I once was a born-again Christian…
…but I’m not any more.
Every once in a while I get an email or a comment accusing me of being a liar, saying it’s impossible for me to once have been a “real” Christian and now to be an atheist. Of course, the people who are so sure of my history have never met me and certainly didn’t know me in my past life as a Christian. Even so, their assuredness that what I’ve said cannot possibly be true always makes me think.
Reading Infidel, I’ve been made acutely aware that Muslims don’t have this problem of understanding. They are quite certain that people of their faith can fall away, and therefore have a solution to stop the apostasy from spreading: kill the infidels. Hmm. It might be the only sure-fire way to control the flock.
I just finished reading an article from Psychology Today, called An Atheist in the Pulpit, by Bruce Grierson. In the article, Grierson interviews several ministers who have lost their faith for a wide range of reasons. Worth reading if you’re interested in finding out how and why this can happen and, perhaps, how you can be an influence for reason and sanity among religious family and friends. It will definitely give you insight into the struggles experienced by those who awake one day to find that their faith no longer makes sense to them.
Here’s part of my story, and some of my thoughts on this topic:
It was a very strange day for me the first time someone asked me “Are you a Christian,” and my answer was, “No.” I’d spent all of my life up to that point — over 30 years — proclaiming to be a Christian. First I was a Catholic, a Christian by tradition and baptism; then I was born again.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
On December 24, 1971 in a middle pew on the right-hand side of the sanctuary in Calvary Baptist Church on Jayne Boulevard in Port Jefferson Station, New York, six months after I stopped believing in Santa Claus, I accepted Jesus as my personal savior. I was 9 years old.
Jesus loved us, the pastor said, and gave his life freely to save us from sin and hell. Wouldn’t anyone like to accept Jesus tonight, this holy night of Jesus’ birth? “If you would, get up out of your seat and come down to the altar, and pray with me now.”
I didn’t get up. I sat quietly in my seat as a few adults walked up to the front of the church to be saved. But when Pastor F—- had the new converts repeat the sinner’s prayer, I closed my eyes and said the words silently in my heart.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
About twenty years later, I stopped rationally believing that Jesus was raised from the dead. But I still believed it emotionally.
I told myself I was a Christian because nowhere does the Bible say you have to believe in your head to be saved. For years after I stopped thinking that the virgin birth and the resurrection were real, I still felt like the stories were true. Cognitive dissonance? Sure, and I was definitely aware of it. But I told people that I was a Christian, and by doing so, I was “confessing with my mouth.”
Eventually my feelings caught up with my thinking and I realized I no longer believed, not with my head or with my heart. It wasn’t until someone asked me, however, that it hit me how much I’d changed. I could no longer honestly call myself a Christian.
Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways.
There’s a reason that many Christians can’t fathom that there’s really such a thing as an ex-Christian. That’s because the born-again experience is supposed to be a magical occurrence where your spirit is literally changed by a supernatural touch from God. It is difficult to fathom not being a Christian any more if you don’t view becoming a Christian as a psychological change but as a spiritual birth. How does one become un-born?
I know that many Christians are unable or unwilling to contemplate that someone can have had the same experiences they’ve had and then turn away from it all. It’s a scary idea. It means they might be wrong. It means that they can’t say, “If you only felt what I’ve felt and lived what I’ve lived you’d turn your life over to God forever.”
Some of us have had those feelings and have lived that life. Some of us have read the Bible cover to cover with an open heart, seeking for truth. Some of us have been Christians, and we’re still not buying it. I know I can explain this until I’m blue in the face, and few Christians will understand or believe me. They’ll say my heart is hard or I’m not spiritually open. I hope, though, that a few will find food for thought in my words.
I Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
I no longer need to believe in a supernatural God, a virgin-born savior, a resurrected Lord to validate my journey or to give meaning to my life. Everything that happened to me when I was a Christian was real. My born-again experience was as serious, life-changing, numinous, and yes, real, as that of any person on this earth. (And you doubters can ask my mother if you don’t believe me.) It just wasn’t caused by God. It was caused by my own thoughts and emotions and by the communal ecstasy that is present in many evangelical Christian church services. I now interpret my past through the lens of the natural world and the human condition.
