Christianity is an excuse to do nothing
Sent in by Kyle
I was raised in confusion. My mother, a devoted Southern Baptist, demanded that I attend church services every Wednesday night. On the weekends; however, I lived with my father, a devoted Southerner. Although some might think that these two worlds could peacefully coincide, nothing is farther from the truth. Monday through Friday I was a squeaky clean little boy. I didn't curse, I used my manners. The weekends were a different story. At my fathers house, I could (and did) curse excessively; I could drink if I wanted; It was pretty much anything goes.
Church was never optional but devotion was. I never had faith and I still don't. That is until I was saved. After a screening of the overdramatized bullshit cake of "The Passion of the Christ", I asked the lord Jesus to come into my life. Finally, my life had direction! I didn't have a care in the world because Jesus would take care of it. It was a wonderful and magical feeling and I left the theater with a feeling of invincibility that lasted until I woke up the next morning, at which point I relapsed into a feeling of sameness that had plagued me my whole life.
So for months nothing changed about my life. But my hometown church got a new pastor, who invited his younger brother to become youth pastor. That's when my "faith" got more serious. It seemed to me that these two guys were on the level about there religion and I really thought I understood "church" for the first time in my life. It was a glorious six months.....What happened next hurt me for a very long time afterwards.
Our youth group was very close, like a big family. Even our adult counselors (The people who we were to look up to for spiritual guidance and advice) were more like friends than adults. Which is why I was hurt and confused when I found out that one of those counselors had lured one of the younger girls from the group out to his house where he molested her. He also offered her a ride in his car a few months later and parked in a secluded playground where he molested her again. I was enraged and immediately called my youth pastor and told him what I had found out. He called a meeting at the church that afternoon with Two deacons of the church, the molester, the molested (accompanied by her mother and father), and me. I sat in the pastors office directly opposite of the Counselor and was horrified when the outcome of the meeting was this: The molester was not punished at all. Nothing changed. The young girl stopped attending church and apparently no one lost sleep about it.
Basically the system failed. God did not protect this girl. Jesus did not come down and wave his magic nails to make everything better. Once again, confusion fell on me. I was treated as an outsider for blowing the whistle on a very sick man.
Christianity is an excuse. An excuse to do nothing but sit back, close your eyes, speak your problems to a man who does not exist, and believe that he will take care of everything. It's bullshit and I have not believed for over two years.
I was raised in confusion. My mother, a devoted Southern Baptist, demanded that I attend church services every Wednesday night. On the weekends; however, I lived with my father, a devoted Southerner. Although some might think that these two worlds could peacefully coincide, nothing is farther from the truth. Monday through Friday I was a squeaky clean little boy. I didn't curse, I used my manners. The weekends were a different story. At my fathers house, I could (and did) curse excessively; I could drink if I wanted; It was pretty much anything goes.
Church was never optional but devotion was. I never had faith and I still don't. That is until I was saved. After a screening of the overdramatized bullshit cake of "The Passion of the Christ", I asked the lord Jesus to come into my life. Finally, my life had direction! I didn't have a care in the world because Jesus would take care of it. It was a wonderful and magical feeling and I left the theater with a feeling of invincibility that lasted until I woke up the next morning, at which point I relapsed into a feeling of sameness that had plagued me my whole life.
So for months nothing changed about my life. But my hometown church got a new pastor, who invited his younger brother to become youth pastor. That's when my "faith" got more serious. It seemed to me that these two guys were on the level about there religion and I really thought I understood "church" for the first time in my life. It was a glorious six months.....What happened next hurt me for a very long time afterwards.
Our youth group was very close, like a big family. Even our adult counselors (The people who we were to look up to for spiritual guidance and advice) were more like friends than adults. Which is why I was hurt and confused when I found out that one of those counselors had lured one of the younger girls from the group out to his house where he molested her. He also offered her a ride in his car a few months later and parked in a secluded playground where he molested her again. I was enraged and immediately called my youth pastor and told him what I had found out. He called a meeting at the church that afternoon with Two deacons of the church, the molester, the molested (accompanied by her mother and father), and me. I sat in the pastors office directly opposite of the Counselor and was horrified when the outcome of the meeting was this: The molester was not punished at all. Nothing changed. The young girl stopped attending church and apparently no one lost sleep about it.
Basically the system failed. God did not protect this girl. Jesus did not come down and wave his magic nails to make everything better. Once again, confusion fell on me. I was treated as an outsider for blowing the whistle on a very sick man.
Christianity is an excuse. An excuse to do nothing but sit back, close your eyes, speak your problems to a man who does not exist, and believe that he will take care of everything. It's bullshit and I have not believed for over two years.
Comments
skep
thenewagereformation.blogspot.com. the beauty of life is that we have free will and the sad thing is that many christians, believe that everything is God's will.
That's the bottom line.
I love to be able to execute judgement on that molester and anyone who continues to allow him to continue. I suppose though we are not all molesters we all are due terrible judgement as well in the end.
Good luck out there and hope you examine things more rationally in the future....even when they totally suck emotionally.
Are you are a chritstian?
This is true, and i do encourage Kyle to examine his beliefs critically.
However, Christianity does make certain promises—one of which is that those who believe will receive the grace to resist sin (Romans 6). While no one claims that Christians are sinless (Romans 3), if Christianity is true, we should be able to distinguish Christians from non-Christians to at least some extent by their behavior.
Kyle’s experience, when added to almost 1700 years of horrendous behavior, refutes the notion that Christianity makes better people. Of course, at this point the apologist will chime in with the “not a True Christian™” excuse, but that reduces the definition of Christianity to question-begging and blows off the question of faith and grace.
What else has Kyle to work with? Christianity has nothing to back it up aside from emotional experiences, the Bible (hearsay), and ancient traditions (more hearsay).
Are you saying that with all the evidence that was presented, nothing was done about the abuser?
If the local police weren't involved why not? If they were, there are ways that can force them to do their job.
The situation you described here is very common, just read here in the archives about all the abuse that happens within the boundaries of the different churches. Religion seems to
be a collection point for sex offenders. They will try and cover their dirty asses.
Investigate this further, do not let them get away with it.
I hope also that you reported him to the authorities and I'd even go as far as to plaster flyers all around that church alerting others that perp is on the loose, and to go back and do this quarterly in case new people join the church
my friend was abused as a child in a similar scenario. it was and still is a very painful mark that continues to impact their life today - in extreme ways. No one should have to go through what this child has gone through - NO ONE! NOT ANOTHER CHILD!
I left the church years ago just for this sort of extreme social apathy. a woman at my church was SO MEAN to me! everyone just stood by and watched, until finally yrs later the masses at that place had enough. but meanwhile, they all stood back and clucked along with her while I was the victim
anyhow that is nothing compared with this sad, sad story
I even wish you would publish the name of that church - this really is a very serious matter
Christians do sin it says in the bible that the flesh is week but this is by no means and excuse for what happened and I do agree this should have been reported, it's the bad behaviour of some christians that gives good christians a bad name.
I pray that God will bless you and that you will walk in His light, He is real and He will judge us all, Do not judge God by some so called christians behaviour. Call upon God to reveal Himself to you and wait upon Him. He will answer your prays you just need to speak to Him from your heart.
"I know for sure 100% Jesus is real, please don't be fooled into not believing this."
Ok, since you are "100 percent for sure", let's see the proof that you have. Remember the bible does not count since it was written by men who claim they were inspired by God. Remember, we cannot trust the word of man, so you are going to have to come up with solid evidence that is outside of the bible. The bible itself is not evidence.
Anonymous Said:
"Call upon God to reveal Himself to you and wait upon Him. He will answer your prays you just need to speak to Him from your heart"
Ok so just set back and wait and waste my whole entire life waiting on him like I did before for 8 long miserable years.
Sorry pal, but you're not fooling anyone but yourself.
I await for your proof outside of the bible that Jesus exists.
The only and one true God that exists is "Allah".
I suggest that you christian infidels accept and embrace "Allah" as the only true God or you will pay a very serious price.
HiAll Hitler
To Mr. Mohammed I say, check your history. Until the time of Abraham you were one with the Christians - worshipping the same god by the same name. Now you think calling your god by a different name makes you right and christians wrong. Keep your mind closed and your world will be a safe place. Nothing will shake your faith because you will be able to continue to ignore other possibilities. Christians and Muslims alike once killed people for suggesting that the Earth orbited the sun, for saying that the world wasn't flat and for suggesting that the evil spirits that attacked people were actually microscopic life forms. Follow that model and your world will be safe.
Or, you can open your mind to the possibility that words written by men two thousand years ago just might have been based on a simpler, more superstitious view of the world. Before science was superstition. The people who wrote your holy books believed that the Earth was the center of the universe... if they were wrong about that, what else were they wrong about?
Religion has always been a tool used by powerful men to control large groups of people. Spirituality, however, is a personal sense of your relationship to God and the Universe.
Sorry to go on a rant, but this is my first post and there is so much I want to share. To come back to our original post, let's point out one more huge flaw in christianity. Besides eating and breathing, sex is one of our most fundamental instincts. When priests are forbidden to marry or associate with women they never learn to develop healthy relationships. (They are even taught that to masturbate makes them unclean.) Since the church forbids them to develop healthy relationships, they seek to satisfy, in secret, one of the most powerful urges humans experience. Unfortunately, most do not know how to approach a real woman in a healthy manner. So they seek out the naive and inexperienced - our children.
Religion frequently destroys people, destroys families and ruins lives. Religion teaches you to close your mind, ignore possibilities and fear the undiscovered.
Free yourself, just say no to religion. Find your spirituality within and your will find your connection to everything that is. You will be able to love yourself, your God, and your universe without guilt or fear. You will be free.
We are human beings with laws. That's who we are.
"The biblical truth is that God has never said this is a sin. Since it seems the child was a female, this man has not commited the abomination of laying with another man."
Ah, I see. So, in your opinion, it's Biblically okay to molest a child if that child happens to be female?
I wish this was a parody, but I fear that Anonymouse is dead serious about this.
(takes Her sword, cuts out the heart of Christianity, and rams it down Anonymouse's throat) Fuck off and take your idiotic religion with you.
Sir or madam, well said. Make up a nickname (so we don't confuse you with the various Anonymice) and stick around a while. Or, better yet, join us over at the forum.
Thanks for your invitation Astreja.
"Jesus said, 'Judge not lest you be judged'. Who are we to judge this man that put his hands on a child?"
Another christian who tries to justify the actions of a pervert or a criminal because he carries the "Christian Label".
Christians like you make me sick.
Let me first say – these are my beliefs and thoughts – and though I write as though it were fact and truth, I do not expect you to take it as your truth and fact, but it is mine so I can only write it as such or I can not freely compose my thoughts trying to change it to say possibilities or theory…
The religion of christianity today is a false religion - an abomination to the God of the Bible...
the christian church and leaders in it have let me down so many times and out of obedience to the god of the christian church, and my “faith” in the christian church, I kept going back… - usually after making horrible decisions in life …
I always wondered why when I actually read the Bible, it contradicted what I learned in church… I thought I just must not be smart enough to get it… when I asked questions, the explanation did not make sense, but it was told that we believe this by faith… so why would I ask any more questions of man, for that would mean I did not have faith??? when I asked God to reveal the truth to me, I never got it… I spent years reading the bible sporadically and for a period of months, it was about all I did, begging God to show me the truth and help me to understand and for it all to make sense…. My heart longed for it to make sense, I loved God and I was committed to Him and my church….. but He would not reveal His truth to me…. or so I thought. I was “brainwashed” if you want to call it that, to be obedient – to what I was taught, to my faith in the christian church… so when God revealed His truth to me, I did not see it – it – the truth, rose questions – that I would not ask – for that would be going against my faith in the god of the christian church.
