Atheists... do you have a purpose?
Sent in by Jackie
A couple of days ago, in the middle of the thread about integrity of the Christian community, somebody posted an interesting question that I couldn't wait to jump all over. He asked "Atheists... do you have a purpose?"
I must have hit cancel instead of publish because my comment never went on the thread. So, I figured it would make a better discussion topic instead.
My response to this question goes something like this:
By purpose, if you mean divine, then of course not, because we don't believe in the divine. If you mean responsibility, then yes. We don't need motivation to do the right thing. We don't have to have a carrot dangling in front of us. (And by carrot, you could interpret that to be heaven, spiritual gifts, blah, blah...)
Sometimes I get quite an ego and like to think that I have more ethics and morals in my little atheist pinky finger than most Christians do.
I don't have an ulterior motive to be friends with someone. My relationships aren't fake. If I don't like someone, I don't get close to them. I can be friends with someone without planning a sales pitch and hoping for the day they change to being just like me. I respect diversity. I'm friends with people because I like them and enjoy having them around me.
I don't need a reason to help someone. No crown, no streets of gold, no mansion... just knowing that I might have made someone else's day a little better. I don't expect recognition from a choir of angels for making a good decision. I make good decisions because I have a brain. I do the right thing because I give a shit.
I care about the world around me. I am not awaiting the glorious day of Mithras' return... I mean Jesus.... oops. I believe in the one planet that I share with billions of other people on it and I take some responsibility to make it a better place.
I don't need a reason to help someone. No crown, no streets of gold, no mansion... just knowing that I might have made someone else's day a little better. I don't expect recognition from a choir of angels for making a good decision. I make good decisions because I have a brain. I do the right thing because I give a shit. Religion does nothing to make the world peaceful. Religious sects of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc., each thinking they are the only one that is right and every one else should be eradicated from the planet, doesn't sound like a very good peacekeeping strategy to me. There is one planet... we all share it... we are all ruining it. The rest of the world needs to buck up, admit that they may not have all the answers, and start recycling!
And finally, to think that one has a specific "purpose" which is divine is a very egotistical thing to believe. What about the starving children in Africa? What's their purpose? Be born with aids and starve to death? Nice... Maybe you could take that purpose of a "higher calling" and do something intelligent with it, like find a way to end hunger and cure cancer. Forget preaching your bible crap... starving people will do whatever they must for food. If they don't mean it in their hearts when they prayed that sinner's prayer, just doing it for food, are they still saved? The bible I read says no, or maybe that's just my interpretation.
I've been there, thinking I had a higher calling. I devoted two years to ministry training and nothing else. I kept believing that God would have me doing something amazing to turn the world to Him. But here I am, 10 years later... working a job I hate to pay the bills -- because I chose not to go to an actual college and get a real degree -- raising a beautiful son, happily professing my atheism and living a life happier and more fulfilled than ever (despite the job). If I wouldn't have decided to take my life in my own hands and waited for that proverbial door to open, I'd still be going to the college-age Sunday school, waiting for my soul mate and believing that I was an ambassador to the world, all the while never leaving comforts of my church.
A couple of days ago, in the middle of the thread about integrity of the Christian community, somebody posted an interesting question that I couldn't wait to jump all over. He asked "Atheists... do you have a purpose?"
I must have hit cancel instead of publish because my comment never went on the thread. So, I figured it would make a better discussion topic instead.
My response to this question goes something like this:
By purpose, if you mean divine, then of course not, because we don't believe in the divine. If you mean responsibility, then yes. We don't need motivation to do the right thing. We don't have to have a carrot dangling in front of us. (And by carrot, you could interpret that to be heaven, spiritual gifts, blah, blah...)
Sometimes I get quite an ego and like to think that I have more ethics and morals in my little atheist pinky finger than most Christians do.
I don't have an ulterior motive to be friends with someone. My relationships aren't fake. If I don't like someone, I don't get close to them. I can be friends with someone without planning a sales pitch and hoping for the day they change to being just like me. I respect diversity. I'm friends with people because I like them and enjoy having them around me.
I don't need a reason to help someone. No crown, no streets of gold, no mansion... just knowing that I might have made someone else's day a little better. I don't expect recognition from a choir of angels for making a good decision. I make good decisions because I have a brain. I do the right thing because I give a shit.
I care about the world around me. I am not awaiting the glorious day of Mithras' return... I mean Jesus.... oops. I believe in the one planet that I share with billions of other people on it and I take some responsibility to make it a better place.
I don't need a reason to help someone. No crown, no streets of gold, no mansion... just knowing that I might have made someone else's day a little better. I don't expect recognition from a choir of angels for making a good decision. I make good decisions because I have a brain. I do the right thing because I give a shit. Religion does nothing to make the world peaceful. Religious sects of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc., each thinking they are the only one that is right and every one else should be eradicated from the planet, doesn't sound like a very good peacekeeping strategy to me. There is one planet... we all share it... we are all ruining it. The rest of the world needs to buck up, admit that they may not have all the answers, and start recycling!
And finally, to think that one has a specific "purpose" which is divine is a very egotistical thing to believe. What about the starving children in Africa? What's their purpose? Be born with aids and starve to death? Nice... Maybe you could take that purpose of a "higher calling" and do something intelligent with it, like find a way to end hunger and cure cancer. Forget preaching your bible crap... starving people will do whatever they must for food. If they don't mean it in their hearts when they prayed that sinner's prayer, just doing it for food, are they still saved? The bible I read says no, or maybe that's just my interpretation.