Does this mean my experiences were worthless or fake? Far from it. Although I no longer believe in the tenets of my former faith, the fact that I went on this journey, searching for truth and fulfillment, says something important about the state of my heart. A change in explanation — from the supernatural to the natural — in no way reduces or diminishes the value or reality of my experiences, but rather enlarges them and gives them meaning that transcends doctrine, dogma, or ideology.
http://skepchick.org/blog/?p=828
NOTE: This post and associated comments were moved from the articles section of the Exchristian.Net blog on February 12, sans the spamming/trolling/spoofing comments.
Comments
Nobody who is still a believer gets it. And it scares them - that's why they have to deny that our born-again experiences ever happened in the first place.
1934 and my parents were too busy trying to get food on the table to worry about why
an all powerful god completely
forgot about our welfare. I was never dragged to church except for a brief stint in
Sunday school which bored the bejabbers out of me.
I was allowed to run free on sundays and do my own thing.
Like I said I was sooo lucky not have had all that dangerous brainwashing happen to me.
Other than my infidel-like parents, I really don't know who to thank for my deliverance...maybe Zeus.
Aspentroll, Like you, I was also born in 1934, and since my mother had been raised Catholic and my father was non churched, they agreed I could choose my own god, or none...Thank god, I chose none!
Sunday school which bored the bejabbers out of me
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Aspentroll,
I can't recall anything about going to church that I didn't find painfully BORING.
At least as an adult, the boring factor was the primary factor I had to contend with.
However, as a boy, not only did I have to contend with the boredom, but we were forced to go to religion classes, where we were 'appropriately' brainwashed; followed by exams on the effectiveness of the brainwashing.
Even as a grade school boy, I already understood that my grades in the public schools I attended, were what really counted in life and that the only reason I needed to get passing grades in church was to keep my parents from getting P-O'd at me.
I can still recall one time where I had a failing grade on a school test and Dad was angry about it. Looking to find anyway to appease him, I quickly pointed out to him that I had gotten an 'A' on some religion exam the previous weekend.
I think this incident was one of the first that opened my eye's up to what was important in life, as Dad made it clear that day, that school grades were far more important in life than church grades. While he expected me to pass the church exams, it was clear to me that he didn't care one iota whether I got C's or A's on such church exams.
I often wondered after this point in time, why he was so insistent on my attending church, if he felt the exams had no great importance to my life.
Needless to say, he didn't balk very much when I announced in my high school years that I wasn't going to attend church anymore, except on days like xmas/easter.
What I never could fathom was how others could feel all excited about being in church, while I had spent most of my time there, keeping a close eye on the clock; which I swear at times stopped stone cold, like the sun this god made stand still in the bible.
In fact, the only miracle as a boy that I ever was a witness to, was god stopping that darn clock on me when I had better things to be doing with my time.
It felt like god was punishing me with the trick of the frozen clock, just for wanting to do other things that kids prefer to do with their free time from public school days.
ATF (Who's church boredom problem, was only exceeded by the pain of kneeling for long periods of time)
Jesus said, "Call no man fool" so go f&%k yourself.
"The Fool has said there is no God."
-----
Jamie,
That is some fundie blog site (http://jamiesteele.blogspot.com/) you have put up to support your grand god delusion.
I think we should all take note of your "My Favorite Preachers" list, that you have posted, just so we can see how many of them make the news here at our site, in the future.
If I said to you that my gardening book says, "The fool hath said there are no garden pixies", then would that make you a fool?
How about if I said this, "The fool hath said there is no Allah"?
What about if we instead inserted Thor, Zeus, Buddah, Neptune etc., into that phrase of yours?
On the flip side of your argument here, one has to be a 'fool' to believe in something that has zero evidence for it's existence, which I'm sure you can easily agee with when it comes to the many OTHER gods that you so easily dismiss, without 'knowing' them like you do your own xtian god.
Now, if you and your vast band of preachers has ANY evidence to provide us ex-xtians with, that will offer at least circumstantial evidence for the existence of your god, well, we are all ears awaiting your wonderful enlightenment.
If you don't have such evidence, we would greatly appreciate if you kept your blind faith to youself and your kind, and off our EX-xtian site.
Bye now
ATF (Who also wonders how the PEACE loving, "turn the other cheek" jesus, would feel about Jamie's prayers for a sports team)
Hi ATF, thanks for the previous welcome. Still working on my testimony. You sure do well in these arguments. I can't believe the christians just won't leave us alone repeating the same old shit, day in, day out
----
Hi eejay,
Yes, I'm still looking forward to hearing your own story. Do hope that will be soon?
