Christianity is a hoax

Sent in by Chris

I was born into a Christian family, which also believed in the Book of Mormon, but was adamantly opposed to the Mormon church and their "wayward" beliefs (go figure). Eventually I came to see that the Mormonism was a hoax, and was able to reject the portion of my beliefs that stemmed from the Book of Mormon. Part of this realization was a result of my wife's influence in my life. Recently I've also come to realize that most (if not all) of Christianity is also a hoax.

After about a year's absence from going to church and Bible reading, I recently opened up my Bible to read through the Book of John. I was shocked at how much nonsense I read that day. I had absolutely no desire at the time to believe that Christianity was false, but after reading that and many things since then that opened my eyes, I can't rationalize my beliefs through the Bible. It just doesn't work. Either the God "of the Bible" exists, and had allowed a false, misleading, and/or misinterpreted Bible to come into my hands, or the God "of the Bible" doesn't exist. I can't believe in something just because a bunch of dead men said it was so, and a bunch of people living today say that all the leg-work of proving their claims has already been done and I should just have faith. I can't do it. There is just too much nonsense in the Bible to believe it in its entirety.

If I could I would start living my life without Christianity. I have a big problem though. My wife believes in it, and there is absolutely no way she will deny any part of her beliefs. Seriously, no way. Period. She would sooner kill herself than question her beliefs. I kind of understand that thinking myself because I went through a couple months of planning my own suicide and almost going through it. With her, however, it's much more difficult. I cannot reason with her and show her that things may be different than what she has always believed. It will literally crush her not to believe it all.

I told my wife a few weeks into my loss of faith that I was questioning things, and we had a few really tough weeks after that. We both became (and both still are) very depressed. The only reason that we're maintaining now is that I've found some Christian teachings that I respect and will always hold as truth, because they are "good" teachings. I've also found a church that is led by a "good" pastoral staff that truly cares about their congregation. I really respect them, even though I can't believe everything they teach. This respect for the teachings and the church appears to my wife to be a regained faith in Christianity as a whole. She doesn't understand and probably never will understand how I truly see things. I'd like to think that I could be wrong, but I know her too well to risk trying to bring her out of her beliefs. She will lose all hope in life.

I hope to find a way to make at least one of us happy, either my wife or myself. I think I know what I need to do in order for us both to live healthy lives, but I cannot see how it's going to work out. I think we need to get divorced, and break off all communication with each other. Then she can go on with her life and I can go on with mine. I know this will be extremely tough on both of us though.

Has anyone out there had a spouse who refuses to change their beliefs, and had to decide whether or not to divorce? If so, do you have any advice for me?

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34 comments:

Stilter said...

Chris – Ask yourself a few questions: Do you feel you as a person have changed since you realized your faith did not match your true beliefs? Is your wife still the same person that you fell in love with and married? Is it possible to love someone and not feel the same way about things they participate in but still accept them as a good person and a spouse?

I have a similar situation. Though I was not a strong Christian, I felt that Christianity was my base. My life was based on what I thought Christianity was offering. I met, fell totally in love with, and married a woman that I connected with on many levels. Were we differed was that she was (and still is) a practicing Catholic.

Right from the start, when we realized that our relationship would be life long, we agreed to accept each other as individuals. What I mean is; she accepted that I would not convert to Catholicism, and I did not have expectations of her quitting the Catholic Church.

Later as I continued to explore my belief system, I found that the bible had many conflicting messages, and some outright strange ideas that did not match my own feeling of how a person should serve humanity. I still see that there are good lessons in the bible and people should live those lessons not just visit them on Sundays. I have come to feel very strongly about my belief system even though most of my family, and at times my wife, think I have no belief system.

When I first told my wife that I could no longer consider myself a Christian, things were a bit tense. We were careful how we questioned each other regarding religion. Because I love my wife for the person she is, I did not want to cause her any offense. Because I was still the same person that she loved, still acted the same (though not attending church) and still loved her the same, she continued to accept me for the person I am.

I do not believe in revealed religion. I do not feel that any god that wanted to communicate with mankind and want to influence our lives would use such a conflicted and cryptic book I see as the bible. I see those that promote the mainstream revealed regions as people that wish to control those that follow for their personal gratification. I think that the creator of the universe did just that and we should respect the creation as a whole and not expect anything more. We as human beings have had the great fortune to evolve to a level where a certain responsibility to care for our world is a requirement.

