Free to live

sent in by Holly

I first became interested in religion and God when I hit my sophomore year of high school. Those years weren't the best for me, for some people they are but for me they weren't. It was difficult fitting in, and trying to be popular to me was just so superficial. I wanted more than that to make me happy.

I sought out religion because I had so many questions about life, about God, about living. I thought that I didn't know anything and more than anything, I wanted to fit in. I went to church on and off for the remainder of my high school years, when I hit college things were different for me.

Things weren't as difficult socially as they were in high school. I grew up a lot in college. I was no longer the awkward young girl.

It was in college that I really began to ask questions about everything, critical and logical questions. These questions were difficult for many Christians to accept as well as my honesty about certain things in religion. I would try to be honest about how I felt about things that were difficult for me to accept like dying for Jesus Christ if you're face with that.

I didn't go to see The Passion of the Christ, because I didn't want to see such a gruesome and violent movie. I can handle movie action but this wasn't your usual stylized movie action, and I could tell that from the released trailers and production photos at movie websites.

I got criticized by Christians for admitting my honest feelings of struggles with faith, and I was also getting tired how petty Christians are. They think that their strength in God and in their faith, is by not seeing R rated movies, by only surrounding yourself with Christian entertainment. By not cursing and by playing the role of the happy little Christian.

If there's something popular in pop culture, the Christians try to convert it to the church by adding Jesus, Christian, and God and I think they do that because they feel that if its secular then they can't be involved with that. As if the only thing that they can be involved with is all things pertaining to Christianity. Its really sick. Its like a disease. I was tired of that.

I was tired of feeling guilty of seeing a movie if it contained a couple of curse words and a sex scene. I was tired of the guilt that Christians and Christianity try to make you feel guilty. That's why they have their own versions of publishing, movies, and music. Yet its all imitation of what is happening in secular culture. Christian stuff isn't as good as the authentic things.

Most of all it drives me crazy when educated people, deny the scientific evidence for evolution and for other scientific facts. For example, scientists have figured out how to date rocks and other things, but certain Christians with college degrees refuse to admit that these rocks are millions of years old, and say that the earth is still 6,000 years old or whatever. How can people ignore scientific proof when its standing right there in front of you? Maybe its hard to give up religious beliefs, but its worth it if the truth is right in front of you.

I had a lot of questions that I knew I wasn't going to get answers for, I know that. I just didn't think Christians would be so uncomfortable by that, what's the point of believing in God and having faith if you can't ask the hard questions? I'm not interested in being a robot. I took a class in world religions in culture, and saw similarities in religion. Then I learned of an ancient religion called Zoroastrianism which was the basic beliefs for future religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

I'm just a normal young woman in my twenties trying to make sense of this world and of my life. I do believe in a higher power in the world, I think many of us call this higher power God. Religion is all made up as I see it. All of it was written by human beings who may or may not have been in their right mind.

No one can know what went on during those times when the "holy texts" of the world were written, no one knows what went through those peoples minds when they wrote what they thought were truth and scriptures. That's why I can't believe that the Christian bible is the complete truth. I do think that there's good and evil in this world, created by humans, who else?

No one is against you, the world isn't against you, the cosmos aren't against you. Honestly. Its a tough world, I don't know why, its just the way that it is. I think that we're the only ones stopping ourselves from truly becoming better people and succeeding. We choose what we believe about our lives and ourselves, we choose what we become.

I'm tired of the fanaticism that has been taken over in this country, people are getting really paranoid with their religion. If something bad happens then its the result of the devil according to them, well I refuse to feel fear of something that's made up! It doesn't help that Christian authors write about spiritual warfare. I don't want that fear and paranoia in my life.

I have felt so free ever since I quit Christianity. I feel more confident in who I am as a human being, I'm no longer unhappy like I used to be always worrying that I was never pleasing God. I watch movies that I was afraid of watching before thinking they were immoral, they aren't! I have a lot of catching up to do since I'm such a huge film buff. When I listen to Madonna, I don't feel guilty anymore. I love her music.

More than ever I feel free to no longer define my life and myself by whether or not I watched an R rated movie and if that makes me a good person or not! I'm free of legalism, Christians fool themselves into thinking that their in a relationship with God but they're just bound by legalism. No wonder so many of them lead secret lives and are so messed up. No wonder so many teens rebel against their families.

I'm free to be me, I'm free to live. I have purpose and meaning, and that can't always be defined by religion.Its something that I have to define for myself. I love myself and my life. I love my family, my friends and I do my best to have strong relationships. I try to make the best of every day and of the life that I've been given. Its all any one of us can do.

Phoenix
Arizona
U.S.
How old were you when you became a Christian? 16
How old were you when you ceased being a Christian? 21
What churches or organizations or labels have applied to you? non-denominational
What labels, if any, would you apply to yourself now? freethinker, humanist, spiritual
Why did you become a Christian? I thought I found the truth
Why did you de-convert? I was unhappy living a Christian life, I realized Christianity isn't the truth
I don't come from a religious family. Some people in my family believe in a general God but no one's really religious and that's a relief since I have quit Christianity and the church.

73 comments:

Jason said...

Holly,

Good post! You are a good thinker. Christianity can be very confusing and challenging when one starts to ask the big questions that need to be asked. You are on the right track to your freedom. It's good to hear that you do not come from one of those fundamentalist religious families. It will be a lot easier to get away from religion as a whole without the family pressure. You are still young and you are going to come across new friends. These friends will share similar beliefs as you. You will be successful in life with your way of thinking. You will be happier and really get a chance to know who you are and that is the most important thing!!

My story is very similar to yours. I became a christian around the age of 21 and quit being a christian around the age of 25. I went to bible college and discovered like many of us exchristians that the bible is not the truth. I'm 27 now and I know that the truth is out there, but it is something that remains a mystery to the world. Maybe I'll never know the truth about our beginnings, but it is very easy to find meaning in this life.

