I am an Agnostic
Sent in by Rip Woodward
I remember at an early age thinking of Jesus as Santa Claus. If I pray to him ,and I am good, then I will get what I want. I contemplated becoming a priest at 16. I delved into the bible and really questioned what the verses meant. I got no greater pleasure than stumping a so called "bible expert". One thing that always bothered me was the notion of G-d not being accessible to me. I had to go through his mediator, Jesus, to talk to him. It did not fit in with my belief in a loving G-d. Later in life I began to experiment with drugs and eventually developed into what most people would call a junky. One thing that drugs do well is equalize people. When you are an addict there is no better than or less than, only who has dope and who does not. To make a long story short I used for too long and eventually got clean.
I joined a program for recovering drug addicts and was given some instructions, one of which was to turn my life over to a higher power. The catch was that it has to be loving, caring, and more powerful than me. Those three requirements had me to question who G-d was. Was banishing people to a burning pit loving or caring? Was requiring me to go through a middleman loving or caring? The G-d I had grown up with in Christianity seemed a bit like an ego maniac. Like a powerful person who was insecure so he threatened people.
After much more research, including bible study, I came to one conclusion. Christianity was not G-d. Jesus was not G-d. Christianity was nothing but years of subtraction and addition done by leaders who thought their ideas would be better than the ideas before them.
The New Testament was full of contradictions and the kicker was that the so called Christ did not even fulfill all of the prophecies that the Messiah was supposed to fulfill. He was obviously not the Messiah.
Ostracized from friends and family, arguments with strangers, and feelings of loneliness were the results of my decision to move away from Christianity. Whenever the subject of Religion or G-d came up I would excuse myself from the conversation because Christians tended to be very angry and judgmental to those that don't believe like they do.
I did find G-d. I asked him to reveal himself to me as he wanted me to see him. And he did. I didn't find him in Christianity. I did not find him in phony threats of a magical place of fire called Hell. I did not even find him in new age religions. I found him exactly where he had always been. Right here inside me.
The biggest hurdle in my leaving Christianity was my fear of Hell. Ironic huh? My fear was not in not knowing Jesus, it was burning in hell. I think that is called propaganda. Didn't the Nazis use propaganda? Christianity is a far cry from Nazis but their methods of scare tactics and pressure sure are similar.
I am so glad I have left the cage of Christianity. I do not need anyone to tell me who to believe, how to believe, or when to believe. Isn't G-d powerful enough to do that on his own? I think so.
I am an Agnostic. Literally translated it means without knowledge. To me, knowledge is the attainment of information based on evidence. No one has concrete evidence of G-d. So I am without knowledge about G-d. I have some theories but they are just that, theories.
Thanks for this site. It is good to know that I am not the only one who feels the way I do about Christianity.
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I remember at an early age thinking of Jesus as Santa Claus. If I pray to him ,and I am good, then I will get what I want. I contemplated becoming a priest at 16. I delved into the bible and really questioned what the verses meant. I got no greater pleasure than stumping a so called "bible expert". One thing that always bothered me was the notion of G-d not being accessible to me. I had to go through his mediator, Jesus, to talk to him. It did not fit in with my belief in a loving G-d. Later in life I began to experiment with drugs and eventually developed into what most people would call a junky. One thing that drugs do well is equalize people. When you are an addict there is no better than or less than, only who has dope and who does not. To make a long story short I used for too long and eventually got clean.
I joined a program for recovering drug addicts and was given some instructions, one of which was to turn my life over to a higher power. The catch was that it has to be loving, caring, and more powerful than me. Those three requirements had me to question who G-d was. Was banishing people to a burning pit loving or caring? Was requiring me to go through a middleman loving or caring? The G-d I had grown up with in Christianity seemed a bit like an ego maniac. Like a powerful person who was insecure so he threatened people.
After much more research, including bible study, I came to one conclusion. Christianity was not G-d. Jesus was not G-d. Christianity was nothing but years of subtraction and addition done by leaders who thought their ideas would be better than the ideas before them.
