A very happy heathen
sent in by Lisa
I grew up Catholic, following what my parents taught me, thinking
Christianity was normal and universal to everyone. But even though I didn’t
know anyone of a different religion (or none at all), when I was very
young, probably around 7 or so, I started questioning religion. My
parents always told me that one must know Jesus to gain entrance to the
kingdom of heaven. I didn’t think that was very fair. I remember asking,
“What if there was some remote tribe in the jungle somewhere that didn’t
know about Jesus.. would they go to hell?” My mom said, “Well, that’s
why we have missionaries, to tell them about Jesus.”
But I would ask the question again, insisting that there must be some
extremely remote tribe that missionaries couldn’t get to. My mom’s
answer was, “No, they had no way of knowing about Jesus so God would
probably be merciful with them and judge them on their character instead.” At
first, it made sense to me but then I said, “Then WHY do we send
missionaries out to tell them about Jesus? I mean, if you tell them about
Jesus and they decide that Christianity isn’t for them, you’ve doomed all
those people to hell! Why can they just leave people alone and don’t
tell them about Jesus and then they’ll just go to heaven?” My parents
never could reply directly to my answers. To questions such as this one, I
always wound up with an answer that wasn’t an answer. And in this
particular situation, they would say, “Life is better if you know about God
and Jesus. I can’t imagine what life would be without Jesus.”
My life continued this way. Even at a young age, I always questioned
God and religion and church. I hated it. I am hard of hearing (severe to
profound hearing loss) and my parent made me go to Catholic mass every
Sunday morning. It was the same damn service every time except for the
sermon and a few gospels thrown in. I could never hear a damn thing
anyway, with the echoing and the crappy sound system. I fell asleep
constantly and would get punished for it or dragged outside the church for a
spanking. I’d try to sneak in books to read instead. Sometimes my mom
would let me read books as long as it was religious-themed book. Heh. I
even read “Are You There God, It’s Me Margaret” because it had “God” in
the title and my mother was completely oblivious of popular culture so
she accepted it as a religious book.
Growing up, I’ve never had this “feeling”, this “god-high” feeling
about religion EVER! I never quite got what everyone was crazy about. My
parents were ok with other denominations so, as a teen, I went on youth
group trips with my friends (Church of Christ) for the free ski-trips,
to meet boys and to go camping without my parents’ supervision. On these
trips, these normal every day teens would turn into Jesus freaks around
the campfire, filled with the Holy Spirit. They’d cry and sob and weep
and moan and praise god. I tried. I really did. I wanted to feel what
they were feeling. I even faked it to fit in. But I never understood why
they would be weeping and would lose all bodily control like the people
you’d see on TBN when Benny Hinn would throw his coat or push people
down with the holy spirit. To me, all that drama felt too… fake.
I think there are people who truly believe in it and let their emotions
overpower them. In fact, the only time I had ever gotten close to that
feeling was the feeling I’d get at Christmas and not because of Jesus
but because of Santa.. waaaaay back when I thought he was real. I was so
excited, practically “high” every Christmas morning just knowing that
Santa was in our house only a few hours ago! It felt.. magical,
wonderful, mystical… I imagine it was very similar to the feelings that these
teens were experiencing by the campfire at church camp.
Fast forward to college. By this time, I had abandoned Church, knowing
that I’d never get anything out of it. Additionally, I got engaged to a
great guy but he wasn’t religious, or a practicing Christian. I don’t
think my mother quite understood why I was so happy to spend time with a
“god-less” man. I also met more people with different faiths and
different sexualities. I never quite understood why being gay, lesbian or
bisexual was wrong.. two wonderful people of the same sex love each other
and they’re doomed to hell for it? Or if you’re a jew, you’re also
doomed to hell because you refuse to accept Christ? (those exact words
actually came out of my “loving, Christian” uncle’s mouth).
I became more independent, studied Buddhism and Wicca. My mother didn’t
like the change in me, my constant questioning of religion and my
secular “World Religion” courses in college. She would tell me I was
possessed by the devil and even tried to drive a “demon” out of me. At that
moment, when she was trying to “exorcise me”, I looked at my mother in
utter disbelief and horror and told her, “This is me, not a demon. If you
don’t like the way I am and my beliefs or lack thereof, you don’t have
to speak to me again.” She continued to pray over me and I walked out
of the room.
