Those EVIL secular humanists!

Sent in by Jamie G

Years ago I remember sitting in a church service. It wasn't different than any other church service I had been to, but I was introduced to a term, and a group of people, I had never heard of before..... secular humanists. The way the preacher was talking you would have thought there was some huge underground conspiracy ran by these people to take over the world and set themselves up as God. For a long time I believed, because it never crossed my mind to look it up for myself, that secular humanists believed they were each gods, like some kind of new age woowoo.

Living in my small town I had never met anyone who flat out blatantly denied being a Christian, or didn't believe in God. I met Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Catholics, and I thought this was diversity, but to go to college and actually meet Wiccans, Muslims, Buddhists....and the dreaded ATHEIST and secular humanist was almost too much for me.

While in high school I did spend one school year studying tons of various Christian denominations and other world religions. I find it funny that I never thought to find out what a secular humanist was.

But now I know. And now that I know, I wish I would have known a long time ago. And if you don't know, here are a few things that secular humanists believe:

Secular humanism describes a world view with the following elements and principles:

* Need to test beliefs - A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

* Reason, evidence, scientific method - Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.

* Fulfillment, growth, creativity - A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.

* Search for truth - A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

* This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.

* Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.

* Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves.

Now that last section is straight copied from Wikipedia. There was nothing about Satan, or worshiping demons.... nothing about sacrificing children or having sex with goats. In the past few months I have learned more about what secular humanism, freethought, and atheism than I did as a Christian. It turns out it isn't as bad as I heard guys like Pat Robertson or Hal Lindsay said it was. It also goes to show that it IS possible to be a productive and ethical individual without a Sky Daddy watching over my shoulder to keep me in line. Isn't it more noble to live without compulsion and fear of condemnation? I say yes.

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41 comments:

Ray said...

For starters,this is exactly what a recovering fundamentalist should not become: an anti-fundamentalist fundamentalist. Anti-theists (and I do not necessarily mean atheists here) are often what I call “dry fundamentalists“—folks who refuse to do the hard work of leaving the pain of fundamentalism behind, opting instead to get stuck railing against their past.

http://atheist-stooges.com

Anonymous said...

Ray,

Who are you to decide what and what not a person should become after Christianity?

It is non of your business.

Secular Humanists mind their own business. They don't go around preaching or giving out tracts. They welcome anyone who wants to think for themselves. That's all.

Leaving Christianity is a painful process, and every person follows--or should follow--their process.

It is about finding OUR OWN way and being ourselves.

Lorena
(A FREE thinker, non-secular humanist)

twincats said...

Ray, what are you talking about? What does your post have to do with secular humanism?

And as for "...the hard work of leaving fundamentalism behind..." who are you to tell people how to go about this 'hard work'? Everyone has his or her own way of dealing with these things.

If you are one of these people and this site doesn't do it for you, go elsewhere and stop criticizing how people deal with their personal pain.

wasxn said...

To see where Rays is coming from , I went to his website, and found the "love of God" expressed as follows (direct quote):

"Atheists are not fit to be parents; they are not fit to be employed in any portion of any society; they are not fit to be any kind of leaders in any society, nor are they fit to serve in any area of public trust. Atheism makes every person who embraces it unfit for any good work.

Atheists are not even fit to live. They have forfeited the right to life by virtue of being unfit for any good thing.

The decline or absence of morals in any society can be traced to atheism or the like. All the problems in every facet of society the world over can be traced to atheism, or denial of God and disobedience to him. The rapid increase in crime the world over can be traced to the same. Atheism has nothing good to offer any society.

Atheism is so heinous and does so much harm that there is desperate need for legislation against it. It is not an ideology, philosophy or demonic religion which should be allowed to exist and flourish in any society. Every atheist should be regarded as high criminals by all governments who have no right to live on the earth."

wasxn said...

To see where Rays is coming from , I went to his website, and found the "love of God" expressed as follows (direct quote):

"Atheists are not fit to be parents; they are not fit to be employed in any portion of any society; they are not fit to be any kind of leaders in any society, nor are they fit to serve in any area of public trust. Atheism makes every person who embraces it unfit for any good work.

Atheists are not even fit to live. They have forfeited the right to life by virtue of being unfit for any good thing.

