I suppose that I should not give up on God, but...
Sent in by Amy
I used to be a devout practicing Christian. It didn't take long before I realized that Christians are basically no different than anyone who isn't a Christian. People are still just people no matter what. The problem that I personally found in Christianity was that the people I had in my life who claimed Christianity took it to a whole different level. I found my life being controlled and manipulated all "in the name of God," and the pastor made decisions that directed how my life went while saying that he had been ordained by God to do so and that I would be going against the Lord if I refused to comply. It wasn't too long before I escaped that torturous environment.
Now I'm out here on my own, and I've never felt so lonely. I stand here, wishing I could have the good things about Christianity in my life but not believing I am strong enough to chance the bad stuff. Walking into a new church is like walking on a field of land mines. You never know when somethings going to, figuratively speaking, blow up in the name of God and His Word.
The worst thing about this is that I have turned very bitter toward God for this. I read the book of Job and found that he mentioned some variation of the word "bitter" in each turn that he talked except for one. Job knew what it felt like to be bitter toward a God that seemed to have let him down. Christian Bible fundamentalists will scream "but it was the devil!" I say that the devil could not do anything without God's permission first, as the story goes; who then is really responsible for letting a deranged demon maniac torture his own child? While you're thinking about that one, think on this one: God does it to each of us every single day too. I confess that I am pissed at Him for this. As much as I wish I could love Him, there is this barrier that I can't get beyond, this lack of trust between us for that reason.
I suppose that I should not give up on God, but then, I don't have anywhere else to go, do I? Who is going to stand up for me to Him? Job asked the same thing, and even though my life circumstances now don't compare evenly with Job's, it doesn't make my pain any less tormenting for me.
I can't be the only one who's pissed off about that, but I'm probably one of the few who has the guts to admit it. If not, speak out. In a demented way, I would find comfort in knowing that I am not alone.
I used to be a devout practicing Christian. It didn't take long before I realized that Christians are basically no different than anyone who isn't a Christian. People are still just people no matter what. The problem that I personally found in Christianity was that the people I had in my life who claimed Christianity took it to a whole different level. I found my life being controlled and manipulated all "in the name of God," and the pastor made decisions that directed how my life went while saying that he had been ordained by God to do so and that I would be going against the Lord if I refused to comply. It wasn't too long before I escaped that torturous environment.
Now I'm out here on my own, and I've never felt so lonely. I stand here, wishing I could have the good things about Christianity in my life but not believing I am strong enough to chance the bad stuff. Walking into a new church is like walking on a field of land mines. You never know when somethings going to, figuratively speaking, blow up in the name of God and His Word.
The worst thing about this is that I have turned very bitter toward God for this. I read the book of Job and found that he mentioned some variation of the word "bitter" in each turn that he talked except for one. Job knew what it felt like to be bitter toward a God that seemed to have let him down. Christian Bible fundamentalists will scream "but it was the devil!" I say that the devil could not do anything without God's permission first, as the story goes; who then is really responsible for letting a deranged demon maniac torture his own child? While you're thinking about that one, think on this one: God does it to each of us every single day too. I confess that I am pissed at Him for this. As much as I wish I could love Him, there is this barrier that I can't get beyond, this lack of trust between us for that reason.
I suppose that I should not give up on God, but then, I don't have anywhere else to go, do I? Who is going to stand up for me to Him? Job asked the same thing, and even though my life circumstances now don't compare evenly with Job's, it doesn't make my pain any less tormenting for me.
I can't be the only one who's pissed off about that, but I'm probably one of the few who has the guts to admit it. If not, speak out. In a demented way, I would find comfort in knowing that I am not alone.
Comments
I hate to break the news to you, but God is imaginary. Let him go along with Santa, The Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. If you want help getting right with God, this ain't the place.
A well meaning Christain will undoubtedly say the most cliche'd bullshit line of this site:
"Don't be mad at God for the behavior of a church leader or it's members, you must just have a personal relationship with Jesus."
Yea ole Jebus will solve all yur troubles so long as you make him YOUR personal friend.
One thing that may help is to act upon the parts of your belief that feel genuine to you. What are a few things that satisfy, that enrich your life? Find those places, and then wander those paths for a while. You may or may not find a god you can trust, but you will become stronger.
And, in the meantime, here's a (((hug))).
It is not our fault that we can't believe in a god that let's every manner of bad things happen to humans.
How can a person believe, love, and trust in something that doesn't even give us a hint that s/he/it exist?
Personally I would have a little more respect for god if he would explain to me what this life of sorrow and suffering was for, other than to just trust in him.
Hell, as stupid as it sounds, as a christian and now a non-believer I still curse him when things go wrong, It helps ease life's pressures a bit.
Anyway, as much as I would hope for a hereafter, I will NEVER serve a god as cruel and evil as the god of the bible, even unto my last breath. Peace, Roger...A/A
Amy, if there is one in your vicinity, try a Unitarian/Universalist (UU) church. You might find the good community you are looking for without the negatives of Christianity. They welcome both God believers and non-believers.
Bible, but I do believe that there's something out there. Resonate made a good suggestion, you might want to seek out a universalist church for a sense of community. A website you might wish to check out if you're spiritually searching is www.sacred-texts.com. They have a ton of books online you can read on just about every religion or belief system you can think of. Good luck and remember you're not alone.
"I had a very real experience for Him because he courted me. He loves you. Ask Him"
Oh, so God courted you? Did he have sex with you also?
How many times have we heard the statement, "I have had a very real experience with God"?
I have to admit that you christians sure do have a very active imagination. However, I would caution you Zip to not go around telling too many people that you had an experience with your imaginary friend named God, or you might end up being committed in a mental institution for having Schizophrenia, which is a disease that seems to be very common among christians like yourself. However, there is medication for your condition.
"I hate to break the news to you, but God is imaginary."
Sorry to inform all you atheists, but you all are wrong.
I am convinced that he is not the "Christian God", however I am convinced that there is a "God" or higher power or higher intelligence out there of some sort. I do not believe that we got here by accident, nor do I believe that anything can create itself from nothing.
I will probably never be a christian ever again, however at the same time I also know that I will never be an atheist, because no atheist will ever be able to convince me that there is no God period. Just like I know that there is no christian that will ever be able to convince me that there is a Christian God or Personal God.
God's just so much more laid-back than most people imagine.
Unfortunately there are many people in churches today who just use the Church for power-trips, from the freedom-abusing pastor, right down to the old lady in a tweed skirt who tries to get everyone involved in making cakes.
The best advert for this gentle God can in my opinion be found by listening to the music [all free] of a chap named Don Francisco. Here is his website at
http://www.rockymountainministries.org
Read some of his editorials. Listen to his music. Let God minister to you through it. And feel free to stay away from churches :) Like I said, He's much more gentle than most people give Him credit for, and is much closer to you than you can possibly know.
Please tell us about the god you know! How, exactly, do you know her? Do you sit down to tea together? Do you play Canasta on Monday nights? Or is this some feeling you get when you meditate on your version of a god?
I'm dying to know. How exactly do you KNOW this thing you call god?
God’s QED to Job (chapters 38ff) amounts to, “I’M GOD. YOU’RE NOT. NOW SHUT UP AND TAKE IT.” Like a tantrum-throwing toddler playing grownup. Job gets a new family in the end—as if his dead children can be replaced. But is this a guarantee in real life? Job is a fable, and fables are useful only insofar as they relate to real life. And in real life, shit happens. The God hypothesis cannot account for this without making myriad excuses for the Almighty. Without the God hypothesis, there is no explaining to do.
I’m still struggling with the loss of church community, but i have no desire whatsoever to become a Christian again. For me, the possibility has been raised of taking part in the social functions of my former church—but then, i didn’t have the negative experiences that you did. Have you heard of the Stockholm syndrome?
Zip wrote: “I am so sorry for the lack of difference between Christians and non-Christians.”
Gee, you Christians certainly apologize an awful lot. You must have an awful lot to apologize for.
Or maybe it’s expanding on that barbaric idea of substitutionary sacrifice that’s so central to the Christian message. If Jesus can die for Zip’s sins, then surely Zip can apologize for the sins of Christians that he has never met. Is that it, Zip?
"Agnostic" wrote: Sorry to inform all you atheists, but you all are wrong.
I am convinced that he is not the "Christian God", however I am convinced that there is a "God" or higher power or higher intelligence out there of some sort.
That's a bold statement. You're certainly confident that there is a higher power. That being the case, I'll be eagerly waiting for you present your voluminous evidence to support this claim.
You may also want to change your handle to "Deist", since "Agnostic" contradicts the entire content of your post.
Do you lose a lot of friends when left the church?
Not to sound like a christian (I’m not) but does it make sense to be bitter toward a god for the actions of the church(s) that you attended?
Why don’t you have anywhere else to go? What about inside yourself? Your post seems to imply that you have already started on that worthwhile journey.
Finally, why are you here? I am not denigrating your decision to post here but this is a site for ex-christians. Do you think that we could provide you with some insight? Are looking for advice other than the “put your life in jesus” variety? Or are you looking to take the “final step” as it were?
To put in my two cents worth, loneliness comes from a lack of friends. If you lost most or all of your friends when you left your church and because of it, then they weren’t really your friends to begin with. I think that may be because they are looking to not be alone themselves and wish to find companionship in the crowd. If true, then they are pretty sad people, because that is not what friendship is. True friends not only stand by you, they stand with you. Twenty years ago, I got one of the best friends I have ever had because she decided that she needed a new circle of friends. I was out underneath my car fixing something and out she walked with two cokes in her hands. This woman, whom I had never met, sat down on the concrete, handed me one of the colas and started talking to me. A year later I was the best man at her wedding. Twenty years later we are closer than ever. (How’s that for an inspirational story?)
Please don’t let your anger and bitterness keep you from living your life to it’s fullest. You can and will get through this. Come back and talk with us soon! Good luck!!!!
Fuck off. You're an idiot.
Agnostic and Admiral_Kang,
You two should conjoin in mutual meditation and perhaps decide on what non-existent god you're talking about. I've heard that dropping acid and/or sensory deprevation helps in this.
Amy,
There is no absolute truth, so stop trying to look for it. It's natural to want something permanent, but all evidence shows us that the only thing permanent is change. Get used to it.
Stop thinking about eternity, because you've only got a few years before you kick off. On the contrary, you should start learning how to enjoy life.
After posting this, I'm going to have a scotch over ice, look at some Japanese lesbian porn on Youtube, bang my wife (I'll have to wake her up, she sleeps like a log), have another scotch over ice, play a little jazz/funk on the bass, brush my teeth, and go to bed.
What more could a man want?
You have to decide on what you want from life and how to get it. Don't think about eternity because it ain't there.
I will check out the link.
FROM FRITISTAT:
"That's a bold statement. You're certainly confident that there is a higher power. That being the case, I'll be eagerly waiting for you present your voluminous evidence to support this claim."
Unlike Christians who post on here, I will be the first to admit that I have no evidence to present. I know you will not find this valid either due to the fact that all of you have heard this line before, however I base my opinion on my own personal experiences. That is the honest truth.
FROM FRITISTAT:
"You may also want to change your handle to "Deist", since "Agnostic" contradicts the entire content of your post"
Perhaps you are right, however at the same time, maybe I need to rephrase what I said in my last post. I'm not exactly 100 percent sure that there is a God, however I am 90 percent for sure, and who knows? Maybe I am wrong. However, at the same time I don't see how it is possible for something to create itself from nothing. I don't see how it is possible for a perfectly round earth to be created from a big bang. Anytime something blows up the remains are usually jagged and are not perfectly round.
I will be the first to admit that I do not know a lot about science, and I do not have a college education. I am open to any links or other information. I also want to let all of you atheists know that unlike most christians who come here to post, I am not here to disrespect none of you. However, IMHO it takes more faith to be an atheist than what it takes to be a christian. I don't see how it is possible for something to create itself without a creator. Please educate myself on the matter. I am open to it, so feel free to do so. :)
FROM PEKINGJOHN:
"Agnostic and Admiral_Kang,
You two should conjoin in mutual meditation and perhaps decide on what non-existent god you're talking about. I've heard that dropping acid and/or sensory deprevation helps in this".