Thanks for appreciating my arguments here.
It's always nice to hear one's efforts aren't just falling into some massive black hole...lol
Xtians love to haunt us, as you noted.
There is some driving-force going on here.
I highly suspect they believe their god will reward them personally for every 'soul' they brainwash into their dogma.
I also suspect that some xtians who despise the ex-xtian/atheist existence of us, will throw down a few bible verses and then vanish like the wind. I think they really are trying to make sure we've heard the 'good-news' about their god, just to make sure we can't claim ignorance on judgement day.
Yes, I'm sure there are a few out there who's intent is to try and 'save' our souls, with no other agenda at hand, but I somehow believe they are in the minority that we see here.
What really ticks most of us off, is when a xtian finds this site for the first time, they believe that they are the very first to deliver the news to us of their "wonderful jesus" and his teachings and promises etc..
They don't bother to look around the site first, but instead blindly assume we are ignorant of their god instead.
I think part of this last problem, is that some find their way here via some external link that leads them to a specific page. They see this as the entire website and base their opinion on what they see of that one page.
Either that, or they are just too lazy to bother to navigate their way around to discover the rest of the site.
In order for the Webmaster to keep this site an open one, we just have to realize that we'll always have xtians bouncing in here to spread their fables.
Welcome aboard again eejay!!
ATF( Who knows many xtians maintain their undying faith, out of great fear)
"The Fool has said there is no God."
OK????? Am I supposed to be scared and intimidated by that?
Hate to burst your bubble, but once again your "Double Edged" Sword called "Bible Scripture" has failed to scare and intimidate me.
The biggest fools are christians. So go beat your bible some more while we sit here and scoff at the fact that another day has come and gone and your precious Savior is still no where to be found.
I'm sure you will also look for that scripture in the bible about people who will scoff at the 2nd coming. You christians are so predictable.
Hi everyone, thanks for the comments on my post.
I have to say that what I've quoted above really irritates me.
If God loved me unconditionally, he would not send me to hell for any reason. That's what unconditional love is, you love the person even if they hate you, even if they spit in your face; and you would never harm them regardless of how poorly they acted. Obviously the God this person believes in only loves people who kiss his ass. That is not unconditional love by any stretch of the imagination.
These kinds of contradictions in reasoning are part of what drove me away from Christianity in the first place. Sigh.
Like the Bible says, "The fool has said there is no God."
I am just quoting the Bible. If you don't believe it OK.
That is your problem not mine.
It just proves total depravity.
Read Revelation 9: 20-21
sounds a lot like many who comment here.
Also read 1 Corinthians 1: 20-25
and tell me what you think minus all the bad language.
And, yes, I've actually heard both used for the same purpose. Kindof redefines "taking the Lord's name in vain," doesn't it?
Since you liked quoting from the Bible, it say's in Psa 14:1,
"The fool hath said IN HIS HEART there is no God."
But, we atheist have said it to the WORLD!
Why don't you check out Psa 137:9,
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
I think, I'd rather be called fool, than happy christians like yourself, who call this verse a happy message from your God.
I haven't dropped a brick on my toe yet so the jury is still out on that one.
Thanks for the commentary on Psalms it like Romans 5:6-8 better.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
"What about the Bible verses? Did you read them?"
Yes I have. Most of us, contrary to popular belief, have read the bible. What is your point here? Your imaginary god is smarter than we are? That people are basically stupid? I am not impressed and I doubt that any one else here is. You decry our use of obscenities yet you resort to veiled insults, calling us children and calling upon your god to insult us as well. For your information, there is no such thing as dirty language, only dirty minds. I would think that if we make you feel like a young teenager, then you need to grow up.
Quoting the bible to us makes about as much sense as a muslim quoting the quran to you trying to prove allah. Your continued denials of his "truth" will only further convince him that you are blind.
For every biblical verse you can quote showing the love of your god, most of us can quote ten showing how maniacally sadistic he really is. It must be nice to go through life picking and choosing that which appeals to you and denying the existence that which does not. I would rather deal with cold hard reality than your comforting fantasy any day, but then I am not a coward that has to go through life hiding behind the robes of a super being crying “get’em daddy!”.
