Not Your Typical Ex-Timony

sent in by Gary

This isn’t an extimony in the usual sense that you normally see here on this website. I have been a lurker here for a few months now. I have read many of the extimonies written by former Christians. With out a doubt I believe these folks are very sincere in there contributions here. As you can read from their posts you can see how sincerely they sought out the God of the Bible and failed to find this very elusive being.

Of course we have a very diverse community of people who come to this website. I suppose most folks have become agnostics or atheists since their deconversion from Christianity. But we do have a sprinkling of pagan, wiccan, or similar types of beliefs. Nothing wrong with that either. Personally I don’t put any more credence to their claims that I would the Christian claims.

But if a Non-Christian belief system works for you I will not argue with your results. Non-Christians seem to be much less annoying in that I haven’t been pestered by any to convert to their particular belief system. Plus they seem to be much happier in general.

I am not particularly religious myself. I have held a number of spiritual views over the years. My parents were not very steady church goers. Occasionally we went to a Baptist church about a mile or so up the road. It didn’t make much of a believer out of me at the time. I had more fun reading science books and learning as much as I could about things at the time.

When I got of high school I flirted for awhile with some New Age ideas such as astrology, oujia boards, automatic writing and so forth. I was rather disappointed by the results. Then I came across an ad in Fate Magazine for a Rosicrucian Society. I joined that for awhile. This proved to be a little more interesting. I guess I stayed a member for a couple of years or so.

Then I got caught up into a popular Bible Cult of the 1970’s. No it wasn’t the Moonies. It was something called The Way. Fortunately, I got invited to leave their cult because I kept asking too many questions.

After that I studied ceremonial magick and dabbled in the teachings of The Golden Dawn. The results were rather mixed but the material is fascinating to study.

Lately I have discovered the works of Ayn Rand and her wonderful philosophy called Objectivism. Never have I discovered a more practical philosophy. I wish I had encountered it years ago.

Occasionally some Christian troll comes here and spews forth their propaganda. What I have enjoyed the most though is all of the wonderful comments their drive by posts generate. It is great to see many folks who have woke up to the hoaxes of religion.

One of the problems with religious teachings are they are very seductive. What do I mean by this comment? Religious teachings hold out the promise of wisdom. Who wouldn’t want that? If you are experiencing major problems in your life religious teachings become even more enticing.

You go in expecting to gain something extremely important and mysterious. People just love to solve a mystery. Most folks who decide to follow a spiritual path do so because they are seeking honesty, enlightenment, truths, or a desire to give their live some kind of meaning. They are seeking an ideal way to live an deal with others.

Unfortunately they will find none of these things. More often it will be years later before they will realize that the wisdom that they sought was in reality nothing but a hoax. The true enlightenment comes when you realize that religious teachings are totally false. It makes me wonder how many ministers and pastors are “closet atheists?”

In a future post I will offer some possible origins for why people seek out spiritual paths.

Columbia
Missouri
USA
How old were you when you became a christian? 20
How old were you when you ceased being a christian? 22
What labels, if any, would you apply to yourself now? FreeThinker Skeptic
Why did you become a christian? Because of the false guilt and the threat of hell.
Why did you de-convert? Many reasons! Further research into the origins of the Bible and Christianity itself raised doubts. Plus really reading the Bible was an eye opener!
email: harcortm at yahoo dot com

52 comments:

Thackerie said...

Thanks for your post. It was very interesting.

Glad you got out of The Way. These creeps tried to convert me when I was in college. They didn't really have a chance since they were so poorly thought of on campus. (We smart-alecky kids voted their student leader "Most Likely to Become a Sniper.") Anyway, I've since found out that this is a dangerous cult that is currently stockpiling an arsenal at its headquarters in Emporium, Kansas, in preparation for Armageddon. Ugh!

Interested Atheist said...

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "get out of the way!"
Thank you for your story, and congratulations.

Anonymous said...

Interesting... It's Emporia, KS -- not Emporium BTW. The Way seems to have fallen on hard times according to this article.

brigid said...

Hi Gary and welcome to the fold.

Baaaa.

I know about this outfit called "The Way". They have this training program that involves signing up for video tapes or something like that. I was talking to these chicks and everything revolves around this training; this indoctrination.

Ayn Rand did me a world of good. I still have the hots for Dagny.