Good Luck! - Jason
jason.pepin@gmail.com

Bentley said...

Holly you're so young to have figured out that all religions all total man-made BS. The christians are just actors trying to impress the preacher or the other members or people in their community. They put selfimposed restrictions on themselves, this way, if they deny themselves something that they want to do and do not do it, then they feel all selfrighteous and holy inside.

Many here wish that they had discovered the foolishness of religion at an early age.

Like Jason said, Life remains a mystery, and it's not meant for us to know what it is, the people that wrote the Bible had to write something down, otherwise they would have been fed to the Lions or beheaded, because they claimed to be a prophet. I think like you, that most of them were completely insane. I also think it takes someone insane, or not mentally stable, to believe in such nonsense.

They have recently discovered another fossil in Brazil, of a Dinosaur much larger that the largest one ever found. I think that the more fossils that they find, proves how less we really do know, even now. I think they will predict that the world is actually older than the estimated 3.5 billions years old. If that is the case, then *god* has just recenty been discovered, (6000 years?).

Welcome aboard Holly and Jason to sanity, and freedom from religion.
TC, Ben

jeremullet said...

Holly,
What you said about Christians "baptizing" secular culture is absolutely correct! You could not be more right about that! I wish it were not so. I especially hate the "Got truth" shirts taken from the "Got milk" adds, and those billboards that say something like "Before the game this sunday, lets meet at my house. God." I probably dislike them for different reasons than you though. (because I am a Christian) I do have to ask about the Zorastrianism though. Not sure how that religion influenced Judaism or Christianity. It was started around 600 B.C. or B.C.E. (some scholars believe 1500 - 1000) whichever you prefer, and Judaism was started around 2000 B.C. Seems to me that Zoraster would have borrowed from the Hebrews, they were the first monotheists. I am having a hard time finding a link with Christianity also. The teachings are different. Zoraster never claimed a savior, and claimed that we are judged by what we do, and that good thoughts lead to good words which lead to good deeds. This stands in contrast to Christianity. Not trying to win you back, just wanted to talk about your post.

Holly said...

Hi guys thanks for responding. Yeah I agree with your responses, life is a mystery, there is so much we don't know. I really wish that I found out the truth about religion, I feel as if I wasted my teen years on something fake but I guess we have to go through those things to get where we want to be.

jeremullet, thank you for being very respectful and for not preaching. I really respect you for that, some christians think that by being rude or preachy they can accomplish something...which isn't always the case.

Well I'm not saying that everything in Zoroastrianism inspired christianity and the other religions, but a lot of this
religions basic beliefs have inspired other religions. Check it out at...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

or just type in Zoroastrianism at wikipedia.org

Every culture has an origin story, and every faith and the people of those faiths are genuine about their beliefs. Sometimes I wonder if God ( or the higher power) is looking down at us and seeing at how foolish we all are by arguing with each other and threatening each other with religion and wars.

Maybe we should step back and appreciate each other instead of condeming each other and insisting that we're "right" I don't know just what I think...

I also know that there are stories of gods who have a life and death and rebirth cycles. Like that of the god Adonis. just type in Adonis at wikipedia.org it'll tell you about that.

So its not just Jesus Christ, there are similarities in religion though they may not always be word for word. I don't think that there's ever a point where we stop learning and searching for the truth, not to sound depressing but life is a lifelong search for the truth even when you think you have found it.

I think there's always more to learn, more to know. We never reach the point where we know everything and I like that. Life's more interesting that way. I think I'm still seeking, I know I am.

But so much remains a mystery to me and others, I know there is a higher power some call it God, gods, others call it by other names, I just don't think that its knowable.

I do think we all have a purpose, I just want to appreciate my life and live it to the fullest. To not waste it.

Anyway thank you all for your comments, I loved reading them. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences, I always enjoy reading those. jeremullet, again thank you for being respectful and dignified in your response, I really respect you for that and for not being mean.

jeremullet said...

Holly,
I would like to talk with you more. Not preach at you, but I like the questions you raise about truth. If you would like to have a discussion about those things you can write me personally at jennimiah@juno.com. Again, this is just to talk. It is difficult to get to the real issues on a message board, thats just the nature of the beast. (no offense to anyone) Anyway, drop me a line when you want. I want to thank you for not bashing Christianity like some others. I know and understand your hang ups but you didnt make us sound like a bunch of freaks. I appreciate that.

christuffer said...

You hit the nail on the head with you comments about cursing, etc.

My experience of evangelical church is that it contains the same bitching, back-stabbing, jostling for position and wanting to be congratulated you'd find in any business environment - just without the swearing.

That obviously makes it ok for Christians, then.

brigid said...

Hello Holly
scuse me but I seem to be having problems posting. This is my second attempt.
I liked what you said about the cosmos not being against us. I am an atheist and a lesbian and the only thing against me is godly people, not gods. I like girls. No gods hate me for that.

Hello to all here. My name is Brigid Brophy and I am back after a brief absence. Hi to nonconformist and to nivek.

To Webmaster: okay, my foul mouth got me into trouble,and I had it coming. Am I back in?

brigid said...

I am having a bitch of a time getting posted.

For jeremullet: you sound like a decent guy and I aint tryin to start a fight. You have obviously absorbed modern democratic ideas and have escaped the poison and contamination of real christianity.

I quit the church when I learned the truth about the inquistion. I was reading a book in a public library and when I got to the part with the drawings of the torture devices I got sick. I bolted for the restoom; didn't make it. I gagged out my quarter pounder and fries ten feet short of the door. That was the most humiliating moment of my life, but I left that building a changed girl. I was 16. I am 32 now and wild mules couldn't drag me into a church.

Keep in mind, honey, that you live in a country where you can't hurt others in the name of your god. Five hundred years ago, you would be putting hot iron between a witch's legs.

Hi again to Holly

mq59 said...

Holly,

I'm a Christian and I don't have any problems with R-rated movies. The "R" rating is an arbitrary social standard.

