Still Holding On
sent in by J. Strong
For the past five years, I've struggled with making a decision.
Whether I should stay with Christianity or leave it alone. Over a period of
time, I've found that the religion I've once relied on has the
credibility of any children's fable. I go to church every week and sing in the
choir. The whole experience can be nerve racking because I feel like
I'm the only one saying "am I the only one hearing this garbage?". I
don't have any experiences of abuse or mistreatment by the church. As a
matter of fact, I've grown to respect, love and appreciate members of
the church. Especially those who have been a part of my life since the
very beginning.
That's one of the reasons it's so difficult to leave. The other
is that my wife, mother, father, sisters are all Christians, therefore
it would not be a great environment for an agnostic or atheist. I don't
have many other friends or activities outside of the church. It's
pretty much all I know and without it, I have absolutely nothing. I don't
feel smart enough to operate in the real world where you're required to
be clever, witty and dependent on yourself. I've spent my whole life
depending on a God that doesn't exist. I want to have someone help me
or tell me what to do. I want someone to love me and have my back. I
want someone to manage the things I can't control. Although I know the
truth, I still find myself holding on. Hoping that maybe I'm wrong and
that this God will talk to me face to face. But after many years of
asking, I suppose that's not going to happen.
It's difficult to talk to believers because they don't require
evidence for what they believe. Their fundamental question is do I
believe in God? The fundamental question for me is does God exist? If God
doesn't exist then every other thing based on God existing is
irrelevant, regardless of what I believe. So should I take the pill and enter a
world that can be cold, lonely, uninviting, potentially good but
utterly pointless where I'll be free but miserable. Or should I take the
other pill which keeps me where I am. A place where people act like they
care, I have a purpose and can really make a difference (although I
don't know what my purpose is). Even if I know that whold world is based
on a complete lie.
I wanted to choose to go back to the matrix, but once I found out
it wasn't real, there was no point. I seem to be doomed to live a
miserable, depressed life with no hope for anything different. No matter
what decision I make. Life sucks.
Chicago
IL
Cook
Joined: 9
Left: Still claiming (29)
Was: Presbyterian
Now: Certain but Confused
Converted because: Felt I should do it and get it out the way.
Considering de-conversion because: It's not real
Email: JERALDA at SBCGLOBAL dot NET
For the past five years, I've struggled with making a decision.
Whether I should stay with Christianity or leave it alone. Over a period of
time, I've found that the religion I've once relied on has the
credibility of any children's fable. I go to church every week and sing in the
choir. The whole experience can be nerve racking because I feel like
I'm the only one saying "am I the only one hearing this garbage?". I
don't have any experiences of abuse or mistreatment by the church. As a
matter of fact, I've grown to respect, love and appreciate members of
the church. Especially those who have been a part of my life since the
very beginning.
That's one of the reasons it's so difficult to leave. The other
is that my wife, mother, father, sisters are all Christians, therefore
it would not be a great environment for an agnostic or atheist. I don't
have many other friends or activities outside of the church. It's
pretty much all I know and without it, I have absolutely nothing. I don't
feel smart enough to operate in the real world where you're required to
be clever, witty and dependent on yourself. I've spent my whole life
depending on a God that doesn't exist. I want to have someone help me
or tell me what to do. I want someone to love me and have my back. I
want someone to manage the things I can't control. Although I know the
truth, I still find myself holding on. Hoping that maybe I'm wrong and
that this God will talk to me face to face. But after many years of
asking, I suppose that's not going to happen.
It's difficult to talk to believers because they don't require
evidence for what they believe. Their fundamental question is do I
believe in God? The fundamental question for me is does God exist? If God
doesn't exist then every other thing based on God existing is
irrelevant, regardless of what I believe. So should I take the pill and enter a
world that can be cold, lonely, uninviting, potentially good but
utterly pointless where I'll be free but miserable. Or should I take the
other pill which keeps me where I am. A place where people act like they
care, I have a purpose and can really make a difference (although I
don't know what my purpose is). Even if I know that whold world is based
on a complete lie.
I wanted to choose to go back to the matrix, but once I found out
it wasn't real, there was no point. I seem to be doomed to live a
miserable, depressed life with no hope for anything different. No matter
what decision I make. Life sucks.
Chicago
IL
Cook
Joined: 9
Left: Still claiming (29)
Was: Presbyterian
Now: Certain but Confused
Converted because: Felt I should do it and get it out the way.
Considering de-conversion because: It's not real
Email: JERALDA at SBCGLOBAL dot NET
Comments
They make you feel guilty for thinking for yourself. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of good people who are christians. No doubt many of these people have been life-long friends to you.
There are many people who come to this site that are now ex-christians. they may be athiests, pagans, new ager's, etc. There is a diverse community on this site. I am sure you will get more comments to your post here. Read them and post your own responses. People here are really friendly.
Of course we get the occasional fundy troll, who can't figure out why we dumped christianity in the first place.
I suggest that you check out some of Nathaniel Brandon's and Ayn Rand's writings. Another website to check is http://www.neo-tech.com They don't have as much of their information on their site as they used to, but what they do have is still worth reading.
Just don't stay depressed. There is life after Christianity despite what the fundies may tell you. Read some of the other extimonies here.
Your need for a belief in magical things, will eventually be replaced by a love for truth.
Hang around on this website and you will begin to see how ridiculous the story about God, impregnating one of his creations, in order to have a child so he can arrange to have it sacrificed to himself, to atone for sins that he created himself. He murders his only son, because he needs a sacrifice. GIVE ME A BREAK. All of the stuff in the Bible in light of today's knowledge is on par with children's fairy tales.
There is a certain clarity of mind that you will aquire, that is superior to the need for mystical belief. You will cherish your sanity more than a security blanket. I think it is a process of growing up mentally. When the fundies come on this site and start their witnessing, I think most of us have true compassion for them, as they struggle with a life style based on mysticism.
Don't stop looking for truth. Contrary to what the post-modern world preaches, truth is absolute. If you seek, oh, you will find. God is faithful to his promises.
