I came to realize that Hell doesn't exist

Sent in by Justin

It’s been a long, strange and incredible journey for me over the past year or so on the spiritual path. I guess it started when I began working on the fellowshipping.org website. I wanted to make it easier for Christians to connect with each other, but I also wanted to get the message of the gospel out to as many people as I could. I still believed in Hell at the time, and I couldn’t bear the thought of anyone going there (not just friends and family, but anyone).

Around that time, I started a blog and in one of my blog entries I challenged myself to pray for 2 hours a day for a week. I accepted the challenge.

During all of that praying, the topic of Hell kept coming up and one morning I woke up with a feeling that I should do some research on the topic. I googled Hell and a bunch of links jumped out at me claiming that Hell was not real or didn’t exist. I thought that was too good to be true, until I actually started reading some of the websites.

I ended up reading almost non-stop for three weeks. I barely left the house and I didn’t do any work on my websites. I just read everything I could find about this teaching called Christian Universalism.

Finally after three weeks I decided I was convinced. I came to believe that there was no Hell. This wasn’t a decision I made lightly. I didn’t believe it just because I wanted it to be true. I did the research and I concluded that there was no way that Hell could exist. (The main site that I researched was tentmaker.org for those that are interested.)

I felt like a giant weight had been lifted off my entire being. For most of my life I had been afraid of Hell. I knew that I had been “saved”, but whenever I read certain passages in the Bible, I started to doubt my “salvation” and wondered if I might end up in Hell. I never really felt secure.

But even in those moments when I trusted that I really was safe from eternal damnation, I “knew” that a lot of my friends and family were going to Hell along with a huge percentage of the rest of the population (unless they got “saved”).

I used to walk around depressed, thinking about every person or group I saw, and that no matter how much fun they were having, or how kind and loving they were, there was a good chance they were destined to spend eternity in Hell, because they weren’t “saved”.

That is what fundamentalist Christianity did to me.

So once I came to realize that Hell doesn’t exist, a lot of things happened. The most immediate change was how I felt when I saw other people. I didn’t have that sad feeling gnawing away at me any more.

For the first time in my life I felt like everything was alright with the world. I didn’t have all the answers yet (and still don’t), but I felt such an incredible feeling of love toward everyone. And I finally came to realize that a God who is truly loving and forgiving would never send his creations to Hell to suffer for eternity.

So now I still believe in God, but I no longer call myself a Christian. I believe there is a lot of truth in the Bible, but also lots of half-truths, lies, misinterpretations and blatant mistranslations.

I struggled for years trying to figure out how God could be the embodiment of love and the model for forgiveness, yet also punish people by sending them to Hell for eternity for simply failing to accept Christ as their savior.

That never felt right to me. But, I accepted that belief for so long, because I didn’t see another alternative. For some reason I thought that the only two options were Christianity and atheism. It had never dawned on me that God could still be real but that the Christian story could be false, or at least misleading or misinterpreted.

Once I was finally able to consider that as an option, a lot of things changed for me. I started to realize how many great spiritual books and teachers are out there. I realized how much I was limiting myself by viewing the Bible as the only spiritual text.

As crazy as it might sound to some, I believe that Christianity was severely hampering my spiritual growth.

Any time I would read something that conflicted with my belief system, I would be quick to dismiss it. Each time I did that, I would become more entrenched in my close-minded belief system. Why did I do that? Why was I so quick to defend my “faith” and dismiss anything that conflicted with my beliefs?

Because I was scared. Scared that I might be wrong. Scared that maybe God didn’t exist and that we were all alone on this earth.

And so I had to keep my belief system intact, because it was too depressing to think that we might be alone here with no divine protector, and again, because I wasn’t aware of any other alternative.

Looking back on how I first came to be a Christian, it was the same emotion that came into play. Fear. Fear of going to Hell and burning in eternal flames.

I can still vividly remember going to an all-night youth group event when I was about 11 years old. After a hockey game, a speaker came out on the ice and talked about Heaven and Hell. He said that I could make a decision that night to choose Heaven and therefore be safe from Hell.

I prayed a prayer to accept Jesus into my heart that night. Then, the next year at the same event, I prayed it again just to be safe.

Looking back at it all now, it is easy for me to realize that it wasn’t the speaker’s logic or scientific facts that convinced me as an impressionable 11-year-old. It was a simple fear-based transaction. I was afraid of Hell, and so I did what I thought I had to do to avoid it.

Then I started to read the Bible. I read things like “Love your neighbor” and “Thou shalt not steal/lie/murder” and I knew in my heart that these were spiritual truths. Then I read that the Bible was the word of God and it was inerrant. I figured that since there were so many spiritual truths, it must really be God’s inspired word.

This was, of course, before I considered all the questions that brought up such as:

Where did the Bible come from?
Who wrote the books?
Who translated them?
Who decided which books were the inspired word of God?
And how did we know that the Bible was never changed, mistranslated or misinterpreted?

Each of these questions weighed on me as I delved more deeply into Christianity. I really wanted to believe that Christianity was true, because I wanted to know for sure that I was eternally safe, that I was going to Heaven when I died. But the more I thought about it, the more “plot holes” I discovered in the Christian story that I could not resolve.

There were so many fundamental questions that I could never answer, such as:

Why would God create us knowing that so many of us would never be “saved”?
What would happen to people that never heard the gospel in their lifetime? What about kids who died too young to make a decision to “get saved”?
Wouldn’t it be better not to have kids at all than to have a child if there was a chance that he or she would have to spend eternity in Hell?

Nothing in my life has terrorized me more than the concept of Hell.

So when I was finally able to prove to myself that Hell wasn’t real, it made a huge difference in my life. I no longer had to worry about whether I was “really saved”. I also started to trust more in God, knowing that there was no chance he was going to send me or anyone else to Hell.

Since that time, I have been reading and studying lots of spiritual teachings, and continuously reshaping my beliefs.

I have come to see Christianity as one step in my spiritual evolution. I’ve tried to keep all of the spiritual concepts that I believe are true and beneficial, and I’ve discarded the limiting beliefs and concepts that never felt right in the first place.

I believe that God is love and that it is not quite accurate to call ourselves children of God, but more accurate to call ourselves God incarnate.

The more we act in love toward one another, the more we are acting as our true selves, uniting in love, and teaching each other to remember who we really are.

But if we continue to spread messages of fear and eternal damnation, we only separate ourselves — from each other and also from our true Divine selves.

We are God. We are Love. Let’s unite in love and live up to our true Divine nature!

84 comments:

Anonymous said...

Recognizing that the belief in hell is stupid, wrong, and dangerous is huge leap towards the truth and to authentic connection with others. Have you read any spiritual (but non-Christian) texts like A Course in Miracles?

Jesus Sucks Ass said...

I went through a similar situation that you did. The concept of Hell didn't fit the mold of a loving God. I also went to "www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com which is tentmaker.org's sister site. At first I thought it was a Jehovah's witness site or something. But Gary Amirault was a universalist believer. I had never really heard of this type of message that the entire world will be saved.

The problem I had was it still didn't make sense to me. Universalism, while it sounded nice, merely combined the best of calvinism and arminian teaching to make God this benevolent deity, yet for some reason bad things still happen all the time to innocent people. Even if you get rid of the concept of hell, the reality of this cold world is that it is cruel and millions suffer daily. A universalist idea of God contradicts this situation we are in. Eventually, I accepted the hard fact that most likely not only did the biblegod NOT exist in any form, but most likely all gods were made up.

I'm not saying this is the path for every person struggling with a conscience. I'm just saying I put away my faith and replaced it with critical thinking. I think I had to for the sake of honesty, if nothing else. I do understand your dilemma.

So, welcome to the realization that hell is imaginary! Believe me, you will be considered an enemy among the faithful, so beware of what they will say and perhaps even do. These people need hell to exist to justify their bigotry.

You have a friend here at least, please feel free to email me at smile_there_is_no_hell@yahoo.com


Sincerely,
Matt

Anonymous said...

I liked your story. I don't know if there is a god, but I worship the next best thing--- me. I remeber when I lost my faith I met a friend at school and he started to teach me about energy dynamics. After reading books like the celestine prophecy it really opened my eyes to a whole new world.

