Questioning Everything
sent in by Harry M
Hi everyone. My name is Harry. I've posted on here a couple of times before. At this stage in my life I am very confused and feel like I'm in a paradox. Currently, I attend a United Church (you know, that church that some evangelists consider a church of the devil because we accept all people). Anyways, I'm involved in some activities there and even chair a committee. But lately I've been questioning my faith altogether. So what I'm doing now, I guess, is just writing out my thoughts so that I can get more clarity to figure out what exactly I believe.
I am 26 years old. I've been a Christian since I was five. Went through some difficult times with addictions at the age of 19 and when I was 20 I attended a local Bible College where I became indoctrinated every day about Salvation and Hell and Evil this and Evil that, etc. I graduated with a diploma but after graduation I began questioning my faith and explored other religions (became a Muslim briefly). Didn't know what to believe anymore and finally came back to the United Church.
In my recovery progam I have often sensed my higher power more than I do at church. I have so many unanswered questions when it comes to religion in general and the Bible in particular. And yet, when I think about it more and more, I do have the answers. I'm just too afraid to acknowledge them. It feels like the truth is staring me in the face but something is holding me back.
I consider myself to be a spiritual person. I believe in a higher power, but I am beginning to wonder if maybe this being is simply the creator and is the source of all of us humans. When we die, we return to that source. Did he/she/it really intend for all this hypocricy in religion and for people to kill each other in God's name?
The doctrine that I have the biggest problem with, is the concept of hell. How God could make various peoples, knowing they would have various beliefs and religions, and then condemning them to hell because they were born into the wrong religion. Also, Pre-Destination. God creates us and then Pre-Destines us to heaven or hell and rather than not creating us at all, he makes us and then says.... sorry you can't enter my kingdom because I already pre-destined you to burn in hell for all eternity. It kind of contradicts the notion of free will.
Anyways, I recently finished reading "The Davinci Code". It was a good book and it got me thinking about the church and hypocricy and stuff like that. A lot of evangilists and right wingers are scared of this book because they know that if people start thinking for themselves, they won't need religion anymore. The church will crumble, but not just church, other religions as well. If there is a God, wouldn't he want us to love and respect one another and to do good works to benefit humanity? Eat, Drink and be Merry, for today we LIVE!!!!
Life is short. I believe there are still things for me to discover that I don't quite understand. Maybe I need a vacation from church to clear my head. I don't know. Any suggestions any of you reading this may have, feel free to e-mail me. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for letting me vent briefly.
Regina
SK
Canada
Joined: 5
Left: 26?
Was: Many, currently United.
Now: Seeker of Truth
Converted because: local group converted me
De-converted because: Questioned everything
email: spare at accesscomm dot ca
Hi everyone. My name is Harry. I've posted on here a couple of times before. At this stage in my life I am very confused and feel like I'm in a paradox. Currently, I attend a United Church (you know, that church that some evangelists consider a church of the devil because we accept all people). Anyways, I'm involved in some activities there and even chair a committee. But lately I've been questioning my faith altogether. So what I'm doing now, I guess, is just writing out my thoughts so that I can get more clarity to figure out what exactly I believe.
I am 26 years old. I've been a Christian since I was five. Went through some difficult times with addictions at the age of 19 and when I was 20 I attended a local Bible College where I became indoctrinated every day about Salvation and Hell and Evil this and Evil that, etc. I graduated with a diploma but after graduation I began questioning my faith and explored other religions (became a Muslim briefly). Didn't know what to believe anymore and finally came back to the United Church.
In my recovery progam I have often sensed my higher power more than I do at church. I have so many unanswered questions when it comes to religion in general and the Bible in particular. And yet, when I think about it more and more, I do have the answers. I'm just too afraid to acknowledge them. It feels like the truth is staring me in the face but something is holding me back.
I consider myself to be a spiritual person. I believe in a higher power, but I am beginning to wonder if maybe this being is simply the creator and is the source of all of us humans. When we die, we return to that source. Did he/she/it really intend for all this hypocricy in religion and for people to kill each other in God's name?