The decline or absence of morals in any society can be traced to atheism or the like. All the problems in every facet of society the world over can be traced to atheism, or denial of God and disobedience to him. The rapid increase in crime the world over can be traced to the same. Atheism has nothing good to offer any society.

Atheism is so heinous and does so much harm that there is desperate need for legislation against it. It is not an ideology, philosophy or demonic religion which should be allowed to exist and flourish in any society. Every atheist should be regarded as high criminals by all governments who have no right to live on the earth."

twincats said...

Looks like Ray is the hit n' run type of ignorant knee-jerk, atheist-hating jesus cult members.

It's not bad enough that his imaginary sky-daddy will punish all of the atheists/pagans/other non-christobots in his hell for all eternity, he wants to send us all there ASAP.

We will know they are Christians by their love, indeed!

Dylan said...

after reading a few pages of RAY's website....this guys retoric sounds about the same as the stuff Nazis used to use against the jews. People like this are the lowest form of life on the planet...I'd rather have a nice Ebola virus visit my house than this guy.

Chucky Jesus said...

Wow, a Xian hypocrite (Ray); how original!!

Evidently it's ok for him to bash atheists, but no ok for atheists to criticize Christians or Christianity; if we do, we're "an anti-theist fundamentalist."

Can you say, "What a croc?"

BTW, Ray, while you're busy keeping your hands together and mumbling to nobody in particular, we atheists will up and busy helping humanity:

http://www.atheistvolunteers.org/

Dave8 said...

Ray: "Anti-theists (and I do not necessarily mean atheists here) are often what I call “dry fundamentalists“

Ray, can you please elaborate on the duality here, I need some research fodder. When you mentally picture a "juicy" fundamentalist, who comes to mind, and what are your expectations?

Anonymous said...

No sex with goats? Darn! I was so looking forward to the secular humanist goat love pride parade this summer.

Fed Up With Christians said...

Funny how Ray doesn't have the guts to come back here and reply to all of the other replies.

Just like all other chritians, he runs and hides like the coward he is.

Thank you Ray for once again making your "Christian Cult" look really bad.

I'm sure that "Jesus Koresh" would be very proud of you.

Telmi said...

Ray,

You sound like a kiddo who is just learning how to suck eggs. You sure have a long, long way to go before reaching the "age of reason". In the meantime, keep learning.

UnBlinded said...

Hey "Fed up with christians",

"Just like all other chritians, he runs and hides like the coward he is."

It's not very nice to generalize this way. Some of us Christians have tried at length to have intelligent conversations with some of you. It all too often ends up with some kind of frenzied attack where common sense gets thrown out the window. A prime example of the nonsensical replies that often ensue would be BoomSLANG and Dave8's final posts in the "I never chose to lose my religion" thread....among many others. With replies like that, do you actually wonder why we leave?

Now, to be clear, the objective of this post was to just give my 2 cents to "Fed up with christians" on how he/she is making too big a generalization that's is also somewhat rude. Please, no need to get all angry and frenzied.

To be fair, I don't particularly agree with Ray's fly-by post but I'll have to join him today. Too busy with work.

Have a nice day,
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/

Jim Arvo said...

Marc (aka "UnBlinded"),

I see you still feel you have something to contribute here (which, frankly, perplexes me). Allow me to redirect your criticism back at you. You too are guilty of the most crass generalization by your assertions that all non-Christians are lacking in moral guidance (as you've implied elsewhere), and (presumably) are destined for eternal torment. Is that not a sweeping generalization, based solely on one's theological opinions?

While I agree that not all Christians "run and hide", as "Fed up with Christians" has suggested, it is absolutely the case that the majority of them who visit this site show no capacity or inclination for entering into a meaningful dialog. Nearly all simply refuse to answer questions that are put to them, or refuse to examine why they believe what they believe, or refuse to offer any rationale at all for why we too should adopt their beliefs. In that sense, most of them do indeed "run and hide". And yes, this applies especially to you. There's no need to rehash that, is there? Anybody who has read your numerous posts in other threads knows where you stand: You "trust" certain "witnesses" and doctrines because... well... because you trust them. You cannot accept the findings of science with regard to evolution because... well... because you will never believe them. That's about as far as we ever got--that, and a brief excursion into Behe's pseudo-science, in which you essentially ignored everything we said. A scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail comes to mind: "Run away! Run away!".