I moved out shortly afterward and never looked back. It’s been over ten
years since that ridiculous “possession” experience. My “god-less”
husband and I are married with two wonderful children and are far happier
than most of our religious friends and family members (many of whom are
in unhappy marriages or are divorced now). I firmly believe it’s
because we are true to ourselves and actually solve our problems rather than
praying about it or believing that Jesus will take care of it. We are
realists and are not uptight about sex issues; we are just honest, real
people not afraid of questions or new ideas.
After further soul searching and coming to realize that Adam & Eve,
Noah’s Ark, walking on water, The Tower of Babel, Immaculate Conception,
etcetera, etcetera are a bunch of fairytales that existed in other pagan
religions years and years ago (not to mention all of the “Christian”
holidays) I finally absolutely put the idea of Christianity to rest. I’m
actually proud to say I’m not a Christian and am no longer scared of
being doomed to hell.
Where am I now? I’m not an atheist but I have utmost respect and am
friends with several atheists. I hate labels but I would have to say I’m
pretty agnostic. I think there is a god or at least souls or a higher
power beyond this flesh, blood and bone that we all have in us. I’ve had
too many strange occurrences happen to me: ghost sightings, voices, out
of body experiences, etcetera to think that we are flesh and that is
it. But I’m extremely open-minded. If there is a god/gods, I don’t think
we have to believe in him/her/it. We need to just be the best person we
can be and think independently. Far too many wars, jihads, holocausts,
murders, etc have been waged in the name of religion. If a god exists,
I highly doubt he/she/it would be proud. People need to stop with this
“pack mentality” and start thinking for themselves and what is truly
best for the world.
Cincinnati
OH
USA
Joined: Since Birth
Left: About 18 but finally gave it up for good at 29
Was: Used to be Catholic
Now: Agnostic
Converted because: I was born and raised Catholic
De-converted because: I began thinking for myself and stopped being scared of the truth.
I grew up Catholic, following what my parents taught me, thinking
Christianity was normal and universal to everyone. But even though I didn’t
know anyone of a different religion (or none at all), when I was very
young, probably around 7 or so, I started questioning religion. My
parents always told me that one must know Jesus to gain entrance to the
kingdom of heaven. I didn’t think that was very fair. I remember asking,
“What if there was some remote tribe in the jungle somewhere that didn’t
know about Jesus.. would they go to hell?” My mom said, “Well, that’s
why we have missionaries, to tell them about Jesus.”
But I would ask the question again, insisting that there must be some
extremely remote tribe that missionaries couldn’t get to. My mom’s
answer was, “No, they had no way of knowing about Jesus so God would
probably be merciful with them and judge them on their character instead.” At
first, it made sense to me but then I said, “Then WHY do we send
missionaries out to tell them about Jesus? I mean, if you tell them about
Jesus and they decide that Christianity isn’t for them, you’ve doomed all
those people to hell! Why can they just leave people alone and don’t
tell them about Jesus and then they’ll just go to heaven?” My parents
never could reply directly to my answers. To questions such as this one, I
always wound up with an answer that wasn’t an answer. And in this
particular situation, they would say, “Life is better if you know about God
and Jesus. I can’t imagine what life would be without Jesus.”
My life continued this way. Even at a young age, I always questioned
God and religion and church. I hated it. I am hard of hearing (severe to
profound hearing loss) and my parent made me go to Catholic mass every
Sunday morning. It was the same damn service every time except for the
sermon and a few gospels thrown in. I could never hear a damn thing
anyway, with the echoing and the crappy sound system. I fell asleep
constantly and would get punished for it or dragged outside the church for a
spanking. I’d try to sneak in books to read instead. Sometimes my mom
would let me read books as long as it was religious-themed book. Heh. I
even read “Are You There God, It’s Me Margaret” because it had “God” in
the title and my mother was completely oblivious of popular culture so
she accepted it as a religious book.