Pekingjohn,
I'm not so sure who this God is or what he is. I just believe that it's more likely that there is a creator of some sort out there, although I may be wrong.
Some of you may burst out laughing at my next statement, however I have sometimes wondered if perhaps human life, and this planet might have been created by some aliens or other higher advanced life forms out there who took on the name, "God".
I simply do not know, however I still do not agree with the atheist belief that "There is no God or Creator Period". Like I said, I am open to whatever links or other information any of you have to present.
I also must admit at the same time that I still do sometimes wonder if perhaps the christians might be right after all, and I might end up splitting hell wide open one of these days. I sure do hate to take that chance, but at the same time this so called loving God doesn't seem fair at all. It is wrong for people to suffer for some incident that took place in the Garden of Eden many centuries ago. None of us were responsible for that, so at the same time I find the christian belief to be wrong. Their version of "Who God Is" is not loving, nor do I find Jesus' death to be a "True Death", considering that he brought himself back to life and he was considered "God". If he was indeed "God", then I believe that Jesus was more than capable of enduring pain and suffering that most of us mortal human beings cannot. I have never been phased by the words, "Jesus died and suffered for your sins". I have always found that to be an overblown statement.
The actions and characteristics of the God who I feel does exist does not line up with what the bible has to say about him. The two do not match.
In closing, I want to make it clear that I am not here to disrespect atheists. Maybe I should have worded my earlier post different than what I did. I am here for a friendly debate, and to explain why I believe what I believe, and to get the atheist's perspective on the matter I guess you could say.
I am searching, and seeking knowledge on the subject.
You are not the only person that has ever been mad at God. At one point, I declared open war on God. I had a very deliberate plan to get into Hell, amass the Armies of Darkness, and march upon the Gates of Heaven. I fully intended to face off against God and crush it.
Killing God is hard. Not because there is a God that posseses any real qualities, such as being hard to kill, but because from the time we are born we are told how things work. We are told the way of things, and they become our world. You only believe in God because you have been given no other choice. You think you understand the nature of this God; yet it is at the moment that we think we fully understand something that we least understand it.
There is a saying, a Buddhist teaching which helped me in my escape from Christianity: if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him. This does not mean anything other than to kill your concepts of something when you believe you have found it. Our understanding of the way of the world is ever-shifting, ever-changing, like sand in a wind. And this is life; life is fluid, dynamic, ever-dancing. It's why concepts of God have changed, and are still changing. The question you have to ask yourself is: is what I have been told of God really God, or is it what I am expected to believe? If there really is a God, Amy, why do you need the Bible to understand it? Why do you need a bridge? If there was really a God, Amy, I would think that this God would have the power to contact us more directly, or at the very least to live up to its promises. Yet this God does not answer prayer, nor does it live up to its qualities described in the Bible. If it did, there would be a lot of dead atheists. Strangely enough, we are a growing group.
At the very least, Amy, you do not need God or religion to be a spiritual person. Life is never more beautiful than the day it becomes OUR responsibility. And this is a hard transition; give it time. The most important thin you can ask yourself is: is there REALLY a God? You are expected to believe this, but where is the proof? Where is the evidence? People can offer a lot of roundabout arguments, but in the end these are all just appeals to your emotion and the fact that you don't know everything. It's no wonder you're mad at God; when I saw the abuses of Christianity and God's apparent involvement with it, I was FURIOUS. Pissed off at God? I HATED God with every fiber of my being. But this is such bad blood, and this is what Christians want; they want you to tow their party line, Amy. They either want you to love God or hate God unconditionally. That way, the world works the way they want it to. But it doesn't have to be this way, Amy. I realized, at first, that Christians might be WRONG about God. This was only the first step on a long path realizing that there is no God, but it's a question you should ask yourself: how do Christians know? They don't. If they did, they'd have better answers than emotional appeals.
Think about it, Amy; have you ever been in an argument where you made a point, and the other side could only respond emotionally instead of logically? That's what happening here. They can't win, so at the very least they'll be happu knowing they've confused and upset you. But you're not the one at fault. You're an innocent person searching for meaning, AND THEY ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU. And you . . . don't . . . NEED THEM. Let God speak for itself, Amy. hear that thunderous, boomng, crushing silence? God is in your head, Amy, because others expect it to be. They want you to be mad, Amy. They want you to play this big, overdramatic, blown-out-of-proportion emotional game. But you don't have to. it doesn't have to be that way. Ask logical questions; expect logical answers. If people make fantastic claims, expect fantastic evidence. I was there, and I know your pain. Demand justice; demand answers from God. But don't be surprised when God does NOTHING.
The scariest part for you might be the possibility of not knowing. Guess what? NOBODY knows. And that's okay. What is wrong with admitting that e don't have all the answers? We can be good people WITHOUT knowing all the answers. You're not going to start running around killing people because there is no God, right? Right. Why? Because you're a better person without God.
I've got some questions for you that I'd like you to answer for me w/ complete truth and open heart.
When you went to church, were you doing it out of religion and once a week, or were you building a relationship with Christ that affected your daily life OUTSIDE of what your pastor says. (It sounded like the pastor was more god, than Christ in your story by the effect the pastor had on your day to day life...correct me if I'm wrong)
Second... Who is God? Now, like I said I care enough about you to have thought diligently about posting this. Others on here give the same 'ol free thinker answer of "THERE IS NO GOD GET OVER IT" However I truly think that you know in your heart that there is, but I think that you might be underestimating his power...i.e.
Who is going to stand up for me to Him?
Think about those questions a bit. I want you to know that it is OK to be confused and it is ok to be angry. There are numerous accounts in the Bible where people get flustered and confused because God seems to be confusing. I can tell you though from personal experience that if you have faith w/ no doubt that God will provide. For me, it was a matter of not having money for housing or food, and it got to the point where I realized that when I prayed in faith, I was really leaning on other things besides God, but when those crutches were kicked out from under me and I began to fall, God lifted me right up, and provided me w/ money, food, a place to live, and most of all joy. It was about a 6-9 month process, unfortunately one of the drags of Faith is that it doesn't go along w/ the worldly mindset of "Instant gratification" but i can gurantee you that God has somethin' special in the mix for you Amy and that He is just waiting for you to make the next move ;-)
Think about all of these things tonite and pray about it, and let me know what you think tomorrow. Have a good day Amy!
I don't have much to offer you except to say that I spent many years of my life searching for a god and it never happened. I never found him and I guess you might say I was looking in the wrong places.
I now live my life without any religion at all and I get by quite nicely. I don't expect to ever find a god because I don't think one exists. Now, I can't explain how I "know" this but then again, I don't have to explain anything anyway. Suffice it to say I know that as for me, there are no gods.
I would suggest you read a book about mythology to see where the Adam and Eve story originated and maybe then you will lose your fear of hell.
I'm not very well educated but have always had a healthy dose of common sense and logic. It's way better than faith, you know! I agree with Mark Twain that "faith is believing what you know ain't so."
Let me also say that being an atheist is not that bad. It simply means that one has no illusions about a god. We both live in the same world; I just don't believe in magic.
You mentioned that you didn't want to be wrong about your beliefs but did you ever stop to think what your beliefs would be if you had been born in a different part of the world? Muslims don't fear the christian god and vice versa! Think about that.
If you are new to the possibility that no gods exist and you truly want to learn more, there is a wealth of info at your fingertips. Put in NO GOD in your search engine and you will get a host of sites to visit. Good luck.
To Amy: Thanks for your post and keep your mind open to all the realities around you and don't give delusions the time of day. You are at the beginning of an exciting journey. Good for you. Jim Earl
"were you building a relationship with Christ that affected your daily life OUTSIDE of what your pastor says."
Tyler,
I realize your post is directed at Amy, however I have been down this road with you christians also, and looking back at my experience, No, I had no desire for a relationship with Christ, and to tell you the truth, I still do not have any desire to have a relationship with an invisible man who I cannot see, touch, or feel. I desire to have a relationship with real, living, and breathing people. Having a relationship with Jesus is no more real to me than having a relationship with a rock or a tree. At least I can see those objects, and having faith was never acceptable for me. Having a relationship with a dead man who has not shown his face in 2,000 years is not realistic. You cannot have a relationship with someone who is dead, and is unseen. Spiritual relationships are not practical nor are they realistic.
FROM TYLER:
"For me, it was a matter of not having money for housing or food, and it got to the point where I realized that when I prayed in faith, I was really leaning on other things besides God, but when those crutches were kicked out from under me and I began to fall, God lifted me right up, and provided me w/ money, food, a place to live, and most of all joy. It was about a 6-9 month process, unfortunately one of the drags of Faith is that it doesn't go along w/ the worldly mindset of "Instant gratification" but i can gurantee you that God has somethin' special in the mix for you Amy and that He is just waiting for you to make the next move"
You know Tyler, I have heard that same old stuff before, well it never happened to me. God never provided anything.
I am the one who provided my living, because I am the one who went out and worked my butt off to get anywhere in life. God did nothing. It was by my own human effort.
As far as "God" providing you with money, food, a place to live, and most of all joy. No, a human being provided you with those things. It's called an employer or welfare which ever one you were getting these things from.
I get so sick and tired of the way humans are disrespected and how the christian message robs people of their own abilities.
The facts are Tyler, that whoever this God is, he gave you your own abilities and talents to make things happen on your own. I use to think God was going to do this big stuff for me that you are talking about, and it never happened.
It was when I took control of my life again, and when I got off my butt and started believing in myself is when I once again started making progress.
If I were to give God credit for anything, it would be my own abilities, however I did all of the work.
That is practical and how life works.
It was about a 6-9 month process, unfortunately one of the drags of Faith is that it doesn't go along w/ the worldly mindset of "Instant gratification" but i can gurantee you that God has somethin' special in the mix for you Amy and that He is just waiting for you to make the next move ;-)
Jim Earl: That's a mighty fine promise you made to Amy there Tyler.
Tell me this, Tyler, what was "god" doing when Hitler was stuffing the victims in the fire? What was "god" doing when the zealots flew the planes into the twin towers? What was "god" doing while the gunman at Virginia Tech shot down 32 victims? What was "god" doing when he sent tornadoes recently that took 50 or more lives? Was he looking to kill more or was this his exact plan? Or should we expect just these kind of things in a world without a god? Just wondering. Jim Earl
"I would suggest you read a book about mythology to see where the Adam and Eve story originated and maybe then you will lose your fear of hell."
Hi Jim Earl,
Thanks, I will do that. I will admit that the fear of hell is what brought me into christianity in the first place. I never really desired a relationship with a mythical man in the first place. Plus I have no interest nor desire to ever return to the christian faith, because of two things:
1) It would sabotage my successes since leaving the christian faith.
2) I would have to give up my lifestyle which has brought me happiness and joy.
I refuse to go backwards. Returning to the christian faith again would do so. God failed to make himself personally known to me, and he failed to provide.
I am now to a point where I only believe in "A creator". I do not believe in this personal God who you can have a relationship with who provides all of these things such as finances, careers, mates, and goals in life. I believe that success is obtained by human effort, not God.
I believe that God "The Creator" does not get personally involved in the affairs of other people.
FROM JIM EARL:
You mentioned that you didn't want to be wrong about your beliefs but did you ever stop to think what your beliefs would be if you had been born in a different part of the world? Muslims don't fear the christian god and vice versa! Think about that.
Yes, I have and that is one of the things that has brought me to where I am at today.
I believed in Jesus and the Christian Message because I was taught to believe that. It was based on tradition, not fact.
The facts are that every single religious/spiritual belief has it's own "Bible". The Christian Bible is no more valid than what the Koran is.
Every single Christian believes that their way is the only way only because they have been taught to believe what they believe.
"That's a mighty fine promise you made to Amy there Tyler"
The same exact promise that I have heard over and over again for years, which was never fruitful nor did it provide any comfort or productivity in my life.
I guarantee that most of what Tyler achieved was more less done by his own human effort. Not God. I realize that atheists will still disagree with me on my next opinion, however if God did anything that helped Tyler, he gave him his own abilities to make things happen. Tyler's achievement and ability to pick himself back up was done more less by his own human effort. Unfortunate, like most christians, Tyler has been taught to give all credit to God, and has been taught to believe that he can do nothing without Christ, which in reality is not true.