I still have my own spiritual rituals because I do think we need some sort of conection with what ever created us. We all are just a bunch of grown up kids that need to pretend every once in a while.

If you need some one to talk to just email me at melvin.woodgeard@miamijacobs.edu

billybee said...

Justin states; "...Because I was scared. Scared that I might be wrong. Scared that maybe God didn’t exist and that we were all alone on this earth."

Here's my question: Let's suppose that there is no god and that death is in fact the end; why is that "bad"?

The mental gymnastics needed to avoid acceptance of reality is what made the mess we are now experiencing as a species...

Justin, I hope your letter is sincere. If it is, then you are open minded enough to listen to the challenges that are sure to follow your post.

As far as your "we are god" claim goes....well, good luck with that one. In my opinion, you've gone from the pan into the fire.

just my opinion, of course.

allmeta4 said...

Justin,

If is your honest story, you've taken a great and very scary first step.

Now start slowly and gently and carefully step down the rest of the path. It's a difficult path and only for the brave. You must demand evidence. Faith doesn't cut it.

It's taken me over 50 years to realize, that all that I've learned on my own and even in seminary - leads to one uncomfortable conclusion.

God doesn't exist. How I wanted to be able to prove the opposite, but the "evidence" just isn't there. Believing by "faith" is just delusional, plain & simple.

If there is a "god", it's a "watchmaker" kind of god (a diety). He/she/it created the world, wound it up, started it running and walked away.

That is the kind of god that the evidence might support. If god is supposed to be all loving, omniscient, watching over the sparrow, omnipotent, etc., then god has failed that test forever.

Good luck, Bob

allmeta4 said...

Justin, now take on the rest of the difficult task to learn the rest.

It's taken me over 50 years to figure it out (for me). I too have had trouble with Xianity for decades. Being raised in a Xian culture, it was the natural "way".

But, with a little bit of seminary and a lot of graduate level self-study, I have found that I can not support the existence of a caring god.

If there is a god, he/she/it is like the watchmaker god (a diety). It creates the entire universe, winds it up, starts it running and walks away. There is no evidence to the contrary.

There is nothing to support the "all knowing, omnipotent, benevolent, forgiving, protective god". Evidence proves that this god has failed the test terribly.

My thoughts are free and you don't have to believe them, but you owe it to yourself to at least investigate.

Good luck, Bob

PS: search for the video on this site about "His eye is on the sparrow ..."

allmeta4 said...

Justin, see previous.

make that "deity" not "diety".

Sorry, got too fast for my 2 finger typing.

Bob

allmeta4 said...

and to everyone, sorry for the double post.

I thought that the first one had disappeared into the "ether"

Bob

Anonymous said...

Justin,
The belief in hell is often one of the first things leading out of christianity for many of us here. It never sat well with our moral consciences but we were forced to swallow it while all the while gagging on it. We tried to live in an Orwellian doublespeak world where "perfect love" somehow means "eternal torture" for crimes of mere thought mistakes; for a crime of not being born in the right place and being indocrinated "the right way"; for not properly kissing a perfect, all-good being's ass to keep him happy, or of dying too young, as you pointed out. Because such a doctrine is truly reprehensible for anyone with a capacity for normal human empathy, it became one of the first things we allowed our minds to open long enough to scrutinize. And the minute we subjected it to the slightest factual inquiry, it just crumbled, an obvious man-made mythology. Congratulations for finding your way out of it.

Naturally, this discovery inevitably leads to the question, WHAT ELSE which I have believed as the 'divinely revealed truth,' is man-made mythology? And the inquiry continues, and the whole of Christianity fails for all the same reasons. We read the bible and see all those ugly passages we tried to explain away; we know how christianity came together over the years. We are educated now. Looking back many of us wonder how we embraced ideas so blatantly contradictory and insane. Blood sacrifice to appease an all-loving God who knew all outcomes before he deliberately concocted it all and made it happen? Yet we are obligated to curry his 'conditional' forgiveness - not for terrible crimes, but just for being born and being by definition, unacceptable. What has this to do with anything remotely rational? Hardly better than the volcano worshipping religions which sacrificed virgins to appease angry gods and gain rain and fertility and good crops and happy hunting. What were we ever thinking?

I too spent some time in the comfortable space where I discarded Christianity and embraced my own "model" of God, the one I truly wanted to exist and thought made total sense. A creator-being who embodies perfect love and perfect goodness and embraces all people and whose presence I would 'join' when I died, to live on in bliss.

Eventually I realized I was creating my own personal mythology, one not supported by evidence, but just a model of my wishful thinking of what 'perfection' would be. I put myself through certain thought experiments, like "what if I raised myself, all alone on a desert island, would I still have come up with any such ideas about a god?" Perfect goodness and perfect love are just idealized human qualities that we wish existed in pure form and which we imagine would make the world a better place if they existed. If there were no other humans against which to measure various hurtful or helpful behaviors, no such ideal would be constructed. An all-good all-loving superior being would NOT be intuitive by any observation around you on a desert island.

There was also the problem of scientific evidence that consciousness cannot exist outside the brain; that behaviors and personality both good and bad are chemical and neurological physical processes, not soul-driven process. Change the chemicals, change the neuropathy, change the person entirely. Where then is the soul? That which makes you "you," if it's not in your thought processes, memories, and personality which are all entirely physical outcomes and which can be changed in a blink? I realized I had no more evidence to believe that I would live a blissful eternal life than a housefly does. If I have no reason to believe it about a housefly or bacteria, why the rush to believe it about myself? Well, um, wishful thinking.

For some reason, I guess with time and self-honesty and introspection, not to mention a few experience under general anasthesia which made me realize what 'death' would emulate, I completely lost the fear of not living forever, as well, oddly enough, as the desire TO live forever. I lost the fear of death. I lost the fear of 'not believing in a god.' Sure we don't know how we got here, but we have no evidence that the same "thing" which created malaria and black holes and houseflies and us, is either a "intelligence" or the embodiement of "perfect love and goodness."

It's really not that scary to be on this side, accepting reality to the best of our current observations and not inventing 'feel good' objects of worship representing how we wish and hope things were. Hey it would be great to be wrong, but now I don't need to invent tales or externalize wishful thinking for myself to keep myself happy and unafraid. I'm not 'missing out' by not doing that; I'm perfectly content.

I loved your story and I love that you proudly declare yourself an ex-christian now. Good riddance to that ugliness, and again, congratulations. No one should forget this is a site for ex-christians, not a club for atheists. You will be challenged to continue the thought processes you have started down because some see it as a bit incomplete and still tainted by mythology which you almost admitted you are 'afraid' to give up. Apply the rules of rational investigation to every claim and personal belief, and you really can't go wrong with such self-honesty regardless of where you land, you will know you are on an honest path.

Anonymous said...

Justin,

Your journey is very similar to mine. In fact, I often say that it was through prayer that I was able to see the light and leave the faith.

I also went through a period of exploring other spiritual paths. I enjoyed it and I learned a lot.

Nowadays, I have reached the conclusion that I just don't have the ability to belong to spiritual communities, because most don't welcome inquiry, and all expect me to believe 100% of their tenets.

I also reached the conclusion that in looking for spirituality, I was looking for two things: wisdom and psychology.

These days I read a lot about human wisdom, on how to be a happier person. I also read a lot of psychology to help me recover for the traumas of my life.

I suppose that in order to be wise and emotionally healed, I don't need the belief in a God.

In fact, the word "God," I find, means only bad things to me, so I've stripped it out of my vocabulary.

Good luck on your journey!

Edward T. Babinski said...

Hi Justin,

I know Gary who runs tentmaker.org and he's included some of my own quotations regarding hell in an article at his site:

Quotes about Hell

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/hellquotes.htm

I also mentioned my own reaction to hell in my online testimony

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/leaving_the_fold/babinski_agnosticism.html

Thanks again, Justin, for sharing your story with the group.

Ed

Edward T. Babinski, editor of Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists

Jim Claunch said...