I know what you're thinking: "How can that guy criticize me for continuing to post here while also accusing me of running away?!" Here is your answer. Your shallow comments (not to mention your arrogance--viz "UnBlinded") are of no use here precisely because all you do is "run away" from the arguments. You trust because you trust. You believe because you believe. That's running away intellectually. Now, if you could simply be consistent and run away physically, it might make all our lives a little more pleasant. Capiche?

Good day.

boomSLANG said...

Unblinded: Some of us Christians have tried at length to have intelligent conversations with some of you.

Could you kindly reference the pro-Christian side of just one of these "intelligent conversations" for my benefit? If not, could you leave(again)?

Unblinded: It all too often ends up with some kind of frenzied attack where common sense gets thrown out the window.

Yes, common sense. Well, just for starters, "common sense" says that snakes, shrubberies, and domestic jackasses don't speak Hebrew(Although, I've seen a few minister in English)

Unblinded: A prime example of the nonsensical replies that often ensue would be BoomSLANG and Dave8's final posts in the "I never chose to lose my religion" thread....among many others.

Yes, "nonsensical". 'Tell ya what there, Mr. 'Blinded......I'm going to go out on a limb and say that every single reply that disagrees with your apologetic rhetoric might seem "nonsensical"...to you(hint hint?)

Now, if I'm wrong, then please provide me with just one pro-atheist reply that you feel is NOT "nonsensical". Yes, do that, and then tell us in concise launguage if it is "lacking", and why, in your "humble" opinion. Waiting.

Unblinded: With replies like that, do you actually wonder why we leave?

LMAO! For the love of gAWD, man!!...what's the alternative? How 'bout---"Please, please, Mr./Mrs. Christian.....pleeeeeeze stick around and dazzle us with your regurgitated unproven religious dogma on a daily basis......pleeeeze?"(that's sarcasm, BTW)

To be fair, I don't particularly agree with Ray's fly-by post but I'll have to join him today. Too busy with work.

Um, how 'bout "work" on some O-B-J-E-C-T-I-V-E evidence for your belief ?

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm

http://www.yourgodisimaginary.com/

http://garbanzo-bean-salad.com/

God 'less!

UnBlinded said...

Jim said: "Here is your answer. Your shallow comments (not to mention your arrogance--viz "UnBlinded") are of no use here precisely because all you do is "run away" from the arguments. You trust because you trust. You believe because you believe. That's running away intellectually."

Running away intellectually is believing in Darwinian evolution when it's nothing but theory, and a weak one at that...

Just because you see adaptive capabilities in the world, all of you make that giant leap of logic and poof, evolution! So tell me, where are all those intermediary stages of humanity between the monkey and human? Oh, yes...natural selection. Only the "fittest" survived so all those millions of variations between the monkey and humans are just gone. Snatched up by natural selection. I mean, try to remember your theory, random processes of mutation....these tiny little changes, there going to take quite a while to generate a new species, wouldn't you think. You might have expected a slew of intermediary species, no? None, nota.

Disregard evolution for a moment because we all know that the God of the bible could do anything, even guide evolution if He wanted. How about the 70,000 witnesses to the miracle of the sun at Fatima....just a collective hypnotic state induced by...what, the food? Yes, 4 years of shared visions in Garabandal by 4 manipulative little girls that never relented on their "lie".

You want me to go away, no chance. I'll still pop up once in a while hoping that God has opened your eyes.

You think this is fun, this is a joke, think again Jim.

With regards to your comment: "You too are guilty of the most crass generalization by your assertions that all non-Christians are lacking in moral guidance (as you've implied elsewhere), and (presumably) are destined for eternal torment. "

I have never, repeat never said that anyone is absolutely destined for hell. The most I would have said is that we all have the ability to choose separation from God, or not. God is coming to all of us like a beggar and in His immense mercy and love, He'll take us into His family on our death beds, regardless of the life we lead. I wouldn't recommend counting on this opportunity though, we all know that He can come like a thief.... Only God knows our eternal destiny and make no mistake about it, at the end of it all we are all going to be in one of two places....forever.

So yes, if it pleases you, do run and hide behind your theories but realize that they'll only provide cover while you're alive. Maybe while you're hiding behind there trembling with fear, you'll find the humility to acknowledge and accept being agnostic. From agnosticism...maybe God will take that small offering and give you the grace necessary to recognize that we are all very little specs in His universe, "specs" that He loves dearly.

