damaged

sent in by MJ

Where to begin...I'll start with what the word "Christian" meant to me
"Christ-like". I'd like to say that I was trying my hardest to be
Christ-like everyday since I was 8. I wanted to grow up and be in the
ministry. When I was 15 er so my church's pastor had an affair. I was a
little angry by the hypocrisy, but I knew that all 'sin' and who was I to
judge anyway. I watched that church split in half. Then a year later it
split again. Well shortly after that I found a different church in
Urbana to go to. I hoped that I would never experience that type of pain
again. After all, who was I to put a human on a pedestal?

I began to love that new church. After graduating from high-school
and when I was going to college I became a leader at that church's youth
group. I was the leader of the drama team there. It was then I started to
see the politics involved behind the scenes. I was a strong believer
that church was a place that people could come to fellowship together and
support each other. After a while, I knew that in order for me to reach
my "calling" I needed to go away to a school in Ohio. The plans were
that after I completed my schooling I was to come back a start a
discipleship training program at my home church.

So, off I went to Ohio. I went to a discipleship training school. To
those who don't know, it's schooling that is supposed to help you get
closer to God and get you prepared to be in the ministry (youth pastor,
children's pastor, pastor, women's pastor, music pastor, i.e.). I loved
it. Then, the person that I looked up to the most, the director of the
school's wife had an affair w/ a 16 year-old boy (he was the worship
leader of the youth group). She was pregnant. The boy was the father. Over
the summer, between school year's I got a call from the church's pastor
saying that the director and his wife were not going to be back for my
2nd year. They said he was going to be a senior pastor elsewhere. I
went back the second year only to find out half-way through the school
year, after we couldn't get a refund or even transfer, what happened the
first year I was there. The only reason that the church told us was
because the 16 year-old got full custody of the new baby and was bringing
it to church w/ him. The church rejects people who sin but yet if
someone of significance of the church gets caught up in it, then the church
tries to cover it up.

You would think that after my 2nd big disappointment that I would run
far, far, far away. I didn't. I don't like to quit. That's not in my
nature. Well I came back to the church in Urbana. Remember I left for
Ohio, so I could come back and start a new ministry at that church. That
didn't happen. The church in Urbana decided to overlook me, a girl, and
give it to a guy. He wasn't qualified and had no idea what this ministry
was about. I just kept my mouth shut but inside I was livid. I thought
how could this guy who's only form of exercise is running over people
on a daily basis get this job. Oh, maybe cause there was a glass
ceiling. The closest that a woman could get to being a leader of a ministry is
if they are the pastor's wife!

I still stayed loyal. I went back to being a youth leader at Urbana's
youth group. I felt like I was making a difference. All of a sudden, a
bunch of teens who were gay and lesbian and bisexual started coming to
the youth group. Not very many of the youth leader's were understanding
and loving. I was the only one being Christ-like. I loved those teens.
I was the only one there that understood that no matter what your
sexual orientation, what you looked like, how much money you had, how
popular at school you were, how talented you were it didn't matter. Everyone
there had the right to be there and to be treated the same. (perfect
world). I was was in charge of the drama team again. In my final year, it
included but was not limited to a lesbian, a girl that was having sex
w/ her boyfriend, a guy that did drugs, i.e. I included them. I loved
those guys. I didn't care that they weren't perfect. I didn't care that
they were involved in 'sin'. They were teens that just needed someone to
look up to. They needed a place to belong. The youth pastor found out
about the type of people that were involved in the drama team. He knew
their names, but now he knew of their 'sin'. He called me into his
office and told me that since the teens involved in the drama team were
sinners, that there was something wrong with me. He said that my fruit was
bad, and since the fruit was bad I was bad. He kicked me off of the
leadership team. My crime, letting teens who weren't perfect in the eyes
of the church be involved in something that made them happy. I was so
hurt. I thought that I was being Christ-like. Hell, I was being a
role-model. I accepted everyone no matter who they were and what they did.

Well, that was the straw that broke the camels back. I stopped going to
church. I know that church is not my salvation. It never was and never
will be. That's what Jesus was for. I didn't stop loving God at that
point. I stopped going to church. When I stopped going, that's when the
majority of my friends stopped hanging out w/ me. They assumed I wasn't
'saved' anymore. I lost hope. They stopped believing in me, I stopped
believing. When I started 'sinning' they started judging me. I refuse to
believe that the follower's of Jesus-Christ will ever prove to me that
there is something out there that is loving, just, merciful, etc. If
the Christ followers aren't loving, merciful, etc. why would their God
be? If I were trying to follow a god, I would try to portray the
character and nature of that god. Not do the exact opposite. I believe that the
Christian God can't exist if His people can't even get Him right.


Savoy
State IL
US
How old were you when you became a Christian? 8
How old were you when you ceased being a Christian? 25ish
Why did you become a Christian? I loved the fact that someone could
forgive me
Why did you de-convert? I hated the fact that when I 'failed, sinned,
back-slide' (whatever you call it) the Christians never forgave.
reed dot melinda at gmail dot com

35 comments:

ex-pentecostal preacher said...