To all my friends here: I gotta be gone from the keyboard for awhile. Mistress is concerned about my well-being and wants to take me on a road trip. Me has been feelin' a bit down lately.......this is a "hangover" from my catholic days. This is weird. Ya know, I'm glad I'm out, and I'm glad I am living my own life, but that shit comes back to haunt me now and then.

All you kids out there, be careful. It can happen. That fear and guilt can surface like athelete's foot. That is why we need to come here.

Hope to see you all Monday or Tuesday. Special hi to Ubergeek and Lorena.

jim earl said...

Thanks for your post, Gary. It was different and I enjoyed reading it. I had never heard of "The Way" but glad you go outta there too. I went straight from the Nazarene faith to agnostic to atheist. It wasn't quite that quick but once the faith was gone, it was gone for good. I never had the idea to search for another religion, although for my wife's sake, we tried several different churches. Anyway, that's all behind me now and I guess this site is my church. LoL. Cheers and good luck.

Anonymous said...

Nice post .....

I was a christian ( mormon) and well i got out of it at age 16 didnt like them telling me NOT to ask questions.

I have been a pagan ever since , but not like the stuff you see on TV and the hollywood movies. I am a solitairy ecclectic witch and i dont follow any type of groups cause i find them no diffent then some christian churches.
I do have a sign outside my window saying : IF YOU ARE A CHURCH GROUP TRYING TO SELL ME YOUR RELIGION, READ THE SIGN NEXT TO THIS ONE IT SAYS NO TRASPASSING.

Anonymous said...

You said: Non-Christians seem to be much less annoying in that I haven’t been pestered by any to convert to their particular belief system. Plus they seem to be much happier in general.

I guess you haven't been close to many Muslims...

BoyGod666 said...

I really agree with your comment about atheists in the pulpit. I have long held that view. You know most of them know the whole God thing is bullshit...

Bentley said...

I'd say all preachers are closet Atheists, they've made such a grand fool of themselves and stole the members money, they know if they were to admit it's all a bullshit lie, there are some members willing to hang them right there in the church.

After all, after finding out that their preacher is a fraud and thus religion and Heaven and Hell is a fraud, the members would figure WTF? there's no Hell for punishment, might as well kill that SOB for lying and stealing their money, their trust, their minds, their lives.

They all need to be run out of the USA, let them preach their bullshit in Iran, if they can convert a Muslim country to Christianity, then Christianity must certainly be true!

Harcortm said...

Thanks for all of the wonderful comments.

John said...

Ben, you can't really feel that all Christian preachers should be run out of the country. I'm sure that you respect their right to say what they believe, just as you want people to respect your right to do the same. Otherwise, you should add members of other religions to your list of future expulsions - Jews, who believe that they're God's Chosen (sound like anyone that you know?); and Muslims, who don't think that you should have the right to be anything but a Muslim.

A lot of us need to remember that Muslims will be just as terrifying as fundamentalist Christian evangelists if their numbers ever reach critical mass in America. Right now, Mexico is making that difficult, as most Mexican immigrants are Catholic, but people convert to Islam every day. Don't neglect one enemy by focusing too much on another.

freedy said...

Welcome, ...love your post,..the word that stood out was seductive.
I have felt a tugging seductive
luring back to christianity,..not the literalist,but the universalist
cult.I hav'nt found any new age/spiritualism as comforting as the bad news of the hell and heaven myth,but I continue to walk alone.(except for my friends here at (X).)
I look forward to your future post on why we need to seek out "spiritual" or higher powers!

freedy said...

After spending most of my life in
service to the church, I have found little out here to replace or fulfill the need to share my talent or altruistic longings.
Forgive my moodiness tonight!

Anonymous said...

A site and story to check out:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/vincent_runyon/left_ministry.html#c12

Sorry it's so long, but well worth the read.

Anonymous said...

I see the website didn't all publish. Not up on how this all works.

Anonymous said...

It DID publish!

Bentley said...

anonymous wrote,
A site and story to check out:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/vincent_runyon/left_ministry.html#c12

Sorry it's so long, but well worth the read.

5/06/2006 7:21 AM


Very good site! Sounds alot like us!

Please anonymous, make up a name and join us in discussion.

Thanks, Ben

harcortm said...

Thanks for the link. I have been looking for that one for a long time.

.:webmaster:. said...

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Anonymous said...