The New Testament was full of contradictions and the kicker was that the so called Christ did not even fulfill all of the prophecies that the Messiah was supposed to fulfill. He was obviously not the Messiah.
Ostracized from friends and family, arguments with strangers, and feelings of loneliness were the results of my decision to move away from Christianity. Whenever the subject of Religion or G-d came up I would excuse myself from the conversation because Christians tended to be very angry and judgmental to those that don't believe like they do.
I did find G-d. I asked him to reveal himself to me as he wanted me to see him. And he did. I didn't find him in Christianity. I did not find him in phony threats of a magical place of fire called Hell. I did not even find him in new age religions. I found him exactly where he had always been. Right here inside me.
The biggest hurdle in my leaving Christianity was my fear of Hell. Ironic huh? My fear was not in not knowing Jesus, it was burning in hell. I think that is called propaganda. Didn't the Nazis use propaganda? Christianity is a far cry from Nazis but their methods of scare tactics and pressure sure are similar.
I am so glad I have left the cage of Christianity. I do not need anyone to tell me who to believe, how to believe, or when to believe. Isn't G-d powerful enough to do that on his own? I think so.
I am an Agnostic. Literally translated it means without knowledge. To me, knowledge is the attainment of information based on evidence. No one has concrete evidence of G-d. So I am without knowledge about G-d. I have some theories but they are just that, theories.
Thanks for this site. It is good to know that I am not the only one who feels the way I do about Christianity.
To monitor comments posted to this topic, use
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Comments
Well, gee.. that's just terrible!! How dare we treat each other equally, ya know??
Also you said, "I found him exactly where he had always been. Right here inside me."
Tell me, how's that work for ya? You got a little compartment like a kangaroo? Tell me where you live so that I might worship h-m!
~ Aurelia ~
Rip never implied that treating one another equally was an ill brought on by chemical dependence. He, in fact, was saying just the opposite; equality is the one good thing among addicts.
When he spoke of finding god inside himself he was not being literal! I interpret his statement loosely as stating he everything he sought in god was already located in his mind.
Twisting quotes for ones own purpose is a loathsome tactic of the religious right.
Can you understand this post?
And Diogenes thankyou for being able to read and comprehend. Apparently that is tough for some!
Twisting quotes for ones own purpose is a loathsome tactic of the religious right.
Can you understand this post?"
Interpreting things loosly is also a loathsome tactic of the religious right. Why do you think there are so many christian sects?
Now we have an agnostic who not only can't spell the word god, but who is convinced that it is a he, who lives inside him.
Lovely. Welcome back to church, folks. Welcome back.
~ Aurelia ~
I loosely interpreted Rip’s words because I do not, and can not know his exact meaning without him telling me. Do you honestly believe that it is never appropriate to loosely interpret anything? Are you that much of a dolt or are you just trying to pick a verbal fight?
~ Aurelia ~
(not really Anonymous since I signed my freakin' name!)
Welcome, fellow apostate, to liberation. Thank you for your testimony. I have get to give mine.
Testimonies, as I sure you’ve noticed, normally receive a warm welcome here. I don’t understand where yours went awry. I hope you find some encouragement and comradery here.
As an agnostic, I have no reason to believe in a deity and so no reason to fear spelling it as "god," "gawd," or "the mean old fairy fart in the sky." However, I understand that Rip may not really be at the agnostic stage yet and so might still be holding on to some superstitions induced by prior religious indoctrination.
In any case, Rip, I'm glad that you've started your journey.
I was agnostic for a while as well. Now it is more as an approach to new things and things to which we cannot measure yet.
I recommend reading 'The God Delusion', by Richard Dawkins. He was able to clarify my own true position by going over what we DO know and how a 50/50 (pure agnostic) position is not actually a position most agnostics hold to.
Good luck on your journey and your new found freedoms.
Just thinking. It seems like kindof a nitpicky thing to get your panties in a bunch over.
