No Longer One Of Them
sent in by S.L. Nield
I come from a family of pure Atheists! My Dad and Mum answered my childish questions 'what happens when you die?' With I believe unashamed and commendable honesty 'I don't know, but you do live on in the minds of those who love you'. 'Does Jesus love us all' 'If he did exist, I suppose he would'. When I got a bit older, I found myself gravitating to Biblegod and all his works! I got involved with some intense evangelical types (Yes, they exist across here) and due to personal circumstance, I reached out and found what I was looking for in them. At 17 I( gave my heart to the Lord, which (honestly)upset my Mum and Dad. My Dad, now dead, lectured me on how it was all pretense, kiddology, as he put it, and my Mum switched the living room light off and said, 'see, that's what happens to us when we die, we just disappear, like that light did'. Even my gentle Uncle shook his head and said, with great regret, 'how can you believe something that has caused so many wars and troubles?' But I had all the answered (I was an obnoxious little snot, superior in my faith, quoting the Bible and looking down at lesser mortals. I became a total bore, bringing everything around to the Lord and his love. My only defence is that it was a bit of teenage rebellion, plus I did feel a bit better plus it was my duty to spread the word)!
My relatives finally came around to my beliefs and once I was clear of their objections and moved into the more rarefied atmosphere of young adulthood I discovered that maybe the Bible wasn't right about everything. The one that got me was how god killed people for not following a coventant that was totally forgotten, made many generations back by a king or group of priests! I thought; Where's free will then? I questioned my Christian elders and they shook their heads, some admitting they didn't understand, others telling me to pray for more faith (I believe, help my unbelief was quoted at me a lot).
But it did not answer my questions; Then I discovered a copy of Bishop John Robinson's 1963 published book 'Honest To God'. I read it in one go and discovered there were other ways of looking at the world, including one that seemed more reasonable to me, the doctrine of Deism. The Deist god created us and left us to it. A bit like planting a seed and leaving it to grow (I know it's a bad anology, but I'm sure you know what I'm trying to say).
Meanwhile, I was now in my mid twenties and across to my early thirties I fought the questions and matured in my faith and was given jobs in the church, like looking after the Sunday School where I made the mistake of telling them, fielding their innocent questions ie 'why does it rain when I want to play out'? Or 'Why did god let my hamster die'? With the Deist philosophy, 'You see, god created us all, wound us up and let us go, and things happen due to nature and evolution, it's nothing to do with god'. I got into such trouble!
Anyhow, fast forward down the years, and the idea that the Biblegod was a cantakerous, grumpy old man, hating people to think for themselves, grew in me, but the fear of eternal damnation, of committing the sin against the holy spirit kept me in line. My questions were shook off, ignored, I was told to grow up, if I was a true Christian I shouldn't question the lord's love, and even my conversion was put in question!
Eventually, I broke off from the church, read the Bible on my own, along with other philosophies, dualism, that god and the devil and equal opposite forces, deism of course, and Unitarian Universalism which says god is one, there is no trinity etc, and even the notion we are all god and god is in us all, ie Pantheism, and it was only Christmas 2004 when I could admit, 'This is all a load of rubbish'.
I was sitting on my bed reading the Bible when it came to me, like a sort of reverse conversion, a god-free revelation;
'The Bible was written by men to keep us in line'!
Not exactly new news, I know, but believe me, the liberation I felt!
Well, the proverbial muck hit the fan! I went to my church and told them what I'd discovered, using my brain and the writings of others. Alright, suppose god does exist. I mean he created the universe and all in it. Would he really care if we didn't give ten per cent of our earnings or decide to have romances with someone of our own sex? I was told I was upsetting everyone, no one wanted to hear my lies, and I could come back to church as long as I could honestly worship god! I was told that I just wanted to live a sinful life, which is a joke as anyone who knows me will know, I live a quiet life and my idea, even now, of an exiting weekend is sitting with the radio on and reading some non fiction!Or if I want a real buzz, I slip in a 'Columbo' DVD and enjoy!
One or two, people I consider true friends, quietly defended me and my honesty, and told me to go out into the world and try my own way.
