An inferior person who needs to be crushed by God

Sent in by John D

For the past two years or so, I've experienced intense bouts of anger, hatred, and depression all wrapped together into one big nasty mix. Yes, I am an ex-christian. I know and am glad the most feared, sadistic, tyrant talked about so much in public circles is not a real being. I no longer have to worry about the things he might do to me if I dare to disobey him, and this was indeed a great relief for me just as much the time of my deconversion as it is for me today.

Yet I still feel extreme bouts of rage and depression due to the fact now that I am an ex-christian, my family and relatives see me as an inferior person who needs to be "crushed." While I am no where close to being some kind of superstar prodigy, I've been a relatively responsible and motivated individual. Despite this, my family and relatives still treat me as if I am the lowest person on the planet. I am really starting to believe they want to kill me, not literally but psychologically.

They call me a young and foolish idolater who will realize the stupidity of my ways one day when God comes for me. They see any and all unfortunate events that happen to me as divine wrath for my heresy. The bad things which happen to other family members who are Christian are just seen as the devil attacking them instead or just pure coincidence.

For example, once when the motor in my car was ruined probably due to making a mis-shift, my relatives believed it occurred because God was punishing me for not following him, and that this was only the beginning of his wrath upon me. Then the following summer, I foolishly posted a message and picture about George Bush on a message board, which resulted in the Secret Service seizing my computer for a hard drive forensics test. The Secret Service interpreted the post as threatening even though I didn't mean it that way. Thankfully, I was only investigated by them and never charged with anything. My family actually cheered the fact that this happened to me. They are extreme right-wing Republicans who said that I hate George Bush because I hate God, and God used the Secret Service to break my will to resist the Lord. No, I am not kidding, they really said this and actually believe it.

I also have gotten sick feelings in my stomach when I receive Left Behind novels from my family. The stuff contained in those books is worse than Mein Kempf. So I guess what they are trying to tell me by giving me these books is that God will cleanse the Earth of the subhuman unbelievers (anyone who isn't a Christian Republican) and finish us off by throwing all of us in a big lake of fire to be tortured for eternity.

Then my "loving Christian" family members send me obnoxious Focus on the Family tracts and write me things implying that atheists and gays aren't real American citizens.

Lastly, when I'm around these fundies, they use all sorts of cruel mindgames like using their young, brainwashed kids as puppets to say nasty, mean spirited comments about how deceived I am, and how they will be all be praying for me. Then they lay judgmental Bible quotes on my belongings when I am not looking.

I could just go on and on about the negative experiences I have had with my relatives in just the past couple of years since I deconverted from Christianity. While they haven't physically harmed me, they have harmed me mentally and emotionally with their psychological games and condemnation. Some people really do treat you as a whole different class of person when you reject their religious beliefs. When I was a Christian, I was never treated like this. I would like to know if anyone else had these types of experiences with Christian family members or relatives?

32 comments:

eejay said...

The answer to your question is 'yes'. My experiences were quite a long time ago, but the same sorts of things happened to me when my mom was still alive. I used the get the tracts placed in my belongings, my bedroom annointed with oil, exorcisms, the whole nine yards. All I can say is that things will get better for you, but you have to stand your ground. I don't know how old you are, but if you still are in your parents house, it may not get better until you are out. I can say that it is much easier today to find and meet people who share your sentiments than when was going through this in the 70's. This site should help you realize that you are not all by yourself. I wish I'd had something to lean on back then. But, really I've been there. BTW, I think that's a hoot about the Bush thing. I heard something about that. Sorry you got in trouble, but I despise the bastard too.

Jackie said...

You could do what my husband did to his parents... fuck 'em! They actually disowned him 1st but he is making no effort to reclaim a relationship with them. They would do the same crap to him. We have a little boy and refuse to subject him to that kind of negativity and hate. Everybody deserves a home of love and acceptance. If it's not with your blood relatives, it is possible to have a "family" with people that aren't. I don't believe in family ties. If your own flesh and blood treats you worse than a stranger or even a criminal they are family and don't deserve to have you in their lives.
Best of luck

xrayman said...

