A troubled past built on lies
sent in by John
I've been coming here for several years now. Often times agreeing with many of the deconverts and smiling at the realization of those who had been in it for far too long and where suddenly shown the "light" of what Christianity truly is. But in the whole time I have yet to post my own testimony.
So this is my story.....
I was born to parents who had completely separate beliefs. My father was a devout catholic, and my mother was more or less simply a believer in individuality. They divorced each other when I was about 3 years old, much too young for me to remember or to really care much about the divorce. Anyways, after they divorced, my father's lawyer screwed him over and my mother received custody of me virtually by default. By then, she had remarried to an extremely abusive man who took quite a bit of pleasure punching me in the face, stomach, and throwing me around whenever I did anything "wrong".
For the next decade I had to deal with this and was rewarded with very little memory of my childhood up to 13. So naturally the visits to my father were more or less bliss in my eyes. He never laid a hand on me, my grandmother spoiled me all the time, and all the while they brainwashed me with the lies of the church. Being an impressionable young lad, I only saw that these people weren't treating me horribly and the idea of a deity standing beside me was a great comfort to me. I would spend hours with a bible in my lap reading the stories of moses, Adam and eve, the stories in revelations, all of them until my eyes hurt. It even got to the point that I could never see why anyone could not believe in a supreme god that would help us through all our troubles. Unfortunately whenever I brought it up with my stepfather, he would argue the stupidity of it and beat me if I didn't agree with him. I never did, at least not then. I would put up with the abuse, and see myself simply as a martyr in a strange sense, doing my deity's work.
When I was 13 I had a legal right to demand to live with my father. At that age, all I saw was a kind man who showed me the truth and never hurt me. So he forced my mother to sign a one year "trial period" contract that would give my father full custody of me until I was 14. The time where I alone would decide where I wanted to live for the next four years. So when I moved, I was happy and devout. I thought finally my deity had helped me out, he finally heard all my prayers to take me from the evil people who thought to raise me. But as time went on, I couldn't adjust to my new surroundings. I became extremely rebellious since I knew my father wouldn't even touch me, but I still remained devout in my belief. Until one day, I was sitting in church and I started to look around. Everyone seemed gloomy and a good portion of the people were asleep. I hadn't ever really seen this before, and so it took me by surprise. Mostly at how blind I had been by so simple a thing.
At that time I was very devout in my belief that everyone who attended church was as happy and devout as I, if not more. But when I asked my father why they were sleeping, he simply told me that they are sinners and not "true" soldiers of Christ. I agreed with that for a time, and then I started having conversations with people in my school. Some actually pointed out some discrepancies in the bible. I couldn't believe it, but my father did raise me to look at all sides of a situation. Unfortunately for him he forgot to mention that didn't include the bible. I started doing research, talking to people, but always left out the fact that I was catholic. But one day, I finally found the answers. The bible was written by man, not any supreme deity. My father had brainwashed me since I was a baby, even going so far as to baptize me behind my mothers back. When I finally announced my findings to my father though, he started arguing that I should be concentrating on other things. He said that the bible is true, you only need faith, and it isn't my place to judge god. Yea, right. So for the next several years I fought him tooth and nail about it, and he grew ever more distant. By the time I was 18 he gave up all together. He still told me I was going to hell, but that was about it. Every time he said that, my only reply would be that I was bringing the beer.
Needless to say he didn't help things with my siblings. I'm an only child on my mothers side, but my father remarried and had four kids. One day he told me that if I ever mentioned anything other than that of the church, and the truth of god, I would never see them again. I guess this is what a true catholic looks like. Needless to say, I more or less made up with my mother and my step-dad. They taught me to be open minded and admitted their faults, and after my stepfather and I kicked the crap out of each other two years ago, things have never been better with them. My stepmother doesn't mention my beliefs, but she does accept me, and my siblings love me to death. It just gets a little weird why my eight year old sister asks me why I don't go to church or pray, or why I don't have any crosses in my apartment. So I just tell her to go ask mommy.
My father and I are still on strenuous terms. He's moving his family out to the Midwest and already moved himself out there to get away from me. Not to mention that he sees my brother as a chance to succeed where he failed with me. I guess he is worried that since one son failed him so miserably, the second might do the same, and the family will no longer be catholic on the male side. I dunno where he gets that from, I do have uncles. But now that I think about it, I think they are all atheist anyways. So that's quite a burden he's put on himself.
So here I am. 20 years old, have my own apartment because I am the one who worked for it. I believe you can pray all you want, but until you get up and go out there, nothing will happen. You are the one who has to work for what you have, and I must say, now that I am free from all the lies, I am very happy with the success I have. I do believe that there is some connection between everyone. I'm not a tree hugger, but I do believe that there is something more to all of this. It's just not a deity, or an all powerful force directing us like the world is some sort of game.
Thanks for listening, and thanks for all the great testimonies on this site. You better believe that I will continue to come here as much as I can.
I've been coming here for several years now. Often times agreeing with many of the deconverts and smiling at the realization of those who had been in it for far too long and where suddenly shown the "light" of what Christianity truly is. But in the whole time I have yet to post my own testimony.