MJ

Good post, you are in good company here.

A lot of church people are a real trick, you don't have to push them too far to see who they really are under the facade.

The double standard is always an interesting situation also. I've seen it before myself as have most of the regular posters here.

Is it not interesting when you are accepting and loving toward all people that you become the enemy of the church leadership, not the first time that has happened also.

If you watch the posts that the fundamentalist make on this site you will see that they access no one value who is not of their thinking and belief system.

The fundamentalist come in here and reinforce the reasons why so many have had to reject xianity.

Xianity is a religion based on fear, guilt, shame, condemnation and repressed sexuality, created by a few who wish to control others. Pretty basic actually once you can see it for what it is in a proper context.

The civil rights violations by the patriarchal religions is astounding. They cannot even access women equal rights with men and they are trying to tell others about their superior morality. This does not even go to the issue of the gay, lesbian and bi-sexual community, as viewed by the patriarchal religions and their hate and created hate crimes against these people. Real xian love on this issue.

Guess I'm on my soap box a bit.

Glad to see your post stick around, welcome to the neighborhood.

ex-pentecostal preacher
Fred

commonbrokenness said...

Dear MJ

Thank you for being so honest with your pain here. My heart is also bleeding for the sin in the church. I just wanted to share something that has helped me in similar frustrating times. Matt 13:24-26
Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared."The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

The sad reality is that we are all broken. Christ did die so that we may experience His love, though He also warned us that much suffering will come before we get to be home with Him. I believe that when He says that He is sending out as sheep among wolves, the wolves are not the unbelievers or those outside the church, but the wolves are the weeds masquerading as wheat. Christ said, the world hates me how much more will it hate you. You will experience much suffering in this world but take heart for I have overcome the world. You MJ have shown an awareness that sin is in the world, that forgiveness is needed. My prayer is not that you would give up on God, for He will bring justice to pass, but instead stand firm in your understanding of His love and mercy and do not let the wolves frighten you away. I am grateful to see that you took a stand to include "sinners" in your ministry - just as Jesus came as a doctor not to help those who are well but to serve those who are sick and in need of Him. And he was harshly criticized and ridiculted for His outreach. Whatever you decide, I feel that it would be a deep loss to church if we lose freedom fighters such as you who are passionate about living out the image of Christ in this hurting world.

Your sister,
CB

Dave8 said...

Commonbrokenness: "Christ did die so that we may experience His love, though He also warned us that much suffering will come before we get to be home with Him."

Right, by his own hand...

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jim Lee said...

Some of us have to learn the hard way. Christianity is for suckers.

Anonymous said...

Nice testimony. Sorry you had to find out the hard way that christianity is a patriachal system not a egalitarion one.

I would like to invite you to join ex-christian.net forum

There you will be find like minded people, and you will definately enjoy our discussions.

Cya

Kile said...

Jesus said; forgive them father for they no not what they do, and they still do not know what the hell they are doing, (the christians). Jesus was a rebel, he dispised religion, he preached against it constantly. Jesus was murdered for his stance against religion, politics and traditions. All Jesus's parables and quotes were taken completely out of context and construed by the people that claimed to have witnessed the crucifixion. The story of Jesus is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated in the history of the world. Not one word was written by Jesus himself nor Mary or Joseph. All Bible text was written purely on speculation and a vivid imagination while under the influence of opium and other exotic drugs.

Gliph said...

MJ -

That is an amazing post. Thank you for sharing something that is obviously still very very painful. You are definitely in good company, and you should join us in the forums for other testimonies, I find them helpful and inspiring.

Keep searching for your own path, you'll find out what is right for you. There is a great support group here with lots of information to help you on your journey.

Welcome! :)

Anonymous said...

Hi, just wanna say, I know how you feel. I completely understand. But I also wanna say, as a christian, that we as christians mess up just like everybody else. We try but sometimes we just mess up and make really bad decisions. Just because we have christ doesn't mean that we are perfect, we are just forgiven by a God who created us and loves us. Im so sorry that you went through so much with your different churches. That must be so hard.

Well, anyways, I just wanted to try and show you my position. Its really quite hard to see how we, as humans, are like this, but just know that we all make mistakes whether we are christian or not.

God loves us and because of this, he died on a cross to save us. He does not expect perfection, he just hopes the best for us and tries to watch over us as our father, He watches over me and keeps me safe.

Anyways, sry, I don't mean to be rude. I just hate to see ppl in pain because of what other ppl have done, especially if the ppl are turning ppl like you away from our faith and I wanted to tell you that I cared. People of all religions can be pretty nasty, and we are no different. I only hope that you haven't given up on us completely.

I'll keep you in my prayers!!!
~Anonymous

chris said...

Hi MJ

It may not seem like it right now, but getting kicked out was probably the best thing that could have happened to you. A whole world of freedom awaits you. You now have the freedom to love others without judgment.

Unfortunately, those people are not acting like the opposite of the character of their god - they are very consistent with it. Read the OT. That being is full of hate and judgment, and arrogance, etc. Be thankful that you're out of it!