"One thing that always bothered me was the notion of G-d not being accessible to me. I had to go through his mediator, Jesus, to talk to him. It did not fit in with my belief in a loving G-d"
Rip,
Your point of needing a go-between in order to reach god's ear, was something that always bugged me as well, even in my strong christian days.
Now if one then adds in the 'saints' that some feel speak on our behalf, we would then then pray to them instead of Jesus or God and then things really start to make less sense.
Heck, some even define which saints to pray to, depending on one's particular problem or need.
[[ As a side note here, I often wondered why having a statue of a saint in one's car would offer protection from accidents etc.. Anyone have any data on how well those things work for christians.
Perhaps the insurance companies have done studies on this and any day now I'll be asked by them if I'm a believer in saints and if so, then to install such a statue in my car to get a lower rate. I do so want that lower rate...don't you ]]
How is it that god is so overwhelmed with running his custom made 6-day universe, that one almost has to have an appointment to catch his attention. That 'appointment' being Jesus or some Saint to bring our prayer to god during some possible allotted god free time. Perhaps Jesus and the saints are scheduled on his holy sabbath day, to visit with god about human prayers.
Of course, if this god is all powerful, then how could he be too busy to hear our prayers directly. Then, if he's all knowing, he would already know about our prayer to him, long before we even knew ourselves we were going to be praying for a particular thing.
Then you have to wonder as well, how is it possible for god to change his answer to us, just because a third-party like Jesus or some saint, went to god on our behalf.
Does god really change his mind under such circumstances and if he does, then this creates another huge problem with our understanding of what god is suppose to be.
Does god actually need time to ponder our request from him and if he does, doesn't that mean god has a limitation that he shouldn't have?
Moving on now..........
Rip said:
"The New Testament was full of contradictions and the kicker was that the so called Christ did not even fulfill all of the prophecies that the Messiah was supposed to fulfill."
Rip, I find it interesting that you seem to have lost faith in just Jesus, and part of losing that faith seems to be from you taking note of new testament contradictions.
You do seem to imply that you still have faith in god, but yet you do not make mention of the old testament's plethora of contradictions as well.
Could it be that you are unaware of these contradictions or is it because your belief in some god today, just has nothing to do with the god of the old testament anymore?
You say that you found god "inside you".
Should we assume that the god you now believe in, is one that has nothing to do with the bible, or any other book-of-god, but is a more personal god that is made in some image that only you understand about him etc.?
Your hurdle of the hell belief is one very common to those leaving the 'fold'.
Doesn't it make perfect sense that if you want to hold onto your followers, and fear that they might have doubts at times, especially about things like magical stories and those many contradictions, that one has a back-up plan in place to help keep you from leaving.
That back up plan of course if the hell-fire plan. A plan that we are brainwashed early on in life and therefore, most of us have a tough time pushing it aside, even when our intellect has already realized the rest of the bible preaching's are ridiculous in nature.
As far as the flack you've gotten here so far goes, let me say this to you.....
You made a big oops in showing your fear of writing the word GOD; each and every time to.
Many fundie types exhibit this fear as you can see by reading thru this site.
For some reason they think that god's name is actually "G O D" and that he will punish them for spelling out his 'name'.....especially in the context of this site's anti-god agenda.
Of course, as has been explained on this site (probably many times I bet), G O D is not a proper name, anymore than KING or QUEEN would be.
Ahh, but the fact that you are writing a testimony, which is normally used to show one's path from being a Christian to a NON-Christian, you clearly show this fear of spelling out GOD, that greatly implies to the reader that you still not only believe in (christian?) god, but still greatly fear him and thus, are not really an ex-christian, YET.
I'll bet a donut that if you hadn't spelt god as G-d, you would have gotten far less flack from your testimony.
So Rip, I bet you could make some brownie points here with the members, just by adding a comment where you actually type out "god" several times and show us you have put that old fear behind you.
How about it Rip....Can you do it????