Many people on this site have a problem with the Christian church. Hey, i have a problem with most of the Christian church. But I haven't read a single comment that has a problem with the teachings of Jesus. We are not perfect, not even christians. We fail, we hurt people, and we destroy lives. We are human, and sometimes we are self-righteous, and sometimes we are full of hate. Please don't look at me to find God - look at God to find God. At the end of the day, it is just between you and him.
I love your analogy, I'm a big fan of "The Matrix". Please consider, though, that life without god is not a cold, meaningless existence. This is an absolute lie that has been used to keep people in the fold. They want you to believe you are nothing without god, and you can't manage without the direction of a shepherd. Believe in yourself, and you will find that meaning and direction has already been programmed into your system.
My folks died years ago, but my father-in-law is still pretty cut up about it, but he accepts that I must believe what I believe.
Now I'm an 'evangelical atheist' spreading the good news.
People may be shocked, and you may lose some friends. Hey, it's the same as when you have lots of friends when you're rich, only real friends stick with you when the well dries up.
You may be wondering what to replace christianity with, but that's a false question. Christianity is like a big rucksack full of useless rocks. Just put the bag down. There's no other bag you have to carry!
Enjoy your new-found freedom, my friend!
In the comfort of the Western world, it is easy to see how God can be a burden. In the real world, there is work to do, bringing hope and ultimate truth to the suffering. That's where the heart of Christ is, and that's where you'll see God is real.
I am so sorry you got sucked back into god belief. If it makes you feel good, fine, but don't make the ridiculous claims that there are historical facts in the bible verified by archeaology. That is a total lie, and modern archaeology refutes almost everything presented in the bible as truth. No Adam and Eve, no moses, no patriarchs, no Exodus, no United Kingdom, no Solomon's temple, no million man armies. The list is nearly endless. Yeah, there are some cities mentioned that still exist, but so what. Atlanta exists, but I don't think many people think Scarlett O'Hara was real.
What good is bring false hope to anyone doing? If I were suffering or dying with aids, I would rather someone bring me the truth.
Religon loves to prey on the weak and powerless. The atheist doesn't give the sick and hungry a Bible, they give them medicine and food.
Stuart...who asked you? And by the way, the church is not the only organization out there helping AIDS victims...but since you asked...I've been to those places...and you know what? I bet the church is giving those people jobs isn't it? What if instead of going over there and preaching the gospel, you spend your money on getting them food and educating ignorant people on the true nature of the AIDS epidemic. Instead of feeding them false hope that they can be healed, why don't you spend that money on AIDS research? By the way, how much money have you spent on AIDS research? Instead of selling your snake oil, why don't you attempt to make a long lasting effect on these peoples lives. Its easy to sit back in your Western Mindset and think you have the cure to what ails them, but in all reality, its a whole lot easier to give them hope than it is a cure, isn't it? And befoer you say I've made unfounded assumptions about you, look at the plank in your own eye first buddy.
Your comment Mike, when you do your evangelical atheism, do you go into Guguletu, Khayalitsha, or Mitchell's plain? Have you ever been into a small church in Guguletu where 50% of the congregation is is HIV positive and not one member of the congregation has work, and preached your Good News, while they are praising God's goodness with joy in their hearts? refers:
I don't live near those places, but I help support three families in Masiphumulele, and they know fully that my charity is from my heart, not on behalf of some make-believe bloke from a book. My father-in-law thinks my charity is misplaced and will not give a red cent to a 'bergie'. He chases them away telling them he gives his money to his church! I've asked him whether the money ever reaches the people he is so uncharitable towards, but he cannot tell me where it goes. I know where his money goes, his preacher bleeds his church dry to fund his studying for his Master's degree at university. The irony? As soon as he's done, he'll apply for bigger and better churches elsewhere. He's been to the US several times (church expense) in the last while, and I'll bet 2-for-1 that he's negotiating a post there!
I digress. What I really want to say is that these churches offer some respite from the circumstances these people find themselves in, and that's a good thing. But expecting help and charity from some fictitious deity is setting them up for a fall. Charity cannot be sustained indefinitely, making a fool of the giver and a beggar of the receiver. Here in South Africa beliefs play a major role in the spread of HIV. Puritanical attempts to hush talk of sex, instead of screaming from the rooftops. Praying for protection intead of wearing a condom. Endemic belief in Muti or Shaman rituals and medicine, intead of scientific practices. If there were less irrational beliefs, scientific treatments and effective prevention would stand a better chance of success.
How do you know Cape Town so well?
You guys crack me up.
The very existence of this website shows one thing : you need encouragement when you decide to stop being christian... How DUMB is that ???
The thing is, from what I have read : you've never been christian at all.
Being christian is not just like being a drug addict. And obviously that's how you relate to Faith ( if only this term is still something you can understand, I doubt so but anyways...).
One thing prevails in the "why" I'm wasting my time writing a message here : the hatred you feed now against those who believe, against Jesus and against the whole message carried by the Bible.
You are free to live a life without God, but insulting the faith of those who have faith... Really meanless to me.
Oh I know most of those who visit this website might be glad to read another "stupid reaction of a dumb addicted poor narrow minded christian"...
Doesn't matter at all. Obviously none of you guys have been living anything true with God, and if you consider religion as a philosophy, you're allowed to reject it, but God is more than a conception.
Gabriel from France.
When you wonder if you have the strength to do things by yourself, stop and realize that every difficulty that god ever helped you overcome was actually you doing it yourself. You did in the past, and you will do it again in the future. As you have now realized, god was never there when you needed him. All you needed was a bit of faith, and now that you know it was you yourself that achieved those things you have every reason to put your faith in yourself. And that faith in yourself is far more justified and deserved than faith in a mythical god that never actually did anything for you.
Stuart,
You said that nobody has ever said anything against the teachings of Jesus. You have obviously not read very much of this site, or you would know that is not true. How about Luke 14:26 for starters? "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." This is the teaching of an egotistical madman.