Ben, Thanks for the invite to join in the discussion, but I haven't got anything original to say that hasn't been said already. I've very much enjoyed reading everyone elses great testimonies and comments on this site, which I've been visiting regularly for some time. (Been a happy athiest for 5 yrs.)

Lorena said...

Freedy,

I am sorry you are feeling down. When I feel like that, I find the ex-christian.net forums really helpful. Perhaps you can start a thread telling people how you are feeling and everyone will share their experiences with you.

Remember, religion is an addiction. It pulls you back in the same way as alcohol and drugs.

Also, you inspired me to write a bit on spirituality on my blog.

.:webmaster:. said...

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.:webmaster:. said...

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toxic said...

I liked your point about how many clergymen are secret atheists - I remember my school chaplain telling me that the immaculate conception was nothing but a fairy story.

brigid said...

I'm back, kids. I was down the coast for a few days and had loads of fun and have had my demons purged. Let me tell you what the devil is: the devil is this little insect thing that lives in your head. If you stimulate it with fear and guilt, it grows into this foul, slobbering monster that takes over your life. It is the worst thing that can happen to you.

So be good, or be bad, but keep that bug in its place.

Anonymous said...

Hi Gary, hi Freedy, hi Brigid (no hierarchy implied)

Just a couple remarks to your posts:

First of all, I checked out objectivism once, but didn't stay there all that long. It's perhaps a very good philosophy for fresh exchristians. It's really quite objective and very refreshing. The only flaw in my opinion is that objectivists insist that we have free will. I don't think so.

I would also like to add that a spiritual path is not necessarily the same as a religious path. I can't give you a hard and fast definition, the two areas do overlap. Generally I would say religion is more about what the word actually means, namely reunion with a God, while spirituality is more about seeing that we have never been separate from God in the first place, so no religion or reunion is required or even possible. We are already "that", or "I am that" (I recommend the book by Nisargadatta Maharaj), rather, because there is only One.
Freedy, maybe nonduality is something to get you away from the lure of your old faith for good. Because it's not a belief system. Pure noduality is taught in uncompromising Zen-Buddhism or the Hinduistic school of Advaita Vedanta, for example. You are not asked to believe anything about a God, but rather to become the ultimate sceptic and to find out by the use of logic and your own experience that, as the formidable sage Ramesh Balsekar puts it, nothing can ever happen that is not the will of God. But he's talking about an impersonal cosmic force that cannot be known by humans. That's what "thy will be done" is really all about. As Schopenhauer said, you can surely do what you want, but you cannot determine what you want. That's up to God. Do whatever you like, it is automatically divine, the will of the cosmic Force. You as a human being with a personality are an illusion, and Nonduality invites you to find out -- not to take anyone's word for it -- that You are forever -- that I am forever. I'm currently in the process of finding out, so to speak, but mind you it's always "so to speak" in this field. It's absolutely mind blowing to find out that you're not the fallible personality that is responsible for loads and loads of "mistakes" -- not say sins. This entity (christians say soul) you have always thought yourself to be is an illusion. I'm still utterly benumbed by this realization. I (the illusion) kind of can't believe it and still keep forgetting it in the heat of daily life. But it's truly humbling to have been so utterly wrong and ignorant.

You guys were talking about guilt and fear. Well, Ramesh Balsekar ends this Satsang pointing out that you can be sure that you will never EVER have to ask God's forgiveness for ANYTHING. Beware, it's not for the faint of heart or for the proud, because "you" are being taken apart peace by peace (so that You can shine forth):

http://advaita.org/Ramesh%201_12_01%20transcript.htm

Some people say Jesus was an enlightened master quite different from what ordinary christians believe in. From that perspective some of his statements make sense, e.g. like I myself said, it's not for the faint of heart or proud people, just as Jesus eschewed pride but also said that cowards wouldn't enter the kingdom of God.
I guess what you're talking about is along those lines too, Brigid. Be good , be bad, it'll be fine, but keep the illusion in check...

Anonymous said...

When I wrote "peace by peace" I meant "piece by piece". But peace is the outcome. Just to set this straight. God meant me to misspell it, obviously.

Anonymous said...

Hmm...how many people here will admit to being in rebellion against their parents and pissed off that life hasn't gone the way they plan?

Anonymous said...

