Recovering from Christianity

sent in by Jess

My earliest memories are of being in church. I remember being about three years old and looking through the hymn books at the pictures of birds. I thought that the priest was actually God and thought that "sins" were tangible...things. My other memories are of falling asleep on the pew being as old as six. After that, my dad always made me kneel with my back completely straight when the time came, etc.

Being Catholic I had my first communion when I was seven. I hardly understood what was going on; it felt awkward being in a poofy white dress and having all these relatives so excited about me taking a wafer for the first time. That same year I remember wondering if heaven really existed and if we actually lived many lives on earth.

Then I became fascinated with astronomy. I read everything I could about the planets, the galaxies, and the Big Bang Theory. Of course, the latter resulted in conflict. I was in the third grade when I was spouting off to my parents what I had just learned, and a few days later my mom had my much-older cousin sit down and explain to me that God had really created us and that the Big Bang Theory never happened.

I obviously never got very into Christianity. It was the worst when I entered high school. But I felt pretty confident about it until my history class freshman year. I'd been part of Christian Youth Theatre (CYT) for a few years. That meant a lot of fundamentalist Christians, and a lot of melodramatic worshipping. That's what made me think I was happy being Christian. The passion, the family feeling...it really was beautiful. But what wasn't beautiful, and had been pushing me away for a long time, was that they believed non-Christians go to hell. Then in history we read about all these philosophers that denied the existance of God, and Christianity's running track of discouragement and war. These were confusing, to say the least. Why would my parents teach me something that wasn't true? So I decided upon atheism. That worked, but only for awhile.

I needed something to get me through the year. I had several friends who were suffering from depression and acting upon it. It affected me that way as well. I started going out with this Ultra Christian CYT friend of mine, and he knew I wasn't Christian, but I had decided for his sake (and for my own, at the time) that I'd give Christianity another shot. Not a month later, my grandmother died. The next time I saw my boyfriend was a week later, and he broke up with me for not being Christian. His excuses were that God had been "telling" him from the start that our relationship had been wrong, and that the Bible says Christians shouldn't be "unequally yoked to those of different faiths." Christianity had let me down again. To top it off, this theatre group had a lock-in for teenagers, and at the end of the night we were separated boys and girls. They took that opportunity to lecture us on dressing modestly because we cause boys to sin by making them want us. It says in the Bible that if a man looks at a woman and wants her, he has committed adultery with her in his heart. Similarly, if you cause a person to sin, you might as well tie a millstone around your neck and throw yourself in a river. So then they give us bracelets/necklaces with little clay millstones!

That was it, and I'm pagan now. I've come to embrace what I naturally am. Ever since my decision I've gotten numerous compliments from almost complete strangers about how pretty I am, as well as random good luck. I don't have to pretend anymore. But there's a sad part to this. I don't trust Christians anymore. You know they're thinking you're going to hell. Though I don't believe in hell, the magnitude of what that belief entails is bad enough. I wonder if I'll ever recover, or if it's even wise to.

Lake Villa
IL
US
Joined because I was raised so
Left at 14 or 15
Was: Catholic
Now: If I have to choose, pagan
Converted because: I was forced into it by family
De-converted because: I didn't realize until I was a teenager that it was okay to stray away from what your parents taught you. I ended up submitting to my natural beliefs. (A rather long story, described in body.)

19 comments:

brigid said...

Hi Jess, I am a former catholic and an atheist. My name is Brigid Brophy, Irish on both sides, and just silly as hell.

I quit the church when I was 16--I learned about shit like the inquistion, and no amount of so-called apologetics could get me to close my eyes and stay on my knees. Hope you come around often. I have a niece named Jesse; her mother is my big sister and they are the only ones in my extended family who speak to me.

Your story seems to have gotten double-recorded somehow. If I know the WM he'll have it fixed soon.

Take care, sweetie. Do tell me more about paganism. I have some Wiccan friends but I don't know much about pagans.

Arthur said...

Paganism -- I just looked it up in the dictionary. English is not my mother tongue, you know, but maybe this is new to you as well. Paganism is simply ANY of various religions other than christianity.