Many christians come here and say things along the lines of "Maybe some christians have behaved badly towards you and given you the wrong impression of christianity. The people are fallible but the religion is perfect. Don't judge christianity by the behavior of some of its followers." This just shows that christians have absolutely no understanding of why we left. The christian people are just ordinary humans like us trying to make sense of the world. They will make mistakes and behave badly, just as any other human would. But it is the disgusting philosophy and theology of christianity that drove us away. We could no longer tolerate the lies and deceipt of the christian faith, and we elected to put our faith in ourselves and our fellow humans, rather than in a mystical magician from 2000 years ago.
An Optimist from Durban
Your post is very obnoxious and full of disdain, all I can say is that is very Christian of you. Do you think you are going to get anybody to see your point of view by insulting them and talking down to them like they are dogs? The pessimism and self-loathing in your post is very clear, and I'm sure that your religon has had a lot to do with that. I guess you are assuming that since you are so miserable with a god, it must be that much worse without one.
Okay, then Christianity means being as rude as possible to those who no longer believe in your man-god, at least that's what it apparently means to you.
Thanks for confirming the need for a site to encourage people leaving the worship of a flying un-dead man.
Christian love is just wonderful to behold.
You probably know this already, but what you are describing sounds like Deism. In the U.S., our fundamentalists are trying to hijack our country by convincing us that our founding fathers were Christians, but they were actually mostly Deists. A lot of them actually held Christianity in great contempt. I would recommend Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason" if you aren't already familiar with it.
God is man’s mental concept that he chose to invent so as to give someone something to believe in for a universal answer. The word God is the three letter answer for everything unknown to man. When anything that is unknown to man is questioned, the question is answered by the three letter answer God, by default, thereby the question is answered and it is no longer has to be debated in one’s own mind. Now one must not question any further, questioning any further would be setting one up to question the existence of this imaginary God. We must not ever question the existence of this imaginary God, because you will suffer unending consequences. This God already knows what your motives are and will therefore punish you according to your ulterior motives. In other words you must not ever question the existence of this God, otherwise you will advise this God of your intent to question his existence and he will judge you and punish you according to your works and deeds. So in the end, God is solely the invention and creation of a man, but one must not ever question the existence of this imaginary being, to do so would cause a multitude of different beliefs and religions to spring up all over the world, and certainly no God would ever want that to happen.
Good Luck!
-Jason (jpepin2001@yahoo.com)
Your stupidity cracks me up.
By your own reasoning, the existance of thousands of websites for christianity means that you need a lot more encouragement (read - brainwashing) when you decide to be a christian.
I never thought I'd get this much reaction. Thanks to all that gave support and to those who gave their perspective. What I'm learning is that there is a gap separating what I know from what I should / want to know. I just refuse to fill that gap with just anything. That includes things that are possibly true but don't have enough evidence to support it. So even though the bible may be "unique" or have some truths in it or even make people feel good or change their lives it doesn't make it a fact any more than Santa Clause or Jimmy the Rabbit god (He really does exist). I talked to my pastor recently and I told him that if everyone used faith as the evidence for their claims, then we might as well accept everything everyone says in the world as fact. That includes mental patients, murderers, liars, thieves etc, quack doctors, children who thought they saw the boogie man and drug users. I asked him how do I know that the Bible is the truth? What evidence do I have? He basically said that I should look at the people in the Bible. Analyze their relationships with God and learn how that relates to your life. The summary of all those experiences are there are people who obeyed and believed and God and their are people who did not. Look at their experiences and how they apply to your life and ask yourself Do You believe in God? I replied to him Why isn't the question "Does God exist?" He said that without faith it is impossible to please God." I left there understanding that it doesn't really matter whether I believe or not. I am only a small part of a large web of personal and interpersonal relationships. Everything I do and say has a direct and indirect effect on others on the web and vice versa. Unfortunately, I can't control how or when the results of my actions will strike others or the results of others actions will affect me. People percieve God as the source of those relationships and hope he can be an advocate that protects them from the unseen consequences. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. People still die, people still suffer and some people are still evil. The only possible shelter from these results is wisdom. Meaning that application of facts in each individual life. The only original sin is ignorance so by learning about ourselves and our environment, we have a better chance of managing the results of these delicate relationships. Never, never wil we control them. So I encourage all of you believer and non-believer to seek truth beyond opinion. It is the only way to eliminate conflict. You can't fight over whether or not the sun is hot or rock is hard or bleach is poisonous. But you can fight over whether God exists because no one has or will ever know if it is a fact or not. I will continue to search myself (though I probably will never find what I'm looking for. U2 :) )but it sure does sound good to have something to believe in the meantime. Too bad Santa Clause is only for kids.
However, it is a fact that the CHRISTIAN version of god is a big fraud and a lie.
Welcome to the site. As you can see there are many of us who finally figured out that xianity is a hoax, and a bad one at that.
Freedom IS sweet. The deprogramming process does take time, but as has been previously said, is well worth the journey.
I've a post here. ex-pentecostal preacher, might be of some help.
As you have probably noticed the regular posters here who are exian are well studied and articulate.
Freedom does usually cost us something but freedom is worth the price.
ex-pentecostal preacher
Fred
I believe that there may, or may not be, a "God," or creative force at the center of all that exists. It is possible to accept the existence of God, without believing in christianity, obviously. For me, belief in a "higher power" is a belief that leads me to continually better myself as a person. If there is always something "higher," or "greater," then I have something to strive for. This "greater power," being the central force within all "creation," would have, in some way, "knowledge" of all that exists, even transcending time, according to most religions. If this "source" were "eternal," then it would make sense that this source would transcend time. Those mystics, such as Christ, Mohamed, Krishna, or Buddha, drew nearer to this source and anyone who would "follow after" them, would also do the same. In their teachings, one might find "the way."
Without going any further, I'd like to say at this point that I wish to show you that you may believe as you wish in regards to "God." You've seen christianity for what it is and that's what's most important.