So this is my story.....
I was born to parents who had completely separate beliefs. My father was a devout catholic, and my mother was more or less simply a believer in individuality. They divorced each other when I was about 3 years old, much too young for me to remember or to really care much about the divorce. Anyways, after they divorced, my father's lawyer screwed him over and my mother received custody of me virtually by default. By then, she had remarried to an extremely abusive man who took quite a bit of pleasure punching me in the face, stomach, and throwing me around whenever I did anything "wrong".
For the next decade I had to deal with this and was rewarded with very little memory of my childhood up to 13. So naturally the visits to my father were more or less bliss in my eyes. He never laid a hand on me, my grandmother spoiled me all the time, and all the while they brainwashed me with the lies of the church. Being an impressionable young lad, I only saw that these people weren't treating me horribly and the idea of a deity standing beside me was a great comfort to me. I would spend hours with a bible in my lap reading the stories of moses, Adam and eve, the stories in revelations, all of them until my eyes hurt. It even got to the point that I could never see why anyone could not believe in a supreme god that would help us through all our troubles. Unfortunately whenever I brought it up with my stepfather, he would argue the stupidity of it and beat me if I didn't agree with him. I never did, at least not then. I would put up with the abuse, and see myself simply as a martyr in a strange sense, doing my deity's work.
When I was 13 I had a legal right to demand to live with my father. At that age, all I saw was a kind man who showed me the truth and never hurt me. So he forced my mother to sign a one year "trial period" contract that would give my father full custody of me until I was 14. The time where I alone would decide where I wanted to live for the next four years. So when I moved, I was happy and devout. I thought finally my deity had helped me out, he finally heard all my prayers to take me from the evil people who thought to raise me. But as time went on, I couldn't adjust to my new surroundings. I became extremely rebellious since I knew my father wouldn't even touch me, but I still remained devout in my belief. Until one day, I was sitting in church and I started to look around. Everyone seemed gloomy and a good portion of the people were asleep. I hadn't ever really seen this before, and so it took me by surprise. Mostly at how blind I had been by so simple a thing.
At that time I was very devout in my belief that everyone who attended church was as happy and devout as I, if not more. But when I asked my father why they were sleeping, he simply told me that they are sinners and not "true" soldiers of Christ. I agreed with that for a time, and then I started having conversations with people in my school. Some actually pointed out some discrepancies in the bible. I couldn't believe it, but my father did raise me to look at all sides of a situation. Unfortunately for him he forgot to mention that didn't include the bible. I started doing research, talking to people, but always left out the fact that I was catholic. But one day, I finally found the answers. The bible was written by man, not any supreme deity. My father had brainwashed me since I was a baby, even going so far as to baptize me behind my mothers back. When I finally announced my findings to my father though, he started arguing that I should be concentrating on other things. He said that the bible is true, you only need faith, and it isn't my place to judge god. Yea, right. So for the next several years I fought him tooth and nail about it, and he grew ever more distant. By the time I was 18 he gave up all together. He still told me I was going to hell, but that was about it. Every time he said that, my only reply would be that I was bringing the beer.
Needless to say he didn't help things with my siblings. I'm an only child on my mothers side, but my father remarried and had four kids. One day he told me that if I ever mentioned anything other than that of the church, and the truth of god, I would never see them again. I guess this is what a true catholic looks like. Needless to say, I more or less made up with my mother and my step-dad. They taught me to be open minded and admitted their faults, and after my stepfather and I kicked the crap out of each other two years ago, things have never been better with them. My stepmother doesn't mention my beliefs, but she does accept me, and my siblings love me to death. It just gets a little weird why my eight year old sister asks me why I don't go to church or pray, or why I don't have any crosses in my apartment. So I just tell her to go ask mommy.
My father and I are still on strenuous terms. He's moving his family out to the Midwest and already moved himself out there to get away from me. Not to mention that he sees my brother as a chance to succeed where he failed with me. I guess he is worried that since one son failed him so miserably, the second might do the same, and the family will no longer be catholic on the male side. I dunno where he gets that from, I do have uncles. But now that I think about it, I think they are all atheist anyways. So that's quite a burden he's put on himself.
So here I am. 20 years old, have my own apartment because I am the one who worked for it. I believe you can pray all you want, but until you get up and go out there, nothing will happen. You are the one who has to work for what you have, and I must say, now that I am free from all the lies, I am very happy with the success I have. I do believe that there is some connection between everyone. I'm not a tree hugger, but I do believe that there is something more to all of this. It's just not a deity, or an all powerful force directing us like the world is some sort of game.
Thanks for listening, and thanks for all the great testimonies on this site. You better believe that I will continue to come here as much as I can.
Comments
I've never written a "Dear John" letter before but there is always a first. Roman Catholic's are not well versed in their faith. In fact if they want to know what they believe they need to ask their parish priest.
Faith is granted through grace and in God's time. I'll add you to the list of former RC's that I pray for and hope that you will return to Jesus Christ.
TCH
BTW: Did you ever look at other denominations of Christians or did you believe that RC's are the one true faith? Think again.