I would encourage Amy to take charge of her own life and learn to trust in her own abilities. Learn to believe in yourself and trust in your own efforts to make things happen.
If it were real, it could not possibly be hurt by you "giving up" on it. If it were omnipotent, how could it possibly care. After all, whatever you do would be of its own doing.
It's ok to not believe in gods. Lots of people live wonderful lives without gods. My husband and I are very happy, and live fulfilled lives--no matter how many people try to lie viciously and say the opposite--that you can't be happy. That's a terrible lie--don't fall for it.
1) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
2) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
3) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
4) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
5) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
6) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
7) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
We all need to remember that the Bible was written in a far different time and it is nearly impossible to apply the rules of that time to the reality of today. Just try to accept all of the creator's children, as they are, not as you think they need to be.
For those who don't know I am a recovering alcoholic. I have 17 years of unblemished sobriety. I did it all on my own with the help of real humans. Despite what many think God did not help.
Last year an old friend emailed me I hadn't heard from in many years. She knew I was a recovering drunk and told me that Jesus delivered her from alcoholism a couple years ago. She had become born again. Then she later went on to say she had a little slip and got wasted a few months back.
Hmmmmm Jesus helped this girl get sober, yet she slips. I did it all with human help and my record remains unblemished. What is up with that.
Hey Pekingjohn,
I love what you said,
"After posting this, I'm going to have a scotch over ice, look at some Japanese lesbian porn on Youtube, bang my wife (I'll have to wake her up, she sleeps like a log), have another scotch over ice, play a little jazz/funk on the bass, brush my teeth, and go to bed.
What more could a man want?"
At least everything but the scotch. A man must watch as much porn as he can especially of the lesbian variety, and a husband must bang his wife as often as possible in this lifetime.
"A man must watch as much porn as he can especially of the lesbian variety, and a husband must bang his wife as often as possible in this lifetime."
Talking about a couple of typical "Male Chauvenist Pigs".
Is that all you men care about, is drinking, watching porn, and having sex? I cannot believe that there are women in this world who tolerate this kind of crap from (Dick for brains) men such as yourselves. You talk about your wives as if they are nothing more than sex slaves to you. Men are truly stupid, and it seems that men such as yourselves don't seem to care about anything else but drinking and screwing.
If I were married to either one of you, you would both be packing your bags and hitting the roads.
I am reminded of why I am a lesbian, and why I hate men.
Pigs!!!!
Cheers :)
No, the real reason why I am a lesbian is because I am not attracted to men period. They are disgusting creatures, and the feel of their skin makes mine crawl. Men are nasty.
It is when I read such comments from insecured males who don't know how to do anything else but think with their dicks that I am reminded of why I am glad that I do not like men.
You said, "It is when I read such comments from insecured males who don't know how to do anything else but think with their dicks that I am reminded of why I am glad that I do not like men."
So, it’s fair to say, you feel like a more justified and secure lesbian, because of other people; e.g., hetero couples and their relationships.
Interesting, you seem to believe you "know", exactly what "all" women need; well, at least from a lesbians point of view.
Perhaps, you don't know what a lot of women enjoy; have you considered that there are women on this planet who don't mind; going to a local male strip club, having some drinks, hitting the pub and picking up a date for the night.
It must horrify you, that there are men being used as sex objects, by lusting women in the world; or is your concern for the misguided hetero women of the world, who you believe have lowered their standards and lost sight of what it means to be a "real woman".
Cheers :)
"You talk about your wives as if they are nothing more than sex slaves to you"
No honey actually I am a slave to my wife for sex. She gets whatever the fuck she wants from me and she exploits it well sometimes, but it's all worth it in the end if I get my medicine : )
I accept your criticism in toto. But there are a few things I want to add.
1) I don't spend all my time thinking about drinking and sex - only about fifty to seventy five percent. I do have a job.
2) I drink regularly, but I don't overdo it. My dad taught me responsible drinking when I was young.
3) My wife likes my banging her. If I go three days without banging her, she wakes me up in the middle of the night to do it. And I give her a minimum of three orgasms each time (I know, she could be faking it, but she says it's real.) while I only get one or none. Who's the sex slave here?
4) I save all my banging for my wife, and she likes it like that.
5) What does she do when she catches me watching Japanese lesbo porn? She makes me find some male homo porn, and then I have to bang her.
6) In addition to banging her on a regular basis, I have also hired a maid for her so that she doesn't have to cook, clean, or take care of the baby. I also give her a monthly stipend of $500 personal spending money. She doesn't work. She spends all day visiting friends and relatives and going shopping, the beauty salon, or just staying at home.
I think I treat my wife pretty damn good.
By the way, do you watch lesbo porn? Perhaps you can refer me to some good sites.
Sincerley,
Pekingpig
This got derailed REAL fast.
As a man, I feel compelled to add my own $0.02.
ALL healthy human beings are drawn to sex and sexuality. One of the ways this manifests itself is through looking at pornography. Pornography is a loose term; some people are willing to define it as something as mundane as images of people in revealing clothing, to something as extreme as gokkun, gagging or A2M; and of course the extremity of certain porn is defined only by the viewer. A viewer, male or female, might find latex porn disturbing while someone else finds it attractive.
ALL healthy people are drawn to sexual imagery; studies have shown that women enjoy porn just as much as men. Sometimes MORE so. Some women enjoy gay male porn. I have an ex who enjoyed watching gay male porn, for those of you who doubt this. So the enjoyment of porn is not restricted to men, nor is it restricted to women, nor is the enjoyment of certain kinds of porn restricted to certain kinds of people. What I like is not on trial here.
On drinking: I come from a long line of male alcoholics. Virtually every one of my dad's brother's is an alcoholic. I say virtually because not all of them are still alive, but when they were ALL of them drank. I do not drink; I am, in fact, militantly against drinking. AT ALL. I've recieved a lot of heat for this view. But it is mine, and I stand by it. So to say that all men care about drinking, is a fallacious staement. I despite drinking.
On having sex: ALL healthy people think about having sex. If this was all people cared about, then it would show in their behavior. So obviously, men do NOT only think of having sex.
On being a lesbian: wrong. You are a lesbian because you are biologically geared towards it. It's in your genes. You are NOT a lesbian because you hate men. Hating men may be more a deeply-rooted problem, but it has nothing to do with you being a lesbian.
On that note, I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic of the discussion. Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?
P.S.
And I don't mind being called "Dick for Brains." I'm the first one to admit that my dick provides a great deal of motivation for many of the things I do. Life would be pretty boring without my dick.
Sincerely,
Pekingpig
Brian?s mother: "Stop thinking about sex!"
Brian: "I wasn't!"
Brian?s mother: "You're always on about it. "Will the girls like this? Will the girls like that? Is it too big? Is it too small?"
To the man hatein' lesbian heterophobe,
I don't like men either but that may be because I am one and would prefer it if I had all the women to myself. I drink sometimes but I fail to see why I should blame my penis for it, especially since my wife likes to drink sometimes too.
Oh, and I am the housebitch in my relationship and my wife is the breadwinner. I cook, I clean, and take care of the kids. And my wife seems to want me to bang her! We even have a porno we watch together sometimes.
Who's the pig here? I think neither me nor my wife are piggish enough.
But give us time and we'll see what we can do.
Another apology? Listen, you Christians need to get your act together so you won’t have to be apologizing so freakin’ much.
We can’t help it; it’s biological. Evolution (or the Intelligent Designer?) has provided us with a brain and a dick, but with not enough blood to feed them both at the same time.
I agree with Proud Lesbian. Men are insensitive jerks who don't know how to do nothing else but brag about their drinking and getting laid. Men are dumber than a box of rocks.
Oh one more thing. My wife will not admit to liking porn, but she was careless one fine day and left a porno tape in the machine. Oh that was beautiful because it was girl/girl action. I kept it under my hat for a very long time that I knew what she was up to.
I agree with Fritistat. You are a deist, like Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson, and (recently) Antony Flew.
Agnosticism is not a position on the existence of God or the nature of God. It is the position that one does not or cannot know whether or not God exists. You sound like you’re convinced that there is a god to the extent that you’re not agnostic, but perhaps i’ve misread the tone of your statement.
In a way, i agree with your statement, though. People become atheists on their own. I might be able to tell you why God’s existence seems unlikely or illogical to me, but only you can make yourself receptive to my arguments.
(I also am very slightly agnostic. Although i think that the probability of there being a god is incalculably small, as a fallible being, i don’t claim to know anything for sure.)
I am sorry that you have had to have the kind of experiences that make you hate men. But you're wrong.
The fact that women are becoming corporate executives does not indicate that they are a superior gender. Corporate executives have existed for quite some time. You seem to say that women are just now becoming corporate executives. So women are just now catching up with men on the superiority scale? Are they being allowed to become corporate executives? Are they starting their own companies, or are they just now trying to become corporate executives? Whatever the case, this is no indication of female superiority.
I could make a very long (nigh unending) list of how women are weaker than men. I could provide you with firsthand experiences, biological proof, and emotional theory that men are better than women. We could make this very logn and drawn out, but I'm not going to do such a thing. As a man, I'm really not interested in debating whether or not I'm better than a woman. I have my strengths, I have my weaknesses. So does every woman I've ever met. I'm just concerned with being ME.
It sounds to me like you are a misandrist, Laura. Misandry is the opposite of misogyny; it is the hatred of men. These kind of hatreds come from deep-seated emotional or psychological trauma, sometimes indirectly. You might have been reared in an environment where men were looked down upon. I really don't know what your situation is; only that you are wrong.
I haven't bragged about drinking, (in fact, I hate drinking so much that if I could, I would reenact Prohibition . . . only this time with very brutal public executions for breaking that law)nor have I bragged about getting laid. So does that mean that I'm NOT a real man?
I don't let others set the standard for my masculinity. Every night at work I listen to women bad-mouth men, shitting on our supposed inherited genetic flaws. This shit comes to the surface real fast when they're around me; I'm one of the fastest workers in the plant, and I don't take anyone's shit. These women LOVE to try and tell me how to do my job, and when I do it better, prove them wrong, or ignore their "advice," they chalk it up to me being a dumb ape. Ladies . . . you can call me a dumb ape when the floor managers think you're a better worker than me. And most of the floor managers are women.
It's hard not to blame them. Most of the workers are female, too, but they've got no excuse for shitting on me when I come,along and do my job better than they do theirs. Ladies maybe . . . maybe if you'd just focus on doing what you do better, and not on how much better you are INHERENTLY because you don't have a dick, you'd be getting corporate executive jobs a long time ago.
"I might be able to tell you why God’s existence seems unlikely or illogical to me, but only you can make yourself receptive to my arguments."
Hi Cousin Ricky,
I am willing to do so.
FROM COUSIN RICKY:
"(I also am very slightly agnostic. Although i think that the probability of there being a god is incalculably small, as a fallible being, i don’t claim to know anything for sure.)"
That's interesting. I guess I would be considered a Deist now when I think more about it, and since I have done some more research on the matter, however I do have my doubts about the existence of a creator I must admit. Maybe I am slightly agnostic still.
Tell me this, Tyler, what was "god" doing when Hitler was stuffing the victims in the fire? What was "god" doing when the zealots flew the planes into the twin towers? What was "god" doing while the gunman at Virginia Tech shot down 32 victims? What was "god" doing when he sent tornadoes recently that took 50 or more lives? Was he looking to kill more or was this his exact plan? Or should we expect just these kind of things in a world without a god? Just wondering.
God didn't kill anybody. We are in a world that is separated from God (compliments to Adam and Eve way back when) and as a result Satan has free-reign over the world. In Jesus dying for us, we are able to be close with God again...but only if we call on Him and trust in Him. Therefore, with evil intentions RULING the world, you should only expect bad things to happen.
Christianity isn't a frolic through a park u know? If it's being pushed to the max BECAUSE there are more people who want nothing to do w/ it than there are true-believing/acting Christians.
I don't wanna fight or argue w/ u man 'cause that's not gonna get us anywhere. I did want to answer your question though :-) Have a great day man!
I have some questions for Tyler ...
1) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
-hmmm 10 dollars :-P
2) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
-I 'spose you'll have to risk getting slapped then 'eh?
3) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
-Let's flip it around, why can't the Canadians or Mexicans own us for slaves?
4) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
- Hmm what's your definition of the Sabbath?
5) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
- Take it to the King and see what he says?
6) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
- Of course not! Football is evil! hahaha!
7) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
- Nah, I'd say roll up a pair of denim trousers and have a hoedown in the mixed seed field!
We all need to remember that the Bible was written in a far different time and it is nearly impossible to apply the rules of that time to the reality of today.
I'll stop it there! Here's what I'm getting at 'cause I entirely agree w/ u on that last stanza (I was just being obnoxious w/ your questions...I don't think i have to clarify that, but I also don't want you killing random people either :-P )
In this day and age we have Christ to thank for covering the OLD law w/ His blood. Does this mean the Bible is erroneous?! Of course not...this is how it USED to be and it is simply Historical, but if u stop at Leviticus and try to apply it like here and all of these situations that you've given me to answer to, then you just need to skip up to the New Covenant to understand what the LOVE of God is rather than the utter WRATH of God. I recommend John :-)
Cheers!
-Tyler
"In this day and age we have Christ to thank for covering the OLD law w/ His blood. Does this mean the Bible is erroneous?! Of course not...this is how it USED to be and it is simply Historical, but if u stop at Leviticus and try to apply it like here and all of these situations that you've given me to answer to, then you just need to skip up to the New Covenant to understand what the LOVE of God is rather than the utter WRATH of God. I recommend John"
Then should we just simply throw away the old testament then? After all it no longer matters. Besides Jesus came and changed everything, however at the same time God claims:
MAL 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
You say he's about love, yet he's all about wrath in the old testament, but he claims that he does not change.
So why should I trust a "Sociopath" like that? God seems to have a lot of mood swings.
Before you answer those questions, you cannot use the bible as your defense, since it is only "Hear-Say", not real evidence.
On a more personal note, I will say that I do appreciate your sense of humor. ;)
"God didn't kill anybody."
But he allowed it to happen, and didn't do anything to prevent it either, although he supposedly has the power to intervene.
Tyler Said:
"We are in a world that is separated from God (compliments to Adam and Eve way back when) and as a result Satan has free-reign over the world."
Well that is God's fault considering that he is responsible for the creation of his evil little pet named Satan, so therefore mankind should not have to suffer for God's screw ups along with the screw ups of two other people who none of us ever knew. In that case you and I should be responsible for the crimes of Hitler, and Charles Manson. That is exactly the kind of reasoning the bible and christianity teaches. It is absurd, and insulting to anyone who has any common sense whatsoever.
Tyler, you christians are going to have to come up with a better excuse than that. We've heard that same old worn out cover story over and over again. You are like a lawyer who is trying to win a court case who cannot come up with new evidence.
Tyler Said:
"there are true-believing/acting Christians."
Ok, who are the real and true christians?
Tyler Said:
"I don't wanna fight or argue w/ u man 'cause that's not gonna get us anywhere. I did want to answer your question though :-) Have a great day man!"
I realize you are responding to Jim Arvo's post, however I also felt the need to throw my 2 cents worth in.
In a nutshell you cannot defend you faith successfully when it is challenged, so you have decided to bail out, which is ok. :-) I understand. No christian ever can defend their faith successfully whenever it is challenged by those of us who were once part of the faith and who have studied the bible heavily over the years.
I honestly do not want to fight and argue with you either Tyler, I'm sure you are a good man. :)
However, understand that people like myself will never believe in any God until he reveals himself in a more personal way and starts providing some answers instead of some old ancient text known as the bible and other hear say messages from christians like yourself.
You have a good day too. :-)
That was "Jim Earl" who Tyler was replying to, not "Jim Arvo". I sometimes get the two of them mixed up. :-)
I stand corrected on that.
OK. So the god of the Old Testament was brutal, but the god of the New Testament is love. Just quickly turn to Acts 5 - New Testament - "god of love" zone. There's Ananias, gave money to the church, but then God killed him because he'd lied about how much he'd given. Sounds pretty brutal to me. Then Sapphira comes in, sees her husband dead on the floor, repeats Ananias' error and, wallop, she's dead on the floor too. The early church is struck with terror because this god of love is still killing people.
Let's look at what underpins the gospel message. "Mankind" has sinned, and god has decreed that the penalty is death. What was this sin? - because it's extremely unlikely that Adam and Eve ever existed - it seems that even the early Hebrews took this story as allegorical rather than literal. It appears that this sin is basically self-awareness and the ability to make our own decisions. We might, therefore, make some decisions that god doesn't like. This is an absolute no-no - it's sin. Because "all of have sinned", all must die. This is in Romans - also the New Testament.
However, the escape route is that, if you believe that Jesus died in your place and accept him as your Lord and Master then, hey presto, you've escaped the penalty. But what happens if you've never heard of Jesus? What happens if you're incapable of understanding the message? Sorry, guys, it's the firey pit once again. This "god of love" still seems awfully keen on killing people.
Are you suggesting that we non-believers have never called on or trusted in the mindgod? I beg to differ. As a young man, I served the Church of the Nazarene in many capacities. I did my best for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. However, after many years of searching for a closer touch from the Master, I had to admit that it was a one-way street I was traveling.
I was left with having to make a decision using logic and reason. However, like many here, I am still open for a touch from this Master you still worship. The only problem is, this Master resides only in our imagination. Imagine that! And let me warn you that hearing all these ideas will haunt you for years to come, possibly until you lose your faith. Once faith is gone, then all that's left is logic and reason. Faith is just an empty vessel that fills a need in the lives of the deluded.
I don't expect this to have any effect of your life now, but think about what you are learning here and maybe in the future you will take my place and be answering other deluded people that visit here.
And to black swede: Thanks for even mentioning me in the same line with Jim Arvo. He's one of my heroes on this site.
Cheers, Jim Earl
They act like we have never heard the gospel message or we have never read the bible. The fact is that is far from the truth.
So therefore, christians like Tyler try to witness and explain the bible to us like they are witnessing to people who have never been christians before, or have never heard the gospel message before.
I remember a former christian friend of mine told me that he didn't think I had ever heard the correct version of what he called, "The True Gospel Message of Jesus Christ".
I was once in a men's bible study with this guy back when I was a die hard christian who was active within my church. This same guy who use to be the leader of our weekly men's bible study tried to sit down with me and take me through the gospel message and the book of Romans again. I told him he was not telling me about anything I had not heard before. He still didn't think I was understanding the message, however he finally gave completely up after he found that I was no longer teachable. Instead I ended up trying to debate him, and I started questioning what he was sharing with me.
I will tell Tyler and any other christian who comes onto this site that I will no longer listen to or accept what any christian has to say nor will I accept what the bible has to say.
Until I get a personal and "Real" Touch or until I hear God speak with his own voice, I will no longer listen to what other christians have to say.
Tyler and other christians need to realize that they need to let their God speak for himself (That is if he even exists), and so far God doesn't seem to be willing to do that.
I find it silly and quiet pitiful how so many christians feel so obligated to take up for their God and try to explain his actions when their God can't even seem to come forward to make himself more real and known to the people of this time period. We are not a bunch of goat and sheep herders like the people of the bible were, and considering that science and reasoning of today is shredding the gospel message to pieces, you would think that God would want to intervene and reveal himself to the people of this planet in today's times instead of expecting mankind to be gullible enough to accept a 2,000 year old bible that was written back during a totally different time period.
If God is so powerful, why does he need weak humans to keep on defending him and trying to explain his actions? It's not working in case their God has not figured it out, and as long as he fails to reveal himself in a more personal way then christianity will eventually die out completely.
BTW......You are welcome Jim Earl.
"Admiral,
Please tell us about the god you know! How, exactly, do you know her? Do you sit down to tea together? Do you play Canasta on Monday nights? Or is this some feeling you get when you meditate on your version of a god?
I'm dying to know. How exactly do you KNOW this thing you call god?"
To put things in context - I saw Amy's post, saw a hurting person, decided not to cross to the other side of the road. Job done.
However, in response to your queries, let me just say that I'm not capable of answering your questions at present, largely because I am in the same boat as most of the other visitors to this site. Damaged, battered people abused by the folk who were supposed to help, in the name of their loving God.
One day then, perhaps, I will explain myself, but not just now.
And I must say I love the humour of the people on this thread-Especially because lots of church-types would be shocked :))
PS No apologies. Heh.
I assume that since you are Klingon that you would believe in "Sto-vo-Kor".
I hope you do, because if you don't it is not honorable.
Indeed, Sto-vo-Kor is uppermost in my mind as I write anything on this forum. As indeed are the deeds of Kahless the Unforgettable.
Until we meet again, Q'aplaH!
You Klingons are a bunch of turtle-brained wusses. I eat Klingons for breakfast! Just after I assimilate them.
Trancelation, Xrayman, Pekingjohn, and Other Male Pigs,
As one of your fellow pigs, I have very much enjoyed reading your amusing posts. I only wish the men-hater(s) would come back with some more passionate but nonsensical rebuttals. Just so I could read some more jokes from you guys. But alas, it seems you have run the rug munchers away. The fun would appear to be over.
Amy,
Why did you send in your message? You realize this site is called EX-Christian, don't you?
-Clint
"You Klingons are a bunch of turtle-brained wusses. I eat Klingons for breakfast! Just after I assimilate them."
You have met your match Borg Guy. We may be on two totally different TV shows, however once we invade Borg Space we will eat and digest your technology.
We are the collective's worst nightmare.
Love,
God
"Why did you send in your message? You realize this site is called EX-Christian, don't you?"
Maybe she was searching for answers. Apparently WM didn't have a problem with her message or he wouldn't had posted it in the first place.
Why do you seem bothered by what she sent in? Do you think this site should be for atheists or people who have already left the faith only? Maybe Amy is looking for answers outside of her faith.
"The difference between God and people, is that God is forgiving and holy & people are conditioned"
Nor is God Anonymous.
God does love people with conditions. If you don't accept him he allows you to be torched.
Plus the christian version of God teaches homophobia.
So stop going around spreading lies about God being so great when he is not.
I must tell you that I have been hurt by christians in the past and it hurts more cause you tend to expect more from christians but truth be told they are only human and humans are by no means perfect we all make mistakes and do and say the wrong things, but Amy one thing you must know and I do believe you already know deep down is that God loves us all unconditionally even people that question His excistance and deny Him. God loves the person but hates the sin, we all sin but God will forgive us if we ask. He does excist 100% and if you ask Him for help He will help have faith. Faith is not easy come by it has to be worked at, like a small child learning to trust someone to not let them fall and keep them safe. No one understands God no one will ever understand Him, to say you understand Him is saying you are the same as Him. Gods ways are not our ways. People blame God for bad things that happen but I never hear anyone blame the devil he is the one that is the prince of this dark world he is the one that has his hands on it but only for a short time, until Jesus comes back. Please all who read this examine your unbelief again, God does excist and just because you say He doesn't doesn't make it so. Often people turn away from God because of the hurt in their life, you know this is the time God wants you to turn to Him. He is real I can't prove it and wouldn't want to try I know the things He has done for me I have doubted Him I have questioned Him but there is nothing wrong with this because it will bring us closer to Him.
"I must tell you that I have been hurt by christians in the past and it hurts more cause you tend to expect more from christians but truth be told they are only human and humans are by no means perfect we all make mistakes and do and say the wrong things"
Here is another example of a christian making an excuse for why christians act the way they do.
Sorry to inform you, but the bible even teaches that christians are supposed to be the salt and light of the Earth. None of us are going to by your excuse for why christians act the way they act sometime. Seems to me that once the Holy Spirit enters a christian's body that they would no longer act a certain way and they would no longer commit certain sins. You are all without an excuse christian.
Anonymous Said:
"one thing you must know and I do believe you already know deep down is that God loves us all unconditionally even people that question His excistance and deny Him."
Your belief does not matter, so stop pretending like you know all of us on a personal level and stop acting like you know what we are thinking.
If God loved us unconditionally then he would not threaten people with hell. Unconditional love means there are no conditions attached such as "Accept me or you will burn in hell". There is no such thing as unconditional love according to the Gospel message of the con man known as Jesus.
Anonymous Said:
"He does excist 100%"
Once again prove that he exists. You can't can you?