For the next few weeks, I was telephoned at home, specially on a Sunday, and informed I'd missed the service again, and if I didn't buck my ideas up, I would be off to hell. After all, to forsake such a great salvation left me worse off than I was. Then I was told I probably wasn't saved at all. THEN I was told I'd lost my salvation. I tried to reason but all I was got the equilivant of the schoolkid trick, you know, when you try and talk to them they stick their fingers in their ears and say 'la la la, can't hear you'!
To be honest, one or two were honestly concerned about ME and my eternal salvation, but those were the ones who came around to my going my own way, 'you've got to try doing your own'.
It's been over a year now since I turned it all in, and am still uncertain, shaky about my eternal salvation although about a year back I was making myself a cup of tea when it came home to me, a road to Damascus type thing;
There is no god!
If there is, he doesn't care what you do!
No one will come back and seperate believers from unbelievers!
You have to rely on yourself, cause there is no one else!
To sum up: I didn't give up Jesus because I wanted to live a 'sinful' life, go my own way, I was almost forced into my non belief with great reluctance because reason and logic tells me that if god exists he made everything, or started everything off, and just like a scientist in charge of a lab, he doesn't condemn to eternal punishment those ants who don't waggle their antena in worship of him. If he did, he would be a meglomanic and the other scientists would soon question his objectivity if not his sanity!
Before I close, when I told my Mum she hugged me and said 'welcome back to the real world, love!'
If only my Dad had been around to see this!
All the best.
Manchester
England
How old were you when you became a christian? 17
How old were you when you ceased being a christian? 41
What churches or organizations or labels have applied to you? Evangelical Protestant Christian
What labels, if any, would you apply to yourself now? Deist leaning toward Atheist
Why did you become a christian? To make myself feel better about myself and the world around me
Why did you de-convert? Applying reason and logic; It just didn't make sense!
Tammy08 at Hotmail dot co dot uk
I come from a family of pure Atheists! My Dad and Mum answered my childish questions 'what happens when you die?' With I believe unashamed and commendable honesty 'I don't know, but you do live on in the minds of those who love you'. 'Does Jesus love us all' 'If he did exist, I suppose he would'. When I got a bit older, I found myself gravitating to Biblegod and all his works! I got involved with some intense evangelical types (Yes, they exist across here) and due to personal circumstance, I reached out and found what I was looking for in them. At 17 I( gave my heart to the Lord, which (honestly)upset my Mum and Dad. My Dad, now dead, lectured me on how it was all pretense, kiddology, as he put it, and my Mum switched the living room light off and said, 'see, that's what happens to us when we die, we just disappear, like that light did'. Even my gentle Uncle shook his head and said, with great regret, 'how can you believe something that has caused so many wars and troubles?' But I had all the answered (I was an obnoxious little snot, superior in my faith, quoting the Bible and looking down at lesser mortals. I became a total bore, bringing everything around to the Lord and his love. My only defence is that it was a bit of teenage rebellion, plus I did feel a bit better plus it was my duty to spread the word)!
My relatives finally came around to my beliefs and once I was clear of their objections and moved into the more rarefied atmosphere of young adulthood I discovered that maybe the Bible wasn't right about everything. The one that got me was how god killed people for not following a coventant that was totally forgotten, made many generations back by a king or group of priests! I thought; Where's free will then? I questioned my Christian elders and they shook their heads, some admitting they didn't understand, others telling me to pray for more faith (I believe, help my unbelief was quoted at me a lot).
But it did not answer my questions; Then I discovered a copy of Bishop John Robinson's 1963 published book 'Honest To God'. I read it in one go and discovered there were other ways of looking at the world, including one that seemed more reasonable to me, the doctrine of Deism. The Deist god created us and left us to it. A bit like planting a seed and leaving it to grow (I know it's a bad anology, but I'm sure you know what I'm trying to say).