Blessings,
Marc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/

Wes said...

Wow, Marc - you could never sound more like a raving angry lunatic than you just did! Bravo! -Wes.

Wes said...

"Disregard evolution for a moment because we all know that the God of the bible could do anything..."

I like that one. We all know? We ALL know? How the hell do we ALL know? What, because your religion tells us? Because you tell us? Because your bible says so?? WHERE'S THE FRIKKIN' PROOF in all of it?? Marc, YOU HAVEN'T PROVED A GOD DAMNED THING. All you do is bark the same old garbage that we've all heard before- "God can do anything! God can do anything!" ...and here's Marc: "And I don't have to do anything to back my assertions! Blah blah fucking blah!! My God is gonna get you! Run and hide!"

Yeesh.

Marc, you are being an ass. What the hell do you expect to accomplish here?!? What have you said that we haven't heard a million times before? All we're doing is asking YOU to PROVE YOUR CASE. And you CAN'T. So all you do is have a hissy fit because we can't accept your belief structure. That is so typical. Either get some decent material that irrefutably supports your position, or GET LOST.

"You think this is fun, this is a joke, think again Jim."

No; we think YOU'RE the joke. We didn't at first, but by now, no one here can take you seriously. I can't. You just sound like a pouty little kid.

"You want me to go away, no chance. I'll still pop up once in a while hoping that God has opened your eyes."

Let's test that theory, shall we? I for one support an IP block.

-Wes.

J. C. Samuelson said...

Marc,

You go on and believe what you like. We've long since ceased to take you seriously here. Several of us have debated with you, giving you plenty of room to make your arguments and to address them seriously on multiple threads, but you have shown yourself to be unable (or perhaps, unwilling) to think clearly about the issues that have been raised.

The fact of the matter is that you don't really care what evidence there is. You've said so quite clearly. More than once, as a matter of fact. I, for one, will no longer engage you in a serious dialogue. You have nothing to learn, because you already know it all. Your alleged reading of books that challenge your beliefs is nothing more than window dressing, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you've just been picking book titles off websites (such as Amazon) to try and give yourself some credibility.

The long and short of it is that the longer you post here, the more shrill you become, and although you are quite the little annoyance, ironically you also serve as a reminder of the lunacy that sometimes affects the minds of believers. So, by all means, keep posting as long as the WM allows. You're doing a great job of reinforcing the decision to leave Christianity for good.

UnBlinded said...

Indeed, I've surrendered to impatience. Clearly I've browsed this site too much and have lost temperance for the lunacy that I read.

My sincere apologies for the tone but I still stand by the post's content. If you want to claim to be so intelligent (as Jim claims) but fail to ignore that everything you believe in hinges on wild theories...so be it.

God knows I tried to cry out in the middle of this wilderness. I guess I'll stick prayer, it'll certainly be more effective.

Blessings,
Marc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/

alanh said...

Marc wrote:

So yes, if it pleases you, do run and hide behind your theories but realize that they'll only provide cover while you're alive. Maybe while you're hiding behind there trembling with fear, you'll find the humility to acknowledge and accept being agnostic.

Aren't you judging Jim? Won't god send you to hell for that?

Wes said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun

Scroll down,
scroll down,
scroll down...

"See Also:"
1...
2...
3...
"Mass Hallucination"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hallucination

Dave8 said...

Marc: "If you want to claim to be so intelligent (as Jim claims) but fail to ignore that everything you believe in hinges on wild theories...so be it."

I believe, or am of the opinion, that you exist; but I suppose that is a wild theory as well. If you validate that you exist; you must accept that all I had to go on were the words on this blog from you. Thus, your words are truly your intellectual fingerprint in ether. And so, my final theory for the night with you, will be... that you are not well educated... and it’s as equally valid as the "fact" that you exist.

Oh, and do try to prove you exist; it will only bolster the claim of your ignorance. Ciao

boomSLANG said...

Unblinded: If you want to claim to be so intelligent (as " " claims) but fail to ignore that everything you believe in hinges on wild theories...so be it.

"Wild" theories? LMAO! Umm, wild like whAT, exactly?...wild like, uh, "Atomic theory"? Yes, particle physics is just a "hunch". And that flimsy gravitational "theory"?.. boy-o-boy, thAT went over like a lead zepplin, didn't it? 'Stupid scientists!