As for the relationship that my wife and I enjoy, it’s kind of like when you go shopping at a mall. We walk hand in hand down the main hallways. There are many shops we both enjoy. There are things we buy for both of us and our family. There are some shops she likes to visit as they are of great interest to her. I might go with her to some of those shops but my interest is not there. I try to appreciate what she sees in the things offered there, but I do not find anything that is really for me. Likewise, there are shops that I like that hold no true interest for her. We accept each other with these differing interests because we love each other for the individuals we are. There are times when I fear our relationship will not hold up for the differences, but it has been about ten years since my realization and we still have a good marriage, wonderful kids and lots of love to go around.

Sunday mornings she goes to church and I read and write to further realize my beliefs. We do talk about her church services and what I have read and explored.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, but if you married her and you love her, you should try to make your marriage work. Too many people are quitters. That’s the easy way out. ‘Easy’ doesn’t make us grow. If we are not growing, we are dieing.

Bendigeiduran said...

www.sofn.org.uk is the site of 'The Sea of Faith' - a group of atheists and agnostics who take religion seriously. The name comes from Matthew Arnold's poem 'Dover Beach'. http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/arnold/writings/doverbeach.html
I found being a member of this organisation a great help several years ago.
Their aim is 'To explore and promote religious faith as a human creation, a human recreation, a human responsibility to ourselves and to all living creatures, and as a source of delight: this is our challenge, and our adventure.'
It might help you through your present turmoil.

jimearl said...

Hello Chris. Thanks for your post. I may have some ideas to help you as I am still living with my spouse of 25+ years even though it still sometimes gets rough. We were both Christians when we married back in 1981. I had recently been divorced and this was her first marriage. I struggled with my faith for many years, changing churches and sincerely trying to regain my faith after my divorce. Then I started reading books on the origins of Christianity and other topics and I was shocked by what I discovered. My faith vanished during times of study and meditation. I am now atheist and my wife still attends church but she too slowly but surely has changed.

Over the years, I have made some mistakes and one of them was being too demanding that she look at my side closer. Only when I changed my attitude did she begin to come around.

The bottom line is that we love each other and that's the most important thing to us both. I have decided that if she is willing to stay with me, I should also be willing to stay with her. We get along fine as long as the topic of god and religion stays on the back burner, so to speak. I have discovered that sometimes I allowed my ego to get it the way and now I try my best on Sunday mornings to do other things while she goes to church.

However, I don't think the majority of such couples will make it. If your wife places too much importance on her religion, then your marriage could well be doomed. Both much be willing to love and accept each other in spite of the differences.

In closing, I might add that we have two sons and both have no use for religion, so it seems that they were both able to see thru the deception that all religions offer. If I can be of any help to you from this point forward, feel free to email me at jimp4440@aol.com. I hope that things do work out for the both of you. Jim

Phat Yoda said...

My wife and I were both Catholics when I went godless. She still wanted me to go to church for my daughter's sake.

We compromised by agreeing to go to a Unitarian Universalist Church. They don't care if you don't believe in God. They actually encourage you to think for yourself. It's not too bad.

It's working out well too. My wife actually admitted she doesn't buy into Christianity anymore either... just one more god to go...

Chris said...

I want to say thank you to everyone who has posted a response so far. It's nice to hear from that people are understanding.

stilter, your response is particularly helpful. I'd like to answer your questions here and see what you think.

Do you feel you as a person have changed since you realized your faith did not match your true beliefs?
Yes. I have suppressed my thoughts and beliefs and taken on a life that I never would have if I realized it was false. The "suppressed me" was the person that my wife fell in love with and wanted to spend the rest of her life with. She has always wanted me to grow more and more in Christianity and, although she never came and outright said it, even wants me to be a leader and/or teacher in the church. I started to want that too, mainly for her, but also for God and myself, until just recently when I woke up and started to see the truth.

Is your wife still the same person that you fell in love with and married?
No. When we were dating and leading up to marriage she was a responsible adult. Since we've gotten married though she has become more and more childish and less and less responsible. This change has been evident in many areas of her life, but as far as religious things go, she denies the obvious simply because she doesn't want to believe it. She has no logical reason to believe some of the things she does, but says she just "feels" that it's true. During the first few years of our marriage we talked about things reasonably. Now that simply doesn't work.