Meanwhile, I was now in my mid twenties and across to my early thirties I fought the questions and matured in my faith and was given jobs in the church, like looking after the Sunday School where I made the mistake of telling them, fielding their innocent questions ie 'why does it rain when I want to play out'? Or 'Why did god let my hamster die'? With the Deist philosophy, 'You see, god created us all, wound us up and let us go, and things happen due to nature and evolution, it's nothing to do with god'. I got into such trouble!
Anyhow, fast forward down the years, and the idea that the Biblegod was a cantakerous, grumpy old man, hating people to think for themselves, grew in me, but the fear of eternal damnation, of committing the sin against the holy spirit kept me in line. My questions were shook off, ignored, I was told to grow up, if I was a true Christian I shouldn't question the lord's love, and even my conversion was put in question!
Eventually, I broke off from the church, read the Bible on my own, along with other philosophies, dualism, that god and the devil and equal opposite forces, deism of course, and Unitarian Universalism which says god is one, there is no trinity etc, and even the notion we are all god and god is in us all, ie Pantheism, and it was only Christmas 2004 when I could admit, 'This is all a load of rubbish'.
I was sitting on my bed reading the Bible when it came to me, like a sort of reverse conversion, a god-free revelation;
'The Bible was written by men to keep us in line'!
Not exactly new news, I know, but believe me, the liberation I felt!
Well, the proverbial muck hit the fan! I went to my church and told them what I'd discovered, using my brain and the writings of others. Alright, suppose god does exist. I mean he created the universe and all in it. Would he really care if we didn't give ten per cent of our earnings or decide to have romances with someone of our own sex? I was told I was upsetting everyone, no one wanted to hear my lies, and I could come back to church as long as I could honestly worship god! I was told that I just wanted to live a sinful life, which is a joke as anyone who knows me will know, I live a quiet life and my idea, even now, of an exiting weekend is sitting with the radio on and reading some non fiction!Or if I want a real buzz, I slip in a 'Columbo' DVD and enjoy!
One or two, people I consider true friends, quietly defended me and my honesty, and told me to go out into the world and try my own way.
For the next few weeks, I was telephoned at home, specially on a Sunday, and informed I'd missed the service again, and if I didn't buck my ideas up, I would be off to hell. After all, to forsake such a great salvation left me worse off than I was. Then I was told I probably wasn't saved at all. THEN I was told I'd lost my salvation. I tried to reason but all I was got the equilivant of the schoolkid trick, you know, when you try and talk to them they stick their fingers in their ears and say 'la la la, can't hear you'!
To be honest, one or two were honestly concerned about ME and my eternal salvation, but those were the ones who came around to my going my own way, 'you've got to try doing your own'.
It's been over a year now since I turned it all in, and am still uncertain, shaky about my eternal salvation although about a year back I was making myself a cup of tea when it came home to me, a road to Damascus type thing;
There is no god!
If there is, he doesn't care what you do!
No one will come back and seperate believers from unbelievers!
You have to rely on yourself, cause there is no one else!
To sum up: I didn't give up Jesus because I wanted to live a 'sinful' life, go my own way, I was almost forced into my non belief with great reluctance because reason and logic tells me that if god exists he made everything, or started everything off, and just like a scientist in charge of a lab, he doesn't condemn to eternal punishment those ants who don't waggle their antena in worship of him. If he did, he would be a meglomanic and the other scientists would soon question his objectivity if not his sanity!
Before I close, when I told my Mum she hugged me and said 'welcome back to the real world, love!'
If only my Dad had been around to see this!
All the best.
Manchester
England
How old were you when you became a christian? 17
How old were you when you ceased being a christian? 41
What churches or organizations or labels have applied to you? Evangelical Protestant Christian
What labels, if any, would you apply to yourself now? Deist leaning toward Atheist
Why did you become a christian? To make myself feel better about myself and the world around me
Why did you de-convert? Applying reason and logic; It just didn't make sense!
Tammy08 at Hotmail dot co dot uk
Comments
Indeed. Rather saddening that he wasn't. Not just for you, but also Mum and any wider family.
I'm not the kind of person who joins groups. I'm not a 'joiner'! But if it's all right I'll stick around and do my best to try and help others in the same situation as we are. (Since I've just set up a blogspot account, it would be daft to let it go to waste)!
