My Christian University experience

sent in by Mark

Well I grew up in an ultra fundamentalist home. Dad was a marine DI,
mom was a very involved Christian/homemaker. I was hit and abused as a
child. As I became a teen I was confused, attracted to other guys, and
told all gays were going to hell, my life was very sad. All through
high school I had sex with others at my school, and at church asked for
forgiveness. I was alone and very conflicted. I was close to suicide
often.

I applied for and was accepted to BIOLA (college) in 1977. I went to
the college, and was lodged in the all male (men and women were
separated) dorms. Living in such close proximity to so many other young (teen)
men, I became very sexual.

I had sex with MANY of the young men at the college. I changed
roommates. I asked a very effeminate and obviously gay older schoolmate to
become my new roommate. His name was Zane. He agreed. We moved into
another room in the freshman dorm. He was a junior. The first night in
the room, I confessed to him I was gay. I assumed he would be
thrilled. He became very homophobic, and ran to the RA. Telling him of my
confession.

I was called into the Dean of Men's office the next day. He was very
ignorant on the issue of homosexuality, and asked me how long I had
wanted to be a woman. He was an idiot. He then wanted names of others I
had been involved with on campus. I refused. I was kicked out of
school because I was gay.

I was very conflicted still, and went on a two year horror-show, back
and forth between self hate and "redemption." My parents had become a
part of a fundamentalist group called "Spatula." I was a group that was
supposed to help parents of gay kids. Some of us 'gay kids" attended
once in a while. We all screwed each other. Lots of sex, and guilt.

I also, at the forcing of my father, attended a group called Exodus
that was supposed to save us from our sexuality. At the time it was
headed buy a guy named Mike Bussey. Well Mike and I had many "sessions"
together. And sex. So much for saving me from my sin. Mike has since
come back to reality, and has renounced the lie that people can change
their sexuality.

I was also connected for a short while with a group called "Love in
Action" in San Francisco. I was still only 18, and kind of cute. Well
the "saved and converted" gay men were all over me. Trying to have sex
all the time. They were liars. There is no Jesus transformation. If
you are a queer, you are a queer.

My life in my late teens was hell. I turned tricks to survive. LA,
San Francisco. Lots of drugs drinking and sex. I was reacting to the
repression, and the guilt. I tried to commit suicide several times, and
was very unhappy. All because of the guilt I felt, and my fear of
being sent to hell for my sexuality.

Then I met a guy. We became a couple. He had not grown up in a
religious family. He was free of guilt; he was happy, gay and very handsome.
We fell in love. He taught me not to be afraid, and to love. He
taught me that you can be a fantastic human being, loving and good, without
any fear of a hateful god.

We have been together now for 21 years. We love each other very much,
and find a life without fear of god very fulfilling. I am productive,
and feel good about myself and my future. Life is good. My life is
good because god is dead for me. I am very lucky. Many young people are
so burdened by the belief in god, they never recover.

Good luck to all of you. Live happy lives unencumbered by the myth of
god. Live life to its fullest.


Oregon
USA
Joined: 5
Left: 18
Was: Christian and Missionary Alliance - BIOLA University
Now: Free Man
Converted because I grew up in the myth
De-converted because I am gay, and well I just outgrew the lie
email: onanite at gay dot com

55 comments:

euphgeek said...

Glad you made it out all right. Many people in your situation might have committed suicide. It just goes to show the damaging effect fundamentalist religion can have on a person. Welcome to the ex-Christian website. If I may ask, what are your beliefs now? Do you still believe in a god(s) or are you atheist or agnostic? Just wondering.

Anonymous said...

It is funny how many people send their kids to christian schools so they will be "safe." I am curious, what is your relationship like with your parents now?

Mark said...

Response to questions

Glad you made it out all right. Many people in your situation might have committed suicide. It just goes to show the damaging effect fundamentalist religion can have on a person. Welcome to the ex-Christian website. If I may ask, what are your beliefs now? Do you still believe in a god(s) or are you atheist or agnostic? Just wondering.

I do not believe in any god now. The idea of some sort of supreme being just seems silly to me, and there is just no sign of one. I am finally happy to be rid of that childish idea.

It is funny how many people send their kids to christian schools so they will be "safe." I am curious, what is your relationship like with your parents now?

After many years of not talking to my parents, we are now close. They have finally given up trying to "save" me, and accept the fact that I am my own man. They also accept and love my partner of 21 years. They see me as a succesful and moral person. This transition did not come easy and I value my relationship with my family now.

Anonymous said...

a loving God still seeks you. homsexual behavior is both suicidal and homocidal -- although it takes a while for those reality to take effect.

SpaceMonk said...

Although things got a bit dark for a bit there your story leaves me with a smile.
I love it when people find freedom.

freedy said...

welcome to this website,...I've been around for 46 years & I've yet to see one gay person "delievered".I was an ordained christian counsleor in the 80's and learned very quickly that the homosexuals I counseled could not change.I know now that you were born that way and no religious converson ,or treatment can change you.Glad you made thru the gobbledegoop gospel on to the other side, congradulations,
freedy p.s. I was on the page right before you check it out,peace

steve said...

"a loving God still seeks you. homsexual behavior is both suicidal and homocidal -- although it takes a while for those reality to take effect."

what a schizoid comment, "a loving god" and allusions to death. an invitation and a threat. another christian psycho.

by the way, i am not gay, but i have educated myself somewhat on that matter. have also tried (without success) to direct xtian friends to websites where the biology is discussed. ah, but that is science, and we all know xtianity and science don't mix.

Jim Lee said...

It's amazing just how free we can become once the guilt of religious institutions can be put behind us. I've never had homosexual feelings and have been married to the one woman for 42 years, but I feel for those who do. Christianity is always on about finding peace with God, when all they ever do with anybody is load them down with feeling of guilt. Here is an essay I put together a few years ago now.
Homophobia?
The prejudice and homophobia for the union of Gay marriages are firmly rooted within the Church. People are hard pressed to come up with one valid non -religious reason to oppose Gay marriages. Whether Gay marriages will be a part of the future remains to be seen, but the objection to such marriages are hard to nail down outside of religious bigotry.
As an example: If it is true that procreation is really the sole purpose of marriage as the church insist, then of course Gay marriages are not on. So it goes without saying if procreation is really the only reason for marriage, then the following people should never be allowed to marry.
This would include men who have had vasectomies, women who have had hysterectomies, post -menopausal women, men and women who are sterile, for whatever reason, whether from illness, injury or unknown causes. Also fertility tests should be carried out before a marriage license is issued. If one party is infertile then no marriage should be allowed. Marriages that don’t produce children after a certain period of time should be declared null and void.
These radical suggestions are merely to show the result of ‘ marriages must produce a baby ‘ hinted at by the church, For example condoms and other forms of birth control are forbidden. If such measures seem outlandish, then the objection to Gay marriages is outlandish also. If we agree that forcing people to have babies is out of the question, then what is wrong with Gays getting married? Consensual, adult, gay sexual activity hurts no one, so why all the fuss?
Church groups say that homosexual activity is "unnatural" The bible say’s it’s an "abomination," but who is going to define what is natural sexual practice. Many "normal" Heterosexual marriages include many supposed "unnatural" sexual activities, oral, anal, or otherwise. Ask any marriage councilor, or psychologist.
People’s bedrooms are their own business and are not the business of the government or the Church.
This bedroom issue serves to highlight the stupidity of the religious attitude with expressions of horror regarding homosexual activity. Conservative Christians think that homosexual activity can be overcome with Christian therapy (brain washing by doctrine) and prayer.
The centuries old Christian bible not only opposes homosexuality but it demands the death sentence. This is bigotry at its most evilness. This is the ultimate of intolerance, and it pretty much defines homophobia. If two Gays love each other and want to formalise their commitment with marriage, so what. The world can always use more love and commitment.
It’s about time we outgrew our bigoted, discriminatory, divisive way of religiosity that seems to dominate our lives.
In closing there are some Protestant denominational churches that have seen fit to ordain homosexual men into the ministry? Does this mean that some within the institution of the church choose not to take the bible literally? Is the bible valid in today’s society? How can a centuries old bible contain the 19th century word homosexual? Who replaced the word sodomy with homosexual? How can the 14th century word "marry" be part of an ancient biblical book of folklore and mythology?
Visit my web page for more essays on the fraudulent Christian movement

nirrti said...

You can give Christians all the logical explainations in the world and that wouldn't change their beliefs. You can't fight a faith that's based on illogical thought with logic, unfortunately and it's doubly sad that our supposed political leaders will, undoubtedly, run this country to the ground because of their refusal to follow their brains rather than tales from a book.