Justin,

Intellectual honesty, justice and compassion have caused you to reject the doctrine of hell and also the inerrancy of Scripture. You have chosen Truth as your authority and rejected authority as your Truth. Reason has conquered superstitious tradition and the Enlightenment has touched your life as well as our world. A bit scary isn't it Justin but also a bit liberating wouldn't you say? Pressed to its limits Reason will lead you in the direction Melodramy has pointed in her post above. It is not an easy journey but is a maturing one and a humbling one. For us to say we are God is to say no more than we are what we are before we make that claim. Nothing changes. To say we should love rather than hate is true with or without gods of any kind and apple pie tastes good with our without a blessing at the table. The values of mercy,honesty,truth,justice and so forth need no validation beyond themselves. Life is better when you respect yourself for doing the right thing and with the practical benefits that these virtues brings more often than not-but not always. Those virtues were the things we liked about "God" but God did not make them good. The virtues were and are good in the same way that the sun shines and brings warmth and light. Virtues are strong and stand on their own. Myths taken literally are a nightmare. I do however find value in myths read as poetry rather than prose and Joseph Campbell www.jcf.org brings some middle ground to say that myths in all cultures may contain deep universal truths about life as we live it but if we take them literally we butcher ourselves and others. Fly planes into buildings and go on crusades and shoot doctors at abortion clinics and stupid stuff like that come from idiots who take mythology literally. Fundamentalists are stupid. At the end of the day we are just people and that is a marvelous and wonderful thing. So few are really comfortable with that but that is what reality is all about us. We are not gods. Would a god go to Wal-mart and buy toilet paper? We are not devils, we are not angels nor are we demons. I do admit that teenage children often think their parents are devils but those same kids thought we were all but gods when they were three. Fact is we are just their friends. You are Justin and I am Jim a couple of guys. This is not heaven nor is it hell. If those were real places we would be able to buy real maps to drive to them at a gas station. They are creatures of the imagination of human kind from every culture. They personify our hopes and our fears. It is just Tuesday in the real world no matter what the preacher said last Sunday. Reality denied and ignored leaves only illusion soon followed by disillusion. Life has enough fog without adding more. Reason and science and business due diligence can bring the facts. The meaning and value of life can never arise from mere facts nor can it be preached into you but must rise from your own appreciation of what is in your own life. Perspective is so very important along with a little gratitude. There really is so very much good and there really is so much crap. Life is no candy store but sweet and sour pork is really pretty good for grown ups. Read Meladramy's post again and dare to consider that someone can belive exactly what she has said and not end in dispair because there is no "god" of any kind at all. I can assure you that it is not only possible but probable if you listen to all of life's message not just the sweet and not just the sour . A full mature blended vision that opens the heart to all the evidence from head and from the heart has the larger view. Did you learn from "Jesus" that love is good. Well Jesus or not loving others and being loved is good. You were right to affirm that. Christianity is certainly not the end all but just one instrument in the symphony . It sometimes plays major chords and other times minor chords but there is a bigger Universe (One song) being played. Religion is not even the major melody of the symphony of life. The true, the beautiful and the good are far deeper strains. It seems to me you have picked up on some of that and like you I hope I find more of that good stuff too!

jimearl said...

Now that you have the hell issue settled, I would suggest reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and settle the "god" issue as well. Good luck in your new found freedom.

HolyHolyHoly said...

Nothing that has been said here proves hell doesn't exist.

godsfavoritecolor said...

Nothing that has been said anywhere in the universe at any time through all of history proves that hell does exist.

ifeelfine72 said...

I've been struggling with this same issue for a while now. I post at Christian Post regularly and I've asked "if you knew for a fact that your child was going to hell, would you have that kid?" Almost everyone there ignored or dismissed the question. It seems like pretty weak faith to me if you're not willing or able to answer the tough questions.

ifeelfine72 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
HolyHolyHoly said...

"if you knew for a fact that your child was going to hell, would you have that kid?"

Hypothetical question. May as well ask if you knew your child would grow to be a mass murderer or a paedophile would you still have it?

It's not really in our hands though is it?

Just think that in hell there will be no Christians and no God and no Gospel. Most people on here should love the concept of hell.

webmdave said...

It's people like you, hokey-boy, who glory in the fantasy of other human beings being tortured in sadisitic agony for all eternity for the ridiculous thought crime of disbelief in Christians' imagniary friend.

Silly Christian, myths are for kids.

Franciscan Monkey said...

HolyHolyHoly said:

Nothing that has been said here proves hell doesn't exist.

True, but as mentioned by godsfavoritecolor, there is no evidence that is does exist, either. Furthermore, the whole concept of hell is incompatible with an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful god.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

boomSLANG said...

Trip'-H...Nothing that has been said here proves hell doesn't exist.

Nothing has been said here, or on Marvelcomics.net, that proves Spiderman doesn't exist. Perhaps you'd like to proffer that evidence now?

Trip'-H...Just think that in hell there will be no Christians and no God and no Gospel. Most people on here should love the concept of hell.

Nah. I'm almost certain that for the majority of us, being jabbed in the ass daily by a pitchfork wielding man-devil, this, as we are being perpetually slow-roasted in a lake of fire... well, it might just prevent us from "loving" the concept of "hell".

Although, as annoying as that concept sounds, it can't be much worse than being seating next to a bunch of lying, cheating, stealing, raping, murdering hypocrites. After all, history shows that "forgiveness" doesn't necessarily stop repeat offenders.

HolyHolyHoly said...

"It's people like you, hokey-boy, who glory in the fantasy of other human beings being tortured in sadisitic agony for all eternity for the ridiculous thought crime of disbelief in Christians' imagniary friend."

It's a tragedy if you believe this. I've said before on here that I don't wish hell on the most evil person I can think of. But I believe it's real.

I repeatedly hear similar statements to this

"The concept of Hell didn't fit the mold of a loving God."

The Bible says that hell is prepared for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41). It's God's love for mankind that motivates Satan to deceive man into refusing the gift of Christ (note the outpouring of God's love towards man on the Cross).

Remember, man CHOSE to turn his back on God. God did not create us to be robots.

We're just given the opportunity to believe it. That's the way God has it. Believe.

Does a person who has always been blind know that the sky is blue? No, but he BELIEVES because someone he trusts tells him it is.
Should he be ridiculed and written off for believing what is true?

The real bottom line question is do we trust the source e.g. the blind man's friend.

Do we trust the Bible? It's a book that shouldn't be written off. It maps out how the world will end. It prophesied that Israel would return to the Home Land. This has come to pass. It prophesies Armageddon. The stage is set.... Iran is preparing for war, check the news today. The West is weakened militarily (current wars on various fronts), financially (credit crunch wreaking havoc), politically (weak leaders) and morally bankrupt. Europe is coming together into an uncomfortable superpower (as prophesied in the Bible).

Will human reasoning and science save us. The Iranian leader is using human reasoning. The G8 leaders are using human reasoning. Science gave us the weapons.

For me it's Christ all the way and my Bible is my source of light.

I urge you not to write it off too quick.

Don't let hell be a stumbling block to believing.

webmdave said...

Hokey-Pokey wrote, "Remember, man CHOSE to turn his back on God. God did not create us to be robots."

First of all, which god? You haven't established that any gods (or devils) even exist, except in your imagination.

Secondly, it's intriguing to me that Christians seem to have no problem serving a despot who will be submitting fellow human beings everlasting condemnation for nothing more than disbelief. "Man" is supposedly condemned by buy-bull-god for all eternity... for thought crimes! It's ridiculous. And worse, it's terrifying to think that any compassionate human being would side with such a demented sadist as this god against other humans!

Don't give me the "You have a choice," bullshit. With a loaded gun to the head, there really isn't much choice. "Love me, worship me, and give me your life, or I'll fucking burn you forever and ever and make you suffer for billions and billions and billions of years and even after that" isn't much of an offer. And frankly, I'd never submit to that kind of a pervert. And if I did, it sure wouldn't be out of love.

Finally, you, apparently don't have freewill anymore. You are a robot of your god. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can no longer CHOOSE to stop being a Christian, right? If so, then you are nothing more than a bot.

Bot want a cracker?

godsfavoritecolor said...

When are you triple-H boneheads going to get it through your thick skulls, that no ex-xtian on this website gives a shit what the Bible says? Your quotes remind me of Maoist Red Guards shaking Mao’s little red book at us and screaming Mao’s sayings. You are wishful thinking out loud.

boomSLANG said...