Hey John D,

What a literal tradgedy your family life has become. I was visiting my church going mother the last couple days, and thankfully she is a very liberal love and accept everybody Christian. My atheism just isn't an issue any more than it would be an issue if someone in our family were gay. My mom said her pastor can't stand George Bush. Imagine that.

My mom's God is a damn nice guy, but your parent's God seems to be a total asshole. I just can't comprehend living with that bullshit. I too think you should stand your ground and perhaps lay low for a while. I'll bet eventually they will eventually come around. In the mean time find like minded people who are going through or have gone through the same sort of situation. This website is a damn good place to start.

Astreja said...

John, welcome!

I'm going to give you the same advice that I give to people recently out of an abusive relationship...

...No contact, no contact, no contact!

If you're still living with any of these people... Get out of there at the first possible opportunity.

If you've already left, return mail unopened. Change your phone number to an unlisted one. Ditto for your e-mail address, and any other channels that they normally use to contact you.

In short... Drop off their radar and start working on a new life that doesn't include them in any way.

And look around for a good secular counsellor who can teach you to deal with the anger and depression.

Gabriel said...

Hi John,

First off, I want to say that you are an excellent writer. And it is very easy to tell that your family is heavily steeped in fundamental Christianity! Focus on the Family, Left Behind, little kids leaving bible verses to hopefully "bring you back into the fold!"

Keep your head up John. Stay motivated as you already are. Your success (however you define success) will serve as a testimony that Christianity is not the absulute answer to life.

I was excommunicated from my church for my "heresy." And while it was nearly the "unpardonable" sin while in seminary to vote for a Democrat, I can't say that I have ever been investigated by the Secret Service for speaking out or writing against George W. Bush! I am very much looking forward to going to the polls this upcoming eletion and proudly voting for a liberal Democrat! It's great to have you here, you are not alone.

Gabe said...

This is Gabe,

I posted my last comment in the name of "gabriel" because I forgot my Google account username and password. I have it straightened out now!

Gabe said...

By the way,

If any of you have a Myspace account, my address is http://www.myspace.com/Gabe856
We all know it can be hard to find fellow skeptics to talk to, so I would love to build a network of my fellow skeptic brethren and sisters!

See you there!

Anonymous said...

Oh you poor guy...so much for Christian love..yeah right! My husband and I are in our early 40's and after a lifetime of catholicism have decided we just don't want to go there anymore. My whole life I have felt broken and guilty, and I've had enough. We still believe - but in a creator who loves us as we are and doesn't demand the impossible from us. Anyway, we have started getting a bit of crap off my Dad, who makes a point of calling when we should be at church to check up on us, and tells us what poor examples we are to our 4 lovely kids. I can tell you, they are better off without all that catholic guilt!
Good luck my friend - as they say, you can pick your friends but you can't pick your family

billybee said...

Hi John,

You are like a new branch that is splitting off from the family "tree".
I'll presume that the roots of faith run deep through your heritage. Your "mutation" away from the norm is strange and threatening to your family.Some of them may even believe that the ideas you have adopted pose a potentially fatal threat of destruction to the entire group.

Their actions show that they are dead serious about this shit. Brace yourself for a bumpy ride....

You are the first of a "new variation" in your family lineage. We are all rooting for your survival.

(ps- hi to xrayman)

THE ACE said...

John: You wrote an excellent article, and I wish I could be there with you to offer my sympathy and support. I come from a long line of fundamentalists and
evangelicals and I had to go through the brainwashing too. Luckily, I left home at 18 to start my radio career, and didn't
start to question my beliefs until
I was in my mid 20's, and had been on my own for quite a while.

I hope I'm not insulting your family, but they sound all too typical to me as Christians. They
will claim to follow a God that is all about love and understanding, then use the most unloving and
hateful techniques to get you to
"come back to God." And will see
no hypocrisy or irony in what they
are doing.

If you still live at home, I'm afraid, as Betty Davis once noted,
"fasten you seat belts, its going to be a bumpy flight." You might be able to talk with a non-Christian counselor about dealing with your family.

If you are living by yourself, I agree with some of the previous
posters. Limit your contact with them all you can. Tell them you still love them, but if they can
show no respect for your feelings,
you would rather not talk with them until they are willing to leave the religion topic alone.

jason said...

John D.