The doctrine that I have the biggest problem with, is the concept of hell. How God could make various peoples, knowing they would have various beliefs and religions, and then condemning them to hell because they were born into the wrong religion. Also, Pre-Destination. God creates us and then Pre-Destines us to heaven or hell and rather than not creating us at all, he makes us and then says.... sorry you can't enter my kingdom because I already pre-destined you to burn in hell for all eternity. It kind of contradicts the notion of free will.
Anyways, I recently finished reading "The Davinci Code". It was a good book and it got me thinking about the church and hypocricy and stuff like that. A lot of evangilists and right wingers are scared of this book because they know that if people start thinking for themselves, they won't need religion anymore. The church will crumble, but not just church, other religions as well. If there is a God, wouldn't he want us to love and respect one another and to do good works to benefit humanity? Eat, Drink and be Merry, for today we LIVE!!!!
Life is short. I believe there are still things for me to discover that I don't quite understand. Maybe I need a vacation from church to clear my head. I don't know. Any suggestions any of you reading this may have, feel free to e-mail me. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for letting me vent briefly.
Regina
SK
Canada
Joined: 5
Left: 26?
Was: Many, currently United.
Now: Seeker of Truth
Converted because: local group converted me
De-converted because: Questioned everything
email: spare at accesscomm dot ca
Comments
Beliefs are cheap. There are billions of them. Sorting out beliefs only leads from one delusion to another.
" ... It feels like the truth is staring me in the face but something is holding me back. ..."
Hi Harry,
That feeling holding you back is religious guilt buddy. Churches are great at giving us guilt and fear to keep us in line.
Since you have been in religion so long, don't expect it to go away quickly. You have been for all intents and purposes brainwashed.
Just keep your head up and stare right back at the reality you find in your human existence. Eventually, it will become part of your belief system, and the guilt and fear will melt away.
As they say in AA, one day at a time, and keep coming back!
Your friend,
Onanite
I used to think that true believers were just STUPID, but as the article demonstrates, it is more like a MENTAL ILLNESS, than a matter of intelligence!
http://skepdic.com/truebeliever.html
true-believer syndrome
The need to believe in phony wonders sometimes exceeds not only logic but, seemingly, even sanity.
--The Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher
The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable. How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--indeed, clings to it all the harder?
--M. Lamar Keene
True-believer syndrome is an expression coined by M. Lamar Keene to describe an apparent cognitive disorder characterized by believing in the reality of paranormal or supernatural events after one has been presented overwhelming evidence that the event was fraudulently staged. Keene is a reformed phony psychic who exposed religious racketeering—to little effect, apparently. Phony faith healers, psychics, channelers, televangelists miracle workers, etc., are as abundant as ever.....................
Dan (Who is beginning to believe that we may not have been down out of the trees long enough)
Very erudite post. Enjoyable, edifying and nicely put. I'm going to copy it into a WP file on my computer so I can re-look at it from time-to-time. I hope that doesn't upset you - I'm not going to publish it or steal your copyright.
If Harry doesn't get some helpful insights from you, xrayman and thinksmart, I'll be adversely surprised.
Refelecting, the entire thread has a certain something to it! Well said, everyone.
Good for you, questioning in the first place. "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." Thomas Jefferson
As far as your comments about predestined to hell, that comes from Calvinist doctrine, mostly found in Baptist churches that were over run with them in the 70’s. They believe, some more then others, that some are predestined to go to hell before they are even born. They do not believe that God loves all. An extreme version of this would be the WBC in Kansas the protest funerals with the most hateful signs you can imagine like "thank God for 9/11" and MUCH worse.
I spent years of my childhood searching for God. I attended many of my friend’s churches from Bahia to Catholic and everything in-between. God never spoke to me. I never found what I was looking for. I am now very comfortable and happy in my belief that I am a spiritual person that submits to no God. I am guided by my own morals and ethics. I no longer fear death even if this is all there is, because if it is just lights out at death, this was good enough. Blind faith is just that, blind. To me no God would allow just what you point out. The wars, the torture, the 100’s of millions killed in the name of God. It is never ending.
“Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...”
John Lennon
and most idiotic doctrine of the church,...hell.This one idea will eventually be the undoing of literalist christianity.
No thinking,(sane) person can believe such a nightmare as hell.
I believe hell doctrines cause mental illness, and those who teach it are abusers of mankind in the worst way!
p.s. the d.v. code was good not great,...but then again i took my four kids ( it was too long for them.)
I've been where you are right now, where you question everything you believe in. It's not fun, but it doesn't last.
As a spiritual seeker myself, I no longer see christianity as a big part of the universe. It's a stepping stone for those who are on the way to something higher. It works for those who need structure and firm rules and guidelines to go by. It's just a starting point, one of the lower rungs on the ladder of self-growth.
As for the question of "Did god intend for all this hypocricy in religion?" the answer to that is: I don't think God cares about religion. God lets us do whatever we want, including creating religions that have some harmful beliefs in them. God is far more interested in how we treat each other, rather then what we choose to believe. I believe that at the end of our lives, we'll see everything that we've done, and what will matter the most is how we've treated each other.
Try this website (www.near-death.com). It helped me greatly when I started my new course as a spiritual seeker. In addition, try these links. They may help you out as well:
Religion: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html
Hell: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html
I wasn't going to entertain your comment, but...
"If "The Da Vinci Code" was already feeding the flames of controversy with its challenge to the basic tenets of Christianity, actor Ian McKellen managed to pour a refinery tank's worth of gasoline on the fire on this morning's 'Today' show, asserting that the Bible should carry a disclaimer saying that it is "fiction."
http://newsbusters.org/node/5402?from=90&comments_per_page=90
MQ, the Da Vinci Code, is just as, no, no, no, actually it is "much more" correct than the bible, if the bible is said to be infallible, and the inerrant word of a god. If you remove the infallible and divine aspect to the bible, you may be able to make an argument, but then, we are just comparing novels at that point, right.
Personally, I think the bible, is a piece of shoddy literature, it has its pornographic scenes, a little human sacrifice, drinking of blood, zodiac rituals, etc., but yet, it still sucks in transition, especially between the old testament books and the new testaments books, with the glorious number 66, yeah, that makes all the ritualistic sense in the world. Supersitious numerology.
Anyway, there MQ59, what has a bee in your bonnet about the movie, regarding theoloy? If you are going to take a strategy to debunk the movie, you'd best state you don't agree how the "facts" were pieced together, as opposed, to taking an assinine stand about the "facts" themselves, because there are a load of "facts", historically supported throughout the movie.
Amusing that the bible, throughout its obvious metaphorical writings etc., has its share of references to historical "facts", unfortunately, it suffers in transitional errors itself, but chrisitans have no problem ignoring the transitional errors, that skeptics point out endlessly it seems as contradictions, grossly erroneous scientific statements, etc.
Talk about idiots, christians need to accept their fictional work, and get on with life, and if a movie is presented to present another view of the possible ways that the facts could link together, well, then what's their beef. I would suggest only the fundamentalists have the problem as they stick to inerrancy of the literal word, and are too ignorant to see the faulty transitions - perhaps literacy would clear that up though.
Read it again.
You are self-righteous and sanctimonious as hell!
I used to rage at God over the hell thing and over the fact that no
thinking person can accept one part of the Bible without rejecting other
parts. I once wrote a poem, "The Insane God." It talked about this
mad being who sat on his throne in heaven and got off on watching "the
smoke of their torment (Unbelievers in hell) ascending forever and ever"
(A paraphrase from the back of Revelation). When I think about a God
who calls himself good being able to endure sending people to hell I
think of Nazi Germany as a metaphore for all of creation and the
concentration camps as hell. But it is not the starving Jews who are in hell,
it is the prison guards. The suffering of the Jews is nothing compared
to being a well-nourished guard who serves an insane and vile master.