Trip'-H...The Bible says that hell is prepa[EDIT]

Dear obstinate Christian,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I wade through the apologetic puke, this is the strongest "evidence" you have, yes?...i.e.."the bible says"....correct? And?..you know the bible is true, because why?...because the bible says the bible is true, yes?

You know, it amazes me that you cannot get this through your thick cranium, that this is circular reasoning, and thinking adults will simply not buy into it.

Notwithstanding, another thing you evidently cannot absorb, is that our skepticism on this matter is intrumental, that is, it is a key element in fulfilling your biblegod's "Prophetic" plan. That's right, Einstein, if we were ALL "Christians", your biblegod's "Prophecy" of end-time "apostates" would have failed. You consistantly give your biblegod enough rope to hang itself, and it consistantly does. Go figure.

continues...Remember, man CHOSE to turn his back on God. God did not create us to be robots

More dry-heaves, I see.

Listen, why don't you try to "remember" that according to your "Holy Book", biblegod knows the future; HE knows people will "turn their backs" on him, and we know "He" presumably knows this, because it was "predicted" in the book you admire so much, and thus, if biblegod knows the future, we HAVE NO "free will".

You cannot/will not ever overcome this conundrum no matter how much "faith" you have, or how much ministering you do. Either "free will" goes, or "omniscience" goes, if Christianity, as delineated in the "bible", is "true". Pick one.

Repeat: We ARE "robots", if it is known, in advance, who will, and will not, reject your "God". Our "free will" is an illusion. 'Get it???

Bye now.

Hells Bells said...

HHH wrote: "Iran is preparing for war, check the news today. The West is weakened militarily (current wars on various fronts), financially (credit crunch wreaking havoc), politically (weak leaders) and morally bankrupt. Europe is coming together into an uncomfortable superpower (as prophesied in the Bible)."

This is just great. Let's go back 200 years or so. Where were the most powerful nations on the planet? Ah, yes, Europe. So, what the hell is this about Europe coming together into an uncomfortable superpower? This just smacks of an American imperialist too scared to consider that his country doesn't have a "god-given" right to remain at the top. As someone who actually lives in Europe, the phrase that springs to mind is not "superpower" but "irrelevant bureaucrats". It seems the most important things they do are to pass contradictory laws about how things should be run.

And then you say it's prophesied! Where does it actually say "Europe will come together as an uncomfortable superpower". You know, I just can't find the words "Europe" or "superpower" in the bible. You may also like to bear in mind that most of the founders of Protestantism (which I assume is your faith) thought that Revelation was complete baloney.

Sheesh!!!

HolyHolyHoly said...

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I wade through the apologetic puke, this is the strongest "evidence" you have, yes?...i.e.."the bible says"....correct? And?..you know the bible is true, because why?...because the bible says the bible is true, yes?"

I refer to my own quote

"Do we trust the Bible? It's a book that shouldn't be written off. It maps out how the world will end. It prophesied that Israel would return to the Home Land. This has come to pass. It prophesies Armageddon. The stage is set.... Iran is preparing for war, check the news today. The West is weakened militarily (current wars on various fronts), financially (credit crunch wreaking havoc), politically (weak leaders) and morally bankrupt. Europe is coming together into an uncomfortable superpower (as prophesied in the Bible)."

Boomslang wrote

"Notwithstanding, another thing you evidently cannot absorb, is that our skepticism on this matter is intrumental, that is, it is a key element in fulfilling your biblegod's "Prophetic" plan. That's right, Einstein, if we were ALL "Christians", your biblegod's "Prophecy" of end-time "apostates" would have failed. You consistantly give your biblegod enough rope to hang itself, and t consistantly does. Go figure. "

Where does the Bible say the whole world would be converted? and are you denying Israel are back in the Holy Land after a sustained campaign over 1900 years to wipe out the Jewish race. Was this just a good guess by the Old Testament prophets?

"Repeat: We ARE "robots", if it is known, in advance, who will, and will not, reject your "God". Our "free will" is an illusion. 'Get it???"

Ah, the doctrine of election and predestination. Another stumbling block. The mistake you're making here is using human reasoning to try and understand an eternal doctrine. The question you should ask is how do I become part of the elect. Answer - believe. Child like faith will save you, adult reasoning and questioning will inly create more stumbling blocks. The devil keeps giving you rope to hang yourself.

Astreja said...

Jim Claunch, nice post.

"Myths taken literally are a nightmare. I do however find value in myths read as poetry rather than prose..."

Mythology has great teaching value in a culture. Fantastic stories bridge the gaps between the known and the unknown, exercising the abstract parts of our brains. This allows us to react to unusual situations without getting too badly hurt.

When myths are transmitted person-to-person, they are embellished or rewritten in terms of recent reality, which makes them accessible to people living in similar times and situations.

Scriptures, on the other hand, appear to be somewhat calcified oral traditions and have lost most of their relevance.

"At the end of the day we are just people and that is a marvelous and wonderful thing. So few are really comfortable with that but that is what reality is all about us. We are not gods. Would a god go to Wal-mart and buy toilet paper?"

Mmmm...maybe. But only if My usual store was closed for the night.

"Religion is not even the major melody of the symphony of life. The true, the beautiful and the good are far deeper strains."

I rather like that. Thanks for your post.

godsfavoritecolor said...

Nenlow, the date set for Armageddon has come and gone hundreds of times in the past 2000 years.
By the way, your keeper is looking for you. You haven’t been taking your meds.

boomSLANG said...

Trip'-H...Do we trust the Bible?

Who is "we"? For me, nah, I personally do not trust any religion whose figurehead claims to know the future, and is also claimed to have "omnipotence". It is a blatant philopsophical contradiction. Nor do I believe in book whose religious figurehead claims to be ALL loving, but yet, promises to incinerate its supposed creation with fire for non-compliance to its will. The latter absurdity is compounded when we consider how much stock it puts in, um, "free will". Fucking retard. Nor do I trust any document the speaks of talking snakes, talking vegetation, or talking donkeys.(Although, I now believe domestic asses can type apologetics)

HHH: It's a book that shouldn't be written off.

Too late--the drunk fisherman who wrote it should've thought things thing through a little better. Old Testament---NEW Testament...unchanging???? Uh huh.

HHH: It maps out how the world will end.

No it doesn't.

HHH: It prophesied that Israel would return to the Home Land.

No it didn't.

HHH: This has come to pass.

No it hasn't.

HHH: It prophesies Armageddon.

No, no, no, no. Bullshit. The language is nothing but vague, ambiguous, dark-aged rhetoric applicable to the times it was written, and it is a matter of later "Chrsitians" like you who come waltzing along thousands of years later, and shoe-horn current events to fit the previously "predicted" jargon. Repeat: Bull. shit.

HHH: Where does the Bible say the whole world would be converted?

Where did I say that's what the bible said? You missed it. I said, the bible predicts there will be APOSTATES..i.e..non-believers. Thus, if there were no apostates/skeptics, etc., it would have been a FAILED "Prophecy". 'Get it? Ding Dong?!

The mistake you're making here is using human reasoning to try and understand an eternal doctrine.

The mistake YOU are making, is that I'm too smart to fall for such idiotic equivocation. You use the bible and what is says for your arguments; I use your premise that it's "true", to point out all of its internal inconsistancies, contradictions, and over all bullshit. Lump it.

Franciscan Monkey said...

HolyHolyHoly wrote:

The Bible says that hell is prepared for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41). It's God's love for mankind that motivates Satan to deceive man into refusing the gift of Christ (note the outpouring of God's love towards man on the Cross).

Remember, man CHOSE to turn his back on God. God did not create us to be robots.

We're just given the opportunity to believe it. That's the way God has it. Believe.


Even assuming for the sake of argument that all of the above is true, the concept of hell is still incompatible with an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful god.

According to the Bible, the majority of people will not be saved. Why would a loving God create these people if he knew that most of them would burn in flames for eternity? Why could he not just let all the unbelievers into heaven anyway? Another thing, why would God allow Satan, his arch-enemy, to deceive his own children? The whole thing is so non-sensical, I can't believe I fell for it as long as I did.

A few questions for you. Does God have free will, or is he a robot? Is it possible for God to sin? Is God perfect?

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

Danny Tuason said...