I’m very sorry to hear of your situation. Everyone here knows how christianity distorts reality by assigning credit or fault to every day situations. When your mind is clear you can rationalize reality. Things happen in all of our lives both good and bad. As you know, a non existent god is not responsible.

I handled my situation differently than others have suggested here.

Like you, I also was persecuted by family and friends after my deconversion. Don’t get me wrong, I’m still very angry but I remained calm even in the worst of situations. I never turned my back on my family. Blood will always be thicker than any ridiculous belief system. When they would approach me I simply sat them down and listened to what they had to say. Then I would use their own personal copy of the bibull to dismantle their arguments. The bibull is christianity’s greatest enemy. At first they will not listen and that’s just fine. Don’t pursue them. As we all know, they won’t give up! They will be back! This situation is nothing more than an ample opportunity for me to show them what I had learned! They also saw the peace I had now that hell was no longer a threat to me.

Today my father (my largest adversary) remains stubborn and set in his belief. We get along great. We go garage sale’n or fishing on the weekends. We do not talk about religion, and I never seize opportunities to rub god in his face. Tact. My vigilance, sensibility, and rationality has forced his retreat. Though he would never admit it, I believe he knows the truth in his heart. My Mother, 2 of my 3 sisters, and 3 close friends are now openly questioning and doubting religion.

As 1 of my sisters did, some family and friends will turn their backs on you. This can not be avoided. I will be there for my sister when her false religion fails her and she needs her brother. I’m a better person than of the worlds religious deities.

Turning or running from friends and family will only serve to isolate yourself and to prove their point.

OTC said...

Your family members have their heart in the right place but they've forgotten that they need to evangelize with love, not with judgment. Once it was clear that you understood they’re disagreement with your choice, they should be resisting the sin of spiritual arrogance. Instead, they should be endeavoring to evangelize with love for Love and resist their ugly urges to condescend to you. We believers are no better than you, we are simply blessed to have a life giving faith.

Many Christians believe that they can convert another human being but they are wrong. Only God can reach a man's heart and let him see the truth. Man can and should work in God’s vineyard but a man should always remember that the fruits come from God’s vine. I think that you should ask your family to have more faith in God's will and that their heart felt prayers and sacrifices given in private to Jesus would do better for your conversion than condescension and threats.

The greatest miracle of all is the conversion of a man's heart towards God. If this is the greatest miracle, how can mere men expect to do so of their own will? Only God can break the will of men.

God used my own sins to cause enough distress in my life to essentially force me to listen to Him. I pray that everyone receives this same grace.

God bless,
OTC

billybee said...

Mr Troll; You put an itch on the roof of my mouth that only a shotgun could scratch.

buffettphan said...

Oh crap,
OTC is baaaaaack.

AtheistToothFairy said...

OTC uttered:
Man can and should work in God’s vineyard but a man should always remember that the fruits come from God’s vine
----
I've seen that god "vine" you speak of OTC.

It was in an old movie called, "The Little Shop of Horrors"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Shop_of_Horrors

ATF (Who just heard the voice of god's vine, whispering "FEED ME SEYMOUR")

buffettphan said...

And of course, OTC is once again preying on a hurting person.

John D, hang in there. Many of us have gone through what you're going through. It does get better--with time and with effort on our part. Sometimes that effort involves outside research and learning; sometimes it involves self-searching and building self-confidence; and sometimes it involves nothing but pure unadulterated self-restraint in not telling some people to just f**k off! ;-)

boomSLANG said...

Obstinate, Trolling Catholic is back, with:

God used my own sins to cause enough distress in my life to essentially force me to listen to Him. I pray that everyone receives this same grace.[bold added]

What's that?....you say, you're praying to your biblegod and asking it to cause distress in our lives? How lovely. Thanks-so-much. Oh, and so much for that "free will" bullsh*t, huh?

So, finally it's clarified once and for all, by a "True Christian"---we are "God's" puppets, and the Great Puppeteer in the sky "forces" his will on us......well, that is, if he should happen to want us in his magical play.

Thank you, troll, for clarifying that.

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

OTC: "Many Christians believe that they can convert another human being but they are wrong."

I disagree. That is the primary way religions spread, from one person to another.

"Only God can reach a man's heart and let him see the truth."

You still haven't proven that your god exists.

