Losing faith has made me a better person
Sent in by Sean
My family is supremely Christian. Roman Catholic to be precise, easily one of the most depressing religions on the planet. Or as Kevin Smith's 'Dogma' put it. “Catholics don't celebrate their faith, they mourn it.” I attended catholic school for eight years, my great aunt was a nun and the principal at the school I attended.
My faith was lost years ago. It wasn't a jarring, or particularly instantaneous event, it was a slow, and rational process. I was left scarred and nearly destroyed by my religious experiences. I was told that my sexual desires were evil, and that relieving myself in any way was evil, and would lead to my eternal damnation. I was, apparently, not even allowed to want to touch a woman until I was married.
Losing faith has made me a better person. I am far more tolerant of different lifestyles than any 'faithful' person I've ever met. I am calmer, more at peace, and much more fulfilled than I ever was as a Christan. Though, I openly admit, that many of them do their absolute best to be kind caring people. Faith's very nature ingrains prejudice into even the kindest people. You can see it in the way they become uncomfortable when dealing with such issues, even if they strive for tolerance.
The bible, in my view, along with any other religious text, is at the top of the list of the most evil, bigoted, and misused writings on the planet. Right up with 'Mein Kamph'.
It all started, oddly enough, in science classes. Biology in particular. Evolution always made sense to me, but that wasn't the issue that truly started it.
No, it was something as simple as the anatomy of a whale, and the improbability of someone surviving in such an environment for any extended period of time. I'm aware that there have been a few cases of people surviving being swallowed. They were pulled out no more than an hour after being swallowed, and the individuals involved were all whalers, and all had to be cut out of the innards of the animal. All required an extensive stay at a hospital afterwards as well. Surviving such an event at all is a recent phenomenon.
The silliness didn't stop there. Even at a young age, I was asked to believe people who told me that a giant magic rabbit would bring me candy and colored eggs, and hide them around my home each year. Which is, by the way, the result of pagan beliefs about fertility, and has nothing to do with Jesus.
There was also the insistence, that a large man, in a red suit, would climb down something my home didn't even have, and leave me presents. To put it simply, it became obvious early on that there was something suspect about it all. I was expected to take these people at their word, about things that happened 2000+ years ago. A hard pill to swallow.
Fortunately, I was smart enough to keep my mouth shut until I was out on my own, and out of their control. The last thing I wanted was to be forcibly counseled, and forced into more intensive brainwashing programs. My advice to youth in such a position is to follow my example. Excessively faithful parents can become quite forcible and hostile when dealing with this kind of issue. Punishing their children for the 'sin' of actually using their brain.
I had witnessed others being 'culled' back into the flock, and found the idea unappealing. They feel they are saving their children, and that it must be dealt with swiftly and forcibly. A horrible mindset to be sure, but faith cares little for logic and reason, and doesn't mind at all using cruelty to get it's way. The Inquisition, Conquistadors, and Crusades are all the evidence you need of that fact. You must be subversive, wily, and cunning to deal with it if you are found out. After an incident involving an abortion rally, I was forced to pretend to submit, and atone for thinking God was wrong. It didn't really matter if it brought crime rates down and made people's lives better. It was wrong, and they should suffer for their sins, and their unwanted children with them.
To put it simply, I was fortunate enough to realize that I was being brainwashed at an early age. By the time I was twelve, I was hiding the fact that I found my parents religious life was just plain stupid. I was told that god sent his own son to earth, to be tortured and murdered, and that it was a beautiful, and wondrous story.
If I had done such a thing to a child I had, I would expect to be prosecuted, and possibly given the death penalty, if not a lifetime behind bars.
Yet, god was merciful, and kind. The god that tortured Job, just to get into a pissing contest with Satan. God loves all people, but if you disobey him, he'll send you to burn in eternal torture forever. The god that made an entire race suffer death and plague, just because one man was being stubborn. Such kindness in our dark...err...loving overlord.
An event, that, by the way, has no evidence of any kind to support it. There is no evidence, of any kind, that suggest that the Hebrews were ever enslaved to the Egyptians. The only place you will find any mention of it, is in the bible.
