covered the bidirectional love problem, but other than the bible saying god will exist forever, what shred of proof do we have this is a true statement?
We already know god lied to us MANY times in the bible, so why should we believe he won't die in a couple thousand years, or heck, already DID, 2000 years ago.
Do you have proof of either of these things?
>The truth is that you have the chance to seek Him, now!, but your pride and arrogance have convicted your own God (your Creator!) of failing you
My pride has little to do with wanting proof that something I would bow-down to, actually exists. If your god really wanted his human creation to worship him, then he wouldn't play hide&seek games with us as he just loves to do.
I'm pretty sure if he paid us a supernatural visit and showed the people of earth his great abilities, that most folks would not turn their back on him because of this 'pride' factor you mention being the problem.
Of course, if this god turned out to be representative of what we see he's like in the bible, then I think most of the human race would see him as an evil god, more so than the devil is assumed to be by xtians.
FYI...did you know Art, that god does far more evil things in your bible, then the devil himself, yet you think the devil is the evil one?
Not that I'm sticking up for the devil, but the comparison is noteworthy here.
BTW...can you at least prove the devil exists to us, because heck, that would sure get me thinking your god has a good chance to be real if his counterpart could be shown to be real.
Of course Art, there is zero evidence for the devil, just as we have for your god.
I know, in your mind you think the devil is making me write all this. The funny thing is, god let's him get away with it.
This idea that your god let's the devil and his demons do all this nasty evil stuff, really says a whole lot about how your HIDDEN god operates, doesn't it.
I guess if I were to do as your god does, but be the god of dogs instead, I might allow the devil-dog to go around and harm all the innocent puppies, just because I want these puppies to live their own lives with "free-will".
Tell me how any of this makes sense please?????
>He will ever so gently feed you and bring you into life...into love.
Have you really read your bible Art?
Is their anything 'gentle' about your god in most of that book?
Funny, but I see a warrior god, an angry god, in most of what I read.
Maybe the devil gave me a doctored copy of your bible?
What 'life' will your god bring me into....one like you have?
NO THANKS!!
I prefer to live my life in reality, in things I can touch and see and KNOW exists and pretty much can count upon.
Again, at least the love we have between humans is a two way street most times and one person isn't hidden 100% of the time from our human senses.
One last question Art........
The bible doesn't say and I therefore would have to assume that this holy spirit you are in contact with, would know where your god lives?
He's sure not in the core of the earth, because your book already place that devil being in that hot abode.
He's not hanging out in the sky (above that SOLID firmament) where your biblical ancestors thought he resided.
He's not shown himself to be on the moon or any other planet we've sent probes to.
We've looked very deep into the universe nowadays, not just with visual optics, but with radio frequencies and various light frequencies outside what the human eye can detect.
No matter where we look we see no evidence of your god....WHY?
Sure, your god, the angels, the devil, and possibly all them human spirits, might live in some other dimension that we have yet to detect, but if any of these beings actually interact with our human earthly world, we would see evidence that this sort of thing was occurring, yet we do NOT....at least not beyond the minds of those WISHING to believe this sort of myth.
No Art, I have no hopes here in changing your mind with all I've said to you.
You obviously have chosen to believe in your magical god, much as the child chooses to believe in their protective magical stuffed animal, and one can't easily change their minds either.
You have decided in your own head, that your god MUST be real, therefore any evidence to the contrary can't be allowed to enter your brain and interfere with that SELF-CHOICE.
Therefore, in order to continue to believe in your delusion, you must believe in your devil to, for all contrary evidence to your god surely comes directly from satan.
It's just impossible for you to accept that humans can find evidence to dismiss your god, without the help of the devil, because surely we would all find your god's footprints; if the devil didn't plant all that abundant counter-evidence everywhere on this earth.
Funny though, your god permits this fallen angel, one who fell btw from a perfect heaven, to go around and steal souls from him.
Doesn't it make far more common sense that there is no devil, no god, and that our lives have nothing supernatural guiding us or changing our fate etc..
I know Art, you are stuck in your make believe world, but maybe one day you'll wake up as we did and realize there is life outside the big bubble you made for yourself.