Oh, and perception of truth is a cognitive function normally associated with the brain... Not the left auricle or the mitral valve or the superior vena cava.

"and sacrifices given in private to Jesus..."

Hmm, what to give the god-kidlet who has everything? *lightbulb* I know! I'll tell myself that I'm a pathetic little piece of shit (yeah, like that will give my gift "value"...) and deny my own desires (thereby causing resentments in my unconscious mind that will rise up and bite me in the ass when I least expect it).

Yup, *great* plan, OTC.

Not.

"If this is the greatest miracle..."

MIRACLE: parameter null or not set
Assertion terminated


"God used my own sins to cause enough distress in my life to essentially force me to listen to Him."

OTC, you're just rationalizing your past lifestyle decisions by calling them a "gift" from an imaginary being. Your distress was the natural outcome of acting like a shithead... It doesn't take the magic touch of a god to make someone's life go into the toilet; humans are quite capable of causing their own distress.

And nothing that you have done in this world has been magically erased. You still bear 100% responsibility for any misdeeds you may have committed, and the only way you can balance those deeds is by making restitution in the real world.

"I pray that everyone receives this same grace."

That so? May you receive so much "grace" that you lose your faith and never regain it.

Because "grace" is a Real Good Thing, right?

Right??

*crickets*

jason said...

OTC says,

....they need to evangelize with love, not with judgment.....

This is an impossibility. Bottom line is, believe in god or burn in hell. Please explain how your religion is different.

.....they should be endeavoring to evangelize with love for Love and resist their ugly urges to condescend to you......

Why not just accept that I don’t believe in god and that’s OK with you? Will I have a wonderful life knowing that god does not exist? Is not believing in god a sin? What happens to me if I choose to live in sin?

......We believers are no better than you, we are simply blessed to have a life giving faith.........

This is an arrogant elitist judgmental attitude! Will my life be less blessed than yours because I know that a god does not exist? Is my life threatened if I don’t have faith?

......Only God can reach a man's heart and let him see the truth.......

This is arrogantly assuming that a god exists! god can’t reach my heart because I know that it does not exist. How is your irrational and non-empirical version of the truth better than the truth of reality?

There is not a god’s vineyard. There is not a god’s vine. There is not a god’s will. god can not break anything much less any mans will. god can not force man to do anything or listen to anyone. god can not affect mans life in any manner. god does not exist. Your imaginary hell does not exist.

I can not alter your belief system and I don’t want to. Reality is what it is and you simply can’t change that. Life, form beginning to end is the same for me as it is for you no matter what you choose to believe. If you are ever able to prove the existence of an god without your bibull, I will, with an open mind, consider the evidence. Can you make that same acceptance of me, my belief, and my life?

Religion is not love, it can’t be when it’s bottom line is “ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN MY god OR ROT IN HELL FOR ETERNITY!”

OTC.......I know that you are a coward and that you will not come back and answer any questions.

OTC said...

Jason wrote {....they need to evangelize with love, not with judgment.....

This is an impossibility. Bottom line is, believe in god or burn in hell. Please explain how your religion is different.}

Is it difficult to love the one who gave you life? The doctrine of hell will not worry a man when he has faith in the work of Jesus, God. If you don’t love Jesus, then you don’t love God. If you don’t love God and God is the source of all true peace and joy, what do you expect to have when you’re separated from Him, by your own choice?

Jason wrote {.....they should be endeavoring to evangelize with love for Love and resist their ugly urges to condescend to you......

Q1. Why not just accept that I don’t believe in god and that’s OK with you? Q2. Will I have a wonderful life knowing that god does not exist? Q3. Is not believing in god a sin? Q4. What happens to me if I choose to live in sin?}

A1. It is OK, so long as you don’t infringe on my rights to love and worship Jesus. It is also OK, so long at you don’t impose your atheistic view on my children. When I say that they should evangelize, I do not mean that anyone should talk to you about God when they already know your stance. I mean that they should work a living a life that pleases God and this would be their evangelization to those near them.

A2. You may very well have a “wonderful” life by your standards, but if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll know that something is missing. You were made to love your creator and true joy and peace will only come when you kneel before Him acknowledging the truth of His words, given to us through Jesus.