I've been there, thinking I had a higher calling. I devoted two years to ministry training and nothing else. I kept believing that God would have me doing something amazing to turn the world to Him. But here I am, 10 years later... working a job I hate to pay the bills -- because I chose not to go to an actual college and get a real degree -- raising a beautiful son, happily professing my atheism and living a life happier and more fulfilled than ever (despite the job). If I wouldn't have decided to take my life in my own hands and waited for that proverbial door to open, I'd still be going to the college-age Sunday school, waiting for my soul mate and believing that I was an ambassador to the world, all the while never leaving comforts of my church.
Comments
Atheists don't have a purpose. No one should. Each human being has as many purposes as he or she may elect or have opportunity to pursue.
A group of people may come to gether for a purpose, and pursue that purpose together for as long as seems good to them. Or they may be compelled to do so against their will.
The church told me my individual purposes were all crap compared to the greater purpose they wanted me to commit my time and resources to. I personally rejected that claim and here I am in the wide open spaces of volitional purposes.
So do atheists have a purpose. God no.
My decisions are both *more* difficult and *more* meaningful because I expend the energy to make them myself. It is not a character flaw that I choose to decide what is right based on reality, or as Bertrand Russell said "inspired by love and guided by knowledge". Any other course of action is inferior, or as I like to think of it "lacking in style".
"My relationships aren't fake." Damn straight. Thank you.
As for my purpose, I have many. One of them is to never waste another Sunday morning in church.
a few days ago. Christians believe
they must have a purpose. That purpose is to become a mental and
emotional slave to their church and
religion (making sure the church gets ten percent of their income
every week, of course) and base
almost everything they do on an ancient book that most Christians
can't even agree on.
Considering we don't ask to be born, why does there have to be
a purpose to our lives? What's
wrong with enjoying time with our
family and friends, performing acts
of kindness for others when we can,
and striving to do the best we can
with whatever career we've chosen?
Well, perhaps there is a purpose..
to avoid the talons of Christianity
or any other religion that exists
solely to control the lives of
as many people as it can.
Is our purpose to "praise" and "worship" this god? Is that why he made us, as some kind of adoring pet who licks his feet and wags our tails when we see him? Seems rather petty for some infinite being, doesn't it? If this god exists as they claim it does, all knowing, all powerful, etc, then why would he even give a rat's behind regarding our opinion of him? Do you care if the dust mites on your skin "worship" you?
Nature has given us purpose aplenty, our genes tell us to survive and reproduce, so that the genes are passed on. Everything else we do, from science to symphonies is in support of that. No deity needed.
All of us choose our own purpose. A religous person has simply decided to make religion his or her purpose.
I'd object to the putting of "Buddhism" in that group. Although all religion is incorrect in that there is no evidence to back them up, there are some religions that are quite liberal, and even some that, dare I say it, make the world an even better place (despite weakening rationality).
Most Buddhists have no problem with science. And, in fact, Buddha is not a God and believing in him won't get you to heaven. The things you do on earth influence whether you'll go to heaven or maybe go to hell (for a time...being able to be born again after being purged). Jainism preaches that every life (including animal and even plant life...they try to not kill plants if possible, but take ingredients that can grow back - as human hair does, without killing humans if it's cut) is sacred. They also have an idea called non-exclusivity which means that opinions vary, and one should never get so into dogma (even their own dogma!) that it makes you hate another group.
Besides the life-after-death stuff, there is indeed stuff that people can learn from SOME religions. It's mostly the Abrahamic ones that are ruining the world.
As I said, I still don't believe in any of them, but many of the followers of Eastern religions don't think that I'd go to hell, or should even be converted to their way of thinking. That's a far cry from what we're used to.
That said, this alleged "God" that presumably supplies "purpose", is, itself, either intended, or not intended. If the former, who or what "intended" its existence? If the latter - if "God" exists unintended - then according to the Theist's very premise, "God", like us, has "no purpose".
Surely then, unceasing reverence to an entity with no purpose cannot supply "purpose". Right?
Theists?
If so, why?
Since no one has elected me the spokesman for "most atheists," I for one would have to excuse myself from assuming to have an authoritative answer for all, some, or most atheists. I personally do not believe in life after death. The reason I do not believe in life after death is because there is no evidence of any such thing.
Do you think plants have life after death? Do you believe cats and dogs have a life after death? Are you of the opinion that the Great Apes have life after death? If not, why not?
Human beings are mammals that share approximately 98% of the same DNA as chimpanzees. No one that I know thinks chimps have an afterlife.
Do you believe in life before birth? It seems very likely to me that I will have a similar experience after my death that I had prior to my birth. Think about it.
However, if you have verifiable evidence that anything lives beyond the grave, please feel free to post it.
Do you have documented proof that LAD does not exist?
(By the way, the whole animal soul thing is not something that I'm not an expert at discussing, but I do believe they have some deep emotions as opposed to all instinct.)
Can you define, "entirely lacking in evidence"?
Disclaimer on spelling, please!
That OK with you?
If it's not OK with you that I remain a skeptic, could you please explain why my skepticism bothers you? I don't care you believe in ghosts, disembodied spirits, angels, demons, and a heavenly host of magical creatures. I, however, see no reason to believe in such things.
The balls in your court.
No laws of thermodynamics being violated here. Just the observable end of doing for an individual.
As pointed out to you, "near death" isn't dead. "Close" only counts in a game of horseshoes.