Growing up, I’ve never had this “feeling”, this “god-high” feeling
about religion EVER! I never quite got what everyone was crazy about. My
parents were ok with other denominations so, as a teen, I went on youth
group trips with my friends (Church of Christ) for the free ski-trips,
to meet boys and to go camping without my parents’ supervision. On these
trips, these normal every day teens would turn into Jesus freaks around
the campfire, filled with the Holy Spirit. They’d cry and sob and weep
and moan and praise god. I tried. I really did. I wanted to feel what
they were feeling. I even faked it to fit in. But I never understood why
they would be weeping and would lose all bodily control like the people
you’d see on TBN when Benny Hinn would throw his coat or push people
down with the holy spirit. To me, all that drama felt too… fake.
I think there are people who truly believe in it and let their emotions
overpower them. In fact, the only time I had ever gotten close to that
feeling was the feeling I’d get at Christmas and not because of Jesus
but because of Santa.. waaaaay back when I thought he was real. I was so
excited, practically “high” every Christmas morning just knowing that
Santa was in our house only a few hours ago! It felt.. magical,
wonderful, mystical… I imagine it was very similar to the feelings that these
teens were experiencing by the campfire at church camp.
Fast forward to college. By this time, I had abandoned Church, knowing
that I’d never get anything out of it. Additionally, I got engaged to a
great guy but he wasn’t religious, or a practicing Christian. I don’t
think my mother quite understood why I was so happy to spend time with a
“god-less” man. I also met more people with different faiths and
different sexualities. I never quite understood why being gay, lesbian or
bisexual was wrong.. two wonderful people of the same sex love each other
and they’re doomed to hell for it? Or if you’re a jew, you’re also
doomed to hell because you refuse to accept Christ? (those exact words
actually came out of my “loving, Christian” uncle’s mouth).
I became more independent, studied Buddhism and Wicca. My mother didn’t
like the change in me, my constant questioning of religion and my
secular “World Religion” courses in college. She would tell me I was
possessed by the devil and even tried to drive a “demon” out of me. At that
moment, when she was trying to “exorcise me”, I looked at my mother in
utter disbelief and horror and told her, “This is me, not a demon. If you
don’t like the way I am and my beliefs or lack thereof, you don’t have
to speak to me again.” She continued to pray over me and I walked out
of the room.
I moved out shortly afterward and never looked back. It’s been over ten
years since that ridiculous “possession” experience. My “god-less”
husband and I are married with two wonderful children and are far happier
than most of our religious friends and family members (many of whom are
in unhappy marriages or are divorced now). I firmly believe it’s
because we are true to ourselves and actually solve our problems rather than
praying about it or believing that Jesus will take care of it. We are
realists and are not uptight about sex issues; we are just honest, real
people not afraid of questions or new ideas.
After further soul searching and coming to realize that Adam & Eve,
Noah’s Ark, walking on water, The Tower of Babel, Immaculate Conception,
etcetera, etcetera are a bunch of fairytales that existed in other pagan
religions years and years ago (not to mention all of the “Christian”
holidays) I finally absolutely put the idea of Christianity to rest. I’m
actually proud to say I’m not a Christian and am no longer scared of
being doomed to hell.
Where am I now? I’m not an atheist but I have utmost respect and am
friends with several atheists. I hate labels but I would have to say I’m
pretty agnostic. I think there is a god or at least souls or a higher
power beyond this flesh, blood and bone that we all have in us. I’ve had
too many strange occurrences happen to me: ghost sightings, voices, out
of body experiences, etcetera to think that we are flesh and that is
it. But I’m extremely open-minded. If there is a god/gods, I don’t think
we have to believe in him/her/it. We need to just be the best person we
can be and think independently. Far too many wars, jihads, holocausts,
murders, etc have been waged in the name of religion. If a god exists,
I highly doubt he/she/it would be proud. People need to stop with this
“pack mentality” and start thinking for themselves and what is truly
best for the world.
Cincinnati
OH
USA
Joined: Since Birth
Left: About 18 but finally gave it up for good at 29
Was: Used to be Catholic
Now: Agnostic
Converted because: I was born and raised Catholic
De-converted because: I began thinking for myself and stopped being scared of the truth.