Christians will tell you that the Egyptians didn't record defeats. However, Moses, who probably didn't ever exist, was supposedly a part of the royal family. It would be near to impossible to omit any mention of such a person, especially someone so close to the Pharaoh. There are also no records in any of the neighboring cultures, another oddity considering his position in the Egyptian Royal Family. Nor is there any evidence of an entire culture wandering in a desert for 40 years, no broken pottery, no graves, not so much as a mummified turd.
The truth of the matter is, the bible was written by men. It contains within it the bigotry, racism, and arrogance of men. It teaches that homosexuals are evil, women are property, and that slavery is acceptable in god's eyes. Even selling ones own family is encouraged in it's writings. There is actually a passage that says that disobedient children should be stoned to death.
There are some good ideas in the bible, but they are largely overshadowed by the dark side of humanity. The ten commandments, ripped off from Hammurabi's code, are not the foundation of the western laws. In fact, you'll find that out of all ten, only two are actually laws in the US. Don't kill, and don't steal.
To put it simply, the bible is a system of control. A means to keep humanity's ignorant masses under control and prevent education. The church has a track record of murder, torture, and blocking of civil rights, that it continues to this day.
It stands in the way of progress, learning, and actual facts. Murdering those who would dare speak out against it. The man who told them the sun was the center of our galaxy, was burned alive for his efforts to enlighten them. They've stood in the way of civil rights, and continue to do so today, speaking out against homosexuality, calling it unnatural. Odd, considering it's been recorded in more than 1500 species of animals. Hardly something you'd expect from an unnatural behavior.
They stand in the way of medical research. Claiming that stem cells are human lives. Odd, considering the embryos they use are frozen.
Think about it this way. If I put a mouse in my freezer for three days, and then pull it out and let it thaw after that. Do you really think it will begin running around the counter?
No. The mouse is still dead.
Faith is the absence of logic and reason, it had it's place in the world. Now, the time has come to move on.
To quote Douglas Adams "God used to be the best explanation we'd got, and we've now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining."
My family is frustrated with my beliefs. I was expected to become upset when I discovered one of my uncles was gay. I'm the only one in my family who will speak with him anymore, and I can tell he is grateful for it. I could tell that it hurt my mother that I wasn't upset and didn't ostracize him with the rest of my family. I still don't feel bad about hurting her that way, and to be frank, it disgusts me.
I care about my family, but find myself tolerated, and not welcome in their presence at times. Still, I feel I should strive on. Education, and future generations are more important. It's time to stop the silliness, violence won't do it, education is the only cure for the world's collective neurological disorder. It hurts many people to hear it, but if you think there's an invisible man in the sky, you've got one.
"My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” -Douglas Adams on the nature of faith.
If Mr. Adams is a 'radical atheist', then I am an aggressive atheist. I have no problem telling Christians that their beliefs are stupid. Why? Well, because they are.
The problem with most of us today is we seem to have instilled within our culture the absurd notion that all views and beliefs should be respected.
This is wrong, other views and beliefs should be tolerated, not respected. I've no intention of tying you to a stake and threatening to burn, or shoot you because your beliefs differ from mine. Christians have proven in the past that they have no problem with such methods.
They should not be left unchallenged, or allowed to spread their ignorant foolishness without resistance. It's just as wrong as spreading it yourself. You must speak out and tell them to their faces that they are wrong.
Here is one such example of a conversation I've had at my job many times before, with various individuals. The details vary, but it goes largely the same every time.
“Have you found Jesus?”
“Why? Did you lose him? Do you have a description?”
“He's our lord and savior!”
“Looks like an Italian guy on a stick to me. You are aware that Jesus was Jewish? Either that, or he was Latino, I'm not entirely sure. I've heard rumors about him, supposedly he sells some fire bud. Whatever that means.”
“You're going to burn in hell! Let me help you!”
“Into ten percent of my income? No thanks. I like actually being able to have sex as well. I'm better off and healthier without basing my life on an anthology of Jewish fairy tales.”
“You shouldn't be so disrespectful!”
“Why not? You don't seem to have any problem telling me I'm wrong and how to live my life. Why should I treat you any differently? Now you're just being silly.”
They will gnash their teeth, become hateful and angry, and tell you that you have to respect their beliefs.