Being in hell would be no torment at all compared to being in a
wonderful heaven with an insane and wicked God. Who would want to come within
a billion miles of a God like that?
Ok - that's where I used to be. I made the usual mistake that most
Christians who walk away from the faith make - I listened too much to
the Bible and the speeches of "Leaders" and not enough of that Spirit
within me that yells out, "No. it's not true that God is evil. he can't burn
people alive forever and ever. How could I be capable of loving
everyone if God is capable of hating anyone?" So, for awhile, I fell away
and committed many sins.
But God brought me back. He always does. And when He did I found
myself living a much simpler Christianity. I don't believe in hell, not
like the hell we've all been sold, I don't need to. Hell is a great
motivator for some but I don't need that kind of motivation. I believe
that each person is born with a certain set of responsibilites - things
that she or he alone can accomplish for the betterment of someone else - some
use the word destiny and I have no beef with that word. Being given the
privelege of fulfilling that destiny is all the joyful motivation i
need. So, reject the parts of the Bible and the dogma that you just can't
swallow and remain intellectually honest, Harry. Maybe you'll read
those things in a different light a dozen years from now and they will
make sense to you then, meanwhile throw them out. You don't need them to
fulfill your destiny. The Bible is not the be all and end all of
Christian instruction. When you get saved you receive what Jesus
called The Spirit of Truth and "The Spirit of Truth wil lead you into
all truth." (John 16:13). You've got the Spirit of Truth within you,
let Him take you where the Bible and the all the pulpit talk of well
meaning but not totally enlightened preachers (Even the Great Apostle Paul
said that we only "..see through a glass darkly" - First Corinthians
13:12. If even he was partially, maybe even mostly, in the dark, then
you know that all the rest of us are partially in the dark as well.) can
never take you - to the fulfillment of your own personal destiny.
I'm not the kind of Christian who agonizes over this ritual or that
doctrine anymore - I'm now the kind of Christian who wakes up everyday
and says, "Okay, God, what little bitty thing can I do for the Kingdom
today. I don't have it all figured out, I never will in this life -
just give me a job and help me do it. Let me love like you love."
Saint John in all his writings talks about love and light,. In First
John he says over and over, "God is love." Trust me, old friend, a
being who is pure love is not sending anybody to hell forever - it might
look like the Bible says that but I don't believe it. After all, would
you or I condemn even the worst person to hell for eternity? Of course
not. If we flawed humans can be kinder then that - how can we imagine
a good and perfect God NOT being at least as kind as we are?
I've taken too much of your time, Harry. But I think it will help
you if you become a "Who can I help today?" Christian like I am now rather
than the "I've gotta get all this stuff figured out." Christian that I
used to be. WE are construction workers, Harry. We are building God's City of earth Ask for daily
construction orders - don't ask to see a blue print for the building a the
whole city - that's just more info than we really need.
One more thing, Harry., I am progressively writing
a bit more about stuff like this at my blog. If you are interested,
check out
"Sure, You Can Love Everone!" at
www.sweetsweetsurrender.blogspot.com.
Thanks for your priceless time. You're going to be great. Give
somebody a cup of cold water and write me back. I am always hungry for
wird from fellow truth seekers and I know you can help me so much more
than i can help you.
Marion Doerflinger
mdd1957@yahoo.com
What do you expect from us,..to be like you ,or jeebus? Come on, your on an EX-christian website.Wake up man! You guys are all alike,.... dumb.
this particular web site is mainly for people who are discouraged with 'Christianity' for whatever reason. The people here will provide you with information that is biased towards perceiving Christianity negatively. Your faith and beliefs are something you as an individual should figure out on your own with your God. Since you are in a state of vulnerability where you are confused i suggest you see a pastor to help clear up any misconceptions you may have or pray about them. Maybe the church you are attending is not the right one for you so feel free to visit others. I don't understand what you mean by your church not accepting others, does this mean it closes its doors to people? A church should be accepting of people no matter what race, religion, background, gender etc. you come from. Remember that a church should be doing its best to follow the bible. When you see the pastor let him know about this. Don't be judgmental though he may not even be aware his congregation is excluding people. Good luck to you.