Anonymous Said:
"if you ask Him for help He will help have faith"
No he won't. I asked him for many years to help me and he didn't do a damn thing, so stop spreading lies. Nobody on this site has any interest in what you have to say christian.
Anonymous Said:
"Faith is not easy come by it has to be worked at"
Why should we have to work at it? Didn't Jesus do all the work? None of us should have to do anything. More excuses for why God ignores people and does not answer them. I am no longer buying into these excuses.
Anonymous Said:
"People blame God for bad things that happen but I never hear anyone blame the devil he is the one that is the prince of this dark world he is the one that has his hands on it but only for a short time, until Jesus comes back."
Huh, you think 2,000 plus years is a short time?
As far as Satan is concerned, it is God who is responsible for the creation of Satan, so therefore it is once again God's fault that Satan even exists in the first place, plus I've noticed that once again another christian has given more credit to Satan than what they give to God. Satan is busy at work while God is busy sitting on his ass taking a snooze. Your God sucks Anonymous.
Anonymous Said:
"Please all who read this examine your unbelief again"
Ok, I did, and once again God hasn't revealed himself to me, so therefore he sucks and he is not real.
Anonymous Said:
"God does excist and just because you say He doesn't doesn't make it so."
Just because "YOU" say that he exists doesn't make it so either. Your above comment is arrogant. If he existed then he would've made his will clear to me a long time ago, and the fact that he did not reveals that he is not the God who all you christians make him out to be.
Anonymous Said:
"Often people turn away from God because of the hurt in their life, you know this is the time God wants you to turn to Him."
Oh you know so much about people. You think you have everyone on this site figured out. You don't know shit about why some of us turned away from the faith. I could give a shit less about what God wants from me. Screw your power hungry imaginary friend named God. I could give a shit less about what he wants. I care about what I want and how to get ahead in life, so shut your pie hold Anonymous Christian.
Anonymous Christian Said:
"I have questioned Him but there is nothing wrong with this because it will bring us closer to Him."
You actually believe that? Well I've got some news for you.
I questioned God. I questioned many times, and he never told me anything. Instead of it bringing me closer to him, it caused me to turn my back on him because God failed to reveal himself, so as far as I'm concerned God can suck a dick.
I find it quiet pitiful that christians like you feel the need to continue to defend your lazy and pathetic God who continues to sit on his lazy ass up in heaven and do nothing. You poor little christians keep on making excuses for your slave master don't you? You keep on making excuses for why God is nothing more than a man made lie that was made up centuries ago, and it's hard to believe that there are some people who live in this modern day world of education and science who still believe in such bullshit.
Stop sticking your nose in everyone else's business on here.
Go fuck yourself while you are at it, and tell your God I said to eat shit and die.
FUCK JESUS FUCK GOD AND ALL OF YOU GODDAMN CHRISTIAN SONS OF BITCHES!!!! MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS YOU ASS KISSERS FOR JESUS.
There you go Anonymous.
If believing in God is such a chore, are you really making things better for yourselves? If you even have doubts about His existence, what kind of doubts are you going to have about your relationship with Him?
You're just making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself. Think about it.
"Faith is not easy come by it has to be worked at"
Matthew 11:28-30: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
According to Matthew 11:28-30 having faith is supposed to be easy, but according to Anonymous having faith is very hard and you have to really work at it.
What do you have to say about that one Anonymous?
Of course I realize that Anonymous seems to be too chicken shit to address any of us. He/She keeps on addressing Amy instead, because Anonymous knows deep down that he/she doesn't have a literal prayer of proving their case for Christ nor do they have a literal prayer of being able to debate any of us on here without getting struck down.
Go ahead and admit your defeat Anonymous. There are several people who post on this site who are pros when it comes to striking down the case for Christ. That's why you choose to address Amy only, because she is searching for answers outside of the christian faith and you think you can bring her back under the flock with your christian propaganda and manipulation.
You christians are all alike when it comes to trying to manipulate the weak. So instead of going after a strong willed and highly educated non-believer you choose to go after someone who is trying to leave the faith. Anonymous knows better than to try and debate a strong Non-believer on this site, because Anonymous knows that he/she will get their ass kicked on here.
65 comments here from your testimony, many addressed to you Amy, and you've been totally silent throughout all this discourse.
In general, it sure would be nice if the person who started everything, would at least make a follow-up comment, or two, or three etc..
So how about it Amy....WHERE ARE YOU???
ATF (Who wonders if Amy even came back to see all these comments)
Each of you has a genuine opinion about this matter regarding God. Some of you profess disbelief in God. Some of you do believe He exists. In either case, I find from this discussion string that there are a variety of different ways in which everyone chooses to believe or not believe in the existence (or nonexistence) of God. It reminds me once more that God, FOR ME, is someone that I have to tough it out with and get to know my own way, even when I feel mad enough to punch Him in His face or scared enough to run away. I admit it; my emotions get the better of me with Him sometimes. Still, I'd rather have a God that I struggle with and get closer to in doing so than no God at all -- that's just my opinion.
Am I still angry at God (who, indicentally, I do believe exists)? Sometimes. God answered me through all of you, showing me that we're all just trying to survive on what we know, and since none of us is all-knowing about anything, who can be the real authority on this issue? Close-mindedness is the real enemy, and this is the crappy thing about the Christian church today: it doesn't believe that people have different opinions and approaches to God, but maybe that's starting to change. We're all different and entitled to what we believe.
Thank you for chiming in to advice an honest troubled heart.
Amy, I read your article and you suggest that you should not give up on God.
Can you please define and identify God for us. In other words, if I say that I don't want to stop using my car to go to work, because it makes my life so much easier, I can point to a car in my driveway.
Can you please point or provide "meaning" to the word God so that we may actually understand what you are talking about, thanks.
I wish I could say that God is something that's easy for me to understand. As my first post suggests, I'm frustrated at the fact that I don't understand the concept or person of God more. . . or at least whatever I've been taught about God.
You've got a good question there; I really like it -- a real "quest" kind of question. It's the kind of question someone asks when they want know more about something and don't feel like what they currently know is enough to satisfy them. I love such questions and ask them all the time, but since I don't know everything, I am not the authority on what God is or isn't. I only know that I'm searching for what God may be. That's the best I can say.
Faith is a journey no matter what religion you are or are not a part of. People are always searching for what is true in the world and what is not. Your question is the question that sends people to the highest points on mountain tops and across oceans and lands on adventures that sometimes don't wind up where they think they will. The thing I am not giving up on is my own journey that only I am walking. I can't help you with your's except to say that being real with yourself about what you're seeking and why is a good place to start. If you don't believe in God, the universe will still respond.
This is a shitty answer I know, so fulsh it if you like. As I said, I am not the authority on anything, including my own struggles. I just choose not to quit. That's the best I can do when I have no control over anything else.
Thanks for your post.
May the road rise
rise up to meet you,
May the wind be always
at your back.
May the sun shine warm
upon your face,
And the rains fall soft
upon your fields,
And until we meet again,
May God hold you
In the palm of His hand.
Amy, all I can say is; I hope your quest leads to new horizons that bring you joy. I think your post was special, because it was made with a flavor of hopeful innocence.
I've travelled extensively, and have seen the quests of thousands of people in many different forms and generations.
Living in the quest; to me is a very honest position. However, to live in the quest, positions one to live without the benefit of Certainty on any matter - to include matters given to them by others; God.
A Christian is Certain that their Christian God exists, they no longer quest, and typically disavow any influence that may give them reason to quest.
The latest research, in the past week or so, suggests the religious landscape of the U.S. is undergoing major change. People are moving from religion to religion, looking for that "thing" that will give them "Certainty", in anything, especially God.
I find truth in everything, but it is in context that I must place that truth, such that others may understand me. I'll leave you with a few thoughts as well, perhaps you will find meaning.
"Thirty spokes join together in the hub.
It is because of what is not there that the cart is useful.
Clay is formed into a vessel.
It is because of its emptiness that the vessel is useful.
Cut doors and windows to make a room.
It is because of its emptiness that the room is useful.
Therefore, what is present is used for profit.
But it is in the absence that there is usefulness.
--Laozi"
Amy, it is in the absence, that our life quest becomes useful, meaningful and valuable.
To your thoughts...
It is the absence of meeting the road that makes such a meeting useful/valuable.
It is the absence of wind at our backs that makes it useful/valuable.
It is the absence of the sun's warmth upon a face that makes it useful/valuable.
It is the absence of soft rain upon a field that makes it useful/valuable.
It is in the absence of a previous encounter (debatable perhaps), that meeting again is useful/valuable.
It is in the absence of understanding the concept of God that makes such an understanding useful/valuable.
Amy, you suggest you have found it useful to use your lack of understanding as an inspiration to quest.
However, when you use the word God; you suggest a presence, and therefore - a profit.
As you allude in your article, you are at a cross-road of sorts. Talking about your confusion is one thing; prescribing the word God while being confused is another, it presents confusion to the reader on your sincerity to either be questing or to know what the concept of God Means.
Your words will become more profitable to many, once you are able to present them without conflict. Until then - happy trails.
I've travelled extensively, and have seen the quests of thousands of people in many different forms and generations.
---
Taylor,
So what other countries have you traveled 'extensively' to then?
If you have visited countries where the majority of the population is non-xtian, does it bother you that the crowds of people you see with your eyes, are all doomed to the fires of hell?
I've been to a non-xtian country myself and saw very little desire in their population to swallow this xtian creed of yours.
They were quite content in their own brand of religious beliefs, that did not include your personal jesus.
If the xtian god is the one and only god, then why don't all these non-xtian folks in those countries, have an inborn knowledge of your god/jesus, so they at least have a chance of avoiding this biblical hellfire?
Surely it wasn't their fault that they were raised in a society where the xtian faith was a minority and they weren't 'lucky' enough to be brainwashed as impressionable young children; like the majority of American children are.
Perhaps you should have tried to preach the gospel to as many as you could, while in those places, so you could save their souls from hell, yes?
OR....maybe their beliefs just happen to be just as HUMAN as your own beliefs are, and there is no xtian god.
Nah, how could that be.
A Christian is Certain that their Christian God exists, they no longer quest, and typically disavow any influence that may give them reason to quest.
Oh how we know you xtians are so "certain" of your beliefs.
Yeah, and some are just as certain they have been abducted by little green men from mars to.
Some mentally ill folks have invisible companions that they swear are real and are telling them to do certain things, but luckily we try and keep such folks in padded rooms.
Being "certain" of something, based on one's personal perception, when there is no credible proof outside of that personal perception, is just foolhardy.
Finding others that might agree with one's perception, doesn't make one's perception reality, unless it can be proven independently of each believer, that these perceptions are based in reality.
If you were to attend a convention of UFO alien believers, they would all share the same delusion. They would all have the same basic perception (with some variation of course), but not a single person would have proof-positive to support those UFO/Alien beliefs.
If such proofs existed, then it would be common knowledge that aliens have arrived on earth.
It's the same for your **emotional** belief in your xtian god.
You all share that same 'god' perception, all based on emotions, which **seems** confirmed to you by twisting the perception of events in your life, to fit your desired bill-of-goods, but not one of you has proof of your god's existence that would convince anyone, except those who **WISH** to believe in it.
In a nutshell, your god (or any god) plays this great hide and seek game, just as UFO's and ghosts and Bigfoot do the same to the general public eye.
The latest research, in the past week or so, suggests the religious landscape of the U.S. is undergoing major change. People are moving from religion to religion, looking for that "thing" that will give them "Certainty", in anything, especially God.
Ah, and here lies the 'key' to it all.
If god was real, god would not be so hard to find.
God would see a person trying to discover him and make himself known right then and there. A person would not need to go through various religions and their subsequent different sects (as I myself did), just to discover this creator god of the universe.
If this god really does function in such a childish manner, who the hell would want such a immature prankster god????
Clay is formed into a vessel.
It is because of its emptiness that the vessel is useful.
Actually, not-so-much.
It's not the "emptiness" itself but rather it's ability to hold something, that we humans wish to put inside it, that really counts.
The fact that something has a state of 'empty', is not in itself the important feature, but rather again, that it has an ability to hold something valuable that counts.