Anonymous said...

I've been through the same shzit with the churches i tried, i was just like you, i found out about the fallacious constructs of being "Christ-like", and then when you "sinned" or ironically enough, not paying 20% of your tithes ( juat in case you missed a few") they get the "holier than thou" mentality to condemn you, break up your marriage (God Hates Divorce, lol) and the same muthafuzkas who say "I love you bro", you never hear from again, because they can't manipulate and brainwash you like they can the other. Its all a big front, just like the post from the Christians who "intervene" on this site, they always present themselves as, "I'm a christian and i feel for you, and i love you" all full of shzit, give them some time, cuz they'll remind you of who they truly are. The first two times should've taught you about their true character, don't let it take third time to wake you up. My belief? God exist, but his character has been used to manipulate, exploit the ignorance and pain of man, and treats Jesus as a mere commodity, to get more loot in their pockets. Just look at T.D. Jakes, and all the pastors that live well, have private jets, and make money off of the suckers who need "healing".

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I totally know how you feel! hypocrits are what they are, but christians aren't ALL hypocrits. I think its like any other religion. There are a few people that make it worse for everybody, but that happens in every religion. One example would be in muslim communities, I don't think that they all believe in bombing america. Actually, I know a lot of really great muslin people. It was those few fanatics that took out the world trade centers that made many americans hate all muslims. I think that a lot of christians can be good, even if a lot of them are also hypocritical. Like, for me, I know that Im not perfect. I know Im not. Im just trying my best.

and, Im so sorry, I really don't mean to "intervene". I really, truely don't mean to by saying this.

Anonymous said...

Well, the funny thing is church is supposed to be a safe-haven. It never is. Those teens I was talking of in the drama team stopped going to church as well. It wasn't a safe place anymore. My sister still goes to that church every once in a while. My old "friends" ask her how I am doing and say they are worried that I haven't been there. If they were truly my friend they would have called. As well, when they see me out (at the mall er something) they treat me like I am Satan in the flesh. I know that not all "Christians" are judgmental, hypocritical, and so on. Let's face it. How many "christians" read all these testimonies say I am sorry that happened to you, I am a christian myself. Well, christians hurt others on a regular basis. It's a common trend. To all those christians out there reading this, getting upset that I ruffling your precious lifestyle this is a call. Stop sitting on your ass, get up and start treating people the way that your Christ did. Just in case you don't know, he was said to be loving, merciful, not judgmental, caring. He was a good person. remember he said, "Let him w/out sin be the first to condemn." Well, stop judging people, stop condemning us. You aren't w/out sin either. MJ

Anonymous said...

Yes!! you definately have a good point and I definately agree with you. Im sry that those people treated you so horribly. I really am just so sorry. I really see your point. I still say that we try our best but as humans we mess up. I mess up a lot because Im just not perfect like Christ but thats no excuse and Im so sorry that we caused you so much grief and agrivation. Im sure you must have been so frustrated. I would be frustrated too! I would be infuriated if I was trying to bring people into the church and make them feel welcome and help them out and someone came and said that I wasn't aloud to let them help or make them welcome! I agree. We are supposed to make the church into a haven and protected place to be, but we have made it a place with jugdment and biasses. However, I think that the church is not what we are supposed to be worshipping. Even though the church is sometimes unwilling to be christlike, we are supposed to be worshipping God not the people around you inside the church.

Anyway, sry again, I must be really annoying to you guys. I don't mean to be. You all sound annoyed but I just love to talk and listen to y'all. Sorry again.

Uncle Joe said...

Intersting that you could accept and forgive all the sinners who came to your drama group but you could not accept and forgive the youth pastor or other Christians who sinned.

I guess you could only accept and forgive certain people.

Was believing in YOU, as you say, the standard?

Heavey Feather said...

MJ,
I don't know what Christ-like is any more. Whatever I had understood under the term was a figment of my imagination. But I do know what a rolemodel is: someone worth emulating. That you aspired to be one and achieved that for those children is amazing. Don't let your experiences with religion change your wish to be a rolemodel. One can do so without religion.

---
Uncle Joe: "Was believing in YOU, as you say, the standard?"

I don't think you get it. MJ believed in doing what is Right, that is, accepting all the kids that she was working with. On the other hand, the people who told MJ to leave were those that couldn't accept her - not for doing anything wrong herself, but for working with people they thought were sinners and who they didn't accept themselves.

MJ's standard that you're referring to is the common standard of right and wrong: working with children is right, turning them away is wrong.
Upside-down standards didn't sit well with MJ's intrinsic sense of fairness and she left.

Anonymous said...

You know there's an old saying, "Hurt me once, shame on you. Hurt me twice, shame on me. Hurt me 3 times, I am a fool." Would you, Uncle Joe, stay around and continue to get trampled on? Nobody in their right mind would do that. How can you say that MJ doesn't forgive. You can forgive and still hurt. You can forgive and still be cautious.

Anonymous said...

MJ

My heart goes out to you...what you are feeling is perfertly normal human emotions from actions done by far from perfect people. You remember Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We all fall short, even Christians. There is this idea out there that we think we are perfect or that others think we should be perfect, but neither is true!