Nonetheless, if the "energy" that presumably makes up the personality(i.e..the "soul") exists independently of the physical brain, why then do people who suffer from comas, stroke, Alzheimer's, and other brain defective ailments, lose their personalities? Also, what about those who've been resuscitated after being clinically dead, but who have been deprived of oxygen for too long, and thus, they come back "brain dead"? As long as they can resuscitate the physical body - regardless of how long it takes - the "soul" shouldn't be effected.
What kind of proof would you like? Jesus to show you His wrists? God to take you to where He is and return you so that you can tell everyone what you saw? Documented cases of healings? How about documented proof of raising the dead to life? I could show you those things, but since you weren't there to see them, you wouldn't believe them, right?
Have you every seen the complete chemical process you just pulled from that website,in action? You have seen what you believe to be the end result, but have you seen such a process? My guess is no, yet you have FAITH that it is true, yes? You said these were Christian scientists who gathered this info and you seem to believe it, yet when the bible is presented as truth, you decline its authenticity, interesting.
Are not eye-witness accounts proof for all? Credible sources, huh? The bible has proven, over and over, to be an extremely accurate historical document, yet you chose to ignore it because it isn't in line with how you want things to be. I think's that a natural reaction. Why aren't bible witness's credible, to you?
Your quote below.
Are you claiming to have seen Jesus' wrists (and I don't mean your Latino gardener)? Are you claiming God "[took] you to where he is?" Are you claiming to have documented, credible evidence of miraculous healings and resurrections?
Jesus was crucified at the wrist and I don't have a gardner! :)
I make no claim, other than my belief in a document that reads true, and what I'VE seen.
But you still didn't answer my question, would you believe?
Your quote: Nonetheless, if the "energy" that presumably makes up the personality(i.e..the "soul") exists independently of the physical brain, why then do people who suffer from comas, stroke, Alzheimer's, and other brain defective ailments, lose their personalities?
If you lose a leg or hand, would you not be changed in the physical?
Why would the brain be different? Physical isn't spiritual or intellectual. Tissue damage is just that and will inhibit the ability to do physical things. Besides,Who says that when someone is quote "brain dead" that they are or aren't? Giving the thought process of many on this site; How do you ultimately prove someone is brain dead if you can't see it?
And if you can, explain how some of those folks, come back?
The point is is that we have a limited understanding of how the brain works. Besides, maybe the brain is the conduit to the soul. Any takers on proving it isn't?
Are not eye-witness accounts proof for all? Credible sources, huh?
Actually, not-so-much; as has been proven time and time again, in classes at police academies.
The bible has proven, over and over, to be an extremely accurate historical document
Did you cut and paste this line, because we've heard this exact same line, countless times from xtians.
Of course, when asked to prove that the bible is a reliable historical document, xtians have little to offer as proof in that regard.
Sure, as we all know, many of the places it speaks about actually existed, but so what. I can say the same for many fictional stories of new or old.
Show me outside the bible record, that Moses actually existed and helped all those Jews escape Egypt and wonder around aimlessly for 40 years. Where in secular history do we find the events of the Red Sea opening up to allow all those Jews to pass?
Can you even buy into such a story as being anything more than pure fiction?
Of course, Stronger-Now would be more than pleased to tell you about how god forcibly hardened pharaoh's heart, so there goes the free will idea out the proverbial window.
Show me outside the bible that your jesus character actually lived and performed all those interesting magic tricks he is famed with.
Show me the historical records that clearly show that 500 dead zombies crawled out of their graves. Very odd that the bible is the sole record of such a monumental event, don't you think?
Explain to me why Paul knew next to nothing about an earthly jesus.
Explain to me why the authors of the NT failed to write anything about your jesus from the time of his birth until he was 12 years old, then again remained silent until he was about 30.
Gee, for the most important 'man' of all time, your bible sure stays mighty quiet about the majority of his earthly life.
Where are the memorial shrines to jesus, that humans would have naturally made, after jesus left this planet? Hey, followers tend to do such things for their leaders and yet, no one did that for jesus...why?
If you weren't so caught up in the fantasy of a god, and his empty promises of an eternal afterlife, then you might see how ridiculous your entire bible piece-mealed story book really is.
Instead of just believing that everything in your bible is automatically true, why not try to verify what it says, just as we did?
You might be hugely surprised by what you find !!
ATF (Who has gotten so weary of hearing about how accurate the history of the bible is, when it's nothing but pure fictional claptrap)
Hmm?
Christian apologist, disingenuous is thy name.
Murgman responds...If you lose a leg or hand, would you not be changed in the physical?
Um, yes of course, changed physically. On the other hand, the amputee's cognative skills, reasoning skills, and their personality are not altered one iota - except for perhaps some psychological issues over the injury itself, such as depression.
You: Why would the brain be different[than a missing leg, or hand]?
You are arguing my point for me. Again, yes, a missing appendix, big toe, or "leg" will alter the individual physically, but it will not alter a person's cognative skills, or personality. However, a missing piece of "brain" will alter the cognative skills and personality, depending on which lobe of the brain is missing or extracted. The same is true if the brain becomes injured, as in amnesia, specifically of the organic causes.
This all seemingly contradicts the premise that a "soul" - which is essentially an individual's personality - can exist and operate independently of a brain. It's the notion that a "mind" can exist without a brain. I argue it cannot, and there is not one scrap of objective evidence that it can. Although, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. That's what "faith" is for, I suppose.