AtheistToothFairy
Humbleness is grossly overrated, in My not particularly humble opinion.
Your religion's mythology actually states that we are gods. All that "All have fallen short" crap is a Pauline addition.
By all means, dig yourself into a shit-filled hole in the ground if it makes you feel better. (Wow, what a weird concept that is...) Me, I find a stepladder far more useful when trying to reach a better version of Myself.
I did find your crying out to Satan rather amusing, in a tragic way. Your pretend god didn't kick us off the 'Net, so now you're cussing out his pretend evil twin?
Seek professional help, laddie. At least for your blood pressure.
"Your religion's mythology actually states that we are gods"
--
Hi Astreja,
I have to admit, this is a fun-fact that I didn't know.
Ummm, if we are 'gods' as you suggest, does it mean I have to give up my trusty toothfairy wings now? [g]
I don't think I'd be quite the same without them ya know.
Perhaps being a 'god' isn't all it's cracked up to be huh?
AtheistToothFairy
Well, my particular Goddess beat is a heck of a lot of work. Eat chocolate; pet bunny rabbits; romp around in the garden; eat more chocolate; cause or resolve Random Equipment Failures...
Hey, I needed something to do in the off-season, okay? And no one else wanted the REF gig so now I'm stuck with it. (Actually, it's a blast. I love taking Stuff apart and maybe, juuust maybe, putting it back together in working order.)
By all means, ATF, keep those wings. I, Myself, tend towards agnosticism regarding My own divinity.
Years went by, your fragrance left, your leaves exposed in the harsh winter winds began to fall, your head was bent and your petals lost their velvety freshness and their beauty, the sun had started to scorch you, your feelings grew hard. Hear Me; I watched you with pity, I could not bear it any longer. Many a times I approached you, feeling you, but you were too far gone, you could not recognize Me, you knew not anymore the One who was bent over you, holding you and calling you by name. I lamented to see your beauty gone, to see that I held in My Arms a wretched child, deplorable to look at. Your sight made my heart cry, for I could still see in your eyes a faint light of love, the love of your youth, you had once for Me. I lifted you to Me, your little hands clutched on Me; I felt relieved to see my child needing Me. I took you back home and healed you with all My Love. I gave you water to quench your thirst, I nourished you and I slowly nursed you back to health. I am your Healer, I am your Redeemer; I will always be, I will never leave you, I love you. I God will never leave you lose yourself again. Delight Me now and stay with Me. I raised you up beloved, lean on Me, turn to Me and look at Me. I am God, your Heavenly Father; realize why I am with you.
I God will do the same to all My other sons and daughters, for you are all Mine. I will not leave them scorch in the sun, I shall protect them and restore them, I will not wait to see their leaves scatter, I will not wait to see you thirsty. Remember, I God love all of you; I am going to reunite you all.
"...My bud started to blossom..."
Remember highschool? How you used to dread that the teacher might call on you to stand up just when your bud was blossoming? So embarrassing. Hafta make sure that your shirt was untucked...
Ah, those were the days.
Still can't answer the questions can you?
Why are you so afraid of our questions? HMM?
That was a pretty story there.
Can you tell the difference between what is real and what is made up? If so, HOW?
Also you left out the part where god sends us to be tourtured forever for being what he knew we would be before he even created us. Almost as if he wanted us to burn? Why else would he create something that he knew he would have to torture forever and ever and ever?
All this assumes that your god is real. You seem to have a problem produceing evidence for his/its existence.
...meanwhile, people die by the THOUSANDS from skin cancer, annually.
I'm not selling anything, those words are from our Creator (yes, yours and mine, see message 7 at tlig.org). You were made to love Astreja and to return that love to God. If your Creator's loving words don't move your heart, it's because you've turned your will away from Him for too long.
The price, if you must speak in terms of buying/selling, is that you give Him love. As I said previously, even if your love of Christ is next to non-existent, give it to Him. He will know your sincerity and will lead you to be baptized, to receive His spirit and by His continuing grace, grow in holiness, like our Lord....your calling. Our calling!
Blessings,
Art
Didn't I politely ask you on numerous occasions to stop spamming this site?