Your bible is not truth. It is the result of no doubt intelligent people trying to explain the world around them in terms and concepts they and others of the bronze-age day could understand. You are proceeding here from the usual erroneous assumption that none of us have read that disgusting piece of filth and that if we did read it, then somehow we’ll just magically understand. That Jamie, is a crock of shit!
Thanks for your comments.
You used 2 words i would like to respond to.
1) Truth-
Jesus said this about truth:
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. John 8:34
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! John 8:45
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. John 14:17
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." John 18:37
"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him.
John 18:38
2) blind
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4
I encourage you to read these verses and see for yourself what "truth and blindness" really means.
God bless Heuy
Give it up pal, we've dealt with your kind before. You don't have a prayer of winning a debate in this group, and just in case you can't figure it out, this is "Ex-Christian.net" and we don't really care what "you" think, or what the bible has to say on the matter, because the bible is nothing more than "Hear Say".
Oh, and if there is a "God", you can't prove that he is the God of the bible, and just because the bible says so, that still does not prove that the bible is the authentic "Word of God". You are going to have to provide evidence outside of the bible to prove your theory. Not scripture itself.
OK????? Am I supposed to be scared and intimidated by that?
Hate to burst your bubble, but once again your "Double Edged" Sword called "Bible Scripture" has failed to scare and intimidate me.
The biggest fools are christians. So go beat your bible some more while we sit here and scoff at the fact that another day has come and gone and your precious Savior is still no where to be found.
Jamie Steele Said:
"That is your problem not mine.
It just proves total depravity"
I'm not the one who has a problem. In case you haven't figured it out, you are the one who has a problem, because you are the one who is unable to convince any of us that your bible holds truth.
You are also the one who is deprived. You are deprived of being able to think for yourself. You have no idea or clue how christianity robs people of their dreams and how it enslaves others.
True freedom outside of christianity has taught people like myself to accept others who choose to be different. You christians are no better than Adolf Hitler and his Nazi followers. If it were up to you christians you would all murder and kill anyone who is gay.
Loving and accepting other people from different walks of life is "True Love" unlike the christian message the teaches bigotry and hate.
Jamie Steele Says:
"Thanks for the commentary on Psalms it like Romans 5:6-8 better"
Why of course you do Jamie, because just like every other christian you like to "Cherry Pick" bible verses that tell you what "you" want to hear. You ignore the barbaric stuff that the bible teaches. The facts are that your God is a jealous barbaric murderer, and you aid and abet a known killer and murderer.
It is people like you who give God his strength, because without his followers, God is nothing. He needs strength in numbers in order for him to be powerful. I would be more than willing to bet that you really do not love God with all your heart. The only reason why you obey God is out of the fear of hell. That is the only reason why.
However, I was once like you, scared to death to think for myself and scared to death to do what I desired, and I was afraid to associate with "Non-Christians" and other people who live alterantive lifestyels all because I was afraid of the big bad God in the sky. Leaving Christianity has taught me to love and tolerate others who are different. That is what makes my kind better than all of you christian "Neo-Nazis", who preach nothing more than hatred.
Do you have any proof for what you believe?
I take the Bible as a very accurate historical document. And I read it and think for myself.
I became a Christian at the age of 20. I didn't grow up in church or learn the lingo. I was much like you sound to be now.
I am not putting you down at all but most of the comments on this thread seem to come from people who are very Biblically literate.
So what is the harm in talking about what it says.
If it is false big deal.
Did you read the Bible verses?
I find it quiet funny that you still find the need to quote scripture on here, all because you can't come up with anything that proves your case for Christ.
I really don't give a fuck about what the bible has to say on the matter so shove it up your ass you worthless piece of shit christian. Lucky for you this is the internet, because I would shut you up really quick if you were standing there running your mouth to me in person.
You should thank God for the safety of your home and the computer. By the way Jamie, why don't you do like I told Taylor, and go over to Iran and other Muslim Nations and preach to these radical Muslims about the good news of Jesus Christ.
You won't do it will you? What's the matter Jamie, are you too chicken to do so? Jesus has commanded you christians to go and spread his gospel to all nations? Why do you disobey your God?