AtheistToothFairy
Constructive - Instructive. You have me curious. I've seen others use g-d, and thought little of it. (Though it seemed somewhat suspicious)
Rip,
What’s the story? Don’t sweat it too badly if AtheistToothFairy is correct in his assertions. You’ll get past this. Blasphemies will increasingly make you cringe less and less. [sic] Just don’t backslide on us. ;-)
Thank you for your post. I enjoyed reading it.
How you spell the word god and whether, why, and what you believe is irrelevant to me.
When I was a Christian, it bothered me that I was expected to preach the gospel to anyone who didn't believe the way I did. Now as an ex-christian, I enjoy the fact that I can let others believe whatever they want without feeling that I have to judge them or to point out the error of their ways.
Since my initial de-conversion, I have been on a journey to discover what it is that I want to believe. Many want me to embrace their ideas, but I relish in the freedom I now have to think and trust whatever I want.
No longer being afraid of hell, I experience freedom to do, go, think, and believe whatever I choose. Letting others hold up their own credo is also part of my newly found independence.
Rip, you sound like a person who is willing to stand up for your truth--your very own. That truth is going to change with time. And I know you are ready to chase your evolving philosophy where ever it may take you.
Good for you!
In addition to your reason sited, I also saw where some jews wrote it this G-d way, so they could eventually burn the piece of paper it was written upon, otherwise having GOD written on the paper, the paper itself then becomes too holy to burn et.
I also found this bit of interesting Islam information below....
From:
http://www.nurallah.org/IslamInAmerica.htm
"NOTE: The spelling of G-d for “god” is used for when referencing or mentioning our Creator to avoid the spelling “God”, which in reverse spells “Dog”. We feel that it is disrespectful to have a spelling for our Creator that reminds the reader of a dog. Surely our Creator is GREATER!"
------
So it seems that both the Muslims and Jews each have their own superstitions about spelling out GOD.
While that explains why each of them do this, I now wonder how some christians adopted this oddity (fear) in their own writings.
Ahhhh.... superstitions........Gotta love em.....
Oops, just dropped my mirror....guess I'm in for 7 years of bad luck.
Does anyone know if GOD can supercede the penalty of a busted shiny object....aka mirror. Surely he can fix this huge problem for me, yes?
AtheistToothFairy
Spelling G-D this way to protect yourself won't help anyway. I mean you are speiling your NON belief of God and Jesus on a EX - Christian website ! Don't you think God's gonna notice that? I don't think by spelling G-D in this way would help you out, that is, if there is a special G-D. He be pissed off already 'cause your here in the first place.
For the positive people and ones who gave constructive criticism, I thankyou for your warm welcome. As for G-d. I am able to spell. see. GOD god. -od. go-. it doesnt matter. I prefer to spell it the way I spell it because that is the way I spell it. Thankyou though for your kindness.
And Aurelia. You lovely person. Thankyou for your positive comments that help me to know myself better. Yes, I have a kangaroo pouch where I keep G-d. He/she/it hang outs there everyday. He/she/it is transgendered. Does that make you feel better? Would it make you feel better if I told you I was crying? Perhaps I will let you get a mental image of me crying as to help you sleep better at night. If you want to tear apart something, like my ex-christian testimony, go tear apart your feelings of innadequacy (sp?) and feeling lesser than. Perhaps then you will understand why you feel the need to berate others. have a nice day!
Great post!
I was in exactly the same position. It was such a relief to find out it's all bullshit.
Don't feel too put off by some of the insensitivity shown above. There are people here (like me) who still have issues over the whole 'god' thing (I still find myself questioning whether or not iI'll give it a capital, or put it in quotes, etc... lol) and it doesn't take much to set some people off.
Yes, this is a safe place for you.
Don't mind the challengers, they're just sniffing you out. It's the watchdogs we have here who keep it so safe... ;)
I am an agnostic in the same way that Bertrand Russell was an agnostic. Although i cannot prove that there's no teapot orbiting between here and Mars, i can certainly conclude that such a hypothesis is ridiculous.