Thank you again.
By the way, my first name is Sarah
It's an analogy. Not proof, not evidence, but analogy. I happen to think it's a good analogy, as it highlights our propensity to grant independent existence to things that are simply epiphenomena of other things; e.g. shadows do not exist as independent objects, but as patterns amid other entities that do exist. Similarly, I think that god concepts exist as epiphenomena of brains, and not as independent entities.
toulouse798: "...look at the caterpillar metamorphosis into butterfly. Can we not then use that to support the suggestion that man will cease to exist in one form, and then be changed into a new form (or as scripture says) a new 'glorified' body?"
Use it as evidence? Of course not. It too is an analogy. If it has utility, it would be in pointing to similar patterns of reasoning. Feel free to do so. The argument will stand or fall based on the strength of the evidence and the soundness of the reasoning.
toulouse798: "IF (and I'm only saying IF here) there is a God who created mankind, it seems to me that He could do pretty much whatever the hell He wants to do. No?"
No question about it.
toulouse798: "The question that remains, though, would pertain to the nature or character of this so-called loving God."
Or at least our perception of that nature. Call me nutty, but I don't consider genocide, infanticide, rape, torture, etc. to be virtuous behavior, so I see no point it applying words such as "loving" or "compassionate" to a being who engages in those behaviors. I quite honestly do not know what those words would mean if I were to so apply them thus.
toulouse798: "Is it your belief then that electricity HATES you? Or electricity is EVIL? Or mean-spirited?"
No, of course not. Is it LOVING. Is it COMPASSIONATE? Those words are equally absurd.
toulouse798: "The character of God is unchanging and is loving..."
On what basis do you apply that word? How is it "loving" to brutally wipe out countless beings, many of them children?
toulouse798: "...perhaps you need to re-examine your notion of what you consider 'loving.'"
I could say the same to you!
toulouse798: "...Let's just say that He has seen fit to provide you these things, do you honestly have any RIGHT to ask anything of Him?"
That's a nonsensical question. Suppose you are abducted and tossed into a cell without food and water. Then you are tortured for a while. Do you think you have a RIGHT to ask why you are being treated in such a way? Who decides what things we have the "right" to question? If something does not make sense, or offends our sense of justice, is there some additional protocol that we must obey before we dare ask a question?
toulouse798: "Do you consider yourself DESERVING or ENTITLED to anything? What exactly does God - who has given you everything and withheld nothing - what exactly are you saying that He owes you???"
I (we) don't believe in your god, so the question is moot. But if such a being existed, and she expected something of me, then I'd greatly appreciate knowing in advance what she wants. Given that I've never seen a single shred of credible evidence for such a being, I conduct myself on the assumption that none exist. If she does exist, she knows where to find me, and she probably also knows what would convince me.
toulouse798: "It is not by coincidence that people who walk away from Christianity always seem to find fellow ex'es with whom to commiserate."
What are you insinuating? By the way, how do you know that this is "always" the case?
toulouse798: The desire to choose for oneself, to just discard everything one understands of God,....
You are making hasty judgments here. It's not a matter of simply "discarding" a set of beliefs for no reason. What would you say to the person who has critically examined their belief in Krishna, then reached the conclusion that no such being exists. I'll bet you would applaud such an individual. Yet when it is YOUR god that is deemed mythical, that is unacceptable for some reason.
toulouse798: "...do you stop to consider how mankind in general conducts himself before a perfect and holy God?"
For such an action to make the least bit of sense, one FIRST needs to consider whether such a being exists. I see absolutely no credible evidence for invisible conscious entities of any variety, hence I have no belief in such beings. Consequently, the wishes and desires of such a being are (to me) precisely as meaningful as the wishes and desires of elves and unicorns.
toulouse798: "...do you realize that you never STOPPED sinning?"
The whole "sin" argument is a ruse; it's only meaningful with respect to your purported deity. To claim anything about sin is to unilaterally grant it, and by extension your deity, existence. Nice try.
toulouse798: "That is what makes Christianity amazing, that God throughout history extends his love toward us,..."