How about an original argument?
Every time someone denounces xianity, there's a fundie who advises they didn't believe the right xianity or attend the right church.
Please enlighten us...what is the TRUE xianity and RIGHT church? I bet it's whatever YOURS is.
All xianity started with Catholicism. That's why the catholics are so sure that theirs is the one true religion.
The fact is, all xian religions are bastardized to support what the leaders want their followers to believe. And since the buybull is bogus, NONE of them have any basis in truth or fact.
Christianity is Catholicism, and Catholicism is Christianity
Although not always as apparent to me as it now is, Christianity is Catholicism, and Catholicism is Christianity. To evaluate Christianity, it is necessary to evaluate Catholicism. I say this because, it is a matter of fact, that for some 1500 years of this Era there was but one "True Church" of Christ; and that Church 96 claims with conscious pride the origin and authorship of all the New Testament Books, out of its own Holy bosom, by its own canonized Saints, and it yet claims to be the only true, "Christian" Church. The New Testament Books are, therefore, distinctively Catholic documents.
Further, the Catholic Church, itself engaged in forgery 97 regarding the Books of the New Testament and in all the documents of religious dogma and propaganda and did itself perpetrate all the pious frauds and is their chief beneficiary. All the other Christian sects are sprung or severed from the original "One True Church;" all other forms of the Christian religion originated by secession from the "True Church," and their founders.
All these Protestant sects, therefore, with full knowledge of the guilty facts and partakers in the frauds, found their claim to Divinity - and priestly emoluments - upon and through those tainted titles, and thus must fully share the guilt as accomplices after the fact. The "Reformed" Sects, on breaking away from the old Monopoly of Forgery, appropriated the least clumsy and more plausible of the pious Counterfeit of Christianity, and for the centuries since have industriously and knowingly been engaged in passing the stolen counterfeit upon their own unsuspecting flocks; they are therefore equally guilty with the original Forgers of the Faith.
A definition by a high ecclesiastical authority may appropriately be cited, as it thoroughly defines the chronic clerical crime. The Catholic Encyclopedia thus defines the crime:
"Forgery (Lat. falsum) differs very slightly from fraud. It consists in the deliberate untruthfulness of an assertion, or in the deceitful presentation of an object, and is based on an intention to deceive and to injure while using the externals of honesty. Forgery is truly a falsehood and is a fraud, but it is something more. ... A category consists in making use of such forgery, and is equivalent to forgery proper. ... The Canonical legislation [dealt principally with] the production of absolutely false documents and the alteration of authentic ... for the sake of certain advantages. ...
"Canon law connects forgery and the use of forged documents, on the presumption that he who would make use of such documents must be either the author or instigator of the forgery. In canon law forgery consists not only in the fabrication or substitution of an entirely false document, but even by partial substitution, or by any alteration affecting the sense and bearing of an authentic document or any substantial point, such as names, dates, signature, seal, favor granted, by erasure, by scratching out or writing one word over another, and the like."
Under every phase and phrase of this its own clerics legal definition, the Church is guilty. The proofs of this indictment are marvelously easy in one sense, since they are to be found in amplest record of history and accredited ecclesiastic authorities, and in abounding incautious admissions made by the Recredited spokesmen of the Accused. Unfortunately these damning things of the Church are scattered through many clerical volumes and concealed in many archives, and are not well known to the pious or preoccupied layman. The findings do not lend themselves to abstracts or summaries or sound bytes. The Holy Catholic Church has been at it for 2000 years, although the earlier "Church history" is where most of the dirt started. To properly portray even this requires volumes.
Although not a true student of Catholicism, I have observed them for many years and have read a fair amount on the subject. Catholicism is repugnant to the very core. It was not until recently, however, that it became so very clear to me that Catholicism is the basis for my (former) Christianity. This is worse than finding that your mother is a whore. In that case, you could at least still rise above your circumstances. However, as a Christian you cannot rise above your circumstances - they are what they are. Protestantism is a full partaker of the fraud of Christianity. You cannot untangle this mess, because this mess is, and always has been, nothing more than a tangle - by definition. At one time I thought that the true first original church was on the right path and that Catholicism had veered from that path. This was not - and is not true - it never has been true - this is part of the mythology. There is only one path, and that path is Catholicism - Protestantism is merely varying degrees of watered down Catholicism. You cannot get from the beginning to the present without treading that path. You can weed out all the objectionable aspects of Catholicism, but what you have left is still just another religious myth. Watering down a myth doesn’t create a truth - it merely remains a watered-down myth.
The pious frauds of the theologians have been thus early systematized and raised to the dignity of a regular doctrine. The church has been hard at work lying in their zeal for God’s honor, and to their own dishonor. They have presumed at the price of their soul to assert dogmatically whatever first comes into their head. There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation.
So gross and prevalent was the clerical habit of pious lies and pretenses "to the glory of God," that St. Augustine, about 395 A.D., wrote a reproving treatise to the Clergy, De Mendacio (On Lying), which he found necessary to supplement in 420 A.D. with another book, Contra Mendacium (Against Lying). While Augustine disapproves of downright lying even to trap heretics - a practice seemingly much in vogue among the good Christians: "It is more pernicious for Catholics to lie that they may catch heretics, than for heretics to lie that they may not be found out by Catholics."