You must respond and stand firm. “No, I have to tolerate your stupid beliefs, not respect them. I have every right to point out the fact that you're a gullible brainwashed moron, and that your arguments lack logic or reason. You can't stop me. This is not the United States of Jesus Christ.” Assuming you live in the US of course. “In fact, I feel it is my civic duty to call you out for the unreasonable ignorant boob that you are. It is my duty as an upstanding rational human being! I cannot stand idly by why you spread this foolishness any further. You sir, are a sheep, and I'll take being a wolf over that any day.”
This of course leads to more frustration, which hopefully, will stop said unreasonable person from speaking to you.
“I have the moral high ground! You're an evil man!” they will cry.
“75% of the US population is Christian. 75% of the US prison population is Christian. 10% of the US population is atheist. 0.02% of the US prison population is Atheist. You do not have the higher moral ground.”
If you've got one of the nicer Christians, at this point they will offer to pray for you. The other type will rant and stomp away, probably to get you fired from your job. I'm fortunate enough to have a boss who will tell them no, and that they shouldn't speak with me on the issue if they don't want to be insulted in such a way, and that in fact, they have insulted me by trying to be so forceful. A rare and wonderful thing in my experience.
“No! Don't pray for me! Don't you know that actually increases the chances of my death? Especially if I'm in the hospital. You shouldn't, and if you must, don't say anything. It's not really comforting.”
“You're a bad person!”
“Well, I guess I could act like a good Christian and sell my sister into slavery, stone a few disobedient children to death, and murder and rape non believers, maybe burn a few innocent people at the steak, and learn to hate gay people. You know, like Jesus wanted. Oh! Maybe if I send thousands of innocent children into the Holy Land to be slaughtered if it would help?”
“We are not...”
“And apparently, forget how to read. You know, you can't pick the parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest if it's the infallible word of god. You've got to kill people for working on Sunday or having long hair too you know.”
“You're forgetting about all the charitable work, and good the church does!”
“No. That's kind of like giving community service to a serial killer as punishment. The church has done more harm than good.”
Naturally, this is a compilation, they usually don't hang around for more than a few rounds. Still, the principal is the same. Stand your ground and verbally slug them in the gut. It makes them less likely to push their crap on others. The more of us there are, the harder it becomes for them.
Viva la resistance!
By the way, if you didn't find this the least bit funny, they Jesus has destroyed your sense of humor. Be sure to thank him for it, not that he'll hear you anyway as he's been dead for 2000+ years, but still.
To monitor comments posted to this topic, use
.
My family is supremely Christian. Roman Catholic to be precise, easily one of the most depressing religions on the planet. Or as Kevin Smith's 'Dogma' put it. “Catholics don't celebrate their faith, they mourn it.” I attended catholic school for eight years, my great aunt was a nun and the principal at the school I attended.
My faith was lost years ago. It wasn't a jarring, or particularly instantaneous event, it was a slow, and rational process. I was left scarred and nearly destroyed by my religious experiences. I was told that my sexual desires were evil, and that relieving myself in any way was evil, and would lead to my eternal damnation. I was, apparently, not even allowed to want to touch a woman until I was married.
Losing faith has made me a better person. I am far more tolerant of different lifestyles than any 'faithful' person I've ever met. I am calmer, more at peace, and much more fulfilled than I ever was as a Christan. Though, I openly admit, that many of them do their absolute best to be kind caring people. Faith's very nature ingrains prejudice into even the kindest people. You can see it in the way they become uncomfortable when dealing with such issues, even if they strive for tolerance.
The bible, in my view, along with any other religious text, is at the top of the list of the most evil, bigoted, and misused writings on the planet. Right up with 'Mein Kamph'.
It all started, oddly enough, in science classes. Biology in particular. Evolution always made sense to me, but that wasn't the issue that truly started it.
No, it was something as simple as the anatomy of a whale, and the improbability of someone surviving in such an environment for any extended period of time. I'm aware that there have been a few cases of people surviving being swallowed. They were pulled out no more than an hour after being swallowed, and the individuals involved were all whalers, and all had to be cut out of the innards of the animal. All required an extensive stay at a hospital afterwards as well. Surviving such an event at all is a recent phenomenon.
The silliness didn't stop there. Even at a young age, I was asked to believe people who told me that a giant magic rabbit would bring me candy and colored eggs, and hide them around my home each year. Which is, by the way, the result of pagan beliefs about fertility, and has nothing to do with Jesus.