Oh, and Mark, I'm happy you made it out of all that insanity alive. So many who've injested that poison called a religion aren't so lucky. You and your partner of 21 years (which is much longer than many "Christian, hetero" marriages last) are proof that love is what's most important in life, not following some millenia old doctrine.

cdmon said...

Anonymous: "a loving God still seeks you. homsexual behavior is both suicidal and homocidal -- although it takes a while for those reality to take effect."

I will agree with the suicidal and homicidal part... with the caveat that it is only because there are so many religious nutcases out there are making life difficult for homosexuals.

And that reality IS happening right now!!

However a true loving gawd would never hate anyone he created to be homosexual.

Though I am hopelessly heterosexual, and also not by choice, but I was presdisposed to that. I have been happily married for 18 years.

The difference is that I don't have a problem with gay people. I have friends and family that are gay. And guess what... they are people too. They deserve the same kind of respect as anyone else.

They have all told me that it is a bitch to be gay, and they would have never chosen that as a path. SO NO, IT IS NOT A CHOICE!!!

That is why those xian sponsered gay deprogamming treatment centers have such a high rate of failure.
(Kinda makes me think of Clockwork Orange)

It has been primarily the religious right that has made it their objectives to deny rights to them. They are the first to bash them, and take upon themselves an agenda of denying them the same rights straight people are privy to.

Homophobes you are. But do you know any gay people?

So for you fundies who resort to an ancient book of rantings written by some guys who were drunk on the "new" wine, and high on amenita muscaria mushrooms...

Those of you who pass judgement on homosexuals; I ask you this... When was the last time you had a ham sandwich or wore a polyester blend? These too were considered abominations in the very same book.

So since when is it up to you to choose which abomination is better than the next one?

Or is it that you are hiding behind salvation and it's okay for you to do whatever sin you wish, but because your gawd apparently hates homosexuals it is your right to bash them?

What happened to "Just as I am?

So next time you wrap your lips around a BLT sandwich, remember you too are commiting an abomination...

Leonard said...

Amazing, Mark.
Your story is inspiring and shocking all at once.

As opposed to the words of the anonymous god-botherer, who in no more than two sentences manages to make a worse mockery of his own beliefs than I could in two small-written pages. No wonder he´s anonymous. Or she.

Dave8 said...

Ah, the bigotry of the religious... such feeble minds, just wanting to be told what to do... The Catholic religion is attempting to cover its totally "ignorant" stance on their pedophile priest population, by attacking what they believe to be the "deviant" underlying evil in their ranks - homosexuals... Well, what does one expect, they conducted witch trials not so many years ago, why stop there... on a lighter note, here's some of their hypocrisy...

Catholicism over the years:

"Priests (and therefore Popes) were not required to be celibate until the eleventh century, and some took full advantage. John XII-a bisexual pope who held orgies in the papal palace. Benedict IX-a homosexual pope who also enjoyed hosting orgies. Alexander VI-a bisexual pope who was not going to let his fun be spoiled just because he became pope after celibacy became mandatory. He fathered at least 8 children and had many male lovers. Julius III-a homosexual pope who respected his vow of celibacy, but had a male lover before taking that vow. Paul II-Possible transsexual pope? His tendency to wear lavish and feminine clothing earned him the nickname "Our Lady of Pity."

"The Catholic church knowingly canonized gay saints. Paired saints Serge and Bacchus, and saints Polyeuct and Nearchos were canonized and the church wrote of their love for each other as a part of their holiness. Serge and Bacchus were Roman soldiers who refused to sacrifice to the idols of the Emperor and sentenced to death. Bacchus was executed first, Serge was tortured in an attempt to get him to worship the idols. Serge had visions of Bacchus, in which he would comfort him and urge him not to give in so that they might be together for eternity. Finally Serge was executed, and the couple was canonized as martyrs. Polyeuct and Nearchos were similar, they were also Roman soldiers, martyred because of their Christian faith, and in love with each other. Metaphrastes described them as one soul in two bodies, joined by boundless love. Polyeuct converted to Christianity because Nearchos was going to be executed for being Christian. Polyeuct wanted to be executed with him so that their souls would be united forever in the kingdom of heaven."
http://community-2.webtv.net/RainbowFabric/ChurchandGLBThistory/

"The ceiling of their holy Sistine Chapel was the canvas for one of the greatest greatest works of art of all time. The artist? One of the most famous homosexuals of all time - Michelangelo. (Not to mention that the public must pay a considerable sum of money to the Catholic Church to view that artwork.)"
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve5/1091church.html

Well, I suppose the Catholic Church and its voting members will figure it all out, I am sure they were just missing some formal doctrine that they voted upon... they have been voting for a while now on matters of state, just like they did when they voted whether Jesus was a God or not, back at the First Council of Nicaea 325CE... even then, there wasn't a majority vote, but alas, we get to receive the bounty of their venom in society, because of a few idiots in a voting booth, trying to call shots according to their "desires"...

"A Vatican document of 1961 bars persons with homosexual orientation from ordination and religious vows. However, this document appears to have been almost completely ignored. 2"
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm

Well, hypocrisy rolls on, the Vatican will market its stance on international TV, etc., but in the end, it will be their own hypocrisy that tells the real story... kind of like Paul the lying theif murderer, being the divine keystone to unite Jewish theology with Pauline Christianity... People have just got to be totally isolated from information, in order to "miss" the hypocrisy, so prevalent withint religious circles...

Well, to be fair, all religions who claim to have an "absolute" truth, are hypocritical... and the, uh, we are striving for perfection is about retarded also, it begs the question... "what's perfect", as if they "know" perfection, from an imperfect perspective... religion hasn't had an answer for the individual searching for truth since the beginning of recorded thought... but they are more than willing to "tell" people what to do, without any evidence, and a terrible case history of giving good advice...

Dave8 said...

Mark, thanks for your testimony... I can relate to being locked into a four year christian university, i.e., Chareleston Southern University, SC... I was an RA and RD for a few years, and was the one called to the sexual crime scene on more than one occassion ;-)

I found it amusing, that they separated women from men in different buildings, and the tighter they made the restrictions the more tension and conflict arose... Politically, looking back, the rules were nothing more than an attempt to market a university to parents to sell them the dream that their sons or daughters wouldn't be able to engage in sexual activities... it also covered them from "liability" to a great degree, because the University could stand back, and state they had done everything possible to curb such activity...

Just a bunch of legal lip service, and duped parents, paying $12K a year for "a clean education"... There were more homophobes in that school than anywhere I had ever been...

I know what its like to live in a repressive environment, I, like your dad, was also a Marine for a number of years... not a lot of room to "think" big picture, especially when a fleeting thought, could cause the death of your buddies... nothing like living with ones' mind totally disengaged from society, and the realization that there are things in life that don't have "operating manuals"...

When I finally moved on to college from there, I thought I'd find intellectual freedom at the university level, but alas, like you at a bible college, I just found more "training" than "education"... still, no big picture, and professors teaching how students should "operate", not necessarily how to "think"... such is bible school... Well, its good to know, that you are okay, and living a balanced life, without fear... and, again, I enjoyed your testimony, take care...

Kevin C. said...

Mark, thank you for sharing your story; so many testimonials on this site are inspiring for the individual's awakening to reality, but to me, yours is even more special.

I was raised a Roman Catholic. My parents did not force religion upon me and I was never exposed to the fundie horror so many others at this site have been--they actually encouraged me to think for myself, to be my own person, and for that I am grateful. Nonetheless, I was raised with the beliefs that certain things are just wrong, that certain things in society are just plain taboo. It is thus that I did not begin to develop as a sexual being until the summer after I graduated from high school...

Meanwhile, ever since I was perhaps 13 or 14 years old, I had started to develop my own ideas about heaven and hell and other religious concepts that made no sense to me. Piece by piece, without even realizing what I was doing, I was deconstructing everything I was taught as a young child. By the time I was a high school senior, I was greatly opposed to organized religion and only just barely did I still believe that Jesus was the "son of god." That summer, I realized that I no longer believed in Christianity at all, although I still held to the concept of some abstract concept of "god" that more resembled the Far Eastern concept of a "universal soul." Then, in the fall semester of my sophomore year at college, I realized that I no longer believed in any god or religion at all. I'm a proud atheist to this day, and it's always wonderful and refreshing to hear stories such as yours, stories of people who also awoke from the deception of religion to find the truths of the world and of a life away from the herd.

Part of my turn away from religion had to do with politics. I'm loathe to judge anyone or be anything but a friend to strangers I meet, and the exact opposite mentality is what I found in Christianity. This included homosexuals. Based on what I had learned as a child, I had long held an attitude that I was cool with LGBT and would respect them as long as they respected me.