Many spurious books were forged in the earliest times of the Church, in the name of Christ and his apostles, which passed upon all the Fathers as genuine and divine through several successive ages. Those who have given any attention to the history of mankind, have come to realize that the greatest zealots in religion, or the leaders of sects and parties (whatever purity or principles they pretend to have) did not hesitate to make use of a commodious lie for the advancement of what they call the truth. And with regard to these very Fathers, there is not one of them, as an eminent writer of ecclesiastical history declares, who made any scruple in those ages of using the hyperbolical style to advance the honor of God and the salvation of men.
During that gloomy period when the only scholars in Europe were priest and monks (who conscientiously believed that no amount of falsehood was reprehensible which conduced to the edification of the people) created writings (especially their histories) which were the wildest of fables, so grotesque and at the same time so audacious, that they were the wonder of succeeding ages; and the very men who scattered these fictions broadcast over Christendom, taught at the same time that credulity was a virtue and skepticism a crime.
The Fathers laid down as a distinct proposition that pious frauds were justifiable and even laudable. Even if they had not laid this down they would nevertheless have practiced them as a necessary consequence of their doctrine of exclusive salvation. Immediately all ecclesiastical literature became tainted with a spirit of the most unblushing falsehoods. Heathenism was to be combated, and therefore prophecies of Christ by Orpheus and the Sibyls were forged and lying wonders multiplied. Heretics were to be convinced; therefore interpolations of old writings - or complete forgeries - were habitually opposed to the forged Gospels. This tendency triumphed wherever the supreme importance of dogmas was held. Generation after generation it became more universal. It continued till the very sense of truth and the very love of truth seemed blotted out from the minds of men. Thus the tangled web of fraud, forgery and imposture was woven.
It becomes obvious that the confessed debasing principle of the Church, that the maintenance of its creed is superior to the principles of morality. Ecclesiastical history consists of nothing but the wickedness of the governing clergy. The universality of the frauds and impostures of the Church (herein barely hinted at), taint and corrupt every phase of the Church and of the ecclesiastical propaganda of the Faith. As is well said by Middleton in commenting on these and like pious practices of the Holy Church: "And no man surely can doubt, but that those, who would either forge, or make use of forged books, would, in the same cause, and for the same ends, make use of forged miracles" (A Free Inquiry, Introd. Discourse, p. lxxxvii); as well as of forged Gospels, Epistles, Creeds, Saint-tales - vast extensions of pious frauds.
The shame and guilt of the "Holy Church" can be taken verbatim from the Church’s own histories and historians. These clerical works of confession and confusion are for the most part three ponderous sets of volumes; they are readily accessible for any who would care to spend the time to dig them out. It is doubtful if many will do this (myself included). It is even doubtful that anyone has even read my simple easily read and straight-forward document to this point (If you have, congratulate yourself for being more of a scholar, and more anxious to know the truth, than the majority of Christians - you are probably in the upper 1%.). But for any who care to delve into first-hand research on the subject for further instances, go to some good libraries and bookshops; such as the libraries of the Union Theological Seminary and of Columbia University, in New York City and read:
The Ante-Nicene Fathers; A Collection of the extant Writings of all the Founders of Christianity down to the Council of Nicaea, or Nice, in 325 A.D. American Reprint, eight volumes. The Christian Literature Publishing Co., Buffalo, N.Y., 1885.
The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers; First and Second Series; many volumes; same publishers.
The Ante-Nicene Fathers; A Collection of the extant Writings of all the Founders of Christianity down to the Council of Nicaea, or Nice, in 325 A.D. American Reprint, eight volumes. The Christian Literature Publishing Co., Buffalo, N.Y., 1885.
The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers; First and Second Series; many volumes; same publishers.
The Catholic Encyclopedia; fifteen volumes and index, published under the Imprimatur of Archbishop Farley; New York, Robert Appleton Co., 1907-9.
The Encyclopedia Biblica, four volumes; Adam & Charles Black, London, 1899; American Reprint, The Macmillan Co., New York, 1914.
The clerical confessions of lies and frauds in the ponderous volumes of the Catholic Encyclopedia alone suffice, and to spare, to wreck the Church and to destroy utterly the Christian religion.