Jess, if you embrace what you naturally are, you couldn't do any better if you ask me. No resistance to what you are, no resistance to what is -- then you have "arrived". That's the REAL kingdom of god, that's what Jesus was ACTUALLY talking about, or whoever invented Jesus if he didn't exist. First seek the kingdom of god, and everything else will follow. The kingdom of god is reality as it already is. That's my understanding of spirituality at any rate. If you can't trust christians, fine. You can't really "trust" anyone, because you can't predict the future, if you know what I mean. Stay with embracing reality including yourself and christians who believe you're going to hell. It already is as it is. :-)

Ian said...

Hi Jess, thank you for your story. I applaud you for having the courage to find your own path to God in the way that works best for you. It takes courage to say "This isn't for me." and leave it, especially when others might try to threaten you will hell.

Find your own path, and don't let anyone else choose it for you.

tigg13 said...

Hey Jess!

Welcome, welcome to a fellow thespian, star gazer and circle dancer. May Herne and Artimus bless you (and may Aris and Loki leave you alone).

Sorry about your grandmother and your CYT friend. But, remember, a true friend wouldn't dump you and then turn around and try to make you feel like it was your fault for not having the "right" religion, so your probably better off without him.

To Arthur:

Technically, Paganism refers to the indigenous religions practiced in Europe before the advent of christianity. It shares many traits with other indigenous religions around the world such as polytheism, ancestor worship and a belief in magic. There are other religions such as Judaism and Islam that are neither paganistic or christian. There is also some evidence that paganism directly influenced both the old and new testiment writings such as the plural terms "we" and "Elohim" in Genesis and the simularities between Jesus and pagan god-men like Herculies, Dionysus and Mithra.

Arthur said...

Thanks, Tigg.

Lsettr said...

If you want a bit more explanation on Paganism, look up the book with the very title by Higginbotham. It is a really great tutorial. I use it for teaching.

Rach

Anonymous said...

Hi everyone, my name is Nick. I am a Christian and I wanted to ask everyone a question. I read some of the forum and I wanted to know if you can choose your own path or what feels right to you how do you know that you are on the right path? Because if there is a God out there then I think we better serve that God. Also I have never really talked with any Athiest before and I was wondering if one could answer this question. How do you know for a fact that there is no God? Both the belief in God or the belief in no God requires faith. I am not wanting to argue with anyone about the belief in God or anything but I really do want to learn what everyone believes in. Have a great day

I

.:webmaster:. said...

Nick,

A belief in "no-God?"

What kind of belief is a belief in no-God? Is it like a belief in no-UFO? Or would it resemble a belief in no-Santa?

Atheism is not a belief in "no-God," it is a lack of belief in any god whatsoever.

You believe in your God, right? Why? Why do you believe in your God? What evidence do you have that there is such a thing at all. And what is your evidence that your God is real?

I am an atheist. I lack a belief in any God, because no one has ever provided evidence for the existence of their favorite deity.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that you lack a belief in Zeus, Allah, Dagon, Benton, and a myriad of other magical supernatural personalities that have been, or are still being, worshiped around the globe. Obviously there are a vast number of gods that have been believed in by people throughout our short written history. The way I see it, you have rejected belief in literally thousands of gods, and yet have chosen to believe in one of them, because... Well, who knows.

When you figure out why you've rejected belief in all the thousands of gods on Earth, then you will understand why I have rejected belief in your god.

Really the only difference between an atheist and a Christian is that the atheist disbelieves in one less god than the Christian.

J. C. Samuelson said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
J. C. Samuelson said...

"I wanted to know if you can choose your own path or what feels right to you how do you know that you are on the right path?"

Everyone chooses their own path, Nick. Even the Christian chooses the path he/she is on, though some who were raised as Christians may feel as if the choice was never available until later on. At some point, however, the Christian chooses either to ignore different ideas & teachings or embrace their possibilities. The choice isn't necessarily a conscious one, but it is made.

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." ~ Rush, "Free Will"

For me, it's not so much a matter of what "feels right." There were many things that "felt" right while I was a Christian. However, there were more things that "felt" wrong, looked wrong, and simply could not stand up to scrutiny. Read the materials available on this website to see what I mean.

As for whether or not I'm on the "right" path, I can only say that I think, feel, and act much the same as I always have, without the extra baggage of guilt and fear that prompted my search for God in the first place. My morals are still intact, along with my intellect, and I'm no longer a well-dressed hypocrite on Sunday.

"Because if there is a God out there then I think we better serve that God."