The comments about everything being the will of the cosmic force, God, and so anything you or I do is a disavowal of secondary causality, which is the viewpoint of Islam, and eatern thought also. The thing that separates those streams of belief from Christianity is the acceptance of secondary causality by the west, especially in Judaism and Christianity. The universe is the creation of a rational being who invites us to cooperate in the creation of the world.

I haven't noticed anyone eschewing a belief system here, just deciding that Christianity is not to their liking. I would posit that that is a result of not understanding authentic Christianity. Try reading the Autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila, or her Interior Castle. St. John of the Cross is also excellent. My point is that you can only come to an understanding of a thing by researching those who have been truly successful at it.

brigid said...

Too bad about the server being down. I understand computer stuff about as well as I speak Swahili.

Hi anonymous....some of us are confused, because there is/was a fundy around here calling himself the same name. Obviously you are not that person.

About free will: I also fail to believe in a free will, and that is the way I like it. I must be who I am--I have no choice. There is a certain atheist-baiting zealot that used to drop by here all the time, a monotonous, repetitious little prick, who kept comparing atheists to hitler and stalin. Anyway, his favorite thing to say was that a materialist or naturalist world view makes one a slave to one's DNA; you "dance to its tune". Only belief in a deity provides the power of choice. I told him that I would rather hear the aria of my DNA that the dirge of his jew-god.

About spirituality: your outlook at least has the advantage of simplicity. Christians take the long way around in the attempt to be reconciled to the deity; they have to have the creation; original sin; the chosen people; the law and the prophets; the immaculate conception; the incarnation; the atonement; the resurrection, and on and on and on.Why should it be so hard to say that the deity has nothing against us; never has; never will?

If you get a chance, tell my where that Schopenhauer quote can be found. Bye

brigid said...

Sorry, I meant "than the dirge of his jew-god"

brigid said...

Well, anonymous, your last post came in and you have me confused. Just what the hell do you believe in with this "authentic" christianity? I know what the bible teaches--the bible teaches that unless we believe in jesus and in his shed blood and repent, then god will fry us in hell forever. THAT is what the bible says. Now, do you espouse some "authentic" christianity that somehow departs from bible teaching?

I can tell you that I believe that the bible was composed by lunatics, and whoever believes in such trash isn't fit to share the same side of the street with me. But now, are you saying that the bible is not this "authentic" christianity? So just what the hell is?

Arthur said...

Hi Brigid, no, I'm not that fundie. My posts were the long one and the following peace/piece spelling correction. I'm going to call myself Arthur to avoid the confusion. I once was a fundie, until I decided to honestly question things and experienced a "paradigm shift", a radical change in my outlook. My "belief system" is indeed very simple now. It revolves around two central aspects. 1.) Consciousness is. 2.) There is no individual entity or "doer". Number one cannot possibly be denied; as for number 2, it can be understood intellectually by seeing that we are indeed ruled by our genes and environment -- only those two and nothing else. Or, what I hope to achieve (which is in a way nonsense because there is no-one to achieve anything) is to experience and KNOW "myself" that there is no doer but only Consciousness, only Experiencing, which I am. We cannot be sure of anything, everything is subject to error, anything can be doubted. With one exception: Experiencing is happening. Thoughts come from nowhere and disappear to nowhere without anyone doing it. Descartes was wrong to say "I think, therefore I am." It would have been correct to say "experiencing is, therefore experiencing is." Here's a tip on how to see on a more experiential level that there is no thinker (and thus also no doer): Adopt a witness attitude and watch your own mind; ask yourself what your very next thought is going to be. Can you ever know your next thought before it is already there?


The Schopenhauer quote you can find here:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/arthurscho155429.html

I don't know where he originally said it, maybe it was in his "Prize Essay on the Freedom of the Will".

Greetings -- Arthur

Elroy (was Anonymous) said...

This vein of thought can actually be summed up in the phrase "Why was I born, what is my purpose, and how do I do that?"

That is what we are all interested in, and all the rest is hubrus. Fortunately, the answer is the same for everyone. Shocking, isn't it?

You don't really give a crap about all the Consciousness and doers and be-ers (maybe beers:)). You want an end to the confusion, pure and simple. Christianity clears the murky waters, but only what I have termed "authentic Christianity."

Elroy said...