I am an agnostic in the same way that Douglas Adams was an agnostic. Although i cannot prove that there are no faeries at the bottom of my garden, i do not need to equivocate on their nonexistence to appreciate the garden's beauty.
I am an agnostic in the same way that Richard Dawkins is an agnostic. Although i don't know for sure that there is no god, i can still form a tentative conclusion, based on the evidence, that the odds are incalculably tiny that there is any such animal. To turn the apologists' own words against them, i do not have enough faith to believe that a hurricane can blow through a junkyard and assemble God.
_________________
Nonetheless, i still see a teapot among the stars of Sagittarius, the centaur archer. (I don't believe in centaurs either, although i have seen real live archers with my own eyes.) I still have a fondness for illustrations of faeries. I still enjoy Greek mythology, several of the Bible myths, and religious music. I really don't care how Rip spells "G-d," and i don't see why anyone else other than God Himself should care either.
Good luck with your deconversion. Like J.C. said, not all exchristians are Atheists. While I ultimately ending up an agnostic non-believer(Athiest), my very first few years after divorcing "Christ" were spent as an agnostic believer(Deist), then later still, an agnostic Pantheist(i.e.."Nature" is "God")
To arrive where I did, I came to the conclusion that if god/God/G-d/gawd was not a personal "being"; if this "thing" didn't have a vested interest in humankind, then I wouldn't waste another second of my life wishing, hoping, or believing that "it" was such a "being". Hell, I'd already wasted enough time as a Christian. In any event, doing what works for you, while keeping an objective mind is the key.
And about the spelling of god, lol... of course, spell it how you please, but bare in mind that most of the time when people spell the word god, "G-d", it's done out of superstition, tradition, or in accordance with one's religious beliefs....or, all of the above. That said, when you run across people who aren't superstitious; who aren't traditionalist; who aren't religious, you run the risk of getting confronted on it.
Good luck,
Boom'
G-d is transgendered? You just made my day, thanks!
~ Aurelia ~
I can trace my progression through most of Richard Dawkins's 7 levels of belief (taken from The God Delusion).
1. Strong theist: "I do not believe, i know." I was here most of my life. In retrospect, a completely unreasonable position.
2. De facto theist: "I can't know for certain, but i strongly believe in God and live my life on that assumption." I remember the night i became an agnostic Christian, though i didn't know about agnosticism at the time. An atheist sprang his version of Carl Sagan's dragon on me, forcing me to realize that i had no grounds for certainty. A few years later, i was asked if i would continue to believe if science proved that God does not exist. I reluctantly admitted that i would have to go with the evidence. I get the impression, now, that that was a highly unusual admission for a Christian.
3. Agnostic, leaning towards theism. During early 2005, i was fast reaching the conclusion that my sect, the Roman Catholic Church, had seriously lost touch with reality. I was still a committed Catholic, though, because i remember accepting, with disappointment, the Rottweiler's election as pope.
4. Completely impartial agnostic. How i spent the summer of 2005. An extremely uncomfortable place, as i was just enough on the edge to worry about Pascal's blackmail. As i was questioning the existence of God himself, Protestantism or other religions were not on the table.
5. Agnostic, leaning towards atheism. While Hurricane Katrina was strengthening the faith of the people of Stockho... er, New Orleans, she made mincemeat of mine. Near this time, i stopped attending mass.
6. De facto atheist: "I can't know for certain, but i don't believe God exists, and live my life on that assumption." Less than 2 weeks after Katrina, my deconversion was complete. In Dawkins's words, "I am agnostic only to the extent that i am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden."
The whole faith house of cards had collapsed so quickly it made my head spin.
7. Strong atheist: "I know that God does not exist." If i ever reach this stage, someone please bop me on the head.
If asked if i'm a Spinozan pantheist, i won't deny it. If you define God as an abstraction of nature, then of course i believe. However, i don't find this a useful notion. I'm an atheist, and i'm not going to tiptoe around that.