A church! And who builds the churches? Some God?
No! A man builds churches and I've never heard of any woman building a church! But I'm sure you have!
Before Columbus discovered America, there was not one single church build on American soil, that must have been such a wondeful time, before Columbus.
If some stupid God wanted worship, he would build the churches himself, after all remember he built the whole universe in just 6 days, churches would have been so easy to construct compared to the solar system.
Man in his fear of death and ignorance, builds churches!
Just as you're afraid to leave a name, you fraidy cat, bow down to your fake jesus and god!
Why do you call yourself a 'christ'ian?
If you choose not to believe in hell, then what did 'christ' save us from?
Your logic, that a loving god would never do that, is correct, but your conclusions are wacked, I think because you've started from a wrong foundation for that logic.
Garbage In, Gabage Out.
Each voting option brought with it different cons. For instance, declaring Jesus as the OT El, totally conflicted with "El", the god of the OT's plan to send a messenger/mortal messiah to earth to carry out his plans, i.e., the messianic prophsies of the OT, etc. If they declared Jesus to be El, then Jesus sent himself to sacrifice himself, to himself. Although, the council didn't seem to come together to vote on the mortality of Jesus, they made a statement about his mortality, by suggesting that he was one or the other, either of the same substance of El, or of similar substance as El. Either choice, made a decision about the non-mortality of the Jesus legend.
Nicene Creed:
1-Jesus Christ is described as "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God," confirming his divinity. When all light sources were natural, the essence of light was considered to be identical, regardless of its form.
Note: Jesus was suggested as having the exact "same substance", thus he was considered to be the same as the god "EL", at that time, and that included all the "powers" associated with an omnipotent being. Jesus was said to have sacrificed himself, in order to close out the exclusive Jewish Old Covenant, and to bring in the New Covenant at that time, the tradition of original sin, wasn't used as an excuse to have Jesus sacrifice himself at this point in the early church. Original sin came a little later. This closure of the OT was conflicted, as the Jewish Messiah was to be a mortal, "not" a god of same substance as "EL", hence the original Nicene Creed was erroneous according to their oral and written traditions, that includes the Old Testament, which they authored.
2-Jesus Christ is said to be "begotten, not made," asserting his co-eternalness with God, and confirming it by stating his role in the Creation.
Note: His role, in the "creation" of him as a "god" of same substance of the Jewish God "El", was established at this council. In other words, the dude wasn't born, he was "created", later on the "holy ghost" is established as the medium for the creation, as, obviously there was no "form" to move from the supernatural to the natural realm.
3-Finally, he is said to be "from the substance of the Father," in direct opposition to Arianism. Some ascribe the term Consubstantial, i.e., "of the same substance" (of the Father), to Constantine who, on this particular point, may have chosen to exercise his authority.
So, after denying the Jews their Mortal Messiah, the council votes to shaft the Arians;
"Arius taught that God the Father and the Son were not co-eternal, seeing the pre-incarnate Jesus as a divine being but nonetheless created by (and consequently inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
Basically, the original council voted, to rid themselves of the Jewish religion, by ending the Old Testament with Jesus as their mortal messiah (didn't work), and thus establish a new "Covenant". By creating a "god" or divine Jesus, the Arians and all other religious sects who believed in mortal Jesus were shafted.
So, there wasn't a mortal vote directly, but, by voting on the nicene creed, Jesus' immortality/mortality was established.
MQ59: "That's the primary theological/historical problem with "The Da Vinci Code." I do not believe Jesus was married and had kids, but if He did, that shouldn't affect Christianity too much."
You assert that Jesus' mortality shouldn't affect christianity? Are you speaking of christianity from your own personal view, or the thousands of demoninations that have their own peculiar brand of christian belief?
Those who have some position regarding mortal Jesus, who don't agree with the nicene creed are as follows, and they were considered heretical to the Roman Catholic Church.