One thing however, I have had numerous times in my life where God gave me miracles that could not be written off as chance, so I know Him to be real. After so many times of the church letting me down, but knowing God to be real, I dug deeper and deeper and deeper… I started asking all of those questions He gave me before but I was too insecure in my faith in HIM to raise opposition to the christian church, I dug deeper, I read more, I researched more … once I was truly able to get rid of the religion of and my faith in the christian church and went straight to the source, finally, the truth became clear, the contradictions went away and I could see the Bible for the truth that it is. I was not to look to man as my god, or the church as my god. Unfortunately, most of us come to Christianity at such a saddened, depressed, weakened state, that we don’t find our faith and trust in God, but in the man of “say this prayer and your life will be a fairy tale”… the christian church, therefore, we start out wrong – led wrong – though there is truth taught, there are also false things taught – therefore, you can’t say a piece of paper is all white if there is a black spot on it… a little bit of false is false…. So, people tend to make church and the leaders of it their god – I did, God was my God, so I claimed, but I listened to them first, so they were my god – and they – man, religion, organizations, ministries, … they will always let us down and lead us astray.
So, yes, today – the Bible - is absolute truth to me – if you want to say it contradicts itself, I ask you to read it more without the influence of everything else… do you have anything to lose? if you want to say there is historical or scientific fact to prove it wrong – I ask where… ? Fact, not theory. But really – my relationship with God without anything else shows me how real He is and how true His word is. I could tell you countless stories and truths – but I am just man – or woman, so I won’t.
So back to the topic at hand…. My precious, innocent, beautiful daughter was molested at church, from her Sunday school teacher…. Yes, I went to the church and the police – bottom line, without photo/video proof or admission – there is nothing they can do…. There is nothing anyone can do about it – but guess what – the God of The Bible – oh, yes, there is a lot that He can and will do and that is the only place that anyone, myself, my daughter, the man who did this, the pastor of the church, the police,…. Anyone will ever find peace.
Get rid of religion and everything it has ever taught you, any pain or let down it has ever caused you and seek truly God and His word – He is not christianity - christianity the religion is man and very contradictory of Him – God – the God of the Bible – In Him you will find truth and peace – even in the midst of the most horrendous things one could ever imagine… trust me, I have more where that came from.
Again, this is my truth and my fact based on my life experiences and my “spiritual” experiences. We each must find our own truth and fact – but my warning to you – do not let your truth or fact or belief be based on something from someone else or you are a follower of that person, thing, religion, organization… – don’t follow me, follow your heart – we were all born with a heart – even the man who molested my daughter, I feel sorry that his life lead him to where he is today for he can not be happy and at peace.
I live each day with a smile on my heart for I follow the desires of my heart – and yes, He, who created me placed them there…. we mess up when we follow the desires that man places in our heart – they lead to …. All the problems of the world we live in.
And if you ask, why would God allow this – molestations and such… – do you want to be a robot? Not me, thankfully He gave me free will and choice to follow Him or not. I choose Him. I am an Ex-christian and now a Child of God truly following Christ to the best of my ability, learning more every day.
I'm sorry to hear about your daughter being molested, but you're still making excuses to yourself in order to vilify your longing for a belief in the bible god. IT was you that let your guard down and you let your daughter loose her innocence.
You've got to get a back bone and stand up for what is right, not stand up for what you want to believe.
You've let people minipulate you, especially authority figures (mostly men, also men who wrote the bible) all your life because you are afraid of your bible god.
Read Deuteronomy ch. 21-24 if you think your bible god is so great, I know you will not, because you would prefer to read about the sweet baby jesus, the one who also had no back bone and never stood up against anyone either.
Forgive them father, for they know not what they do, but I know what I'm doing, I'm allowing a bunch of insane hooligans to put me up on this stick and I am to wait here for three days until my father (myself) comes to get me.
I say stand up for what you know is right, not what you want to believe, if you do not, you will be crucified just like your baby jesus, and live in remorse all your life.
Quit reading the Bible and get some damn guts for once in your life, try it you may like it!
"The religion of christianity today is a false religion - an abomination to the God of the Bible..."
The god of the Bible is unproven. Until such proof is obtained, your religion is just as false. And the burden of proof is upon *you*, not upon us. We want physical proof, not subjective testimonies.
"One thing however, I have had numerous times in my life where God gave me miracles that could not be written off as chance, so I know Him to be real."
No, you believe this god to be real. And how do you know it's the god of the Bible and not, say, telepathic space aliens?
"I could see the Bible for the truth that it is."
Ah, so perhaps you're the person who can finally provide Me with an authentic talking snake. Please Fed-Ex one at your earliest convenience.
"Unfortunately, most of us come to Christianity at such a saddened, depressed, weakened state..."
Not so. A good many of us were indoctrinated as children, because our parental units wanted us to believe the same myths as them. Tragically, you now know one way in which Sunday School damages people... But there are other, more insidious ways. In My opinion, your daughter should never have been there in the first place.
"...but guess what – the God of The Bible – oh, yes, there is a lot that He can and will do..."
Unfortunately, protecting children from molestation doesn't appear to be one of those things. (And again the tired old "free will" defense is trotted out to explain it all away.)
"Get rid of religion and everything it has ever taught you..."
Like it or not, you *do* have a religion. You believe in an alleged god and its holy book. We do not.
Kindly leave our site and get back to the business of seeking real-life justice for your daughter.
...it was about all I did, begging God to show me the truth and help me to understand and for it all to make sense…. My heart longed for it to make sense, I loved God and I was committed to Him and my church….. but He would not reveal His truth to me…. or so I thought..... so when God revealed His truth to me, I did not see it........So, yes, today – the Bible - is absolute truth to me – if you want to say it contradicts itself, I ask you to read it more without the influence of everything else… do you have anything to lose
---
Seeking,
The bible doesn't make sense for a good reason.
It was written by MEN, not some god.
The churches whitewash the bible so it will appeal to their followers and keep attendance as high as possible.
It is not their purpose to reveal the inner workings of how the bible came to be and the many problems within it's pages.
You believe your church was wrong in the 'version' they taught you, and you at first discovered these problems yourself, but later you say you reconciled them, some-how.
What you actually did is what so many xtians have done themselves.
You have cherry picked what you like, discarded what you don't and thus molded the bible into something to suit YOU.
The bible can be made to say whatever one wishes it to say, as is indicated by the 3000 xtian sects we have, that all claim to be based upon the words of the 'same' bible you have read.
It's like a storybook that each reader customizes themselves, into whatever fits their own personal agendas etc..
>I have had numerous times in my life where God gave me miracles that could not be written off as chance, so I know Him to be real
I am VERY sure what you have done, is to find certain odd events in your life that you WISH to attribute to god, while ignoring all the events that god failed to address; or that you attributed to some other force.
e.g. The Devil.
I'm sure you can't point to anything both supernatural and verifiable, in what you believe god has had a hand in, now can you?
Things of positive chance can be easily made to SEEM miraculous, if one rules out all the many negatives we chose to ignore.
If you only count the times you rolled double sixes with a pair of dice, then it will seem god rolled those dice for you.
Many studies have been done to try and prove god's hand in the lives of humankind, and all have failed to do so.
So, if you believe god is helping YOU, then you have to ask why you are so special, over and above the majority of fellow humans on this earth.
Can you explain what makes you that special to this god??
>There is nothing anyone can do about it – but guess what – the God of The Bible – oh, yes, there is a lot that He can and will do...
It must be nice to believe in an avenger god that will punish those we feel need to be punished.
Now think about it, doesn't it make sense that humans invented god for several reasons, revenge being one of the top ten on the hit parade?
It was all about making us FEEL better, but in reality, there is no god to be your avenger.
Sorry about that, but that's reality, Seeking.
You are half way there now, in that you saw the fallacy of what the churches preach, but you still haven't realized the bible itself is the real problem, because it was written by men and is just as screwed up as those in the churches that you already recognize as such.
Now, you can continue to fool yourself into a belief of this xtian god, or you can look for the evidence as we have, instead of seeing things of chance as god-miracles.
If you look close enough, with a critical eye, you can't miss the fact that god is not helping you or anyone else, for god exists only in the minds of the believers and no where else.
ATF (Who can't wait to hear about these so-called miracles from god)
- there is no way I did anything to cause my child to be attacked - and take all faith, beliefs and religion aside - it could happen anywhere and does everyday - I am one of the most preventative, attentive, aware mothers you will find, the reason that I knew it happened... and did pursue all possible avenues - legal that is. What help would I be to her if I chose the illegal route? I really don't want an answer to that for I would not agree with it. Until you have been there yourself, don't even go there.
For any who want to judge on fault - first I ask - do you have children? Whether yes or no - have you or will you ever leave them with a babysitter to go to a movie, dinner, concert, game... or any other activity... ?
I have not - they have only been left in the care of more than one "trusted" adult at a time - and it still happened - ... statistically - it is the most "trusted" people that commit these horrible acts - parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, teachers, babysitters.... churches actally fall later, it is the first ones that don't get in the news because no one wants their family to be on the front page of their local paper... how many of you have been molested? I would bet it is quite high.
yes, I have let authority figures manipulate me - is there anyone who has not? I find that to be a thoughtless assumption. For me, it started with controlling parents... how about you? I had to learn by the school of life to stand strong for me and what I believe in rather than follow ....
The Bible is only my guide - real life events in relationship with God is my personal proof.
I would hope that in commenting on one's post that you would not piece together sections to make it say something that was not said... I find most of you to be very intelligent - though often angry - intelligent.... and it makes me wonder why ... I see standard - text book replies that have no relevance to my post...
I did read Deuteronomy 21-24 and one must take the people of that day and what they were doing on their own - it is dealing with the people, their actions and them trying to figure out how to handle their own abandonment from the truth and somehow find their way back... - there is much historical depth and character one must uncover to better understand and present explaination - I think that niether I nor you have that - if you had it, you would say more than read these verses. I have researched a bit, but not enough to debate...
no - I am not looking for just my sweet jesus - I see Jesus Christ - not all sweet - He too was angry - not at the people, but at what was being done - even in events such as that referenced in Deuteronomy - in the church, here you go, you will probably love this - turning the church into a business, a marketplace, the word into merchandise - therefore - today, how it is presented is that which the people will buy - Jesus Christ - God - was angry at it then, I think - my opinion - He is angry now at what is happening in the church today, under the guise of Him - many of the things the church does today is using the Lords name in vain and for all in opposition - is the reason why it is one of the commandments... to do something not of the character or truth of God and call it God... This is why we have so many people thinking that God is not real - the god they have been presented with - is NOT Him and what is presented as Him is Not Him.!
Fearing God - that is a hard one - I could never understand how one could fear God - the all love, flannel board God taught in Sunday School - why on earth would anyone fear Him? But, again, that is not everything of God - He is an angry, vengeful God - .... are any of you parents???? Ok, so say someone is harming your child - this should be easy to think about right now in this thread.... what do you think you would do... well - if one chooses to believe, which I do - that He is your Heavenly Father - He will be very angry at those who do wrong to His children.... though until you might understand this on your own - or never do... I can't argue this with you - my belief here...
As for proving God to be real to you being my job - there are many very detailed posts already within this site that do that in extreme detail, I did not want to be redundant. As for you proving God to be false to me... religion, you don't have to prove to me is false - it is and God says it is... God, I don't see how you possibly could prove Him to be false, many of the people in full support on this site even say so themselves.
As for a back bone, standing up, having guts - I stand alone in my faith and my belief, I do not have a group or organization or titled stance to associate with - I have separated from Church and every group I know of. I would love to find a group of people not afraid to stand for this truth - for it is there, it is just not one you can do by stepping onto someone elses train - you have to forge this one yourself.
And why would I receive miracles? Wow, good question, I am not worthy, I am awe struck at the many of them... as I ask Him... every miracle I have received has been a testimony of Him to someone in my life at that moment to see that He is real and it is not just by chance.... to try to explain them to you would be futile for you did not witness them.
You, like so many others, seem to be making your own god character in your own mind and placeing "miraculous" events in your life in that context.
If you wish to do that...fine.
But if you wish to convince others to do the same you'll need to provide some credible evidence of a god and that your interpretation of a god is the correct one to have.