Cut doors and windows to make a room.
It is because of its emptiness that the room is useful
Same problem here.
The empty room isn't very valuable, but it's ability to hold furniture and people, is what makes it valuable.
Now I THINK what you are trying to imply here Taylor, is that Amy feels an emptiness inside her, because she can't feel your god and hence, your god hasn't filled that emptiness up (yet)?
You therefore believe she feels this present emptiness because she is actually longing for some god being.
Just because a human might feel a longing for a "thing" that hasn't been personally discovered yet, doesn't automatically mean this longing is for some creator god being.
You seem to assume here that if someone is, say, feeling lonely, that only your god can fix that loneliness.
Almost all of us who escaped your religion, felt the pangs of that escape for a time.
Many feel lonely for awhile, not because someone had actually killed this god, but mostly it's because they lost their god-friends in that process.
God simply doesn't keep someone company, mainly because god only exists in one's mind, so it's the human companionship that the former believer will tend to miss.
Many in their testimonies here have stated this very problem of breaking from their church.
While they feel cheated and angry because god was just a mere illusion and they had been lied to for a long time about this illusive god, that in itself doesn't cause them to feel lonely really.
It's the loss of what seemed to be their former "god-purpose" and the loss of the people that they believed were their friends (but who suddenly run from them), that makes them feel lonely for a time.
Once they find a new purpose in life and new friends to go with that purpose, then the loneliness feelings vanish again.
No god needed, see.
Humans have a tendency to grieve when something familiar in their lives is taken away.
Many grieve when they lose their jobs, or someone they know dies.
Heck, many would probably grieve if some of their material possessions were lost to them.
So, the fact that someone might feel lonely when they start to realize that their former god beliefs are fading fast from them, doesn't mean the problem here is one of a need to restore that god belief, anymore than we should restore a Santa belief to an adult who might wish for those simpler times of their former childhood.
Life requires us to GROW UP!!!
Growing up, means learning how to deal with life on this planet, as it is, not as we wish it to be. We need to learn to accept what reality is, rather than trying to force pretend things of fiction, to become our reality.
Santa, the Easter Bunny and all the many gods, are childhood myths, that at some point need to be realized as mythical beings, as we mature into adulthood.
To try hard to hold onto such cozy myths, is to try and mentally avoid the maturing process where we learn to cope with reality.
It's time society learns to solve it's own problems of living and not form mental crutches of pretend gods to shoulder life's problems, for them.
No god in human history ever did a darn thing to help the human race, and conversely, such beliefs have brought about the untimely death of many people instead.
e.g. killing in the name of some god
Wishful thinking of the mystical variety, is not the cure-all for society's ails.
It's time society faced head-on the problems of this earth, and not stick our heads in the sand while we pray to invented gods to do our dirty-work, for us.
ATF (Who see's a parallel of the steadfast childlike xtian belief, to the kids of that old Star-Trek episode, where the kids aged very slowly but never emotionally matured, even though they had lived a very long time already)
South America, Africa, Levant and other bordering Mediterranean countries, Eastern and Southwestern Asia, etc.
ATF: "If you have visited countries where the majority of the population is non-xtian, does it bother you that the crowds of people you see with your eyes, are all doomed to the fires of hell?"
Actually, ATF I'm a naturalist, the only fires of hell I think anyone is going to be subjected to, is the words "fires of hell", and typically from an evangelical.
ATF: "I've been to a non-xtian country myself and saw very little desire in their population to swallow this xtian creed of yours."
Which Christian credo have I suggested? I do not hold to any Christian credo. However, I agree with you, that many of the countries I have travelled to, have no need of Christianity; most prominently Saudi Arabia comes to mind. They tend to butcher people in their open markets on Sunday for pushing Christian rhetoric.
Taylor: "They were quite content in their own brand of religious beliefs, that did not include your personal jesus."
Agree, except that I don't have a personal Jesus. Can you posit where I have suggested I have a personal friend in Jesus?
Taylor: "If the xtian god is the one and only god, then why don't all these non-xtian folks in those countries, have an inborn knowledge of your god/jesus, so they at least have a chance of avoiding this biblical hellfire?"
Good question, I've been asking Christians this for years. It does seem totally unjust that we are not born with a God brain chip.
ATF: "Surely it wasn't their fault that they were raised in a society where the xtian faith was a minority and they weren't 'lucky' enough to be brainwashed as impressionable young children; like the majority of American children are."
True, the Christian solution to this problem seems to be proselytizing to cover their bases. However, since I am not a Christian, and I am not religious, I would have to say that we are all subjected to our societal influences, no matter what they are.
ATF: "Perhaps you should have tried to preach the gospel to as many as you could, while in those places, so you could save their souls from hell, yes?"
Well, again, I'd have to actually beieve in some form of gospel.
ATF: "OR....maybe their beliefs just happen to be just as HUMAN as your own beliefs are, and there is no xtian god. Nah, how could that be."
Well, yes, my beliefs are definitely human, but I'm looking at reality. Hopefully, we are seeing the same thing.
ATF: "Oh how we know you xtians are so "certain" of your beliefs."
Again, I'm not a Christian.
ATF: "Yeah, and some are just as certain they have been abducted by little green men from mars to."
I agree.
ATF: "Some mentally ill folks have invisible companions that they swear are real and are telling them to do certain things, but luckily we try and keep such folks in padded rooms."
Amen.
ATF: "Being "certain" of something, based on one's personal perception, when there is no credible proof outside of that personal perception, is just foolhardy."
There is a difference between "certain", and "Certain". While a human may be certain of their beliefs and even facts to a great extent, based on their subjective interpretation of reality, they can't be said to hold Certainty in a universal sense.
To hold Certainty, suggest a Universal point of view.
ATF: "Finding others that might agree with one's perception, doesn't make one's perception reality, unless it can be proven independently of each believer, that these perceptions are based in reality."
Agree. However, even if two people agree on a finding, it would be foolhardy to suggest that their finding be given a Universal context, unless their finding suggests that they are both omniscient.
ATF: "If you were to attend a convention of UFO alien believers, they would all share the same delusion. They would all have the same basic perception (with some variation of course), but not a single person would have proof-positive to support those UFO/Alien beliefs.
If such proofs existed, then it would be common knowledge that aliens have arrived on earth."
It would only be common to those, who experienced such an event. To all others, who get the information second hand, its hearsay. Some philosophers don't accept hearsay to equate to knowledge.
ATF: "It's the same for your **emotional** belief in your xtian god..."
Again, I'm not a Christian.
ATF: "In a nutshell, your god (or any god) plays this great hide and seek game, just as UFO's and ghosts and Bigfoot do the same to the general public eye."
And purple pixies, pink unicorns, etc.
ATF: "Ah, and here lies the 'key' to it all. If god was real, god would not be so hard to find."
ATF, even though I am a naturalist, I don't take the position that I am going to define god for people. The word god has to be given meaning by the one using the word.
However, I reserve the right to taxonomically identify and correlate another persons' explanation for god, in terms of natural phenomena - that's my prerogative.
If someone calls a butterfinger candy bar a god, I'll shake my head and say, yes, to you, the almighty god butterfinger is great. However, I just see a candy bar - nothing more, and I will not value it to be worth anything more than a candy bar.
I don't have to stifle a person from their journey in life, in order to not accept their point of view. Allowing a person to quest in their life, is akin to letting them intellectually grow.
I would much rather, nourish a persons' sincere quest in life, so that they may grow.
While I don't have a use for the word god, I don't tell others that the word is useless. First, because it's a personally assigned word to something, secondly, I don't tend to speak in terms of Universal Certainty, thirdly, I don't restrict the use of the word for all time, because I have no idea what my experiences tomorrw will be (however, today, I would be considered an atheist).
ATF: "God would see a person trying to discover him and make himself known right then and there. A person would not need to go through various religions and their subsequent different sects (as I myself did), just to discover this creator god of the universe."
If we presume to know a God's intentions, by giving meaning to the word God, in order to speculate, then I suppose we could come to that conclusion.
However, I find no reason to presume anything in Certain Universal terms, especially from a God point of view. Typically, it's the religious who seem to have problems differentiating between their own thoughts, and the thoughts they suggest permeate from a God.
ATF: "If this god really does function in such a childish manner, who the hell would want such a immature prankster god????"
I don't know, maybe someone who values immature prankster gods :-)
Taylor: "Clay is formed into a vessel. It is because of its emptiness that the vessel is useful."
ATF: "Actually, not-so-much. It's not the "emptiness" itself but rather it's ability to hold something, that we humans wish to put inside it, that really counts. The fact that something has a state of 'empty', is not in itself the important feature, but rather again, that it has an ability to hold something valuable that counts."
Waxing philosophy here, but the message, is that the importance is found in the freedom to "become".
The state of empty (range of freedom) is the principle requirement, that enables something to become. For example; an empty clay vessel with nothing in it, is useful, because it allows the clay vessel to become. It could become a clay vessel that houses; water, food, minerals, etc., in a variety of different states.
Once the clay vessel is filled however, it has become. Freedom to become, is useful, especially for a person who is questing in their life.
ATF: "Same problem here.
The empty room isn't very valuable, but it's ability to hold furniture and people, is what makes it valuable."
Again, empty equates to range of freedom to become. Without room to grow or become, a persons' "ability" or "capacity" to become is useless because it has no opportunity.
ATF: "Now I THINK what you are trying to imply here Taylor, is that Amy feels an emptiness inside her, because she can't feel your god and hence, your god hasn't filled that emptiness up (yet)?"
Actually, I read Amy's article and posts, and have noticed a subtle nuance in the underlying current that seems familiar to me.
Amy seems to have made some discoveries as well; notice the abrupt departure.
Amy's post doesn't suggest that one not give up on god (personal), but not to give up on God (Universal), even though they are challenged and frustrated.
What I have implied to Amy, is that although they are frustrated because their vessel is empty (no knowledge of a Universal God), their vesself is useful because of its emptiness (range of freedom) of such knowledge.
They have the potential to become; more knowledgeable, more cognizant of reality, etc. In essence, they have not shut out reality, they are still questing for answers but in terms of what tomorrow may bring. I have little reservation with that.
However, I find the use of the word God (Universal), to presuppose tomorrow and the true nature of questing - the two used together cause conflit.
I consider the use of the word God (Universal), to suggest one has already envisioned what their clay vessel will hold, in the future. In short, a person isn't truly questing with total freedom; because their vessel isn't really empty - it has a cover over the opening and a sign that says "reserved".
If one suggests they are truly questing, that vessel needs to remain empty and the lid open, if one is to make a case for honest discovery and enlightenment.
The major obstacle in questing (personal), and finding a God (Universal), is that one must assume they will become capable of identifying such a God (Universal) by making an aquaintance (personal).
I don't discount the questing, it's what gives us excitement and fulfillment in life; however, I have reservations that an individual person, will be capable of assigning Universal Certainty of a God - without becoming a Universal God themselves.
It's a paradox of sorts; if a person's vessel is open and they honestly quest, their vessel will become full with the knowledge required to identify a Universal God. However, once they reach such a point, their vessel is already full, and they have become Godlike in experience and knowledge.
ATF: "You therefore believe she feels this present emptiness because she is actually longing for some god being."
In the words of Amy; "I am not the authority on what God is or isn't. I only know that I'm searching for what God may be. That's the best I can say."
Actually, Amy suggests she is searching for what a God may be, because Amy said so.
ATF: "Just because a human might feel a longing for a "thing" that hasn't been personally discovered yet, doesn't automatically mean this longing is for some creator god being.
You seem to assume here that if someone is, say, feeling lonely, that only your god can fix that loneliness."
The "thing" Amy is seeking is God, I am not assuming lonliness as the spark for their questing.
I don't have a God or a god, but, if I had a god, I'd suspect that Amy wouldn't appreciate me demanding my god to be their God.
ATF: "Almost all of us who escaped your religion, felt the pangs of that escape for a time.
Many feel lonely for awhile, not because someone had actually killed this god, but mostly it's because they lost their god-friends in that process."
Again, me and John Lennon's Imagine have something in common - no religion.
However, I'd like to note that when I consciously made the deliberate acknowledgement that Christianity was a cultural phenomena and had nothing to do with Truth, except in terms of dictatorial dogmaticism, I didn't lose much sleep.