But for those willing to actually listen---in scientific and mathematical study, a "theory" is NOT just a "guess". Evolution is both theory and fact. "Creation", on the other hand, is NEITHER theory, NOR fact. Moreover---even IF you could "prove" evolution completely false, it would not make "creation" a valid explanation by default. "GOD DID IT!" is NOT an "answer". It only leads to question begging.

Unblinded: I guess I'll stick prayer, it'll certainly be more effective.

Oh for the love of sh*t, YES! Please do "stick prayer". We can see how it's so "effective", after all, you've been loitering on this very site and "praying" your apologetic fanny off(combined with the prayers of THOUSANDS more Xians), and just look at all of us who've reconverted back to Christianity. Exactly NONE. Yes, by all means, stay down on your knees.(so hopefully, you can't reach your PC key board)

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm
http://www.yourgodisimaginary.com/
http://garbanzo-bean-salad.com/

God 'less!

Jim Arvo said...

Lovely, Marc. You outdid yourself. You remind me of a child who answers his tormentors with "You too!"

In keeping with your voluminous comments in other threads, you once again show that you have not even a tenuous grasp of the theory you so strenuously attack (i.e. evolution), and you're not about to let anybody enlighten you. As I said before, that's all fine, Marc. But it does mean that you have zero credibility here. And it also means that any effort expended toward untangling your convoluted reasoning is time wasted. So I'm going to let your criticism of evolution stand in all it's naked glory; it's a great example of what happens when one decides to reject and idea based on emotional or dogmatic criteria rather than reason.

By the way, there is a name for your position on evolution, and no, I don't mean "creationism". It's called invincible ignorance. In fact, this applies to your reasoning in general, not just to your arguments against evolution. This is another manifestation of how you run away from arguments; you simply don't want to know about any evidence that may weaken your position (e.g. supporting evolution or suggesting the unreliability of the Pope or the gospels or miracle accounts).

Anyway, I've already wasted far too much of my time responding to your posts.

dano said...

Marc,
I know you don't like me because I am sarcastic toward your beliefs, and I don't care much for you because of your unrelenting sanctimony.

What i want to convey to you today is this: All of your Pope, saint, Our Lady of the (fill in the blank with your favorite), miracle sightings, and Catholic crap, appears to most of us here on ex-Christian, to equate to, or be on par with, the guy who wears his hat backwards, his crotch down around his ankles, and earrings in his nose, eyebrows, lips, etc.
DON'T YOU KNOW HOW STUPID IT LOOKS?
Dan

Jim Arvo said...

Dano,

You just hit upon something that always perplexes me; how is it that believers can so rarely appreciate how their claims appear from another perspective irrespective of their actual validity? Here's what I mean: Suppose you open the door to your refrigerator one day, and there before you, sitting atop the mayonnaise jar, is a magic frog. He unequivocally demonstrates his powers by granting you three wishes, yada yada yada. It's by far the most amazing that has ever happened to you, yet the magic frog left no doubt that he was real. Question: How do you relate this unlikely and crazy-sounding incident to the rest of the world? Do you

A) Run up to total strangers and say "There was a magic frog atop my mayonnaise jar this morning..." and then become indignant when people don't believe you, or

B) Think long and hard about how to provide compelling evidence, recognizing that rational people will otherwise have no way to distinguish your story from the rantings of a lunatic?

It seems that the vast majority of the Christians who visit this site would opt for the first approach. Yet, even if what they say is 100% true, it would be borderline insanity to assume that everyone will believe them, would it not? Even if you had incontrovertible proof of the magic frog, it seems to me that a rational person would not take the first approach. Why is it that so many visitors here cannot make this connection: even if what they say is true, that alone is insufficient to convince anybody. Is this nothing more than an inability to appreciate different points of view that are, nevertheless, rational? I'd love to hear an explanation for this phenomenon.

franknhonest said...

Marc - so God is some almighty beggar is he? Who's really acting like God here? If you think you're right, you're heading for the fire, heretic!

UnBlinded said...

Jim said: "You remind me of a child who answers his tormentors with "You too!""

Speaking from experience! ;) No, you're not a sinner, just a curious person...that happened to evolved that way.

Make no mistake about it, He still loves all of you beyond human comprehension, you're just choosing not to love Him. Pity...

Blessings,
Marc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/

eel_shepherd said...