Why? Is it the fear of Hell that drives you to worship? Is it the hope for a reward in the next life? Assuming the existence of God, what is it that makes you think God is worthy of worship? Because a book told you so?

"How do you know for a fact that there is no God?"

The divine is inherently beyond our ability to prove or disprove, and such arguments are by their very nature circular. Discussing questions like this make for good late night drunken philosophy sessions, but not much else.

"Both the belief in God or the belief in no God requires faith."

No they don't. Lack of belief in one thing doesn't mean belief in its opposite. It is simply absence of belief. As the WM has pointed out, you lack belief in thousands of other gods.

Hope this helps answer your questions.

Anonymous said...

This is nick again

So the reason I believe in my God is because of the things that have heppened in my life. I used to believe in no God at all and then I started to think that if there is no God then there is no reason to be alive. My testimony is my proof. Evolution teaches that the main reason to live is to have your genetics go on to the next generation. Most people choose not to do this anymore because you end up paying alot of money for child support, given that you have a child with one woman and then go to the next and continue this process

I would actually want to know what proof you have that there is no God.
Ask yourself these questions.

1. Lets say you have half the knowledge of everything in the universe. Is there a possibility that God could live in the other half? If you say no then how do you know.

For someone to know that there is no God for a fact, they would have to proove that they could be everywhere at once.

You could ask me the same question, but my answer would be my experience. I used to be someone that denied the possibility of God but later discovered it was only my hate of God that fueled that. I hated God because of the crap that I had to go through, the abuse the neglect the life that some ALL POWERFUL GOD put me in and I couldn't understand how If God is a God of love, then why was my life so screwed up.

But I blamed God for something that he was not responsible for. We choose to make our own decisions and they chose to do evil.

Is God evil for giving us a free will or would he be evil for not?

"Both the belief in God or the belief in no God requires faith."

Now the definition of Faith in biblical terms is Found in Hebrews 11:1 "Now Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"

Both believe in something that they can't prove. Both are hoped for. By faith I believe that God created the universe. I don't know if you believe in evolution or not but by faith an evolutionist believes that life came from nothing.

I believe in the God of the bible becaue no other god did it for me. This God was the only one that ever gave me a reply.

My job is to help people with their beliefs. If you choose not to believe in God, that is up to you, but you should have a good answer when questioned. I am trying to give the best answer for my side of things and if I have forgotten anything please ask it again.

boomSLANG said...

Yoo hoo?...Steamboat_Willy? Would you like to be a "voice of reason" and tackle this one? Our Christian guest, Nick, has been told by two people now, one being Webmaster himself, that there's no such "belief" as a "belief in no God". Just like if one doesn't believe in leprechans, you don't HAVE a belief in "NO leprechans". If the question should arise---you wouldn't say, "Oh, no...I BELIEVE in NO leprechans, thank you very much".....no.... you'd say, "No thanks, I DON'T believe in leprechans". You simply lack belief in such a thing. You don't need "Faith" in a negative.

Anyway, it's really simple, but I can see how it would be a challenge for people who think that Jesus "MUST" exist, but yet, they take it on "Faith", because they don't have evidence(in a positive assertion) or else they wouldn't need "Faith"..... so as in Nick's case they erroneously think, "hey, I know, I'll MAKE it true by default."

Also, Nick obviously can't grasp the part about proving a negative. Where is that "Steamboat_Willy", when we need him? LMAO!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

This is Nick again.
Why is it that when I ask a question that makes on think I get called names. MR. Boomslang I think that it would be easier to say that you can't answer with out admitting that there is a God. Lets keep this to a simple debate without name calling because in most cases with debates when someone starts doing that stuff that means that they have lost.

I came to this forum to learn about Atheism and why some choose to not believe in a god.

"Our Christian guest, Nick, has been told by two people now, one being Webmaster himself, that there's no such "belief" as a "belief in no God"

Think about what you are saying. If you say that there is no God, that is your belief. Whether you believe or disbelieve that is still considered a belief.

For it to not be a belief, one must prove it to be false.

The dictionary says in definition 3

"Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons."

You also held the Webmaster in high regards. It is good to look up to someone but does what he said guarantee that he is right.

Also I want to apologize for all the hypocrital christians out there. Me being one. I am not perfect. I mess up every single day. To me it seems that alot of people believe that when you become a Christian, you become perfect. That is so majorly not true. The bible teaches that we are saved by grace alone and not by saying your hail marys or confessing your sins to a priest who probably is the one that needs to confess his sins. Or that you can earn your way into heaven. Churches that teach this stuff are messed up.