My perspective began to change after high school with the realization that sex was more than just something you see on TV and in the movies. My first semester at college, my good friend Sarah took a keen interest in me. I tried, but I just didn't feel the same way about her, and more importantly, I couldn't figure out why it didn't feel right to be with her. At the same time, I found myself attracted to male friends, something I had never considered before. Later, my best friend, who I thought was straight as an arrow, admitted to me that he was gay, and this was one of the major catalysts for heavy introspection over holiday break and my eventual realization that I'm gay, too.

Nothing feels so great as honesty and the search for truth. The first night that I sat down with two of my best friends and told them I'm gay is still the best night of my life; the feeling was unimaginable and I'll never forget it. In second place is the day that I looked in the mirror and realized there's no such thing as heaven or hell, angels or demons, God or Satan; I have never felt so free as when I cast aside the chains of religion.

I must only imagine that you feel the same way about your experiences. You gain such a greater perspective on life when you are honest with yourself and others, when you start searching for the truth and find it, when you are at last free from everything that repressed you as a youth. Even after my own epiphanies, my inner child still does a dance of celebration when I hear of another brother or sister who has come out, or who has relieved themselves of the hateful burden of religion.

By sharing your story, Mark, you have truly made my night.

Thank you once again for sharing. Thank you for your honesty.

But most of all, thank you for refusing to hide any longer and for abandoning the lie.

Enjoy the rest of your life, I bet it's going to be great.

Best wishes for you and your partner (:

-Kevin-

Anonymous said...

What hell you have gone through! I'm glad that you found someone nice and had a happy ending. You deserve it!

Anonymous said...

I don't mean to be rude.
But say the world began and insted of there being Adam and Eve there was Adam and Steve and they were Gay. Where would the world be today? No where, because they wouldn't have produced any offspring.

The primary function of the sex organs are not for pleasure, but for reproduction.

I've suffered with depression and guilt from Sin and i'll tell you many Christians do live in Sin. But there is a God. To say I don't believe there's a God doesn't prove anything. The theory of evolution cannot be proved an never will.
It takes faith to believe in God and accept Jesus. I can't convince you. But the truth is we will eventually die and all we have to do is accept Jesus to be saved.

Look at http://www.carm.org/testimonies/rcurran.htm

Dave8 said...

Anonymous: "I don't mean to be rude. But say the world began and insted of there being Adam and Eve there was Adam and Steve and they were Gay. Where would the world be today?"

Sinless...

Anonymous: "No where, because they wouldn't have produced any offspring."

End of Story... Perhaps, the human race would have ended in love, but... thanks to adam and eve, and your god, we get to experience the blissful butchery brought to us by the owners and operators of the "my god is better than your god" wars... By the way, go reread your bible, sexual desire is what theoretically created "original sin"... makes one wonder, if eve would have never been seduced by "the snake" in the garden, would our species have ever survived, I mean, it was the eating of the apple that gave her carnal knowledge...

Anonymous: "The primary function of the sex organs are not for pleasure, but for reproduction."

Pleasure and reproduction work together as a tag team... You believe that we are all here to continually repopulate the earth, so you believe reproduction is primary... who's to say, pleasure wasn't primary, and reproduction became the by-product of the act... I remember pleasure much earlier in life, than thinking about having children...

Anonymous: "I've suffered with depression and guilt from Sin and i'll tell you many Christians do live in Sin."

Probably due to the fact, that they believe pleasure is sinful, and should be repressed at all cost, no matter how natural it is...

Anonymous: "But there is a God."

Define... and feel free to use the words, love/care, and pleasure/bliss/peace...

Anonymous: "To say I don't believe there's a God doesn't prove anything."

It makes it true for the person making the statement... To make it Universally 'not true', you'd better offer up some evidence...

Anonymous: "The theory of evolution cannot be proved an never will."

Theory: "A well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses";
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Theory is well-substantiated, its slightly different than "fact"...

Fact: "A concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The "theory" of evolution, is built upon by "many" sub-facts, the "system" of evolution is still a theory however, as not "all" of the sub-facts have been gathered to link everything together without "any" gaps... Still, it is a "viable" and "solid" theory, based on factual "evidence"...

Anonymous: "It takes faith to believe in God and accept Jesus. I can't convince you. But the truth is we will eventually die and all we have to do is accept Jesus to be saved."

So, the magic formula for overcoming "death" is to accept Jesus... In "death" one receives a reward... Therefore, Death is more Valuable than Life... Well, what's keeping you, if you are so bent on receiving your reward, knock yourself out... Jesus did, he facilitated his own euthanasia, why not become more like Jesus...


If we are here to live a natural life, what does that mean, per se... bonding seems to be part of the equation, fertilization is about bonding, but, what triggers this bonding... sensual experience? Are the senses, limited to taste, smell, sight, touch, sound or, could a neurologist suggest that "mind" is a central sense, which can be stimulated as well... Oh, deep thoughts, oh, wait, I just got stimulated... wonder how that happened, none of the other senses were involved, and I had a thought...

If bonding is based on sensual attraction, then its apparent that we are attracted by more than just the basic visual, and feeling senses... And, its apparently obvious that you don't delve into biology very often, here's a free lesson...

***********************************

They're in love. They're gay.

They're penguins... And they're not alone.

By Cristina Cardoze

Wendell and Cass, two penguins at the New York Aquarium in Coney Island, Brooklyn, live in a soap opera world of seduction and intrigue. Among the 22 male and 10 female African black-footed penguins in the aquarium's exhibit, tales of love, lust and betrayal are the norm. These birds mate for life. But given the disproportionate male-female ratio at the aquarium, some of the females flirt profusely and dump their partners for single males with better nests.
Wendell and Cass, however, take no part in these cunning schemes. They have been completely devoted to each other for the last eight years. In fact, neither one of them has ever been with anyone else, says their keeper, Stephanie Mitchell.
But the partnership of Wendell and Cass adds drama in another way. They're both male. That is to say, they're gay penguins.
This is not unusual. "There are a lot of animals that have same-sex relations, it's just that people don't know about it," Mitchell said. "I mean, Joe Schmoe on the street is not someone who's read all sorts of biology books." One particular book is helpful in this case. Bruce Bagemihl's "Biological Exuberance," published in 1999, documents homosexual behavior in more than 450 animal species. The list includes grizzly bears, gorillas, flamingos, owls and even several species of salmon. . .

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-06-10/591.asp

***********************************

Anonymous, if animals don't "think" cognitively, and only act according to "gods'" natural will... then its obviously "gods will" that some animals be gay... and of course, if that were the case, it just seems natural that your god, is sending a message to us that its okay to be gay... I mean, what other purpose would your god have for making animals gay? Maybe your god didn't create the animals on this earth... maybe god did, and the animals "evolved", through "evolution"... take your pick there Anonymous, will be glad to hear from you... or not...

Anonymous said...

" I don't mean to be rude.
But say the world began and insted of there being Adam and Eve there was Adam and Steve and they were Gay. Where would the world be today? No where, because they wouldn't have produced any offspring.
"


You are not serious are you? We now have close to 7 billion people on earth, do we really need to keep the population boom going? Gays help you pay for all your offspring by paying their taxes. You should fall down on your knees and thank them.

"The primary function of the sex organs are not for pleasure, but for reproduction."

So I am sure you never have sex because it "feels" good. What a laugh. I will bet you money you whack off all the time, you repressed moron. I'd like to know how many times you have had sex compared to the number of childen you have burdened the world with. Hopefully you are not spreading your obviously low IQ genes all over the place.

oatpaste said...

Mark,

I especially appreciate your testimony.

If not for a good friend who is a lesbian I never would have found my way out of the fundamentalist box that had been erected around me for 20 some years. She, without trying, challenged my beliefs. Beliefs that had amazingly remained unexamined my whole life.

Now that I’ve lost my religion, I find that my love and respect of all people at it’s pinnacle. An awe of human life has replaced the fear of a vengeful creator.

Funny - I was always taught that only Christians could experience true love.

Anonymous said...

lets see .... if sex is JUST for procreation then:

Ya get only plain vanilla sex. no oral, anal or forplay for you buddy.

After your little "woman' goes throgh menopause, NO MORE SEX.

Hysterectomy? NO MORE SEX.

After you and your wife have decided "no more children" then NO MORE SEX!.

IF you are sterile ... NO SEX for you!

Of couse you cannot use any sort of birth control and have sex.

Pregnant mom? NO sex for nine months buddy. BECAUSE having sex would just be for fun.

My guess is the poster who said "The primary function of the sex organs are not for pleasure, but for reproduction." was a fridged woman who hates sex with her husband. What do you all think?