UnBlinded wrote:
"...Yes, 4 years of shared visions in Garabandal by 4 manipulative little girls that never relented on their `lie'..."

What do a whole lot of teenage girls, especially ones living in some superstitious Catholic (redundancy?) backwater in Spain, crave more than just about anything? Give you a hint: It's a 9-letter word beginning with A-T-T-E-N-T-I-O-_.

With regard to the paucity of transitional forms culminating, so far, in homo sapiens, a few points. One is that, however often Xtians try to perpetuate the story that humans evolved from chimps, they are the only ones keeping that concept going. The one that the rest of the world concerns itself with is that the humans and the chimps diverged evolutionarily from a common ancestor (so, just so you don't lose count, that's a total of three [3] creatures).

Also, on the time scales that evolution normally operates in, the ascent of the humans can best be described as meteoric; the reason being that the main selection criterion for survival was intelligence. Once brain power became The Best Coupon Of All, the ones who can't keep up drop out of the gene pool very quickly by being undesirable mates, or are killed off by the ones more able to evolve better wholesale killing techniques and devices. (ref: yer Old Testament...)

A question for you, UnBlinded: You are aware that the pope is not a big Garabandal fan; and that he used to be, before he got the job of CEO, the head guy in whatever the Grand Inquisitor's job-title got renamed to. The guy who has the last word in what gets to be an article of faith. If he showed up in town, and someone pointed you out to him as a person promoting the Garabandal non-miracle, and he told you to stop it, what would you do?

UnBlinded said...

Hi Eel_sheperd,

Eel said: "(so, just so you don't lose count, that's a total of three [3] creatures)."

You're missing the point of your theory. There's absolutely no way you get only 3 creatures. You evovled, remember? At some point, the human species had to be in a "ever-so-slightly", less evolved state. And that evolved state had to be in an ever-so-slightly, less evolved state. Etc... You're missing a whole lot of evolved states.

If the Congregation For The Doctrine of The Faith issued a condemnation of Garabandal, I would need to turn away from this revelation. Same reason I have no idea how many more children we'll end up having.

Cheers,
Marc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/

Jim Arvo said...

Marc, it's a pity you don't have Google on your machine. You would quite quickly find

Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ, and

A response to a common creationist claim...

and dozens of others. Exploring the first link a bit further, you'll find

Fossil Hominids

which contains...

Hominid Species

But then, I strongly suspect you actually have no interest in reading about the various hominid species that have been identified thus far. Once again, your ploy has a name: it's called invincible ignorance. If you insist on pestering us, you will no doubt prove to us yet again that evidence means absolutely nothing to you. You apparently have made no effort to locate any of the relevant scientific findings on your own, and will find any excuse to brush aside all the scientific evidence that is put in front of you. Another instance of intellectual dishonesty.

For the benefit of others here (as I suspect that Marc will lose interest long before reaching this), I'd recommend the following link, it's quite a nice survey:

Taxonomy, Transitional Forms, and the Fossil Record

Jim Arvo said...

Why do I keep responding to this guy? Sheesh.

.:webmaster:. said...

Whatever happened to those girls on whom Marc rests his faith?

Conchita lost faith in her visions, feeling it was all a dream. The village priest sent her to the bishop, who simply advised her not to talk further about the apparitions. She decided to leave the village, feeling she could not stay there with people wanting to talk to her and not knowing what to say to them. She emigrated to the United States and lived anonymously. (link)

alanh said...

Marc wrote:

At some point, the human species had to be in a "ever-so-slightly", less evolved state. And that evolved state had to be in an ever-so-slightly, less evolved state. Etc... You're missing a whole lot of evolved states.

Marc, here's an excellent explanation from one of the links Jim provided:

"A longstanding misperception of the fossil record of evolution is that fossil species form single lines of descent with unidirectional trends. Such a simple linear view of evolution is called orthogenesis, and has been rejected by paleontologists as a model of evolutionary change (MacFadden, 1992). The reality is much more complex than that, with numerous branching lines of descent and multiple morphologic trends (Fig. 4). The fossil record reveals that the history of life can be understood as a densely branching bush with many short branches (short-lived lineages). The well-known fossil horse series, for example, does not represent a single continuous evolving lineage (MacFadden, 1992). Rather it records more or less isolated parts of an adapting and diversifying limb of the tree of life. While incomplete, this record provides important insights into the patterns of morphological divergence and the modes of evolutionary change."