Now, there are some movies I won't see for content reasons ("Brokeback Mountain," "Hostel," "Wolf Creek"), but I judge movies and such on a case-by-case basis.

After all, there are wonderful movies that are R-rated and movies whose messages I disagree with (I really did not like "Meet the Fockers") that are not R-rated.

The church you rejected was obviously very legalistic and silly. We're not all like that.

Brigid,

Welcome back.

Have you read Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" or Sam Harris's "The End of Faith"?

Both of them point out there were Christians who risked their lives to OPPOSE witch-trials, and since neither of them are/were Christian (in fact, Harris sounds like he thinks the Abrahamic religions should be outlawed), they're obviously not trying to convince anyone.

Therefore, it's not really fair to say that jeremullet would have been a witch-burner 500 years ago. He might have gotten burned as a witch (well, warlock technically, since I get the impression he's male) for pointing out how ridiculous and anti-Christian the whole business was.

mq59 said...

BTW, you're quite right that a lot of the "popular people" are quite superficial.

One can also believe in a God who created the universe and simply believe that the evolutionary process (esp. a guided sort) is the way He did it.

I personally think the Days of Genesis are not literal. Wikipedia has some articles on "Day-Age Creationism" and its articles on "Young-Earth Creationism" (the 6000-years-old stuff) has some good critiques of it.

Robespierre was a Deist and he was a homicidal maniac. You apparently have not rejected Deism (the general belief in a higher power) b/c of what "some Deists" believe.

Why reject Christianity just b/c of the Young-Earth crowd and the superficial "we love Christian pop culture this and Christian pop culture that" crowd?

brigid said...

mq59

Look sweet lips, I understand what you are saying. Let me run this up again.

christianity is a vulgar, bloodthirsty religion. Nothing has changed since jew religion. christianity came up with a lot of cute theology like "incarnation", "immaculate conception", "atonement", "justification", "sanctification" and so on, but the old jew god was still there. They couldn't let go of him....they needed him. In the name of their jew god they did unspeakable things to helpless people who never harmed anyone. As christians, they could not stop--they were driven to it.

Yeah, there were those who opposed all of it, but they sure as hell were not christians. They were educated people who had studied the greek and roman classics and who had learned how to think.

Go and re-read your bible, especially the war-stories of the old testament. See where these ideas come from. Secular influence has made your religion what it is.

Holly said...

Thanks for your comments everyone!
No offense to the decent people who come here, but this is why sometimes I don't like to explain to christians why I don't agree, because then they want to "talk" about it, which means they want to convert you back. Again, I'm sorry jeremullet but I've decided that this isn't the path for me.

I'm really not interested in arguing back and debating and philosophizing because I've been there plenty of times. I've talked to my christian friends about it and every possible topic we can. I've gone online to christian forums and spoken about it and debated the issues. Let me tell you in christian forums if people don't agree, it can get really ugly really fast. Although I did have a lot of debates that made me think a lot. That raised a lot of questions.

I had a close friend or someone who I thought was a close friend say to me "Unless you follow Jesus Christ I don't think we can be friends anymore. You are just living for yourself and looking out for #1."

Right "close friend" this was someone who I trusted. I thought they were a friend, but not really. I was wrong. Who is supposed to look out for me if not myself? I mean come on! Its a tough world when you step outside your door. I really regret this friendship.

mq59, thank you for your comments as well. Thanks for anyone who commented, it helps having your support and to know that I'm not alone. Thank you!

But please don't convert me, I'm a smart human being. I understand that not all christians are fanatics and that there are decent people out there, who have stood in times during adversity in history but its the overall principle of the faith, of the way of living that I have trouble with.

I'm not sure if I have trouble with it anymore, because I realize that its just another religion among many and I was just a fool.

mq59 said...

They were "sure as hell not Christians"?

Wrong. Many of the people who opposed the witch trials were priests or bishops.

If any of the people involved were not Christians, it was the ignorant peasants who were burning the "witches," since it's likely their belief in witches was a holdover from their pre-Christian beliefs anyway (an awful lot of pagan cultures have witch-burning--go to Africa these days)

Read the books.

And here's a link. Note how St. Patrick and others said that belief in witches was actually heresy.

http://www.draeconin.com/database/witchhunt.htm

Furthermore, why the comments about "jew religion"?

mq59 said...

The Greeks and Romans believed in witches and all sorts of superstitions.

When you talk about "the Greeks and Romans" being all rational, you're talking about the educated philsophers. And even many of them had problems (note how everyone loved Aristotle and ignored Democritus, even though it turns out Democritus was right).

mq59 said...

Holly,

I can't convert you. I can discuss matters, but only you can make a decision, one way or the other.

Thanks for not biting my head off though.

Anonymous said...

Holly.
Well, I'm glad it didn't take you long to see through the lies and walk away. I was a believer for almost a quarter of a century, and for a lot of that time I was 'struggling with doubt', as the evangelical types put it. As soon as I let go and admitted, out loud, it was all fiction, it was better, I felt better, freer, the guilt went away, I am now my own person. All religions do have a similiar background cause they were all made up by the same kind of men. Go on with your life in the real world, put the lying Christian stuff behind you and. . .all the best!

Pastor Doug Hoag said...

Holly said, "I'm free to be me, I'm free to live. I have purpose and meaning, and that can't always be defined by religion.Its something that I have to define for myself. I love myself and my life. I love my family, my friends and I do my best to have strong relationships. I try to make the best of every day and of the life that I've been given. Its all any one of us can do."

Ah, Heaven! Enjoy!

Dave8 said...

Holly said, "I'm free to be me, I'm free to live. I have purpose and meaning, and that can't always be defined by religion.Its something that I have to define for myself. I love myself and my life. I love my family, my friends and I do my best to have strong relationships. I try to make the best of every day and of the life that I've been given. Its all any one of us can do."