I tell you why, because you are a arrogant, self-righteous American Christian who thinks "Nobody can totuch me, because I am an American Christian, and America is "One Nation Under God".
You are a bible beating coward who is too chicken shit to leave the comfort of his nice suburban home and go out and really spread the gospel. You are a coward Jamie.
I dare you to quote scripture to some radical Muslim's face.
You don't have the guts to do so. Ch-Ch-Ch-Chicken!
All American Christians are cowards who run their mouths. All American Christians hide behind their computers and the walls of their churches. You probably drive an expensive SUV with a fish on the back of it, and you run your mouth on a cell phone while you drive down the road.
If a radical Muslim held a gun to your head or the heads of any member of your family, and told you to reject Christ or he will kill you or one of your family members, you'd start squalling like a baby, and you'd reject Christ within one minute. I guarantee it.
Of course, you don't think God would ever allow that to happen, because you are an arrogant "American Christian" who believes that nobody can touch you.
You hide behind this governments military. That is the only thing that protects arrogant American Christians like you. Not God.
"If it is false big deal."
"Did you read the Bible verses"
Sure I did, back a long time ago, when I didn't know any better. Back when I lived in fear of your God. Which I am now free of.
You fail to see that most people who post on here were once just like you. Most people on this site have read the bible and most have been a part of your faith in the past. We no longer subscribe to your beliefs and we now see just how dangerous the christian cult really is.
You asked:
"So what is the harm in talking about what it says."
This site was designed for those who no longer have any desire to be a part of the christian faith.
People like myself have no desire to here bible scripture. This site was not created for christians. It was designed for ex-christians who no longer want anything more to do with the christian faith.
When you post here, you accomplish absolutely nothing. Instead you anger others, and you make all of us resent your faith even more. You will not convert anyone back to the faith by what you are doing on here.
The best thing you can do is shake the dust off your feet, and leave this site. You are spinning your wheels Jamie. None of us are receiving what you are saying, so the best thing to do is what your bible teaches christians to do. Shake the dust off your feet, and leave town.
The more you preach on here, the more resistance you will find.
You'll only be setting yourself up to get flamed some more.
Chill out dude. Take a break.
I have been out of the country. The last mission trip i went on was to the Philippines.
We did a medical clinic for 7 days.
I took one local dr. and many nurses and we helped many Phlipinos in Dipolog.
I also gave my basketball shoes to a former Muslim sniper who is now a born again Christian.
I was very humbled to be with those wonderful people.
We helped Christian and mostly non Christians in this area.
Our church has been over there 3 times since. 2001.
WE also have made several trips to Gulfport Miss. after Katrina helping to rebuild homes.
Just a few things, i am not bragging but since you just straight up judged me i thought i would respond.
You said, "You don't have the guts to do so. Ch-Ch-Ch-Chicken!"
I also speak at several maximum security prisons, what have you done lately.
I am not trying to covert anybody, what is the harm in talking.
You guys seem so mad.
It is really sad.
Don't take this as an offense but even when i was lost i didn't have this much hate in my heart for others...
Perhaps not, since you are all into J.J. Packer, but you are definitely preaching.
"You guys seem so mad. It is really sad."
Why is appearing to be angry something to be sad about? Let me ask you, non-evangelizing-constantly-posting-Calvinist, if dozens of Muslims a day were posting on your little blog, telling you that you must repent and join the true religion -- Islam -- or you were going to hell, and that without Allah you are lost and hopeless and have no meaning in your life, etc., And these Muslims kept posting this type of rhetoric day and night, never engaging in real coversation, not caring what the other person's perspective might be, intent on presenting THE GOSPEL, and this went on tirelessly for six years...
Well, how do you think you would feel?
"Don't take this as an offense but even when i was lost i didn't have this much hate in my heart for others..."
Don't take offense, but you are quite arrogant in assuming you have the slightest inkling of how anyone on a website actually feels based soley on the tone of someone's writing on a blog. I think you mistake frustration with hatred. And I think you come off as superior in your own mind.
How convenient it must be to accuse of hatred all those who think your religion is ridiculous. And then how nice it must be to look at others who are recovering from addiction to the Christian cult and feel superior! Like any addict, you think the non-addicted are missing out on something wonderful What you don't realize is the drug has made your mind incapable of thinking rationally when it comes to your drug -- a.k.a., religion.