Dano said...

It is a proven fact that sex has many health benefits.

"A decade later, researchers found that the death rate from all causes for the least sexually active men was twice as high as that of the most active. The death rate in the intermediate group was 1.6 times greater than for the active group. A similar pattern of longevity and frequency of orgasm was found for all causes of death, coronary heart disease, and other causes."

http://www.flp-aloevera.co.uk/Sex%20_and%20_your%20_health.htm

Dano said...

Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't!.
-- George Bernard Shaw, (attributed: source unknown)

The early Christian rules of life were not made to last, because the early Christians did not believe that the world itself was going to last.
-- George Bernard Shaw: Hotchkiss, in Getting Married

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/qframe.htm

SpaceMonk said...

"I don't mean to be rude.
But say the world began and insted of there being Adam and Eve there was Adam and Steve and they were Gay."

Psst. There was no such people as Adam and Eve...

But, if Adam and Steve would've been sinning then where does that leave Adam and Eve?
There had to be incest to populate the world!
Either Adam with his daughter, Eve with her son, or a son and daughter together...
Incest is now a "sin", but it must not have been at one point.
Homosexuality wouldn't have been a "sin" until someone decided it was.

"Where would the world be today? No where, because they wouldn't have produced any offspring."

Theoretically it would still be here, but just with no humans to rape and pollute it.

"The primary function of the sex organs are not for pleasure, but for reproduction."

With our unique intelligence we humans are capable of finding more than one use for things.
Switching to secondary function...
Oh yeah!

1 Corinthians 10
"Everything is permissible" – but not everything is constructive.
...Why should my freedom be judged by anothers conscience?"

"I've suffered with depression and guilt from Sin..."

You've been victimised by those who make up rules and maintain them with fear.

There is nothing to fear in an afterlife because there is no such place as hell. Hell is a merciless place that contradicts the supposed love that bible-god has.
Surely his all-knowing and all-powerfullness should have given him the ability to create an alternate system where nobody ends up in eternal hell?
So that even his 'only-son' wouldn't have to die?

How about Reincarnation, where we go through as many lives as we need to perfect ourselves?
Hey, look! I, a mere mortal, just came up with a better system than the one supposedly thought up by an omniscient/omnipotent perfect being!

Maybe bible-god isn't as great as you think?

Dave8 said...

Biology 101, for the repressed religious...

"The what spot?

Originally known as the Grafenberg Spot, the G-Spot was named after the gynaecologist Ernst Gräfenberg, who first described it in 1944.

Practitioners of tantric sex have been talking about this 'sacred spot' for over 1,000 years.

What is it?
For many women, it's a highly sensitive, highly erotic area that provides hours of pleasure. For others it's a knobbly bit that, when touched too much, creates an overwhelming sensation of needing a wee. Some women can't feel any sensation at all while others don't seem to have one at all.

There are a number of different theories about what the G-spot or area actually is. One view is that it is an area of prostatic tissue similar to the male prostate. The absence of the Y chromosome in the developing female fetus deposits the cells in a similar location and voila - the G-spot. Complete with a similar type of sensitivity to the male prostate."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/sex_and_sexual_health/enjsex_gspot.shtml

"The prostate is located directly beneath the bladder and in front of the rectum."
http://www.urologychannel.com/prostate/index.shtml

Anatomical Chart:
http://www.urologychannel.com/prostate/index.shtml


Now, any religious person, if the G-Spot is the arousal zone, to perpetuate sexual excitement and activity... can you please provide a strategy on how best to "reach" the Male G-Spot, the prostrate, thanks...

cdmon said...

Anonymous said: "I don't mean to be rude."

Nice way to raise the red flags...

Anonymous said: "But say the world began and insted of there being Adam and Eve there was Adam and Steve and they were Gay. Where would the world be today? No where, because they wouldn't have produced any offspring."

Less homophobes. No really, human kind would have adapted ways to reproduce.

Anonymous said: "The primary function of the sex organs are not for pleasure, but for reproduction."

What were you born under a rock? If your gawd really did create human kind, then why do you suppose he made sex pleasurable? So pleasurable he made it that it has become people favorite pass time. The divine way to create life has a pleasurable side... Enjoy it!!

Let me ask you this, Why do you suppose your gawd is so overly concerned with the sex people are having?

Sounds to me like a perverted voyeuristic compulsion... As I have read numerous times in the OT how gawd "strips people naked."

Hosea 2:3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born...

Why is he so intrigued by sexual organs? Why are xians so interested in the sexuality of others, and feel the need to dictate who can have sex with whom, and what flavor of sex people should be allowed to enjoy?

You sound to me like a sexually repressed little wanker... or a frigid little bink.

anonymous said: I've suffered with depression and guilt from Sin and i'll tell you many Christians do live in Sin.

I suggest putting all that repression and guilt aside and go get laid. You will feel sooo much better. Small wonder you are so depressed...

Don't you see that it is so absurd to think that from the time you were born you were guilty of sin.... from Adam and Eve? That is just so supremely unjust isn't it? You call THAT freedom?

Then to give your life over to a religion that makes sex taboo in pretty much all cases except in marriage... Then only half of the marriages ever last...

Xians live in sin.... Then it really must be asked, Where is this so-called life changing power of gawd if xians still live in sin?

Seems obvious to me that when he said "It is finished" that it really wasn't finished was it?

Whence cometh salvation?

So sexually repressed xianity has caused some individuals to become predators... including clergy...

Xian sexual repression is unhealthy, and what is even more unhealthy is their homophobia.

All that Adam and Steve BS is getting old. Why can't you just see it for what it is? A method to control you. Xianity makes you ignore and fight with yourself to try to contain sexual urges that are perfectly normal, whether these urges be straight or homosexual.

anonymous said: "But there is a God. To say I don't believe there's a God doesn't prove anything. The theory of evolution cannot be proved an never will."

To say "but there is a gawd" does not prove anything either. ID is not even a theory and certainly cannot be proven and never will... At least evolution can be tested scientifically... ID cannot even be tested. It is based on pretend.

anonymous said: "It takes faith to believe in God and accept Jesus. I can't convince you. But the truth is we will eventually die and all we have to do is accept Jesus to be saved."

It takes faith (pretend) to believe.... Evolution doesn't require anyone to pretend that something exists that cannot be proven.

Yes we will all eventually die...
But perhaps it would be better to live life to the fullest, enjoy sex, put aside the depression for having sexual urges... and live set free...

It doesn't sound the least bit like the jeez has set you free... You are in bondage. How can you be saved if you are in bondage?

I hope you do get set free of the xian mind virus.

I went through the same thing in my late teens and early 20's. Feeling guilty for having natural urges. It drove me crazy. Finally when I realized xianity was the greatest bs story ever told, I felt freer than I ever have. Didn't have to put on a facade of righteousness in front of the church anymore. But best of all. I didn't have to feel guilty about having sex or even the urges. No one to answer to except myself.

So if living life for the scant possibilty of an eternity spent sitting across the table from Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson still sounds inviting... knock yourself out, but I'm enjoying life guilt free... can you say that of yourself?

cheers

ps. practice safe sex, and please don't breed anymore repressed fundies!!

Dave8 said...

anonymous said: "But there is a God. To say I don't believe there's a God doesn't prove anything. The theory of evolution cannot be proved an never will."

Forgot to put the question out to the fundies... If evolution doesn't exist, then of course, your god, deliberately nailed the male G-Spot to the "internal" and front part of the "rectum", with only "one" way physical access... If god didn't create this "pleasure" zone, then evolution did, if god "did" create this pleasure zone, then "what for?" and, "why there?" Good luck with the homework project fundies...

south2003 said...

Anonymous said: "don't mean to be rude.
But say the world began and insted of there being Adam and Eve there was Adam and Steve and they were Gay. Where would the world be today? No where, because they wouldn't have produced any offspring."

When will these religious bigots come up with anything original: Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve…yada, yada. Anonymous, if there were nothing but gays on this planet, do you realize that you would not be here clapping your trap or waging your tail.

Well lets say god did make such creatures, did this god made them (Adam and Eve) with butt holes and why? Could it be because of “sin” why they had one…*wink* hummmm could it had been for pleasure and/or to pass crap that the body no longer needs. Let me inform you on a few things Anonymous:

1) Heterosexuals and homosexuals do share the same sex acts; and
2) They enjoy them.

The advantages of sex
It produces genetically valuable offspring that can adapt to its environment
It can make you burn up to a 1000 calories (3-5 days a week will get you in shape)
It’s a stress buster
It’s pleasurable

Disadvantages
It's a pain in the ass find a good mate

Obviously, Anonymous you have no clue what evolution is. It’s just as bad as you asking: Who is George Washington?