A3. Yes, it is a sin. The very 1st commandment requires us to love God.

A4. By stating “if I choose to live in sin” implies that you admit to recognizing your sins. Recognizing your sin and choosing to chase them without any repentance will likely cause the greatest suffering of all, eternal separation from God. No suffering on earth would compare to the pain of being separated from the one that loves you and knows you the most, Jesus.


Jason wrote {......We believers are no better than you, we are simply blessed to have a life giving faith.........

Q1. This is an arrogant elitist judgmental attitude! Q2. Will my life be less blessed than yours because I know that a god does not exist? Q3. Is my life threatened if I don’t have faith?}

A1. If you re-read my words you may see that I say “we believers are NO better than you”, this is not elitist, or arrogant or judgmental.

A2. By speaking of blessing you admit of believing in God since the term “blessed” is normally used to indicate the bestowing of divine favor…..especially in the context of our dialog. So, your question of being less blessed for “knowing” that God does not exist is very much a contradictory question. You do know that there is a creator and you are correct in believing that you will likely receive less blessings by choosing a life of sin. When you are in a state of grave sins, as you are, God, if He’s blessed your life, will often use your own sins to cause distress in your life. Example; your hatred and arrogance may cause much anguish in your life. Your sins of impurity may cause failed relationship after failed relationship and/or relationships that lack depth of love. Etc…

A3. Your real life, that is, your soul’s life is definitely threatened by your apostasy. Your earthly life (everyone’s), will appear as a passing shadow once we leave this body behind. Your choices, will decide your eternal resting place. So yes, your soul’s life, the only one that matters, is definitely threatened.


Jason wrote {......Only God can reach a man's heart and let him see the truth.......

Q1. This is arrogantly assuming that a god exists! god can’t reach my heart because I know that it does not exist. Q2. How is your irrational and non-empirical version of the truth better than the truth of reality?}

A1. If my faith in God appears arrogant to you, know that you are equally arrogant with your multiple statements stating that “I know that it (God) does not exist”. You know that this is false because your very frantic behavior is a testament to your soul’s desire to live.

A2. The reality of nature is undeniable and fantastically beautiful in its amazing coherence, elegance and beauty…..but once you are blessed with faith, the reality of the supernatural is equally undeniable and its beauty has become the joy of my heart. The supernatural, God’s way of placing His proof of authenticity throughout the ages, has its own empirical evidence. See the miracle of the sun at Fatima (1917) or the Garabandal miracles (1961-1965) and if you pay close attention by listening and reading with your heart, you’ll see the empirical evidence of God’s work. 70,000 people converging to a remote farm area and witnessing a ten minute miracle of the sun, is empirical evidence.


Jason wrote {There is not a god’s vineyard. There is not a god’s vine. There is not a god’s will. god can not break anything much less any mans will. god can not force man to do anything or listen to anyone. god can not affect mans life in any manner. god does not exist. Your imaginary hell does not exist.}

I’m sorry Jason but you can repeat it all you want but it won’t make it so. God loves you and He is seriously real.


Jason wrote {Religion is not love, it can’t be when it’s bottom line is “ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN MY god OR ROT IN HELL FOR ETERNITY!”}

Why worry about hell if you know that you don’t sin? Why are you so frantic? The answer is simple, we all don’t like hearing about hell because we’re all too busy sinning and hell gets in the way. Satan has a great strangle hold on this world and I doubt that it won’t get worse before it gets better. People every where have swallowed his lies, hook, line and sinker. This is no doubt a cause of anguish for our creator, Jesus, to see His children rejecting His offer of love.

Friend, I truly hope the truth will find you someday. If ever you want to cast away those wicked thoughts and irresistible urges, ask Jesus for help and then make your way to a Catholic priest to receive the sacrament of confession. I remember when I 1st confessed after over 20 years of chasing sin, it was like my mind was under massive attack during the whole time listening to the priest talk to me. But when I left, there was peace in my heart and the journey continues. Through the grace of perseverance, the tempter will never keep me in chains to my sins again. I’ll hope and pray that all of you receive the same.

OTC

AtheistToothFairy said...

OTC wrote:
The doctrine of hell will not worry a man when he has faith in the work of Jesus, God
----
FYI: The doctrine of hell also will not worry a 'man', who knows that jesus never did any "work", as he never existed.
Well, "never existed", other than on the pages of some story-book.