There was also the insistence, that a large man, in a red suit, would climb down something my home didn't even have, and leave me presents. To put it simply, it became obvious early on that there was something suspect about it all. I was expected to take these people at their word, about things that happened 2000+ years ago. A hard pill to swallow.
Fortunately, I was smart enough to keep my mouth shut until I was out on my own, and out of their control. The last thing I wanted was to be forcibly counseled, and forced into more intensive brainwashing programs. My advice to youth in such a position is to follow my example. Excessively faithful parents can become quite forcible and hostile when dealing with this kind of issue. Punishing their children for the 'sin' of actually using their brain.
I had witnessed others being 'culled' back into the flock, and found the idea unappealing. They feel they are saving their children, and that it must be dealt with swiftly and forcibly. A horrible mindset to be sure, but faith cares little for logic and reason, and doesn't mind at all using cruelty to get it's way. The Inquisition, Conquistadors, and Crusades are all the evidence you need of that fact. You must be subversive, wily, and cunning to deal with it if you are found out. After an incident involving an abortion rally, I was forced to pretend to submit, and atone for thinking God was wrong. It didn't really matter if it brought crime rates down and made people's lives better. It was wrong, and they should suffer for their sins, and their unwanted children with them.
To put it simply, I was fortunate enough to realize that I was being brainwashed at an early age. By the time I was twelve, I was hiding the fact that I found my parents religious life was just plain stupid. I was told that god sent his own son to earth, to be tortured and murdered, and that it was a beautiful, and wondrous story.
If I had done such a thing to a child I had, I would expect to be prosecuted, and possibly given the death penalty, if not a lifetime behind bars.
Yet, god was merciful, and kind. The god that tortured Job, just to get into a pissing contest with Satan. God loves all people, but if you disobey him, he'll send you to burn in eternal torture forever. The god that made an entire race suffer death and plague, just because one man was being stubborn. Such kindness in our dark...err...loving overlord.
An event, that, by the way, has no evidence of any kind to support it. There is no evidence, of any kind, that suggest that the Hebrews were ever enslaved to the Egyptians. The only place you will find any mention of it, is in the bible.
Christians will tell you that the Egyptians didn't record defeats. However, Moses, who probably didn't ever exist, was supposedly a part of the royal family. It would be near to impossible to omit any mention of such a person, especially someone so close to the Pharaoh. There are also no records in any of the neighboring cultures, another oddity considering his position in the Egyptian Royal Family. Nor is there any evidence of an entire culture wandering in a desert for 40 years, no broken pottery, no graves, not so much as a mummified turd.
The truth of the matter is, the bible was written by men. It contains within it the bigotry, racism, and arrogance of men. It teaches that homosexuals are evil, women are property, and that slavery is acceptable in god's eyes. Even selling ones own family is encouraged in it's writings. There is actually a passage that says that disobedient children should be stoned to death.
There are some good ideas in the bible, but they are largely overshadowed by the dark side of humanity. The ten commandments, ripped off from Hammurabi's code, are not the foundation of the western laws. In fact, you'll find that out of all ten, only two are actually laws in the US. Don't kill, and don't steal.
To put it simply, the bible is a system of control. A means to keep humanity's ignorant masses under control and prevent education. The church has a track record of murder, torture, and blocking of civil rights, that it continues to this day.
It stands in the way of progress, learning, and actual facts. Murdering those who would dare speak out against it. The man who told them the sun was the center of our galaxy, was burned alive for his efforts to enlighten them. They've stood in the way of civil rights, and continue to do so today, speaking out against homosexuality, calling it unnatural. Odd, considering it's been recorded in more than 1500 species of animals. Hardly something you'd expect from an unnatural behavior.
They stand in the way of medical research. Claiming that stem cells are human lives. Odd, considering the embryos they use are frozen.
Think about it this way. If I put a mouse in my freezer for three days, and then pull it out and let it thaw after that. Do you really think it will begin running around the counter?
No. The mouse is still dead.
Faith is the absence of logic and reason, it had it's place in the world. Now, the time has come to move on.
To quote Douglas Adams "God used to be the best explanation we'd got, and we've now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining."