I have been there myself and I left a church for the same judgment spirit and it taught me that so long as I kept my eyes on people I would be disappointed because people are people, no matter what faith you espouse. You can not judge all Christians by one man's actions, we should not discount 'Christianity' because there are those who do not live by example the life they should anymore than we should discount all men who are not Christians because of the evil actions that other non Chistians do.

I would encourage you to keep forgiving and don't let bitterness take root, forgiving only benefits you and reveals your own spiritual growth. I would ecourage you to hold on to your faith and remember to keep your eyes on God and not people. We are all human and Christians are diamonds in the rough always under construction. We are not perfect, it is a life long journey not one that happens the moment you chose to become a child of God. Like little children we learn as we grow, but in the meantime we still make mistakes...this is not a double standard, this is being human and not God.

As for the comment one poster gave you, to this I respond...the poster said..."A lot of church people are a real trick, you don't have to push them too far to see who they really are under the facade."

And a lot of them are not under a facade...All humans have there limits, and can be pushed or provoked beyond their limits, why because they are HUMAN and we can't be expected to handle every situation with perfection...we fail even though we want in our hearts to do things perfectly. Even Christ was provoked and it was justified when he turned over the table of money changers in the Temple.

Christianity doesn't mean you set aside your self respect and let people walk all over you or take advantage of you.

The poster says..."The double standard is always an interesting situation also. I've seen it before myself as have most of the regular posters here."

There are many tares in the Church today, but it's not for us to sit in judgment over them or over anyone else for that matter. Our responsibility is to evaluate our own lives, and own walk with God and if there is a double standard we need to confront it and weed it out, for the weed that it is.

The poster said..."Is it not interesting when you are accepting and loving toward all people that you become the enemy of the church leadership, not the first time that has happened also."

Enemy is a strong word...unloving perhaps and immature in the faith might be worthy of their actions. But the Christian, even an immature judgmental Christian isn't the enemy. You know who the enemy is, that which wants to destroy your fellowship with God and if he can use people to do it, he will, even Christian people. They only person we need to ultimately recognize our love for ALL men is God himself. We do not need to seek man's, not even Christian man's approval.

The poster says..."If you watch the posts that the fundamentalist make on this site you will see that they access no one value who is not of their thinking and belief system."

This is untrue...If Christians didn't value others who didn't hold their belief system, they wouldn't put themselves in harms way and try and share what they believe is true. All men have value and are created equally and are worth dying for...that is why Christ died for all men and why Christians try to reach people with that message that someone valued them enough to die for them. Because we value life and care what happens to people we speak out knowing we could be ridiculed for doing it. If someones choses to reject the message we bring it's their choice but we love and care for them no less. We are no better then they are, we are not more important to God, we are equally important. The only difference is that we recognise our need of the one who values us and they don't, but they are as important and as valued as we.

Again the poster says..."The fundamentalist come in here and reinforce the reasons why so many have had to reject xianity.

Xianity is a religion based on fear, guilt, shame, condemnation and repressed sexuality, created by a few who wish to control others. Pretty basic actually once you can see it for what it is in a proper context."

This is true in many respects, but not for true Christianity...there are many 'religions' with man made rules and restrictions. There are many hucksters in the world who claim to represent Christianity who want to control and rich off the faithful following.

True Christianity is based on the knowledge that there is a perfect loving and JUST God, who has offers us everlasting life and only requires we admit and repent of our wrong doing. Should a murderer or a rapist or a child molestor feel shame, or guilt or fear punishment for the consequences of his actions? Absolutely! There is nothing wrong with feeling shame or fear or guilt for wrong actions, in fact it's instictivly right. I agree that there are those who abuse this and again isn't that the point of fallen man and his nature?

I would encourage you not to throw out the baby with the bath water. There are many men in the puplpit who know not God, and there are many sheaves in wolves clothing.

I would add one more food for thought...There are NO ex-Christians. These are people who tasted the truth, but never chewed it up and swallowed. They may have had head knowledge but it never reached the heart where true transformation takes place, therefore they claim to have left the faith, but in reality they never had it, if they did they would know that once you belong to God that nothing can separte them feom his love. Here's an example: A child may get angry and disown his father, but the truth is he is still is father, nothing you do or they do can undo the bloodline.

Anonymous said...

How dare you say that we never had a relationship with God. You don't know us. Let me put to you like this. You had a great relationship with your best friend. One day you had a falling out, you never spoke to each other since. You remember some of the great times you had, but neither of you are able to get that friendship back to where it used to be, maybe niether one of you want to. So in that case, did you really have a relationship w/ that friend at all? Did you imagine it? No, you had a relationship. Not imagined. In the same case, we had a relationship w/ God. It wasn't a head knowledge. It was real. We had a falling out w/ God so to speak. Some of us feel he's a liar, some feel christianity is a lie. But you can never take away the fact that at one point our relationship was true. Now, it's not.

Anonymous said...