Comments
Sometimes its good to know were all of this bullshit came from.I have been doing some intensive searches to get to some of the truth, so that when these brainwashed fools called chistains approach with their smug,know-it-all manner I like to shoot them down in flames.
· The spread of Chistianity· The Mithraic sun cult was still holding sway over Christians in Rome in the first three centuries AD. In fact emperor Constantine never abandoned sun worship and kept the sun on his coins. He retained the title of Pontifex Maximus, high priest of the heathen state religion. The pagan festival of the birthday of the sun: Sol Invictus, on December 25th at the winter stolstice, was adopted as the birthday of Jesus. The pagan custom was to cut green branches and hanging little lights on them. Our Christmas tree! At that occasion presents were given in the god's name. The ancient sign of life, the ankh, known for thousands of years, was transformed into the Christian cross; the figure of Isis nursing her child Horus, Isis Lactans, became the figure of Virgin Mary with Jesus at her breast .The weekly day devoted to Sol, Sunday, replaced the Jewish sabbath on Saturday.Existing devil-sacrifices were replaced by processions in a saint's honor, with an offering of oxen to the glory of God. · With the council of Nicea in 325 under emperor Constantine the Christian doctrine became crystalized. Gnostic and other deviant views were banned. Only the accepted canonical scriptures were tolerated, the other apocryphal works were destined to go into oblivion.Newly conceived ideas of 'church' (ecclesia), 'faith' and 'religio', religious practices, structural organization with various ecclestical levels were introduced to make it an institution which could be manipulated by whatever state accepted its practice to keep their people under control !!!!!!· After Constantine emperor Theodosus I made Christianity into a state religion in 392 AD. Pagan worship was banned thereafter and persecuted. Christians who did not agree with the Nicene Creed were forcefully converted or slaughtered. In 401 AD Mary was declared to be the Virgin Mother.· Around the year 500 another surge of expectation of the end of the world roused the emotions. It would not be the only instance in the centuries to follow.· From the fifth century onward traces of paganism were erased radically. Existing customs were converted into Christian practices: worship of saints and martyrs, instead of the ancient gods, pilgrimages to their tombs, incense burning, exorcisms and prophecies, became part of Christian life.· Alas, the new religion brought no peace. Armies still fought wars. There was hardly any social reform. The distinction between classes only grew. So did inequality in distribution of wealth.· The Church acquired more and more possessions and grew to a powerful institution. Religious intolerance was greater than ever before. · It also became the first Middle Eastern independent systematical religious organisation. Centuries later it served to be an appealing model in the formation of that other great religion: Islam.
Your story is appealing and interesting. Thank you for sharing it. You were insighful since chilhood, very insightful. I wonder if the fact that you were/are hard of hearing gave your brain extra time to process the information better than many of us who remained in the religion longer than you did.
Wow, you were pretty cluey at 7.
I had similar questions about the native tribe thing at a similar age, but it took me another 20 years to realise the answers you came up with.
Darn it. :)
I am sorry to hear about what your mother did to you, but you did the right thing by standing up for yourself. Not many people can do that because it takes a great deal of courage.
I especially agree with you that we should spend our time being the best person we can be. I personally think the reason we're here on earth is to improve ourselves and grow up. After all, if God is the perfect parent, without an ego or with human frailities, then God would most likely be interested in seeing his/her/it's creations grow up into responsible, mature beings.
-bible
It sounds like you were Catholic, never Christian. As far as your questions, there are viable intellectual answers. You will never have 100% certainity about anything in this life as evident by your lingering belief that there might be a God.
Where might this doubt come from? Perhaps it originates from a subconscious desire to avoid an endless regress of naturalistic mechanisms that fail to explain the universes' origins or human life (e.g., evolution is one such circle of absurdity).
Let me encourage you to continue to search for the truth. I believe it will lead you to the one who said that he was the Truth (John 14:6). Of course, I'm just a brainwashed Christian, who was once an athiest, that decided to really be open-minded and examine the overwhelming evidence for the risen Christ of Christianity.
www.risenjesus.com
You really ARE brainwashed. You have spent your whole life in christianity. You make me feel good, at least I didn't give my life entirely to it like you did. I only wasted two hours every morning reading the bible and praying.