Adoptionism
Antinomianism
Apollinarism
Arianism
Audianism
Bogomils
Bosnian Church
Catharism
Docetism
Donatism
Euchites
Gnosticism
Henry the Monk
Jansenism
Luciferians
Lollardy
Mandaeism
Manichaeism
Marcionism
Millennialism
Monarchianism
Monophysitism
Monothelitism
Montanism
Nestorianism
Ophites
Patripassianism
Paulicianism
Pelagianism/Semipelagianism
Peter of Bruis
Priscillianism
Psilanthropism
Sabellianism
Socianism
Waldensians
These movements/theological belief systems of christianity went against the nicene creed's vote, and the people who were listed as heretics and laid their lives on the line to support such beliefs.
So, in a very "real" sense, the fact that Jesus was either mortal or not mortal, does in "fact" seem to make a "colossal" difference, just peruse some history and do some research on those who were murdered as heretics, they tend to disagree with your point of view MQ59.
Christian: "A religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Christ: "Messiah: any expected deliverer."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
An expected deliverer. If a christian is defined in these terms, then obviously one has to assert that the messianic "delivery" provided was the salvation of all humanity through Jesus' sacrifice (obviously before original sin, etc.).
The Jews didn't get their FedEx delivery, no New Kingdom for them, they got postponed until a later delivery date was established, and in line with the authorities of The Early Roman Church.
The Early Roman Church, stated that the delivery was the salvation provided to all humanity, and the delivery from Jewish laws in general. Their version of a divine Jesus was also a delivery of a unified theocratic religion, that provided salvation for everyone, not just the Jews, if their citizens followed the Empires' religious laws.
Other religious sects/denominations created their own "Jesus", and what he "delivered", as they didn't agree with the control methods of the Roman Catholic Church and papacy. These denominations, heretical as they were labelled, saw a delivery from the early Roman Church, and their votes as well.
It all comes down to delivery, and "delivery" is based on mortality. Obviously, Jesus being a mortal, would have denied the delivery for many religious sects. And, although Christianity is used as a broad term to describe followers of "Jesus", the legend. Its painfully obvious, that many religious sects aren't talking about the "same substance" Jesus. In short, one could suggest that there are many "types" of Christianity, based on how they perceive Jesus, and his "delivery" method, personal substance, and timing.
Divine: "Godhead: terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God
appropriate to or befitting a god."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Well, I am using the Judeo-Christian definition of "Divine", perhaps you are using a different definition. If you accept that "Divine" equals befitting of a "Same Substance" god, then, obviously, MQ, we are talking about a god, who by legend would have "fathered" children, thus, making them demi-gods, at minimum, or full-blown god children if the mother was also "Divine".
Now, if you want to suggest that divine means, well, inspired by a god and Jesus was mortal, then the "roots" of christianity, are based on "lies", vis-a-vis The First Council of Nicaea who stated Jesus was of the "same substance" as "God".
So, are you a heretic MQ, or not, do you believe Jesus is made of the exact same substance as "god", or not. Same substance, means, equal to the God El, and worthy of fulfilling supernatural miracles, kind of like, creating some miracle like the salvation of the entire human race from exclusive Judaism. It takes a god of equal substance, to remove a gods' promise, i.e., the promises made to the Jews in their Old Testament prophesies, etc.
If you don't believe Jesus was of the "same substance", then the new testaments' authority is lacking, and thus christianity loses its credibility, as that means Judaism is still founded on the Old Covenant laws, and is still authoritative. A mortal Jesus, with kids, doesn't undo the Old Testament laws there MQ, thus was the quandry for The First Council of Nicaea and their "deliberate" vote to end Orthodox Judaism.
Unite the empire, and close down Exclusive Judaism, that was what the vote was about there MQ, and that meant deliberately voting against the mortality of Jesus, as they needed a "god" to undo the Jews' god El's promise.
No "Divine" Jesus, no end of Old Testament. No end of Old Testament, then, no New Testament. No, New Testament, then, no Christianity as there is then only one god, and that's the Jewish god "El". If one follows El, they're Jewish not Christian.