Everyone: This is Marc, Unblinded, and other various deceptive pseudonyms, who refuses to honor the request of this site to refrain from visiting the site. He is, to be sure, a prime example of how religion cripples a thinking mind and makes what would normally be a nice person into a complete ass.
Marc. Stop posting here.
Thanks.
A person who listens and attempts to understand the point of view of his/her "audience" is a person worth having a discussion with. Conversely, a person who is unwilling or unable to see past his/her own point of view long enough to grasp and reply to questions put to them is, I'm afraid, not worth conversing with.
Your posts have become increasingly bizarre and detached from anything but your own personal internal dialog. I have not seen any indication that you are here to discuss, but merely to preach and condemn.
We (the regulars here) understand your point of view extremely well, and are unanimous in asserting that it is unfounded nonsense. We grasp your Abramic god-concept and your Biblical theology. We get it. Most of us have even preached it and lived it. We now reject it as complete nonsense and relegate it to the same heap as countless other religions. Do you understand that? From your rhetoric it appears that you do not.
Is there anything we can profitably discuss? I strongly suspect there is not, so unless you can clearly articulate some specific topic and demonstrate you willingness to participate in an actual TWO-WAY dialog, I urge you to gracefully exit. I'm trying to be polite here, but I do hope you grasp my meaning.
Good day.
What I find very interesting is how quickly he reveals the futility of discussing anything with him. It only takes a few posts, under any name, to see how delusional he is.
Marc, you're a very sick man. Get some professional help. Please. But in any case, please show a shred of integrity and go elsewhere. At minimum, I challenge you to at least stick to one pseudonym, so that we can exercise our prerogative and avoid addressing you.
---
Do the folks who run this web site that 'Art-Marc' suggested here, really live on THIS PLANET EARTH?
Any thinking human would be far more prone to believe "alice jumped through the looking-glass", than believe what this site is preaching to the public eye.
Art, if you really buy what they're selling, then your reality is joined at the hip with those in padded rooms.
Padded room people 'know' their delusions are just as real as your own is to you. This is why we try and keep them locked away from society.
What a shame a few nut-jobs escaped into our cyberspace.
BTW Art, The 'shroud of turin' they keep showing on this site, was long ago proven to be a forgery, yet this site keeps showing it, as if it proves their Jesus existed and died. I'm surprised they haven't added the hundreds of other false relics that were created to fool the common folk of old, who were looking for anything of jesus to grasp ahold of.
Oddly enough, we are sorely missing any items that belonged to this well known bible jesus.
Isn't it terribly strange that no one of his clan felt his belongings were worth keeping.
Wouldn't basic human nature dictate that such items would have made a fine shrine to such a popular hero, yet we have nothing but these forgeries to appease the xtian mind.
Could it be Art, that we have no authentic relics, because your jesus never existed, well, not on planet earth, but I'm sure he did exists on whatever planet you live on.
AtheistToothFairy
Jim said- "you're a very sick man."
Have I, Art, insulted any of you by sharing with you that God loves you? Have I, Art, called you petty names?
Has God's love of each and every one of us not been apparent to you in the TLIG post that was shared? What is it about the love of Christ through humility that offends you?
Goodbye, I wish you spiritual health.
Art
>WM said- " He is, to be sure, a prime example of how religion cripples a thinking mind and makes what would normally be a nice person into a complete ass."
Jim said- "you're a very sick man."
>Have I, Art, insulted any of you by sharing with you that God loves you? Have I, Art, called you petty names?
No you haven't insulted us with petty names, at least not this round.
However, preaching your crap at us has the same effect as name calling.
It does nothing but insult our intelligence and show the lack of your own.
As far as you being called names goes. You earned those names for two reasons.
1. You keep preaching at us, thinking you can bring us into your mind delusion. As they say, been there---done that. Do you know what a TURN-OFF is Art.
It's something one finds repulsive, and most of us find your preaching quite repulsive to our minds.
2. A lot of us have tried HARD to have an honest debate with you, yet you avoid answering the questions posed to you and instead resort over and over to your BLINDED preaching at us.
>Has God's love of each and every one of us not been apparent to you in the TLIG post that was shared? What is it about the love of Christ through humility that offends you?