Is it possible to love someone and not feel the same way about things they participate in but still accept them as a good person and a spouse?
I don't know. I tell her that I'm seeing things differently now, and her response is to defy reason, which I feel is an intentional act to drive a wedge between us. She wants things her way, or not at all. I don't know if I can love a person like that. I certainly have a hard time respecting her with the way she is acting.

To sum everything up, I never would have married her if I knew we would both change in the ways we have, and I feel like the only way to make things right now is to end the marriage.

Dave8 said...

"Has anyone out there had a spouse who refuses to change their beliefs, and had to decide whether or not to divorce? If so, do you have any advice for me?"

A person doesn’t have a belief, they have needs. When a person suggests they refuse to change their belief; what they are really saying is… they have a need being met, and they refuse to allow that need to go unmet. To suggest or demand that the need go unmet will manifest in conflict. If conflict arises to contempt between either partner, divorce by statistic is greater than a 90% probability.

Advice… be understanding of the other partner’s needs, fill the needs in a consistent and rational manner, and the need for religion may no longer be required. If a person is deciding whether or not to divorce based on religion; they should likely ask themselves if they are divorcing themselves from religion, or the work that would be required to support the other spouse’s needs.

Not all people are capable of understanding their spouses’ needs, especially if both spouses are both going through similar need deficits. If just thinking about it gives one a headache, then it would likely be good to get assistance. A marriage counselor, friend, etc., who are neutral, mature, and disinterested in the outcome of the relationship. And, that obviously leaves out a religious marriage counselor as a neutral and disinterested party.

Dave8 said...

Sorry, was in a hurry when I wrote "A person doesn’t have a belief, they have needs." What that means is, when we look at links and relationships between people, etc., we need to see the true link (person to need), not the label (religion). Labels aren't the true link between the person and belief, the link is between person (self) and need (environment), where belief (rational/irrational) just happens to be a consequence. Take care.

dano said...

I just happen to know of a planet, in another galaxy where beings live, that are approximately 1000 times smarter than we are. They consider themselves to be: "God's chosen beings."

These beings know of us, but don't consider us to be anything more important than bacteria, living on an insignificant planet, revolving around an average sun.
Dan

boomSLANG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
boomSLANG said...

Dano said: I just happen to know of a planet, in another galaxy where beings live, that are approximately 1000 times smarter than we are. They consider themselves to be: "God's chosen beings."

Hi Dano,

I see the point of your little parable here, and I concur. So like, "higher beings" as in intelligence.....but not necessarily "Divine" beings, or beings who are beyond this physical/natural realm.(they couldn't be, if we "know" about them)

And then of course, it begs the question, what "beings" are "higher" than their "higher beings", add infinity. Yes, add it until the lowest "being" is totally insignifigant to the "highest being".

Kind of puts things in perspective, doesn't it?....for those who think that here on little ol' earth, that because the human species has the 'unique' brain functions of self-awareness and reflection, that the entire universe was created juuust for them? Aaaw.

boomSLANG(just some agnostic dude with no belief in gods)

Psssst..I borrowed your tag...'hope ya don't mind! = )

Anonymous said...

Hi Chris,

I am married to a fundy who will probably never stop going to church. For the first few months after my de-conversion, we argued occasionally, because I thought I could convince him.

Two years later, I have completely given up the idea that I can influence him.

He tells me about church, and I tell him about whatever I am doing. I do not criticize his church. He doesn't preach at me.

We actually are reasonably happy, happier than ever maybe. Because we accept each other just the way we are.

I don't know that my situation is possible for everyone, but it works for me, so far anyway.

Take care!

Tim said...

Christianity is not a hoax. It was not something that anyone consciously set out to do in order to make others believe it was true. The only book in the NT that I could say comes close to "hoax" is Acts in that the author knew he was writing false history. The gospels do not qualify because they do not purport to be a history, per se, but a literary exercise in writing a mini-epic similar to the Odyssey wherein the hero (Jesus) undergoes similar events as Odesseus does in Homer's epic. Once Mark penned his epic copy, Matthew, John and then Luke simply copied it in an attempt to improve upon it from a literary standpoint. John being an exception, of course, in that his focused on Jesus the spiritual god dude who talked about himself too much. hehehhe

So, let's not call it a hoax. It's just myth. False. Not true. That's all.

Tim

JayBird's Joint said...

CARM.ORG

Jesus Saves
(...saves from what and from who?)

Jesus is the most important figure in all of human history. He is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9), physically risen from the dead, Lord (Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21) and Savior (Acts 5:30-32). He came to die for sinners (Rom. 5:8) to deliver people from the righteous wrath of God upon us.