You are right I don't know you, but I know who God say's He is and there's a big difference between having a 'falling out' with people and permenately braking off a relationship with them, something we have some control over, but once a person choses to become a child of God you are His and nothing can separate us from Him or His love, not even our childish rebellion, that's the difference between His love and forgivness verse's man's, it's uncomprehendable and it's unmatchable. The true believer may 'fall way' for a time like many disobedient children do and the Father let's us go our own way, because we're not puppets on a string, but when we do the relationship will suffer because of OUR alienation, not His, but the relationship is never severed, we are still His children.

You may have a falling out with a parent, you may chose to never speak to them again, but you can not crawl back into the womb and undue the fact that you are their child and always will be.

As far as getting a relationship back to where it used to be, you are right when talking about earthly relationships, it may be impossible, but nothing is impossible for God if He is who He say's He is and We can't campare a a Father (God) / child relationship with Him to an earthy relationship. You see it is true that neither you or your friend may want to reconcilate, or are able to get it back the way it was, but regarless of how you feel about Him, God always wants us to reconcile with Him and He is able to accomplish it. His love won't and can't lose those who have come into a personal relationship with Him. That's love...

Dave8 said...

Uncle Joe: "Intersting that you could accept and forgive all the sinners who came to your drama group but you could not accept and forgive the youth pastor or other Christians who sinned."

One that lives by the sword, perishes by the sword... pastors tell people they are depraved, sinners bound for hell, else there would be no need for jesus to come to earth... pastors then state that people need to be held accountable for their sins, according to their "absolute" beliefs... I suppose one could allow a pastor to be hypocritical, or one could apply the same rules to the pastor... Personally, I don't believe in "absolutes" besides "change", however, if a citizen wants to "preach" absolutes, which create intolerance, etc., then I really don't have a problem holding them accountable to the same intolerant rules of their belief system...

There are many people living today who don't hold, absolutes, and who aren't intolerant, and thus are more compassionate with the human condition... these people, receive the same benefit in return...

I deviate slightly from the godlen rule, which states; do unto others, as you would have them do unto you...

I am more of the; do unto others as they would do unto you...

The goal in universal harmony is balance, and there is no substitute for "experience", I believe firmly in applying a persons' philosophy right back on them, this "will" eventually cause the person to reach a state of equilibrium, one way or another... and I have much resolve... as it appears other do also...

Anonymous said...

So you don’t believe in absolute truths… My question to you is, are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?

The definition of absolute truth-Whatever is true at one time and at one place is true at all time's. What is true for one person is true for all person's.

Truth is true whether we believe it or not. Truth is discovered or it is revealed, it is not invented by a culture or by religious men. Absolute truth cannot be a lie.

There are absolutes, all of reality proves this. The Christian world view is the most consistent with reality. There is truth and there is falsehood one cannot find out that they are wrong in unless they have an ultimate standard.

God believes in objective truth because he is that standard. The difference is that as Christians we believe God determines what is true and right which he has instructed in the Bible.

But for those who prefer to leave God out of this, life it’s self proves that there are absolute truths.

The definition of Relative truth- Truth that is true at only one time and at one place. It's true to some people and not to others. It's true now but it may not have been true in the past and it may not be again in the future, it's always subject to change. It is also subject to perspective of people.

Those who hold to the relative truth position believe man determines what is true and right and that he can change as he wills. Another wards; it may be wrong for one man to rape, but for another it’s right. It's ALL relative. If all truth is relative, would you feel safe to let your child play with a child molester since that is his relative truth?

Obviously relative truth can sometimes be harmful. The Greek philosopher Protagoras said "man is the measure of all things." This means each person can decide his own standard for right and wrong living. What is morally right for me may be morally wrong for another. This is the essence of relativism.

Examples of absolute truth...

1. It’s the recognition in the absolute truth of gravity that keeps people from jumping out of 7 story windows thinking they can fly, unless they want to die.

2. It is absolutely true, for all people, in all places, at all times they if they want to keep on living they must eat, drink and breathe.

3. it is absolutely true that a person cannot be dry and wet at the same time.

4. It is absolutely true that something cannot be true and false at the same time, both cannot be true. ex: One cannot go forward and backward at the same time. ex: One cannot live in the past and the future at the same time.

5. It is absolutely true that time goes forward, it cannot go backward.

6. It is absolutely true that you cannot have two Mts. without a valley.

7. It is absolutely true that you cannot have a stick with one end.

8. George Washington was our first president but he no longer is. His being the first president of the US was true for all time and for all people in all places. There will never be a place at any time this is not true.

9. Paris is in France

10. Napoleon died on May 5, 1821

11. It is absolutely true for all people, in all places, at all times…they will die!

We can’t test truth by our feelings. You can’t feel error, but you can use your mind to think truth. You cannot distinguish good and evil by your feelings because evil (sin) sometimes feels good.

If there is no absolute truth, no standard of right and wrong that we are all accountable to then we can never be sure of anything and people would be free to do whatever they want—murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating, etc. and who could say those things would be wrong. There could be no government, no laws to govern and no justice, because one could not even say that the majority of the people have the right to make and enforce standards upon the minority.