ATF (Who wonders if a fictitious carpenter and his floating hammer, can still drive a fictitious nail?)

Astreja said...

OTC: "You do know that there is a creator..."

I doubt very much that you are capable of knowing our thoughts.

"The answer is simple, we all don’t like hearing about hell because we’re all too busy sinning and hell gets in the way."

OTC, are you actually capable of comprehending the psychological damage that the concept of Hell can do to a young mind?

Even though the place is almost certainly imaginary, any threats referring to the place cause emotional distress and physiological hypervigilance, causing real and lasting damage that can take a lifetime to overcome.

If you are knowingly transmitting to your children such vile concepts as Hell and Original Sin, you are abusing them by deliberately inducing fear of an imaginary entity.

And that, in a nutshell, is why we dislike hearing about Hell. Not because it exists (I doubt that very, very much), but because it re-triggers the pain of past psychological abuses, causing flashbacks to very unpleasant real-world experiences.

Get this through your head once and for all, you Pope-licking shithead: The pain you are causing here is real. You are abusive. Not merely arrogant, but abusive. Deliberately so. So fucking convinced that you're right that you refuse to simply shake the dust off your sandals and leave us in peace.

Now go out and stare at the sun or something. Even if you don't see Mother Mary doing the Macarena in the clouds, we'll least have a few minutes of peace and quiet here while you're learning Braille.

THE ACE said...

OTC: In your post, you said you don't want any atheist putting their views on your children. Okay, then what gives you, or people like you, the right to put
your Christian views on someone
else's children?

And you have done nothing to prove
the existence of a god. Your letter, like so many of the Christian posts here, comes down
to "I believe there is a God, so
therefore, He exists." What about
the Moslem who would say "I believe
in Allah, therefore He exists."
You'd laugh at him and think he was
a fool.

So think now..who's laughing at
you?

sconnor said...

OTC,

You are living in a bunker made of Bibles, wallowing in your own delusion. On what authority do you make your claims, dip shit? What do you base all your proclamations on?
All your dumb-ass notions come from the presupposition that your Bible and Catholic religion is guided by god. All your concepts of heaven and hell have been manufactured by MEN -- not god. Men wrote the Bible and created doctrine. It is not god's word; it is mans word, under the guise of god's supposed voice, to lend credibility to religious agendas, where there is no credibility to begin with. The only one who has swallowed, anything, hook, line and sinker is you; who chokes down the false, man-made ideology of your perverted religion only to continuously vomit it up as a way to validate and bolster your own warped world view.

Some times you have to fight crazy with crazy. Here are some delusional comments from the quran:
1. Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom.
2. If you believe in only part of the (Quran's) Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next.
3. Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell.
4. Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom.
5. Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their non belief.
6. All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die.
7. Disbelievers will be cursed by Allah, angels, and men. They will have a painful doom.
8. Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom.
9. Those who deny the truth of Islam will be punished by Allah.
10. Allah allows some to disbelieve in the afterlife, and to take pleasure in their disbelief, so that he can torment them forever after they die.
11. Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have the Fire placed over them like an awning.
... and there are hundreds and hundreds more insane verses from the quran. What makes your own delusional view any more credible, than that what is spewed in the quran?

Isn't it curious OTC, that another religion is just as deluded and mentally fucked up as you are? We here at Ex-chritain.net have come to the realization that god has not said anything to us. Only dumb-ass fuck-job men, like yourself, have regurgitated the fantasy of their religion, in the name of a supposed god, to give credibility, where none exists. God hasn't said shit -- only men have; which is nothing more then a big pile of sticking, delusional, fabricated, religious shit.

Go shovel it somewhere else you shit-spewer.

--S.

godsfavoritecolor said...

John,
You have received lots of good advice in these posts, even though they are not all consistent with each other. You need to determine which approach works for you. Try to find rational groups and people in your area to associate with face to face. If you are able, find a secular counselor to help you. Good luck.
OTC,
You are mentally ill. You have an obsession with the bogus concept of sin. Ask yourself if you can talk about your bogus god and his love without mentioning sin. You are in serious need of mental counseling. My advice to you also is to find a good secular mental counselor to help you.

billybee said...