My family is frustrated with my beliefs. I was expected to become upset when I discovered one of my uncles was gay. I'm the only one in my family who will speak with him anymore, and I can tell he is grateful for it. I could tell that it hurt my mother that I wasn't upset and didn't ostracize him with the rest of my family. I still don't feel bad about hurting her that way, and to be frank, it disgusts me.
I care about my family, but find myself tolerated, and not welcome in their presence at times. Still, I feel I should strive on. Education, and future generations are more important. It's time to stop the silliness, violence won't do it, education is the only cure for the world's collective neurological disorder. It hurts many people to hear it, but if you think there's an invisible man in the sky, you've got one.
"My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” -Douglas Adams on the nature of faith.
If Mr. Adams is a 'radical atheist', then I am an aggressive atheist. I have no problem telling Christians that their beliefs are stupid. Why? Well, because they are.
The problem with most of us today is we seem to have instilled within our culture the absurd notion that all views and beliefs should be respected.
This is wrong, other views and beliefs should be tolerated, not respected. I've no intention of tying you to a stake and threatening to burn, or shoot you because your beliefs differ from mine. Christians have proven in the past that they have no problem with such methods.
They should not be left unchallenged, or allowed to spread their ignorant foolishness without resistance. It's just as wrong as spreading it yourself. You must speak out and tell them to their faces that they are wrong.
Here is one such example of a conversation I've had at my job many times before, with various individuals. The details vary, but it goes largely the same every time.
“Have you found Jesus?”
“Why? Did you lose him? Do you have a description?”
“He's our lord and savior!”
“Looks like an Italian guy on a stick to me. You are aware that Jesus was Jewish? Either that, or he was Latino, I'm not entirely sure. I've heard rumors about him, supposedly he sells some fire bud. Whatever that means.”
“You're going to burn in hell! Let me help you!”
“Into ten percent of my income? No thanks. I like actually being able to have sex as well. I'm better off and healthier without basing my life on an anthology of Jewish fairy tales.”
“You shouldn't be so disrespectful!”
“Why not? You don't seem to have any problem telling me I'm wrong and how to live my life. Why should I treat you any differently? Now you're just being silly.”
They will gnash their teeth, become hateful and angry, and tell you that you have to respect their beliefs.
You must respond and stand firm. “No, I have to tolerate your stupid beliefs, not respect them. I have every right to point out the fact that you're a gullible brainwashed moron, and that your arguments lack logic or reason. You can't stop me. This is not the United States of Jesus Christ.” Assuming you live in the US of course. “In fact, I feel it is my civic duty to call you out for the unreasonable ignorant boob that you are. It is my duty as an upstanding rational human being! I cannot stand idly by why you spread this foolishness any further. You sir, are a sheep, and I'll take being a wolf over that any day.”
This of course leads to more frustration, which hopefully, will stop said unreasonable person from speaking to you.
“I have the moral high ground! You're an evil man!” they will cry.
“75% of the US population is Christian. 75% of the US prison population is Christian. 10% of the US population is atheist. 0.02% of the US prison population is Atheist. You do not have the higher moral ground.”
If you've got one of the nicer Christians, at this point they will offer to pray for you. The other type will rant and stomp away, probably to get you fired from your job. I'm fortunate enough to have a boss who will tell them no, and that they shouldn't speak with me on the issue if they don't want to be insulted in such a way, and that in fact, they have insulted me by trying to be so forceful. A rare and wonderful thing in my experience.
“No! Don't pray for me! Don't you know that actually increases the chances of my death? Especially if I'm in the hospital. You shouldn't, and if you must, don't say anything. It's not really comforting.”
“You're a bad person!”
“Well, I guess I could act like a good Christian and sell my sister into slavery, stone a few disobedient children to death, and murder and rape non believers, maybe burn a few innocent people at the steak, and learn to hate gay people. You know, like Jesus wanted. Oh! Maybe if I send thousands of innocent children into the Holy Land to be slaughtered if it would help?”
“We are not...”
“And apparently, forget how to read. You know, you can't pick the parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest if it's the infallible word of god. You've got to kill people for working on Sunday or having long hair too you know.”
“You're forgetting about all the charitable work, and good the church does!”
“No. That's kind of like giving community service to a serial killer as punishment. The church has done more harm than good.”