Hey guys and HolyHolyHoly,

Huys...please take it easy on HolyHolyHoly.

He is just brainwashed as hell!
He couldn't even think straight. In fact he couldn't think...such a waste of brain material. Even Homer Simpson is smarter than him.

We ex Christians know the Bible is a book of fiction...written for lemmings just like HolyHolyHoly.

I agree if God exists and He's a loving God...why would He create hell? If He knew the majority of people would go there, why would He create them in the first place? If all that is true, then God is cruel...God is not loving!

Why would He favor just one race? Didn't He create the other races too? How come they are not favored in His eyes? I guess that God shows favoritism and discrimination.

How come He condones slavery? I though He loved everybody?

Why would He create a devil? Why would He blame people who get deceived by the devil? Why didn't He make our brains perfect to really discern good from evil and thrash the devil? Why did He give us puny brains that get easily deceived by the devil? And then He blames us for it and send us to hell? What kind of satisfaction does God get for sending us to hell when He is a loving God and love is unconditional? To me hell proves that God's love is conditional. "Love me or...go to hell."

I heard that true love is not jealous...then how come we have a jealous God?

How come He relishes the smell of dead animal sacrifices? To me it sounds like He is more like the devil!

And He's 3 in one! C'mon you gotta be kidding me! You believe this drivel HolyHolyHoly?

When Jesus was nailed to the cross and said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." That meant "Me...forgive them for they know not what they do." Why did He have to say it when He is talking to Himself?

And when He died...and got resurrected in 3 days...so what happened during those 3 days? God was dead for 3 days? C'mon! If that happened, then don't you think the world would have died too?

C'mon HolyHolyHoly...think...you have a brain...use it!!! Too bad you can't see it!!!

You're so fearful of hell you follow your "truth laden" Bible to the letter. You couldn't even see that book is just a compilation of other books...bull drivel...written by primitive people...tsk tsk tsk!!!

Go see a brain surgeon HolyHolyHoly...have a lobotomy! You don't need your brain because you're not using it anyway! Give it to somebody else!

Just concerned,
Danny Tuason

PS Oh sheesh! I said take it easy on HolyHolyHoly and I attacked him too! Oh me oh my!

Oh well!

jimearl said...

A friend of mine once gave me the definition of heaven and hell.

"Heaven is when you don't have to ask the price of something while shopping. Hell is when there's not enough money to paid the bills every month."

Neither of them exist in reality.

So many religions, not enough realists.

ifeelfine72 said...

holyholyholy - You did exactly what everyone else did which is dismissed my question. Answer the question at the heart of it - would a loving God create something knowing full well that it isn't going to choose Him and is instead going to go to hell?

jimearl said...

I believe the answer to ifeelfine's question is no. If the answer is yes, then the god could not be defined as loving.

Danny said...

I stumbled upon this website maybe by mistake or with purpose. It seems to me that many people if not all who post on this website have failed to really KNOW God. You might have gained knowledge ABOUT God but failed to actually KNOW (establish a real relationship)with him. Someone who really accepted Christ as their savior cannot be afraid of hell for they are truely saved from its eternal fire. Others here are asking that "if God is an all loving God why did he create hell and send people there?" If you knew what the Bible really says you would know that hell was not originally created for man but for satan and his angels for turning against God. God is all loving and that was the reason for him sending Jesus to die for us. As a ransom to pay for our debt(sin) so that we will not go to that awful place. For all of you reading this God still loves you even though you have maybe decided to reject him. There is still time to turn back to him as he welcomes you back with open arms. Those who choose to still not believe there is a hell and willfully reject the living God than yes there is a space reserved just for you in a not so nice place. If you dont believe that now you will when you get there. Remember God doesnt want anyone to go there, it is clearly write in the Bible that he wishes no one goes there. God does love us.

ifeelfine72 said...

danny, how about you answer my question then?

ifeelfine72 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Danny Tuason said...

To Danny,

Wow! You're truly suckered into that Bible stuff huh?

C'mon use your brain...do some research. Who wrote that Bible? It's just a compilation of writings from primitive sheep herders!

If it is the Book of Enlightenment how come a lot of people are completely baffled by its inconsistencies? Most people get more confused by reading it! I guess you just haven't read the whole Bible! If you did, you will call it a Buy-bull...a book for dummies and nitwits!

If that god is a loving God, then why would He create a devil in the first place? How come he lets millions of people suffer and perish? In the Great Flood, how come He killed most of his animals when they were all innocent?

And I guess for your claim to KNOW God...have you actually talked to the Guy? Did He talk back to you? What did He say? Can you share that with us? Were you on drugs when you talked with Him? How did you know it was Him and not the devil who talked back to you? Remember the devil can deceive you...right? How do you know it's God and not the devil? What does God look like? Does He look like Michael Stipe from the group R.E.M.? Or John Lennon? C'mon...tell us! We're all interested!

You KNOW God huh? Sure! Prove it!

Thanks in advance!

Danny Tuason

PS Now I am thinking about changing my name...because I just realized you are so stupidly blind I don't want to be associated to you. But...there's still hope! You can start opening your eyes! Just get more sleep! Use your logic and reasoning powers. Stop praying! and start doing! Only you can help yourself...stop praying to an Imaginary Being! It's like you're praying to Mickey Mouse and you think Mickey is real!

boomSLANG said...

Danny...Remember God doesnt want anyone to go there[Hell], it is clearly [written] in the Bible that he wishes no one goes there. God does love us.[emphasis added to capitalize on contradiction]

Hey, thanks for droppin' in, little man.

Um, we don't believe in biblegod anymore. So, what I'm saying is that making assertions about what "God" does and does not do, and/or, what "God" does and does not want, is utterly immaterial to us.

However, assuming your superstitious rhetoric true, I still have a question. You seem to be saying that this invisible biblegod of yours doesn't really want to send people to "hell". Thus, my question revolves around biblegod's presumed omnipotence..i.e..it's supposed UNlimited "free will". When you insist that biblegod doesn't want to send anyone to "hell", are you then saying that biblegod is forced to do something against its "will"? It MUST do something that it ultimately does NOT want to do, in which case, its free will then becomes limited? 'Listening.

swifty32661 said...

Danny,

This is a joke right...you're really an atheist? Come clean...really.

If the Webmaster had a dollar for every time someone wrote something like you wrote...well, he'd be quite rich.

Everyone one of your nonsensical ASSERTIONS have been refuted.

Please really think about what you're saying, REALLY think about it...say it out loud. Can you see how ridiculous it is?

Try taking of the rose colored glasses and critically analyze it. Put your self in an outsiders perspective (imagine someone who's never heard of religion/christianity)and see if what you're saying would make any sense.

I hate to beat a dead horse as the analogy has been brought up many times. Imagine a killer putting a gun to your families head and threatening to pull the trigger. He won't pull the trigger if you promise to love him and obey him. You would probably make that promise right? Do you REALLY feel that you had a "choice"? Would you then REALLY love that person or just go through some type of motions just so he doesn't kill your family later?

That's basically what you get with the God/Hell thing. You can try to twist it anyway you want to but it boils down to that simple premise, You love me or get tortured for eternity. What kind of choice is that?

I could go on and on but don't have the time. I'm sure the other people on here will be more than happy to show you the errors of your ways.

Franciscan Monkey said...

Danny wrote:

Others here are asking that "if God is an all loving God why did he create hell and send people there?" If you knew what the Bible really says you would know that hell was not originally created for man but for satan and his angels for turning against God.

OK, even if the above were true, why would God send his allegedly beloved creations there? Why not let unbelievers into heaven, or perhaps to some other peaceful place? No Christian in this thread has yet given a good reason.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

Danny said...

ifeelfine72:

This is my answer to your question. You have free will, you nor anyone else is a robot. You decided to eat breakfast this morning right? you could have chosen not to as well. In EVERY persons life God has given them the opportunity to accept his mercy and grace through Jesus showing that he loves everyone and does not want anyone to go to hell. If you are given an opportunity by someone to avoid something bad wouldnt you accept it? Of course. But you also have the choice to reject it. God created hell for satan and his angels. satan is the deceiver that turns us away from God. All who turn from God become friends with satan and obviously enemies of God therefore get the same fate he will get. satan means "adversary" by the way.