Astreja sez to otc;
"...Now go out and stare at the sun or something. Even if you don't see Mother Mary doing the Macarena in the clouds, we'll least have a few minutes of peace and quiet here while you're learning Braille."

well, that is the best line I've heard to date. You get the blue ribbon !!

jason said...

Awwwwwww......OTC....you replied! Thanks!

Ok, let’s look at the poo poo.

....Is it difficult to love the one who gave you life?.....

Nope. I love my mother very much. Thanks for asking though!

Let me rearrange your statement here......
The doctrine of hell will not worry me when I don’t have faith in the work of jesus, god. If I don’t love jesus, then I don’t love god. If I don’t love god and god is not the source of all true peace and joy, what do I expect to have when I’m separated from him, by my own choice?

I have a great life that is my own and real! I don’t live in fear of imaginary sky spooks.

.....A1. It is OK, so long as you don’t infringe on my rights to love and worship Jesus. It is also OK, so long at you don’t impose your atheistic view on my children........

OTC....can I expect the same from you and your ignorant kind?

.......A2. You may very well have a “wonderful” life by your standards, but if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll know that something is missing. You were made to love your creator and true joy and peace will only come when you kneel before Him acknowledging the truth of His words, given to us through Jesus........

Awwwwww. Here is more of that arrogant elitist attitude of yours!

Is your standards better than mine?
Is your honesty better than mine?
I am not missing anything! Why are you so arrogant as to assume that I am?
I was not made by any god. I do not believe in your fantasies. Please respect my belief, that’s what you want me to do for you.

.......A3. Yes, it is a sin. The very 1st commandment requires us to love God. A4. By stating “if I choose to live in sin” implies that you admit to recognizing your sins. Recognizing your sin and choosing to chase them without any repentance will likely cause the greatest suffering of all, eternal separation from God. No suffering on earth would compare to the pain of being separated from the one that loves you and knows you the most, Jesus.......

OTC, again with the elitist arrogant attitude! The sin I refer to is that I do not believe in a god. In my belief system that is not a sin. It’s only a sin for you. Can you acknowledge that in MY belief system, not believing in god is NOT a sin???????
I can’t live in sin if the sin does not exist!

......A1. If you reread my words you may see that I say “we believers are NO better than you”, this is not elitist, or arrogant or judgmental....

I read it right the first time. Are you better off than I am since you are blessed with LIFE giving faith???????

......A2. By speaking of blessing you admit of believing in God since the term “blessed” is normally used to indicate the bestowing of divine favor........(the rest of the droning is oral diarrhea!)

Nonsense! Nice try though!

.....I’m sorry Jason but you can repeat it all you want but it won’t make it so. God loves you and He is seriously real.....

Again with the elitist and arrogant attitude!!

OTC....I accept that you know you believe in god! I hope wherever you go when you die it’s a wonderful and pleasent place. Live long and prosper!
Can you accept that I KNOW that a god does not exist??????

....Why worry about hell if you know that you don’t sin? Why are you so frantic? The answer is simple, we all don’t like hearing about hell because we’re all too busy sinning and hell gets in the way..........

I don’t worry about hell. hell does not exist for me. If hell exists for you the your the frantic one. You may be too busy sinning, but I’m not. Sorry to hear this about you.

OTC......I hope that you will one day step from behind your self inflicted veil of delusion. I hope that you one day regain and reassert your intelligence in your life. Good luck. I WILL not reply to you again.

Margaret Johnston said...

I am sorry your family is giving you so much trouble. You may be able to gain some perspective by becoming aware of the stages of belief - a concept being studied by several academic researchers and written about on a much more simple level in my blog: BeliefStagesandGrowth.com.

In short your family must belong to Stage Two - or what I call the "faithful" group. These people though more or less sincere, have a deep need to hold onto their beliefs - and cannot allow anyone else room to believe differently - because it is the structure of their religion that is holding their life together. Thus, their extreme criticism of you - you are a threat to their beliefs. They are acting out of fear.

In your case, if you have seriously been able to release the need for a structured religion, you probably have reached what I am calling the "Rational" level. These people no longer need the support provided by an organized religion and rely on reason, rather than blind faith, to decide what they believe. There are many stories on my blog of people who have moved away from faith (and many other stories of those who have moved toward faith) You may gain some comfort by reading some of these stories. It will not change your relatives' values, but may help you understand them.