I need to end this cuz this is already too long but if anyone feels the need for me to stop submitting messages I will respect that. But I would love to continue talking to anyone that is willing and that can keep a level head

J. C. Samuelson said...

"I started to think that if there is no God then there is no reason to be alive."

But why? Do you have a family? Do you have things you love to do? Do you have goals? What are your interests? If you have any of the above you have the raw materials for a fulfilling life, even without God.

"Evolution teaches that the main reason to live is to have your genetics go on to the next generation."

Where do you get that idea? Evolution is a scientific theory, not a philosophy. It has nothing to say about meaning or lack thereof. Find for me where the Theory of Evolution advocates a particular way of life and then we'll talk.

Also, look up "theistic evolution" for how evolution can mesh with faith.

"Most people choose not to do this anymore because you end up paying alot of money for child support, given that you have a child with one woman and then go to the next and continue this process."

Nick, your logic is so twisted here as to be nearly unintelligible. If I understand this correctly, you're saying that evolution says you are to impregnate as many women as possible for the purposes of propagation, which will result in a lot of men paying out child support, right? Who the hell has been teaching you this crap?

Once again, the Theory of Evolution is not a philosophy or way of life. It is a scientific theory about the origin and development of species. That is, it's about biology and processes within biology. That's it. Really!

"I would actually want to know what proof you have that there is no God."

Nick, the burden of proof is on the one making the fantastic claim, not the other way 'round. If someone claims to have seen a ghost, it is their job to provide evidence for their claim.

Christians claim there is a God for which there is no empirical evidence. Since God is a very subjective concept with which not everyone has had experience, it is incumbent on the one making the claim to provide persuasive positive evidence for His existence. Period.

"1. Lets say you have half the knowledge of everything in the universe. Is there a possibility that God could live in the other half? If you say no then how do you know."

This question just doesn't make any sense at all.

"For someone to know that there is no God for a fact, they would have to proove that they could be everywhere at once."

For someone to know that there is a God for a fact, they would have to prove that they could be everywhere at once.

See how this gets to be circular? It's an exercise in futility.

"You could ask me the same question, but my answer would be my experience."

Which is subjective and not given to analysis by anyone but you or a psychotherapist. Your experience is not the same as someone else's, even of the same faith.

In other words, this is proof for no one but you. Is this supposed to be persuasive?

"Is God evil for giving us a free will or would he be evil for not?"

The doctrine of free will has little to no support in your Bible. Just thought you should know.

"Both believe in something that they can't prove. Both are hoped for."

Not quite. I don't hope God doesn't exist. I simply don't know or care whether He does or not.

"...by faith an evolutionist believes that life came from nothing."

It's not by faith. There is a huge amount of evidence for the Theory of Evolution. Furthermore, evolution deals with the origin of species, not the origin of life. Abiogenesis deals with the origins of life. Yes, it's related but not the same thing.

"I believe in the God of the bible becaue no other god did it for me. This God was the only one that ever gave me a reply."

Well, perhaps you didn't have enough faith in those other gods. Think about it.

"My job is to help people with their beliefs."

It is? Who gave you that job? Even more important, who here has asked for your help?

"If you choose not to believe in God, that is up to you, but you should have a good answer when questioned."

My answer is that I don't know or care if God exists. Such an entity is completely unnecessary to me, and I don't need any help with that, thanks.

boomSLANG said...

Nick asked: "Why is it that when I ask a question that makes on think I get called names. MR. Boomslang I think that it would be easier to say that you can't answer with out admitting that there is a God."

My apologies, Nick. "Steamboat_Willy" is another person on this site, who, instead of challenging weak fundametalist arguments, seems to be infatuated with me, because of the way I always ask for "OBJECTIVE" evidence for fantastic claims such as yours...i.e. the belief in a "God". So no, I wasn't name calling. Sorry 'bout the confusion.

Nick said: "Think about what you are saying. If you say that there is no God, that is your belief. Whether you believe or disbelieve that is still considered a belief."

Nick, trust me, I HAVE thought about what I'm saying. Now---can YOU think about what we're saying? You said you want to understand Atheism, right? Observe:

Believe. 1 a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real.
2 : to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something. (reference: Merriam Webster)

Notice it says "TO HAVE" such-n-such. Well, the Atheist does NOT have. We lack a belief in Gods. Again, it's a simple concept, and weasle-wording isn't helping your argument.