Here are two more simple questions to answer

1) Wisdom teeth - why do we have them?
2) Appendix - can it be taken out without the oss of life and why is it there?

Anonymous said...

At the end of the day all Homosexuals are going to HELL
but I wouldnt worry theres no such thing!

madamehel said...

To Anonymous

You stated yesterday that at the end of the day that all homosexuals were going to HELL. Well, it is the next day and I know of several homosexuals that didn't go to HELL last night at midnight. Please recalculate and get back with us as to the correct date. Thanks.

south2003 said...

Anonymous,

You are in your own hell, if you think that you are somewhat above anyone - chimp

Why don't you fundies shut your trouts and just go ahead and carry out the mandates of your bible...chicken shits!

By the way, do you belong to http://www.godhatefags.com?

Anonymous said...

It was a joke, personally I do not believe in a HELL,it was just a concept taken from the zoroastrian religion.

so how can someone go to hell if it doesnt exist...We can all go to HELL for all I care but where would that be.

Anonymous said...

Hey, remember to have sex with Christians... they love it! All the young guys are willing and able!

JTFINALLYFREE said...

Hey Onanite, My heart goes out to you man. I enjoyed your testimony and I just wanted you to know that your testimony actually inspired me to write mine. I really enjoyed your testimony and thought it was very insightful. I am just one of many on this website who has enjoyed your posts and all of your insights. Personally I do believe there is more out there for us. I'm just convinced its not this madness we call christianity. May a real and true peace always be with you. Dave said it best when he said you will always be apart of us.
Thank you.

Anonymous said...

I am glad that you are happy. But I should say that you were never a Christian and neither were your parents. A parent who hits their kid is not a true Christian. As for you, belief in God does not make you a Christian. As a Christian, you commit to God. So far as I can see, you always believed but never commited. You are no ex-christian. Just and ex-theist. Don't know if that realization makes you happy or not. But I wish you luck.

Passerby said...

To anonymous,
His parents were "true Christians" according to Jesus. His parents wanted to be Jesus' disciple, thus they probably "hated" him. I think hitting children would be considered an act of hate?

Luke 14:26; "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Your god is a piece of shit

Ken said...

Wow. Amazing how much hate and bigotry many ex-religious folks spew, while from the other side of their mouths, they complain of the same from the religious folks. Just a bit hypocritical, don't you think? But wait - I guess only Christians can be hypocritical. Everyone else gets a pass, right?

But, I can understand the venom. The truth is, that there are the "religious", and there are those that have a real and personal relationship with God. The latter are the ones that will never become "ex-Christians". Once you know someone personally, you can't (and wouldn't) decide that they don't exist. Unfortunately, the church is rife with the religious, while the true Christ followers are harder to find. If you were to meet someone who truly follows Christ because they KNOW him, you may be able to get past your intolerance of people of faith. Jesus taught love and tolerance. He walked with sinners, as all of us are, and gave us a way home. REAL Christians understand that they are no better and no more righteous than anyone else, and that it is grace alone that redeems us. When that happens, the true Christ-follower repents - turns away from his former ways - and begins the transformation into a person that becomes more like the REAL Christ.

Regarding homosexuality, God views ANY sexual relations that are outside of his plan for us as sinful, and that includes heterosexual adultery. So, heterosexual sinners have no right to cast stones at homosexuals. Incidentally, "Christians" who claim that sex is for procreation only, are simply "religious" in my estimation. They do not understand that God purposefully created male and female to enjoy each other physically. God DESIRES that we be happy. His commands are not repression, but freedom. They are given in order to guide us toward happiness, in the same way as a parent's commands to their children.

You can certainly choose to reject God, because he didn't create robots. He made us as rational independent beings - in other words, we were made in His image. But, while it is your right to take that wide and well-traveled path instead of the straight and narrow one, you should practice what you preach, and be tolerant of people of faith. And in the mean time, maybe it would be refreshing for you to seek out someone who will provide you with a true reflection of who Christ is, rather than a distorted image that is filtered through some human construct. If you can't find someone like that, then you can learn who he is on your own. Simply read the Gospels for yourself, instead of hearing only what religion tells you.

Anonymous said...

Ken the word hate has not been used by ex-christains on this post. So I guess that makes you a total liar! You Redneck Jerk Liar!

Dano said...

KEN.
If you never read anything else on this site, please go to:

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/04/is-god-author-of-evil.html

, and read what Melissa wrote at: 4/23/2006 2:01 AM EST  

I promise you that if you do read it carefully and make every effort to understand it, you will have a truly enlightening experience!

Rest assured that I don't have any animosity towards you. With about 4 billion people on this planet believing in some kind of mysticism, I don't have the time or inclination to try to save all of them. I just make a stab at witnessing to one every now and then.

Dan (To whom common sense seems to be what we all should strive for)

Heathen Sister said...

Ken, Ken, Ken:

You are sooooo boring., boring, boring....

Will a fundy ever develop any originality of thought and arguement??? Ooopss... of course not, they are all programmed to be the same!!! How silly of me.

Same ol', same ol', Ken. Us x-xians were never xians to begin with and we were all wronged by folks who weren't really xians, either. If we were TRUE xians we'd still be xians and if we knew TRUE xians we wouldn't feel this way.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to know someone who never existed!!!! Jesus didn't teach anything---he didn't exist!!!

These are not "feelings" these are facts. There is a difference between not believing in something and KNOWING it doesn't exist.

But since you so eloquently defined god's expectation for us regarding sex, you must obviously be a TRUE xian. Your understanding is soooo profound.

By the way, if you had bothered to read any of the testimonies on this site, you would know that ALL of us have read the great and wholly buy bull and have researched xianity and other religions and that has a LOT to do with our x-factor.

The buy bull was created by men, translated by men, and interpreted by men to control men. Religions were created by men to control men using the buy bull as justification and "proof" for the religion. NONE of it is real or valid.

And xians who are hypocrites are a lot worse than an average non-believer, because non-believers don't go around prending to be anything except what they are. Xians go around advertising who they are and telling everyone else how they should behave, so if an xian doesn't follow his own preachings and own beliefs(think baby raper and theif pastors)that's a heck of alot worse.

boomSLANG said...

Ken: "Incidentally, "Christians" who claim that sex is for procreation only, are simply "religious" in my estimation."

In your "estimation"? Are you serious? Please---- your entire post is only YOUR "estimation". Why?... because your religion is totally subjective and is open to one's OWN interpretation, hence, the bazillion different denominations of Christianity. But let me guess...."Ken" has the "one TRUE" interpretaion, right? How about mental masterbation?...is that a "sin", Ken?

Ken: "His commands are not repression, but freedom".

"commands"/"freedom"

square/circle

black/white

Even a 6th grader can see the contradictions. Evolve, Ken...grow up and evolve.

Bentley said...

Ken you sound like a Jerry Falwell wannabe!

There's this BIG Fat preacher near here that get on the radio and Yells! God Hates Fags!!! God Hates Homosexuals!!!

So I wrote him a letter and I said; Would it ever occur to you that the Almighty God you so know so well, that he would ALLOW Siamese Twins to be jointed at the head, or side or feet together and this wonderful God allows people with down syndrome (Plagued by demons by the way) people to be born blind, people born with no limbs, people born mentally ill.

Why could not someone be born with a male body and a mind with an atraction of the same sex?

Why could not a female with a female body be born with an attraction of the same sex?

Now here's the Kicker!

The people that wrote the Bible had no medical knowledge and anyone that did not act or believe as they did, like Bro.KEN, is quick to condemn people to Hell.

And I think there should be a place or eternal torment for all people like KEN and anyone who takes over and condemns people to Hell, just because they are Totally Operating on TOTAL IGNORANCE!

Ken you and christians just like you may be the reason they invented HELL, to put people just like you in, and maybe some day they will play back a Tape of you and all you selfrighteous Christians spouting your HOLIER THAN THOU BULLSHIT, and take a bulldozer and push all you Christians STRAIGHT INTO HELL!!!!

After all, the Christians invented the idea of Hell, I'm sure it will be full with mostly self-claimed, selfrighteous judgemental Christians, with KEN right in the middle..ha ha ha ha!!!!

Dave8 said...

Ken: "The truth is, that there are the "religious", and there are those that have a real and personal relationship with God."

Actually, I see the fundamentally religious as being less imaginative than those who claim they have a real relatinoship with a "god" of their choice.

Let me try, hey, I now have a relationship with my imagination, wow, you're right, that was easy, let me give my imaginative object a name, "Srondel", the most supreme god on high. He says, that your god is petty and insignificant, and to not worry about him. Please, prove to me that my god (or imagination) doesn't exist, thanks.