In other words, evolution is not the simple straight line that you are describing. If you can understand this explanation, then there may be hope for a productive conversation with you. If its over your head or you choose not to understand it then we're right back to square one.

MC DARRRRRRIS said...

"I guess I'll stick prayer, it'll certainly be more effective."
hilarious... because you've seen how many times praying worked, like 50/50. I pray to my computer, it also grants 50/50, an i pray the exact opposite to a dead rabbit so it raises the chances of prayers being answered, you should try it. :)

J. C. Samuelson said...

The more Marc posts, the funnier he is. His response to ES was quite revealing (though hardly surprising):

"If the Congregation For The Doctrine of The Faith issued a condemnation of Garabandal, I would need to turn away from this revelation."

In other words, his faith is in those who will tell him what to believe, not in actual truth or falsehood. Add this to the growing list of fallacies Marc has exhibited. One could almost write a book on logical fallacies using only the examples Marc has so graciously provided us.

And from the link provided by the WM:

Conchita lost faith in her visions, feeling it was all a dream...She decided to leave the village, feeling she could not stay there with people wanting to talk to her and not knowing what to say to them. She emigrated to the United States and lived anonymously...[She] lives quietly and avoids publicity, trying to escape the attention of the public.

Thereby giving the lie to Marc's assertions concerning the young ladies who started the Garabandal affair. As ES suggested, they very likely did it as an attention-seeking stunt, but it gradually dawned on them that this little adventure was going to overwhelm them, and one by one abandoned their claims.

All of us eventually learn that lies usually grow beyond our ability to sustain them. The truth is much easier to live with, even if it is painful. I suspect that even Marc knows this (and teaches his children accordingly), but cherishes these stories for the feelings they give him. Indeed, it is probably incomprehensible to him that others don't feel the same about them, and feels personally rejected because of our skepticism. After all, how could something that feels so good, so full of hope, be wrong?

It's my sincere hope that someday Marc is able to get past superficial irrationalities and move instead toward rational, critical thinking.

Jim,

It's like an addiction, isn't it? ;)

UnBlinded said...

Hi J.C.,

What you are not recognizing is that we, Catholics, endeavor to be faithful to the Church's teachings on issues of faith and morals. I don't have to listen or agree with the Pope on who he think's the best sports team or what's his preferred clothes to wear....although we should endeavor to dress chastely.

You say that: "In other words, his faith is in those who will tell him what to believe". This obviously is not the case, the Church has not told me to believe in the message of Garabandal. It is the grace of God that has revealed that the Garabandal messages are real. Conchita today, the one visionary that is to inform us of the Miracle, is absolutely not denying what happened to her in her childhood. She works as a nurse today, has children and is doing what all of us should be doing, working at being good and praising God.

Statements that suggest that the four visionaries now deny the events of 1961-1965 are nothing but a myth. http://www.ourlady.ca/info/nineMyths.htm

If any of you open your heart and mind to the countless witness accounts, you'll no doubt hear the ring of truth that is tied to these Garabandal messages.

Alanh said: "In other words, evolution is not the simple straight line that you are describing. If you can understand this explanation, then there may be hope for a productive conversation with you."

Alanh, what you are trying to help me understand is that this little paragraph you posted is nothing but a coverup of the fact that you have no proof for evolution. By stating that "The reality is much more complex than that, with numerous branching lines of descent and multiple morphologic trends" you're only accepting an excuse for the fact that there is no logical explanation for the complexity of life. I don't care how many branches, how many lines or how many trends there "are", you've got nothing to prove that anything ever evolved. All you have to go on is that life, as we see it, has some adaptive capabilities. This fact seems to allow the human mind to anchor itself in the belief that it evolved. Even though deep down inside, I have no doubt that many, if not most of you, doubt very much your belief in pure Darwinian evolution.

You might be interested in this link:
Titled: A Christian Paleontologist -- Is Such a Thing Possible?
http://threehierarchies.blogspot.com/2006/04/christian-paleontologist-is-such-thing.html
Exceprt "This drives Schweitzer crazy. Geologists have established that the Hell Creek Formation, where B. rex was found, is 68 million years old, and so are the bones buried in it. She’s horrified that some Christians accuse her of hiding the true meaning of her data. “They treat you really bad,” she says. “They twist your words and they manipulate your data.” For her, science and religion represent two different ways of looking at the world; invoking the hand of God to explain natural phenomena breaks the rules of science. After all, she says, what God asks is faith, not evidence. “If you have all this evidence and proof positive that God exists, you don’t need faith. I think he kind of designed it so that we’d never be able to prove his existence. And I think that’s really cool.”"