You: Who says that when someone is quote "brain dead" that they are or aren't?
Who says? The medical community says.
You: How do you ultimately prove someone is brain dead if you can't see it?
I don't know exactly what you mean by "ultimately prove", and I won't get into the legalities of it, but where CPR is concerned, there is only a small window of time to restart bloodflow before the brain tissue dies, which subsequently causes permanent, irreversible brain damage.
"The extent and effect of brain injury is often assessed by the use of neurological examination, neuroimaging, and neuropsychological assessment." (ref: Wikipedia)
You: The point is is that we have a limited understanding of how the brain works.
Agreed, we don't know everything about the brain. Therefore, when homosapians expire, their personality magically floats out of their physical body, and its destination is one of either a perpetual state of heavenly bliss in the clouds, or a perpetual existence of torment somewhere in the depths of the center of the earth. This, of course, is based on if the individual held the correct religious beliefs when alive. Yes, uh huh....I see it now.[/extreme sarcasm]
See non-sequitur.
You: Besides, maybe the brain is the conduit to the soul.
But why a "brain" at all? God's "mind" can presumably exist and function without a "conduit" or interface. Why do we need physical brains, if there is mind/body duality?
You: Any takers on proving it[the brain] isn't[a conduit to the soul]?
Any takers on proving that shape-shifting Mole-men don't live inside Pluto, and from there they control the actions of human kind via their joysticks?
Murgman...Why aren't bible witness's credible, to you?
Likely for the same reasons that the Book of Mormon witnesses aren't credible to you.
Murgam...The bible has proven, over and over, to be an extremely accurate historical document
As so, the biographical literature on the life of George Washington. Yet, I'll wager that very few grown, healthy-minded adults, if any, believe that he threw a silver dollar across the Potomac River, which is over a mile wide at its narrowest points.
In other words, the redactors of said literature likely had an agenda to embroider the story, and being so, they did this by exaggerating George Washington's physical strength.
Could it be that the redactors of the bible had an similar agenda, and thus, made simlar exaggerations? Hmmmm...?
Braindead is something you can see, via machines - zero activity in the brain.
And people coming back to life? There's nothing mystical or magical about it. It's simply zapping people with electricity or otherwise getting their organs pumping again. Suspiciously mechanistic, and not spiritual at all.
If modern medicine has taught us anything, it's that the human body is an organic machine. Boom's made a good point about the brain. Things we consider spiritual (emotions, personality, conscience) are ultimately functions of the brain. The mind, the consciousness, so far, has not been proven to exist apart from the brain. If it did, just like Boom said, then damage to the brain would not change ones personality, and problems with the brain would not cause an excess of schizophrenia/visions/hallucinations.
Theists go on and on about how amazing the human body is and how its complexity is proof of intelligent design. Honestly, I'd be more impressed with a body that allows us everything we can do without all the complicated interconnecting parts.
Christians always go on and on about what a great job their god has done with creation, while I wonder why God didn't do a better job with things. I suppose I just expect more of their god than they do.
My research in to NDEs led me to a chapter of IANDS (International Association for Near-Death Studies) in Columbus Ohio. The woman, Nancy Clark, who facilitates the chapter, had an unusual Near Death Like Experience, where, while, she was giving an eulogy, at a friends funeral, she simultaneously had an outer body episode, that became a detailed and profound experience. She wasn't sick or near death. What's interesting is, she didn't collapse or show any signs of dementia, hallucinations, schizophrenia, she continued to deliver her eulogy, while she had lengthy discussions, with loving beings of light, a life review, and complete knowledge, accompanied with being one with the universe.
Aside from the whole matter being a hoax or a persons way of getting attention -- something I think is entirely possible, but I find remote, in this case -- we would have to speculate that either the experience and her conscious reading of the eulogy all took place in the context of her brain or, somehow, on some level, something that was still "her" was able to have a separate experience at the same time she was giving the eulogy. What I find intriguing is all her faculties -- while giving the eulogy -- were not affected. She didn't have a seizure, accompanied with convulsions and none of the plausible scientific hypothesis such as anoxia, anesthesia, adrenalin, drugs, etc, seem to apply. Does this prove that consciousness can live outside the parameters of the physical brain -- no, but it is something to ponder. Nancy Clark is conducting a study on this type of experience, and is collecting information from people who have had similar experiences. Maybe on some infinitesimal, quantum level, information is stored and can exist in a separate reality or perhaps duel realities -- I don't know.
Anyway I would like to know what others think. You too Boomslang, I've come a long way, and I respect you -- don't hold back.
--S.
Why is it ridicules to think that man-made machines are unable to measure every function of the human body? That's faith!
Not every documented case of folks coming back from clinical death have been zapped, please explain.
Boom and Phil,
Are you saying that all emotion, etc. is physical? What would be the purpose? Please don't use the old arguement that they are needed to perpetuate the species because if there is nothing after death, why would it matter? Why would you care if your children lived after you?
Boom,
Your quotes:
But why a "brain" at all? God's "mind" can presumably exist and function without a "conduit" or interface. Why do we need physical brains, if there is mind/body duality?
THe body has several organs that perform dual functions, why not a mind/body function for the brain?
Any takers on proving that shape-shifting Mole-men don't live inside Pluto, and from there they control the actions of human kind via their joysticks?
You didn't answer my question, you just threw out a red herring.
Scon,
I am very sorry for your loss, there is nothing worse than the loss of a child. God knows how that feels.