Ken said...

Hi everyone. You all make some interesting comments, but please take a look back over them again. Can you spot a trend? It makes me wonder how anyone so angry can claim to be happy, as most here do.

I don't want to argue with everyone, because I know how useless that would be. But, let me answer this to Heathen Sister:

Jesus's existence is not questioned by any scholar. His life is well established history. Even the most learned athiests will concede that fact.

And to dave8:

I would not even try to prove you wrong. Everyone is free to choose his or her own god, and if you choose him/her/it to be your own imagination, that is fine. A bit strange, but okay by me.

The fact is that we all have a god. We all have some thing or idea or construct or person that we live for, whether consciously or not. I choose to cast my lot with the creator of life. If you would rather believe that we became conscious, reasoning wonders of biology by accident, that's ok. Of course, belief does not change truth, or create an alternate reality. Anyway, to regurgitate a well-worn argument; if you are right, we all rot in our graves when we die, never knowing what hit us. If I am right, some of us will be in for a big disappointment on that day. Again, that is your choice.

I'll wrap with this. Yes, I DO think that I have the ONE truth. That is my belief. So, when someone like me tells someone like you about it, we are not "telling everyone how to live". We have much better things to do than to try to run other peoples lives. However, given my belief, I would be doing wrong NOT to tell someone if I see them heading for a cliff with a blindfold on. Take it or leave it, but that is the motivation.

Let me ask you this. Can you respect me as a person, no matter how silly you may think my beliefs are? I guess I don't really expect it. After all, this is a confirmation of Christ's own words when he said that his followers would be despised for his sake.

Side note to Ben: No, God does NOT hate people who are homosexual. He loves them with an amazing love.

Dave8 said...

Ken: "Let me ask you this. Can you respect me as a person, no matter how silly you may think my beliefs are? I guess I don't really expect it. After all, this is a confirmation of Christ's own words when he said that his followers would be despised for his sake."

First of all, I don't believe we all have a "god" per your use of the word "god". What you describe, or associate to a god for me is in no manner a god. When you talk to me of "your" god, you in no way provide "meaning" to me, in the form of some feeling, experience, etc., that you have had. Thus, to each their own, eith or without a god concept.

Now, for me, without the "god" concept. I'll explain what you were attempting to establish, or so it appeared. Sorry for the analogy, I am tired, so, you get something I don't have to think about... The universe, can be seen as an encrypted message, and as we develop a decryption key in our lives. A decryption key, that allows us to unravel some of the meaning of life, so that we can live a more productive and predictable life.

Your decryption key, is called "god". For those things you don't have answers for, you use the god key to unscramble the cipher, unfortunately, you still have no meaning derived after using your key. However, you find great comfort in convincing yourself your key still has value, and may still be usable after you die. However, that begs the question, why do you need "god", then, if you aren't able to use your "god" key, to decrypt or find predictable and meaningful information in this life.

I use my own key, its more logically founded, and is something that has produced meaningful results and has provided predictability in my life. If I do "A", then "B", is the result, that has use and meaning in my life. Also, I have as much knowledge of the afterlife, as you do, so I am not wasting my time, using the wrong decryption key and precious hours of my life trying to convince myself that the "god" key has value in this life.

I would not begrudge you the opportunity to continue to use a decryption key, that is built, so that you can in fact, never find meaning or predictability, because they decryption key itself, is per christian definition, said to exist in a transcendent reality. Yes, "your" key, is removed from this reality, and can never be applied to anything in this natural reality. Do I find that troubling?

If you were ever told, that "god" is the key to unlock all the questions in your life, you were lied to. Its not the belief I have a problem with, its the "lying" to people, that "god" is in fact the key that will allow someone to make sense out of this universe. You can't use, what doesn't exist, or can't be proven to exist. You suggested that Jesus is proven throughout history... Uh, no... provide one shred of documentation in the era Jesus would have lived... Nadda...

Bottom line, there is zero statues of him, there is zero archeological evidence of him, there are writings that started popping up hundreds of years later, after the Roman Empire embarked on the journey to rid them of the rabbinical Jews. Not only, do we not have anyone writing of Jesus in the era he was supposed to have lived, if he did live, "he" didn't produce "one" shred of documentation himself. Wasn't he here to "send a message"?

Ken, again, you can "believe" whatever you want, but a "belief" does not provide "predictability" in ones' life, and the more predictable ones' life is, the less anxiety... the less the anxiety, the more peaceful one can live... Therefore, I have chosen to live a more peaceful life than you, because I invest in knowledge that can be used to provide further predictability in life, my decryption key, is based in math, science, and personal observations in nature...

Your belief is yours, but you live life, in a state of anxiety... This anxiety, although it is not directly mine, can be experienced by me, because of the actions you or any other christian take as a result. For instance, a christian has a lot of anxiety because they believe that getting an abortion is murder and pregnant mothers will go to hell for such acts... Thus, some christians have taken it upon themselves to blow up, abortion clinics, in order to rid themselves of the root of their anxiety... Funny thing, the root of the anxiety wasn't the abortion clinic... it was the anxiety felt from fearing hell, which "god" created, per christian traditional belief.

So, although, you have a belief, that is founded in uncertainty, unpredictability, etc., it still finds its way into society, maybe not by you, because you have better control. However, there are others, who don't have a problem, sticking "god", in the pledge of allegience in the 1950's, or making christmas a national holiday, pushing "christ" onto people, whether they want it or not...

Bottom line, you have a belief and I have a belief, the value of either belief, is how we use that belief in our lives to find peace, and thus create unity in society.

In that context, your belief fails miserably, as religion, in general breeds contempt, hatred, and bigotry. And, because the "god key" will never provide an answer in this natural reality, there will "always" be that anxiety that exists, great for priests who need job security, not so great for those in society who have to deal with the followers.

.:webmaster:. said...

"Jesus's existence is not questioned by any scholar. His life is well established history. Even the most learned athiests will concede that fact."

Could you support that statement with some facts, figures, and references?

Jim Arvo said...

Ken: "...It makes me wonder how anyone so angry can claim to be happy, as most here do."

Are you open to the idea that a person could completely reject your religion, yet live a happy and fulfilled life? Do you think that I'm "angry" just because I disagree with your religious views?

Ken: "Jesus's existence is not questioned by any scholar. His life is well established history. Even the most learned athiests will concede that fact."

I'm going to make a guess here, and you tell me if it's accurate. Someone told you this bit about all scholars agreeing on the existence of Jesus, you accepted it without verifying it, and now you are passing it on as though it were an established fact. Am I close? Please correct me if any element of my guess is wrong. Also, please let me know if you would be interested in a list of scholars who think the existence of Jesus is questionable at best.

Ken: "The fact is that we all have a god. We all have some thing or idea or construct or person that we live for, whether consciously or not."

Interesting hypothesis. Can you back this up with anything?

Ken: "I choose to cast my lot with the creator of life."

You mean with what you BELIEVE to be the creator of the universe. Or, do you have some compelling evidence that your chosen deity is the real deal?

Ken: "...if you are right, we all rot in our graves when we die, never knowing what hit us. If I am right, some of us will be in for a big disappointment on that day..."

[Is there any way to charge people 5 cents for repeating that line? I think that would go a long way toward supporting this web site.]

Ken, why did you leave of all the other alternatives? You've barely half an argument. If Muslims are right, then we're both going to spend eternity is Islamic Hell. If Buddhists are right, then we're both going to miss out on nirvana, and we'll keep repeating this ordeal until we get it right. If the Gnostics were right, then we're both missing the key to salvation. Each religion has it's one interpretation. Your is simply one among many.

Ken: "Yes, I DO think that I have the ONE truth. That is my belief."

But how did you come to hold that belief? Was it luck of the draw (i.e. you happen to have been born into a predominantly Christian society)? Did you assiduously explore all belief systems and rule out everything but Christianity? How did it happen?

Ken: "However, given my belief, I would be doing wrong NOT to tell someone if I see them heading for a cliff with a blindfold on."

You make this analogy: NOT telling someone about your chosen deity would be like NOT telling a blind-folded individual that they are walking toward a cliff. I think that's actually a very bad analogy, so let me propose a few improvements to make it comport a bit better with reality. I'll structure it as a kind of "parable":

You say to me "Stop! You are wearing a blindfold and you are walking straight toward a cliff!"

I say to you "This is not a blindfold, they are sunglasses. Take a look and see for yourself. And that cliff you refer to is just a line painted on the sidewalk. Come take a closer look. Run your hand over it, and you'll see that there is no cliff here at all."