In defense of Catholics (which still doesn’t let them off the hook) is that they after all did totally control Christianity for 1500 years. Then along came Luther’s Protestant Reformation which was essentially a frontal attack upon Catholicism, but not necessarily more correct, nor any inspired by God, than was Catholicism:
"Nor should we ever forget that . . . the Protestants were the aggressors, the Catholics were the defenders. The Protestants were attempting to destroy the old, established Christian Church, which had existed 1500 years, and to replace it by something new, untried and revolutionary. The Catholics were upholding a Faith, hallowed by centuries of pious associations and sublime achievements; the Protestants, on the contrary, were fighting for a creed . . . which already was beginning to disintegrate into hostile sects, each of which, if it gained the upper hand, commenced to persecute the rest! . . . All religious persecution is bad; but in this case, of the two parties guilty of it, the Catholics certainly had the more defensible motives for their conduct." [The Double Standard of Protestant Anti-Catholic "Inquisition Polemics" (John Stoddard)]
Most Protestants by now, unless they are terribly naive, have heard of the Catholic Inquisition which was murderous and cruel beyond the imagination and done under the guise of it being God’s will. So the only interpretation which could be given is that our "loving" Christian God was ultimately responsible for the torturing and killing of "the heretics" - which by definition was anyone who didn’t believe in, and fully accept the Roman Catholic Church and its teachings - it was a matter of believe it or die. But what many present day Protestants may not know 98 (even if they are not naive) is that Protestants became just about as murderous and cruel as the Catholics - for the same reason - of doing God’s will:
"It is unquestionable . . . that the champions of Protestantism - Luther, Calvin, Beza, Knox, Cranmer and Ridley - advocated the right of the civil authorities to punish the `crime' of heresy . . . Rousseau says truly:
"`The Reformation was intolerant from its cradle, and its authors were universal persecutors' . . .
Auguste Comte also writes:
"`The intolerance of Protestantism was certainly not less tyrannical than that with which Catholicism is so much reproached.' (Philosophie Positive, vol.4, p.51).
"What makes, however, Protestant persecutions specially revolting is the fact that they were absolutely inconsistent with the primary doctrine of Protestantism - the right of private judgment in matters of religious belief! Nothing can be more illogical than at one moment to assert that one may interpret the Bible to suit himself, and at the next to torture and kill him for having done so! [The Double Standard of Protestant Anti-Catholic "Inquisition Polemics" (John Stoddard)]
Volumes are written about Luther and his cruelty. The death-penalty for heresy rested on the highest Lutheran authority . . . The views of the other reformers (i.e. Calvin) on the persecution and bringing to justice of heretics were merely the outgrowth of Luther's plan; they contributed nothing fresh. Luther’s writings were essentially the early basis for the development of antisemitism in Germany, which ultimately led to the Holocaust. Here was a Christian nation led by Hitler who was greatly influenced by Martin Luther,99 the founder of Protestantism - so there is a very real dark-side to Christianity, which spawned the Dark Ages and the Inquisition, the Holocaust, etc.
What an ugly, barbarous, pagan religion is Christianity, when the whole truth of it is known. But then this is the case with most all other man-made religions (there really is no other kind), have had their very repulsive side as well, portraying ugly, vindictive gods. Christian apologists and the organized church in general have done a wonderful PR job in portraying the Christian God as a loving, caring, wonderful God. This is not too unlike the early portrayal (during World War Two, in the United States) of Joseph Stalin (Russia was our ally) as being a kindly old grandfather type with sparkling eyes, smoking a curved pipe. appearing to be every bit a friendly as Santa Clause - but later we find that he may have murdered more of his nations citizens than did Adolph Hitler. So, Joseph Stalin wasn’t as he was portrayed to be - at all. Neither is God, as truly portrayed in scripture. The question is whether this is God’s portrayal of Himself, or man’s portrayal of an imaginary god. It is entirely possible that there truly is an ultimate high God, who has never revealed Himself (He/She/It/They??) to mankind. We can only speculate about that. There is no speculation required concerning the god of the bible - He never existed.
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Footnotes:
96 For nineteen centuries the popes at the head of the Roman church have influenced the history of Christianity. It was not until 384 that the bishop of Rome called himself Pope for the first time.
97 No other people in history have been such indefatigable and for the most part clumsy forgers as the Christians. Mosheim: "It was an act of virtue to deceive and lie, when by that means the interests of religion might be promoted." Dean Milman: "It was admitted and avowed that to deceive into Christianity was so valuable a service as to hallow deceit itself." Lecky: "the deliberate and apparently perfectly unscrupulous forgery of a whole literature....The Fathers laid down as a distinct proposition [sic] that pious frauds were justifiable and even laudable....it continued till the very sense of truth and the very love of truth seemed blotted out from the minds of men." Edersheim (a Christian Jew): "It will scarcely be credited how general the falsification of signatures and documents had become." Tyndall: "When arguments of proofs were needed...a document was discovered which met the case, and on which the name of an apostle or of some authoritative contemporary of the apostles was boldly inscribed. The end being held to justify the means, there is no lack of manufactured testimony." Origen himself proved that certain passages in Josephus, which represented him as having heard favorable things about Jesus, were forged interpolations.
98 What does the average Protestant know of Protestant atrocities in the centuries succeeding the Reformation? Nothing, unless he makes a special study of the subject . . . Yet they are perfectly well known to every scholar. This is not something that is taught from either the pulpit, nor in Sunday School class, or even in most so-called Christian books. What is taught is that the Christian God is a God of love, which is a totally inadequate, and basically untrue depiction, according to scripture.