So you'll need to clarify why you bothered to post here. Just telling us to read the bible without influence isn't going to do it because your still doing that same thing. You are influencing how you see the bible. You're setting yourself up as the authority by which you can judge what is true about it and what is fabricated by man for man's own interests. I could site some stories from it as examples but you should already know some of them.
"...God – the God of the Bible – In Him you will find truth and peace..."
I disagree. I tried to seek the biblegod without anyone else's influence and relying on "his word" and found only intense pain and misery.
"What help would I be to her if I chose the illegal route?"
I know you don't want an answer but, guess what, YOU asked the question...so accept that there may be other children that may need to be protected from this man, not only your daughter. Not that I can know if this man is truly guilty or not. But going by your word alone, there is tons of stuff you can do, LEGALLY, that will help someone else in the future, if not just your daughter. Getting that church to install cameras, for one. Getting other churches to do the same. Getting that church to run background checks. Basic things that will reduce the risk.
The point is that even if you don't choose to act illegally, there is no point in hopeing your god will stop this man from doing anything like this again. YOU have a resposibility to act in some way for the best interests of other, would be, victims.
Don't use your faith as an excuse to do nothing. And stop acting like there is nothing you can do. Yes it isn't something that can be prevented 100% of the time. But you still have to take a stand and reduce the risk!
"I did read Deuteronomy 21-24 and one must take the people of that day and what they were doing on their own"
How are we to know that you are not doing the same? How are we to be sure you're not acting on your own?
As far as believing that god gets angry at people that do bad things to "his children", there isn't one bit of convincing evidence that this is so.
And to imply that we are following others is a strawman argument at best. I am standing on my own in my unbelief in the biblegod. It was through my experiences that showed the biblegod to be false. But it was through the contradictions, illogical propositions, horrible injustices, cruel and evil commands from god, and blatant scientific errors of the bible, that back up my lack of belief.
Now, you came on here to tell us to seek your god...not the one described in the bible but the one you made up in your own head...because he is "proven" to you and to tell us to not follow anyone else.
But you've said nothing that will help us believe what the bible says is even remotly accurate in it's description of the supernatural.
About the only thing you have done is imply that we are following someone else, and that we haven't read the bible without any other influences.
Thanks...Now go do something productive with your time. We are trying to get over some deep brainwashing and pain caused by a false belief in the god of the bible.
Maybe not, but you will likely read again.
S.T. & P...for I am not here to argue my faith or belief
Yes you are, or you would not have posted a follow-up.
S.T. & P...I have mine[faith or belief], you have yours..
No Ma'am; you've misspoken in one regard. True, you may have your "belief" based on "faith". But what we have, is non-belief based on reason. One is not simply the counterpart of the other. To not hold a belief in something requires zero "faith". In other words, it requires zero hope, or wishful thinking..i.e zero "faith", to admit to one's self that there isn't convincing evidence for the existence of something; it only requires intellectual honesty.
S.T. & P.....there is no way I did anything to cause my child to be attacked
and previously...
S.T. & P...And if you ask, why would God allow this – molestations and such… – do you want to be a robot?
Interesting. While, obviously, you didn't intentionally do anything to put your child in harm's way, you'll implicitly defend the perpetrator.
Do you not see that when you use such arguments, that you are essentially saying that the "free will" of the evildoer actually takes a higher priority than the safety of the innocent victim?.. in this case, your own daughter?
How about considering the following simple idea for a "solution" that might make everyone happy---that is, if biblegod and its proponents are so keen on "free will".
How about, if seconds before these molestations occur, your biblegod caused the perpetrator to convulse violently - similar to an epileptic seizure - thus, immobilizing them? This way, their "free will" isn't ever tampered with; they can still choose to commit the unspeakable act, but yet, no child EVER gets molested.
Can you/will you raise any objections to that? After all, if both you, and biblegod, are going to insist that "free will" is necessary; that "robots" are "undesirable", then the above solution solves the problem.... that is, providing said biblegod actually exists, and is "omnipotent"/"omniscient". And certainly you don't deny the latter two, right?
And another thing for you to ponder - if "God", per it's "omniscience", knows what choices we'll make with our "free will", then "God" knows the future - or as Theists like to say - "God has a plan". Well, if that's the case, then we only have the illusion of free will, thus, we are like "robots", anyway.
S.T. & P...As for proving God to be real to you being my job - there are many very detailed posts already within this site that do that in extreme detail, I did not want to be redundant.
I'm sorry, but you cannot decide for others what constitutes "proof", or not. It is your personal opinion that these testimonies "prove god". One thing that is not merely opinion, however, is that you can go to any Muslim website, and see similar testimonies with similar "interventions"; similar "miracles"; similar "healings"; similar "sightings"; similar "answered prayers"...with the difference being that it's all being attributed to "Allah", instead of "Yahweh".
S.T. & P...God, I don't see how you possibly could prove Him to be false, many of the people in full support on this site even say so themselves.
Yes, many people here will tell you that one cannot "disprove God", however, they tell you that in an attempt to point out how absurd the notion is, and how it does nothing to increase the plausibility that such a being exists.
Let's say I believe in Poseiden. Can you "prove" that Poseiden does not exist? No, you cannot. You'd have to be able to simultaniously search the entire universe for my "god", and you'd have to be able to disprove my personal experiences with said "god", which you cannot. Okay...so, because you might readily concede that you cannot prove the non-existence of my "god", that somehow lends credibility to the notion that my "god" exists? Think.
God is not disproven; God is unproven.
It said, press the "Ctrl" key, and then press "page down" key; and it works great; no more having to scroll past 200 comments to post a comment.
Peace, Roger...P.S. Just thought I would post this in case someone else has to do alot of scrolling.
I posted a follow-up to refute false things said or quoted of my original post and respond to that presented to me.
This site is regarding Ex-Christians and I posted my experiences that lead me to this and what my personal thought is on it....
I choose Him. I am an Ex-christian – however, I am a Child of God truly following Jesus the Christ to the best of my ability, learning more every day.
I have given, from my experience, my advice –only a suggestion that one might utilize in their own quest to find what they believe to be true. Their truth.
I have not said anything that your truth is false or that you must follow my truth.
I've received comments in response to my postings, that are incorrect regarding my comments.... you say I am saying things I am not saying, - again, just textbook statements that seem to make you feel better that have nothing to do with the truth I have written for what I have written pertaining to my beliefs or my truths is my own opinion... this you can not argue.
You'll find it hard to ever learn any truth if you don't actually listen to truth presented to you. I am not at all talking about beliefs - just truth - my statements regarding my experience with my daughter - shall I repeat - I went to the police, I went to the church, I did everything legal.... the church has added over $10,000.00 worth of security, they spend $1000's on back ground checks and always have done back-ground checks... (this has nothing to do with being a church – how about a day-care, or school, or youth organization or a store for security of merchandise, a bank… this is the world we live in) - oh, guess what, the money has to come from somewhere - that would be the people who's church it is... but I did much and will continue to raise awareness and pursue the chance of stopping it from happening to someone else.... with that said, interesting - even though I told you everything I did, you still wrote falsely about it and then you encourage others in the falsity... hmmmm makes one wonder about the foundation of one's beliefs or like it has been said - lack of one - "non-belief" - or faith or lack of it - "zero faith" - on other things... so easy to be led astray and jump on the train of someone else.
Zero faith you say... believing the evolution theory - now that takes faith seeing that there is no evidence to prove it - it is again, just "THEORY". The scientific fact proves creation - may I suggest doing some more research. – you’ll find loads of it on the internet.
My belief and faith is based on factual experience in my life - one can not argue that.
Funny thing here - I agree with so much that is said here, certainly not all, so I will reduce to some... all of the religious traditions and followings and changes through the ages... much of them are lead by man and are false... what was so refreshing *for me* to find out when I got rid of all of that (religious trash) is that I did not lose sight of what *I believe* is true and real - the god of the Bible – God - and even more refreshing - He agrees with me that these things are false.
Historically we have been taught that God is all of - the religious trash - and people did / do it all for the sake of or against God... and their following of what man taught them in the bible which actually contradicts the bible... just like most of the post exchanges in this site.
You have your life reasoning, I'll have my god - which to me is God - I'll live my life as I choose, you live your life as you choose.... ahhh free choice. What would we all do with our time if all of us thought the same thing?
An interesting thought comes to mind... do you believe or reason that you have free choice?
Do you think your mental capacity (I don't say that in any condescending way - really - I do mean your mental capacity in the sense that there is much available) so, do you think your mental capacity is able to make your own decision and choose for yourself?
I am going to assume the answer is yes.
So does God - being the god of the bible after taking away all of the religious trash people associate with it.
It was said in a previous post - not mine or in reply to mine -
....the sad thing is that many christians, believe that everything is God's will.
In response to what biblical truth there is to Christian's general belief - it is not that everything is God's will - it is that God's will is the desired path to take and finding that is the challenge people face.
Now don't go saying "biblical truth" is not truth - I said - again -
to what biblical truth there is to Christian's general belief...
one's belief - opinion - choice to think what they want to think - one of biblical following basing this on that which is in The Bible.... their choice of what is true...
Biblical truth - God, Jesus, Satan... Crayola truth - Red, Blue, Green...
Can you prove to me that Green is really Green? Grass is the color most call green, but can you prove that it is green?
Did man call it green and write that it is green so therefore you trust that it is green?
Just posing a thought for you...
It seems that as I read posts here, many of you are taking the stance that one does not have free choice to choose to believe what they experience to be true… that to have no belief, non-belief, zero faith, zero hope is the only right choice.
Now this I do not agree with however I won’t argue with you about it for it is your choice.
Hmm. So, you're not actually seeking anything, you've already found it. Perhaps you should choose a more appropriate pseudonym, something along the lines of "Found the Truth and You Better Listen to Me."
Just a thought.
Just an observation.
your response is completely out of context... this is where false beliefs start.
each day is spent seeking
I have foundational truths that I have found to be *my truths* that *I* believe... and build on them daily.
You can confront my position all that you want but I will disagree with you if you falsly present my position...
not quite sure how I was not of peace
perhaps a textbook assumption of one opposing your view ???
Your posts are interesting, in a chaotic sort of way, but to be honest, I haven't a clue as to your point.
You have a belief in supernatural stuff based on your personal interpretations regarding some non-detailed (here at least) events in your life. Your experiences, in your mind, are vastly superior to all the history of Christianity and all theological interpretations derived from that history. You seem to have a personal disdain for any and all "textbooks" (for some reason) and label any response that is not peppered with pandering agreement with you as closed minded.
Whatever.
You're a Christian. You have your own personal version of Christianity that is outside the generally accepted norm, but you're still a Christian.
So why are you here? What's the point?
Here it is in context:
(and oddly - it proves my point)
You'll find it hard to ever learn any truth if you don't actually listen to truth presented to you. I am not at all talking about beliefs - just truth - my statements regarding my experience with my daughter
how can one argue these truths, I did these things -
- shall I repeat - I went to the police, I went to the church, I did everything legal.... the church has added over $10,000.00 worth of security, they spend $1000's on back ground checks and always have done back-ground checks... (this has nothing to do with being a church – how about a day-care, or school, or youth organization or a store for security of merchandise, a bank… this is the world we live in) - oh, guess what, the money has to come from somewhere - that would be the people who's church it is... but I did much and will continue to raise awareness and pursue the chance of stopping it from happening to someone else....
with that said, interesting - even though I told you everything I did, you still wrote falsely about it and then you encourage others in the falsity... hmmmm makes one wonder about the foundation of one's beliefs or like it has been said - lack of one - "non-belief" - or faith or lack of it - "zero faith" - on other things... so easy to be led astray and jump on the train of someone else.
This proves my point.
Facts out of context, easily followed erroneously if the truth of what was said is not taken in context...
mis-quoted out of context....
it is false.
"text-book" - ok, take away the word textbook and replace with: a standard response / argument that may not even directly pertain to the subject it is attached to, but from previous arguments, it sounds good and has slight correlation so that one not reading in detail would think, yeah, yeah that's it, I'll agree with that because I am not sure what I believe in.