But its through Jesus that we reconcile ourselves with God and obtain his love and mercy.

One question for you. Do you still believe in the Bible?

Danny said...

For all others ill let God's word speak and not me:


”For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness SUPPRESS THE TRUTH. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity [spiritual], has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made [physical]. So they are without excuse; for although they knew [about] God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools” (Romans. 1:18-22)


GOD LOVES ALL OF YOU DESPITE YOUR DISBELIEF IN HIM!

webmdave said...

God loves us despite our disbelief, but ti is because of our disbelief that HE threatens to torture us in the most hideous and sadistic ways imaginable for all eternity?

Wow, now that's the wrath of a lover scorned... for real!

Danny said...

Can anyone answer this question for me?

What bad thing did God (not church people because they can be as wicked as anyone else which is sad) ever do to anyone of you to feel towards him in the way you do?

webmdave said...

Danny, what evil, horrible thing did Allah, Zeus and Thor do to you that you refuse to fall down and worship them?

Once we believed in your myth. We no longer do. I am as mad at your god as I am at Santa. However, if someone were to insist that Santa is real and tell me that if I didn't believe in Santa that I'd be tortured for all eternity, I'd respond just as I do now.

So, ask me why I'm mad at Santa.

Franciscan Monkey said...

Danny,

God never did anything good or bad to me as he is non-existant. I don't have any feelings toward God as he is non-existant.

There, I've answered your questions. Now, please answer mine. Assuming the hypothetical situation that the God of the Bible is real and that hell is real, why does he allow those he supposedly loves to go to hell? Why can't he allow unbelievers into heaven?

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

boomSLANG said...

Xian Danny....This is my answer to your question.

Actually, no, you must be refering to someone elses question; my question involves biblegod being powerless to get its own Will met---in which case, "God" is NOT "omnipotent".

I'll tend to this while I'm here, however...

Xian Danny...You have free will, you nor anyone else is a robot.

If your biblegod exists and knows the future, then yes, we most certainly are "robots".(see below)

You decided to eat breakfast this morning right? you could have chosen not to as well.

Yes; right. Now, did your "God" know, prior to the fact, that I was going to eat breakfast this morning? If so - if your "God" knew my supposed "choice" of whether to eat breakfast, or not - then the future, my future, is/was FIXED. Thus, my "free will" is an illusion, thus, I am as good as a robot simply fulfilling everything that "God" supposedly already knows..i.e.."His Plan"...not mine.

Have fun!..enjoy your stay!

stronger now said...

"In EVERY persons life God has given them the opportunity to accept his mercy and grace through Jesus..."

So when the bible says that the biblegod chooses who will or will not believe in him...it's LYING?

Wow. I don't think you KNOW this god you speak of at all.

Danny said...

Franciscan Monkey...
You chose to believe he is not real, but that doesnt make him not real, just not real to you.

And to answer your question: God doesnt not hate the sinner, he loves them. God hates the sin commited by the sinner. And he understands that its not we who commit the sin but the evil forces at work in us. That is why he gives us the way out which is through Jesus.

For the pay of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life with him through Jesus Christ says the Bible.

What happens when you kill someone? You are convicted and sentenced to jail if not life in jail! Why? because justice is done. Same thing with God, you deliberately chose to not care about him and sin, when he has the best things for you and wants to give you eternal life , justice must be done. A price must be paid. That is where grace comes in. When we dont deserve anything he is willing to offer, he still offers the best for us. That price we are suppose to pay by going to hell was paid on the cross by Jesus so that we dont have to go there. But we still chose to reject it.

Last thing. In your case, what if hell is real and you just chose not to believe it? What if when you die you actually end up there?

Danny said...

boomslang....thnanks, I really am enjoying my stay.


Stronger now....can you quote where the Bible says that? Or was it something you just heard someone say? Back up your comment please.

boomSLANG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
boomSLANG said...

Danny,

You are off to horrible start. You appear to be totally ignoring the questions put to you - either that, or purposely interpreting the questions wrong - and instead, firing back with your own questions under the presupposition that the bible is true and inerrant, and because "Danny" believes it's "true" and "inerrant", then everyone else must therefore believe it's true, as well. Wrong; you are sadly mistaken, and I implore you to stop this annoying tactic at once if you are intent on us discussing it with you.

Again, as pointed out to you, we do NOT believe your "Jesus" has a referent in reality. If we discuss "Jesus" with you, it is merely under the pretense that said being exists, this, in an attempt to illustrate the blatant illogicity of said concept(s). 'Get it?

Here is my original inquiry:

"You seem to be saying that this invisible biblegod of yours doesn't really want to send people to 'hell'. Thus, my question revolves around biblegod's presumed omnipotence..i.e..it's supposed UNlimited 'free will'. When you insist that biblegod doesn't want to send anyone to 'hell', are you then saying that biblegod is forced to do something against its 'will'? It MUST do something that it ultimately does NOT want to do, in which case, its free will then becomes limited?"

'Listening.

Franciscan Monkey said...

Danny, you wrote:

You chose to believe he is not real, but that doesnt make him not real, just not real to you.

Just like you believing him to be real doesn't make him real, just real to you. And just because you don't believe in the Muslim God, that doesnt make him not real, just not real to you. The same could be said of any god or any belief.

You continued:

For the pay of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life with him through Jesus Christ says the Bible.

But why would unbelief, or even sin, deserve death and hell, Danny?

What happens when you kill someone? You are convicted and sentenced to jail if not life in jail! Why? because justice is done. Same thing with God, you deliberately chose to not care about him and sin, when he has the best things for you and wants to give you eternal life , justice must be done. A price must be paid.

First of all, it's not that I don't care for God, as I've already said, I have no feelings either way for a non-existant being. Secondly, if hell were true, the punishment of eternal torment grossly outweighs the crime of being a sinner and an unbeliever. Thirdly, if God supposedly loves us, why not let everyone into heaven? He is omnipotent, isn't he? See, this is why the whole concept is ridiculous.

Last thing. In your case, what if hell is real and you just chose not to believe it? What if when you die you actually end up there?

Well, then I will burn for eternity. I have the utmost confidence that is hell not real. My decision did not come lightly, but was based on the realization that the Bible cannot be true for a myriad of reasons, and the total lack of evidence that there is a hell, or a god, for that matter. Danny, what if the Muslim hell is real, and you just chose not to believe it? Allah loves you and wants you to convert to Islam, but you have chosen to turn your back on him and sin. What are you going to do when you end up in the Muslim hell?

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

Danny said...

boomslang.....not at any point in time did I say you had to believe what Im saying. You either chose to or not is that simple.

God is God. He can do as he wishes. He can send us all to hell if he wanted to right now. But thats just it. He doesnt want to, yet he will if you chose not to believe in him. He will do what he does not want to, you are correct there and he still remains omnipontent. He could make you believe in him right now if he wanted to. Yet his love is not forced onto others, he lets us choose.

Lastly, if I chose to believe in God and there is no God no hell or no heaven and it was really all made up I have nothing to worry about or lose when I die. If you chose not to believe in God and there really is a God a heaven and a hell than you have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

You're still alive. You still have time to turn back. Once you;re in the grave theres not turning back there.

I wish you the best.
Many blessings to you from the God I belive in.

Danny said...

Franciscan Monkey....

Do you know the real difference between Christianity and other "religions". Christianity offers GRACE. No other "religion" offers that. Christianity is not a religion, its a relationship between you and God. Its a way of life. There are no other Gods, not because I said it but becuase God himself said it. He is the only true God.

When the Bible speaks about "death" its not speaking about physical death, its refering to spiritual death. We are spiritual beings.

If a serial killer goes on a rampage why does he deserve jail? Why dont we just let all serial killers run around lose if the government has the power to? See the point?

Its your choise Monkey. Think about it real good.

The devils greatest trick was to make people believe him and God dont exist. Makes his work a lot easier.

Many Blessing from the God I believe in. The only true God.

stronger now said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hells Bells said...

Danny said: "You might have gained knowledge ABOUT God but failed to actually KNOW (establish a real relationship)with him." Actually I fully believed that I was in a real relationship with God. Only now I think that I was deluding myself with platitudes that made me feel better, and occasionally saying and doing things that encouraged others in the same futility.