"Leaving the faith" takes time. It's not always easy to leave religion. I'm glad I left christianity. I'm a lot happier without it.
Could someone point me to evidence which shows historical inaccuracy of the Bible ?
I am familiar with books such as Case for Christ, which provide evidence to support historical accuracy of the New Testament, but I would like to see what has been written regarding proving that inaccuries exist in the Bible. Previous posters said "the Bible is lies" but didn't post any proof.
The New Testament is a collection of historical documents -- testimonies, letters, .etc. I would like some evidence, some deep, detailed evidence that supports proving that it is inaccurate. And PLEASE don't go showing a handful of APPARENTLY inconsistent quotes. That is about as convincing as a Christian convincing you of something with a handful of quotes. If there were real accounts given by four different people it would be natural to expect some minor differences between them. It would actually discredit them if there were identical in every regard.
Thank you.
Most Christians here discredit Christianity largely by their lack of love and their visciousness. It is embarassing. It is evident that people posting here ( those giving testimonies ) are seeking truth. What more can one ask, other than to love and to seek truth ?
Then again, many posters here, exchristian ones, discredit themselves by their closedmindedness and simplistic statements.
No side can win.
But whoever is humble maybe knows the only truth, that we don't know the truth.
So... we can choose to react to not knowing the truth in two ways:
1) Believe in a creator and acknowledge reliance on that creator.
2) Not believe in a creator
I have struggled with the same aspects of Christianity that you all have.
However, I believe that the ultimate truth involves love, freedom and humility, and I'm not convinced that true Christianity fails in these regards.
Thank you for your quick reaction, it is exactly what I hoped to find here...
Please forgive my lack of love, but receive my anger concerning the section of this so-called website showing pictures and images insulting Jesus, who is, indeed, my God and savior.
Yes, those words don't mean anything to you anymore, but as I said before, you have never experienced a true intimate relationship with the One who loves you anyways...
You say that my post is very "christian" ? I will tell you this :
I was born in a christian family, then turned away from church-life while being a teenager, not because of God but because of PEOPLE.
I was, like you, disgusted by the behavior and sweet talkings of those pretending to be humble christians but living as if they were Kings... Not considering the world around...
But I PERSONALLY met Jesus Christ, whether you believe it or not, I would say : doesn't matter, cause it is just the Truth.
No brainwashing in that madamehel : I was alone and nobody to push or explain what was happening.
What you here ALL talk about is religion, and believe it or not, I hate religion too. Religion kills faith.
Religion is the reign of men upon other men using fear and manipulation.
My point of view is different, because I LIVE something different.
You all seem intelligent, and that's a good thing guys.
Here is what I saw while going through the website :
- most of you were raised in RELIGION
- most of you felt like it was a LIE
- most of you talk about MIND, HUMANISM, REASON, UNDERSTANDING THINGS...
But God is far more than a conception as I said.
Your motivation was right : get away from a block of concrete, reaching out for TRUTH and REALITY.
Unfortunately, the reign of Humanism and Reason offered you a door at the opposite side of the room where you were... Too bad. Believing in Jesus is not only a religion, it is an experience.
I never talk about religion, and the reason why I wrote my first message was because of the hatred and "blasphemes" I found in the "art" section.
You say you are "de-converted", I say you are deceived.
You say I am stupid, I say you are ignorant.
And that's sad.
Now, be assured I will leave you alone and not waste more time here. Some of my friends told me it was pointless to write here. I dunno if they're right or not, what I know is :
God is real no matter if you think it is a Lie. Jesus died and rose from the dead, it is a fact and I see it in my life everyday, and there's no self-conviction into that...
If you really seek the truth, you will find it nowhere but in the Bible. The love of God is no lie. The price Jesus paid is no legend. And when I look around, humanism doesn't seem a solution...
My country sacrified religion but also faith at the altar of the God REASON in 1791... Humanism reigns here... the Philosophers of the Lights period ( end of 18th century ) are shown as being the leaders of TRUTH...
Nonsense when you see the despair of my nation folks.
France is the first consumer in Europe of anti-depressive medicines.
France is the first country in terms of suicide rates in Europe.
France was, a few days ago, in fire because of riots and popular rebellion.
Oh... You will say all of this doesn't have anything to do with Christianity...
Believe me : it has EVERYTHING to do with the silence of Christianity.
The only answer to this world's pain and despair is Jesus : do I sound too Christian for you ?
If you were truly seeking the TRUTH in your lives, with all of you hearts, you will not remain stuck in a new concrete-block called MIND and REASON.
But because you've been deceived, because Satan, let's name Him, has turned your mind upside-down, you think there's no answer at all in the Christian faith...
You're free to choose, that's a fact. But no need to piss on christian's fish-sign, or insulting the very person of Jesus Christ.
This was my last message, because I will not waste more time... But did I waste my time ??
Good bye y'all. Hope you will find the truth and really be set free.
Gabriel.
Now whether you want to associate this with something else other than the rule of atheism is up to you. But come out to France someday and spend a few days in a French university, and talk with the students. Or for that matter take any group of French people and talk with them for a couple hours. Chances are you'll find many are struggling with x amount of doubts, fears, worries, and many other things of which France seems to have a special brand.
Nothing to do with God? I think not. France is one of the most depressing places I've been to, and I've been lots of places. It's also rejected Christianity in a massive way. Coincidence?
I'm not promoting organized religion here -- I despise that label as well -- just the existence of a God, and my personal opinion, atheism is not all it's cracked up to be. Why is it not intellectually acceptable to believe in the existence of an absolute higher being? And while I'm at it, I'll ask another question that has been bugging me for months -- in what way does the rejection of organized religion or even God give you license to slam other people? The ironic thing is that people in France will often reject Christianity because the church has been so intolerant, and yet those who profess open-mindedness are so blatantly intolerant of anyone practicing religion, i.e. the student syndicated promoting tolerance and decrying the opening of prayer rooms in the dorms, etc.