Ah, reality, and the acceptance that one can control their destiny and make a positive change, as opposed to having a god promising heaven after death, enjoy life and smell the fresh "guilt free" air.

jeremullet said...

Holly,
Not a problem. The offer stands if you change your mind. Thank you for being respectful in declining. Just so you know, I didnt want to try and convert you, I just wanted to talk about some of the things you said about truth. Its hard to do that here.

Bentley said...

Yeah jeremullet, You would not recognize truth if it smacked you right in the face with a 2 x 4 post. You brainwahsed fundy!

Anonymous said...

Holly, your post could have been written by my own daughter. Everything about your story, from the age you were to the type of people/satiations you encountered was spot on....it makes me wonder how common this experience is for young people who seem to be primary targets for the modern day non denominational. I can only hope my daughter comes out the other side as wise as you, she is still a little bitter about the whole thing.

Arkanis said...

Hey holly!

I have been through similiar things as you too! That's why i wanted to comment.

I also asked some hardcore questions, which i know if i ask other Christians, it would get ugly too.. i really agree with you..


but then i thought about it.. isnt it true in general? Not only for Christians/non-christian things. Some people like thinking about one things and some people do not. If i tried to "convert" someone to relativity and that time is not uniform. they would not like to think about it or do the maths, i think this goes for 80% of the population.

Whereas you asked some Christians questions, they may not like think about them. Not everyone is a philosopher..


but trust me, there are people who thought about the questions you have, and i hope i am one of them... you can email me arkanisw@hotmail.com, or at least tell me your questions so it can challenge me too!

Sarge said...

A look at the real history of christianity is quite telling, especially in the "secular" areas which it dabbles. In the real early days, Ambrose, the bishop of Milan used the music that the young people liked for hymns as an attractant. They co-opted various local customs, festival days, and even local dieties (as saints, demons)into their christianity to make it acceptable to the locals.

I have never believed in any diety, not ever, but I can understand why people do. It's not for nothing that they say "I belong to..."

Best wishes to you, Holly, thrive, grow, be kind.

brigid said...

Hi mq

First of all, I am holding my breath waiting to get banned again. So far, so good.

About those who opposed the witch trials not being "christian". Honey, I do not care if they were priests or bishops. I am a former catholic, and I can tell you that people go into holy orders for many reasons; some want a life of study or solitude; some just want to get away from the rat-race. The clergy you refer to were smart enough to see through the bullshit that is christianity.

Yeah, I know about the greeks and romans. Most of them were ignorant shitkickers.

About St Patrick: I am Irish on both sides, sweetie. I can discuss Patrick until the sun rises tomorrow. I was born into a devout family and named after a saint. And that reminds me.....you said something about "read the books". Baby, I have read the books. No shit.

About jew religion. Re read my posts of yesterday. The christian religion is no more than jew religion; the same guilt; the same fear; the same superstition. Nothing changed. Where do you think witch hunts came from? It says in leviticus "you shall not allow a witch to live". The christians never let go of jew religion, not one word. No, I aint anti-semitic. I have slept with more than one jewish girl. They're tasty.

Okay, dat's all fer now. I am beginning to like you.

J. C. Samuelson said...

Holly,

Good post and welcome to freedom! I'm looking forward to seeing you around here.

MQ,

I don't think Holly was focusing her comments on any particular Christian with regard to "R" rated movies, etc. It was a valid generalization of evangelicals today.

Also, FYI a male witch is not a warlock - he's still a witch.

Yes, you are correct that belief in witches was eventually considered heresy. However, you're using a rather late source, and by the time St. Patrick was roaming around Ireland converting pagans, the Inquisition had petered out and some of the most egregious witch persecutions were over. Of course, they continued in some places - instigated by ostensibly Christian people.

The Malleus Maleficarum, which guided the persecution of witches, predates the doctrine you describe, and specifically says it's heresy NOT to believe in witches. There's an unabridged copy located at http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/

Church doctrine evolves/devolves quite frequently, depending on the prevailing voices of the age.

Also, merely because SOME Christians opposed the witch trials does not alter the fact that it was Christians who initiated the trials/persecutions in the first place. All of it was prompted in part by the biblical verse Exodus 22:18, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Now, I'm no scholar of ancient history, but I suspect that neither the Romans nor the Greeks embarked on a crusade to rid the world of heretics and witches. Am I wrong?

J. C. Samuelson said...

Ooops. Sorry. Factual error on my part. St. Patrick predates the Malleus Maleficarum. Doh!

Prior to 1400, it was a widespread popular belief that witches existed as evil, Satan-worshipping women. The church may or may not have encouraged this, though it appears that the church did officially declare it heresy to believe they existed. Funny, given the biblical verse I mentioned.

However, from about 1430s to the 1800s Christian theologians in different places around the world did instigate the witch trials and persecutions as indicated in the previous post.

brigid said...

ubergeek, hi

I am properly chagrined that I got the biblical reference wrong. It is exodus; you're right. The jerusalem version says "you shall not allow a sorceress to live". We all know how christian "logic" works. If the word of god mentions witches, then witches must exist.

And just a little something we both already know. The favorite targets of the witch hunts were not old crones with warts; they were pretty young girls. mq, if you're listening, it is not witches who have anything to apologize for, it's christians. I understand that christians would sooner forget their bloody past, or make some excuses.

About ancient civilization: My favorite guy is Plato, who would have eliminated superstition from his Republic; stories about hades and shit.

Are you also an ubermensch?

mq59 said...

You still cannot simply say that ALL the people who opposed the witch trials opposed them because they realized Christianity was not the correct religion. Maybe some of them were. And but others were certainly not.

Furthermore, the "witch" in the original Hebrew is better translated as "poisoner." Someone who uses herbs and such to hurt people.

Furthermore, lots of cultures have witch-hunting. And not all of them got their ideas about witches and what to do with them from Christianity.

St. Patrick was roaming Ireland in the 5th/6th Century. The Inquisition did not start until the 1200s, IIRC.