Nick said: "For it to not be a belief, one must prove it to be false."

Really? No one can prove that little green men don't live inside Pluto---so does that mean that everybody has a belief that they do?....we should all gather on Mondays and joins hands at the local Distict Convention of Plutonian's Witnesses? Think.

Nick: "The bible teaches that we are saved by grace alone and not by saying your hail marys or confessing your sins to a priest who probably is the one that needs to confess his sins. Or that you can earn your way into heaven. Churches that teach this stuff are messed up."

The Five Point Calvinists would disagree with you, Nick. You can can sit there and say that they're "messed up", but they'll say the same about you. This is proof positive that the Holy Bible is NOT an objective universal "Truth".


Best regards.

Anonymous said...

Jeff the Ubergeek said...
But why? Do you have a family? Do you have things you love to do? Do you have goals? What are your interests? If you have any of the above you have the raw materials for a fulfilling life, even without God.

IF after you die nothing, then it is all meaningless

"Where do you get that idea?"
I get that idea from some people I know that believe in evolution. They state the more offspring they have the better for them. "survival of the fittest"

"Also, look up "theistic evolution" for how evolution can mesh with faith."

If God is all powerful then why would God have to be bound by the laws of sacience? Is an all powerful God a slave to science or is science a slave to God?


"Nick, your logic is so twisted here as to be nearly unintelligible. If I understand this correctly, you're saying that evolution says you are to impregnate as many women as possible for the purposes of propagation, which will result in a lot of men paying out child support, right? Who the hell has been teaching you this crap?"

Yet again survival of the fittest
The child support thing was me being sarcastic and hoping someone would get a kick out of it. Yet again this is what evolutionist teach.


"Nick, the burden of proof is on the one making the fantastic claim, not the other way 'round. If someone claims to have seen a ghost, it is their job to provide evidence for their claim."

Look at all that is around you the wonderful things that we have and all these cool things we can see. trees, animals, the sky, rivers, oceans, etc. If one chooses to see this as a random system of events through billions of years and offer evidence that continually gets disproved the only alternative is a creator.

"1. Lets say you have half the knowledge of everything in the universe. Is there a possibility that God could live in the other half? If you say no then how do you know."

"This question just doesn't make any sense at all."

Then think about it


See how this gets to be circular? It's an exercise in futility.

Not really It is a logical question and if you deny to see that then ok.


"Which is subjective and not given to analysis by anyone but you or a psychotherapist. Your experience is not the same as someone else's, even of the same faith."

You are right about my experience not being the same as someone elses. If someone came up to you and proved that the world is sperical and that proof was enough then in my situation when something that I have no control over happens and this event proves to me there is a God then I will believe in God.

"In other words, this is proof for no one but you. Is this supposed to be persuasive?"

The same exact thing can be said for what you believe in.


"The doctrine of free will has little to no support in your Bible. Just thought you should know."

Maby you should read the bible if you believe this.


"ot quite. I don't hope God doesn't exist. I simply don't know or care whether He does or not."

Maby then you should get off the couch and search out if God exist.
Thats what one of the biggest icons in evolution did I think his name wa flynn or something.

"its not by faith. There is a huge amount of evidence for the Theory of Evolution. Furthermore, evolution deals with the origin of species, not the origin of life. Abiogenesis deals with the origins of life. Yes, it's related but not the same thing."

Evidence what evidence the monkey guys, ALL DISPROVEN. Fossil records, COMPLETELY INCONSISTANT.
The little bird dude Archy as I call it, DISPROVEN discovered to be only a bird and then also believed to be a fraud. Ernst Henckle and the stuff he did. He was proven and convicted to be a fraud. What evidence do you hae that hasnt been disproven for evolution. Also if all the ape men have been disproven, where are our ancestors?



"Well, perhaps you didn't have enough faith in those other gods. Think about it."

Perhaps but do you have enough faith that the moon is made of cheese. Just because there are alot of gods does not indicate they are all real.


"It is? Who gave you that job? Even more important, who here has asked for your help?"

Not a soul but Jesus said to go and preach the gospel to all,

"If you choose not to believe in God, that is up to you, but you should have a good answer when questioned."