Your site, in a word, SUCKED. Of course you knew my opinion already, that is if you know how to read my post. I do wonder if you do read them, because you totally ignore all my remarks. Good thing my feelings aren't hurt so easily huh.
Humility.......I don't think there is a single person that hasn't experienced some humility in their lives. We all pretty much know that emotion and have dealt with it at various times.
One sure can feel pretty humble when called into the big-bosses office for some infraction.
One can sure get pretty darn humble when a cop pull's you over for going 30 MPH over the posted speed limit.
So what is the difference between these forms of humility and having humility when it comes to your jesus.
Answer.......The boss and the cop are REAL and can make one's reality quite miserable.
Your god and jesus are imaginary instead, which makes it really tough for those of us who live in reality to be humble to your god.
How easy would it be for you Art, to be humble towards the invisible Thor or Zeus, or the god of Jupiter, or even tiny pink fairy's dancing on ... 'Ur-Anus'.
Can you be humble to ANYTHING you have no proof for Art?
If so, that is equally as sad, as the devotion to the invisible god you have.
Stop by again when you can muster up a valid argument to our real-life questions. In the meantime, try to keep inside your little bubble world of imaginary play friends.
Perhaps you might want to visit some mental wards and do your preaching there. Heck, the folks there might even convince you that their delusions are equally as real as your own.
Then you can add to your collection of imaginary friends to play with....OH BOY, WHAT JOY!!
AtheistToothFairy
Thank you dear Lord for this tiny cup of suffering. Help me to feel like You feel and ache like You ache. I, wretched creature, trust You and wish to offer whatever pains you permit me, for the conversion of souls. Amen.
Blessings,
Art
All,
You know, it's one thing for some lowly, self-confessed, "wreched" person to remain in their self-induced microcosm of ignorance for a lifetime---but if this person has a wife and kids? Good grief.... that's GOT to be a murderous horrific existence living under the same roof with this person. If that's the case, those are the people I really feel sorry for.
Imagine, being a teen, or younger, and having your OWN biological flesh and blood teach you that you have ZERO net value; that your "worth" comes from some unseen entity who exists as "an eye in the sky", somewhere in the clouds. Imagine actually being taught to NOT think for yourself, and that you owe your entire existence to a deity---one whose best description is found in the pages of a dusty ol' book. Imagine only being able to ascertain, accept, and repeat the knowledge in said book, and that said book has the final word on everything. EVERYTHING.
Imagine being taught that "love" is comodity that is bargained for, and that you must, above all, love a being that you cannot see, more so than the people you can see. And if you don't?... you will be sent to be tortured(further?) forever in horrific agony.
Tell me now---if existing in the aforementioned conditions is a reality for his children, or any young adult, would that not be "hell" on earth?
Can I get a "hell yeah"??
Praise reason.
BoomSLANG, you are right. Given that he triggers our gag reflex with a few dozen sanctimonious syllables, imagine what those unfortunate kids must endure. Frightening.
Please be honest with yourself. You have been posting here for months, and I have politely and rudely asked you to cease and desist, yet you absolutely refuse to honor my request.
Yes, Art-Marc, that makes you an ass.
Hugs and kisses...
> Imagine actually being taught to NOT think for yourself, and that you owe your entire existence to a deity---one whose best description is found in the pages of a dusty ol' book.
Boom,
This and many similar thoughts, cross my mind every time I pass a church that is advertising for their sunday school, or worse, their pre-school program for 3 and 4 year-olds.
In the case of the latter; nothing like **brainwashing** those young minds as early as possible to ensure they'll follow suit.
It's one thing for religious folks to try and sway an adult to their way of thinking, but to feed this stuff to little minds that have no mental skills to realize its just another fairy tale, is surely right up there with other forms of mental child abuse. In this case, it's being 'shoved down their throats' and they have no choice but to soak it all up, unwillingly in some cases.
Funny how we get all upset when we see the Muslims teaching their young children to hate the infidels and being fed all the associated theology, but we can't seem to realize that we do the same darn thing to our own kids in Christian majority countries.