I was extremely peeved at religions in general, becuase I was intellectually forced to erase and reconcile major parts of my life without conflicting dogma.
I was not socially traumatized, because I am extremely independent, and have always held a small group of friends who can see past the cover of a book.
ATF: "God simply doesn't keep someone company, mainly because god only exists in one's mind, so it's the human companionship that the former believer will tend to miss."
Except in my case, as one who is extremely independent and holds a very small group of friends with common experiences.
ATF: "Many in their testimonies here have stated this very problem of breaking from their church."
Agreed, there are many people who lose a social setting, once they leave the faith.
ATF: "While they feel cheated and angry because god was just a mere illusion and they had been lied to for a long time about this illusive god, that in itself doesn't cause them to feel lonely really."
I have not spoken to lonliness, however, since you bring it up; many people do feel some loss. Imagine when a child learns that Santa Clause isn't real anymore, it's not the friends or social network they miss, it's the thrill and anticipation that the impossible can still be possible that they miss - many times.
In short, their clay vessel marked "magical", is shattered, never to provide a range of freeom for the becoming of magical elements, such as Santa Clause.
ATF: "It's the loss of what seemed to be their former "god-purpose" and the loss of the people that they believed were their friends (but who suddenly run from them), that makes them feel lonely for a time."
Agreed, there are many who are hurt in this manner.
ATF: "Once they find a new purpose in life and new friends to go with that purpose, then the loneliness feelings vanish again.
No god needed, see."
:-) Yes, I do see.
ATF: "Humans have a tendency to grieve when something familiar in their lives is taken away.
Many grieve when they lose their jobs, or someone they know dies.
Heck, many would probably grieve if some of their material possessions were lost to them."
I know, imagine how much a devoutly religious young women grieves when they lose their virginity. Just another vessel created by religion, so that it can be shattered, cause grief, and keep them coming back seeking forgiveness, knowing there will never be the possibility of gaining their virginity back - they carry a lifetime of guilt and need for religious intervention.
ATF: "So, the fact that someone might feel lonely when they start to realize that their former god beliefs are fading fast from them, doesn't mean the problem here is one of a need to restore that god belief, anymore than we should restore a Santa belief to an adult who might wish for those simpler times of their former childhood."
So, once a clay vessel is shattered, it shouldn't be pieced back together again. I'd say that I am not sure piecing it back together is possible, one would always be mentally cognizant of the glued cracks and seams at some cognitive level.
However, Amy doesn't appear to suggest they have a shattered vessel. While Amy suggests they are frustrated by lack of knowledge, their vessel is quite empty and intact.
ATF: "Life requires us to GROW UP!!!"
Amen.
ATF: "Growing up, means learning how to deal with life on this planet, as it is, not as we wish it to be."
I'd add that there is a lot of discovery left in this Universe, and our ability to mold our reality to become has not found its limits.
There is much we can wish things to be, and in many cases, make them become. However, there is a difference between using the uncreated to create, and suggesting that whatever becomes created has always been without assistance or change.
ATF: "We need to learn to accept what reality is, rather than trying to force pretend things of fiction, to become our reality."
Will not get into complexity or chaos theory, but a lot of fiction in history, has become non-fiction today.
ATF: "Santa, the Easter Bunny and all the many gods, are childhood myths, that at some point need to be realized as mythical beings, as we mature into adulthood.
To try hard to hold onto such cozy myths, is to try and mentally avoid the maturing process where we learn to cope with reality."
I agree, holding onto coping mechanisms beyond necessity, stagnates ones psychological development.
It is in the individual's best interest to overcome an event that requires them to cope to the point of dysfunction.
ATF: "It's time society learns to solve it's own problems of living and not form mental crutches of pretend gods to shoulder life's problems, for them."
Well, that requires intervention on behalf of children, who are young, impressionable and exposed to religious beliefs or crutches.
ATF: "No god in human history ever did a darn thing to help the human race, and conversely, such beliefs have brought about the untimely death of many people instead.
e.g. killing in the name of some god"
While I don't have a god, it doesn't mean that someone hasn't taken the concept and implied to towards the Pope or Saints.
We may agree that the Pope and The Saints, are less than gods, many believe these figures need to be venerated as having god status, based on the goodness they have brought to humanity.
Again, I don't define the word god, because it's a personal assignment made by the individual. If someone suggested to me the Pope were god, I'd say he was nothing more than human with the title Pope.
However, there could be as many gods, as people can imagine reasons and objects to be given the name god. It's why many philosophers, reject the notion of a personal god - it's only valid to the individual and thus, holds little meaning to others in terms of experience.
ATF: "Wishful thinking of the mystical variety, is not the cure-all for society's ails.
It's time society faced head-on the problems of this earth, and not stick our heads in the sand while we pray to invented gods to do our dirty-work, for us."
I'll second the notion, that sticking one's head in the sand is not a way to prepare for tomorrow.
Thanks for the post.
Actually, ATF I'm a naturalist, the only fires of hell I think anyone is going to be subjected to, is the words "fires of hell", and typically from an evangelical.
----
Well Taylor, it seems my jumping from post to post on this site, and my posting in haste to your comments, allowed me to confuse you, Taylor, with this xtian "Tyler" that posted several times before you here on the subject of Amy.
So please disregard my comments that didn't apply to you.
Sorry about the confusion.
I'll try and answer you this weekend, time permitting, on your interesting comments.
ATF (Who admits he made an oops, but does not consider it to be a 'sin' to do so...mainly because atheist can't really sin [g] )
Taylor (who thoroughly enjoys ATF's company on this site)
Firstly, thanks for you kind words. It's much appreciated.
Now, I wondered how I could so easily assume you were a xtian from your name.
Not only did we have a xtian "tyler' posting on this thread, but we do indeed have a troll on other thread(s) who uses the name Taylor to.
See this thread for the other Taylor postings:
http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2008/01/if-i-could-still-believe-i-would.html
The difference here, is that you typed in the "Taylor" name, where the troll has an account registered under that name.
I would suggest making yourself your own account to post with here....just a thought.
Now, to reply to your post to me......
I have to say I'm impressed with the many countries you have visited !!
Saudi Arabia must be a country where the xtian god forgot to inform them about their hell fate, so I guess all of them are headed for the fires of hell, that is, if they don't hurry up and worship his son jebus.
Gosh, could it be that the xtian god play's favorites....nah
Could it be, each society made up their own god(s)...nah
"It does seem totally unjust that we are not born with a God brain chip."
While recent studies of the brain do show what is commonly called, The God Brain, this doesn't ensure this god brain will latch onto the so called xtain god.
In fact, it will latch onto any god we are exposed to as children.
So I guess the xtian god did a half-assed job of installing this piece of brain in us.
Funny though, many xtians have told me that god instilled in us his morality and rules, yet he left out the most important fact about himself. Very odd indeed.
"If someone calls a butterfinger candy bar a god, I'll shake my head and say, yes, to you, the almighty god butterfinger is great"
While I do agree with you on the surface here, there is also a problem here to.
If belief in the butterfinger god makes a person do things that affect others in their lives, or that person finds a way to convince many others about this odd candy bar god, then we can land up where we are now in America, with the majority believing in some god myth and acting out accordingly.
This concept kind of reminds me of cows being sacred India, and thus one is forbidden to kill and eat them, all while everyone is starving to death and the cows run free.
At least, it used to be that way when I was a boy and taught this in history class.
"Waxing philosophy here, but the message, is that the importance is found in the freedom to "become."
This sure resembles the Buddhist philosophy, does it not?
Where were you when we had very long-winded discussions with a Buddhist poster, not so long ago?
"For example; an empty clay vessel with nothing in it, is useful, because it allows the clay vessel to become.
It could become a clay vessel that houses; water, food, minerals, etc., in a variety of different states."
I see this more as 'potential' I guess.
i.e. it has the potential to become a pot for instance.
"Become", in the way you use it here, makes it sound more like it has a life of it's own, in a way.
Yeah, probably just a case of semantics.
"Freedom to become, is useful, especially for a person who is questing in their life."
Isn't this "freedom to become", something anyone would have in a free country?
I don't understand why this concept needs such definition/discussion etc..?
"Amy seems to have made some discoveries as well; notice the abrupt departure"
I think Amy had a sudden bout of FEAR. Fear about turning away from the god beliefs she was brainwashed into.
We've seen this sort of thing a number of times, especially where the ingrained fear of hell fire keeps someone from leaving their fold.
"In essence, they have not shut out reality, they are still questing for answers but in terms of what tomorrow may bring. I have little reservation with that"
I agree. Once one shuns the brainwashing effects, one has a whole 'world' of view points to choose from.
"I have reservations that an individual person, will be capable of assigning Universal Certainty of a God - without becoming a Universal God themselves.........However, once they reach such a point, their vessel is already full, and they have become Godlike in experience and knowledge."
Could you explain this further please?
"Actually, Amy suggests she is searching for what a God may be, because Amy said so."
Yes, I agree, that is what she is attempting to do in her 'quest'.
Assuming (as the atheist I am) that there is no creator god out there to discover, then Amy might be on a very frustrating quest, for a very long long time, no?
I guess it's possible to convince oneself that god has been found, but in my opinion, that choice cannot be made by finding any empirical evidence to support it, so therefore, it would have to be made emotionally alone.
"I don't have a God or a god, but, if I had a god, I'd suspect that Amy wouldn't appreciate me demanding my god to be their God"
Couldn't agree with you more here.
"I know, imagine how much a devoutly religious young women grieves when they lose their virginity. Just another vessel created by religion, so that it can be shattered, cause grief, and keep them coming back seeking forgiveness..."
As we all know, the xtian dogma loves to fill their followers with tremendous GUILT.
They pray, feel better perhaps for a short time, then need to pray again....Repeat as necessary.
The xtian god is a god of war and guilt trips, no doubt.
"I'd add that there is a lot of discovery left in this Universe, and our ability to mold our reality to become has not found its limits"
While I'm sure this is true, it also doesn't mean we should make assumptions about what those discoveries will bring, in knowledge of the universe.
Many do just this and live their lives based on what they HOPE will be found true eventually.
Me...I live in the present, with whatever knowledge exists now.
If that knowledge needs to be rectified from time to time, then I'll adjust accordingly.
"Will not get into complexity or chaos theory, but a lot of fiction in history, has become non-fiction today"
As a huge Science Fiction fan, I know how true this is.
However, most of things came to be because of human invention and discovery.
"Well, that requires intervention on behalf of children, who are young, impressionable and exposed to religious beliefs or crutches."
Alas, it's not really possible to reach out to children and save them from their parents/society's brainwashing.
However, if we reach the current adult population now, then eventually this brainwashing of kids will come to an end, just because this god belief will fade away.
Again Taylor, sorry about the confusion, but I think you can see how easily it happened.
ATF (Who wonders if the "butterfinger god" would also have a bad case of the dropsies)
Taylor is definitely one of the troll pseudonyms used.
ATF: "The difference here, is that you typed in the "Taylor" name, where the troll has an account registered under that name. I would suggest making yourself your own account to post with here....just a thought."
Will definitely keep that option open, especially if the registered Taylor shows up on this thread.
ATF: "Saudi Arabia must be a country where the xtian god forgot to inform them about their hell fate, so I guess all of them are headed for the fires of hell, that is, if they don't hurry up and worship his son jebus.
Gosh, could it be that the xtian god play's favorites....nah
Could it be, each society made up their own god(s)...nah"
Yep, seems the Muslims got left out of the Christian God memo.
ATF: "While recent studies of the brain do show what is commonly called, The God Brain, this doesn't ensure this god brain will latch onto the so called xtain god."
I'd suspect the brain as it matures, to absorb and process the environment in increasing levels of complexity; while, in the beginning stages, basic linguistic expression isn't structured with known meaning, but over time, communication becomes possible.
Although, meaning (understanding) may or may not be associated with great clarity to the words used.
I don't mean to over simplify the underlying neural processes, in such developmental stages, but when I see books or references to topics like, The God Brain, I believe what I am experiencing is a metaphorical description of how cognitively solicitous we are as children, and someone's attempt to market a book.