I think it is good you seek answers, God honors that. I also think that you have received the answer you seek, but haven't pursued it, why?
Coming to this venue just feeds your doubt, why not go to places that feed your hope? God has answered, but you need to pursue it. You are the reason God sent me here. It was no accident I found this site.
WebDave,
Again, murgman: What is your point? Why do you care about anyone's skepticism regarding your extraordinary claims and their request for credible evidence?
Hmm?
I think it fascinating that folks live an absolutely hopeless life regarding LAD. I think it interesting that people ignore their hearts to feed their intellect.
I don't beleive, not for a second, that everyone of you don't contemplate your existance, God, is this all there is, things you really can't explain, etc...on some level.
I want to talk about some of the things Tooth touched on, but I don't have time now.
...'cause he's a bad mutha-hushyomouth!
O.k. not really. But thanks for the invite.
@murgman,
You seem to think that shifting the burden of proof makes a compelling argument for "christian spirituality". But you don't seem to think it's a good argument for the "asatru spirituality". Why?
@sconner
Hmm. Seems similar to a lucid dream. Interesting.
Hopeless life? Huh? What is hopeless about a mature comprehension of reality? That's not hopeless, that's being a grown-up.
Again, I don't care if you find comfort in wishfully thinking there is LAD or not. That's your affair. My point in questioning you is to find out why others' opinions in this matter are of such momentous concern to you? I challenge you to be forthright and honest as to your real intention in aggressively beating your drum.
If I disbelieve in life after death and later find I was wrong, what do you think will happen to me, Murgan? Do you think I'll burn in hell for all eternity for my skepticism? What possible difference would it make whether I have the correct opinions about LAD or not? Only Christians and Muslims think there are consequences to having an incorrect opinion on these matters.
I think you're a Christian who is terrified of death and who thinks pandering to that fear, which you imagine is shared by everyone, is a powerful evangelical hook for gaining converts. I only think this about you because this site is entitled ExChristian.Net and the article is entitled, "Atheists... do you have a purpose?" In that context it seems likely that your compulsion to go on and on and on about LAD is motivated by a desire to be a successful amateur Christian apologist. Correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment of your motive or come clean and admit that you are trying to evangelize using this approach.
That's not much to ask, is it? A little transparent honesty? Last I checked, subterfuge is not listed as a Christian virtue.
I was thinking after I wrote the original post. We do have a purpose!
To survive. Spread our seed, raise the babies and ensure the survival of our species... just like every animal on planet earth. Every other living organism lives it's life then dies... that's it. What makes us so special? I used to have a hard time recognizing that my consciousness would end after I'm dead and I still do sometimes, but I also understand (thanks to my husband who is studying bio-chemistry) that everything we experience ad feel is a combination of chemicals and electricity running ramped through our brains.
Now, like I said, I'm not educated in the field. High school diploma and 2 years of master's commission, so if I am not correct, please share and provide links to some evidence.
Thanks!
Wow! Must of struck a nerve. You asked and I answered. I don't feel like I have to defend anything, I'm just curious why folks ignore there hearts. You have, no doubt, had countless people out here to debate your stance and my experience shows me that no one will convince anyone of anything through bias debate.
Fear of death? We will all go through the process and I made my peace with that a long time ago. In fact, most Christians I know, embrace the eventual death of this body and the restoration to God that He has promised.
If Christians are right, heaven is an awesome place to go, yes?
I think your skepticism is more cynisim than not. If it really doesn't matter to you one way or the other, why not chose God's way, just to make sure you aren't wrong? That seems more logical and pragmatic to me.
Listen, most/all of the folks out here seem to be bright and I'm not trying to shove anything off on you, but I would be remiss, just as you feel you would be, if I didn't bring up other options. If you are to have a change of heart, it will be from God, not me.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Once again, we see in people who suffer physical brain injuries that they have a decline in emotions, or in severe cases, none at all. In sociopathic people(people who are essentially amoral), we see that genetics plays a role, as well as biological factors.
My contention, again, is thus: If human beings are governed by some NON-physical "entity", i.e...a "soul", then the above mentioned senarios, and many like them, would never/should never be an issue.
Murgman...What would be the purpose[if emotions where generated by the physical]? Please don't use the old arguement that they are needed to perpetuate the species because if there is nothing after death, why would it matter?
What would it matter? Because LIFE matters. You are simply projecting your misguided, and frankly, quite silly premise that life is meaningless unless it lasts forever, into the discussion. We have emotions because that's how we evolved as a species. The lower apes have "emotions" too. Hell, the neighborhood stray cat has "emotions". Are those emotions simply instinctual?.. or are those emotions, like homosapiens, "spiritual", as you unceasingly suggest? Watch for the double-standard.
Murgman...Why would you care if your children lived after you?
Maybe Sconner is more qualified to answer this question. For now, I'll hypotheize that life is special, and since we love our kids, we want them to experience as much life as they can. 'Sound unreasonable?
Murgman...THe body has several organs that perform dual functions, why not a mind/body function for the brain?
You keep missing or circumventing my point. You are equating a supposed immaterial, nonphysical entity, to the material, physical, tangible organs of the body.
Look, if this "soul" thingy exists and operates independently of the body, then why the need for a physical interface? If physical organs function in tandem with nonphysical entities, as you hypothesize, then if someone suffers a stroke, why doesn't the "soul" simply start using the liver or elbow as its "conduit"? In other words, why the specific need FOR A BRAIN?? Arrgg! If you want to accept your hypothesis on "faith", then fine, just say so. However, your attempts at trying to substantiate your hypothesis with "logic" are severing lacking, IMO. I don't know how others feel, but it's not convincing me in the least. You are arguing in circles.