99 The Anglican Dean Inge, of St. Paul's Cathedral, London, did not hesitate to say . . 'If we wish to find a scapegoat on whose shoulders we may lay the miseries which Germany has brought on the world, I am more and more convinced that the worst evil genius of that country, is not Hitler or Bismarck or Frederick the Great, but Martin Luther.'
Please note. You will find the Author of this essay on my web page under "Catholicism is Christianity".
Thanks. That was interesting and completly supports what I said. Except maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been. ALL xian religions, INCLUDING catholicism are bullshit. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, ALL religions, xian or otherwise, are bullshit.
I don't see that I denounced 'xianity', as you put it. Why would I push my beliefs on someone else? I made a statement and then I asked a simple question. Period.
You seem to have a lot of pent up hatered. Why? Former RC?
Also I cannot enlighten anyone here, only God can through the Holy Spirit. I might as well be speaking to a brick wall than trying to convince anyone here that God exists and that Christ Jesus died for our sins.
TCH
You might as well be praying to a brick wall....::Mmmmuuah!::..
"Did you ever look at other denominations of Christians or did you believe that RC's are the one true faith? Think again."
Gee, but my take on the above is that you are denouncing roman catholics and saying that other denominations are better.
"I don't see that I denounced 'xianity', as you put it. ...I made a statement and then I asked a simple question. Period."
The implication is clear.
"You seem to have a lot of pent up hatered. Why? Former RC?"
There you go again. The implication is that roman catholics make people hateful.
Actually, I don't have a lot of pent up hatred. Hatred flew right out of my range of emotions as soon as I spit on religion. Religion sows and breeds hatred. And if you don't think so, maybe you should reread what you've written about the roman catholics. I think YOU'RE the one with the not-so-pent up hatred.
"Christ Jesus died for our sins."
Ha! Ha! Ha!
1. jesus didn't exist.
2. man created sin.
3. no one died for my sins since I don't believe in sin, I don't sin.
4. god killed his son, who is really himself, to save people from sin which god/man created and if god is so great, why kill himself/his son when he could just make sin disappear? And if someone is stupid enough to kill himself/his son in attempt to save others from something he created, I sure as hell ain't gonna worship them as some great god. How rediculous!! It's mind boggling what people are willing to believe.
1) I have more proof that Jesus existed than you have to refute it.
2) Close. God gave us free will. Man chose to disobey God, which is sin.
3) Jesus died for all sins, whether or not you believe in Him. (See below)
4) Nope. Wrong. Jesus gave His life for us that we might live.
Fire when ready.
===============
Slingshot: He died for all. Read scripture not dogma. No, I’m not lying. Do you feel guilty?
===============
Emptycan: Luke 23:34 (NIV) – Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.
Doesn’t sound like a man that died for only certain peoples sins.
I was sexual abused by a family member when I was 8. Emotionally abused by mother. Parents divorced when I was 14. I lived with my father who had always loved me but it was a nasty divorce and it took a toil on him. He remarried and long story short 'disowned' me. I moved away and haven't seen my parents in over 20 years.
After moving away and finally trying to build a life I had my own place and was working at a good job. Then a man broke into my home and raped me.
Now later in my life I have been dx'd with MS.
Do I blame God for all this? I didn't blame him for what others did to me. I understand he doesn't control people. But I got at the end of my rope with the health issues.
Do I still love God and trust Him with everything that I've gone thru and am going thru? Yes I do trust Him. I am not going to wimp out. It's called going thru the 'narrow way' and sometimes the walls scratch some of my skin off, but I'm not turning back!
Do I understand why? No I don't understand it. And I can't stand the 'christian-ese' and flipant answers they give. Like 'if you had more faith you'd be healed'. My answer to that is, "if I have enough faith to be saved then I have enough faith to be healed".
If I want to see God I don't look at people. I don't represent God well at all. I don't take 'crap' off people and I take up for myself, so I hope that people aren't relying on me to confirm God to them.
"Also I cannot enlighten anyone here, only God can through the Holy Spirit. I might as well be speaking to a brick wall than trying to convince anyone here that God exists and that Christ Jesus died for our sins"
Dan comments:
Congratulations THC, you are one of the few who have posted on this site, professing to have knowledge about Jesus dying for or sins, and holy spirits, and things that God says, who has come to the realization fairly quickly, that you are talking to folks who rejoice daily about having outgrown those mystical childish beliefs. I commend you!
Dan (Agnostic (Which means that I believe no one knows anything about God, because no one knows what God is)
You said,"Roman Catholics are Christians." I never said they weren't. I just said that you denounce them because they are not the denomination of xianity you choose to believe.
"1) I have more proof that Jesus existed than you have to refute it."
Please provide some of that proof. Besides, the burden is on YOU to prove he existed. We have no reason to try to prove a negative, but the wholey buy bull does a good job of it.
"2) Close. God gave us free will. Man chose to disobey God, which is sin."
Wrong again....man created god, who created sin so MAN created sin. It is impossible to disobey someone who does not exist. Sin does not exist.
"3) Jesus died for all sins, whether or not you believe in Him. (See below)"
Since jesus never lived, how could he die? Again, I don't sin, since sin doesn't exist either.