There are absolute truths outside the Bible, founded on physical reality, and these are clearly important for our survival. So my question again to you is, are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth? Which one of these are you willing to do without or try to prove there are no absolute truths?

.:webmaster:. said...

So because there are physical and historical "truths," that somehow means there are absolute moral truths which are found in the Bible?

Sorry, perhaps you see a connection here, but I don't.

Regardless, if God sets the standard for morality, then that is to say there is no standard of morality. For if God commands men to turn the other cheek when confronted with opposition, then that would be good and if God were to command the slaughter of an entire city of innocents, then that would also be good. Good would be defined entirely by whatever God does and whatever God commands. In other words, morality would be contingent on God and there would be no way for any of us to determine right from wrong in any given situation as we would not absolutely know Bible-God's position in a particular situation.

The commands and behaviors attributed to Bible-God provide a biblical basis for preaching situational ethics from the Bible. If God commands something, then it is good, regardless of how immoral it might appear to humans.

Now, if you say there is a higher law, an inherent absolute moral code written into the fabric of the Universe that has no exceptions or situational variables - no relativity - then even God must answer to that absolute law. As such, God is irrelevant as the absolute moral code exists without him/her/it. If God cannot break the absolute moral code then he/she/it is not omnipotent - he/she/it is limited in a way that mere humans are not limited. I can break the absolute moral code but God cannot - therefore I can do something that God cannot do.

To recap: If Bible-God defines absolute morality, then absolute morality changes constantly based on the arbitrary decisions of Bible-God. The only real absolute moral truth would be that God does whatever he/she/it wants whenever he/she/it wants. The only thing we mere humans could hope to do is to seek guidance from this deity and conform to its whims. Each situation would mandate a different judgment by the deity -"...whoa unto him who restrains his sword from blood" or, "turn the other cheek" etc.

If there is an absolute moral code that God cannot break, then we are more powerful than this god and we don't need the god to define right from wrong.

Either way your argument is a loser.

benji said...

Some of the more obtuse examples demand responses.

1. It’s the recognition in the absolute truth of gravity that keeps people from jumping out of 7 story windows thinking they can fly, unless they want to die.

What if the building is on fire and there's a net below? Then wouldn't you say they want to live?

3. it is absolutely true that a person cannot be dry and wet at the same time.

No, it isn't. A person can be said to be "wet" in the sense that the body is mostly water, or "dry" in the sense that he's completely toweled off after a shower. Or, a person's leg can be said to be wet while the rest of her is relatively dry. These are relative terms.

4. It is absolutely true that something cannot be true and false at the same time, both cannot be true. ex: One cannot go forward and backward at the same time. ex: One cannot live in the past and the future at the same time.

I'm not sure what you mean by living in the past and the future at the same time. I didn't think either was possible, except in the poetic sense. "Forward" and "backward" are obviously relative, unless you live in a cave.

5. It is absolutely true that time goes forward, it cannot go backward.

I will defer to those who are more knowledgeable about relativity.

6. It is absolutely true that you cannot have two Mts. without a valley.

Now you've lost me. Do you mean mountains that are side by side? Else I can simply say Mt. Rainier and Mt. Everest, and we can suppose that you believe everything "in between" to be a valley, in the absolute sense of the word.

8. George Washington was our first president but he no longer is. His being the first president of the US was true for all time and for all people in all places. There will never be a place at any time this is not true.

That is true, according to the Constitution we follow today. But it depends on when you believe the United States came into existence. Our pre-Constitution constitution, the Articles of Confederation, provided for the office of seven presidents previous to Washington. However, they followed a different set of rules than Washington so the issue is debatable whether they were "presidents" in the modern sense.

9. Paris is in France

Paris was founded over two millennia ago. France technically wasn't founded until around 500 A.D. So, no, this hasn't always been true, and it might not always be.

I admit I looked a few quick facts up on the internet. I wonder, though, if I'm not just indulging a person who lacks the ability either to think about these sorts of things, or to do the research, before posting his comments.

Anonymous said...

You obviously missed the point of this post! it wasn't focused on God's absolute morals.

This post was in response to someone who stated there were NO absolutes at all! I left God out of it, to prove that point was wrong. It was you who felt a need to bring God into it. The point was that in this very world you live in with or without God there are absolutes and some have moral implications.

Can you deny that you and ALL men will absolutely die, with or without the belief in God?

Can you deny the other absolutes mentioned in the post?

.:webmaster:. said...

Now you are lying anony.

You said: God believes in objective truth because he is that standard. The difference is that as Christians we believe God determines what is true and right which he has instructed in the Bible.

You are at the very least disingenuous. You're only reason for posting this here is to PROVE BIBLE-GOD!

Perhaps you ignored it, but I stand by my above post. Natural physical laws of science and historical facts have no correlation to mystical supernatural beliefs.

And please - use another pseudonym instead of anonymous. All these "annonymous" Christians is getting annoying.

Anonymous said...

Yours is a typical response from someone, who can't believe that there are free-thinkers even within Christianity who take the time (years) to study and research things on their own and come to their own conclusions.