My answer is that I don't know or care if God exists. Such an entity is completely unnecessary to me, and I don't need any help with that, thanks."

If God is real and created us to worship him, but gave us free will to choose to worship him so we are not mindless robots doesnt that say if you do not do what you are intended then he has the right to judge. If you put bread in a toaster and it doesn't toast your bread then you have the right to get rid of it.

But the fact is, if God did not love us we would not be here. In that case I believe that God wants to have a relationship with you and all who deny God.

.:webmaster:. said...

For Nick: Click here

boomSLANG said...

Anon(Nick?) said: "IF after you die nothing, then it is all meaningless."

Contrarily---If you NEVER die, it's all meaningless. An eternal existance would serve zero purpose, 1) because an infinite amount of events will have already happened, and 2) because there's nothing to compare those events to--you've done EVERY possible thing; thought EVERY possible thought; sang EVERY possible gospel hymm. It would ultimately become torture...i.e..."Hell"(pun intended)

Anon : "The child support thing was me being sarcastic and hoping someone would get a kick out of it. Yet again this is what evolutionist teach."

No, it most absolutely is not what evolution teaches. That is a total caricature view of evolution. Show me a biology book that talks about "child support", and I'll show you a home economics book that talks about talking donkeys.

Uber' said: "The doctrine of free will has little to no support in your Bible."

Anon said, in response: "Maby you should read the bible if you believe this."

Read the bible? The bible has at LEAST a few THOUSAND ways to interpret it, hence, the few THOUSAND denominations, ALL of which claim to "know" their interpretation is THEE correct one. On "freewill"..maybe consult a Five Point Calvinist?

Anon said: "But the fact is, if God did not love us we would not be here. In that case I believe that God wants to have a relationship with you and all who deny God."

What "fact"???????? If you're going to use presuppositional arguments, you should at least start with them, not end with them.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"IF after you die nothing, then it is all meaningless"

So, essentially you're saying that your relationships, the effect your presence has on other lives, is meaningless. The people who will carry your memory, the good things you've done that inspire someone else to do the same are meaningless.

I can't imagine anyone saying something more patently selfish.

The effect my life has on my daughter's life will outlive me, as what she's learned from me is passed to her children, and so on. The values she's learning and the love we share is not meaningless to me. When I die, I can be happy knowing that at least I've influenced my daughter's life in a positive way. And that's just one person, Nick.

Everyone can have that legacy, and that legacy is not meaningless.

"If God is all powerful then why would God have to be bound by the laws of sacience? Is an all powerful God a slave to science or is science a slave to God?"

Let's start with an analogy involving two different car designs. NOTE: I do not believe in ID or creation, but I do understand this position and must assume design for the purpose of this argument. So to my fellow ex-Christians (especially boomSLANG, hehe) don't jump my ass for this.

A car as we know it was designed and built by humans (with robotic help nowadays). In other words, we are its maker. It has a purpose and function (to convey passengers), and the design allows it to perform in that capacity. However, it cannot do so on its own. It requires a driver to tell it what to do and where to go. It requires fuel and regular maintenance in order to continue to function. In other words, it requires the constant intervention of the maker (humans) to continue to perform according to its purpose.

Now, imagine (if you can) a car of another design. A car that has been designed to function autonomously, but still has the purpose of conveying passengers from one point to another. This car plots its own course, refuels itself, and repairs itself. That is, except for fulfilling its purpose of conveying passengers, it requires no interaction with its maker.

Which is the more superior design?

Theistic evolution essentially says that God put the mechanisms of abiogenesis and evolution in motion. That is, these mechanisms are of His making. The universe, according to them, was made to function according to His design, with all physical and biological laws of His creation, but it does not require his constant interaction to continue.

Now, personally I don't see the need for any god in this equation, but there it is. Theistic evolutionists do not feel they have to abandon their faith in order for it to agree with science which, in spite of its imperfections, is the best thing going for empirical evidence and method for studying the marvel that is the universe.

So, by saying that science is irrelevant or conversely thinking that science binds an omnipotent being, you are placing limits on that supposed omnipotent god you love so much.

"Yet again this is what evolutionist teach."

In nearly 37 years of life I have yet to hear a single evolutionist take the position you described, and have never heard any scientific figure espouse that position either.

Once again, the Theory of Evolution is about biology, natural processes - it does not teach philosophy. Got it?