Best wishes to you,
Margaret Johnston
BeliefStagesandGrowth.com

twincats said...

John D. - Welcome and I hope you can find comfort, love and support here with us.

It is my hope that you are destroying all of the horrible xtian propaganda that you are receiving from your relatives so that no one else (including and especially you) has to look upon those messages of hate and hopelessness.

nickm said...

You could try moving to Europe. I realise this is getting harder nowadays, although given your treatment by the Secret Service you could always try for political asylum.
Please forgive me for being facetious, but it's breathtaking to hear of a American citizen being treated like this for exercising the rights to free speech and freedom of religion enshrined in their constitution.
I'm afraid I have to agree with the majority of the respondents above who have suggested minimising contact with your family.
In practice this may be rather difficult, if so, take heart in the fact that, globally speaking, Right-wing Republican Christians are a very tiny proportion of the population. In fact, I suspect they form a smaller proportion of the US population than they would like to believe, but they certainly seem to be a disproportionately powerful 10% or so.
You may have gathered from the above that I'm not an American, I'm a Brit living in godless London and even in my most evangelical days, I would have regarded your family with a kind of bewildered horror. Even within Evangelical European Christendom, anyone who believes in 6-day creation, say, consigns him or herself to the lunatic fringe. The kind of fundamentalism to which you seem to be falling victim is a curiously American phenomenon.
So be encouraged - you are not alone. You're just really unlucky that the 1 or 2% of the world's population with the zany fundamentalist views you describe seem to include 100% of your family. It may not bother them that 98% of humanity are hell-bound. It obviously bothers you. In my book, this places you well above them in the moral order of things.
Good luck.

Anonymous said...

Hey folks!

Thought I would add to some of OTC's little nuggets so here it goes.........

From OTC:
"A2. You may very well have a “wonderful” life by your standards, but if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll know that something is missing. You were made to love your creator and true joy and peace will only come when you kneel before Him acknowledging the truth of His words, given to us through Jesus."

Sniff, sniff......Sounds like more christian propaganda and manipulation to me.

Dream on OTC, I was made to love my family, not some imaginary friend.

OTC:
"A3. Yes, it is a sin. The very 1st commandment requires us to love God."

My Reply:
Poor little insecured God. It's all about me, me, me....poor little God just craves attention don't he? lol!

OTC:
"A4. By stating “if I choose to live in sin” implies that you admit to recognizing your sins. Recognizing your sin and choosing to chase them without any repentance will likely cause the greatest suffering of all, eternal separation from God."

Ah I see......You go from "Jesus loves you" to the typical Christian threats of hell.

More from OTC:
"No suffering on earth would compare to the pain of being separated from the one that loves you and knows you the most, Jesus."

Ok OTC, let me test your theory about "Jesus loves me the most".

According to the christian faith, Jesus loves us "Unconditionally", and he loves us more than our earthly father does.

Ok, however this loving Jesus/God will still allow us to go to hell if we choose to reject him.

So therefore God does not send us to hell, we choose to send ourselves to hell by rejecting Jesus Christ, which proves that Jesus does not love us unconditionally.

I can also prove right now that Jesus does not love me more than what my earthly father does.

If I chose to reject my earthly dad, I know for a fact that he would not set me on fire. He would be hurt for sure, however he would not set me on fire.

Now you say that, "I am the one who chooses to go to hell", while God will stand by and allow it to happen. Let's once again let's test your little theory about how Jesus loves me the most, and how he loves me more than my earthly father does.

I asked my earthly father what would he do if I chose to get a can of gasoline out of the garage, pour it on myself and set myself on fire what would he do? He told me he would stop me and would not allow me to set myself on fire.

However, I went on and asked him, "What if I chose to reject you, and I insisted that you let me set myself on fire"? He still said that he would intervene and would stop me from choosing to set myself on fire, because he loves me.

However, Jesus/Heaven God would stand by and allow me to burn in hell, because I rejected him.

Hmmmm.....seems my earthly father loves me more than what Jesus does.

Now what do you have to say about that OTC?

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