I do not disagree with ancient theology based on the bible as absolute, history and science... *I believe it to be truth* for as much immediate history that has any relevance on you or me or our ancestors for a few generations - religion is false and has led man more from God than to Him because of that which is false. That false religion today is under the name of christianity and for what today is a christian - I am an ex-christian.
So that there is no room for mis-understanding - I do believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, son of Man and He is my Savior. I will live eternally... now where, that is a whole differnt topic.
Again, this is based on my belief that God is real - you asked my point.
webmaster said:
... Your experiences, in your mind, are vastly superior to all the history of Christianity and all theological interpretations derived from that history. ...
superior - no, perhaps open minded to look for other avenues of truth - not already presented.... when finding that one disagrees with the current circumstance, rather than find something already existing to agree with, how about seeking to make up one's own mind with the facts available...
'Funnier thing is, the mere repeating of something over and over and over again means nothing, if the "insight" you're injecting into the discussion, and/or, the actions you're taking, don't coincide with whatever it is you insist you aren't doing in the first place. And IMO, that's exactly the case.
In an attempt to "cut to the chase"..i.e., to get an actual sense of what your "point" would be for posting further here, what follows is my assessment. Please, at any point, tell me where it becomes "textbook", and/or, "assumption" on my part, and I'll gladly reevaluate it. Thanks.
Here we go...
- S.T. & P, you have left the church, but yet, you remain a follower of "Christ" on your own terms....but still yet, you classify yourself an "ex-christian".
(To qualify "ex-Christian", "ex" would imply formerly..as in, former believer/adherent of the teachings of "Christ" through "His written Word", the "Holy Bible". That is, unless you have your own definition for "ex", too. Until it's made clear, "ex-organized religionist" sounds more appropriate, and less misleading)
- S.T. & P, you have nothing to offer as evidence for the existence of this "God", other than your personal testimony/experiences, and you(would/could) kindly offer these - NOT as the Universal Truth - but as your own, personal, Truth.
- S.T. & P, you take the position that those who deny "Christ"..specifically Atheists, more or less take the following position, or one similar:
"Gee, I'm not sure what I believe in, so I'll agree with a 'textbook' Atheist position".
- S.T. & P, you believe our "free will" should precede - in terms of importance - the safety of human kind, including, your own child's saftey.
*Note, I presume the latter, simply because of a point I previously offered for your examination, but you ignored that subject. Here it is again, for your review:
Previously, you said:
".....there is no way I did anything to cause my child to be attacked
and then later you added....
"And if you ask, why would God allow this – molestations and such… – do you want to be a robot?"
For which my response was...
Interesting. While, obviously, you didn't intentionally do anything to put your child in harm's way, you'll implicitly defend the perpetrator.
Then I asked...
"Do you not see that when you use such arguments, that you are essentially saying that the 'free will' of the evildoer actually takes a higher priority than the safety of the innocent victim?.. in this case, your own daughter?"
Is there any reason you don't address this subject?
Recently, you question: Zero faith you say(?)
Concerning the existence of the Christian biblegod, that's correct..ZERO "faith".... zilch; nadda; nil; none.
To be sure - and to illustrate the point so nothing's "out of context" - how much time, thought, or energy do you put into denying the existence of Buddha and Allah, each week? If you answer "none", or, "not too damned much, boomslang", then by the definition of "faith", none is needed to lack belief in those "gods", and thus, none is needed to lack belief in "Yahweh".
You continue: ... believing the evolution theory - now that takes faith seeing that there is no evidence to prove it - it is again, just "THEORY". The scientific fact proves creation - may I suggest doing some more research. – you’ll find loads of it on the internet.
Not surprisingly, here, you exploit your own ignorance on the matter of what is scientific fact, and what is speculation. The Theory of Evolution - like Atomic theory - is both theory, and fact. "Creation" is neither. If this is inaccurate, IYO, please feel free to provide evidence that either Atomic Theory, or the Evolutional theory, are just wild, unsupported "guesses". And BTW, if you should accept this challenge, please........please PROVIDE REFERENCES. Thanks.
OK, got it. Your presupposition is that God is real, therefore certain things that have happened in your life are attributed to your god, and reinforce your presupposition.
Great, got it.
Your personal interpretations based on your previous presuppositions do nothing toward convincing me that your interpretations represent anything other than fanciful wishful thinking on your part. However, I acknowledge your right to believe in fanciful things if you so desire.
I wonder, why does it bother you that others think such thinking is silly? If you are so confident that your private interpretation of reality is representative of some ultimate and apparently undiscovered-by-me truth, what difference does it make to you? What is your point in ranting on and on about your subjective opinions here? I was a Christian for 30 years, had what I once thought were supernatural experiences, which I now disavow as part of an over active imagination fed by my own presuppositions that a god exists. In other words, you aren't talking to someone who doesn't understand your perspective. You are, however, talking to someone who has rejected magical thinking.
You are not ready to abandon your religion. Well, that's fine. I however am no longer interested in self delusion. So, what is your point in posting here? You have stated you are not interested in converting anyone, but you seem to be intent on converting people to accepting your version of reality.
So, again, I ask, what is the point in posting here? For us, Christianity is bunk. Case closed. Unless, of course, you have some verifiable and falsifiable evidence that Christianity is more than imaginative myth, in which case, I expectantly await that evidence.
"I choose Him. I am an Ex-christian – however, I am a Child of God truly following Jesus the Christ..."
Contradiction in terms. You cannot claim to be an Ex-Christian while believing in Jesus. Period. And your preaching is not welcome here.
"You'll find it hard to ever learn any truth if you don't actually listen to truth presented to you."
Fucking arrogant and woefully deluded.
"Believing the evolution theory - now that takes faith... Seeing that there is no evidence to prove it..."
You just insulted thousands of actual scientists, you ignorant bitch. Including My own brother. Evolution is a fact; only the explanation is a 'theory'.
"I did not lose sight of what *I believe* is true and real - the god of the Bible..."
Perhaps you should look up 'true' and 'real' in the dictionary someday.
"He agrees with me that these things are false."
How terribly, terribly convenient for your imaginary friend to agree with you.
Go away.
Can you prove to me that Green is really Green? Grass is the color most call green, but can you prove that it is green?
Did man call it green and write that it is green so therefore you trust that it is green?
---
STP (why does that remind me of an engine additive),
Funny you should ask this question about our perception of COLORS.
When I was younger, I sometimes wondered if the green/blue/red I saw with my eye's was the same color (hue) as everyone else was seeing with their eyes.
Obviously, whatever color something actually is, is not up for debate here.
Unlike in days gone by, we now have instruments that can reveal the exact spectrum of light waves, either from a light source itself, or light being reflected from an object.
Heck, many paint stores can exactly match a chip of paint you bring to them.
e.g. Home Depot
So if there is any difference, it's in the individual eye of each person.
Some folks are color blind and can't see red/green, some can't see colors at all, and some just see them with less intensity than another would.
So yes, what you perceive as a certain shade of green will probably not be the exact same shade another person would see.
Of course, one must define what green is, but that would no longer be a matter of opinion.
Instruments can read a color and then compare it against an accepted standard, and will tell us exactly the color of something.
So, to answer your question, yes we can say with certainty that the grass is green.
You might not see the same shade of green as another, but that doesn't change the reality that the grass is still green.
Your personal experiences of the color of grass, can thus be skewed from the defined standard. Nevertheless, the truth of what color grass is, is not changed one iota by what your own eye see's it as.
Just as god exists, or god doesn't, regardless of your own perception.
If your intent here was to imply that you 'see' god by some special means that we ex-xtians lack, then you must have some special ability that everyone here lacks.
Perhaps your DNA is encoded with some god-antenna, that we all lack?
I do realize that you believe you have found this so called god 'truth', but until you can prove it to a discerning eye, then this truth resides only inside your own brain.
It's very easy to fool oneself into believing the things we wish to exist.
So many believe in many things supernatural just for this very reason, and they are as sure about their truths as you are about your own god believing truths.
If you are so sure you are in direct contact with your god, then it should be a simple matter for you to get some information from him that only a god could know about.
If god is real and is worth his salt, he'll do something like provide you with some future specific event that would be then verified by hearing it reported in the news media.
For instance, ask your personal god the time and place (exactly) where the next major tornado or earthquake will take place.
Let's have a date/time, a town affected, and for bonus points, how many innocent people will lose their lives as a result.
For a true god, this would be a piece of cake, right?
No, it would not be tempting god either, so please don't use that as an excuse, as most do when confronted with having to provide such proof of their god.
If god is real, he has every reason to provide evidence that he exists.
Well, unless your personal god (just like the xtian god), is nothing more than a bratty two year old child who likes this game of hide and seek, a bit too much.
ATF (Who is really tired of subjective "personal testimonies" being used as proof of god)
Interesting.
ST&P: "...when finding that one disagrees with the current circumstance, rather than find something already existing to agree with, how about seeking to make up one's own mind with the facts available..."
Also, interesting, using facts to support ones' thoughts - I like it.
ST&P: "I will live eternally..."
Okay, I'm ready, where is this post-death evidence, facts, or even personal experience(s) to support your "point of view"?
There is "no" post-death fact(s) available by those who have died, from what I understand about "death".
So, what you have is an opinion without a single fact. While you may pull words out of a book, or hold a belief based on what you were told - you received the information from people who were "alive", and giving your "their" opinion about "post-death" circumstance.
Just trying to understand the logic being used to support post-death claims.
Maybe it's just me but the thought of dying but not really ceasing to exist makes me want to slit my wrists (only what would be the point if in fact that was true?).
When I check out I hope to god that the door shuts behind me and doesn't turn into one of those revolving contraptions where I have to make another appearance. That would suck the royal willy. Of course I don't believe for one minute that this is likely to happen because I've been taking my proverbial anti-psychotics since the age of about six or seven.
I am really tired of christian people and their irritating superiority, repressed hatred and repressed sexuality, dumping on the nonbelievers or 'the sane' as I like to call us. They dangle this big 'Members Only Club' in the sky like picky bouncers on the door of some pretentious club that no-one even remotely cool would want to go to anyway. Great guys - but why the hell would I want to hang out with the likes of you anyway?
Heaven - huh, sounds like a strip club anyway.
"But there must be some reason for us being here!" I hear this all the time from my agnostic friends, those people who like to put a bet on both ways just incase. Why must there? And if you want a reason then what about it being our future value as compost?
You, me and everyone else on this poor abused planet are just living organisms. Just like the plants and the insects only the plants and insects are far superior because they actually have a role to fill in the cycle of life. While humans are selfish, disgusting and downright destructive. The only species who kill purely for pleasure, may it be animals or each other. Now why would some divine entity want to reward the human race over every other organism on this earth?
It's pure vanity to think we deserve a prize for being human. We are born, we live and then we rot. That's more than enough for me. What makes you so special?
Though it is not without certainty - green - at one point, man did name it green, perhaps he was wrong and we all follow him and call it green...
This is what you are asking me to prove of God...
ok, I know - the color green exists - we see it, we believe it - whether the color is right or not, what we see exists... - you say God does not...
so here - how about if we switch to the history of the bible - it is historically and scientifically proven to be real - there is no evidence ever proving it to be wrong - theory and ideas, but no fact or evidence, only fact and evidence proving it to be real - again - the internet is full of this information... if you say that there is proof that the bible is false - where? Some of it has YET to be proven, but none is proven false and new evidence proving truth and accuracy continues to be found.
And taking the bible to be true historically and scientifically - there are so many prophecies told in it far before they ever occured - the writings were there prior, and then they occured - many of them... and the prophecies that have not yet happened, it is not that they are false, they have not yet happened... so there is your predictions that you asked for...
and for future ... I'll throw this one out at you... I was moved by His direction, for no other reason - out of So. Calif recently... let's see what happens there in the next year...
yeah, yeah, yeah - I am sure you will mock me on that one - just sharing. Yet it may just be for a reason on a personal level... but just sharing with you what I would share with a "friend" - no, not assuming you are my friend, just being open with you.