While we don't go as far as to teach them to kill non-believers, the rest of the package is pretty much the same story.
Seems to me we just keep repeating this scenario over and over again.
If one wasn't allowed to expose children to religious 'facts' until they reached something like the age of 12, I bet most of them would see 'behind the curtain' and know it's just another fable to be reckoned with.
Alas, we brainwash them so early on that they grow up thinking their god beliefs come from proven information, and not some ancient story book.
>Tell me now---if existing in the aforementioned conditions is a reality for his children, or any young adult, would that not be "hell" on earth?
Can I get a "hell yeah"??
You got it boom........HELL YEAH !!!
I can't imagine what his kids will grow up to be.
Sometimes though, our inherited genes are more dominant than the brainwashing, so maybe his kids will 'see the light' by the time they grow up.
AtheistToothFairy
Art/Marc is posting; I love you posts, not because he is sincere, but because of damage control... he is attempting to protect the innocence of the insane lambs that show up, and are given a lesson on their religion...
He only shows up, when there is a new face on a thread, and he feels it his duty to divert firepower by calling it in on himself... like the legendary martyr Paul...
This is the modus operandi of Art/Mark, etc... Sees new personality on site, innocent and ignorant, and he goes immediately into chaff, flare, maneuver... while telling the poor ignorant Christian to scram and go do some self-beating, in oh, so polite a manner...
This is an open forum; but in regard to each thread there is clearly no relational link between the initial thread and follow on posts, which are primary, or, evolving discussion that can be traced back to the original thread, which is secondary... nope, Art/Mark, etc., jumps in to keep the purely ignorant, justified in their ignorance, that is his entire agenda...
There are two competing agendas; some of us want to engage in a sincere thread of discussion where reason and common sense prevail, and we all leave a little more aware of our environment that we co-exist within; everybody wins...
And then, there is Mark/Art, etc., who has no intention on allowing a new fresh Christian personality, to be tainted with truth, reason and "sanity"... and so, engages in his little tactics, as if he is oh, so clever...
Art/Mark, if that anony was actually a real anony, from Land O' Lakes, you can only hope that they quit reading like you wanted; because if they actually existed and are watching your posts, they are likely going to realize how mentally warped you are...
And, I'll give an example on the way out the door here...
Love is an action; and you must love (care for) yourself "first" (self-sacrifice doesn't work), if you don't know what that "means", or "understand" that, you have serious identity and emotional issues that need therapeutic intervention... anything used to inflict physical or psychological damage on one's self is not "caring" for oneself... but that is exactly what you are suggesting anony and all other humans do... And, then, you call that "love"...
Art/Mark suggests that love is synonymous with self-inflicted hurt/suffering...
And, to end this, maneuver provided by the pseudo-sincere Art/Mark, etc., one can't "love" someone else, unless they actually "understand" what that means... as much as someone can actually "worship" a God, that one can't "understand"...
Are you getting this anony, and all other Christians in the world; you have to "understand" what you are talking about, in order to communicate with "others", or your "words" make "no sense"... and in the case of Art/Mark, they not only don't make any sense, his "type" of love that he promotes; is self-mutilating, it's worse than "not" making sense, he actually prescribes the method by which to invoke such love...
Any Christian in the world reading this, should be aware that Art/Mark is the shining example of why many have not only "walked away" from the fold; but put on track shoes, and bolted as far away as possible from the; negative, self-loathing/hate/contempt that is "taught" as the standard to "be" a Christian...
The liberal Christian would suggest that they are carriers of "sin", but by the blood sacrifice/murder made by their God, they can pledge their loyalty and enter into a period of temporary "remission", and somehow be, "better off" than all of those "other" Christians, or non-believers...
Okay, Art/Mark, etc., go ahead, invoke the word-chaff, word-flare and maneuver in order to bump this post, come up with some "poem", etc., so you keep to your agenda... I wonder if you actually understand that you are likely doing as much damage to your "religion", as anyone else could do...
Christians do show up at times, to search for logical and well-reasoned answers - truth... So, Art/Mark, etc., those are the ones that are likely going to see you for what you are; intentionally unconcerned with seeking truth, because you don't care about that; you are more concerned with "telling" everyone else what is "True", and ignore anything put your way...