Naturally, this is a compilation, they usually don't hang around for more than a few rounds. Still, the principal is the same. Stand your ground and verbally slug them in the gut. It makes them less likely to push their crap on others. The more of us there are, the harder it becomes for them.
Viva la resistance!
By the way, if you didn't find this the least bit funny, they Jesus has destroyed your sense of humor. Be sure to thank him for it, not that he'll hear you anyway as he's been dead for 2000+ years, but still.
To monitor comments posted to this topic, use
.
Comments
You do, however have some of your facts incorrect. The story of a man being swallowed by a whale in modern times has been exposed on some myth-busters website (which I can't remember the name to) as an urban legend, and untrue.
As well, the assertion that the bible says homosexuals should not be tolerated, is, from my understanding, an interpretation of passages which ambiguously state that a man shall not lie with another man as with a woman. There are also passages which talk about avoiding the "filthy" places of the body. Semen, urine, excrement, have all been interpreted as being filthy.From what I've been taught of this, it's generally intrepreted that there can be no anal sex, between male-male or male-female, and therefore since homosexuals "couple" this way, it's against the Bible.
I hope I haven't missed the mark as far as the facts go.
My wife of 3 years became born again about 2 years ago. While all of her new Christian friends look upon me with pity since I haven't been saved from hell, I look at them pity since they haven't been saved from blind belief. They do, however look at me with tolerance, as I look at them with tolerance. I find no need to be rude to them, as I feel that it brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator. Whenever someone asks me about my own beliefs, I generally say that I hold them very close to me.
I do hope we can all get along -- we're not going to change them, and they're not going to change us. But we all are trying to change each other. It does become hard to take when Christians are compelled to change us, because there "guide" tells them to,but again, we don't need to sink the their level. Be stronger than that !
A "personal" god bothers me less. These kind of people seem not to be religious--they usually call themselves "spiritual." I can accept that. Our brains seem to feel religious type experiences and some people see that as proof there's something more. Until neuroscience is better understood, I can't say much about it.
But the Christian religion--esp those that want to convert others is silly. I have a Catholic family, too. They are progressive Catholics, though. But I do I have a relative who is a cloistered nun. Sometimes I see that as the world's biggest waste of time. It doesn't help anybody to sit in a convent and pray. If it is a meaningful life, it's only meaningful to the nuns who live it.
I feel for you and your situation. I don't see you as a person who forces his atheism on others. Instead, it seems like you challenge people when they try to force their views on you. I don't see anything wrong with that. Nor is it "going to their level."
Tolerant is good. Respect for a ridiculous belief is not. You've got that right.
Sorry but I have to disagree with this. I can be tolerant of people who are tolerant of me. That is, I am not going around flaunting my disbelief on people's faces, but if they try to preach at me, they lose my tolerance and my respect.
Personally, I abstain--whenever possible--from being mean or offensive, but I do assert myself.
I say things like, "So, if you kill your son, you'll be given a life sentence [in Canada], but it is OK for God to kill his own son. Not only that, He calls it love!"
I find that when I speak on these topics, I encounter people who were kind of on the fence. Kind of felt the same way but didn't know they could talk about it. You can actively encourage them with reason and logic, get them to actually take a position.
I feel that we have an *obligation* to spread reason.
Tolerating insanity just doesn't work. We don't have to tolerate it any more.
The other absurd notion, would be that all views and beliefs should be tolerated, universally speaking...
For every belief that is "tolerated", it should be "respected" on the same premise(s).
Why should a person tolerate what they don't respect?
Really. And that's to get from where to where? Forty years to get from Egypt to Israel? On a full bladder I could probably pee that far. They must have gone via Kansas.
Also conspicuous by its absence in the bible is any mention of the pyramids. If ever there was an endeavour well suited to slave labour, it's that. Where are the references to all the construction jobs the Hebrews must have had to do the heavy lifting on?
Bottom line is, it's hard to trust and show respect towards those who have wronged you. If at a young age I was robbed by a white man, would it be right for me to distrust white people for the rest of my life? Just because a white man robbed me once does not mean that all white people are thieves. In the same way, simply because I encounter one intolerant and hateful Christian does not mean that ALL Christians are intolerant and hateful. Categorizing one group of people based on the actions of one or few from that group of people is stereotyping, and I should hope that in the future a person such as yourself who holds reason and logic in the highest regards would not be so illogical and unreasonable as to resort to such ignorance.