If we consider a genetic predisposition that primes varying levels of cognitive solicitation and symbolic/sense processing; it wouldn't be a far stretch to suggest that a Brain will entrap as much as it can without restraint - even the word God.
I tend to believe we have more of an 'Anything' Brain, where Anything describes what gets neurally netted and held for cognitive inspection, either at that moment or later on by memory.
ATF: "In fact, it will latch onto any god we are exposed to as children. So I guess the xtian god did a half-assed job of installing this piece of brain in us.
Funny though, many xtians have told me that god instilled in us his morality and rules, yet he left out the most important fact about himself. Very odd indeed."
Yes, odd that we don't seem pre-dispositional with knowledge, it seems knowledge must be based on experience, memory and reflective physical associations.
To the religious who feel everyone is predisposed with knowledge, it does seem humorous to witness so many people with different thoughts on what a God or god is, or could be ;-)
ATF: "While I do agree with you on the surface here, there is also a problem here to. If belief in the butterfinger god makes a person do things that affect others in their lives, or that person finds a way to convince many others about this odd candy bar god, then we can land up where we are now in America, with the majority believing in some god myth and acting out accordingly."
Totally agree. I don't perceive someone who uses a candy bar god, to incite violence to be any less guilty of crimes against humanity, than someone who pulls out the Christian God concept as a tool for persuasion.
I'll even go as far as saying, using language to incite violence isn't limited to the word God or god, I'd have a problem with someone who uses their pet lawnmower as a tool to persuade others into violent acts.
I am probably seen by the religious as being inconsiderate because I find all anthropically painted words to hold equal meaning to me - the words represent the person's confused cognitive state, or their cunning to attract a following.
The Pet Lawnmower, Christian God, Butterfinger god, and Flying Spaghetti Monster hold no meaning for me, other than creative word play, and the initial indicators of a speaker's state of mind.
ATF: "This concept kind of reminds me of cows being sacred India, and thus one is forbidden to kill and eat them, all while everyone is starving to death and the cows run free. At least, it used to be that way when I was a boy and taught this in history class."
Still true in some parts.
You'd enjoy the history and culture of this ancient practice still alive and well.
"Roop Kanwar (c. 1969 – 4 September 1987) was an 18-year old Rajput woman who committed sati on 4 September 1987 at Deorala village of Sikar district in Rajasthan, India. At the time of her death, she had been married for eight months to Maal Singh, her recently deceased husband, and had no children. She went to her death in wedding robes."
Sati is a Hindu practice whereby a living widow immolates herself on the funeral pyre of her husband. The self-sacrifice is seen by traditional Hindu's as the epitome of wifely devotion to their husband.
ATF: "This sure resembles the Buddhist philosophy, does it not?"
Well, in an SW/SE Asian sense, I suppose. However, Laozi was a Chinese philosopher of ancient China, and theoretically the contemporary of Confucius.
His character is considered by many scholars to be of mythical origin. However, his cultural character as developed in legend, was said to have risen between 6-4BCE.
Noteworthy, Laozi is revered as a god in religious forms of Taoism not Buddhism. He was considered the contemporary of Confucius.
Laozi has been given credit for publishing the Daodejing Tao Te Ch’ing; the central Taoist work.
What is interesting is that this mythical figure lived at least 4 to 6 hundred years before Rome's proclamation of Christianity as a state religion.
Interesting because; Laozi is typically referred to as, One of the Three Pure Ones.
Eventually, Christianity established a set of Three Pure Ones, by Catholic tradition; father, son, holy ghost at least 325CE - six hundred years later. I suppose it could be a coincidence ;-) In any case; Christianity surely doesn't seem to have bragging rights in the area of divine originality.
I chose to quote Laozi, based on the philosophy of the words and how I contextually portrayed them; however, I am not a Taoist, nor do I believe him to be a god in my naturalist terms. Like the great Butterfinger god, I stick to what I know, the literary reflections of a cultural personality set in ancient China BCE.
ATF: "Where were you when we had very long-winded discussions with a Buddhist poster, not so long ago?"
I do remember the Buddhist proponent you refer to. I chose to stay free of that conversation for a few reasons. For one, Buddhism has many different traditions.
I could have offered alternative Buddhist approaches, but then, I felt that those who didn't understand the underlying principles of the many forms of Buddhism would perceive a dual between two Buddhist points of view, as fighting over which tradition was better.
It would have been analogous to a Southern Baptist and a Catholic debating over which religious tradition has the more correct version of Christianity.
:-) I cited Laozi's philosophic words; whether they were his or not, and I perked a few eyes.
I don't have a problem pulling words from writings. When I do, I do not suggest that the words I extract, frame and apply, exemplify the exact intent of the original author. Or, if in a canon, the overarching theme or intent of the author or publisher.
ATF: "I see this more as 'potential' I guess.
i.e. it has the potential to become a pot for instance."
I don't want to give the impression that I believe a clay pot, has life. The clay pot is being used analogously.
ATF: ""Become", in the way you use it here, makes it sound more like it has a life of it's own, in a way. Yeah, probably just a case of semantics."
A clay pot, with gold is a 'pot of gold', while it had great potential to become many things, based on how I wanted to fill it, it was filled with gold.
If I chose to fill the pot with gold, is loses its emptiness; and the valuable quality that originally gave the pot a purpose.
The 'pot of gold', is now 'profitable', I can sell that pot of gold, but in becoming profitable, the pot of gold is no longer useful as a pot with infinite potential; I have traded potential for profit through such a transformation.
Sometimes, people get depressed, confused, etc., because they perceive their pot full, but not profitable. It is in these times, that we can offer them some wisdom, by providing them with an alternative; to 'empty' their pot, and try again.
Our values change over time, therefore, our pot of things, loses value over time; we all need to empty our pot every so often and begin anew.
ATF: "Isn't this "freedom to become", something anyone would have in a free country?
I don't understand why this concept needs such definition/discussion etc..?"
To live in a free-country, doesn't make everyone free on all counts.
There are many people living in the U.S., who are not mentally free, because they have learned to restrict their mental perception of reality using the cultural filters they have adorned.
Again, one must be capable of emptying the pot (useful), before they can be mentally free to grow (profit).
ATF: "I think Amy had a sudden bout of FEAR."
:-) I referred to Amy's abrupt stop in posting. Amy's last post;
"And until we meet again,
May God hold you
In the palm of His hand."
I am not going to profile here, let's just say we may likely have a different view of Amy's character, etc. Amy has sought it fruitful to leave us with a generous and kind God personality - not a mean, cruel or vile being.
Amy: "I stand here, wishing I could have the good things about Christianity in my life but not believing I am strong enough to chance the bad stuff."
Amy, in the original article, seems to have a problem with people using God as a tool of abuse. Amy doesn't suggest, that Christianity is all bad, nor does Amy suggest God isn't Real, just mean, IMHO.
ATF: "Fear about turning away from the god beliefs she was brainwashed into."
I agree that the end of Amy's article, suggests a fear of God though, not only because of how Christians have used God as a tool of abuse, but because Amy believes that God is real, vengeful and abusive as well. However, we can not forget that Amy left a God bed of roses as a parting thought. Just my opinion.
ATF: "We've seen this sort of thing a number of times, especially where the ingrained fear of hell fire keeps someone from leaving their fold."
I agree, when a person believes a God is real, and capable of torture, they do tend to submit to their fear; all the more reason to empty their pot.
ATF: "I agree. Once one shuns the brainwashing effects, one has a whole 'world' of view points to choose from."
Yes :-)
Taylor: "I have reservations that an individual person, will be capable of assigning Universal Certainty of a God - without becoming a Universal God themselves.........However, once they reach such a point, their vessel is already full, and they have become Godlike in experience and knowledge."
ATF: "Could you explain this further please?"
Some say that there is a being, let's say outside the Universe, but not involved in human affairs, as a common example of how some perceive a God.
This God being, is omnipotent and holds ultimate knowledge; knowledge of all things to have been, to be, and ever to be. Knowledge, of how to transform the Universe into any form; using all forms of matter and substance; from radiantly reflective matter to dark matter and energy.
When someone tells me, they "know" God; and speak on a God's behalf, they suggest they hold Divine ESP, and therefore have equal Knowledge as such a God.
If a person actually 'does' have such Knowledge; then they are making the statement that they are a God's equal, because Ultimate Knowledge has no bounds, can not be confined and in essence - makes one - infinitely all powerful.
When one has reached such a sagacious summit of Knowledge - they have become God-like, as their pot (mind) is infinitely full. They no longer have the potential to become, they are All, or omniferous without transformative bounds.
Now, some religions teach their followers the folly of saying they know what God is or thinks, etc.
Traditional or orthodox Jews believe it blasphemous to stuff words in their God's mouth. Imagine a Jewish follower speaking on a Supreme God's behalf; there are only a few options, either the Jew is putting words in the Supreme God's mouth, or...the Jew is suggesting they have Divine ESP - making them God.
The Jewish character Jesus as portrayed in the bible, was finally put to death, for making comments on behalf of such a God - and refusing to claim differently in front of the biblical character, Pontius Pilate.
ATF: "Yes, I agree, that is what she is attempting to do in her 'quest'."
Well, hopefully Amy figures out how her pot was filled with words like God, etc., so that she can make an educated journey.
ATF: "Assuming (as the atheist I am) that there is no creator god out there to discover, then Amy might be on a very frustrating quest, for a very long long time, no?"
If Amy is seeking to connect with a creator god, she only need look in the mirror and say god.
If we are to limit Amy to seeking the Christian version of a Creator God, based on their traditional requirements of supernatural and transcendent, then we could conclude that Amy would have to figure out how to escape this Universe and natural reality in order to connect with such a Creator God.
However, Amy may have an entirely different view of what a God is, or isn't.
I'll say this; I'll never find the Christian God, if the concept requires the terms of supernatural or transcendent; because I accept that I live as part of one natural universe, that I can't escape.
ATF: "I guess it's possible to convince oneself that god has been found, but in my opinion, that choice cannot be made by finding any empirical evidence to support it, so therefore, it would have to be made emotionally alone."
It depends on how a person defines god and the evidence that would be required to support the concept I suppose.
There are historical philosophers who believe that our consciousness is empirical proof of God.
If one attempts to define their concept of God in terms of nature, then there is indeed empirical evidence they can cite. However, they would not be Christian by tradition or doctrine.
Those things in nature that are exceedingly wonderful, surprising and brilliant, that exceed my vocabulary, do not deserve to be reduced to a puny three letters, for me.
ATF: "As we all know, the xtian dogma loves to fill their followers with tremendous GUILT.
They pray, feel better perhaps for a short time, then need to pray again....Repeat as necessary.
The xtian god is a god of war and guilt trips, no doubt."
That is how the Christian God is presented in the bible and taught by Christian leaders, glad to be free from that pit of despair.
ATF: "While I'm sure this is true, it also doesn't mean we should make assumptions about what those discoveries will bring, in knowledge of the universe."
I agree, if we knew what tomorrow brought, with Certainty, we'd be the Christian God, but in natural form :-)
ATF: "Many do just this and live their lives based on what they HOPE will be found true eventually."
I agree, there are many people who have irrational expectations that can never or may never come to pass.
ATF: "Me...I live in the present, with whatever knowledge exists now. If that knowledge needs to be rectified from time to time, then I'll adjust accordingly."
Amen.
ATF: "As a huge Science Fiction fan, I know how true this is.
However, most of things came to be because of human invention and discovery."
While I don't hang on the HOPE of humanity's ability to continue to invent or discover; I do tend to be optimistic if history serves as a guide - no religion has succeeded in stopping humanity from moving forward in knowledge acquisition.
ATF: "Alas, it's not really possible to reach out to children and save them from their parents/society's brainwashing."
Only, in terms of education, and culture.
ATF: "However, if we reach the current adult population now, then eventually this brainwashing of kids will come to an end, just because this god belief will fade away."
As long as one person is left on this earth that can profit from the use of the word god - there will always be a need to continue education. To think beyond this requires a hope, which is unsupported by history.
However, I will remain hopeful with you ATF; just as I hope I rise in the morning ;-)
ATF: "Again Taylor, sorry about the confusion, but I think you can see how easily it happened."
Yep, no worries, it's been fun.
Taylor (Who enjoys chatting with a fellow atheist)