You are absolutely right, it is not tempting God to ask Him of such things. He will tell each that asks what they need to know. You are asking me, not Him. I can't ask Him for you, I would be trying to raise myself to be your god, as if I was a go to for one's line to God - that is only Jesus.
**My belief - founded in the words contained within the bible - which are proven to be true.**
- S.T. & P, you take the position that those who deny "Christ"..specifically Atheists, more or less take the following position, or one similar:
"Gee, I'm not sure what I believe in, so I'll agree with a 'textbook' Atheist position".
Not my intention... nor what I said - again - out of context, changed, altered... false.
text book answer as I described, not relating to what was actually said,...
... "one not knowing what to follow" may jump on "any" train and say yeah, yeah, that sounds good... key - one without a stance of what they believe to be true or false being mis-led by "text-book" responses - described earlier. I did not say or intend one firm in their belief of anything - as you implied and added to my words - athiest - nor did I say anything pertaining to anyone's denial or acceptance of Christ - except perhaps that it be one's own choice.
As for your challenge on free will .... I will respond - because I was asked... to be continued...
... Creation, Evolution, Atomic Theory - I am not a scientist and honestly do not understand science enough, I will leave that to the scientists, I can only base my understanding on what they present to me and the culmination of searching facts from all sources - and no, not just the one I think or hope to be true.
Yup, it's real, all right... A real book, that is. Even got one downstairs.
"...There is no evidence ever proving it to be wrong - theory and ideas, but no fact or evidence, only fact and evidence proving it to be real..."
So where's My talking snake?
And actual geological evidence of a global flood (rather than the various, authenticated local floods in the Euphrates/Tigris delta)?
Sorry, ST&P... What you have there is ancient stories. Not proof.
Large portions of the Bible are, in My opinion, dismissible purely on the basis of being far too ridiculous and improbable. If you want to assert outlandish things like people arising from the dead, people turning into pillars of salt, the Red Sea opening up on command, or a dragon knocking 1/3 of the stars out of the sky with its tail, the burden of proof is on you. Give us sound non-Biblical reasons to think such things are actually possible, or retract the "truth" claim.
"...and the prophecies that have not yet happened, it is not that they are false, they have not yet happened..."
Again, how very convenient for your purposes. They could never happen, yet you will continue to insist that they could happen at some indeterminate point in the distant future.
"I am not a scientist and honestly do not understand science enough, I will leave that to the scientists."
Fine with Me. I expect that we'll be hearing no more about abiogenesis, cosmology or evolution from you, then.
I haven't had much time to keep up with what's been going on around here lately, but I just had to inject a question. You said
"[the Bible] is historically and scientifically proven to be real - there is no evidence ever proving it to be wrong - theory and ideas, but no fact or evidence, only fact and evidence proving it to be real - again - the internet is full of this information..." (emphasis added)
Here is my simple question for you: How did you reach the conclusion that there is "no evidence proving it to be wrong"? I can only think of two reasonable replies that you could offer:
1) "Oops, I misspoke. I meant to say 'As far as I know, there is no evidence proving it wrong'"
2) "I have read every book by critical scholars and attended every debate in which the topic is discussed, and I was able to definitively debunk every single claim about contradictions, anachronisms, and falsehoods in the Bible."
Maybe there are other alternatives that I could not think of. In any case, please do tell. Thanks.
Honestly, I haven't seen this much hair-splitting and equivocation by a poster in a long time.
Yes, yes, S.T. & P..."that it be one's OWN choice".[bold and upper case letters added]
Okay, if you are such a proponent of "free indiviual choice", let's see just how well you honor and respect "our choice", shall we? What follows, are some of your quotes, followed by "my choice" of comments:
S.T. & P...So, yes, today – the Bible - is absolute truth to me – if you want to say it contradicts itself, I ask you to read it more without the influence of everything else… do you have anything to lose?
ASS-UMES that because we read the "Bible" and came to a different conclusion than you, that our own understanding was somehow tainted; that our understanding "lacks" something.
Honestly, can you be anymore arrogant or presumptuous?(asked rhetorically)
S.T. & P...Get rid of religion and everything it has ever taught you, any pain or let down it has ever caused you and seek truly God and His word – He is not christianity - christianity the religion is man and very contradictory of Him – God – the God of the Bible
ASS-UMES we didn't "truly" seek "God". More arrogance from Miss "Truth & Peace".
Furthermore, you continually equivocate on what "Christianity" is, and what it isn't.
Let's, once and for all, qualify what it means to be "Christian", and which people make up the "Christian Faith":
Christian:
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
ref: American Heritage
I'm sorry, but your attempt to make "Christ" and "Christianity" contrasting ideas, is about as asinine as saying that "humans" don't make up what's known as humanity. In other words, you are a classic and common example of a Christian who claims that THEY have the "True" interpretation/understanding of what it means to be a "Christian". Bullshit.
S.T. & P...Unfortunately, most of us come to Christianity at such a saddened, depressed, weakened state...
Oh looky, now you are somehow "blessed" with knowing the details of how "most of us" were feeling at some random point in our lives, and thus, how and why "most of us" came to be "Christian". You know what, lady?.. you are one arrogant piece of work. Hint: If you'd stop assuming and actually take the time to read some of the testimonies, you'd see that "most of us" simply "inherited" the family belief system.
Furthermore, for many of us, it was PRECISLEY when we took it upon ourselves to examine the "Word of God", that it became crystal clear that "Christianity"...oh wait, pardon me...I mean, the Teachings of Christ... is, at best, a book of man-made myth, and at worst, a doctrine that extols as Universal Truth, the most sadistic, barbaric, and inhumane "Principles" in known history.
S.T. & P...[the Bible] is historically and scientifically proven to be real..
Scientifically proven? In that case...
- Maybe we should have two light-switches in every room---one to "turn off" the light; one to "turn on" the darkness.
- Perhaps we shouldn't teach young adults to disect frogs in Biology 101, but instead, teach them to disect a snake in an attempt to learn how "vocal cords" work.
- Instead of petting Shamoo on a school field trip, perhaps a few students should be permitted to spend the weekend in Shamoo's digestive tract.
- Instead of seeking medical treatment for illness, perhaps smearing a little bird's blood on the effected area would help.
"Science"???? You've GOT to be kidding.
S.T. & P...As for your challenge on free will .... I will respond - because I was asked... to be continued...
Waiting. But until then, you are biblegod's little robot. Why?.. because he knows what you'll choose, whatever it is. Your "free will" is an illusion, that is, if your biblegod knows the future set of events, including your "choices". Hence, why in that hypothetical scenario, said future would be UNchangable, even by "God".
S.T. & P... Creation, Evolution, Atomic Theory - I am not a scientist and honestly do not understand science enough, I will leave that to the scientists
Guess what?.. I'm not a "scientist" either, but on the other hand, I have educated myself on the difference between "fact", "hypothesis", "theory", and "wild guess". While I suspect you are familiar with the latter, might I kindly suggest you investigate all of the former before continuing to post?
Also, I'm curious about something...would you be willing to disclose your age?
2 questions...
What do you think the options are after death?
What do you think the biblical options are after death?
If I understand correctly as you have told me - Ex-Christians once did follow Christianity, Christ, The Bible - so are on a range from slightly familiar to highly educated of what is in The Bible to answer the biblical option question.
Can we try not to get into great detail as to why on the options, I am just asking for the options you think from different postions of belief or reason.
Do you plan to answer some of the questions that have been put to you? If you answer some of them, I'll be happy to answer yours.
1. No "options" after death. As far as I know, when we die we are unable to take any actions and cease to have a "self" because our brains are dead. I do think that our constituent molecules become part of other things, and some of those things may be sentient; but the self that we possessed in this life is gone forever.
2. The Bible has different perspectives on potential afterlifes, including none at all. I find the Jewish interpretations (such as this one) to be interesting mythology, and more reasonable than the Christian variety. However, I see no basis in reality for either version.
Creation Versus Evolution
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/creation.shtml
and
Science and the Bible
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
a) Cremation
b) Embalming
STP...What do you think the biblical options are after death?
Non-existent...meaning, the "biblical" deity - if such a being exists - knows, a priori, how people will opt where these alleged "options" are concerned...i.e.."Heaven"/"Hell"...or for you liberal Christians... "Heaven", and "eternal separation from God".
In any event....
For quite possibly the hundreth time:
If the "biblical" deity knows the future - including how people will "opt" - then that future is UNchangable(or else, logically, said deity didn't know the future to begin with).... thus, there is no "option". From the "biblical perspective", your "free will" is an illusion. Again, "omniscience" and "omnipotence" are mutually incompatible concepts...at least, for a personal being.
Okay, STP, now that I've/we've answered your questions, do you think you can answer some of ours?
In other words, how does your foot taste?
Hi, again. You may or may not be interested to know that the very first link you provided commits the fallacy of non-sequitur.
From the provided link...
"Two Views of How We Got Here"
1) "The Creation Account"
2) "The Theory of Evolution"
It assumes that if "B" can be shown to be false, then "A" is true, by default.
What soon follows that bit of humor, is this gem:
"After all, if God is really God, He was there at the time and would know how to tell us what happened."
Lol
Um, do yourself, and everyone else a huge favor---please see affirming the consequence. What you have, is circular "logic". It merely affirms that its premise is true, by assuming it's true.
Maybe it should be, Assumianity...or in your case, just, Ass.
good thing I washed my feet today...
though I think that you did understand my point in my comment of ex-christian...
not claiming religious fundamental association with those that call themselves christian today, yet don't follow, and often don't know the bible that they claim is the basis of their christianity.
and no, I don't know it all, but I want to - and seek daily, often obsessively, and I seek knowledge from many sources, not just the bible - or I would have ran away from you all with my tail between my legs right away...
I find much too many contradictions in the religion of chrisianity today versus the biblical account of what a Christian is and what their beliefs should be. Man has both taken out of context and decided to use only that which serves their purposes whether financially, politically, egotistically, ... or.... better yet - as this thread is titled...
to use "Chrisitanity (as) is an excuse to do nothing"
(hence the reason why I began posting here)
or to do whatever they want and call it God.
And the Point... – This religious christianity / these religious christians, is / are not "Authentic to The Word Christianity / Christians" therefore, not the god – God of The Bible…. it is man. Man can go ahead and do whatever they want – but don’t do it and call it what it’s not (like me saying I am and ex-christian)… I hope a great point is made there –and maybe someone chuckled, giggled, laughed !
I think part of the problem is that people follow what someone else says, they follow man or religion when they think they are following God, doing so – oh, I don’t want to use the word… ignorantly - perhaps naively without making decisions for themselves and this allows people to lead falsely as it suits them.
I am not saying any of you and I am not being arrogant or assuming.
and no, I am not expert or all knowing of The Bible - I am - Seeking Truth and Peace - my peace - which happens to be finding truth.
On truth ... for me... when something is not clearly truth such as 1 + 1 = 2, perhaps not yet proved but plenty of information is available to prove much that is associated with it and nothing is available to disprove... I must equate that which I can find to be true by my research of facts available + my own personal experiences to be equal to what I conclude to be my personal truth.
for again, I will use - free will - no robots...
which, yes, I will offer my opinion and thoughts which is both in agreement and disagreement with you... therefore, I must present very carefully, for as I am enjoying the challenge of this school of intelligent attack - I am learning also that I must be very careful in my presentation.... so I may avoid verbally ferocious attacks.
It is not my purpose to convince you to believe my beliefs, I would like to just be able to present by beliefs in a fashion which though you may disagree, I am clearly presenting them and you (anyone who reads this) may have an understanding – not agreement, just understanding of my view outside of the box of modern or historical (often hysterical) for that mater - religious christianity…. and that people will look outside of any box they have been placed in.
(not saying any of you are in a box in fact I think the opposite – don’t attack)
and yes bloomslang you are correct, ...