I belive that a big myth was made out of some great 1st-century guy called Jesus.
A few years ago, a great guy, a bishop was assasinated in my homeland. He was a pursuer of justice and was loving to every one who knew him.
Within days of his death, people were reporting sightings, miracles, and had built shrines to him.
I have experienced first hand how given to "idolatry" human beings are. It wouldn't have been difficult for 1st-century people to create a bunch of stories about Jesus. I know you think you have evidence in your website, but in my experience, christianity doesn't work. It is just religion.
' Like it or not, evolution is both "theory" and FACT, just like Atomic "theory" is both theory and fact. On the other hand, Creationism..aka "Intelligent Design" is neither. That's, NEITHER. Now, what's an "absurdity" is that people living in this day and age still reject evolution in lieu of a myth. Lame.
Quote: "I'm just a brainwashed Christian, *who was once an atheist..."
It amazes me how some Christians are always quick to point out how they "used to be an Atheist", as if it has some relevance to making an "objective" transformation. Yoo hoo? YOU WERE BORN an Atheist, you bumbling jackass! lol!
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Jesus is the only way to heaven. All other religions lead to hell. So, "AFBC", it appears you traded a position where you didn't have a supernatural "god", and you had the ultimate range of freedom to be a great steward to society, to a position of bigotry, hatred, and contempt for non-christians, while spewing everyone will be in hell according to John, except those who follow the only "True" god. Congratulations on becoming a True Asshole/Christian Evangelical.
Was John, Jesus?
Was John, god?
John who???
John Doe #1, #2, #3, etc. etc.????
' Like it or not, evolution is both "theory" and FACT, just like Atomic "theory" is both theory and fact. On the other hand, Creationism..aka "Intelligent Design" is neither. That's, NEITHER. Now, what's an "absurdity" is that people living in this day and age still reject evolution in lieu of a myth. Lame.
Reply: Unlike you (most likely) I possess a degree in cellular biology, and I have actually studied the subject in question (i.e., evolution). We can, if you desire, enter into a discussion concerning first mechanisms and dependent cellular systems. We'll see how long you last before you are exposed as an ignorant person, which is not a bad thing as it means you are simply without knowledge. However, if it is willful ignorance-that makes you a stupid person who survies by regurgitating other ignorant or stupid peoples' off-the-cuff comments in order to support your chosen belief system.
Quote: "I'm just a brainwashed Christian, *who was once an atheist..."
It amazes me how some Christians are always quick to point out how they "used to be an Atheist", as if it has some relevance to making an "objective" transformation. Yoo hoo? YOU WERE BORN an Atheist, you bumbling jackass! lol!
Reply: Like you might as an "ex-christian," huh?
You should probally study informal logic. It'll help your faulty thinking.
Reply: What do you base your concept of being a "good steward to society" on? What defines good steward anyways, if not some objective truth untouchable by subjective desires? How can you even talk about what is good? Have you received some special revelation from a god or is it revelation deriving from a made-in-your-image idol
Come now let us reason...
I am not Mike Licona. My name is Rick. I just linked you to his site. My aologies for your confusion.
You mean like spontaneous generation once was (or still is according to evolution).
Lame.
I'd have to agree with the above comment Pluto, such thinking is truly lame!
Uh, does a degree offer certitude of information? I would suggest that many have degrees in society, does that make them intelligent? Obviously not.
ABCANSSS: "We can, if you desire, enter into a discussion concerning first mechanisms and dependent cellular systems."
Uh, a god creates mud dolls, and breathes a spirit into their orifices, and creates organic life? But, no... you want to be cute, and talk about dependent cellular systems.
Are you asserting that first mechanisms, or dependent cellular systems offer insight into some "Absolute" answer to support your belief of a "god"? If so, I have to admit that I am just a simple bumpkin meself, and haven't got my edumacation with a fancy cellular biology stamp.