Murgman...You didn't answer my question, you just threw out a red herring.
You're right, I didn't answer your question, and the reason I didn't, is because its premise is non-sequitur. No, I cannot disprove your hypothesis, nor can you disprove mine. That however, does not make either hypothesis true by default. To attempt such is the fallacy of negative proof. My "red herring" was to illustrate a point, which evidently parted your hair down the middle.
Murgman...I don't beleive, not for a second, that everyone of you don't contemplate your existance, God, is this all there is, things you really can't explain, etc...on some level.
And you're right, we all contemplate those things. However, just because we must plead ignorance in certain areas of epistemology, biology, etc., doesn't mean that we must accept the "GOD DID IT!!!!" hypothesis that Theists serve up here daily. 'Kay?
Murgman...I'm just curious why folks ignore [their] hearts.
Because "hearts" pump blood; they don't think.
Murgman...If Christians are right, heaven is an awesome place to go, yes?
"If" Muslims are right, Jahannum is a shitty place to go, yes?
Let's see...
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate. The Holy Qu'ran 9:73
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. The Holy Qu'ran 98:1-8"
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!' The Holy Qu'ran 22:19-22:23"
A nerve? Not really, you're merely irritating. Why do I find you irritating? Because you are not here to discuss anything, learn anything, or debate anything. In fact, it is only now that you are admitting that you are here to preach, which shows that you were disingenuous as to your intent.
Now that everyone knows you are a Christian apologist here to preach, the discussion can be open and honest.
Oh, and just to be pedantic, it's "THEIRS" not THERES.
Now you are psychologist as well? Hmm.
"If it really doesn't matter to you one way or the other, why not..."
It doesn't matter to me what YOU believe. I most certainly am not going to waste any more of my life serving an imaginary deity that lives nowhere outside the human imagination. Besides, Allah's eternal torture chamber of fire is purportedly much worse than the Christian hell. Why don't you convert to Islam just to be sure you aren't wrong?
Myths are for kids, silly murgman.
Joe B, nice point about purposes verses a single purpose.
Boomslang, I don't know why you bother arguing with religious zealots. But I'm glad you do because your posts are interesting and informative.
Murgman, you mean well, don't you? And your "truth" just can't be wrong, can it?
Verily, I say unto thee: Our souls emanate from our minds and our minds emanate from our bodies. But just as our minds cannot transcend the destruction of our bodies, neither can our souls transcend the destruction of our minds.
All our thoughts and all our emotions and all our beliefs are but chemical/physical reactions. There is no me after death...no you either.
Fight it, Murgman, fight it, religious evangelicals, if fighting the biological truths of our existence makes life easier for you and more pleasant for those within your sphere of influence.
But here is the thing, Murgman and the rest of you evangelicals, I would be astounded if your witnessing somehow clouded our eyes and shrouded our minds.
Our beliefs are not a matter of our wills! Our beliefs are a matter of making the best sense we can of the best evidence we have.
I feel bad for you, Murgman and others, that your emotional self has been trapped by religious nonsense. But all people like Dave, the webmaster, and others who post here can do is present you with the real life-on-earth facts as we humans have thus far discovered them.
God knows how that feels.
I think it is good you seek answers, God honors that. I also think that you have received the answer you seek, but haven't pursued it, why?
Coming to this venue just feeds your doubt, why not go to places that feed your hope? God has answered, but you need to pursue it. You are the reason God sent me here. It was no accident I found this site.
Listen here you stupid motherfucker, you and your proselytizing, platitude-slinging, ilk is exactly why I'm here. You are nothing but a delusional fuck-tard that can offer me nothing but bullshit fairy tales. You can take your superstitious bullshit and your imaginary sky-boss and shove it down your fucking throat, you cock-sucking asshole.
And as for god knowing how it feels -- I'm not the deranged lunatic, who sent my child to be tortured and sacrificed like your dumb-ass god did. There is nothing you can say or do that can help me and in fact, what you have just said to me only bolsters my opinion of you as being a dumb-fuck. asshole who belongs to an equally ridiculous, dumb-fuck christian club.
If god is the one who sent you here, then he's doing a colossal, shitty job, by using the likes of you. You have zero to offer me and you are a delusional dick-head. Go fuck yourself.
--S.
--S.
No. Too many wars, too much infighting there for me, thanks.
Your quote: If physical organs function in tandem with nonphysical entities, as you hypothesize, then if someone suffers a stroke, why doesn't the "soul" simply start using the liver or elbow as its "conduit"? In other words, why the specific need FOR A BRAIN?? Arrgg! If you want to accept your hypothesis on "faith", then fine, just say so.
I didn't say organs..I said organ, brain. Is not the brain, and by your own admission, a very complex and unknow enity? Liver and elbow have nothing to do with it, you are red herring it again. :)
WebDave and Boom: It was obvious from my first post that I wasn't in line with your thinking and yet you think my intent was to be subversive or hide my intent...Did I need to explain that I was a Christian? I have not asked one of you to change your way. On the other hand, many of you have given me various titles :) and think that following Jesus is silly. So who is the one not willing to discuss their position?
Webdave,
Your quote: If I disbelieve in life after death and later find I was wrong... What if you do?