I do not understand your definition of "love"; it seems to include murder, torture, deceit, etc. What relation does this divine application of "love" have with what we mortals show one another?
toulouse798: "You are incorrect in your summation that the Bible was written by men to keep us in line. Why do I say that? Because the fact of the matter, as I've already stated (as as the scriptures plainly say), is that WE CAN NEVER BE 'IN LINE.'"
By the same reasoning, there are no books on law written by men. Why do I say that? Because men will always break the law.
toulouse798: "...God has enabled all these things to be."
We don't believe in your god, so that's a vacuous statement.
toulouse798: "There will come a day when you will stand before Him..."
Another vacuous statement about an apparently imaginary being.
toulouse798: "Choose wisely."
I base my views on an honest appraisal of the evidence, to the best of my abilities. I believe I have been "wise" to consider both sides of the argument in great detail, for that is the only way (imho) to reach a rational decision.
He was a stray kitten that wandered onto my property one day, and in my compassion, I took him in.
I am his sovereign lord. I am the master of his fate.
That's why, yesterday, when he threw up on my carpet, I decided to grab him by the tale and throw him into my blazing BBQ pit. I was not only within my rights, but I was acting justly -- he was, after all, my property.
He is my cat.
I have every right to do whatever I want to him.
My wife took a vow to live with me for better or worse, to love and to cherish me. I decided I wanted to make love this morning, but she refused me. Imagine, me, her husband, having my affections rejected!
I warned her. I told her that I lived my life for her, would gladly lay it down for her, had sacrificed more than she could ever know. I explained to her that my love was beyond comprehension.
Nothing worked. I made my moves toward her and she pushed me away.
So, I told her that if she continued to refuse my offer of love that my anger would be kindled, and she would suffer the consequences of her actions. I warned her.
Still, she kept her legs together and would not let me in.
I beat her, not as a punishment, but as a chastisement. My love is beyond measure and because I love her, I want her to enjoy my presence and my love.
She still refused.
So I tied her in the basement and will torture her forever.
She was my wife and she had broken our covenant. My judgment is just.
You see Too-loose, we would expect a god to see things differently that we do. We should expect that a god would have a different perspective, a different viewpoint.
But we would also expect that this god, with those different outlooks, would deal with every situation in a superior way to a human.
Humans know that torturing animals is wrong. Some do it anyway, but most of us have more compassion than to torture an animal, even an animal destined for slaughter.
Your deity, however, seems to be lower than the basest sort of human. He sees no problem with the most hideous torture, when it's directed against a human who doesn't love him.
Your god has no love for his creation, he is possessive.
I am possessive about my wife, my kids, and my cat. If they displease me, then I will just have to be like your god, and torture them -- forever.
Humans have a higher regard for justice than your god.
Sin you say? Sin?
The punishment should fit the crime. Temporal sins visited by eternal punishment -- something is wrong with that picture. That is not justice, that is sadistic.
Yahweh and Allah must belong to the same social club.
No, he just throws everyone in the hell he created to suffer eternal torment. He doesn't FORCE us to go to hell, we could just do what he says -- simple.
And the rapist says to his victim, "Accept my caresses or you will suffer for it."
The victim refuses and is killed.
"I warned her of the consequences of rejecting my sweet embrace."
The judge and jury at the trial finds the rapist not-guilty.
You worship a mean son of a bitch.
CHOOSE WISELY!!!!
Yes, and my little children, when they play in the street, I talk to them - I tell them it's not safe.
Oh well, if they get hit, they get it.
Too bad.
I love them.
So sad.
Bloody mess.
Oh, and did I mention that I put cake and cookies in the middle of the street and bought a truck and hired the driver and told the driver to run them down if he saw him in the street?
See, your god made the devil, made hell, set up the whole senario -- your god is a sick sadistic peice of shit.
CHOOSE WISELY!!!
So-called "GAWD" created the people with a propensity toward rebellion, then made sure that there was temptation and a tempter right in their faces, knew what they would do, knew it would relegate most of humanity to the horrific torture of a HELL that HE created, then punished them for doing exactly what HE KNEW they would do!