Perhaps you realize that ex-Christians, athestist and agnostics are not the only ones who are sincerley looking for answers, for truth. Most people want truth. Not every Christian who sits in a church accepts every word out of a ministers mouth as 'gospel truth'. We are all responsible for what we chose to believe and it's up to us as individuals to gather information from all sources Biasest and unbiasest and make a conclusion.

Well, copy and paste...hardly, more like a lifetime of pursuing truth and making up my own mind.

Anonymous said...

Would anyone here consider jumping out of a 7 story building that wasn't on fire and had no safety net under it? Why?

Can anyone see the moral implications on society of relative truth when it comes to someone wanting to rob a bank, or your pocket and thinking it's perfectly okay?

There must be an absolute moral standard otherwise who decides whats right or wrong...the theif? Many people don't think stealing is wrong and yes the Bible states it is.

I guess I would have to conclude and trust that an infinate and all-knowing God knows more about morals than his creation.

I guess the question might be...Is God omnipotent? Will just have to wait and see, won't we?

Peace to you

Anonymous said...

You said "Now you are lying anony.

You said: God believes in objective truth because he is that standard. The difference is that as Christians we believe God determines what is true and right which he has instructed in the Bible."

No, I wasn't lying. I stated what I beleive and the differences between objective, absolutes and relative positions, but my arguement was not based on the the objective only on the absolutes.

.:webmaster:. said...

Anony - you have obviously swallowed the Reconstructionist bait, but once you shed the high sounding words and the convoluted thinking, you'll find there is really nothing there.

Good luck.

freeman said...

Anony said;
"Can anyone see the moral implications on society of relative truth when it comes to someone wanting to rob a bank, or your pocket and thinking it's perfectly okay?

There must be an absolute moral standard otherwise who decides whats right or wrong...the theif? Many people don't think stealing is wrong and yes the Bible states it is."

Please explain country's ability to pass laws against stealing, murdering, etc without knowledge of your precious bible. Think of all the native american tribes who lived peacefully and had their own moral code which had absolutely nothing to do with your bible!

How about the moral code is the human code which allows society to fucntion and survive. This code was developed over time, long before your bible and its god were invented!

Dave8 said...

Anonymous 12/29/2005 10:46 AM EST: "Do you don’t believe in absolute truths… My question to you is, are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?

Are you absolutely sure you exist anonymous... Prove it... And... please, if you need to define your epistemological limits, I have time, and don't be weary of using "physical" evidence for your existence... that would make things much easier in this conversation... Because, physically speaking, "Change" is the only "Absolute" truth known, based on "empirical" and "physical" evidence... By the way, if everything in existence gives evidence for "Change" being Absolute in a physical sense, then as far as anyone can honestly "know"... Change... is Absolute... If you want to debate how far the human cognition and ability to process information can extend, then... you are talking outside of a realm that you obviously can't be an expert on... and thus, the conversation would render nothing of value...

Anonymous: "The definition of absolute truth-Whatever is true at one time and at one place is true at all time's. What is true for one person is true for all person's."

That would be a "Universal" absolute truth... not a "Personal" truth, which is unique to each person, and can be "Personally Absolute", depending on a persons' level of conviction and refusal to observe "change" in their life... take religious beliefs for instance, some people believe a god exists, with no proof, and they believe that absolutely, that does make it a personal truth, but... its not Universal... as I differ in belief...

Anonymous: "Truth is true whether we believe it or not."

You need to learn the difference between a personal absolute truth, and a universal absolute truth...

Anonymous: "Truth is discovered or it is revealed, it is not invented by a culture or by religious men."

You really need to study some philosophy... and fast... Magicians "reveal" magic tricks to people, and some accept the magic tricks as "truth"... Therefore, its apparent that "truth", can be "invented" by a culture, and even "one person", Santa Clause was invented by a culture and a few select individuals, and there are entire groups of children who "believe" Santa Clause is "truth"...

Anonymous: "Absolute truth cannot be a lie."

True by definition, however, you have no evidence for an "absolute" Universal Truth, other than change, if in fact you stick to reality as residing in this physical reality...

Anonymous: "There are absolutes, all of reality proves this."

Give me "one" Universal Absolute, that "Change" can not undo... Even your religion changes, because the bible is subjected to this physical reality... and this physical reality, changes in language, thought, idea, and ultimately "knowledge"...

Anonymous: "The Christian world view is the most consistent with reality."

Define reality... and how Christianity aligns with that reality...

Anonymous: "There is truth and there is falsehood one cannot find out that they are wrong in unless they have an ultimate standard."

Define your "absolute" Christian truth, and standard... I'm intrigued at how you have come to the conclusion that Christianity has some "absolute" standard from which to measure falsehood...

Anonymous: "God believes in objective truth because he is that standard."

You know this Absolutely, I take it... and how does a god really think... since you are obviously attached to this god in some fashion...

Anonymous: "The difference is that as Christians we believe God determines what is true and right which he has instructed in the Bible."