Are you a sinner?

I ask you, are you a sinner? Have you ever lied, stolen, lusted, coveted, or been angry with someone unjustly? If so, then you have broken the Law of God. God has said "You shall not steal; You shall not lie; You shall have no other gods before Me; You shall not murder, etc.," (Exodus 20). He has given the standard of righteousness and if you have broken any of God's commandments then you have fallen short of that standard and are under the inevitable judgment of God. When you die, you will face Him and on the Day of Judgment He will punish all sinners.
If you do not like this teaching, then throw away your Bible and turn from Christ, for this is the message of God's word -- that Jesus came to die for sinners and to save them from the wrath to come.
Jesus is the One you need. He alone. Not your works (Rom. 3:10-12; Isaiah 64:6). Not your sincerity. Not your goodness. You have nothing to offer God except your sinfulness. It is only by the love and grace of God found in Jesus and His sacrifice that you can be delivered from the righteous wrath of God upon all who have broken His law. Jesus saves you from God.

God's wrath on the Day of Judgment is upon sinners

On the Day of Judgment God will judge all people for their sins against Him. He will judge all who have lied, stolen, cheated, lusted, dishonored their parents, etc. He will do this because He is holy and righteous. God must punish the sinner. God cannot and will not ignore the person who has broken His righteous law. The Law is a reflection of the character of God. Therefore, to break God's law is to offend God and deny the holiness of His character. He will be vindicated. He will judge.
The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). That means that your sins have caused a separation between you and God (Isaiah 59:2) and the result is death (Rom. 6:23) and wrath (Eph. 2:3). The only way to be saved from the wrath of God, is to be saved from it by faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 5:1). You must trust in what Jesus did on the cross to forgive you of your sins and not trust anything else, not even your own sincerity or works. It is Jesus and only Jesus who can turn away the righteous judgment of God upon the sinner.

The Gospel

The gospel is that Jesus died for sinners on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4). His death was a sacrifice that turns away the wrath of God (1 John 2:2). This is the only way to be saved.
Jesus is the one who died for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). He is the only way to the God the Father (John 14;6). He alone reveals God (Matt. 11:27). He has all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18). It is only through Him that you can be saved from God's wrath (Eph. 2:3). He can forgive you of your sin (Luke 5:20; Matt. 9:2). He can remove the guilt that is upon your soul. Jesus can set you free from the bondage of sin that blinds your eyes, weakens your soul, and brings you to despair. He can do this because He bore sin in His body on the cross (1 Peter. 2:24) that those who trust in Him would be saved.
If you are not a Christian, and want to be delivered from the righteous judgment of God upon you due to your sin against Him, then come to the One who died for the sins of the world. Come to the One who died for sinners (Matt. 11:28). Turn from your sins. Believe and trust in Jesus. Receive Jesus, who is God in flesh, who died and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4) as your Lord and Savior. Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins. Receive Christ (John 1:12). Only He can wash you clean from your sins and only Jesus can deliver you from the righteous judgment of a holy and infinite God. Pray to Jesus. Seek Him. Ask Him to save you.
He will.

I would like to note, that the Jesus of Mormonism (the brother of the devil), the Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses (an angel made into a man), the Jesus of the New Age (a man in tune with the divine consciousness), etc., cannot save you from your sins. Faith is only as good as who you put it in. Only the Jesus of the Bible can do that. Jesus is God in flesh, the creator. God is a trinity and Jesus is the second person of the trinity.

If you have prayed and asked Jesus to deliver you from your sins and save you from God's wrath, then please email us at carm and let us know.

CARM.ORG

Chris said...

JayBird's Joint,

Thanks for the sermon. Unfortunately you're just regurgitating the same stuff I've heard for the past 20+ years. Why not address the issue at hand instead? If you're trying to bring me back to Christianity, then explain to me why the Bible isn't nonsense. Why not start out with Psalm 14:1 - "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" or "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." Tell me that I'm a fool to reject Christianity because it makes perfect sense to believers. There, I just made a much better case for Christianity than you did. Care to try again?

J. C. Samuelson said...

Oh good. Jaybird's back for his semi-annual sermon. Nothing new, I see. Why bother, JB?

Chris,

Very good post. Isn't it amazing how, if you take a break from the Bible, when you look again it's like seeing it from a fresh (and more rational) perspective?