According to that web-site I posted yesterday (which is a pagan site), the Church was actually OPPOSED to witch-hunting and such until the 1300s--before, the Church did its damnedest (sp?) to stop such things, claiming they were recurrences of pagan superstition.

It is correct the ancient Romans never launched "Crusades." However, they were certainly an unpleasant, aggressive people who launched multitudinous wars for other reasons, and they had laws on the books for persecution of "witches" themselves.

Furthermore, there are only two Crusades launched against "heresy"--the Baltic Crusades and the Albigensian Crusades. The others were wars against the Islamic powers who in many of the cases were the ones who started it (the attacks against the Byzantines, for example).

The Baltic ones ended up as wars by the German Teutonic Knights against the Poles, who were already Christians, so one wonders about their real motivations.

The witches in question were young, pretty women? I'll have to go back and check the sources--the pagan site pointed out that it wasn't midwives who were accused of being witches, or for that matter, practicioners of "white" magic.

However, in Iceland, whose death toll exceeded that of three countries, virtually all the accused were men.

And I never said any witches had anything to apologize for. I personally don't think any real witches existed--it was a "moral panic." Probably the majority of those killed in the witch trials WERE Christians.

And I figured Holly was criticizing the "evangelical subculture" re: R-rated movies. I did not feel like she was attacking me.

muttmutt1978 said...

ok mg59 now i know yoreu full of shit. Im a pagan albiet i wash my hands of what happened in history but i know you are lying through your teeth. christians are not to be trusted. my mom is goign to expand her buisness with a christian and i know shell get screwed over. christians are evil horrible people and not worth my time.

muttmutt1978 said...

nvm the wash my hands part. I was bvurned at the stake in a past life by christians that thought i was a witch. cut the crap i know yorue lying.

brigid said...

Okay mq, I got the time and patience to answer a few points.

You are splitting hairs when you get into hebrew. I know damned good and well that the verse refers to a poisoner, but the christians you seem to love so much took it to mean sorcery, black magic, and devil worship. Your "point" is simply that christians were ignorant of hebrew. Thus, christians act not only out of fear and malice, but ignorance also. Not much has changed, huh?

You are forgetting that it aint just witches we are talking about. We are talking about persecution of heretics and jews. The only good thing about christian history is that they spent a lot of time killing each other. mq, christians are blood-letting lunatics--to borrow your expression, "read the books". Why do you not educate yourself and find out about the swine that you claim as your spiritual forbears? And what in the name of the gods could you possible mean by saying that there were "only" two crusades against heresy? I know all about the Albigensian crusade. The Cathars were harmless people who never hurt a living soul, but christians go wild when someone disagrees with them. Pope Innocent had them slaughtered like farm animals, sending in his simple-minded, unwashed troops, all functioning at the moral level of snakes. And it only happened twice, and that excuses it? Is that hissing I hear?

Do you remember what I said about jew religion? Your precious christianity was a continuation of the savagry and barbarism of the jews. Why don't you read your old testament war stories and find out how many times they were ordered to kill babies? And you call these animals "god's chosen people"?

What you are claiming as your christianity is due to centuries of secular influence. From the secular world, christians learned a modicum of decent, civilized behaviour. You ought to thank whatever god you believe in that in this country christians cannot harm anyone anymore.

And just one more little thing: I am a lesbian, and if the so-called religious right gets the power it slobbers for, my ass is dead. If there is one thing a christian hates, it's a strong woman.

Look up "Hypatia" and read about righteous christians in action.

I would like to add a few words about how all your good christians treated my Irish ancestors, but I am so angry I am about to piss my sweats.

J. C. Samuelson said...

“You still cannot simply say that ALL the people who opposed the witch trials opposed them because they realized Christianity was not the correct religion. Maybe some of them were. And but others were certainly not.”

There’s no need to split hairs here, MQ. I don’t think anyone was saying all those who opposed the witch trials were non-Christian or became ex-Christians (wouldn’t that be funny – our ancestors) as a result of the trials.

“Furthermore, the "witch" in the original Hebrew is better translated as "poisoner." Someone who uses herbs and such to hurt people.”

More hair-splitting, but since you brought it up…

The definition of the original Hebrew word “kashaph” as “poisoner” came from the Septuagint, which is an early Greek translation of ancient Hebrew scripture. It was abandoned by many Jewish groups and rejected by some Jewish religious scholars because of differences between it and the Masoretic text, which they prefer. There is still some debate over which text is a more accurate reflection of the original scriptures.

However, according to Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon, the word means to practice witchcraft or sorcery (Strong’s Number H3784, if you care to look it up). The first question that occurs to me is, if “witch” is a mistranslation why haven’t they fixed it? Either Strong’s has it right, or they’re pandering to Christians who prefer this definition.

Then again, if it was a mistranslation doesn’t that cast the perpetrators in an even worse light? Further, does this mean you are conceding that some church doctrines are the result of errors in the Bible?

“Furthermore, lots of cultures have witch-hunting. And not all of them got their ideas about witches and what to do with them from Christianity.”

True. However, none of them have ever pursued it with greater enthusiasm and efficiency than their Christian counterparts.

“St. Patrick was roaming Ireland in the 5th/6th Century. The Inquisition did not start until the 1200s, IIRC.

According to that web-site I posted yesterday (which is a pagan site), the Church was actually OPPOSED to witch-hunting and such until the 1300s--before, the Church did its damnedest (sp?) to stop such things, claiming they were recurrences of pagan superstition.”

I’ve already stood corrected on this in the post immediately following the one you’re addressing here, but thanks for rubbing it in. ;) Yet, this still doesn’t change the fact that the Christian church was the motivation behind what is commonly called “the Burning Times.”

“It is correct the ancient Romans never launched "Crusades." However, they were certainly an unpleasant, aggressive people who launched multitudinous wars for other reasons, and they had laws on the books for persecution of "witches" themselves.”