Danny asked: "One question for you. Do you still believe in the Bible?" No. And my belief in God outlasted my belief in the bible, although only by a matter of months.

Danny asked "What bad thing did God (not church people because they can be as wicked as anyone else which is sad) ever do to anyone of you to feel towards him in the way you do?" OK - the church was pretty despicable to me. Actually that's churches (plural). But there were a small group of Christians who I remained in contact with who seemed to me to be the epitome of what church should have been. Yet the questions kept coming. And eventually I realised that there was nothing there - at least nothing that I could say had unambiguously communicated with me. What bad thing had God done? Nothing - and that's the point.

Danny wrote: "Lastly, if I chose to believe in God and there is no God no hell or no heaven and it was really all made up I have nothing to worry about or lose when I die. If you chose not to believe in God and there really is a God a heaven and a hell than you have everything to lose and nothing to gain." But if you live your life in faith then you may well be dying in delusion, having stopped yourself from some really amazing and fruitful experiences. And the counter-point that you make is basically fear - "you'd better believe because if I'm right you're going to burn". Except that Muslims will say exactly the same to you. I'd much rather make a decision rationally than one based entirely on fear. Believe me, I lived in fear for 40 years and it nearly killed me. I'm not doing that again.

stronger now said...

O.k.

Acts 13:48, EPHESIANS 1:3-6, ROMANS 9:10-18.

How does your imaginary friend/deity get by the free will paradox? If he knows the future he already knows what future "choices" you will make before he creates you, he already knows if he's going to eventually send you to hell or not. If he doesn't know he is going to send you to hell, then he doesn't know the future. If he doesn't know the future then he isn't all knowing.

godsfavoritecolor said...

"Christianity offers GRACE."
GRACE who? What does she look like? How old is she?
Never mind! At my age I'll take anything I can get.
What's her phone number?

Franciscan Monkey said...

Danny,

Do you know the real difference between Christianity and other "religions". Christianity offers GRACE. No other "religion" offers that.

Not true, Islam offers grace. Allah is both gracious and merciful, or so he claims. Even if Chistianity were the only religion to offer "grace," why would that make it any more true? How do you make the connection between grace and veracity?

There are no other Gods, not because I said it but becuase God himself said it.

Well, then it must be true. Wait, Allah also says that he is the only god (and Mohammad is his prophet). So I guess that is true. Oh, and where did you get the quote from your god, BTW? The Bible, written by men? Why am I not impressed? I am the only true God. There, that must be true, since I, God, said it. And you didn't even have to get it second-hand, like in the Bible. It's right from My Own Mouth. Or at least from My Holy Computer.

If a serial killer goes on a rampage why does he deserve jail? Why dont we just let all serial killers run around lose if the government has the power to? See the point?

Your point is not logical. The government locks up killers because they have no other way of controlling them, to keep them from killing again. Are you suggesting that God is so weak that if he let unbelievers into heaven, we'd convert all the believers? Don't you also think that if God did let unbelevers into heaven, we'd become believers? So, what's the harm? And if God really is that powerless, couldn't he at least make a separate heaven for unbelievers? Why the need to burn them forever? You still have not answered that.

Its your choise Monkey. Think about it real good.

I already have, and that's why I don't believe in a god. I suggest you try to think objectively, Danny.

The devils greatest trick was to make people believe him and God dont exist. Makes his work a lot easier.

Religion's greatest trick is to make people believe in God and in eternal rewards and punishment. I know it's hard to face reality, Danny, when it seems you are giving up so much (heaven) and risking so much (hell), but, please, try to use your mind. It will be much more rewarding than you think.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

boomSLANG said...

Danny(Xian guest)...boomslang.....not at any point in time did I say you had to believe what Im saying.

So, I don't have to believe you, then? Phew!...what a relief. Thanks!

Danny...You either chose to[believe] or not [it] is that simple.

Right, right, right... and I choose not to believe---not necessarily because I don't want to believe, but because I simply cannot force myself to believe illogical concepts/ideals. Can you "choose" to believe in "Shazam", and yet, do so in way where you are honest with yourself?

Danny..God is God.

- Zeus is Zeus

- Odin is Odin

- The Hulk is the Hulk

- Gumby is Gumby

- Huckleberry Hound is Hukleberry Hound

'See the fallacy of the argument yet???

Danny...He can do as he wishes.

If he existed, yeah, sure, he could do as he wished. Although, ***according to you and your Holy hand-book, he evidently wishes that he didn't have to send people who refuse to accept "His" existence on "faith" to "hell". So Danny-boy, there's one instance of your biblegod NOT getting his wishes. Thus, no, "God" cannot do "as he wishes"(in every case).

Danny...He can send us all to hell if he wanted to right now.

No, not if neither "he" nor "hell" existed. You have to admit that would be a rather difficult task.

Danny...But thats just it. He doesnt want to, yet he will if you chose not to believe in him.

You evidently have a reading comprehension problem. Per biblegod's omniscience, he already knows who is hell-bound and who isn't. Further, if he knows this information, then we have no "free will". Repeat: Either "omniscience" goes, or "omnipotence" goes. Pick one.

Danny...He will do what he does not want to..

Then you are saying that the will of man, trumps the "Will of God". That's a bit backwards, wouldn't you say????

Danny......you are correct there and he still remains omnipontent.

No; his "free will" becomes limited the minute man's free will takes precedence over "His" own. 'Get it yet???

Danny...He could make you believe in him right now if he wanted to.

Maybe, but right now, if he exists, he's making me NOT believe in him. I cannot believe what my mind won't let me believe. Similar to how you cannot believe in "Allah".

Danny...Yet his love is not forced onto others, he lets us choose.

::YAWN::

Yes, yes!... like a mugger with 38 revolver pressed against your temple let's you "choose" whether you want to hand over your wallet, or not. Yes, uh huh.

Danny...Lastly, if I chose to believe in God and there is no God no hell or no heaven and..[EDIT!!]

Pascal's Wager: Fails.

Danny...You're still alive. You still have time to turn back. Once you;re in the grave theres not turning back there.

You're still alive! You still have time to surrender your evil, non-Muslim ways, and repent to Allah! Once you're in the grave...there's no turning back!!!!!!!

Danny said...

well I must say I enjoyed the chats. I said all i had to say If i didnt answer some queztions its because they were ilogical or something along the line. No hate to anyone as there is no reason, we are just expressing opinions. As a true Christian would do I sincerely wish u all the best. You are all convinced in what u believe and so am I. We'll have to wait till the end to see who was right after all. For the sake of ur happiness i hope u all are. If not .... Well u all had a chance. Blessings to all.

sconnor said...

Dear Danny,

I know how you feel; I'm right there with you, man. Don't listen to any of those heathens at Exchristian, because they no nothing about what we are talking about. We know we're saved and we know they are not.

My road to salvation came, when I completely accepted -- with all my heart -- that He exists! I have been saved by an invisible Leprechaun, who lives in the majestic and blissful Sequoia National Park -- only in a different dimension. I can communicate with Him telepathically. He doesn't verbally speak to me, but I do know that He hears and every once and a while He grants me wishes. Sometimes the wishes come true and sometimes they don't. I guess Leprechauns work in mysterious ways. I keep telling all my friends, that they have to choose to believe in the invisible Leprechaun, because He told me that if we don't, we can't come live with Him, when we die. Furthermore, if we don't choose Him, He'll use his all-mighty, magic and send us to Pluto when we die, where we will freeze in eternal torture. But He doesn't want to do that to us, because, everyone knows, Leprechauns are the most loving creatures.

I keep telling my friends and the unbelievers here at Exchristian, that if I chose to believe in My Leprechaun and there is no Leprechaun, no freezing Pluto or no Sequoia National Park and it was really all made up I have nothing to worry about, or lose when I die. If you chose not to believe in the Leprechaun and there really is a Leprechaun, another dimensional Sequoia Park and the doom of the freezing Pluto, than you have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

Danny, you and I got nothing to lose, we're saved while everyone else, who doesn't think like us, is eternally damned. Praise our Lords, Hallelujah!

May the Lord of the Leprechauns bless you, with His unwavering love.

--S.

Bill said...

Danny please don't threaten us with "you had a chance". Can't you see what you are saying with a statement like that?

Philip said...