Of course, those who are seeking sanity and truth, you will justify in your mind as lost causes anyway...
You realize, by promoting yourself as a God, is not likely going to earn you any points with anyone who has a shred of sanity, right...
Bullshit. You are trying to sell us the same junk that we tossed in the trash. Your concern for us is mere stubbornness, not actual compassion. If you actually understood and respected our reasons for disbelief, you wouldn't keep coming back to this site to preach the same tired old crap.
I am of the opinion that you are lying to us, and to yourself as well, by pretending to speak for a "creator" that does not appear to exist anywhere outside your own imagination.
"You were made to love Astreja..."
No. I love many beings, but "Marc's pet god" is not one of them. Deal with it.
"The price, if you must speak in terms of buying/selling, is that you give Him love."
That price is far too high. Nobody demands love of Me. Ever.
Marc, thank you for providing such a stellar example of why we were right to dump Christianity. And for all the new deconverts, too. I'm reasonably certain that every time you show up, at least one person who's sitting on the fence goes "WTF???" and walks away from Baby Jebus.
And your time to go "WTF???" is coming as well.
May your 'cup of suffering' become bone-dry and devoid of all meaning. May you throw off the slanderous label of 'sinner'. And may you escape your religious delusions and join us in the real world.
When someone suggests that you go get some help, it isn't just a fancy way of putting you down. Everyone, every single person, needs a bit of help somewhere down the line. (Been there.) Forget about the connotations of the words and just look at the dictionary meanings of the words: get, some, help. Just do it as an experiment; you can always leave the office after & say you checked it out and came to the conclusion that you're okay. What have you lost?
Maybe stick with the same username for an extended period of time, too.
Someone was wondering where dano's gotten to lately. I've been wondering whatever happened to Antlerman; I always liked reading his posts.
Mark lives within the shaddows of the cross. He has been scared completely away from his own commn sense from fear of hell.
His mission is not to read anything posted here by us, nor to give a us proper responce to our questions. His mind has been destroyed, it has been stolen from him, this is also the great problem with all Christains.
Their critical thinking skills have been stripped away and they have been shown that it is against god and of the devil to read or question anything outside of the bible. It's also the same thing as with the koran.
What we are dealing with here is mental psychosis in the form of brainwashing.
That type of mental psychosis has to be used in order to control people's minds and if you can control their minds, you can control them and their money.
You can send people to war, you can tax them, you can sway them which way to vote, you can conquer other people lands and kill the owners and still get instant forgiveness for having performed murder.
Because a god sent his son to save us all from our sins.
A god savior, whom comes to us from between a girls pee hole and her ass hole.
What will this imaginary god think of next??? hmmmm?
In response to Marc's thoughtless posts, I recently said: "Unreal; what an insipid individual, and an utterly despicable waste of a human mind this is.
I'm sorry, I refered to Marc as an "individual". My bad.