*snip the comments regarding specific crusades*

I was using “crusade” in the figurative, not literal, sense. Although you’re correct that the Romans had laws for the punishment of those practicing “evil” witchcraft, that does not equate to active persecution. Oddly enough, the Romans seem to have preferred persecuting Christians rather than witches. Apparently, being a Christian was a greater crime than witchcraft. Go figure.

Brigid,

Hi there!

Thanks for the kind words. Aye, lass. I’m indeed a superman. ;)

muttmutt1978 said...

I know that the website that mq59 got his info from was total christian bullshit. christians will stop at nothign until they change history, and kill off those that oppose them. i suggesst we fight back unless you want your ass handed to you in a body bag.

mq59 said...

MuttMutt,

The site I got my info from was a neo-pagan site. Nice try.

You were burned at the stake in a past life. Riiight.

I'm sorry about your mother and the jerk she went into business with.

Brigid,

Out of 13-odd crusades, only two. And those were the later crusades, back when anyone could claim anything was a crusade.

mq59 said...

Here's a link about Hypatia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

The identity and ideology of her killers is debatable.

However, for the sake of the argument, let's assume you're right and it was some nut-case conservative Christian rabble-rouser who had issues with "strong women."

That does not mean that all Christians have issues with strong women, or that Christianity itself is misogynist. That means that there were some real jerks in Alexandria centuries ago, real jerks who are going to answer for their crimes before God Himself.

mq59 said...

Ubergeek,

I made the post before I saw that you'd already admitted you'd made a mistake.

Sorry 'bout that.

brigid said...

Okay, this morning I found I have been banned again. I am at a computer miles from where I usually hang out. This is just a good-bye, and I do not know how long it will last before being scrubbed. I have noticed that my posts from yesterday still exist.

Webmaster, what is going on is just plain cruel. First I am out, then in, then out. What in the name of the gods did I do to you? I am prepared to make a formal apology if that will help. No shit.

One more thing: I am not speaking to mq, but it is amusing that his defense of his primitive religion was so weak. I just gave him too much to think about. There are centuries of sadism and bloodletting I was waiting for him to address, and all he could manage was "only two crusades". Read it; it's funny. And the identity and idealogy of Hypatia's murderers are not in question. They were christian monks. I don't blane mq for being ashamed and trying to cover it up.

Anyway, bye to all, specially ubergeek.

mq59 said...

Did you not notice the latter part of my argument?

I said for the sake of the argument, let's assume Cyril was the murderer. That still doesn't mean that Christianity is in and of itself anti-female; it just means that Cyril was "a wolf in sheep's clothing."

Furthermore, here's a link:

http://www.fordham.edu/HALSALL/source/hypatia.html

Even in the supposedly unenlightened medieval times, when according to you Christianity was the most bloody and cruel of them all, the murder of Hypatia was considered immoral.

mq59 said...

I said that only two of the Crusades were directed against "heretics" and those were later on, when it was very easy to get a war called a "crusade."

You want a holy war endorsed by most of Christendom, you've got the First Crusade (and maybe the 2nd or 3rd). No more.

Two wars of this nature are bad enough; however, you made the situation sound far worse than it actually was.

briannathearchangel said...

mq59 you love your christinaity so much youd lie for it. I was burned at the stake in a past life. BY CHRISTIANS MIND YOU/.

mq59 said...

If Christianity requires lies to defend it, then there's a good chance it's not true.

I may be wrong, but I am making every statement in good faith.

Do you have any evidence you even had a past life, let alone were burned at the stake by Christians in this past life?

And MuttMutt said the same thing yesterday. Are you MuttMutt posting under a different name?

Furthermore, why was Brigid banned? She did curse a bit, but that's about it.

Free Brigid! :)

muttmutt1978 said...

I know that the source of the website is a christian who is trying to rewrite history. I can tell. also many many many historians say its the christians at fault and just a few whackos namely defensive christians cant handle the truth so they lie.

mq59 said...

http://draeconin.com/database/pagan.htm

It's not a Christian site, it's a pagan site.

follower said...

Hey all,

I am truly sorry to those who have been harmed or shunned by Christians in the past.

The Church and so-called Christians have committed many atrocities in the past which cannot be denied. If only people could uphold the commandment Jesus gave.

John 13:34 “A new command I give to you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have loved one another.”

People fail. God never fails.

Hang in there mq!

mq59 said...

Thanks, Follower.

Passerby said...

To brainwashed Follower,

Your piece of shit God also said, "14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."


And then this brainwashed Follower said: "People fail. God never fails."

Um, your God brutally drowned everyone, including innocent babies, because your God failed...he "grieved" in his heart that he had made man. Can't you see your God was created by man?

Get your head out of your ass!

Cheers

Bentley said...

The fundies think that they are so clever, that they could never be deceived by a lie.

mq59 said...

I think in the context of that passage, "hate" means "love less."

follower said...

Thank you for reminding me of Luke 14:26. Both John 13:35 and this passage remain. It affirms that true love for others emanate from a relationship with the God of love who enables us to love others. The two passages referred to are not in contradiction with one another. In fact, if you surrender your life to God, He will enable you to sacrifice yourself for others. Luke 14:26 is a clarion call to surrender all to God and to carry his cross and follow Him. (Verse 27).

The scripture referrers to those who place other things above their love for God. Unfortunately the church have become a cultural establishment for many where their incentive is to feel accepted and not to have a personal relationship with Christ.

I am reminded of the first Christians who gather in catacombs in fear of persecution and who were willing to sacrifice everything for their faith and love for God and fellow men.

That is why Christ taught his followers in Matthew 22:37 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment of the Law? Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

A few examples of those who sacrificed all for the message of love is: Apostle Paul who was beheaded; Apostle Peter who was crucified upside down and Stephen the disciple who was stoned to death. Throughout history, many believers paid the highest price for the love of God and fellow men. Mother Theresa is a prime example of a follower who sacrificed her live for the love of others.