Well, on that note, I suppose that I know God doesn't exist("7. Strong atheist"), but "only" to the extent that I know there are no fairies at the bottom of the garden. Since there "might be" fairies in the garden that are so small that even an atomic-force microscope cannot detect them, then I suppose that I remain Atheist by choice; Agnostic by default.
If I hold the word "faerie", as an idea reliably (consistently) and with validity (mental form/idea), then I must assert that the "identity" of said faerie, is a mental abstraction, only.
I'm an atheist, because the word "God" has no identity, beyond my mind. It's a word without an "identity", and is only a mental abstraction.
That being said, my philosophy, is not dependent on a theist, nor on religious doctrine, nor one of religious authority. I "validate" my own position, only I, can vouche for my knowledge.
The day someone gives "identity" to the word God, that we can share, will be the day that the word "God" is given "form" within Nature. The best one can do, is produce a Natural God form, and to me, I don't see the notion useful either.
Therefore, atheism for me, is not a choice, it's not a rebuttal to the irrational theist, it's based on the knowledge I have obtained on my journey in life.
Can there be a God? I dunno, I suppose someone has to give that word an "identity" before the word has any merit. I know that word has zero merit or identity to be of any use - for me.
This would include the mental tools that i use to determine what i "know."
Rather tough circle to escape.
That's why on those occasions that i call myself a strong atheist, i always state what sort of god i'm denying. (BTW, the definition that i learned of "strong atheist" is one who asserts the nonexistence of God--which is not the same as how Professor Dawkins used the term above.) Atheism is simply the absence of a claim, which concept wouldn't even exist if it weren't for intolerant theists. Strong atheism, therefore, is dependent on the claim that is being actively denied, and that requires someone's definition of "God."
I call myself a strong atheist w.r.t. Yahweh, but a weak atheist w.r.t. the god of deism, for example.
"I know that i am fallible."
I know that I may be mistaken in my conclusion as to the nonexistence of God, but only to the extent that I may be mistaken in my conclusion as to the nonexistence of fairies in the garden.
In any event, Atheism is about lack of belief; it isn't a proclamation that "God does not exist". It is Agnosticism that usually deals with "knowledge".
It Does not equal Atheist. I could have converted to scientology, Judaism, Muslim, buddhism, or Taoism.
Perhaps some of the more rabid Ex X-tian fundies on here could look at their comments and ask themselves does this hurt this site and our members or does this help? Stop being douchebags. Kindness goes a long way.
Excellent, we're off to a great start then, as most of the Christians who stumble in here never ever get that part.
It[ex-christian] Does not equal Atheist.
Who said it does?
Anony': I could have converted to scientology, Judaism, Muslim, buddhism, or Taoism.
Right, or Jainism, or perhaps even Raëlism. As it happens though, the majority of deconverts don't go from one religion straight to another. Regardless, there's no "pattern", as people get their individualism back after leaving the Christian faith, which, said faith is anti-individual, for the most part.
Anony': Perhaps some of the more rabid Ex X-tian fundies on here could look at their comments and ask themselves does this hurt this site and our members or does this help?
The site's main purpose is available right over the blogger window where you typed your last comment. In any event, it's been my experience that the tone of most of the out-going comments here is dictated in accordance with the tone that's given off by the visitor, who more often than not, are Christians. And again, most of which, cannot even make it past your very first statement about what "Ex-christian" means. If I'm not mistaken, I think your complaint is that there should be more diplomacy? Well, diplomacy is about listening, as well as speaking.
That said, when Christians bring their "one-size-fits-all" mentality in here and make zero attempt to understand our position, and thus, their usual resort is to bludgeon us to death with their position, and/or, merely affirm the consequence, then it becomes frustrating, and often times sarcasm becomes a necessary tool in getting our point across. For instance, *hypothetically*, if the first thing out of your mouth was that everyone here is ignorant, then you shouldn't expect to get treated with kid gloves. 'Make sense?
Anony': Stop being douchbags. Kindness goes a long way.
I see. So if kindness "goes a long way", I guess you won't expect to get too far calling people douchbags.