"ex-organized religionist" sounds more appropriate and less misleading)
thank-you for the suggestion / correction.
I wonder why age matters – looking at others who post, I would guess that there is an age range of approximately 20 years from 30-50, with yes, some younger, some older… I fall about in the middle… and yours?
ST&P herself: "...so here - how about if we switch to the history of the bible - it is historically and scientifically proven to be real - there is no evidence ever proving it to be wrong..."
Hmm... Sounds eerily familiar, n'est-ce pas?
But I digress. Here it comes: Woefully Ignorant and Just Plain Wrong BibleScience!
Pi does not equal 3 (as claimed in 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2). The Egyptians had a far better approximation of the circumference of the circle, long before that verse. One would think that a super-smart, omniscient deity could do better and use a common, simple to understand and more accurate approximation such as 22/7. (Or, at least, look over the Egyptians' shoulders during math class and copy their notes...)
Bats are not birds (as claimed in Deuteronomy 14:11-18). They are mammals.
One cannot (as claimed in Genesis 30:37-39) influence the colour of livestock by placing them in the vicinity of striped poles.
The earth does not sit upon pillars (as claimed in Job 9:6 and Psalm 75:3). Furthermore, the sun does not revolve around the earth (as claimed in Psalm 19:4-6).
One does not think with one's heart (as claimed in Proverbs 23:7, Isaiah 10:7 and Matthew 9:4). We have brains for that kind of thing.
And mustard is not the smallest of seeds, nor does it grow into trees (as claimed in Matthew 13:31-32).
Here's the bottom line, ST&P.
You're wrong about the scientific accuracy of the Bible. Horribly, horribly wrong. The book is very poorly written indeed for something that purports to be the work of a god.
Not only that... Despite your ignorance of science, you're trying to use it as leverage here. This is, in My opinion, a damned unwise tactic at the best of times. You really will have to loosen that grip on your Bible if you want to grasp any of the truths that exist outside it.
Just previous to that STP wrote, "This religious christianity / these religious christians, is / are not "Authentic to The Word Christianity / Christians" therefore, not the god – God of The Bible…. it is man"
STP, didn't MEN write the letters and missives that were eventually gathered together to become the Bible? And didn't men choose the writings that would be bound together into the Bible?
All Christians, even you, are following men. There isn't a single word in your book that was written by a god. It's all written by men.
..::yawn::
I hope you'll forgive me for being underwhelmed over your latest attempt to convince us, yet, one more time, that "Christianity" and "Christ" are somehow contrasting ideas, and that your understanding of biblical scripture is uniquely accurate, and that you, out of MILLIONS of people who also profess to be followers of "Christ" i.e..Christians, are all somehow deluded, and/or, have misunderstood the "Creator of the Universe'" intentions for all of humankind, as delineated in its "Written Word", the "Holy Bible".
Since you are being dull, thoughtless, and redundant, I'll do the same, both for brevity, and because you are begining to bore me. So here you go...
BULLSHIT
thanks for the information, I will look into it...
this is more factual argument than "text-book" answers, well appreciated.
thanks
hey astreja,
thanks for the information, I will look into it...
this is more factual argument than "text-book" answers, well appreciated.
(speaking to any on-lookers)
Hmmm, I have to wonder exactly what "information" she will "look into"? The biblical scripture that Astreja provided....in other words, the "text" from a book(i.e.."text-book") that she provided....well, those quotes, when taken at face value, annihilate the idea that the bible is scientifically "sound".
Surely, Found Truth and Exuding Arrogance(formerly "Seeking Truth and Peace") won't suggest that she never knew that those verses existed, will she?..or wait... she never "thought" about them?.. or wait... "God" told her, personally, what they really meant?
Enjoy your nap, Jim. FYI, I have a beard trimmer attachment for my John Deere® riding lawn mower. Something tells me you are going to need to borrow it when you wake up.
Sincerely, boom'
Though it is not without certainty - green - at one point, man did name it green, perhaps he was wrong and we all follow him and call it green...
-------
STP,
If one has the first pleasure of naming a 'thing', then how could that name itself be wrong?
It's not like this first 'man' was comparing some newly discovered "green" (color) against some standard for that color, already in force.
This is what you are asking me to prove of God...
ok, I know - the color green exists - we see it, we believe it - whether the color is right or not, what we see exists... - you say God does not...
How would one determine if this newly named 'green' color is right or wrong, if there is nothing to compare it to?
As far as your god is concerned, well, god is not some passive color.
A color can't prove itself to be one thing or another, as we ourselves determine such things about colors. We name them and most of us can indeed see colors.
Only a totally color blind person could have any reason to deny that colors exist, but how many would deny it for long, given how easy it is to prove out.
Sooo, if YOU can 'see' god, if you can 'hear' god, and we can not, then you should have enough information about this god to be able to prove to us that he's real.
We have the means to prove other invisible things are real (like radio waves), so what not your god?
For instance, if god is indeed really talking to you, then how hard would it be to get him to tell you some knowledge that isn't available to us by any other means.
If instead, the things your god is saying to you, aren't of this nature but only fit your own personal wishes/agenda, then you have proved nothing at all, see?
How about asking god for something supernatural in YOUR life.
e.g. Ask him to tell you who the next 10 phone calls will be from, in perfect order, and with the exact times of the calls.
You then write down what god tells you (as he for sure will answer you, right) and see if it happens.
I ask you to do this, because you seem to think god will not do anything for us here, unless we ourselves ask him, and not have you--on our behalf ask him, correct?
I'll be waiting to hear the results of this personal little test, okay?
so here - how about if we switch to the history of the bible - it is historically and scientifically proven to be real - there is no evidence ever proving it to be wrong - theory and ideas, but no fact or evidence, only fact and evidence proving it to be real - again - the internet is full of this information... if you say that there is proof that the bible is false - where? Some of it has YET to be proven, but none is proven false and new evidence proving truth and accuracy continues to be found.
Have you ever bothered to research how your bible book came to be??
How much evidence (outside your bible) do you have to prove jesus was not only a real person, but actually had masses of followers and performed all those miracles and then was hung to die on a cross and suddenly was alive again????
Frankly, there is almost no evidence for your jesus existence outside this bible book you put so much trust in.
Go ahead, just try and find some jesus evidence for us, okay?
And taking the bible to be true historically and scientifically - there are so many prophecies told in it far before they ever occured - the writings were there prior, and then they occured - many of them... and the prophecies that have not yet happened, it is not that they are false, they have not yet happened... so there is your predictions that you asked for...
We've had many discussions here on this site, about bible prophecies and why such god-evidence is greatly flawed.
How easy would it be, to make up stories that would include some fortune telling and SAYING it came true in that same story?
Who verified all these fulfilled prophecies?
Was the jewish news media right there on the spot perhaps?
No, you believe they came true because you WISH to STP, nothing more.
"and for future ... I'll throw this one out at you... I was moved by His direction, for no other reason - out of So. Calif recently... let's see what happens there in the next year... "
So let me guess, you moved on god's command because you perhaps think some disaster will strike CA?
Let me see, have there been any disasters in CA in it's history, hmmm.
Oh yeah, things like earthquakes, fire storms, mud slides coupled with massive flooding and sink holes, but no, other than those things, it's a darn safe place to live.
So what do you suppose the chances are that some disaster will strike CA again and when it does, you will feel certain god was looking after YOU, but at the same time, everyone else who will be affected are just chop liver to god, yes?
"yeah, yeah, yeah - I am sure you will mock me on that one - just sharing. Yet it may just be for a reason on a personal level... but just sharing with you what I would share with a "friend" - no, not assuming you are my friend, just being open with you."
You'll have to do MUCH better than this type of personal 'miracle' I'm afraid.
Perhaps you witnessed god restoring some cut off limbs, or something of that magnitude?
"You are absolutely right, it is not tempting God to ask Him of such things. He will tell each that asks what they need to know. You are asking me, not Him. I can't ask Him for you, I would be trying to raise myself to be your god, as if I was a go to for one's line to God - that is only Jesus."
So let me understand you here.
Many folks pray for another person's well being, yes?
So if god won't do something for me because you asked him, then why bother praying for another at all?
Why would this super duper god ignore MY request to hand over some real proof to YOU, in order to win back some former xtains here?
It's not like I'm asking this bratty-god-toddler to come to dinner at my house, right.
**My belief - founded in the words contained within the bible - which are proven to be true.**
Yes, STP, it is your BELIEF, based on faith alone.
You use the word here "proven".
I would disagree and say god has NOT proven anything to you at all.
It is your interpretation of some life events, that you attribute to some supernatural force (aka god) that is your driving proof of his existence.
God says in your bible book, that you can move a mountain, does he not?
Okay, ask your god to raise your car in the air...Ohhhh about 12 feet should be enough for proof to us.
Oh, and no fair using your mechanics hydraulic life either (just had to make that clear is all)
Now what type of excuse will you come back with, where your god failed to do this simple god-like task for us?
Thou shall not tempt etc?
Or, perhaps again you'll say god will know it's for ME and refuse to perform this circus act?
Just find any super trick like this to ask your god to do, just to prove it to YOURSELF.
See what excuses your god will 'speak' to you, in order to not do anything this verifiable.
He'll instead, continue to do TINY tricks that could easily come from chance alone, right?
How long should I wait for this god trick to happen, hmmmm?
ATF (Who wonders why it's so dang EASY to convince oneself of personal miracles, in this modern age)
p.s to STP's personal god
Give me the winning lotto numbers for this weeks drawing and I'll donate the winnings to whatever charity you deem appropriate....OK GOD????
In response to wm
It is pretty obvious to everyone that man physically wrote the bible. I don't think anyone questions or argues that.
How they got the inspiration was not at all my post, point or argument --
- yet again, quoting out of context to make a point having nothing to do with the words said… … “text-book” response – does not pertain to the quotes used….. ... mis-leading …
-
my point exactly…
I think clearly made.
Whether one chooses to follow the god of the bible, the god “Poseiden”, no god… etc. –
I think: it is important that one seeks for oneself and not take what someone else tells you (is in the book – any book)… for it may be out of context and false..
…. Sigh, roll your eyes, yell at the computer screen… I am going to tell a story…
What if I said this is the story of David from the bible…
There once was this young man named David, he was a shepherd boy. He had the opportunity to become king of Neyland, a far away city. In order to be nominated to be king of Neyland one had to have long hair. David grew his hair all of his life while guarding his flock. David had a girlfriend…. She was afraid he would leave her to be king. One night while he was sleeping, she cut off his hair so he would not leave her. David spent the rest of his life growing his hair back so that he could once again be nominated to be King of Neyland. Finally, in his old age, David did become king.
So now I would like to “fictionally” preach to you on this story…
Nutshell… the city of Neyland loves long hair so much… be like David, be wise… we can learn from him… that if you just grow your hair, you will be King.
I am going to guess that most of you who have knowledge of the bible know this to be not what is said in the bible… but I would bet that there are people that could be told this story and believe it to be what is written and follow it for years without ever researching…. what the bible says for themselves.
Now, what if I suggest this…
- Not preaching here – expressing an outside of the box opinion / view..
John 3:16
I am going to guess that you all know this one… and you likely just quoted it because of your knowledge…
Exact Bible Quote:
John 3:16 King James Version
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
…. Ok, think back to church and the days of being a Christian… what does this mean?
Back to David in Neyland…
Growing long hair does not constitute being King, it results in the possibility of being king…
Back to John 3:16 – believing in His son results in not perishing but having everlasting life – this does not say go to heaven – it just says everlasting life
So for those of you who reason that you will die and become compost and you do not believe in Jesus… the bible in my understanding confirms your reasoning to be absolutely true and I agree with you based on the bible.
1 John 5;12 King James Version
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
And in full context – the life talked about is eternal life.
Biblically – for those who have ever believed it to be true – I don’t see that believing in Jesus puts one in heaven….
Where you go is addressed in many other verses,…. I am not here to preach.