"4) Nope. Wrong. Jesus gave His life for us that we might live."
My mom and dad did the horizontal bop and all the genes ended up in the right place, that's why I live.
And nobody, even folks who really existed 2000 years ago, have given me anything except for maybe a few of those genes that have been passed on.
"Dano - The Latin form of the word agnostic is ignoramus. I wouldn't go around professing to be one!"
You are the ignoramus here. Agnostic comes from the Greek gnosis meaning "knowledge" and a-, meaning "without." An agnostic believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. They have no knowledge either way.
It's just lucky that we were all born after the Jesus fable myth.
"Fire" when ready, eh?
Okay, you have ZERO "God" evidence for the Donald......NONE!....you're FIRED! Don't let the door hit ya in the a$$...n' git!
LMAO!
Dano replies:
Definition of Agnostic:
Agnosticism is a concept, not a religion. It is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God.
An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence. Agnostics note that some theologians and philosophers have tried to prove, for millennia, that God exists. Others have attempted to prove that God does not exist. Agnostics feel that neither side has convincingly succeeded at their task.
Dano also states, that if professing to be an agnostic does nothing more than placing me in the company of men like these. I will be content to be called "ignoramus" till the day I pass over to the other side.
Note that: Not one of them calls himself, Anonymous.
Charles Darwin
Thomas H. Huxley
Robert G. Ingersoll
Bertrand Russell
Francois M. Voltaire
Dan (Who would rather be in the same world as these men for one day than in a room full of famous Christian Apologists for a lifetime)
No goo goo-doo doo heads are allowed in the smokin' pit, for obvious reasons. We don't want their dark age old religious corruption taking root in our underworld. HELL NO!
Lmao at TCH for thinking their sooo special for being a doo doo head. Rotten people really need to be scrubbed out.
My beliefs lie in humanity. The human mind is capable of quite a bit. All one must do is look at the cities we've built, or the books we've written, or even the culture. Yet, we continue to drive ourselves downward with fiction. So many people give in to their own pity and don't want to accept responsibility for thier actions, and thus place it all in some sort of diety.
I posted this for two reasons. One, to share my story with others. And two, to show that the human spirit can overcome any obstacle without needing to put faith in anything but one's self. And no, I am not refering to some sort of soul. I am refering to the courage, and fortitude inherent in all of us. Courage that it seems many have forgotten and don't want to have. At my last job, I mean no disrespect to any musical tastes, I had to listen to quite a bit of rap and hip hop. Not my thing, but whatever works for you. Unfortunately there were several songs played a day that was talking about placing yourself in some dieties care. Or how weak they are without a diety. That simply is only true if one believes it. Let me give you an example. As I said before, my stepfather was extremely abusive. Along with the beatings, he would constantly tell me how worthless I was, how I was a failure, and how his life would have been better if I would just go play in traffic. With him constantly telling me just how pathetic I was, I came to believe him. I believed that I was weak and pathetic. But friends helped me through that. Friends that I considered family. People telling me that I am a good person, that I am not worthless. They finally told me enough and I found the strength to go on. It wasn't some all powerful diety whispering words of comfort. It was those I held most dear. All we truly have is each other in this world, and their is no hand guiding us other than our own.
Yes, we must have faith. But don't put your faith in the wrong place. Have faith in those you love and cherish. Have faith in yourself. It is that faith that can and will see us through any troubles. For the x-tians, stop looking up at the sky and asking for salvation. If you were truly honest and without "sin" you would be out there helping out your fellow man. I spent time on the streets before, and know what it's like to be homeless, I wish I had more time to devote to helping them, but I still give what I can. Along with many I call friends. They don't need your scorn. If you see a homeless person and they ask you for money, don't go home and pray for them, it won't help. Give them a few dollars, and have faith in them that the little bit you've given will help them get on their feet. That they won't go out and buy booze with it, but to feed themselves or even their family. The shame one faces when begging is a horrible thing, and it's something you can see in their eyes. If you don't believe me, wait until december and move out of your splendid little house with heating and a warm bed, and spend a few nights in a garbage can. Perhaps then you will no longer sit by that comfy mattress and pray for your salvation, but devote your time to things that our world truly needs.
For the most part that is my rant. But I just want to throw in a few things about the bible.
Everyone on this site that knows the truth of x-ianity knows that it is fiction derived from man. If the bible is truth, and it can not be changed, then what of translation. My simple question is where in the hell do you have thy, thou, and all sorts of other archaic speech in latin? Those people wanted simply to sound important, but I still have an easier and much more enjoyable time reading Hamlet. And fundies think on this. Whatever "true" path you follow is simply the same thing that all the other denominations think. You can't take out a book and call it truth according to what you say correct? Well you can't translate the ancient text without changing a few things, so whatever truth your looking for is in ancient hebrew and it is your duty to go learn it and read it yourself. Otherwise you are your own heretic.
And lastly, this guy jesus. You know what, maybe there was a guy with that name, maybe not. Personally I think he was the worlds first hippy. Come on! This is serious, the man was going around preaching peace and love, he had long hair, and he liked to get drunk. Plus, if he did exist, you know he had to have been smoking something. They didn't have any reservations about it. So here's my thinking, if he did exist, he was a good hippy, if not, the no harm no foul.