I can't improve on the advice the others have offered, and I'm not the best person to offer advice on relationships anyway (as I'm divorced - or will be when I finally get off my rump and file the stinkin' paperwork; it's only been 2 years :)). I think, however, that the key element we see running through everyone's replies is compromise. As long as she's willing to compromise and not force the issue, and you're willing to do the same, there may be a chance.

Good luck to you, and welcome!

Joe said...

Chris, I can only offer my own story. My deconversion is too recent and the after story is far too incomplete to draw any conclusions from.

My wife of 18 years and I divorced in the process. There were simply too many power issues involved. Faced with questions about negotiating new terms to suit the new reality, we were not up to it. I wanted to spend time exploring the secular world, develop friendships with non-Christians, etc., but my time was not my own to use in pointless worldly pursuits. I was obviously just being selfish. Six months of marriage counseling failed to resolve the matter. The most telling statement she made along the way was, "Negotiate? You're my husband. I shouldn't have to negotiate."

Obviously there were lots of flaws in this relationship that had been smoothed over by a church that kept us pointed in the same general direction and dictated terms that she found agreeable.

As other responses indicate, there are lots of marriage dynamics in which a live and let live approach is possible and even rewarding. You'll have to feel your way through the new dynamics your deconversion has created in your specific circumstances. I wish you the best.

eel_shepherd said...

I've just been sucking in JayBird's Joint's emission, and am having no difficulty at all deciding whether to swallow or spit...

Chris, your situation is a toughie, alright. I'm wondering what your wife's view of Nature is. Does she consider that the natural world is corrupt through and through, as some Xtians do? Or that raw nature is pure and regenerative? Or neutral? It would seem to me that with some couples of mixed (non-)faith, an agreement concerning what Nature is, and brings, to a thinking and feeling human might be a sort of communication bridge. A common starting point or touchstone for your separate worldviews/philosophies. Again, it depends on whether your wife's view of the current state of "creation" is that it's completely "fallen", or not. Just an idea.

Stilter said...

Chris - Unfortunately, you may be correct about your marriage. It takes two with commitment and devotion to make the marriage work. It sounds to me that you would continue the commitment if only your wife would respond in kind. What you have described are problems beyond religious differences. You may consider seeking the advice of a counselor. Perhaps with that, you wife will see her actions and maturity (or lack there of) as being the parting force. I wish you the best a rational life has to offer.

Andrew Hawkins said...

Chris

I have a similar story to tell. I told my wife that I am an atheist on the night before our wedding. Top that. We've been together ten very long and happy years. I've actually made her question her faith and it has waned but it's always been there. She stopped going to church for a while. Two years ago she gave birth to our first son. She now wants to indoctrinate him. I am of course really against this. She says that she doesn't see the harm that it could do to him. Oh yeah - as soon as he is old enough to know what death is she'll say that you are going to burn in eternity in hell. And she can’t see the harm. She has been blinded by faith. After a few weeks of sleepless nights he'll say the sinners prayer and be a Christian. Unless I get there first. What a crazy mixed up situation.

If you’ve been reading this website for long you’ll realise that all the de-conversion stories have a common thread and, that is, doubt. Doubt is a major part of the Christian faith and the ex-Christians here have doubted more than most. If it were true you couldn’t possibly doubt it. Keep her doubting and it may just all come tumbling down around her.

If you are to divorce then that is what Jesus would have wanted. For he said, “I have come to split father and son, husband and wife”.

Anyway, she should be subjugating to you for it says this in the bible.

Hope it all goes well, and sorry for pointing out the obvious non-truths that the bible says. However harsh they may be.

Joe said...

Andrew raises a big issue for xians. If you doubt, you should put your kids first and make them as doubt-free as possible (read: shut out the secular world). After all there's that special kind of hell for anyone who "causes one of these little ones to stumble." Not sure what that is, but the point of comparison -- drowned with a millstone tied around the neck is bad enough. Parenting out of fear. What a great concept. Shove it down their throats now so they can live forever. What a loathsome way to abuse a parent's natural desire to give every possible good to their kids. Sorry about being a spring-butt in this thread. My willingness to live and let live is at a low ebb.

JayBird's Joint said...

"Tell me that I'm a fool to reject Christianity because it makes perfect sense to believers. There, I just made a much better case for Christianity than you did. Care to try again? "

I didn't come here to call you foolish, your just simply lost, and i'm trying to help point you in the right direction....toward Christ.