And my personal opinion … based on that which I read in the bible – it is not the heaven in the sky… so often thought because it is taught…. And I don’t see anywhere in the bible that says that people who believe in Jesus and have died are now in heaven… that… oh, we will miss aunt so and so but we know she is in heaven with Jesus / God… I don’t see it in the bible anywhere.
Now my question to you:
Have any of you ever thought or been taught this view when you were Christians?
I am assuming from the attacks I get that most of you have done great biblical research and whether you find it to be truth or fiction – you would have an idea on this.
Astreja, I started research of what facts you have given, not in order, I chose the mustard seed for I did a small study on it a few years ago so it drew my interest the most…
Knowing first that it is a parable, I found this interesting “interpretation” – no, not fact – but remember – parable…
Because you challenge me, it drives me to seek more information…
Yet honestly, I don’t want to argue to try and change your thoughts, … you can believe anything you want and I respect that.
So here it is, and I find the ending very interesting based on what I just was writing prior to researching the mustard seed growing into a tree… ahhh – this is what we bible believing followers of God and Jesus Christ call interesting confirmation. Though, I am sure you will certainly disagree and call it something else – and that is fine.
Quote from: The Parable of the Mustard Seed
http://www.centeringprayer.com/lisieux/lisieux02.htm
by Fr. Thomas Keating
“if you expect that the world is going to be converted to Jesus Christ--you are mistaken; it isn't going to happen. What the Gospel is interested in is you. Not what you can do; just plain you.’
Then in that case, you are blathering on about stuff that primitive, superstitious human beings wrote. Human beings (men) who believed all disease was caused by either a god or a devil, who thought the Earth was the center of the universe, who thought flying chariots, talking snakes, floating ax heads, three-day weekends in a fish's belly, and all kinds of other silly stuff was reality, and who were sure that women were inferior to men.
You claim you are not a Christian,or that you are out to convert, but all you do is quote your textbook (the buy-bull) in fundamentalist fashion and post links to ridiculous, fundie websites.
It's becoming obvious to me that you are nothing more than a Christian troll, more than likely one of our regulars with a new name.
To all: Isn't Christian fanaticism fascinating? It sure tempts me to return to the fold, doesn't it you? (Heavy sarcasm here.)
ATF For instance, if god is indeed really talking to you, then how hard would it be to get him to tell you some knowledge that isn't available to us by any other means.
I do, but since the knowledge is not available to you by any other means... you don't believe it. And it is not what you want to hear.
ATF You'll have to do MUCH better than this type of personal 'miracle' I'm afraid.
Perhaps you witnessed god restoring some cut off limbs, or something of that magnitude?
when I was a child... my family was on vacation... car, pulling a very small camping trailer.... semi truck driver fell asleep driving and ran over the trailer completely, the grill of the semi truck stopped right at the back window... completely smashing the back end of the car... every single police, investigator, highway patrol... reports found no evidence possible that the driver EVER put his brakes on.... (how did the truck stop - they all wonder) none of us in the car were injured AND - our two dogs that were in the trailer that was completely smashed to shreds of nothing - our dogs were alive.... roaming the desert lost and confused, but without injury...
As a young adult I had cancer... doctor(s) insisted on immediate surgery that would have made my chances of having children by natural means limited... I told the doctors that I believe God can heal me... doctors - skeptical and in disagreement... fine, but you need to be back here in 3 weeks and we will move forward... 3 weeks later, no cancer ... 15 years later, no cancer, a family of children...
want another... I had a terrible accident... told I would never regain use of my arm..., never be able to lift... again, told the doctors, you do not know who you are dealing with, I have a God that can move mountains and this is one of them that He will move... doctors.. yeah, yeah.. but it is not going to happen... 1 year later... full medical release 100% healed... and they said it was impossible...
oh but wait, you want proof right, or you want to write it off as something else... - guess what, these miracles were not for you or for me - they were for a witness to those doctors, police, truck driver... and others witnessing the miracles... they just happened to be blessings in my life.
My life is full of them... why me.. I am open to receive them, and I ask God to use me for what ever reason He wants to witness to others... and let my life be one that others can see Him in.
In regards to praying for you - of course I can pray for you... however, I can't pray for your desire, only His....
You can do things any way you want to, but if you want Him involved you'll have to play by His rules not yours - an ex-christian should know, unless you did not really know His ways only that led by a religious organization... or hypocritical parents or ....
And to tell you.. oh, I will pray for you - that would be insulting and disrespectful... if you want something directly from God - you need to ask Him yourself.... and maybe listen for His response - His way, not yours.
And if you do want me to pray for you, I will, but again, His will not yours or mine.
Hey, I just thought of another miracle of many... on my way to a Christmas eve candlelight service, I am at a red light of a busy intersection of a highway, in lane to turn left on green... drunk driver - driving in the lane to go through the intersection at the last minute swerves into my lane and rear ends my small car at about 45 miles per hour, again, never hitting his brakes... none of us were injured, made it to the church a little late, but no injuries... I knew that I was the brakes God used for the drunks' car or he would have gone into the busy 50mph intersection and caused a huge accident... possibly killing himself or others... on Christmas Eve... When my car went to the repair shop, they wondered how long I must have been in the hospital and how bad we were injured... with the damage done to my vehicle, how could someone walk away without... a single injury... I got to share this miracle with them too :-)... and to add to it, the person in the back seat of the car, he was not a christian - did not go to church, his immediate reaction.. oh, I am hurt.. oh, wait a second, I am not, how is this possible.. needless to say.. He accepted Jesus as his savior shortly after that....
I wonder if it ever occurred to you to thank the automotive engineers who invented welded steel frames. They save plenty of lives. They are designed to keep the occupants safe, especially in front and rear collisions where the rest of the car can absorb impact. Why do you think your automotive close calls are attributable to anything more than good engineering?
Also, do you wonder why god would decide to spare the lives of dogs but not tens of thousands of people swept away by tsunamis? Pardon me for saying so, but your stories strike me as pure hubris.
JA: "I wonder if it ever occurred to you to thank the automotive engineers who invented welded steel frames. They save plenty of lives."
Yes, thankfully, they do save plenty of lives...
I think the extreme of the accidents I told speak for themselves....
let's see .. semi truck, no brakes, small car, 1970's, add to it we did not wear seat belts, 3 small children in the back seat and a SEMI truck grill stops INCHES - maybe 6" maybe 8" - hey, I'll even give it a foot, from thier heads... remember - No trace of the brakes ever being used to stop the truck - oh, the fully loaded semi truck...
and for the dogs - we cried and cried and cried for them, and prayed - little children - crying and praying, please God, let our dogs be ok... oh, and low and behold, after a length of time.. they come walking out of the desert... unharmed... it just occured to me, this may have been yet another miracle... wow, God is So Great!!!
...for the dogs, no, for the kids praying and crying out to God yes....
and for those who witnessed, researched and investigated it...
thanks Jim Arvo for asking me this question, I had never thought about that aspect of it all... wow!
Automotive technology or miracle... I think miracle and give God the Glory!
Automotive safety technology can only save one from so much in an accident - how about injuries that are caused from the force of the impact - ones that will literally tear apart a small child at their joints even if the welded steel frame protects them from being touched physically, the force can cause immeasurable injuries on it's own...
how about medical miracles... and healing...
"pure hubris"
(excessive pride and ambition that usually leads to the downfall of a hero in classical tragedy)
wow, you equate me to a hero... but pride.... how is that possible since I don't claim that anything is by my doing, the exact opposite.
perhaps some are too prideful to see something outside of the box they are in...
and how about all of the "miracles" of the people who made it in the tsunamies??? you have seen record of those haven't you? actual video footage...
If you are on some kind of mission to TURN an atheist then you are completely wasting your time. People are here because they want to communicate their dissatisfaction with christianity AND christians.
Go post your tragic little car crash stories on a god friendly site where you can theoretically wank off to your hearts content with all the other little fantasists.
Jim Arvo is absolutely correct, you are an arrogant SOB. SOB = son of a bitch, and no I don't need the dictionary translation thanks. Just as I am sure Jim didn't need the word hubris defined.
And if you were at all responsible you wouldn't have driven without seat belts and without securing the children in your car. You were lucky alright, lucky that you haven't got their deaths aren't on your conscience. Now get lost!
I have no idea what you mean by "supposed to" in this context. Supposed by whom or by what? I certaintly don't suppose it, as it clearly is not the case. All people eventually die. If you would like to restate your question in a way I can understand it, I'll try again to answer. (Reminder: you still have not responded to the questions I put to you in my first post in this thread.)
STP: "I think the extreme of the accidents I told speak for themselves...."
This is how I interpret your statement. "I, STP, have surmised that the circumstances of the accident(s) were such that there is no possible physical explanation. My understanding of materials, structures, and classical physics enable me to accurately assess the situation and deem it a miracle." If you intend something else, you'll need to clarify. (By the way, how far was the car pushed by the truck?)
STP: "thanks Jim Arvo for asking me this question, I had never thought about that aspect of it all... wow!"
I look forward to your answer (sarcasm returned).
STP: "Automotive technology or miracle... I think miracle and give God the Glory!"
Why not thank Allah? Why not thank a lucky rabbit's foot?
STP: "Automotive safety technology can only save one from so much in an accident - how about injuries that are caused from the force of the impact -"
I fail to see the point of this. No design is 100% safe, and yes, being thrown about inside the car can also be fatal. So what? You want me to trust your assessment of the situation and attribute it to the creator of the universe intervening rather than to a combination of good engineering, fortuitous circumstances (i.e. luck), and probably a bit of confabulation if not exaggeration on your part. (I wouldn't be surprised if it took several retellings for 6' to become 6", or for the truck to become fully loaded. I'm not calling you a liar--just human.)
STP: "wow, you equate me to a hero... but pride.... how is that possible since I don't claim that anything is by my doing, the exact opposite."
You claim that an infinitely powerful being is acting on your behalf. You see things as being deliberately manipulated so as to benefit you personally while millions starve and die other horrible deaths. Yes, I call that hubris.
"And if you were at all responsible you wouldn't have driven without seat belts and without securing the children in your car. You were lucky alright, lucky that you haven't got their deaths aren't on your conscience. Now get lost!"
boy, some people don't get the whole out of context, false quote thing... in this case it happens to be so far off...
in the 70's, I was a child in the back seat of the car - people did not wear seat belts... many cars did not have them.
as has been said to me... how does that foot taste?
why do I keep posting? I am asked questions and asked for responses, and then asked for responses yet again... over and over again...
honestly, I am about done unless someone should ask me a question I feel I should reply to.... (not angry and attacking)
Answering boomslang -
free will ... I think is made up of ... kind of everything else... a bit of different perspectives, not just one sided...
I don't have a nutshell answer to give and don't want to argue about it but would rather discuss it with someone who wants to do it joyfully, sharing their opinions in a friendly manner.
JA:
"STP: "thanks Jim Arvo for asking me this question, I had never thought about that aspect of it all... wow!"
I look forward to your answer (sarcasm returned)."
I don't know the distance it was pushed...
and I did not mean it with sarcasm, I was absolutely serious that I am thankful you asked that question about the dogs and I thought about it to answer your question, it was your question that led me to see a whole new miracle in the situation and how God showed Himself to children crying out to Him... it took me this long to realize it.
As for your first question:
JA:
"Here is my simple question for you: How did you reach the conclusion that there is "no evidence proving it to be wrong"?"
I choose your first offer of an answer -
"1) "Oops, I misspoke. I meant to say 'As far as I know, there is no evidence proving it wrong'""
and I believe I have answered that in other posts saying how I find what I know to be truth and I also repeated that what I say is my thougths, beliefs, opinions... based on all I know factual and by experience.
astreja asks:
"So where's My talking snake?"
Boomslang
I prefer friendly intelligent open minded conversation and exchange of ideas - whether different or the same.
I will say, I do appreciate the intelligence of SOME of you.