AS AN ASIDE:

The Bible is not Christianity. Sola Scriptura is an invention of the Renaissance era. To get a better picture of Christianity, look to great writers like St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica. If you get nothing else out of it, you'll understand how to frame an argument rationally.

brigid said...

arthur, hi. Your ideas on consciousness remind me of Sartre. There is no individual; there is only the outside world reproducing itself inside our heads. We can establish our individuality only by negating the outside world and by affirming our freedom within it. I must say I have always been a little weak on that point. How do we negate the outside world? By pissing on the sidewalk? Telling the IRS to fuck itself? I dunno.

elroy: I have read the summa and it is childishly flawed. The first goddamn page; 1st part; question 1; article 1:
acquinas says that because human reason is faulty, divine revelation is necessary. That is an is-ought fallacy--simply because human reason is imperfect does not mean that we "need" revelation, much less that we actually have it. My reasoning abilities are never perfect, but that never means that I run to god for answers, and it does not mean that the answers are there.

And about the bible not being christianity: in this article, acquinas quotes the bible 4 times.All through the summa, he quotes the bible as though it were that revealed truth. The whole summa is based on the notion of revealed truth. So much for rational argument.

revelation is necessary for salvation, says acquinas; reason alone is insufficient. And where does the notion of salvation come from? The divinely-revealed bible? This is a comical circularity.

Anyway, I gotta be going.

Elroy said...

My intention is to say that the Bible is not all of Christianity, nor can one rely on Sola Scriptura to get at the meat of it. Original and authentic Christianity has an oral tradition, as Judaism did. And if you are referring to the Bible as the Word of God, as some are wont to do, it is correct that the Bible is the written word of God. To be completely correct, one identifies Jesus Christ as the Word of God, the Logos.

Aquinas probably seems childish to you because you don't accept his premise that because reason has limits, and so is faulty, we need an infusion of knowledge from that which resides in the bounds beyond reason. That premise seems obvious: if reason has limits, then I want a viewpoint that is broader. Only an intelligent being in that realm can do that. Your rejection of that premise holds water only if there is nothing intelligent beyond human sentient life. You have no way of being certain of your conclusion, as you cannot prove something does not exist.

My previous statement, that none of this wrangling about the truth or falsity of Christianity, while waxing over eastern religions or swamis, is the point. Everyone wants clarity, to clear the murky waters. Unless you purport to have a complete description of reality, I posit atheism doesn't fill the bill.

The truth or falseness of Christianity, since NONE of us have a complete picture of reality, is in looking to the most successful practicioners of it. If we were talking about Italians around here, you guys would be pointing at Sal Traficante as typical.

And I spent years as an atheist. Been there, done that. I understand the anger. It's not necessary.

brigid said...

First of all,elroy, I am not angry. This is just the way I talk.

To attempt to take your points in order: yes, acquinas is childish. Because reason has limits, you--and he--think that you "need" an infusion of knowledge from beyond reason. There is nothing beyond reason. Reason is the best we have, and I cannot help it if you are insecure with that.Why is your reason not good enough for you?

You say you "want" a broader viewpoint. I cannot help that, either. My simple human viewpoint works for me just fine, and if you are dissatisfied with yours, I am sorry. Honey, what you need and what you want has nothing to do with what you can get. If you have needs and wants, you are on your own. It takes work, and education, and self-discipline to get what we need and want. There is no god to grant you your wishes.

And no, there is nothing beyond human sentience. You are indulging in wish-fullfillment. You are insecure, looking to your god to help you think. And about supplying proof: maybe you believe in the standard--issue christian deity, ie,all-knowing; all-powerful, eternal. What is there that I am called upon to disprove? You have this wild fantasy about an everlasting, perfect being, and I need to disprove it? And about the "certainty of my conclusion": why do I need to feel uncertainty?

You say everyone wants clarity. There is nothing about which I am unclear. What is the problem?

About my incomplete picture of reality: it is as complete as I need to be. There are many things I do not know, but I do not need to appeal to supernatural mysteries. I keep my feet on the ground and I like them there.

And finally, about atheism not filling the bill. What bill? What bill needs filling? Maybe it doesn't fill your bill, so stay in church where you feel safe.