I am the Hope the world is looking for; this Hope they are looking for is within their reach; they have but to stretch their hands towards Heaven and search for Heavenly things, they could seek Me and I shall respond to them; I am not hiding My Face, nor am I turning My Eyes away from them; My Eyes observe you all and survey all your steps
My Spirit indeed fills the whole world to brighten this darkness and give Hope to those who grope their way in this endless night; beloved, with Heaven your homeland and earth your pilgrimage all the more reason to rejoice and to hope
O creation, am I to unveil your death shroud and not bring you to life? or I, who bring to life, am I to send you back to death? I am Mercy, I am Love; look up in Heaven and see the Signs of the Times; I am coming to gather nation after nation and show My Holy Face to each one of you and remind you of My Love;
but look, the beginning of sorrows has started; the beginning of your birthpangs too, you are witnesses, since you became believers, that what you read in Scriptures is coming to reality: the outpouring of My Spirit in these last days of darkness is being poured out lavishly upon mankind; you are witnesses to things which were in riddles and said in parables before; you are witnesses of Satan's cruelty, but I promise you, little children, that soon after your sorrows (which will aggravate) will come Joy, and after your birthpangs, Love will be born among you! but today I look with dismay from above on this generation's crimes which now have outdone the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah, because your hopes are built on a false Christ;
this generation is vile, rebellious and polluted with blood, and living under Satan's shadow; O era! your fine and so-called wisdom has indeed walled Me out because your hearts pompous and filled with arrogance consider to be the equal of Me your God; "are you still going to say: I am a god, when your murderers confront you?" 1 already blood is flowing in your streets; in your wickedness you build up your hopes in all that is not Me; you have put your hopes on men, and not on Me, on riches that do not save you disregarding the Treasure I offer you in Heaven; you are building your expectations on mankind based on a Lie, because you believe you can accomplish everything in your own human strength; indeed, you2 have amassed great wealth in your busy trading, but tomorrow you shall die
few are those who ask: "why is it that the Lord and His Mother descend suddenly upon us?" and only a remnant of My sacerdotal souls are concerned about Our regular manifestations; "I have said, that I am going to send My Messenger to prepare a way for Me,3 " and this is exactly what My Mother who is your Mother too is doing;
Scriptures are being fulfilled and I tell you solemnly, that the One whom My Abels and My Jacobs were longing for, will suddenly come, entering His Temple to extirpate the Cains and the Esaus who made havoc and ruin out of My Church you have industrialized My House; this House which should have been a House of prayer! you have indeed, turned My House into a den of thieves! if I am as you4 say: "the Holy One," then where is the honour you owe Me? if I am indeed, your Master, where is My respect? if I am your God, where is My adoration and My incense? where is My devotion? how is it that you cannot read the Signs of the Times? how is it that you cannot understand Heavenly things? how is it that you do not believe anymore in My Marvels? why are you persecuting My Abels and My Jacobs? if not openly, in secret?
I appear as well as your Holy Mother, and We manifest Ourselves through souls, in many nations, but Our manifestations weary you, and even anger you; "how tiresome it all is" you say5 for to this day you have not understood the Heavenly things like My Abels and Jacobs, no, you have neither understood My Love nor the devotion you owe My Mother; you call to faith and rely on your strength your authority and your reasoning; My Voice calling out today for repentance to the sinners disturbs your ears; when Righteousness suddenly shines out with healing in its rays, you refuse My Gift which is offered today in your dark era;
am I to accept your persecutions over and over again? am I to sacrifice year after year My Abels and My Jacobs who are the incense of My altars and the sturdy pillars of My Church? you have closed your ears to My Voice to listen only to your own; you have deprived many of eating the fruits of My New Vineyards because Satan has entered you and ambushed your spirit, and lo, others are atoning for your crimes; 6 others are atoning for your vanity and your folly:
to save you; everyday these generous souls offer their cheek to you, to be struck, to be abused and afflicted, for your sake, these generous souls expiate with their own blood: to save you;
I am waiting to hear you, but you are not saying what you ought to; you do not repent, but you go astray as you pursue your course dragging millions behind you; you go for seats and authority but not for conquering and saving souls, but you shall fall ... and this continuous apostasy shall cease ... and in you My Abels and My Jacobs I shall rebuild My altars that once were, but that now lie in ruin;
I shall make crystal-clear rivers flow out of you and your witnessing shall be fruitful because these waters will be coming out of My Source; and like trees of life growing by this Holy river, My children shall prosper from your witnessing; children, courage, I have not abandoned you, nor have I forgotten you; anyone who lives in Me will feel My Love, anyone who feeds from Me shall not be cut off to die, he who remains in Me shall live; I, the Bridegroom descend to wed you in My Peace and Love and remind you that from the Beginning you were Mine;
I, the Lord, bless you, leaving the Sigh of My Love on your foreheads;
be one, under My Holy Name
"Art said...
peace be with you I Am Jesus"
Oh bless us with your great wisdom, Fartsulla!
Well, not to be outdone: "Shine-a-ma-honda, wax-a-ma-honda... Oh, fre-shundies."
To the unitiated, that was an example of cyber-tongues.
Can anyone do a cuckoo clock?
No Stronger Now, sorry, but I thought it was obvious from thread precedence. This is a message from the TLIG (True Life In God) Web site.