That's my update. For the supporters, thank you again, and for the fundies. I do not believe in your diety as any more than a work of fiction, and don't bother praying for my soul. I'm happy where I am. Put that time to better use and join a frickin charity, or help out the homeless, or the orphaned. Help the people that actually need it for once.
Dear TCH, as a former RC and christian, I was very versed in my faith! I went to RC schools from K-12 grades. I was so educated that it became absurd to believe in the fairy tale! The parish priest could not answer my question, nor the priest or brothers at my schools! Anyone can make up bullshit, but the questions I poised were no match for learned clergy!
As a former RC, I feel that it is the least destructive to the individual. The other denominations tend to be more cultish. This is only my on opinion from watching people in my family and close friends be caught up in the lunacy of "non-denominational churches"! I have seen sane and rational people become the most illogical of all! The biggest example is the 6,000 year bullshit!!! Anyone who doesn't believe in evolution and believes that the world is only a couple thousand years old is a nutcase, not worthy of being called an intellect!
Anyway, John congratulations for the step towards the real light! The light of truth, reason, logic and sanity!!! My hats off to you!
Jesus said go ye into all the world and preach the gospel, how many do this? Also he supposedly said, they will do much greater things than these things that I have done, and they will take up serpents and drink poison and no harm will come to them, and they will go and heal the sick and perform miracles, yada yada yada BS BS it's all great fiction.
Thanks John, TC, Ben
Where did Jesus say that we should not pray? What verse? As I recall he instructed us not to pray "OUT LOUD". The pharasies of the day would pray on the street corners loudly to impress others with their grand vocabulary so all could see how "holy" they were. Jesus said we were to not pray like this but to pray quietly, alone. We are to pray to comune with Him, not to be seen by others.
Dave Poole
Meaning why pray? But if you cannot abstain from praying, to pray the Lords Prayer. he's saying there is no need to pray, but yet people cannot abstain from praying. and if you Must pray, pray the Lords prayer, praying anything else, goes against God.
Mark 11:17 Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations, the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
whom I love, life is empty without God- it's meaningless, void,empty.
You are hungry and thirsty and you
yearn to be satisfied.
ATHEIST believe that an atom just exploded and formed everything..
but they should have asked what created that atom. That theory is flawed.
Then if this is flawed and nonsensical then the answer is a being with wisdom that created everything.
you may ask which God?
There is only one solution- Yahweh or Jehovah.he created the heaven and earth.
He loves us.
To know about him ask him to show proof that he exist and how he loves you. There is the bible to know about him. Jesus is knocking on your door.
YAHSHUA,Ieesous,JESUS.
Bye love you all.
Bethel
whom I love, life is empty without God- it's meaningless, void,empty."
Life is "empty" when you are coersed into loving something based on conditions. You claim to "love" us ex-christians, even though we deny your Jesus, but even your OWN deity cannot rise to your level of compassion, and you are merely a mortal human. That says a lot about your pathetic "Jesus". Only an insecure wuss-bag "God" needs to coerse people into loving him. If your Jesus is so f%cking "great", why does "He" need to scare people into believing?
Anonybethel said: "You are hungry and thirsty and you
yearn to be satisfied."
Nothing is more satisfying than breaking the shackles of a coersive religious meme. It feels great.....like getting over the flu, but a gazillion times better.
"ATHEIST believe that an atom just exploded and formed everything..
but they should have asked what created that atom. That theory is flawed."
This shows that you know jack-shit about Atheism when you equate it to abiogenesis. Atheists have no belief in Gods. It's got nothing to do with the first cause. BTW, if anything is "flawed", it's the creationist hypothesis that everything "must have a cause", except of course, whatever brand of God they subscribe to. Your argument is like NASCAR....circular.
Anonybethel said: "Then if this is flawed and nonsensical then the answer is a being with wisdom that created everything."
Aaah, the ol' "God exists by default" gag:
1) I say your argument that God doesn't exist is flawed.
2) Then it MUST be flawed.
3) It's flawed, then.
4) Therefore, God exists.
Uh, try again, moron.
Anonybethel said: "you may ask which God?"
As a matter of fact, yeah.....which "God"?
Anonybethel answers with: "There is only one solution- Yahweh or Jehovah.
he created the heaven and earth.
He loves us."
Allah loves us and created the Heaven and Earth, too. How do I know?..because the Q'ran says so. The bible says so; the Q'ran says so; the bible says so; the Q'ran says so; the bible says so; the Q'ran says so...add nauseum. PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!
Anony-bethel ended with: "To know about him ask him to show proof that he exist and how he loves you. There is the bible to know about him. Jesus is knocking on your door.
YAHSHUA,Ieesous,JESUS."
Christo no existo! Jesus isn't knocking anywhere, Jackass. Your Jesus is NON-EXISTANT. Your Jeus can't "knock", because your Jesus is dead. They should've used wood screws, instead of nails.