Your god murdered people throughout the Old Testament, your god, condemned all of humanity to sin, and hell, as an omniscient god obviously knew adam and eve would sin... Your god, and even Jesus breaks the majority of moral laws in the bible, i.e., Jesus did not keep the sabbath day holy, etc...

Anonymous: "But for those who prefer to leave God out of this, life it’s self proves that there are absolute truths."

Man's god, was "never" in this... by the way, life is not absolute... you will "Change", into a different form, called death...

Anonymous: "The definition of Relative truth- Truth that is true at only one time and at one place."

And it makes sense, that is why there are judges in court rooms, they have to make decisions based on the current circumstances... relative truth, is consistent with the Absolute Truth of Change... by the way, if you can't "Know" something, then you can't make a comment about it, just wanted to clarify that once again... so if you can't "know" god, or an Absolute Truth, then you are creating nothing short of hypothetical opinions...

Anonymous: "It's true to some people and not to others. It's true now but it may not have been true in the past and it may not be again in the future, it's always subject to change. It is also subject to perspective of people."

Okay...

Anonymous: "Those who hold to the relative truth position believe man determines what is true and right and that he can change as he wills. Another wards; it may be wrong for one man to rape, but for another it’s right. It's ALL relative. If all truth is relative, would you feel safe to let your child play with a child molester since that is his relative truth?"

If a person has been deemed a child molester, then... Anony... their values and actions, are no longer relative are they, someone has made a determination on a persons' behavior patterns... their behavior will still, be relative to society in general... study some law... the age of marital consent is different from one state to another in the U.S., therefore, in one state a person could be considered a child molester, while in another state be considered out on a date... The parents of the child, have relative values, and beliefs...

Anonymous: "Obviously relative truth can sometimes be harmful. The Greek philosopher Protagoras said "man is the measure of all things." This means each person can decide his own standard for right and wrong living. What is morally right for me may be morally wrong for another. This is the essence of relativism."

Wow... Oh, you give a few examples, I'll take a few, and leave you with there are no absolutes...

Examples of absolute truth...

1. It’s the recognition in the absolute truth of gravity that keeps people from jumping out of 7 story windows thinking they can fly, unless they want to die.

Universally absolute means gravity is constant in the Universe equally, through all dimension... are you suggesting gravity is the same on earth as it is on the moon...

2. It is absolutely true, for all people, in all places, at all times they if they want to keep on living they must eat, drink and breathe.

Your "condition" of living, is relative, some eat more than others, and dare I say, you as a christian believe there is more than "one" life to live, right... Plus, dying a physical death, occurs because of "Change" in ones eating habits, therefore, "Change" is the constant, leading to the ultimate "change", physical death... ane each of your conditions, eat, drink and breath, are relative... coma patients don't initiate the act of eating, they are given food, water, and oxygen at times, and the amount is not "constant" per person, its "relative"...

If you want, I can go down the list, everything is "relative", there is no constant, just because one "says" using definition a constant Universal Absolute truth exists, doesn't make it so, remember...

Anonymous said...

A 16 year old with a directors wife, thats hot!

Anonymous said...

Churches are flawed, each and every one of them. It seems to me your faith in mankind has been injured and your feelings hurt but I hear no doubts about god or faith or the truth of it all in your post. You sound like a wounded Christian but I don't think you are an exchristian. I say it better to turn the other cheek and continue to be a Christian but to be serious about it and be empowered by these events. You have seen the true face of evil, so now go a fight it. BE A REAL CHRISTIAN ! Teach tolerance, compassion, and charity! Love everyone, and fight for justice and equity for everyone, even gays and Muslims!

But if you don't truly believe, then be an ex-christian, then go each tolerance, compassion, and charity! Love everyone, and fight for justice and equity for everyone, even gays and Muslims!

Just so you don't think I'm a fundy secret agent, If god were real, on judgment day I’d still tell him he can go f**k himself, unconditional love my ass!

Anonymous said...

Just because people go to a Christian church, does not mean they are Christian or "Christ-like." For some reason people get this point confused. Christians a few in numbers. People go to church because they need help. If they did not need help they would not be there. You look at the obvious sins like drinking and smoking and say, "well they must be christian because they don't smoke crack." Well, God said that any of us claim to have Him and do not love, we are not His. So, before you start judging people with your carnal mind, know what you are talking about. Study the Word for real. Since you claim that people can love without God, do it. Since people can be sin free without God, do it.

I know you will say you can't or whatever excuses that devil has given you. The reality is that you can't stop sinning without God. And you can't love people and treat them right without God. Churches have gotten bad names because people are bringing the "world into the church" in the name of winning them over. Yes, we need to go out to the highway and hedges and compel people to come to church, but the standards are not supposed to be lowered. Since the standards are lowered, sin has entered into the church and God is not pleased with it.

.:webmaster:. said...

Anony, you probably mean well, but saying "you can't love people and treat them right without God" is infantile thinking.

What you are saying is that only Christians love people and treat people in the right fashion. I'm afraid you're wrong about that, there are millions of wonderful, loving people who are not Christian. And frankly, Christians are frequently guilty of treating people poorly.

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