Anonymous said...

Follower....Love covers all the commandments doesn't it. God is Love and we humans don't generate Love from ourselves but from God.
Love is what put Jesus on the cross, but hate anger and rage try to keep him there. But Praise Ye The Lord of Lords Lover of My Soul He Arose. He rebuilt the Temple in Three days HIM!

John said...

Read the Bible not books about the Bible. Read it not with an open mind but with an open heart. Don't let people dictate to you what the Bible really means. Th Holy Spirit will show you. Funny thing is man wants to believe that water was on Mara where there is no water but want believe in a global flood here on Earth wher ther is guess what WATER, But Jesus is the Living Water! BIBLE==Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

The Anti-Atheist said...

Bad news free one.

If your atheistic views are correct, then you ARE your DNA and you "dance to its tune".

You are more a slave now than ever.

.:webmaster:. said...

I'd say that horrific torture, in unending torment, in a pit of fire destined to be inhabited by most of humanity, is definitely "less love."

Oh yes, that's "less love" alright.

"Let the dead bury their own dead."

Yup, less love for sure.

"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed."

Less love there.

"I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

Not much love there.

You hate all workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)God is angry with the wicked every day. (Psalm 7:11)

"The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul HATETH" ( Ps. 11:5 ).

When a Christian hates God's enemies we show our love for God (Ps 139:19-22). When we pray to God to destroy the wicked, we are showing our hate for what comes from evil doings and that they (sinners and doers of evil) be stopped (Rev 6:9-11).

Just a little less love, that's all.

mq59 said...

In the Revelation passage, the martyrs are praying for the destruction of "the destroyers of the Earth." Not run-of-the-mill non-believers such as yourself, but for VERY BAD PEOPLE.

Note in the Pslam, it's talking about people who love violence. Also VERY BAD PEOPLE.

Y'all, I would imagine, are not violent people.

What is the chapter/verse of the "if you don't love Jesus, be accursed"?

.:webmaster:. said...

Don't you know your Bible John?

1Cor 16:22—"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed." NKJV

.:webmaster:. said...

So it's okay to HATE "very bad people." I wonder where exactly the line is. Sure glad I'm not one of those "very bad people"—phew...

mq59 said...

Do you hate Hitler, Osama bin Laden, or (more in line with the "lovers of violence" in the Biblical times), the various Somali warlords?

If you were put in a position to judge those people, what would you do?

mq59 said...

Webmaster,

Point conceded re: the verse in Corinthians.

However, weren't we discussing what Jesus meant in the Gospel account?

Paul's comments are not about the same matter.

.:webmaster:. said...

We were talking about hate—Biblical hatred—what Jesus might have meant whne he said to hate your family.

In context with the rest of the Bible's definition of hate, that Jesus meant just to "love less" appears to be a weak explanation. That was my point.

.:webmaster:. said...

What would I do to heinous criminals if put in the position to pass judgement? Maybe you find this hard to believe MQ, but I would find it quite difficult to order the eternal torture of even the most henious criminal. In fact, I don't think I'd order even temporal torture. Imprisonment or death? Quite possibly, however, everlasting, horrific, painful agony? No.

freedy said...

Holly,you are very lucky indeed to escape a lifetime of religious bondage.The "passion of christ" helped me deconvert two years ago.I could no longer believe in a god who would go thru such drama and cruely to ranson man back to him.How can modern man still believe in such nonsence?

mq59 said...

Webmaster,

I never said I thought you'd want to torture them forever. My point was mostly that I figured you would dislike them intensely.

.:webmaster:. said...

But that's what your god does to those he intensely dislikes, MQ. He consigns them to everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire. "Depart from me ye cursed..." and all that.

If I were to imitate god, then I'd keep those criminals alive just to torture them.

ApostateLiberalEvilDoer said...

I'd love to have you in my sociology class, Holly! You would make people do something they usually don't do: think!

You got it exactly right: in America, Christianity is a lifestyle, and I think many people OD on Christian popular culture out of fear. They thin they can keep the postmoder world out, and "behold, it stands at the PC and doeth a DOS attack" :)

Welcome, Holly! Write more!

ApostateLiberalEvilDoer

brigid said...

It looks like I am in again. This is going to drive me nuts.

Webmaster, would you mind telling me just what,specifically, you have against me? Okay, so I'm a whore with a mouth like 40 miles of dirt road. Is that it? I can talk like Eleanor Roosevelt if you like. Let me see what happens--give me a chance.

mq, you stuck up for me. You don't have the brains of a fruit fly, but you practice what you preach. Most of the christians I have met here hate my insides. See that guy from 4/22? anti-atheist? He used to call himself "emmanuel goldstein II"; the name of the real or propagandised head of the resistance in "1984". We called him goldie. His basic problem was that atheists have killed more people than christians, so christians are better than atheists.

Before I forget, you are damnably difficult to understand. About the Albigensian crusade: You appear to be dealing in terminology. I do not care if you call it a "war" or a "crusade". Call it a turkey shoot if you please,but the fact remains that christians killed thousands of innocent people; people who did not have the proper doctrine.

Please do not repeat "they were not true christians" or "they did not have the right christianity". This sort of thing has been going on for century after century, in the name of your jesus, and to say that "they were not real christians" starts to wear pretty thin. I do not think there is a god, and there are no "true" christians. There are merely some christians who are less warped by the zeal and madness of jew superstition. You, in all likelihood.

Listen sweetie. Do what I did. Find some stuff on the inquisition. Do you know what "breaking on the wheel" means? Do you know what "strappado" means? Do you know how people were treated in the name of your jesus? Would you like to hear how protestants hunted down my ancestors and slaughtered them like dogs? Would you like to hear what happened to the women who fell into their hands? Listen, sweet lips, they were christains, alright. christians. And when I think of their kind gaining power in this country, I shiver in terror.