Resonate,
Your quote: All our thoughts and all our emotions and all our beliefs are but chemical/physical reactions. There is no me after death...no you either.
How do you know that? How can over 5 billion people on this planet be wrong and you be right?
Your quote: Our souls emanate from our minds and our minds emanate from our bodies. But just as our minds cannot transcend the destruction of our bodies, neither can our souls transcend the destruction of our minds.
Can you prove that? What if you're wrong here, too?
Your quote: I feel bad for you, Murgman and others, that your emotional self has been trapped by religious nonsense. But all people like Dave, the webmaster, and others who post here can do is present you with the real life-on-earth facts as we humans have thus far discovered them.
Don't feel bad for us, we have hope...you apparently don't any of that. I think your last statement very interesting. ..facts as we humans have thus far discovered. So there may be things about us that we haven't discovered? why do you think that humans are it? That we are top of the line?
I won't post again. Not because of how you reacted, but it is pointless. Do you think you are the only one with unbearable grief? If going off on me helps you deal with that, okay, go for it.
I hope you keep your thought of LAD alive and find the right answer.
Yes. I believe Jesus is the only way to get through this life and into the next one. We WILL stand before Him and give an account, like it or not.
Good luck all and thanks for allowing me to interact with you.
Murg,
Most if not all of us where once sold out, born again, blood bought, evangelical, fundamental, preaching, witnessing Christians. Murg, I ran a Christian website! Can you believe it? We have considered our positions and changed our minds. Please list the works of literature that you have examined that contradict your current worldview. My guess is that you've read not one.
Let's deal with something much more to the point. As S so correctly noted you are dillusional. We've been kind to you. No souls to be won here, son. So, toddle along now.
Sconner, stick around if you can. We--both this community and humankind--need you. We need you to remind us why we should divert our energy and intelligence and wealth away from how to hurt and kill people into seeking and discovering cures for illnesses like leukemia.
If we Americans were not using our resources to maintain and enlarge the world's largest military/industrial complex, humanity could be a lot farther toward being able to cure such diseases.
Yes, obstinate follower of christ, I'm fully aware of what you said. Here's the quote:
THe body has several organs that perform dual functions, why not a mind/body function for the brain?[bold added]
Try and follow closely---I'm saying that since you made a reference to other "organs"(plural) in comparison to the "brain", I simply elaborated based on your analogy. 'Get it? Again, while other organs may serve a dual purpose, if so, it is in a PHYSICAL application. It is you who is asserting that the "brain" has a different kind of "dual functionality", that being that it is a "conduit"(your word) to a meta-physical, supernatural realm.
Regarding that unporven hypothesis, please feel free to review all of my previous refutations of that premise, or then again, feel free to keep right on ignoring them.
You continue...Is not the brain, and by your own admission, a very complex and unknow enity?
No, in fact, I never refered to it as such. Complex? Yes. Do we know everything about it's function? No. We do know, however, that when the brain is physically altered - either by disease or trauma - that the "personality" is effected, and thus, for the bazillionth time, that points to the "mind" being dependent on a healthy, functioning brain.
You....However, Liver and elbow have nothing to do with it, you are red herring it again. :)
No---me pointing out the fallacy/fallacies of your fantastic claims again.
You...So who is the one not willing to discuss their position?
Excuse me, but who here has attempted to avoid discussing the immediate subject at hand with you? If anything, it seems to me that you are the one picking and choosing to answer what you think you can, and ignoring the rest.
Nonetheless, most of us have been on both sides of this issue. If we're at a stalemate, perhaps you can either offer some objective evidence for your fantastic, mystical claims, or if not, you can be on your merry way?
I won't post again.
Good, but I'll belive it when I see it.
Not because of how you reacted, but it is pointless.
Isn't it curiously, absurd, you use your abyss of a cranium to rationalize, that I was the reason god sent you here but now, it's "pointless", painting you and your god as entirely incompetent.
Do you think you are the only one with unbearable grief?
Are you kidding me? You just keep digging your grave deeper and deeper -- what an asshole question. Is god the one helping you with your words? Because, if so, both of you are cosmic fuck-tards, with zero ability of compassion or saying the right thing.
If going off on me helps you deal with that, okay, go for it.
Spare me your Junior, psychological, analysis. It's easy for you to pull bullshit out of your shit-hole, isn't it? Your inept and fully erroneous, rationalization, that me going off on you, is helping, is wholly absurd; It doesn't help me with anything. What it does, is, thoroughly, cement my view, that holier than thou, brain-dead christian drones are completely, delusional and you and your little christian cult have zero authority and can't help me and in fact, have made it even worse. You're a delusional piece of shit, who should keep his, fucking, mouth shut, especially, of things you have no idea about.
I hope you keep your thought of LAD alive and find the right answer.
I don't give a shit what you hope. And as far as NDEs are concerned, the majority believe that dogma and religion are not important. The accounts of the NDEs say, we are here to grow in love and everyone is saved, not just the arrogant, christians, who think they got it all figured out.
Yes. I believe Jesus is the only way to get through this life and into the next one. We WILL stand before Him and give an account, like it or not.
whoopie-d-doo, again, you only bolster, my view of you -- a psychotic, asshole, babbling, that you and your specific christian ilk, got your ticket to funky-town, because you do the right things, were born into the correct religion and think the right way; while the rest of humanity is damned, to be tortured, in the flames of hell, for an eternity. It looks like your imaginary sky-genie sent a pathetic, piece of shit -- completely, incompetent of swaying my opinion, only proving you are delusional, asshole who thinks I'm the reason god sent you here. Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
Good luck all and thanks for allowing me to interact with you.