One last thing: about "successful practitioners". You are deciding that for yourself. What does "success" mean in religion? I think theresa and john of the cross were a couple of far-out nuts. They, like all the other mystics, visionaries, and theologians, have sat around for 2000 years and dreamed up shit. I am a successful practitioner of atheism. I guess you weren't

muttmutt1978 said...

ive heard the term true christianity before. its like saying you dont like mushrooms? here try these mushrooms. hell, a mushroom is a mushroom no matter if its cooked fried or frickaseed. same goes for christianity. and i dont like either!
also, there are many sects and branches of christianity, and ive heard them all tout the others as not a true christian. damn it if it calls itself a christian and acts like a jerk then its a christian alright! besides where do you get off saying they arent true christians? to them they are sincere and you are the liar. throw them all christians in one basket and call it a day!

muttmutt1978 said...

and i mean to say that to me all christians are liars. guilty until proven innocent.

.:webmaster:. said...

"And I spent years as an atheist. Been there, done that. I understand the anger. It's not necessary."

Translation: I am me. Why aren't you just like me? You should be.

Arthur said...

Elroy and Brigid, you both misunderstand me, but that's fine.

Anyway, I'll just comment your comments: Elroy, you don't have the ultimate medicine, and you don't know what I give a shit about and what not, and you have completely failed at summing it up. Believe me.

Brigid, I guess that to some extent it resembles Sartre's existentialism, which I don't know too much about, but he's really not my inspiration. BTW, he said we can't escape free will -- nonsense! "Negate the outside world" -- I don't know. I'd suggest negating any differenciation between inside/outside world. Maybe that's what Sartre meant. But if you want names: Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Spinoza espoused somewhat similar "philosophies", but if you really want to get into it try Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj or Ramesh Balsekar among others.

muttmutt: Well said.

freedy said...

Hey guys,...appreciate your replies and support,..you see christians with there glassy-eyed fake smiles and wonder if their delusional happiness works for them ,....but never to work for us again,...our eyes are too open!
There's "no turning back" as the old gospel song says.

Elroy said...

Dr. Ricardo Castanon is a real person with a real address. He can be reached through the International Group for Peace in Madrid. I'm sure he is quite open to speaking to skeptics. Ask him to present his evidence in a scientific manner. He has credentials that can be verified.

Now, if the evidence conflicts with your assessment of theism. and you cannot find holes in Castanon's laboratory analyses, you'll have a much clearer choice in front of you.

south2003 said...

Elroy,

What the heck was that???

Dave8 said...

Elroy: "That is what we are all interested in, and all the rest is hubrus. Fortunately, the answer is the same for everyone. Shocking, isn't it?"

Yes, to include you, shocking, isn't it, you seem to somehow forget yourself in your logic argument, that's both hubrus and illogical.

Elroy: "You don't really give a crap about all the Consciousness and doers and be-ers (maybe beers:)). You want an end to the confusion, pure and simple."

Confusion? Your god was founded on confusion. Read your bible, its full of mythology, unicorns, dragons, Satyrs, arrow snakes, flying chariots, god jumping around with fire blasting out of his skull, you've got to be kidding. You have read the bible, right?

Elroy: "Christianity clears the murky waters, but only what I have termed "authentic Christianity."

The early Greek philosophers, cleared the murky waters, and started branches of science to further clear up "natural phenomenon", that was used to declare "god" was acting out in our world.

However, the religiously fanatic, and mystical needed to control the masses, so, religion was pushed to keep everyone obeying their words. What used to be attributed to a "god", is now attributed to scientific explanation. Hence, the reason science, died out for the most part, as christianity gained power, remember the dark ages? Do you know how many scientists were murdered because they studied science, instead of saying "god" explains everything? Elroy, you need to go to school and read a few history books. Your religion has perfected the recipe for creating murky water. If there were no Murky water, your entire religion and god would be unnecessary. You need there to be no answer for "sin", you need there to be an answer for "death" and the "afterlife", you need there to be an explanation for why your friends don't like you anymore, or for why bad things happen to good people in the world. But, instead of using logic, you would prefer to say, "god only knows". Sort of like "if Allah wills it", sound familiar.

Elroy: "Aquinas probably seems childish to you because you don't accept his premise that because reason has limits, and so is faulty, we need an infusion of knowledge from that which resides in the bounds beyond reason. That premise seems obvious: if reason has limits, then I want a viewpoint that is broader."

Obviously, a few logic courses shy of your PhD, right... If I give Aquinas his due, and say he is 100% correct in his assertion, that all humanity has limited and faulty logic and reason then, Mr. Aquinas' own "personal" logical and reasoned statements, are limited and faulty based on his premise. So, which do you prefer, me to suggest that Aquinas is a bumbling fool (not bad for his day I suppose) who discredits himself with his own premise statement that "all" (to include his) reason (in which he uses), is faulty? Or, should I be more the christian, and call him a fool without logical support...