Link to the message I posted is:
http://www.tlig.org/print/en/messages/594/
No mental breakdown in progress folks, I'm still quite lucid.
Following verse may explain why I appear so foolish to all of you.
1 Corinthians 2:14
Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.
Blessings and may Wisdom never stop teaching all of us!
Art
You are doing a great service here.
Thanks.
"peace be with you I Am Jesus..."
Are not. You're an Internet hack pretending to channel a mythical dead Jewish guy.
"I am the Hope the world is looking for..."
Hope is the denial of reality.
"I am Mercy, I am Love..."
As I've said before, love is love. A is A, and all that.
"this generation is vile, rebellious and polluted with blood, and living under Satan's shadow..."
And this is different from complaints about previous generations how, exactly?
"...You are building your expectations on mankind based on a Lie, because you believe you can accomplish everything in your own human strength..."
Hate to break it to you, dude, but that is the only way for humans to accomplish things.
"...and this is exactly what My Mother who is your Mother too is doing..."
Mary is not my mother.
"...you have industrialized My House..."
Yes, and you're using the Internet to deliver this steaming pile of crap. Pot, meet kettle.
"if I am indeed, your Master, where is My respect?"
Oo! Oo! I know this one! (gives Jesus-ghostwriter a virtual kick in the privates with Her steel-toed workshoes) 'Master'? I. Think. Not.
"if I am your God, where is My adoration and My incense?"
Your 'incense' is the stink of burning human flesh in every city ever plagued by religious violence. Breathe deep, sadistic little godlet.
"how is it that you do not believe anymore in My Marvels?"
Because they're not listed in my comic book guide?
"No, you have neither understood My Love nor the devotion you owe My Mother..."
I owe your blatant ripoff of Astarte and Isis... Nothing.
Nothing at all.
"am I to accept your persecutions over and over again?"
Your call, imaginary dude.
"I am waiting to hear you, but you are not saying what you ought to..."
How fucking dare you tell anyone what they 'ought' to do! So much for that 'free will' shit...
"I, the Lord, bless you, leaving the Sigh of My Love on your foreheads..."
Revelations 13:16, anyone?
>"I am coming to gather nation after nation and show My Holy Face to each one of you"
Hey Art, would that "gathering" include all those many millions from non-xtian nations, such as India and China, not to mention the Muslim countries etc.?
Do you plan on converting them to your Jesus delusion over-night or what?
What about all those who died who never heard of this Jesus character?
Do they get one last chance, or what?
Exactly what are your plans to make this 'miracle of miracles' happen?
(A miracle that has yet to happen in 2000 years)
How many "holy faces" does Jesus have, that he can appear to each person all over the globe, even those without TV sets?
Won't all these folks die a horrid death if they look upon that holy face?
>"you have deprived many of eating the fruits of My New Vineyards because Satan has entered you and ambushed your spirit, and lo"
Art...How many Satans are there anyway?
Just one?
Okay, so perhaps he keeps his hoards of demons busy doing this "ambushing" work instead.
So then, how many fallen angels fell from the **perfect heaven** with Satan?
Surely their must have been millions upon millions of them, enough so Satan's thoughts could enter each non-believer's body and stay there 24/7, to keep him/her from seeing your grand truth.
That's sure a whole lot of evil fallen angels, that were made by a perfect god, and fell from a perfect heaven huh.
Perhaps god changed his formula for making angels correctly, after this great fall happened?
Oh, and then of course we have to add the troops of demons being used to plant all the ungodly evolution evidence around the globe to fool all those non-believing scientist types.
How about the band of demons being used to let our spaceships fly through the solid firmament in the sky (not to mention those pesky meteorites...errr, fallen STARS) ?
What about the troops of demons who enter xtian bodies to make them sick (not to mention the one's inhabiting pigs and other farm animals)
Gosh, sure sounds like your god made a whole lot of creation mistakes by making all those fallen angels imperfectly, doesn't it.
Let me know when you're ready to show your 'holy face' to the whole planet. I'd hate to not have my camcorder ready for this grand event, ya know.
Should I pack a box-lunch to?
I'm thinking fish, with a little wine on the side.
AtheistToothFairy