Here are a few quick articles Lee Salisbury allowed me to post on this site. After checking those out, check out the Infidels.org website, you'll be reading online books on the subject for weeks.
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/03/historys-troubling-silence-about-jesus.php
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/03/biblical-infallibility-or-mental.php
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/03/did-israels-exodus-from-egypt-actually.php
Lee Salisbury is a former bible school teacher, pentecostal minister, and conference speaker in the US, Europe, and Africa. He resigned the ministry in 1986 and for years agonized over various biblical errors and contradictions. He eventually concluded that "faith is incompatible with integrity, the latter being of greatest import". He is the Cable TV Series Host for Freethought Forum.
I had just about given up on the French until I read your post. Now I want to go there.
If you were full of love and enlightment, like you claim, it would be apparent in your posts. But I have seen nothing but arrogance and hate in you, if your cliams of salvation were true it would be apparant to others besides yourself.
Belief in a God is comforting - and confronting the difficulty and passion and struggle of humanity after being clothed with the "it will all be good in the end" Christianity world-view is daunting.
However, perhaps French athiests are depressed because they have not found a way to deal with the deep meaning and preciousness of human life. Just because you don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean that you can't search for meaning and purpose. One has to be proactive in finding it - and it is difficult to do that in modern, fast paced, individualistic culture.
Still one of the lies that I believed was that w/o Christ there was nothing. But in my personal experience, when I considered committing suicide because I was so depressed that I couldn't live in the Christian box, I realized that there was no one who would keep me from killing myself. No one who would answer prayer. No one who would comfort me -- except me.
If Jesus didn't show up at this critical time, I wondered, how could I count on him. Then I thought about all of the people who suffer and die in the world. I thought about the little girls in India who are forced into temple prostitution, or the millions of Jews who died in the Holocaust or the women who are mutilated, killed and eaten in the Congo -- how many of them must have cried out to their Creator for help and welfare -- and died miserably anyway. What use is it to believe in "Christ" if he never shows up? What is the difference in believing in Christ and believing in the Easter bunny? They have the same practical impact in real life - it seems to me.
Christianity also has the added benefit of segregating people, of closing belief, of making it difficult for people depedant upon it to think and function independantly. It warps a view of reality because reality becomes what you "can't see" Well if I can't see it, if I can't touch it, if it doesn't extend beyond some subjective emotional high, what makes it real?
For me, it makes sense that any belief system should also maintain some kind of intuitive logical connection with the reality through which we move. So if a belief system tells me that I have tendancies to be selfish - well, that is entirely consistent with my personal experience. However, when I look at the world and notice that there is no evidence of some deus ex machina helping men or doing anything other than what man does through his own efforts and strivings - then the idea of a personal God (let alone one as specific as Jesus Christ) strains belief. Now, if I look at my church friends and find that they are dysfunctional relationally, can't deal with their sexuality, are close minded and just jerks, well, that doesn't bode to well for my views of Christianity. And finally, if I notice that Christanity happens to work for the rich and privileged - who mistake their 'answers to prayer' for acts of God, instead of the benefits that come from their position in society or race or economic class, or else its a crutch for the poor who have little else to cling to (and that ends up not helping them much out of their situation anyway) then, well Christianity looks like a waste of time for the average person. Better to learn about the world we live in and how to function as complete, sane human beings that waste time thinking about so-called Jesus Christ - Saviour. He's done such a great job hasn't he?
Finally, as far as there being a "point" to writing on this site for Christians - the whole supposition of such a comment shows the flaw of Christian view of human relationships. See, we share on this site to learn from eachother, to discuss, to encourage (because years of brainwashing can be a doozy to recover from)and to hear points of view. We relate with other human beings. So dear Christian you should be happy to learn about something that challenges your own, confined world view. Maybe you will grow. But if you just come to talk "at" people, to convert, to condescend to the crowd of non-believers, to cast your pearls and retreat to your blessed fellowship, then there really is no point, is there?
That's just the tip of the iceberg. The bible is a mess. If any christians want an example of this, well, hmmm...let me see, oh, yes. How about this one?
According to the christian church, the human race is "sinful" and born that way. We go through our lives committing "sin," which is any action or word that displeases "God." This may include and is not limited by, stealing, killing, committing adultery, or pre-marital sex. There are many other "sins" as well.
God hates us for this, and so will banish us into eternal torment, worse than any torment imaginable to us. Once again, that is, ETERNAL torment.
At some point God comes up with a plan of "salvation," and sends "His only begotten Son" to die the worst death imaginable in those times, death by crucifixion.
Anybody who "accepts" Jesus will instead go to "heaven," which is eternal paradise, essentially. To "accept Jesus," is to accept him as your "Lord and Saviour." Again, it is by "accepting" Jesus that one is "saved," from eternal torment. The moment one does so, one is "saved." One may "accept Jesus" on ones deathbed with ones dying breath and be "saved."
Now, what does it mean to those who live beyond "accepting Jesus?"
Apparently, one must "walk with Jesus," "repenting of sin." Why?
If one is "saved," then what is the purpose of "walking with Jesus?" Why the "repentance?"
How is that the devil somehow has the power to steal souls, and so is constantly attempting to do so by causing us to commit "sin," yet, if one is "saved," then the devil has no power over them, yet, this means nothing to a non-christian? The only person that the "devil" has any power over, is the christian who believes he exists! This means, that the devil is in actuality, a threat only to christians! He tries to steal christian souls, not non-christians! However, the christian soul is "bought!?!" Why should the christian even concern him or her self with this "devil?" What's the point of his existence? One is either "saved," or "unsaved." Period.
Is one "saved" from this "devil," or from ones actions?" How could it be that one is "saved" from ones own actions, when one chooses ones own actions? If I decide not to "sin," why wouldn't I "go to heaven?" For that matter, why doesn't this "God," in whom "all things are possible" just take a persons soul directly to "heaven" when they die, regardless of whether or not they are "saved?" According to the bible, we suffer through this life a great deal, and why? To die and burn in ETERNAL suffering? I do not believe that. Remember, the "damnation" came before the "salvation."