You reply "But I just KNOW that it's a cliff, because that is what I've been told. And I don't believe for a moment that those are sunglasses. I've been told that it is a blindfold, so I have no reason to look at it more closely."

I reply "Okay, believe what you want. Ignore the evidence that contradicts your claims if you wish. But I find your behavior very annoying. You claim to be interested in my welfare, but it seems more likely that you are just lazy about checking facts. Good day." [Puts sunglasses back on, and walks past the line.]

Ken: "Take it or leave it, but that is the motivation."

As my little parable above should make clear, I don't think it's responsible to continually "warn" people of a perceived danger if 1) you have no credible evidence that it exists, and 2) you ignore evidence to the contrary.

Ken: "Can you respect me as a person, no matter how silly you may think my beliefs are?"

Yes, I can. There are people whom I respect that represent many different religions, sects, and creeds. There is no cut-and-dried formula for what I respect and what I do not. As a general rule, however, I tend to respect those people who show steadfast intellectual honesty--e.g. who are not loath to examine their own beliefs, who admit that they do not know everything, and are fully aware that other people can hold legitimate opinions that are contrary to their own.

Ken: "...this is a confirmation of Christ's own words when he said that his followers would be despised for his sake."

I wouldn't don the mantle of martyrdom just yet. Try examining your beliefs first. Try understanding some opposing beliefs first.

Ken: "No, God does NOT hate people who are homosexual. He loves them with an amazing love."

Can you support that assertion with something? Why does the god of the OT prescribe that they be stoned to death? What stoning okay back then?

Ken said...

Many atheists or other non-religious people like to nurture in their imaginations the image of Christians as a bunch of backwater, wild-eyed, bigoted, joyless moralizers, who are uneducated and gullible, to boot. Yep, there are some like that. Of course, the idealized image that atheists like to show of themselves is that of a calculating, strong, and highly logical intellectual. I know that a good many nonbelievers do fit that description. However, I surely don’t need to tell you that no matter what one's beliefs, there will be people within that group that represent the whole array of humanity, from those with the best of traits, motives and ideals, to those with the very worst.

I say this to help you to understand that coming into a discussion with a predetermined set of stereotypes will not serve anyone well. I, for one, am not a blind follower of a list of precepts that I just happened into. As someone who makes his living in applied science, I am fully capable of analysis and investigation, and have done that with regards to my beliefs. I have simply come to a different conclusion than you have. Incidentally, it is interesting to note that most or all of the Ivy League schools, as well as dozens of other of the most prestigious universities were founded by Christians (or churches). Furthermore, most of the key sciences were born of the work of Christian thinkers, some of whom are Pasteur, Newton, Boyle, Maxwell, Kepler, Faraday, and since you mentioned encryption, how about Babbage?

Either they were all weak-minded and gullible fairytale believers, or they looked at the evidence and arrived at rational conclusions. I think you need to think very carefully before asserting the former.

The fact is that there are plenty of astute atheists that have gone through the analysis, and have become former athiests. One of the more prominent among them is Antony Flew, the British philosopher. True, he has not gone so far as to embrace Christianity, but he has at least been intellectually honest enough to now acknowlege that we are not here by chance.

You have all made some great points, and asked some tough questions. But, I will need to end with the following, or else this post will become too long.

A couple people have asked for evidence that Jesus existed. I will start by saying that the Bible says so. “Wait!” you say. “You can’t use the Bible to prove it.” To that, I will say that the Bible is, indeed, understood to be the most highly accurate historical record of that era. To this day, archeaologists continue to find countless examples that prove that people, places, and events referred to in the Bible indeed existed, after having been challenged by skeptics for many years. To date, there have been no historical statements given in the Bible that have been proven to be false. Certainly, there are some yet to be proven true, but by far, the preponderance of evidence shows that we can trust the Biblical record.

But, even if we insist on discounting that, we can turn to many other sources of the time, such as Tacitus and Josephus, and even the Talmud. These are the writings of authors either ambivalent or even hostile to Chrisitianity, but they mention Jesus and what he did, as well as his death on the cross. They even mention that following his death, people saw him and worshipped him.

Please don’t tell me that I am just repeating what others have told me, until you have been honest enough with yourself to look at the evidence yourself, instead of simply repeating what YOU have heard others say. We must look at the facts independently – not simply at the arguments of the apologists of our views.

While much of the non-evidential facets of Christian belief are a matter of faith, it is also true that whatever one believes requires faith in something - or even in nothing. Whether it is faith in God, in nature, or in oneself, it is faith, nonetheless. I am one that would say it takes greater faith to believe that humanity, along with our intellects and our consciences, are an accident of nature. How do we all know instinctively that, say, murder is wrong? We are not animals. We were given that inner understanding of right and wrong, whether or not we dare to face it!

Thanks

- Ken

Bentley said...

Ken my dear one, you are a rambling brainwashed Pooka!

The only reason "Only Reason" that you believe that the Bible is true is because that is the first thing you were ever taught, by your parents or guardian. To go against what you've been taught would be to tear down every thing that you value sacred since your childhood.

Had you been born in Borneo, and Cananbalism was being taught as the standard religion, you would take a healthy stance in eating human flesh, just as you're trying to do here with your mythical Jesus.

Had you Ken, been born in Iraq, you would be washing and bowing to Allah 5 times and day.

To dismiss this as the truth, shows that the truth is not in you.

The above examples apply to each one of us here, me included and not just you Ken, I will admit this is true.

Had you never heard of the Bible, you would have no way of knowing that it ever existed.

Before 1492, before Coloumbus's arrival, there had never been a Bible or Church on American soil,
and the Indians would still be the main race of people's here today, had they all not been killed in the name of God and Jesus.

As Jim Arvo said, you're not displaying individual honesty, you cannot hide that from us.

Ken, I dare you to go to:
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm participation

I know you will not, because you are afraid of truth, real truth, not Bible truth.

Come back after reading that whole page and tell us how wonderful your God and Jesus are, there's been more people killed in the name of God and Jesus, than all the wars combined.

If you do not go to that page and read it, we have nothing futher to discuss, and you're not welcome here.

Anonymous said...

I beg you all ex christians...its ok that u have changed ur mind but when u try to make others to leave christianity too, u should give them an alternative. Is not healthy to be without a creed or with no spiritual guidence coz confussion and not belonging to any community leads to social disorders...

Dave8 said...

Ken: "We were given that inner understanding of right and wrong, whether or not we dare to face it!"

Uh, check out what logical recursion is, take a few courses, in neurophysiology, some organic chemistry, perhaps a couple of math courses, churn that information in your cognitive process, and tell, me... how we come to understand "right from wrong". I am sure, you will come back, with, an answer without "god" or "Jesus" involved. Now, if you want to go back in time, and start at the cosmology argument, to discern "why" we are the way we are, and accept that there are some scholars that know, pretty much "how" we are the way we are, then... great, enjoy your life. Its enough for me, to just know "how" things work, not necessarily "why", as in "why" some entity may have kick started this universe.

freeman said...

Anonymous,
Do you have any data to back up your claim, "Is not healthy to be without a creed or with no spiritual guidence coz confussion and not belonging to any community leads to social disorders..."

Last time I look at history, the world was highly ordered under the Romans, Greeks and Egyptians. Awesome libraries, science and medicine were moving forward. This all came to an abrupt end as christianity began. All knowledge of man went backwards several thousand years and then it took over 1500 years to begin to recapture what christianity destroyed.

carol said...

To yet another anonymous fucktard:

What is unhealthy is your silly belief in nonsense written by people 2000 years ago that weren't much more than cave men.

Religion is the social disorder of the worst kind. Religion is the root of most evil and harmful to all living things. It also kills a thinking mind. You being a perfect example.

I am totally at peace and happy without some bullshit belief in the supernatural. And tonight I wlll go to bed knowing if I don't wake up, I won't be facing eternal torment by a so called loving gawd.

Life is beautiful.

Regards, carol

P.S. Hi, Freeman! How are things going for your family that were Katrina victims?

boomSLANG said...

BTW Ken, you were born an Atheist, so all of your "knowledge" on Christianity was accertained through revelation. Buh-bye.

Bentley said...

Well I guess we've went overboard a little bit, we don't want to offend anyone or hurt anyone's feelings, I mean the pilgrims came over here to flee religious persecution and they killed and butchered over 50 million Native American Indians, little girls and boys and the elderly, and stole all their land, the Christian pilgrims didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, I mean we Christians invaded Iraq twice, we didn't mean to harm anyone, we still have Saddam Hussein, he's looking healthy and Ossama Ben Laden, God bless his poor soul,he's doing the best he can do, why he's hiding out in Air Force One, but where is he? We don't want to offend anyone, especially their beliefs.