MQ59: "And the Lollards and Waldensians can be described as proto-Protestants--their position vis-a-vis the Trinity was orthodox."
"In the early 15th century, Lollardy went underground after more extreme measures were taken by the Church and State. The one of these measures was the burning at the stake of John Badby, a layman and artisan who refused to renounce his Lollard views. His was the first execution of a layman in England for the crime of heresy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lollardy
Well, perhaps, the nobility, royalty and orthodox roman catholic church thought different, it appears they needed to murder on the ground of heresy.
"The Waldensians are a Christian denomination believing in poverty and austerity, founded around 1173, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the literal interpretation of the scriptures. Declared heretical, the movement was brutally persecuted by the Roman Catholic church during the 12th and 13th centuries and nearly totally destroyed, but the Waldensian Church survives to this day."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
MQ59: "And the Nestorians were orthodox as well--the Pope and Patriarch misunderstood Nestorius's position re: the pre-existence of God the Son."
"Nestorianism is the Christian doctrine that Jesus existed as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. This doctrine is identified with Nestorius (c.386–c.451), Patriarch of Constantinople. This view of Christ was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and the conflict over this view led to the Nestorian schism, separating the Assyrian Church of the East from the Byzantine Church.
Historical references to Nestorians are to the Assyrian Church of the East, commonly described as Nestorian because it refused to drop support for Nestorius and denounce him as an heretic."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism
MQ59: "And Jansenism is a sort of "Calvinist Catholicism"--the nature of Christ is not a disputed matter."
"Jansenism emphasized original sin, human depravity, the necessity of divine grace, and predestination. In Jansenist thought, human beings were born sinful, and without divine help a human being could never become good. Ironically, this led the Jansenists to seek to exhibit a high level of piety and moral rectitude, and prepare carefully through prayer and confession before receiving Communion (hence Jansenists favored less frequent reception). The Jansenist idea of predestination, based on Augustine's writing and close to that of Calvinism, was that only a portion of human beings, the "elect", were destined to be saved. Unlike Calvinism, however, Jansenism lacked a doctrine of assurance, making salvation unknowable even to the "saved"."
The Ultimate Fundies, everyone sucks, humanity is garbage, and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it. Then, throw in that there is pre-destination, and fatalism, but no one really knows who the truly saved are.
"Jansenism was condemned as heretical in several papal bulls, notably by Pope Innocent X, Alexander VII (Ad Sanctam Beati Petri Sedem - Catholic Encyclopedia article) and Clement XI (Unigenitus). It is interesting to note that because Jansen himself died before his work was published and he included statements of submission to the Roman church in it, he himself was never considered a heretic. The final condemnation of Jansenism was by St. Pius X, who advocated daily communion and communion for children as soon as they could distinguish the host."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jansenism
The movement was heretical, according to St. Pius X, and instead of murdering as was the natural modus operandi per the Roman Catholic church, you get brainwashing children as soon as they can understand how to recognize a host, yeah, murder, brainwashing, etc., to outdo the other religions who obviously had differing views on Jesus' divinity.
Bottom line, if you weren't Catholic and supporting the Roman Catholic hierarchy, and nobility who profited from the religious hierarchy, you were considered a threat. Religion isn't about what is morally right, its about control.
i think you are going through a pretty normal phase that everyone goes through. I am a Christian and i do believe in God. Certain miracles have taken place in my life and in the lives of members of my family so from my perspective it would be rather dumb for me to not have faith in something that works for me.
I am still learning a lot though and also hit some rough patches and doubt God even though he has come through many times for me before. It says in the bible that faith is a gift so ask for it.
You know something that concerns me a bit is that you mentioned that you learned about all the doctrines etc. I watched this programme with Nicky Gumbel in it. He said something that really stuck in my head. People often read up all the verses in the bible, underline them, sing songs with passages of the bible in them etc. He then went on and said think of the bible as a car manual. We can underline the things in the manual that we think are important, sing songs about it etc. but it won't help much if we don't bother to drive the car. By all means learn them but don't focus on the philosophical concepts too much. God really will give you more understanding of his word as you grow in him. Like in all relationships learning about a person is a process that takes time.