Matthew 5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..."
Mark 12:28-31 "One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. NOticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
(that was Jesus speaking by the way...)
So don't you dare ever again say that Jesus hates gays or that Jesus instructed Christians to be intolerant of homosexuals. That statement is as ignorant as it is untrue. Christ wants everyone to love one another. Can I not hate the game of basketball yet love a basketball player as my brother? Am I then a hypocrite? In the same way, can I not disagree with homosexuality, that I believe it is a sin and displeasing in God's sight, yet love a homosexual as my brother?
I think that I can. So while you can sit here at your computer and write your hate-filled post towards Christians and incite others to do the same, I will try to employ the very reason that you follow to show you that you are in fact not listening to reason.
In the meantime, I will try to love the Lord my God the best I can, and to obey all that He instructs me. He tells me that homosexuality is a sin, so I will view it as such. He tells me to love each person as myself, and I will do so. And if then I encounter a homosexual, what should I do? It is simple: I will love that person as myself and hate their sin. Let me say again: I will love that person as myself and hate their SIN. Your sin does not have to define you. If you are gay and your name is John, do people refer to you as "that gay" or as "John"? I will treat John as I would any other person; I will treat him as I would my fellow brother in Christ, and that is with love and respect and patience. And in the same way that hating God is a sin, I will still treat YOU with love and respect and patience, because as much as I may disagree with you and as much as you may frustrate me in how little your mind is, I will love you because it is what my God wants of me.
Okay, for the time being, the thought of anyone believing that any "Christian" could possibly hate a homosexual is unfathomable to you. Nonetheless, "hate" and "prejudice" are like 'cookies and milk', and there is certainly plenty of evidence that there are still people today who use Bronzed-aged "Holy" books to justify their prejudice---one such book being the bible. That is the sad part.
Jeff: I'm sure there are plenty of Christians who hate homosexuals, but this neither means that ALL Christians hate homosexuals nor that it is a Christian quality to hate homosexuals.
Okay, it should be obvious to you that you've just negated your first statement, and you've done so by using the common tactic of making a distinction between yourself, and those "other Christians". You are basically saying that you know which "qualities" make a " True Christian", and the "other Christians" have it all wrong. So let's have a look at the implications of these "Christian qualities", using homosexualality as an example. For instance, according to the "Word of God", Leviticus 20:13 clearly states: "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Now, in concise unambiguous language, the bible says that homosexuals should be put to death. So I'm curious, is this a Christian "quality"?
So again, who are the "True Christians™"?..the people who actually follow the "infallible Word of God"?.....or the people who look at the same words of the same book and try to rationalize what it says?
Jeff: Just because a white man robbed me once does not mean that all white people are thieves. In the same way, simply because I encounter one intolerant and hateful Christian does not mean that ALL Christians are intolerant and hateful.
Firstly, who has said that "ALL" Christians are intolerant and hateful? It seems you are generalizing in the same manner you oppose. Personally, I can separate the belief from the person. It is the religionist who thinks that people's behavior comes solely from their belief, or non-belief....and that "morals" are "Divinely" inspired. I'm arguing that if you are a good and ethical person with your bible under your arm, you'd likely be one without it.
Jeff: [extracts and quotes Matthew 12: 28-31]
Jeff adds: (that was Jesus speaking by the way...)
Um, no it wasn't.....that was you quoting what some other person wrote about "Jesus".
Jeff blathers on: So don't you dare ever again say that Jesus hates gays or that Jesus instructed Christians to be intolerant of homosexuals. That statement is as ignorant as it is untrue.
Look, the bible is either the infallible inspired "Word of God", or it isn't. You can't have it both ways. If it is, then 100 % of it's contents have the seal of approval of "Jesus", since "Jesus is God". If it isn't, then this discussion is over.
Jeff: Christ wants everyone to love one another.
First and foremost, "Christ" wants everyone to love "Him", and for the balance of people who don't, "Christ" has a hot place in "hell" for them. Some "love".