Just think about it for a little while.....love, life, existence, animals, fruits and vegetables all here by chance (with natural selection, of course). Don't any of you feel just a little bit arrogant to claim to be atheists....a complete denial of God. You're not even calling yourselves agnostics.....that's a whole lot of arrogance from my perspective and it probably explains a lot about your inability to have faith. But...anything is possible with God, I know this first hand.

J.C. said to Jim: "It's like an addiction, isn't it? ;)" [in reference to responding to me in these posts]

Indeed J.C., there are many things that we can love more than God in this world, many vices that can lead us astray. They can manifest themselves in the most subtle of ways and present themselves as most innocent and even playful to a conscience that has lost it's bearings.

God bless,
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/
http://www.ourlady.ca/

Chris said...

Marc,

You could use a lesson in courtesy. You are posting on a site titled EX-CHRISTIAN.NET, but you feel the need to be a dick by spreading your Christian views. If we wanted to hear what Christians have to say, we would visit Christian.net. This forum is for those of us who want encouragement from others who have heard enough of the lies of Christianity and don't appreciate your bullshit.

You could also use a lesson in honesty. Didn't you say you would stop arguing with us and just pray for us from now on? Do you feel justified in going back on your word? Congratulations for helping to prove the point that Christianity is full of lies.

Jim Arvo said...

Marc,

If you are still claiming that there is no evidence supporting the theory of evolution, you are stunningly disingenuous, Marc. I could perhaps have some small particle of respect for you if you said that you examined and disagreed with each of the many lines of evidence, but to insist that it isn't there is... guess what. Yes, it's invincible ignorance.

I'm only going to respond to one more little part of your most recent claptrap:

Marc: "Don't any of you feel just a little bit arrogant to claim to be atheists....a complete denial of God. You're not even calling yourselves agnostics.....that's a whole lot of arrogance from my perspective and it probably explains a lot about your inability to have faith. But...anything is possible with God, I know this first hand."

Unbelievable.

1) You still don't even know what an atheist is.

2) You think the view of humanity as one branch on an enormous tree of interconnected organisms, on one little planet, in one little galaxy is more arrogant than the view that humans are the "image of god" with the rest of the universe as our plaything.

3) You think we are "unable" to have "faith", which means you are still missing the most fundamental point of all. Anybody can decide to look at only one side of an argument. Anybody can fill their heads with what makes them feel good, or validates their view. We recognize that. Many of us have done just that and were where you are today. What we have decided to do instead is to use what tools are available to us to discern what is actually so. In short, warranted belief is for the sober mind; faith is for the inebriate. Your "faith" is a cover-up, Marc. It's an excuse to remain entrenched in ignorance.

4) Yes, Marc, "anything is possible" with your god, because your god is a construct of the mind, just like thousands of other gods and goddesses. But, in reality, your god actually does nothing.

5) You do not know of anything that your god has done; you simply believe it. Knowledge is based on warranted belief; that is, belief with sound supporting evidence. If there's one thing we've firmly established, Marc, it's that you have no evidence, want no evidence, and brush aside any evidence that is even slightly inconvenient to your beliefs. We all understand that one can live that way. We have chosen to take the more responsible road instead.

alanh said...

Marc wrote:

you've got nothing to prove that anything ever evolved.

So what's the fossil record, chopped liver?

you're only accepting an excuse for the fact that there is no logical explanation for the complexity of life

Uh, Marc, evolution IS a logical explanation for the complexity of life.

Just think about it for a little while.....love, life, existence, animals, fruits and vegetables all here by chance (with natural selection, of course).

What you're really saying is YOU are too important to be here due to evolution. That's the thing about Christians: they say they are sinners, not worthy, vile and lowly creatures, but what they really believe (and what they act on) is that they are "blessed," "saved," children of god, divine in nature, heaven-bound etc etc, in other words, superior beings. If you thought you were created by a natural process then you couldn't be better than us. If you truly believed that you are a vile, not-worthy sinner then you wouldn't be posting here.

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