You also mentioned that you sometimes feel more spiritually charged outside of church. There really is nothing wrong with that. In fact God encourages us to spend time with him alone when he can really speak into our hearts as well as fellowship with people. I think that is pretty brilliant that you feel like that outside of church too.
I know the CBN counsellors are pretty helpful if you are not yet ready to chat to your pastor, sometimes talking to a stranger is easier.
You can call CBN and ask for guidance, as if they are the central headquarters for God and his angels.
You can call Liberty Baptist Church for prayer and counsultation, like they are the central headquarters for God and all his angels.
You can call Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Myers, Leroy Jenkins, Dr. Gene Scott, Robert Schuller, Oral Roberts, etc. etc. etc. all these people are direct spokespeople for God, all these good people represent God they are his mouth piece, if you will, they have all the knowledge of the universe bestowed upon them by their own righteousness.
How have (WE) as intelligent human beings allowed this bullshit to get so out of hand?
Why do we let what a bunch of drugheads and wino's wrote down on clay tablets over 2000 years ago control our society and our own mental processes?
How could we as intelligent human beings have let this happen?
If there had never been a Bible, could humans survive, without an imaginary god?
Why do we need an imaginary god to control us and validate us?
Why does society need beliefs to survive in every day life?
Perhaps travelers from the future and from Alpha Centauri traveled light-years across time and space to arrange the resurrection of Jesus through advanced science so that human history would be mired in religious dogma for 2000 years, fail to advance in any of the sciences, and eventually be destroyed in a self-destructive, nuclear, religious Armageddon.
Perhaps...
Perhaps...
Perhaps....
Perhaps fantasy is reality and reality is debatable. Perhaps love is hate. Perhaps "maybe" is the opposite of "it-might-be."
Wow...
Perhaps saying perhaps makes maybe into absolutely, and therefore sometimes becomes always!
I get it !
I get it!!!!
Perhaps = IT IS TRUE!!!
COOL!
Proof?...you've GOT to be kidding. Since when does "proof" matter to a Christian? lol
Observe: *Maybe* the redactors of the Holy Bible were drunks; *perhaps* they were drunks; *there's a chance* they were drunks; it *could be* that they were drunks; "blah blah" translation said they were drunks; it's *likely* they were drunks; *seems to me* that they were drunks. Sick yet?.....good, because this is the SAME exact UNcertain jargon that is used in the SAME exact subjective way that "others" use in their case FOR biblegod, his bastard son, and their "how to" handbook.
It's called a DOUBLE-STANDARD.
Almost every single day you say something to the effect that: Perhaps there exists something outside the known universe. Possibly it simply exists without any explanation; maybe it has no beginning; it could be that it is incomprehensible; surely it cannot be seen, tasted, or touched; it's likely that it does not answer to the laws of nature; perhaps it cannot be scientifically discovered or known; it could be intelligent; maybe it has a really bad temper when disrespected; and it is very likely that it might talks direct to me (MQ59).
Or perhaps, MQ59, you are completely dense. Or maybe, MQ59, you are terribly mistaken. Or, very likely, MQ59, you are just a fanatic.
In determining the validity of any of the above statements, perhaps Occam's razor might serve best.
The one thing you said that has made sense, MQ, is this: "...novel. It'd be a controversial one, but it'd sell."
Exactly! It'd sell! It'd sell because people love a good fantasy story. In fact, if the story is fantastic enough, people mightl make it into a religion. They could call that religion Christianity, but I think, perhaps, that name's already been taken.
Honestly MQ, you are annoyingly thick. And your attempt at being a smartass is weak.
So a deity-nature isn't inherited but a sin-nature is inherited. So sin is passed on but godness isn't. So Jesus' dad was a god, but since deity-natures aren't passed on, then that possibly means Jesus wasn't a god, but maybe he did get the sin-nature from his virginal vaginal mom.
It could be that bothering to respond to this individual is a complete waste of time.