Okay, I has made me point. See you. What does mq stand for anyway?

Hi goldie.

mq59 said...

"mq, you stuck up for me. You don't have the brains of a fruit fly, but you practice what you preach. Most of the christians I have met here hate my insides."

Thanks. I disagree with you on the matter of the fruit fly, but I'll take compliments where I can get them.

I am well aware of the Inquisition and the Albingension Crusade. I know what "breaking on the wheel" is, although I'm not terribly sure about the strappado (that's flogging on the soles of one's feet, right?).

Thing is, were all Christians in that time and place supportive of those atrocities? Or just a few thuggy, power-corrupted people?

After all, there are those people who opposed the witch trials. I don't think there's any evidence to conclude these people were closet atheists--more than likely, they were people who'd read the Bible for themselves (the Renaissance humanists were big into that, along with the Protestants) and realized this behavior was ungodly.

Now, on the matter of the Albigensian Crusade...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

It seems to me that the Albigensian Crusade had just as much to do with politics as religion.

However, that does not excuse the papacy--earlier I thought the French kings were using the religious issue as a cover for expanding royal control, but it seems to me that the popes had been pushing for this since the very beginning.

The French monarchy and nobles only got involved when they figured out they could benefit politically.

I believe that the church leadership of this time period is going to answer to God Himself for this atrocious behavior.

In Matthew 7, Jesus talked about how there would be "many" who would say "Lord, Lord," but go to Hell regardless. I bet there's going to be some pope saying, "but I didn't I destroy heretics in your name?" and Jesus will not buy it.

My basic point was that during the Crusade period, the earliest crusades were the ones whose motives were primarily religious.

Many of the later crusades were essentially political fights with religion as the "fig leaf." The Baltic Crusades were definitely territorial spats between the Teutonic Knights and the Poles; the Albigensian Crusade is more religiously-based than I thought, but considering that the Crusaders only showed up when promised land, it seems that there were lots of secular motives.

mq refers to my first two initials. 59 is a random number I came up with.

mq59 said...

Where's my big lengthy post on the Albigensian Crusade? It shows up when I'm replying, but not when when one is actually looking at the main page.

brigid said...

I am having an awful time getting my posts to "stick". Yeah, I know that christianity has been ruled by corrupt thugs. And just how did they become that way? Who put the notions into people's heads that sinners and heathens need to suffer and die? HMMM? Read your bible and find out how people become corrupt and deranged. We need to accept people for who they are, not punish them because they are different. The bible makes people suspicious, hateful, and intolerant. I have read the bible, mq. It twists people's minds.

And goldie, I would rather dance to the tune of my DNA than to the dirge of your jew god.

J. C. Samuelson said...

Goodbye/welcome back, Brigid! LOL Hope you get to stick around this time.

So, the thread is still alive. Cool. Too bad I don't have anything useful to say just now.

Cheers!

mq59 said...

Hurting people that are "different" has been part of humanity from the early days.

The Greeks viewed anyone who did not speak Greek as barbarians and made war upon them, enslaved them, etc. Alexander was a bit less parochial and racist than most, but he had his own issues (castrating young men to make them eunuchs for his sexual pleasures).

The Greeks also horribly treated their women, with the exception of the Spartans (who had their own issues, namely their mistreatment of the helots).

The Romans believed that anyone who did not speak Greek OR Latin was a "barbarian" and did much the same thing. Roman women had more rights than Greek women, but the male head of household could kill his wife, children, and slaves if he wished.

The Chinese drove the other ethnic groups that shared their region into the hills of SE Asia (the "hill tribes" like the Hmong, Montagnards, etc were driven out of south China), while the Japanese treated the Ainu (a pseudo-Caucasian people of northern Japan) worse than the US treated Native Americans.

It is to Christianity's credit that human differences were minimized--in Galatians, it says "in Christ there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, free or slave--Christ is all and is in all" or something to that effect.

.:webmaster:. said...

Bla bla bla MQ!

You left out one difference. It says that in Christ all these people are one, but ONLY in Christ. Anyone who chooses to be different than the prevailing version of Christianity is viewed as destined to burn in horrific, eternal, retributive torture. For about 1300 years Christianity held sway over civil government throughout Europe and mercilessly persecuted anyone who resisted Christ: whether Jew, Greek, free, slave, male or female. As a movement, Christianity has NEVER been humanely accepting of anyone outside Christianity. Christianity promises everlasting torture for EVERYONE that refuses. In Christianity no one ever dies. All people live forever, but most of them live forever in hell.

MQ, I found a friend for you: click here. Don't condemn this person, she doesn't sound any different than you. She is completely convinced and absolutely sure that she has the real truth, that she is doing good by warning people, that her actions are commended by GOD.

Think about it, really think about it—if you can.

Anonymous said...

hello holly,

just like to say a lot of people seem to have a problem with faith
they are told to belive without
any reason to question the faith
if you want faith with scientific
proof then you might want check the quran out it has got a lot of
proof on science and a lot of things scientist did not know which was in the quran 1400 years ago if you need any more information email me (tahirbashir99@hotmail.com
you might want to know that the quran talks about jesus moses adam
life after death and this life
salvation belief in 1 god
do not be scared check it out
i think you will be happy to find out about the truth
also check out (yusuf estes)google.
i hope you find what you are looking for
like they say if you want the truth the truth will come to you.

Anonymous said...

hello holly,

just like to say a lot of people seem to have a problem with faith
they are told to belive without
any reason to question the faith
if you want faith with scientific
proof then you might want check the quran out it has got a lot of
proof on science and a lot of things scientist did not know which was in the quran 1400 years ago if you need any more information email me (tahirbashir99@hotmail.com
you might want to know that the quran talks about jesus moses adam
life after death and this life
salvation belief in 1 god
do not be scared check it out
i think you will be happy to find out about the truth
also check out (yusuf estes)google.
i hope you find what you are looking for
like they say if you want the truth the truth will come to you.

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