Then, he kills himself, to appease himself, so that he can rescue a few of his "children" from roasting in a fire pit that HE made! But he's not really dead!
The illogic of this system is obvious to everyone except a mind-numbed cultist, like yourself.
It just don't make sense bud.
Well, I didn't create the cat, but I did create my children. They came out of me, so I suppose if they rebel against my will, then I have every right to torture them.
Your god is sick.
Great story I must share!
My 11 yr old daughter's class has to do a report on someone who changed the world.
My daughter, Katy, asked her friend who she was doing her report on? Her friend replied Abe Linclon. Katy said, "Oh, I thought you would want to do it on jesus! Her friend said that it was a thought. Katy replied that jesus was not a real person so she couldn't do it on him! Her friend said that he was real! Katy replied in a stern voice, "There is NO historical evidence that he was real"!
I must be doing something right!
Anyway, SL welcome to freedom!!!
Well, you are correct in one sense, but you have managed to completely miss the larger point. The part that you are correct about is that there is a CLASS of statements for which "I don't believe in your god" is a perfectly legitimate response; that class consists of statements that simply ASSUME THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR GOD. For example "god does X", "god feels Y", "god wants Z", etc. All such statements ASSUME there is such a being that does, or feels, or wants. If such a being does not exist, then clearly those statements are completely meaningless, so the question of existence is preeminent.
Now, I occasionally indulge in a bit of "what if" thinking anyway; e.g. your statements concerning god's "love" for mankind. While the more fundamental question is how you know such a being exists in the first place, your burden does not end there. Even if you could clear that enormous first hurdle, you must then reconcile your god's presumed behavior with what we commonly understand as "love". In my opinion you have come nowhere near clearing this second hurdle either.
toulouse798: If you were about to get hit by a truck, and I tried to warn you, and your response to me was 'I don't believe in the truck,' or 'I don't see any truck,' what more can I do? If you get hit, you get hit."
As with most of your analogies, this one can be more aptly used to demolish your own position. What you continually miss is that statements in isolation carry little to no evidentiary weight, no matter how firmly you believe them. If you tell me I'm about to get hit by a truck, while I am safely seated at my computer in my office on the third floor of a building, I will simply roll my eyes and wonder what you've been smoking. Similarly, if I tell you that you are in danger of going to Hell if you do not accept Allah as the one true god, you will likely dismiss my words as pure nonsense. Unless there is a reasonable foundation for such a statement, each of us is acting rationally in disregarding them as nonsense. Of course, this does not imply that we should stick our heads in the sand and ignore everything that initially strikes us as nonsensical, so please don't accuse me of taking that absurd position. What I'm saying is that statements lacking any foundation are to be doubted; there is no reason to accept something as true unless or until there is some EVIDENCE to support it.
toulouse798: "So I wish you well. Enjoy the choice you have made."
So I guess that means you have no intention of responding to my other points. In particular, it seems that you are either unable or unwilling to establish any foundation for the existence of your chosen deity. Well, I can echo the above sentiment: Enjoy the fantastic story that you have chosen to accept as truth.
First of all, toulouse798 I didn't CHOOSE to give up my faith. The other, older(more mature)ex Christians, Dan(Rationalist), Webmaster et all, have told it better than I could. But you say I'm still a sinner, I always was, and god owes me nothing and I've got fellow ex Christians to commiserate with well I believed all that (bar the ex-Christians who were pariahs, remember 'don't mix with unbelievers'). But. . .and here is another point. . .if god really made us and loves us and wants to save us from sin, instead of putting it in a book written by falible men thousands of years back, why doesn't he just TELL US? It says that when Jesus returns he will be seen with every eye. Well why can't Biblegod set up a massive PA system(I swear I'm not being sarcastic.) and broadcast to the whole planet that he loves us, we are all sinners and will go to hell if we don't follow him? The analogy of warning someone not to walk into the road to avoid being hit by a truck is a good one, bu, thousands of years hence,if you found a book on the ground called 'The Highway Code', and you'd never seen any evidence of trucks, no one came up to you and said 'hey, don't walk in t' road', as we'd say where I come from, why follow a book? If god is really caring why doesn't he just TELL us physically to avoid walking into the road? If he can do anything and cares about us?