We Christians, went over to Japan and dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we did not mean to hurt anyone, we just cremated over 100 thousand innocent little girls and boys and innocent Japs, so many little girls and boys were in such pain many of them hung themselves, we didn't meant to hurt anyone's feelings, we follow Jesus.

We went over to Vietnam and lost over 50 thousand of our precious young men, and we didn't want to hurt anyone, so we rebuilt Vietnam and invited them to come on over here and have fun we are a Christian Nation.

The 11 million reported immigrants, most likely 20 million, from Mexico, they've been slipping in here for over 30 years, we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, so soon they will be the majority of race, but that's OK we're a peaceful nation, we love everybody, no matter what the circumstances, we are a Christian Nation, we must follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, turn the other cheek, lets forgive every person and every trespass against us, because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

And there's 9/11, they didn't mean to hurt anyone, Satan was driving those planes, we need to be on the lookout constantly for Satan and his Angels.

Then there's Mr. Sir, Zacarias Moussaoui, he didn't mean to hurt anyone, we don't want to hurt anyones feelings or their religion, long may he worship Allah, God bless him, lets keep him constantly in our prayers!

Then there's preachers that get caught embezzeling and molesting children and murdering their spouses, Jesus said turn the other cheek, we must be Christ-like we must let any person say and do as they please and hold them unaccountable it's not their fault it's Satan he's in charge, just when necessary, otherwise it would go against our 2000 year old
Christian values, we must not judge anyone, thats God's duty, lets keep them in our prayers!

Yes indeed if it were not for the teachings of Mr. Jesus Christ, were would we all be today and how many innocent PRECIOUS HUMAN BEINGS WOULD STILL BE ALIVE TODAY OR ATLEAST WOULD HAVE ENJOYED A PEACEFUL NORMAL EXISTANCE?

Let us spray! Dear God thank you thank you for inventing our Lord and Savour, Mr. Jesus Christ, had it not been for him dear God, none of the insanity and needless suffering of so many innocent victims would have occured, there's untold millions of people that have been led astray from all common sense and rational thinking because of an delusional fantasy belief that for some reason without an imaginary Hero figure their life cannot be complete, without a mythical figure to focus their life on, their life has absolutely no meaning or value, they would prefer to kill themselves and die without a Myth that stands out greater than a reality based existance.

Thank you God, because I know you have this fetish for death and dying, the most bizare and painful death just thrills you, that's why you invented death to see innocent children and people bludgeoned and massacred, you get a cookie to watch people suffer and beg and groan and the smell of flesh gives you a hard on, you and your mythical son are one sadistic insane SOB's.

So as long as we allow your Christian teachings to be represented as our basic truths, we will continue to leave a trail of love thy neighbor and death behind us, Amen and pray ye always, prayer is the key, we'll change the world with prayer, one soul at a time.

May we all live in peace and harmony and continue to kill anyone that does not share in our selfish beliefs and dogma's.

Thank you Jesus!

Jim Arvo said...

Hello Ken,

I have a few comments on your last post of 5/06/2006 (10:41:47 PM). First, it strikes me as a bit odd that you wrote such a lengthy reply, yet did not address a single question that I put to you. Is there a reason for that?

You start out with a paragraph announcing your intention to take atheists down a notch. You portray us as harboring demeaning stereotypes of Christians, and holding inflated opinions of ourselves (while softening the blow with the qualifier "Many"). That, in itself, is a demeaning stereotype, is it not? Have you any data to back it up? You admit a strikingly obvious fact later on--that there are folks of all stripes within the ranks of any belief. You should realize that we are not so simple as to have missed that fact.

You mention numerous respected thinkers who have been Christians. Since I could come up with an equally impressive list of atheists, I'm not sure what it proves except, as you acknowledge later on, that we each need to decide for ourselves. Another obvious fact. You then make this statement: "Either they were all weak-minded and gullible fairytale believers, or they looked at the evidence and arrived at rational conclusions. I think you need to think very carefully before asserting the former." Ignoring your presumptuous remark at the end, let's look at your "either-or" statement. Either they were "weak-minded", or they were "rational". Since we obviously cannot call Newton (for example) "weak-minded" then, apparently, we must conclude that he was "rational", and therefore rational about his mystical beliefs. The obvious flaw in your argument is that you use those labels too broadly. Just because Newton was a brilliant mathematician, scientist, and philosopher, it does not mean that he applied his analytical skills uniformly. Newton was also a mystic and an alchemist. He held numerous views that would be laughed at today as terribly provincial and misguided. Was he brilliant? Yes, of course. But even brilliant people can have peculiar presuppositions and hold wholly unfounded beliefs that they never examine critically themselves. So, we're back to examining the evidence for ourselves, aren't we?

You said "...there are plenty of astute atheists that have gone through the analysis, and have become former athiests." Can you name some besides Antony Flew (who is now something of a Deist)? You say there are "plenty", so I assume that means you can produce a sizeable list. There are hundreds of intelligent and honest people at this site alone who have (often painfully) rejected Christianity after examining it critically. Among those people are former clergy and students of divinity, who had an unusually large investment in (and knowledge of) Christianity. Indeed, I posit that the preponderance of the "conversions" are in the other direction, *away* from Christianity, if we confine our attention to those who are "knowledgeable" about atheism/theism at the outset. (Here is an attempt at an objective assessment of this hypothesis, i.e. The Asymmetry of Conversion, by Steve Locks, if you are interested.)

You went on to say "...he [Flew] has at least been intellectually honest enough to now acknowlege that we are not here by chance." Now I find that statement to be very odd given some of your previous rhetoric. Are you not implying that it is intellectually dishonest to maintain the opposite view? If not, please explain what you meant.

Regarding the Bible you said that it "...is, indeed, understood to be the most highly accurate historical record of that era." It is "understood" to be so? By whom? Who calls it "the most accurate historical record of the era"? What is their rationale for deeming it so? Are you aware that there are scholars who hold a different opinion? Finally, and much more importantly, even if it were 100% accurate in terms of people, places, and things, would that imply that it is accurate with regard to its miraculous claims? None of those claims have been corroborated through extra-biblical accounts (your later comments not withstanding). There are also countless similar claims made in other "holy" books, which you presumably do not accept as being literally true. So, how did you come to believe that the fantastic stories of the Bible are literally true?

You mention Tacitus and Josephus as being sources "of the time". Surely you realize that neither of those writers was coeval with Jesus (presuming there was a Jesus). Moreover, Tacitus apparently reports only what was claimed by an existing Christian cult, and the relevant passages in Josephus are very likely late interpolations. You are aware of the evidence supporting those assertions, no? As for the Talmud, please cite the precise passages that support a historical Jesus. Of the hundreds of potentially relevant passages that I have come across, each falls into one of three categories: 1) late (e.g. 2nd century) responses to Christian claims, 2) highly masked or ambiguous passages (e.g. those concerning "Ben Stada") that may or may not refer to the Jesus of Nazareth, and 3) references to a Jesus who was put to death for blasphemies around 100 BC. If you know of any unequivocal first-century references to the Jesus of Nazareth in the Talmud, I'd appreciate it if you would point them out.

You say "Please don’t tell me that I am just repeating what others have told me, until you have been honest enough with yourself to look at the evidence yourself,..." Okay, I accept your conditions. Since I have studied the evidence put forth by both sides for many years (in fact, decades), according to your conditions I am now entitled to assert precisely what I did before, which is this: I suspect that you have accepted uncritically what you've been told, and are now simply repeating it. Nothing you've said here contradicts that, and you've had ample opportunity to set the record straight. In fact, your statement that I quoted above seems to artfully avoid the question as to whether you have examined the evidence on either side, let alone both.

You close with a collection of old saws: that we all have "faith", how could humanity be the result of an "accident", and where does our sense of "morality" come from if not from god. You also make a rather arrogant assertion about being "given" an sense of right and wrong, whether or not we "dare to face it". All of that is claptrap. First, you denigrate your own "faith" if you insist on applying the same label to ideas that are purely factually supported, because the latter get thrown out the moment they no longer comport with reality. (Is that true of your "faith"?) Second, the questions you ask are *QUESTIONS*, yet you seem to draw conclusions from them. You ask how we came to be what we are, yet you immediately retreat to your presuppositions about god without waiting (or searching!) for an answer. How assiduously have you studied what science has thus far discerned about those questions? How critically have you examined your own assumptions and conclusions? Again, my guess is very little, if at all.

If you do return, please extend me the courtesy of answering a few of the questions I've put to you. Also, please list a few books you've read that are critical of Christianity.

Good day.

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