It's interesting to me that not a single Christian on this site (to my knowledge) has actually answered the question, "Well, on the other hand, what if Islam is true and you're wrong?"

Of course they'll just say "Well, but the Qur'an contradicts the Bible" and other nonsense, but they truly have not a single good argument. I mean, if we're talking about reliability of documents, then certainly the Qur'an (written in the presence of Muhammad during his hallucinations/"visions") would be more trustworthy than the Bible.

But I'm sure apologists have come up with some byzantine rationalization for it.

boomSLANG said...

Danny...I said all i had to say If i didnt answer some queztions its because they were ilogical or something along the line

Something "along the line" of illogical? Our counter arguments are either logical, or they aren't. If you feel they aren't, feel free to pick one or two specific arguments that you feel are the weakest, and either I, or someone else, will try to clarify them for you.

Danny...we are just expressing opinions.

Is this a faux pas?... or is this an admission that everything you said here is merely your "opinion"?

Danny...Well [you] all had a chance.

Danny? There are TENS OF THOUSANDS of known deities throughout history. You, like me, deny them all, with the exception of one. In other words, you are many, many, many times over more an Atheist, than you are a Theist. Thus, your smug comment about us having our "chance" is laughable, at least where odds are concerned.

ifeelfine72 said...

Danny: Again you didn't answer my question. I was pretty certain you wouldn't because you don't like the implications of the answer. Fundamentalist Christians don't like answering the tough questions. But unlike you, I will answer your question: yes, I do believe in God and I am a Christian and do believe that the Bible is the Word of God (although not to be taken literally).

Nina said...

Danny
Nothing....God did nothing....that is the point.
nina

Danny said...

”For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness SUPPRESS THE TRUTH. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his INVISIBLE nature, namely, his eternal power and deity [spiritual], has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made [physical]. So they are WITHOUT EXCUSE; for although they knew [about] God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools” (Rom. 1:18-22)

boomSLANG said...

The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christians call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying [from] their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are decluded away from the Truth! (The Holy Qu'ran 9:30)

Danny said...

1 Corinthinas 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is the reason why God makes no sense to you.

My chat ends here.

boomSLANG said...

Qu'ran 5:33-34
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful!

My chat ends here; this is your last chance!

webmdave said...

Danny doesn't seem to realize that Paul was nothing more than a cult leader. Naturally a cult leader would curse people who think his cult is baloney. All cult leaders do that, have always done that, and will forever continue to do that.

Cursed be the unbelievers and their wicked, evil unbelief!

God just hates unbelief. It's a thought crime of the highest magnitude. You can be guilty of the most henious crimes, but if you perform the thought ritual of belief, then all is well. If you live a model life but perform the thought crime of unbelief, it's off to the eternal torture chamber for you!

Ridiculous.

Danny said...

Despite our differences I wish you all the best.

Good Bye

webmdave said...

Danny,

Your cult mentality has proven impervious. You have predictably hidden behind the parroted words of ancient, human, cult leaders and ignored anything and everything that would challenge your religious indoctrination. You have successfully shut your mind to reason and have chosen instead a prison of archane mythology. You have spurned the free gift of rational thought.

In the future, when the years of your one-and-only life have been squandered serving an invisible, imaginary dictator, just remember, you had your chance.

Dichtotomy Incarnate said...

The concept that these Christian posters do not understand is the idea of 'proportionality' in justice. If mankind was made in God's image, and we have an inherent sense of mortality and justice, just like God, then it is logical to assume that God practices the same idea.

Example- In most societies the penalty for speeding or jaywalking is small. while that for murder is large. The punishment must be proportional to the crime.

An eternity in Hell is not proportional to most, if not all of crimes that Christians claim merit damnation. And if, like the bible says, most humans end up in Hell, then the net result of God's creation is eternal suffering.

Look at it this way;

lets say 10 billion people have lived. 'The road is narrow' so the majority of mankind ends up in Hell, while the chaste few live in eternal bliss.
So lets say 80% of mankind go to Hell, while 20% go to heaven.

That means that the net result of God's creation is 8 billion people suffering for all time.

Merciful? Loving?

Also this type of result implies that the Devil is actually more powerful than God because he get the vast majority of souls for Eternity.

Your explanation does not make logical sense, period.
Why would God give us a sense of reason, mercy, logic and proportionality if he himself did not use them?

Why would a prescient God create mankind if the net result of his creation suffered for all time?

How can the Devil, a creation of God himself, become more powerful and influential than his creator? Why would God allow mass suffering beyond human understanding due to his own errors? He could 'uncreate' the Devil and start again.

Also most 'sinners' suffer on earth for their actions- Alcoholics have health problems, criminals most often go to jail, promiscuous people get diseases.

So then we have a situation of 'double jeopardy' where they are punished for the same sins twice. Once on earth, then again in Hell.

Again I ask, Loving? Merciful?

Do not be cowards you 'Dogmatic Bullies'.. Answer these questions in a logical manner.

sconnor said...

Danny,

Ah, yes, when confronted with the ridiculous and illogical nature of your christian club and not being able to answer the poignant, salient and germane, questions and comments, you cower in your bunker of Bibles, where new and enlightening information is avoided, at all cost, to protect your delusional faith.

What is painfully, obvious is, you can't stand the scrutiny and detailed examination of your floundering faith, so in an effort to save face and remedy the situation, you took it upon your self to "graciously" bow out, in all the eloquence of a large flightless bird, planting it's small, mind-numbingly, ignorant, head, firmly in the sand.

Typical pussy, christian, can't handle the heat.

--S.

The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be believed only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.'
-Robert G. Ingersoll

stronger now said...

I see that you didn't respond to the buybull passages I gave you danny.

Are they "illogical"?

Also, you failed to point out to us why "queztions" you didn't answer were "illogical". Isn't it your duty to tell the truth and give justification for your faith?(the bible says so)

You see why I think that you don't "know" this god you speak of, don't you danny?

So instead of admitting you are lying to yourself, you ran away.

When you start to be honest with yourself, it makes it easier to be honest with others.

Bye danny, hope you don't get tortured for eternity for not haveing a "real" relationship whith this deity you claimed to "know".

Asshole.

Danny Tuason said...

Blogger Danny said...

Can anyone answer this question for me?

What bad thing did God (not church people because they can be as wicked as anyone else which is sad) ever do to anyone of you to feel towards him in the way you do?


To the blind Danny...

You're referring to the Bible God right?

Well that God didn't do anything to me! Because He doesn't exist!

What do I feel towards Him?
I don't hate Him! I don't love Him! Because He doesn't exist!

Now let me throw a question at you...blind Danny...

What bad thing did Mickey Mouse ever do to you to feel towards him in the way you do?

Did Mickey Mouse ever love you? Do you love Him? If you don't love Mickey I heard He is going to send you to hell!

But you have free will! You can love Him or not love Him? If you choose the latter, Mickey will send you to hell!

How come you're not afraid of Mickey who is a fictitious character when you're afraid of the Bible God who is also a fictitious character?

What's the difference? Do you believe in those sheep herders (writers of the Holy Bible) more than Walt Disney? Wow! What kind of marijuana are you smoking?

Peace to you...blind Danny!

Danny Tuason :)

nvrgoingbk said...
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nvrgoingbk said...
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nvrgoingbk said...

Ah, yes, i remember being 13-years-old and responding to the "call of faith" as well. I too remember running scared to the alter with the immediate need to save myself from that ol' fiery abyss called Hell. Sixteen years later, much like yourself, I researched the doctrine of Hell after finding out in my World Religion class just where the concept started (Google Zoroastrians and Hell) and thus began an inevitable journey OUT of the Christian faith and into the pure light of reason.

While, I do not call myself an Athiest (I have no pressing need to define myself anymore), I no longer fall prey to the scare tactics employed by the "faithful" and refuse to bow to any maniacal "Master", be it Allah or Yahweh. If "god" exists he/she/it/they have failed to make known his/her/their commandments known to all the world in such a way that there be no room left for conjecture. Until then, we are left only to muse. My musings take me far above lowly religious and dogmatic beliefs to black holes, to nebulae, to star dust and comet tails. It's up there that all of our silly religious arguments fade and the only sound to be heard is that of the voice DIVINE.

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