Jeff: Can I not hate the game of basketball yet love a basketball player as my brother? Am I then a hypocrite? In the same way, can I not disagree with homosexuality, that I believe it is a sin and displeasing in God's sight, yet love a homosexual as my brother?
You can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, and love who you want to love. Yet, you are in defiance of the holy book that you implicity subscribe to. If you believe the bible is the inspired "Word of God", and that "God's Word" is intrinsically "good", yet, you don't follow God's commands, then yeah.....you're being hypocritical.
Jeff: So while you can sit here at your computer and write your hate-filled post towards Christians and incite others to do the same, I will try to employ the very reason that you follow to show you that you are in fact not listening to reason.
Check this out, friend. Being outwardly vocal against a belief system that causes division, wars, and bigotry isn't unreasonable. Furthermore, as long as people subscribe, either explicitly, or implicitly, to a belief system that condones the killing of those who don't conform to it's "one size fits all" doctrines, then I'll speak out against it, when, how, and where I see fit, especially when the ministering is coming from a 20 yr old arm-chair philosopher who apparently doesn't know his own holy book.
Jeff: In the meantime, I will try to love the Lord my God the best I can, and to obey all that He instructs me.
Let's review: You are in defiance of your "Lord" and doing as he "instructs".
Jeff: And if then I encounter a homosexual, what should I do? It is simple: I will love that person as myself and hate their sin. Let me say again: I will love that person as myself and hate their SIN.
Let's review, again, how the bible--the "Word of God"---says to handle homosexuals:
"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."(Leviticus 20:13)
Questions?
Jeff: And in the same way that hating God is a sin, I will still treat YOU with love and respect and patience, because as much as I may disagree with you and as much as you may frustrate me in how little your mind is, I will love you because it is what my God wants of me.
First, we don't "hate God" anymore than you "hate" the Great Pumpkin. You obviously haven't read too many of the testimonies here(if any at all) thus, showing that you're here to preach, not to learn and/or listen.
BTW, your idea of showing "respect" is calling people "ignorant" and telling them they have "little" minds? Awww....that's nice.
Sean, that rocks!
Jeff, do you NOT understand that while ALL xtians don't hate homosexuals, there is a not-insubstantial and very powerful and vocal minority that does? Has it escaped you that some of these people hold powerful positions in our government?
Tell us, do - where are the xtians that disagree with that powerful and vocal minority? Where are all of the loving and tolerant xtians? Some even say that they are the majority, so why don't they speak up if they don't want to be lumped in with the haters?
If a person gets robbed by someone insane, does that mean that all insane people are robbers? No, but they're all involved with insanity to some degree.
Anony', there's a big difference between an idea, or concept, being "hard to understand", and a idea, or concept, being conceptually impossible. In other words, Anony', Geometry might be "hard to understand"....however, a "square circle" can never be understood, or realized, because it's an impossible concept. 'Follow?
In the same regard, a "God" who is "ALL-loving", yet, who only loves those who reciprocate that "love", is a contradicting concept(non-existent). There IS no way to "understand it", as it's implied, unless you completely eliminate one or the other of the variables. The same holds true with a "God" who is both "omniscient", and who has "freewill". If "God" knows the future, then that future is fixed; there are no "choices" to be made, thus, nothing to deliberate on. If the former varibles hold true, then "God" has zero use for "freewill", since the future is fixed..i.e..a "plan". On the other hand, if you insist that this "God" of yours does have "freewill", then your invisible friend isn't "omniscient". Choices, choices, eh?
Right, right....you "believe" in Jesus, even if a considerable amount of the time, the number one source of "information" for Jesus' existence makes zero sense. Um, that's called faith. And the problem with beliefs being supported by "faith", is that, now all of the sudden, there becomes an INFINITE number of "beliefs" to be held as "true" based on "faith": I have "faith" that there are transparent pixies living in my vegetable garden; I have "faith" that there's a golden teapot orbiting Uranus; I have "faith" that aliens will be picking me up at Disney World next weekend---and on, and on, and on.
Now, hopefully you can see how I just knocked the wind out of "faith", as a means for determining "truth".
BTW, before you go there---it would be a moot point to say, "Yeah, but some things are more believable than others"--- because in order to do so, you'd need to revert to observable "facts", which, this defeats the whole purpose of "faith" in the first place.