"You see things as being deliberately manipulated so as to benefit you personally"
to benefit me personally...??? car accidents, injuries, cancer...
did I claim those benefit me?
child molested...
benefit me personally... I think you have me confused with "other christians" claiming their god makes them rich because they deserve it...
back to the child molested - no not miracle... but why God would let it happen - because I would listen to God on how to handle it...
very horrible but yes, there have been and I do believe there will be very many more benefits that will come out of it - though yes... very horrible... the way it has changed many people in a positive way and the things I have done and will do in the future will hopefully stop many other children from getting molested.. perhaps because I would not sit silent about it... another child not molested ... miracle.
so this Jim Arvo, I must absolutely disagree with you that I believe these things by anyway benefit me personally......... some have put my life through living hell, however, the end result brings blessing to others and helps me to grow and learn things in ways I never imagined.
Through the valley of the shadow of death, I am not alone, He is with me... and the valley is only so big.
Pride, arrogance, benefitting myself ... I disagree.
(falls off chair giggling) Good one. But I don't think Boom' is *My* talking snake...
On the subject of intelligence, my you are a very judgmental little christian aren't you! But surely someone so out of touch with reality that they believe in 'miracles from god' can hardly be called intelligent! Or do we have a differing definition of the word. My definition includes "sound thought, or good judgment"
you said "why do I keep posting? I am asked questions and asked for responses, and then asked for responses yet again... over and over again..."
You are asked questions because you insist on posting religious nonsense on an atheist blog. Seeing as you ignore most of those questions anyway, please don't feel obliged to stay around on our account.
And yes, some of us do react with sarcasm and irritability to your postings. That is because this site exists because of people like you. People who have bullied us with their belief system, who have judged and belittled us for our choices. We had the strength and clarity of mind to break free and now we have a place to come and talk with like minded individuals. And yet here you are, the proverbial street preacher, judging, goading and generally confirming for everyone here why they left the church in the first place.
When I said 'get lost' what I really meant was 'please refrain from posting your christian babble on this ex-christian blog site"
Are you being deliberately dense? Did you not claim god's hand in allowing you escape harm multiple times? Did you not claim god's hand in miraculously curing your cancer? Did you not "thank god" for these interventions? Were these interventions not "miraculous," in your view, because they required physical laws to be superseded in order to preserve your life? Can you please face the question squarely? Why do you believe god does these favors for you (or, perhaps, for the sake of bystanders) but then allows thousands of children to die horrible deaths by cancer and Ebola and starvation and abuse? What makes you think that a greater good will come of such tragedies, or that god's job is to apply such a facile calculus (e.g. one rape to prevent two others)? What reason, that is, other than to put a supernatural gloss on purely natural events, and to rescue your chosen deity from any culpability?
as for the dogs... and the desert -
the accident happened on the highway ... in the desert.
yes, indoctrinated at a young age by a ton of hypocrits and teachings that were not what God said at all, but served the purposes of man... parents, church, religion... on it goes into government... that made me "fall away" over and over again as I followed them... but through many tough times in my life when I had no one else to trust, lean on, help... , it was God that helped me through them... finally, I realized it was God *I* needed and needed to follow, not all of the others.
My belief.
One last thing... based on the questions asked of me by JA...
Can you please face the question squarely?
*I'll try...
Why do you believe god does these favors for you (or, perhaps, for the sake of bystanders)
*to witness to maybe even just one person - that one person at that moment who witnessed it or someone else in the future when I would give testimony of the miracle of God and not say it was luck...
JA
"but then allows thousands of children to die horrible deaths by cancer and Ebola and starvation and abuse?"
*God gave this world over to Satan and he is ruler at this time....
JA
"What makes you think that a greater good will come of such tragedies,"
*well, first, I don't think He makes all things happen - another mis-guided belief that He is in control of all things..., he does not make all things happen... when one is taught that God is all in control of everything, then they think He does these things and how could this all controlling God do these things or allow them... and people walk away from God rather than walk away from religion.
JA
"or that god's job is to apply such a facile calculus (e.g. one rape to prevent two others)?"
He does not make the one happen, but how He can solve the problems caused by the first and then help others by being able to use someone who has given Him control of their life, (for then He *might* be in control - see below) .... perhaps two or ten or fifty, or maybe even just one other rape could be stopped that could have a worse affect on the person it therefore did not happened to. Or the people involved with the first one can help someone else heal emotionally, or the way someone deals with the first one is testimony of the heart of God rather than that of man...
Again, to not mis-lead - MY Belief:
God is not in control of this world, he is in control of that which we allow Him..., I don't have the verse right now but He tells in the bible that he handed this world over to Satan... then one day - Jesus will come back to rule again. Only those that give their life to Him is He in control of and then, only when they let Him be in control and that can change from minute to minute... I don't think it is a one time thing.
and I think this answers the free will question a little bit more from my perspective.
Any more questions?
Help me to get this straight. God does not help the children who die of cancer and Ebola because he "gave the world over to Satan". And you think this makes god look good? Suppose I said "I didn't murder that child, I simply handed her over to someone else who did"? Would you think me a kind and loving person? Suppose further that I said I did so because someone else disobeyed me (i.e. the guilt by proxy that Christianity is so fond of). Does any of that make the slightest sense to you? I hope not. Why do you worship what by all accounts would be a sociopathic monster? One does not demonstrate "love" by willfully placing the object of one's affection in a position of being harmed. For that matter, one does not demonstrate love by spilling blood, condoning genocide, rape, infanticide, slavery, and stonings, nor any of the other ghastly diversions your fabled god seems to relish.
As for my other questions, you've rather clumsily dodged most of them. I never claimed that god controls everything; I simply asked you why he chooses to do favors for you and not thousands of others in desperate need. Do you seriously mean to suggest that he comes to the aid of all Christians, but allows tragedies to befall non-Christians? If so, then I'd like to see some statistics on that. As far as I can tell, Christians and non-Christians have the same mortality statistics.
As for the dogs, I asked if you were curious as to HOW THEY ENDED UP IN THE DESERT, as opposed to being crushed in the trailer. Do you wonder HOW god accomplished that? Did he bring them back to life as a result of prayer? Did he create them anew? Did he miraculously transport them? Did he make them impervious to injury? Do you understand my question? (Actually, I think you've already demonstrated that you are completely incurious about it, but you can try to persuade me otherwise.)
Formerly, "STP": "Boomslang."
astreja fires back...(falls off chair giggling) Good one. But I don't think Boom' is *My* talking snake...
I feel a bit strange having to clarify this, but I'm not really a talking snake; snakes don't talk. On the other hand, I think we may've found that domestic talking 'ass....
Found Truth and Exuding Arrogance...
Answering boomslang -
free will ... I think is made up of ... kind of everything else... a bit of different perspectives, not just one sided...I don't have a nutshell answer to give and don't want to argue about it but would rather discuss it with someone who wants to do it joyfully, sharing their opinions in a friendly manner.
I hope you'll forgive me, but I haven't clue what the hell you just said---and by the looks of things, I don't think you do either, in which case, I wouldn't see how you could possibly solve the currently unsolved "omniscience"/"omnipotence" dilemma concerning "free will", regardless of how "friendly" the discussion is.
*And FYI, it's kind of hard to be "joyful" with someone who seems to simultaniously exude equal parts arrogance, and ignorance. Frankly, it's like nails on the chalkboard.
Found Truth and Exuding Arrogance interjects...in the 70's, I was a child in the back seat of the car - people did not wear seat belts... many cars did not have them.
Amazing. Here's my observation: If biblegod is such an adept "Prophet"..i.e.."predictor of the future" - and in conjunction, if he is so worried about the really important things in life...you know, like whether I eat shellfish, or have some extra skin on my penis - and in conjunction with that, if he is so keen on communicating with people in "dreams", or "visions", then you'd think he would've forseen transportation by automobile, and at some point, appeared to Henry Ford in a "dream", and uttered, "YOU MUST EQUIP THOSE CARS WITH SEAT BELTS!" After all, to do so would be the economy of "miracle working", would it not?
Oh, but no, for some reason, instead, biblegod likes to "save" one out of every ten thousand people who would die in automobile accidents, just to prove he can work "miracles". Boy-o-boy....miraculous, I tell you!...simply miraculous! Praise the Lord!
God gave the world over to Satan, because of free will - Man first choosing to separate himself from God...
as for the dogs, how could one possibly question and get an answer how... and if it happened to you would it really matter how or just that you had them... it happened and there is no way *I see how* to explain it without using the word miracle... even at first impact of the semi on the rear of the trailer if it somehow blew out the side of the trailer and blew the dogs out into the desert - would that not somehow be a miracle.. I can guess your answer, some law of science.
and actually, I do think he gives non-christians miracles as well, hoping one day they will notice it is Him.
Look out, He just might touch your life tomorrow, or maybe today.... never mind that it would be like telling you I will pray for you to a God you don't believe in - insulting.
"I feel a bit strange having to clarify this, but I'm not really a talking snake; snakes don't talk."
boomslang is:
a relatively small, venomous colubrid snake
to me, that is a talking snake. ;-)
ARE YOU CURIOUS HOW GOD DID IT?
I did not ask you to explain it. I specifically asked, multiple times, if you were curious. As I've said, you've made it abundantly clear that you were not and apparently are not. If you exhibit zero curiosity even within the context of your own fervently-held beliefs, then I'd wager you have zero curiosity about possible naturalistic explanations either. This, I'm afraid, completely undermines your claims. You want to believe they are miracles, which completely colors how you perceived them and how you recall them. You have no motivation to look for alternative explanations, so you will not find them. Sorry... what you have to say therefore carries no weight with me.
Are we done now?
back to the dogs...
since I offered a possible way of how it may have happened - side blows out and dogs are thrown into the desert... .... at - I am assuming 50 plus miles per hour - seeing that it was on the highway... (I think highway speeds have risen over the years??)
so anyhow, having given a possible way it could have happened, I must then have put some thought into it...
I did not see it happen, I know I got my dogs - and yes, yet again, I give the credit to God - whether you can put some scientific explaination to it or not... I still say God.
And directly with much thought ...
I honestly can't say I am "curious"
- the word does not fit, I tried thinking about it over and over again... am I curious, am I, should I be? (asking myself, not you) - no Jim, I am not curious.
So why do I say God did it and all of the other miracles in my life... and why do I think I get so many of these miracles that maybe others don't get...
I have faith, rather than being curious, I give Him credit for all of these things and making Him happy gives me peace....
oddly enough, this was just delivered to my in-box...
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb 11:5-6).
Signing Off...
Seeking Truth and Peace
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb 11:5-6).[bold added]
A couple of last thoughts for the impenetrably ignorant....
"Faith"
1) If we, as former believers, or people who never believed to begin with, don't have "Faith" that the "Holy Bible" is the inspired intentions and desires from the "Creator of the Universe" that it claims to be, then only a small amount of common sense should reveal that quoting from said source would be utterly, and entirely, useless. (Duh?)
2) For those who do have "Faith" that said source is, in fact, the wishes and desires from the Creator of Universe, but then they attempt to support this with little anacdotal stories, and/or, "evidence" with from within the very same source that suggests we must have "Faith", then that illustrates blatant hypocracy, and contradicts the premise of "Faith".
Christianity is insanity.
(or, if you prefer---for you "exchristians" who still follow the teachings of "Christ", the "teachings of Christ" are insane)
STP said "no Jim, I am not curious."
Well, THANK YOU for that direct answer! This is precisely why I discount what you have to say. I view being incurious as a species of credulity.
STP continued "I have faith, rather than being curious,.... "
Faith, not curiosity. Bingo.
STP quotes Hebrews 11:6 (NIV): "And without faith it is impossible to please God,...".
Of course, it would never occur to you to question whether there is in fact such a being, right? Right. Faith, not curiosity. Bye bye.
It strikes me, that beyond neural shifting states of perception, which reflects curiosity at work in one's nature, that one may legitimately not have a changing mental state, and are truly incurious - the lack of an ability to doubt, is a side effect of being omniscient.
If feigned; ignore the deception.
If trained; ignore the parrot.
If both; ignore the deceptive parrot.
If omniscient; ignoring them won't be either rude or surprising.