If you read some, at least a little, instead of cutting and pasting biased, wannabe reality scenarios, you will realize that many "theologians" in forming their ontological arguments, somehow... leave themselves "out" of their premise statements or arguments... as if... somehow... they were "above" and "resided" outside of "reality" and the general population they were assigning their philosophy to... Sound nice, sitting on the outside of reality, and making comments about how flawed everything is, they observe... kinda' makes them appear like "gods", huh... Perhaps, they were trying to predict what a "god" would say, if he/she/it were wanting to speak, and wrote down some material to speak from, in the pulpit, as "if" they were "god" himself/herself/itself...

Elroy: "Only an intelligent being in that realm can do that. Your rejection of that premise holds water only if there is nothing intelligent beyond human sentient life. You have no way of being certain of your conclusion, as you cannot prove something does not exist."

As you can't prove something exists... Therefore, we can conclude, that you are using your imagination to create an untestable hypothetical.

By the way, your stigmata BS is hilarious... "Stigmata are primarily associated with the Roman Catholic faith. Many reported stigmatics are members of Catholic religious orders. About 90% of reported stigmatics are female."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata

Uh, isn't it funny that only the "Catholics" seem to be really in tune with Jesus' suffering, and mainly women... I suppose that means everyone else is just plain jane believers, somewhere in the middle of the road, like you "Elroy"... If Aquinas is correct and "everyone" has faulty logic and reasing abilities, then, perhaps, stigmata is a faulty perception of something religious, perhaps they're just self-induced sores, I mean, anythings' possible if we can't ever really know "truth" from our obvious limited abilities... Yeah, the murky waters are clearing right on up...

Elroy: "Jesuit Priests Survive Atomic Bomb Speaking on American TV, the German Jesuit Father Hubert Shiffner gave the startling answer:"


Sigmund Freud [1856-1939] Austrian physician and pioneer psychoanalyst
"The idea of God was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind." A History of God

Stephen Hawking Theoretical Physicist
At a physicist's conference Hawking was attending after his book A Brief History of Time was published, a reporter approached him to ask if he did in fact believe in God, given the "mind of God" reference near the end of the book. Hawking responded quickly (suggesting his answer was pre-prepared) "I do not believe in a personal God."

Friedrich Nietzsche German philosopher
"In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point."

George Bernard Shaw [1856-1950] Irish-born English playwright
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

Isaac Asimov [1920-1992] Russian-born American author
"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."

Well, there you have it Elroy. Do you need some more observations by forward thinking people of history. I mean, if you really took the quotes of the previously inspired Atheists, etc., you would just find supporting information on this site for such views. I suppose those who were quoted had to listen to apologetics their life also, and were not amused to say the least... Well, at a minimum, they may not have had to see cut and paste tactics to make such weak arguments...

.:webmaster:. said...

Again,

Elroy, copying and pasting articles from the Internet is not appreciated. If you continue copying and pasting articles, all your posts will be deleted.

You may discuss the things in any articles, use a few quotes, and/or reference a link to any articles, but please do not post the entire articles.

Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

On Elroy's hero, Dr. Ricardo Castanon:

A scientific experiment!

Here's a picture of the good Doctor: click here.

Those who would like to buy a movie featuring this "convicted atheist," as the video description states, should click here.

There Elroy, I helped you out. The real message is out there now.

Phew...

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, to purchase the video, when you click on the link, be sure to scroll all the way down to #1190.

.:webmaster:. said...

A little off topic but, let's not forget the Allah Fish.

Elroy said...

>>Isaac Asimov [1920-1992] Russian-born American author "I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually <<

Asimov was a friend of my family, specifically my father-in-law, and they never felt a need to joust over the issue of God. He was a wonderful man.

Dave8 said...

Elroy: "Asimov was a friend of my family, specifically my father-in-law, and they never felt a need to joust over the issue of God. He was a wonderful man."

Its hard to verbally joust over an invisible entity, beyond description and linguistic expression. Two intellectuals would understand the futility of such a discussion. If only one was an intellectual, well... then it may just be amusing to see how long it takes the other person to realize the futility.

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