Thanks for commenting, anyhow.
All the best.
"God has provided a means of escape from Hell."
However, your god is the GATEKEEPER!
He is the judge, jury and executioner!
Toulouse 798 if you have any children, please answer this question. What could your child ever do to make you hate it and pour lighter fluid on it and then through a match onto it and watch with a vengeful eye as it burned and screamed in agony as you say "I told you not to do that!"?
What history?
There is no evidence for you beloved jesus outside of the gospels which were written by anonymous men and who knows if they were "holy".
Maybe full of "holy shit"!
"God has provided a means of escape from Hell."
However, your god is the GATEKEEPER!
He is the judge, jury and executioner!
Toulouse 798 if you have any children, please answer this question. What could your child ever do to make you hate it and pour lighter fluid on it and then THROW a match onto it and watch with a vengeful eye as it burned and screamed in agony as you say "I told you not to do that!"?
The word is throw! Sorry!
He provides a way of escape? He is the one who created the hell and set up the system that would destine most of humanity to suffer in its inferno!
Your god is one sadistic bastard.
Well, that was obviously a convenient dodge for toulouse798, especially considering that I went on to answer his ill-founded question as a hypothetical anyway. I also explained to him exactly which types of questions that *was* an appropriate answer to, and why. Nonetheless, he wishes to ignore everything else I've said.
Recently someone here posted a link to A Salvation Story, which is the chronicle of a woman who gradually came to reject Christianity through a long and painful process of asking relentless questions. If I could remember who posted the link to it here, I'd give them credit for finding it. It's a remarkable story--it reads like a gripping novel. I highly recommend it.
I mention the story above because in it the woman is surrounded by (and tormented by) devout believers who seem to be incapable of accepting the fact that she had questions and doubts. They quite literally could not grasp what she was saying, and could not grant her the dignity of a respectful response. It's maddening to read. Well, I see posters such as toulouse798 above as being somewhat similar; in fact, a good many of the Christian visitors here seem to suffer from this. For some reason, they simply cannot even grasp what is being asked.
Take this as an example, from toulouse798:
"God has provided a means of escape from Hell. It really is that simple. What will your response be to Him when you face Him? that you didn't like His means of broadcasting? that you hadn't read the book? that He should have broadcast on a P.A. system?"
First, note that the questions he asks all PRESUPPOSE not only that there is god, but that this god has "provided" something, that he will be judging us, etc. In other words, he simply cannot acknowledge that those presuppositions are precisely what is at issue, despite numerous attempts on my part and others as well.
Now, here is a question that I'm quite certain that toulouse798 would not be able to even parse, and in any case, would completely dodge: "What will your response be to Allah when you face Him? that you didn't like His means of broadcasting? that you hadn't read the Koran?" Same type of presuppositions, but with a different entity in lieu of his version of god. I'm sure the question will strike him as absurd. But why?
toulouse798, feel free to jump back in and answer this, so I don't need to speculate. (Of course, I may as well be talking to a wall, right?)
To all the former devout believers out there, can anyone explain this to me? Why can most believers not even parse these questions? Is it simple cognitive dissonance, or is it something more? (I rejected Christianity are a very young age, so I cannot answer this from my own experience. And I get nothing but silence or non sequiturs from current believers.)
Thanks.
That's a funny image. Thanks for that. :-)
I understand what you're saying, but here's why I think there is something more going on. If it's the way you describe it, i.e. simply a matter of having faith, and not allowing one's self to doubt that faith, then why can't the believers simply acknowledge that? They could just say, "I have faith, and that's all there is to it. Don't expect me to give you a rational answer." In fact, that WOULD be something akin to a rational answer (and, indeed, some do reply in this way). But it seems the vast majority can't even face the question long enough to understand what is being asked. It's like my question is replaced with "blah blah blah blah". Do they have a real-time filter in their heads that intercepts anything that might pose a problem, and replaces it with "blah blah blah"? I'm truly baffled.