CARM.ORG

Tim said...

J., what does "Christ" mean?

Tim

stronger now said...

jaybird's joint


You are pointing to absurdity and calling US lost! Beleiving what the bible said almost ruined my mind. That can't be good. Ex-christian. Get it?

Chris said...

"I didn't come here to call you foolish, your just simply lost, and i'm trying to help point you in the right direction....toward Christ."

Jaybird,

Why don't you try to understand me before calling me lost? Did you read anything I have written? I lived the Christian life for over 20 years. I heard sermon after sermon just like the one you typed in this forum, and I believed it (blindly) for years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years...get the point? Someone who walks down the same path for so long is not lost. He's either on the right path, or he's on the wrong path. In my case, I stopped walking, looked down, looked around , looked up, and saw which path I was on -- the wrong one. I'm not lost, I know exactly where I am. I still see the path. Now I'd like to get off of it, so stop wasting my time with your nonsense babble that I've heard over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...get the point?

boomSLANG said...

Taken from "Jaybird's Joint":

If God exists, and He does, then it is He who...[edit: Insert arbitrary regurgitated Christian soundbite..i.e.."spam"]

Thus, again, here lies the crux of Jaybird's argument for the question of God's existance:

1) If God exists...
2) and He does
3) Therefore, God exists.

Because of the complexity, let's review:

God exists. And how do we know this? Well, "because he does", that's why. 'Convinced?

From Jaybird's joint: So, we need to see what the Bible says about what is right regarding sin and salvation and make a decision afterwards.

And again, the bible is "true", why? Well of course!...because it says it's true, that's why. Circular....like a cow-patty.

From Jaybird's joint: God cares about us and seeks our well being and security. His thoughts about us are infinite and His love is too. This is why God does not desire that anyone go to hell, but that all come to repentance.

Let's examine this, shall we?

Okay, God's "love" for us is "infinite". So, conceptually speaking, as God stands idly by and watches his "plan" for sinners unfold(knowing what will happen because of his "omniscience"), that must mean that God still "loves" those who will be sizzling away in the "lake of fire". Yes, "God" still "loves" the hell-bound, and he "does not desire" to see them in hell, but "God" is powerless to go against these "Laws" that "God" created. In other words---"God" cannot change God's mind, even if it would please God to do so. 'Got quandary?

But seriously, how any full-grown adult can believe such an asinine concept is beyond me. And wHO is "lost"?

From Jaybird's joint: If God's understanding is infinite, then God is infinite in nature.

And if God is "infinite", then God has no limits, thus, God has no identity with which we limited beings can detect God. So we can't "know" God exists. Another blantant contradiction...but nothing shocking.

From Jaybird's joint: The Bible tells us that God is righteous. "God is a righteous judge," (Psalm 7:9). His righteousness is part of His character just as are mercy and love. Righteousness deals with justice and justice deals with the Law. This means that God will always do that which is right and He does so according to the righteous Law that He has set forth. God cannot do anything wrong. God must do that which is right, otherwise He would not be righteous.

Jaybird is trying to tell us that "God's word" is intrinsically "right" and "moral". Utter bullshit. The bible, "God's Word", explicitly says to kill those who would lead Christians away from their biblegod.(deut) But yet, we know, and Jaybird knows, that such a thing is NOT "right" and/or "moral", otherwise, he would be out killing non-believers, instead of just trolling their websites.

From Jaybird's joint: You see, if God did not punish the person who does wrong, then He would be unjust and unrighteous. He would be breaking His own law -- which He cannot do.

Um, "God breaks his own laws" all over the place, namely in the OT. Let's see--"Thou shalt not kill!" Yet, God slaughters adults, children, and even animals. Blatant contradictions all over the place.

Christianity is a lie, and the "hoax" is on them.

Chris said...

And by the way, Jaybird, you may detect that I'm a little upset. You'll be upset too when you stop and think about the religion that you've been sucked into. You'll be upset, and this forum will be here to help you get through the feelings, thoughts, and hopelessness that you experience from being duped. If you truly care about me or anyone else and want to help us, then start being helpful by leaving us alone.

freedy said...

Jaybird,..Who's the lost one around here?

You're the one who believes in a sadistic,mass killing,and torturer of millions,(those who don't choose him over the thousands of temptations "he" created).
It's "you" who praise an incompetant deity that allows 30,000 innocent children to die daily of disease and starvation.