However, as I was looking at the comics on my bazooka bubble gum wrapper, I saw this cartoon that was really funny, it was talking about the cyclin-dependent kinases process, and the role and function of CDK9. I know, the WM has tried to put scratch and sniffs on the website for those who aren't as edumacated as little people like me, but can you explain the dependence rate of CDK9 within the CDK process, and its regulatory function within the bounds of Leland H. Hartwell, R. Timothy Hunt, and Paul M. Nurse's findings... which won them the holy grail 2001 Nobel Prize in Physiology/Medicine, thanks.
And, I truly enjoy learning, so I can figure out all da' nice stuffs I live around. If you want to delve into some micro-b, ecol, organic/inorganic chem, its been a few years, but... as a humble learner, I hope to keep up with you, I just want the Absolute Truth so I can go on, and live my life in da' peace.
ABCANSSS: "We'll see how long you last before you are exposed as an ignorant person, which is not a bad thing as it means you are simply without knowledge."
However, simple wittle me can learn, and accept information when presented, and I am all ears.
ABCANSSS: "However, if it is willful ignorance-that makes you a stupid person who survies by regurgitating other ignorant or stupid peoples' off-the-cuff comments in order to support your chosen belief system."
Well, give me some information that will allow me to support my belief system with more rigor, I am looking for that Absolute answer in life, come on, gimme, gimme, gimme.
ABCANSSS: "You should probally study informal logic. It'll help your faulty thinking."
Argumentum ad hominem, impotentia...
Uh, not "John", asshole, you or some other lame dumbass, made the comment not I.
BCTB: "What defines good steward anyways,"
Seems subjective to me...
BCTB: "...if not some objective truth untouchable by subjective desires? How can you even talk about what is good?"
Relatively.
BCTB: "Have you received some special revelation from a god or is it revelation deriving from a made-in-your-image idol."
Gee, nope, I believe in relativism, John, the asshole, believes in god, and all non-christians going to hell - Absolutely. Now, between me and John, I am the one who is relatively speaking from a non-absolute stance, which allows people to coexist without malice, its called tolerance, and multiple views and values can be equally valid.
However, John the asshole, seems to think its his way, or the hell-highway, as an Absolutist. Perhaps, "YOU", want to support your Absolutist view of the bible, and John the asshole.
Photons are spontaneous within a vacuum, or... are they. Why don't you research that and get back to us. I'm prepared to be awed by someone with as much insight as you. Oh, and while you are preparing your answer for the quantum physics question, can you please provide the class with the most critical element in the photosynthesis process, a.k.a. organic life, I'm sure someone with all these Absolute answers can pump that one out, I mean, that's middle school info, get on it.
Okay, by all means. Prove your god. Talking about the natural sciences, isnt' going to prove your supernatural god who does parlor tricks on his offtime. So, what, are you going to try and play stump the chump, with your middle school questions and throw doubt on those who have natural beliefs to make your supernatural belief more valid? Uh, that's the little high school trick, where the ones who wanted to be popular laughed at other people, so they would be self elevated and appear to be more than they were.
If you want to self validate yourself, like a self licking ice cream cone, go for it. Your attack on the natural sciences, doesn't make your supernatural god any more real, and the natural sciences will "always" have more credibility that the supernatural belief systems, because there is "something" to "start" the belief system from.
There is no "beginning" or "end", in christian theology, the Alpha and Omega are "god", your god, is a mirrored, and symbolized as a circular reason, that's faulty logic, there bubbah.
How does one find a point in a circle to prove "beginning", christian theology has no where to begin, except in the subjective writings of a canon, that has an intolerant asshole called John spewing hate.
That bit was just for the person who typed "Awesome, girl. Welcome. I'm new here, but I'm so happy to be among the wounded who understand."
"To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, To guide our feet into the way of peace." Luke 1
This bit I put toward the words "I wish you peace in ANY way you can find it"
To Lisa I have only the words of the Word of God to show me what it is to know what I am to do in this world, I found this not because of the cult organisation called Catholicism has deemed acceptable.. and many other denonominations that would lead man away from the true path of rightousness (God's will), I have it from my own logic of the testimonies in the Bible and the nuturing of the Holy Spirit in my heart and the help of fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3
My hats off to you.