Why are there so many denominations of christianity, all based on the same book?
If one merely "accepts Jesus," and is "saved," this being the only way into "heaven," then how do you explain these statements by Christ in the gospels?
"Whosever keepeth my saying will never see death?"
"Woe unto ye, scribes and pharisees, for ye have shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men. Ye neither go in, nor suffer ye to allow others to enter therein."
"Choose not the way that leads unto death. Choose the way that leads to life eternal."
All that's just for starters. I've got to go, but I'd like to point out one more thing, the cruelty and barbarism of the christian "God," or "biblegod," in dreaming this whole thing up, from the suffering that we are born into, to the unimaginable torment that awaits us, to the horrible death on the cross put upon HIS ONLY "SON."
Please don't tell me that he "died for my sins." Apparently, if one understands christianity, he only died for those who "accept him." Why do christians tell people that he died for their sins, when it isn't true?
The doctrine of "salvation by grace" is absurd.
I'll be back.
That's a very interesting hypothesis that you have there: i.e. that France's (perceived) malaise is a result of rejecting god. I'm wondering if you've thought much about how you might establish a causal relationship (if, indeed, there is even a correlation, which is really only based on your subjective impression).
Here, this may help... Are you aware of the fact that global warming is caused by the decline of pirates? Don't believe me? Check out this web site:
http://www.seanbonner.com/blog/archives/001857.php
Given that the pirate theory is backed by more empirical evidence than yours, I think you have a ways to go. Good luck.
Gabriel said: "You say I am stupid, I say you are ignorant."
Did you know your fish-sign used to depict a female anatomy? Christians "stole" this symbol and made it their own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthus
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm
Gabriel, before you make further IGNORANT remarks, please educate yourself.
Cheers
trenchcoatsparrow wrote:
"The ironic thing is that people in France will often reject Christianity because the church has been so intolerant, and yet those who profess open-mindedness are so blatantly intolerant of anyone practicing religion, i.e., the student syndicated promoting tolerance and decrying the opening of prayer rooms in the dorms, etc."
I went to her web page, and she says she is an American, living in France, studying German, and she visits her family in Sweden. Her major interest seems to be the Bible.
I am wondering if she is not seen as a spoiled little American girl who wants to inflict her Christian fundamentalism upon the French student body, who are obviously much more sophisticated than her.
After all they are the race that brought us "VOLTAIRE"
Could be. It's hard to tell what she's thinking from what little she's written.
She also said of the French people "Chances are you'll find many are struggling with x amount of doubts, fears, worries, and many other things of which France seems to have a special brand."
Even if that's so, it needn't imply anything more than the fact that they are generally more willing to question and to contemplate (following Voltaire!). It could be that THAT characteristic leads to a greater tendency to reject religion; i.e. a causal relationship that is *opposite* of what trenchcoatsparrow posits. Of course, both are pure speculation in the absence of any legitimate statistics. I merely throw it out as a plausible hypothesis to consider.
I too personally met Jesus Christ, if what you mean is that you had a powerful conversion experience. If you mean he walked up to you and shook your hands one day, well I haven't had that happen. After my powerful experience there was NO ONE who could tell me that I had not met the Almighty up close and personal. I held strong to that opinion for nearly three three decades. I was absolutely convinced - I KNEW - that I had met the MAN and HE had shown HIMSELF directly to me.
Then after 5 years of gruelling study, using my logical mind rather than my emotional feelings, I finally came to realize that I had deceived myself.
Religious experiences are a dime-a-dozen. They aren't evidence of reality and they don't prove a thing. Religious people from all kinds of religious backgrounds, all over the world. testify of religious experiences that supposedly "PROVE" the validity of their beliefs. Every religion has hundreds of "true believers" claiming to have a personal experience with their particular deity or force or whatever.
Of course the Christian dismisses the experiences of others as false (I did it myself, many times), or as tricks of the devil, or just plain mistaken. Other religions tend to dismiss Christian religious experiences as false as well.
You had an experience and it probably makes you feel important or special or gives you a sense of purpose or something else.
Regardless of what your experience gives you emotionally, it doesn't PROVE that what you experienced was a flying undead man-god who is your personal friend. The human mind is a complex thing, and experiences, especially emotional experiences, are subject to all sorts of error and are best interpreted through the filter of reason.
Good luck, and goodbye.
Then
St. John 1:18 " No man hath seen God at any one time"
So who are we supposed to believe?
I don't believe that one may accurately judge one nation against another.
It may be that we here in the USA are, overall, happier, I suppose, due to the fact that we are such a wealthy nation. That is, assuming that we are happier here.
I've nver before heard of the misery of France.
Christians have come here before and lied to us...
Well, the way to win, is to not play the game, a la the movie "War Games"...
Nathan, if you wan't me to discredit something you say, just give me an argument, and I will find an alternative and viable way of seeing it differently, and with equal justification...
Nathan: "Could someone point me to evidence which shows historical inaccuracy of the Bible ?"
Isaiah lived ~600BCE, the book of Isaiah, states a child would be born and named Emmanuel, a (mortal) messiah for his time that would bring his people peace... Matthew refers to Isaiah, as the birth of a man-god, in the NT, the virgin birth specifically... Point, is, if Jesus was born in Isaiah's time, which "is" reflected in the book of Isaiah, then, the book of Matthew is "evidently", a lie, or a contextual error... in either case, the birth of "Jesus" to "save" the world of Original Sin, as a man-god born of a virgin is unfounded... therefore, there is the evidence, and its in the "same" book that claims its beyond error... therefore, the only way out of this little dilemna is for someone to declare that their bible is "evidently" inaccurate...
The bible is its "own" evidence, that its errant... throw the bible down as errant, as a cultural reflection in writing, and it becomes no more "Righteous" and "Better" than any "other" belief system, with historical documents, i.e., gnostic writings, Jewish Talmudic writings, etc., etc...