I don't know about everyone else but murgman's interaction with me, left me soiled, as if he mentally raped and abused me. Murgman, you are a vile, deer-in-the-headlight, deluded christian, whose proselytizing and existence is nothing but the vomit you spew.
--S.
Murgman said that heaven will be a wonderful place if Christianity is right - but for how long? Humans thrive on challenges and discovering new things. A heaven which is one long praise party I would think would get a bit boring after the first few thousand years or so - and I used to say that as a Christian too. And I'm not sure that staying for eternity in a mile-high cube filled with gold will actually be that great anyway. I like getting out into the countryside!
All the Christians do is defer their purpose to rely on a god. They have no idea what their purpose in heaven will be, but it gives them a purpose on earth - namely to try to persuade as many people as possible to believe that they are right.
For whatever reason I have emotions and I care for my family, those who I have brought into this world. My purpose now is to try to make sure that they have as secure a present and future that I can provide, both materially and emotionally.
"Most people can't bear to sit in church for an hour on Sundays. How are they supposed to live somewhere very similar to it for eternity?" -- Mark Twain
--S.
If we Americans were not using our resources to maintain and enlarge the world's largest military/industrial complex, humanity could be a lot farther toward being able to cure such diseases.
Thanks resonate11; I completely concur.
--S.
To a certain extent. I would like to know what your definition of a lucid dream is? My definition is finding yourself entranced in a detailed daydream, so immersed that the reality around you is not apparent. Nancy would not consider what happened to her a daydream. First this was a life-altering experience -- to my knowledge lucid dreams are not capable of that and in her experience she was completely aware of her surroundings and what she was doing in both realities. I would also have to surmise that when a person awakes from their lucid dream, they come to the realization that it was only a dream. Nancy asserts that the duel realities she experienced were absolutely real. I don't know, this is an interesting experience to ponder. I really do not think it was a lucid dream. I sometimes wonder if it was some kind of mild seizure -- a seizure that causes you to have an experience like she had without compromising herself at the funeral by having convulsions or at the very least stammering or forgetting what she was saying -- which BTW, she did not do.
--S.
--S.
BTW, I really want your input boomslang, what do you think?
Peace and more,
--S.
You mentioned you're holding out in the hopes of there being a post-mortem existence(LAD). Considering your personal circumstances(tragic loss) - and considering the mutual respect we have for each other now(thanks for that) - I wouldn't want to jeapordize the latter, nor come across like I'm getting my jollies trying to refute the latest hypothesis you offer.
In a nutshell - and since you asked - I'll say this much: I don't believe perception, or "experience", is possible without a healthy, functioning brain. Another contributing factor for my skepticism of LAD is the whole notion of a perpetual existence, or "eternal life". This is regardless of the where, how, or why of it. Aside from "experience" and "existence" both being temporal concepts, infinite life seems self-defeating, IMO.
'Best, boom'
Well, Sconner's reference to NDE's and this women, Nancy Clark, got me curious enough to go check out her story.
Anyone interested in learning more about Nancy can find information at the following:
http://www.freewebs.com/nancy-clark/
http://www.freewebs.com/nancy-clark/index.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/nancy-clark/hearhisvoice.htm
Here is part of her story regarding her NDE experiences in life.
Our real "home" that many near-death and near-death-like experiencers report, is a realm where the Light and unconditional love surpasses any imagined ideas of paradise. Those who went "home" temporarily, came back to tell the rest of us some astonishing stories of their journey home. Let's take a look at what Nancy Clark tells us about the journey she took twice.
A pivotal moment occurred during the birth of Nancy's first child in the early 60's when she was diagnosed with having toxemia of pregnancy, a potentially life-threatening medical condition marked by extremely high blood pressure, edema, convulsions and death. Nancy died during childbirth. During those moments she had a near-death experience. Her spirit lifted out of her body and from ceiling level, she watched the frantic medical team as they tried to bring her back to life. She travelled through a dark void, experienced tremendous unearthly peace and she saw the Light of unconditional love. She wanted to remain "home," with the Light, but it wasn't her time. Disappointed, she chose to return back to life. Nancy recovered in the morgue!
Later while giving a eulogy for her dead friend.....
Through some unexplainable enhanced perception, Nancy "saw" her deceased friend's spirit standing with her at the podium as she began speaking the eulogy. She then experienced an out-of-body episode and encountered a Being of Light she perceived as God. "My eyes were beholding the luminous energy of the Light of God and my entire being pulsated with ecstasy as I acknowledged the presence of God. I recognized the Light again and I was overjoyed beyond words."
Nancy merged into oneness with the Light and she was flooded with an outpouring of pure, Divine unconditional love beyond human comprehension. Infinite and perfect love was being infused into her being so awesome that it still brings tears to Nancy's eyes whenever she tries to speak of this ineffable part of her journey "home" again. Nancy says, "Every nook and cranny of my being was bombarded with what seemed to be a nuclear explosion of unconditional love."
-----
Of course, she has a few books she would like to SELL you, so she can help you to discover "god's unconditional love", for yourself.
Sorry Sconner ole buddy, but Nancy here doesn't impress me and I don't see anything she has to offer that would make me do back-flips and change my opinion about NDE's not being a pathway to a visit with god, or any other dimension/realm etc..
ATF (Who requires far more proof than hearsay stories, especially from those who want to sell me their books)