I"d say anyone who walks,talks,and obeys an inmaginary
old mad man,well,...he's the lost one around here.

Fly away and spread your madness somewhere else! peace,freedy

dano said...

On JayBird's Joint's, blog, he says he is A "VETERAN MARINE."

Aren't marines taught to follow orders. It says in the Bible to be wary of people who use intelligence, reason, and logic to try to lure Christians away from belief in JC.

Ole Jaybird is just trying to be like a little child, innocent in his beliefs, obeying blindly, taking orders from the scripture. Our reason and logic are like "filthy rags" or something like that!

We are way too smart to ever be able to go to heaven. It says so right there in the good book!

Don't forget that little ole angel (Satan) who decided to become Gods nemesis, and goes around tempting good Christians. He is real, and he represents evil, and God made him, and God f----d up because he didn't make him right, and now God cant do a f-----g thing about it.

Satan "Gets off" on being a rebel and making all of us, smart people, say nasty things to Christians.
Dan

Astreja said...

Jaybird, if your god ever existed (and I doubt it very, very much) I would not worship it. In my view it is a sadistic and bloodthirsty monster unworthy of respect.

The Bible is nothing more and nothing less than very, very old Mesopotamian mythology filtered through the androcentric and violent worldview of a small Eastern Mediterranean tribe descended from the Canaanites. Any genuine morality the book contains is simple common sense that a handful of kindergarten students could figure out on their own: "Don't hit me and I won't hit you back." The rest is hazardous to humanity and should be discarded at the first possible opportunity.

As for the so-called "sacrifice" of Jesus -- Don't make me laugh. Even if it happened (again, something that I doubt very much), it has no power to save anyone, anywhere, any time. Death has no redeeming power, although occasionally it aids in the production of compost.

Steven Bently said...

God loves everyone....BUT if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll go to hell..!!!

True love is unconditional..!!

Someone's lying!!

Pert said...

Which Church were You in Chris, as You say You believed in the Book of Mormon but Your church wasn't the Mormon Church?

Chris said...

Pert,

My family attended the Reorginized Latter Day Saints church until I was about 8 years old. Then my dad claimed to have heard the Holy Spirit say to him that this church was now falling away from Him too, just like the Mormon church had, because they started ordaining women as ministers. We left the church then, and my dad considered going back a few times, even though the Holy Spirit never said it was okay to do so. My mom fought him on the issue, and we never did end up going back. We started attending a very small non-denominational church with very similar beliefs to Baptists. However, my dad still believed all of their teachings and especially believed that the Book of Mormon was inerrant. He held regular studies for our family, using both the Bible and Book of Mormon to teach us.

Chris said...

There's actually several different denominations that believe in the Book of Mormon, and teach similar beliefs to Mormonism, but are much closer to traditional Christian beliefs than the Mormon church is. The Reorginized Latter Day Saints is probably the largest of the other denominations. They've recently changed their name to Community of Christ, perhaps to further distinguish themselves from the Mormon church. Their beliefs are based on Joseph Smith, the prophet who started it all, and several others who stayed in the Midwest rather than following Brigham Young to Utah. These followers of Joseph Smith kept their beliefs much more similar to Christianity than the followers of Brigham Young did. Here's the Wikipedia link for their organization:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ

One of the interesting things pointed out in this article is that in this church "nearly 1 in 10 members hold priesthood office". This was what attracted my dad to the church. They gave him a priesthood position early on to make him feel powerful and committed to the church.

IndraGaia said...

**WHY** do Christians come to forums like this and think they can convert people---especially those who have tried Christianity and found that it failed? One has to wonder how they would feel if a Satanist went into their forums and tried to get everybody there to convert to Satanism!

As for Chris' post, I find it parallels my own experience in many ways. I was brainwashed into Christianity almost from birth, but after trying very hard for 29 yrs I had to admit it was just not working. Recently (it is now 14 yrs later) I have begun diligently trying to undo the severe damage that Christianity inflicted upon me--not the least of which is low self-esteem, which prevents me from achieving the success in my life (i.e., using my "god given talents"!!) that I certainly otherwise would, had Christians not pounded the "thou unworthy sinner" message in so thoroughly. Yet my mother still believes...and in this I can identify with you, Chris.

Advice, I have none, except perhaps to listen to your inner voice. I, too, am shocked at the utter nonsense in the bible, and how thoroughly it turns people away from any self-directed thought. So maybe that's a good place to start. :)

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