But, when the replay was shown, it was obvious that the player was out of bounds. So, the coach asked for a time out and to take the referee's decision to a "higher court", the instant replay referee.
The higher up reviewed the play and said he was in fact out of bounds. So, even though the play looked good and the two referees on the field had the faith it was an inbound fact, they had to look to someone with the absolute truth of the fact's that where seen on the field.
All this teaches me is look for the facts. Sometimes what you have faith in is overturned. But, it's overturned by a higher authority. Nevertheless, it is based on observation of what actually is.
Maybe life is just physical and natural and is based on observation.
You also said "A place where people act like they
care, I have a purpose and can really make a difference (although I
don't know what my purpose is)". Realize that a higher purpose is just the treat held by Christianity just out of reach. You're told about this purpose that you'll be given in order to trick you into drawing more into Christianity, but you'll never really have a higher purpose. A life chasing a fake purpose is more pointless than a life on being honest to youself and being free from the mind-control of cults like Christianity.
We have churches on every corner in America, grand massive churches, of every denomination and belief, and are building more every day, our air waves are being spewed by religious propaganda (preaching)24/7, and roadside Billboards and is taught as pure fact, and that anyone that does not believe as they are going to Hell. Do you hear this everyday as we all do?
America a Christian Nation? Just take a look at most any newspaper in the US and you will see where people are being shot and killed in every city, every day. Oh yeah, did I also mention that it's getting to be a fad now for one to chop up or kill either their wife or girlfriend. Even preachers are killing their wives and embezzling the church funds. Also we have drunk drivers killing innocent victims every day, and we have a slogan "Don't Drink and Drive" but you can buy any amount of alcohol at 99% of the convenience stores where you drive in to get your gasoline. Then we have the ABC stores, Alcohol Beverage Control, where you can buy up to one gallon of liquor, or if you need more, you can easly get a permit to buy more, and you can start drinking as soon as you get in your car. Alcohol is also sold in practically in every supermarket. And then we have home and car break-ins on a daily basis, we have to be sure to lock our cars and our homes constantly and still they break in through the windows, most homes in the major cities have steel bars fastened all around their homes, recently a woman was burned to death inside of her own home, because she could not get out of her bedroom window because of the burglar bars. Oh yes, we live in a kind and christian nation alright, we have a president that is guided daily by the will of God, and we have these spiritual leaders that keep our society in religious check. We also have the homeless and we also have Billionares, whom could share the wealth a little and there would be no more homeless, of course the government could share the wealth with it's own people, but they would rather give our tax money to other countries, trying to sway those people into thinking that we are a christian nation.I do not see much difference in France as compared to the US, over here the majority pretend to be religious and spiritual, although there are some of us that do not, and most of us are shunned by the self-righteous believers and we can see the hypocrisy of religion, and then there are those that do not want to see the fakeness of religion and prefer to pretend. The US functions as if there is no God nor if there ever was, Americans just pretend that they are religious, but that is all anyone can do, is pretend that there is a God.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43189
I'm french too, and all in your reaction concerning salvation shows very well that you missed something very important : you didn't understand that salvation is a thing that can die... In fact, it begins to die when you really want to stop your relationship with Jesus from your own decision, or that you want to make your own life without him.
What I mean is that when you walk with Jesus, your relationship with him helps you to understand what should be your behaviour with other peoples, and even with some embarrassing situations.
If you only say "Well, I've done it, I'm saved by Jesus, that's finished now" and that after you want to choose your way of life from your own, you are on a wrong way...Human peoples can be one day submitted in front of choices that can be traps, because Devil wants you to fall inside. If you don't say to yourself "Ok, then Jesus will show me what I have to do in that special case", you will probably make a mistake.
He helps to make great decisions...And remember : nothing is acquired forever...EVEN SALVATION... That's why you must walk with the only one that wants you to be happy.
To all others intervenants : When I read all your purposes, I clearly see the Greek's past spirit that was based on material reality and philosophy.
Did you know that a demon has a odd name? He is called RELIGIOSITY...Find in a dictionnary what it really means...You will find something interessant...
You all say : "If God exists, why all those problems emerge on planet Earth? Please, stop to ask this fake question...The true question has always been : "We knew what God wanted for us, but why did we let all of this cruelty and anger from our hearts happen on Earth?"
Think about it...I don't want to hurt anybody...I just want you to know the truth.
JESUS CHRIST RULES!!!
HELL SUCKS!!!
Some christian churches will teach that it is not necessary to "accept Jesus" twice, and in fact, to do so is to "tempt the Lord thy God," which one must not do, according to scripture.
As I've pointed out before on this website, it seems to me that a christian is "saved/not saved," according to christian doctrine.
There's just too much nonsense in christian theology.
WTF. Your religion is one of the screwiest of all of the major religions. I hope you see that, too.
Meanwhile, if you come to a website called "Ex-christian.net," don't expect to be able to convince us that your ridiculous nonsensical religious beliefs are anything other than the pure bunk that they appear to be.
I believe that the Jesus story was invented to soothe people's fears in the time of death and being sickly, having been told of a Heavenly here-after, a place of comfort to be with the almighty forgiving caring unjudgemental Jesus, the make believe mental placebo.
Jesus rode over here in a book, under the arm of a pilgrim with a Bible in one hand and a gun in the other, telling the Indians, believe in our God or we will kill you. Had the Indians had guns, the pilgrims would all be dead now and the Indians would still be here dominating this land, without the need of a whiteman's God or Jesus.
The Bible is purely a hoax and a scam and a man's imaginable dream.
There cannot possibly exist a God as ignorant and stupid as the one portrayed in the Buy-Bull
to slingshot :
What did you understand about what I wrote before? I only told that God doesn't want anybody to follow him absolutly. He just wants us to follow him freely, by our own decision. When I see some people saying that we should be forced to follow absolutly Jesus, I know that those people just CAN'T REALLY be christians...