See Understanding Evolution at Berkeley for a number of resources to help you understand it. I was hoping to avoid doing your research for you, but decided to give you a starting point.

"Look at all that is around you the wonderful things that we have and all these cool things we can see. trees, animals, the sky, rivers, oceans, etc."

Yes, the universe is marvelous. However, none of it - and I mean none of it - is empirical evidence for a creator. All can be explained as having arisen via natural processes that do not require the intervention of an intelligence you call God.

Since you didn't seem to understand the ghost analogy, let's try it a different way. If a person says, "I did not see a ghost," is the burden of proof on that person to prove it? I hope you see how ridiculous such a notion is.

boomSLANG also gave a good illustration using Plutonians. Good one, boom!

"If one chooses to see this as a random system of events through billions of years and offer evidence that continually gets disproved..."

Continually gets disproved? Please provide examples and your source material, please. We here at exchristian.net aren't exactly living in caves. We're a pretty well-informed bunch.

And notice how evolution is happening in real-time, right now. This is not a theory in crisis as you probably have been led to believe.

"Then think about it"

Ok, I'll spell out for you why your question made no sense.

You asked us to imagine having half of the available knowledge in the universe, and whether it would be possible for God to be a part of the remaining knowledge.

The question makes no sense because it does not matter one bit about the quantity of knowledge or information involved as long as there is some unexplored area in which God may live. Happy?

"Not really It is a logical question and if you deny to see that then ok."

It is not logical at all because the same question can be rephrased and thrown back ad infinitum, ad nauseum. If you can't see that, I have little hope for you, grasshopper.

"If someone came up to you and proved that the world is sperical and that proof was enough then in my situation when something that I have no control over happens and this event proves to me there is a God then I will believe in God."

The two types of proof you describe here are not the same. To prove the world was spherical, an individual can produce empirical evidence of that fact on demand. What you experienced has no empirical proof whatsoever. All you have is anecdotal evidence, i.e., your testimony.

"The same exact thing can be said for what you believe in."

Correction: the exact same thing can be said for some of what I believe in. The rest I rely on evidence that is testable, verifiable, and falsifiable.

"Maby you should read the bible if you believe this."

I have read the Bible more times than I care to remember, both in full and in part. I think you need to go back to Sunday School. Here's some choice verses for you to chew on:

Acts 13:48
Matt. 22:14
Matt. 11:27
John 15:16
Gal. 1:15,16
Rom. 9:16,18
Rom. 9:11-22
Mark 4:11,12
Rom. 8:29-30
2 Tim. 1:9
Eph. 1:4-5
2 Thess. 2:13

And there are loads of others that also imply God's will as the deciding element in your life, not you. In simpler terms, the Calvinists have it right, if the Bible is to be believed.

"Maby then you should get off the couch and search out if God exist."

No need. I've been there, done that. You do know this is an ex-Christian website, yes?

"Evidence what evidence the monkey guys, ALL DISPROVEN. Fossil records, COMPLETELY INCONSISTANT."

See above.

"Just because there are alot of gods does not indicate they are all real."

What evidence do you offer, other than your testimony, that your God is real?

Incidentally, your God never said other gods weren't real. He merely wants to be first. See Ex. 20:3. Your Bible acknowledges other gods, but says that yours is the strongest. I'm getting tired, so the easy way is to refer you to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

"Not a soul but Jesus said to go and preach the gospel to all"

Ah, so I suspected. Well, you have yet to preach the Gospel here. When were you planning to start? Actually, let's save us all some time - we've already heard it and preached it ourselves, thanks. No need for a recap.

"If you put bread in a toaster and it doesn't toast your bread then you have the right to get rid of it."

Human beings aren't toasters. Objectifying the human race won't exactly endear you to your listeners/readers.

"In that case I believe that God wants to have a relationship with you and all who deny God."

Relationship with God is mentioned precisely once - yes that's right, once - in the NIV Bible (Rom. 2:17) in the context of Jews and the Law, and this is a relationship "to," not "with." It's mentioned exactly zero times in the KJV, the NASB, and the CEV.

Tell me, where do you get the idea that you're called to a relationship with God?

Nick, I suggest that if you really want to learn something, start reading. Read everything you can get your hands on, starting with your Bible in it's entirety. Follow-up with some critical analysis, if you can.

I'm done for the night. Cheers.

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