Little story : a 60 years-old father told her 38 years-old daughter not to go in a place, because it looked pretty much dangerous...The daughter said that she wanted to do whatever seemed her good, even if she heard some horrible reports from that suburbs. So she went in that place where some friends of her waited her. Later, the poor father received a call from police, learning him that her daughter died with some oh her friends in horrible circumstances ( rapes, violence...). Little question : was the father had to force her daughter not to go in the place? Or was the daughter right when she said "I do what I want"? Unfortunatly, the result is here : death... When you choose your won way, God is sad, but he is not a dictator. He coould decide to force everybody to follow Him, but he prefers let us choose.
Last but not least to all: theology and religiosity kills true faith... Did you ever try to really speak to God? Or will you all just flee behind the sentence "God does not exist, that's all"? It is really easy to spit on people who have faith, but there's no courage and desire to go on seeking truth...
Have you ever studied Buddhism or Islam, Manu? Have you ever studied any other religions besides the non-sensical christian faith?
Manu, what do you believe? Where exactly does the "walk with Jesus" lead to, and how is that one arrives at that destination? Must a soul be "perfected" before entering "heaven," and where does that leave the person who "accepts Jesus" on their deathbed with their dying breath? According to the church, anybody who "accepts Jesus" is going to heaven! The church has ALWAYS taught this! Whether or not one "walks with Jesus" is irrelevant! One is saved, again, for having once "accepted Jesus." Period.
You say that it is possible to "lose ones salvation." Are you a christian, or aren't you? Are you "saved," or aren't you? What is the purpose of "walking with Jesus?" What is the purpose of "repentance?"
It is this sort of theology that drove me away from christianity.
As I've pointed out before on this website, this is a site for ex-christians. Some here believe that God exists, some debate, some disbelieve it. It is christianity that we do not believe in here.
Hi man! Listen something important : first, you have to understand that if I had to wait to be totally sinless, I could wait until my death to follow God. What I really want to explain is that if somebody tells "I'll wait my last hours on that planet to accpet Jesus", be sure that this person is a cheater. Why? Because it means that he is conscious of his sins, and that he knows that it is really bad. You can fool others or yourself, but not God.
About the sentence "salvation is a thing that can die.", I only wanted to say that you can count on salvation ONLY IF YOU GO ON PRACTICING IT in your life. If a person wants to choose suddenly a bad way ( thief, murderer, raper...), he kills the salvation that Jesus gave him.
About the sentence "Just "accept Jesus" and you're "saved." That's all!"..That is absolutly not right! IT CAN'T BE ALL!!! It's like love! You must maintain it!
You say "According to the church, a person is "saved" for having once "accepted Jesus." That's right. But God is not a yo-yo that you can play with...
What do you think about Jesus when he said that some people that have spiritual authorities won't go in Paradise, just because they did only what their own hearts wanted, and that they didn't followed what God wanted, making troubles with horribles results? Even if they do miracles in Jesus'name, but that their hearts are empty, or conceited, or without compassion for people, they'll be terribly judged...
Concerning salvation by grace, it only works if you accept it...If I have somthing you want, but that you do not deserve, I can only give it you by grace.
God is very easy to understand, and very easy to follow. This is the human race that complicated its own understanding of who God is...
Last but not least : if somebody says "I accept Jesus", but don't want to walk with him by practicing what Jesus preached ( compassion, help for poor people, or so), I can't believe that person is a true christian.
MANU
"But God is not a yoyo you can play with..." What a crack up! Actually your gawd, in the form of his son-self Jeebus, ia a dress up doll to play with on normalbobsmith.com. I recommend the site to all and his hate mail and responses are priceless.
Madbuni, good to hear from you! I hoped you were still around!
Happy Holidays everyone from this athiest fighting the unholy war against Christmas! Ho, Ho, Ho!
carol
LOL. Your theology is a joke.
You agree that the church has always taught that one "accepts Jesus" and is "saved." In other words, by performing the christian ritual of "accepting Jesus" one is guaranteed a place in heaven forever. You then go on to say that "God is not a yo-yo to play with." How do you distinguish between the two? If a person is "saved," then it is absolutely true that they may go on to commit "sin," in fact,and christians certainly do exactly that, needing Jesus' death on the cross in order to be "saved," and STILL go to heaven! Once again, how do you distinguish between being "saved," (absolutely,) and "playing with God like a yo-yo? It seems to me as though it is christians who "play with God like a yo-yo!"
Before that, you said that "Just accept Jesus and you're 'saved,'" And, "That is absoluetly not right!" You then, again agree that the church has always taught that if one "accepts Jesus," then they're "saved." On one hand, you say "That is...not right," That is one "accepts, Jesus," then they're "saved." On the other hand, you agree that "the church has always taught this." It seems as though you disagree with the church. Maybe now you understand why I don't believe in christianity.
Christianity is wacky.
The church has always taught that by simply mouthing the words in "accepting Jesus," one is "saved." Period. It is absolute. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Fair Dink'm mate why be unhappy when you can be happy.You can be happy can't you.?
You have a purpoe in life.Life it self.All you have to do is love and you will do well.
Things could be worse.You could have been a mormon.And then not only would you have been sucked in.You would have had to give your undies back as well.
What is the difference between a christian and a muslem.A christian gets laid to rest and moslem gets laid to death 72 virgins and all.
I understand. I have been an atheist for many years but have not "come out" about it, either. Sure, I'm conflicted about that, but we each have to walk in our own shoes.
In my case, my wife and M-I-L are lazy-assed christians and don't often go to church. (Whoo-hoo!) Nevertheless, they would go hyper-righteous on me to save their souls if I were to be open about having no belief in the unnatural.
Seriously, I just want you to know that I understand the pressure of being deeply embedded in a culture that has become alien. If I stated my atheism openly, the christians in my life would feel compelled ("led of the Spirit") to try to save me. F*** that!
An atheist in the midst is a threat, regardless. It's the faith that means everything to believers. Truly, "God" is the BELIEF in god.
We often tolerate a great deal to preserve the family life dear to us. If I were as involved in active christianity as you seem to be, however, I would not be able to tolerate it.