I’m assuming we’re talking about the bible here. (I couldn’t be bothered to read through most of Jamie’s original ranting posts, so thanks, Advocate.)
I don’t think talking about what the bible says is harmful. Well, not here, anyway where there’s no danger of any souls being won for Christ.
I do think it’s a waste of time, though. Not that there’s anything wrong with wasting some time arguing with the faithful if it entertains you.
What Jamie and Taylor and the rest of the bible-quoting trolls don’t get *STILL* is that we aren’t impressed by their holy book. At all. Not even a little bit.
Even if we grant that Jesus was a real person, which is iffy at best, that still doesn’t prove the bible’s truth. Fiction writers reference real people and events in novels all the time but their books are still shelved in the fiction section in libraries and bookstores.
We consider the “Holy Bible” to be fiction. Get it? Quoting it to us is like quoting from a Stephen King novel to prove that monsters live in the fog sometimes.
This has been a clue. Please pick up on it.
I am not trying to covert anybody, what is the harm in talking.(?)
Dear "Jamie Steele",
I suspect that you, like our resident troll, "Taylor", have the cyber-equivilent of corncobs jammed in your ears, which might be, roofing joists jammed in your eyes.
Look, even if you've not taken the time to read any of the testimonies here---you've been told by at least one poster - not to mention - it should be implicit, that we've examined the Christian belief and we've determined to be false. Um, EX-christian.net?
To help you comprehend "the why", well, it's essentially for many of the same reasons that you've determine every other religion but your own to be false. We simply don't see credible evidence; and we know what it means to compartmentalize.
So no, there's no real "harm" in talking about religion. But honestly, it's quite bothersome when people like you come in here casting aspersions and thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, while insisting that you are only here to "talk about" things. In other words, you're off to a horrible start.
J.S.: You guys seem so mad.
It is really sad.
Um, yeah...we've been lied to, and in some cases, even threatened, by friends and family members---let alone, the belief itself. Anyway, for many, this abuse went on for great portions of our lives. We have a reason to be angry. See here, and don't dawdle.
J.S.: Don't take this as an offense but even when i was lost i didn't have this much hate in my heart for others...
Yeah, I used to tell people the same thing..e.g..that they are "lost". And admittedly, I, like you right now, "Jamie", couldn't see how rude and condescending that was. Oh, and before you go on with, "yeah, but you guys cuss, and swear"...yada, yada, I suggest you bear in mind that YOU CAME HERE.
Nonetheless, if you can't see our position, I ask you to do one of two things: a) Simply provide convincing evidence that your religion is the Objective Universal Truth(with references/sources), or b) Click the little red "x" in the corner of your browser. M'kay?
Bye now.
"Don't take this as an offense but even when i was lost i didn't have this much hate in my heart for others..."
You have to understand Jamie, that when you continue to not respect the wishes of others on here to be left alone that is what causes anger.
You would react the same way if someone continued to harass you about being an atheist. How would you like if a bunch of atheists came into your church and started preaching and talking bad about your faith? You would get angry too wouldn't you?
That is the only reason why you are getting such hostile replies on here. This site is not designed for you to spread the gospel.
A lot of people use this site to seek refuge away from the very thing that you believe in. A lot of us have been deeply hurt and wounded by christianity.
That is what you are failing to realize Jamie. Some of us have been deeply hurt by christianity and anytime someone comes onto this site preaching and quoting scripture it only rips the scabs off of those wounds.
You are basically pouring salt into the wounds of these same people. Sorry to tell you this, but we do not see christianity as a good thing.
I for one feel it oppresses anyone who is part of the GLBT Community, and it takes away the rights and freedoms to be oneself. I have learned to love and accpet others regardless of what they believe.
Christianity hurts people more than it helps them. It divides people and it causes discrimination towards people who choose to live an alternative lifestyle.
People need to love and accept others for who they are, not what they choose to believe.
I hope you guys have a great day and cheer up a little bit.
Life is not all that bad.
Seems like Atheism has a long way to go to equal the "abundant life Jesus gives".
I have been a Christian for 17years and i can honestly say I love Jesus more today than then.
My faith is stronger than ever and I hope someday you guys can experience this as well.
I will leave you with a quote from a former atheist
"The hallmark of intelligence is not whether one believes in God or not, but the quality of the processes that underlie one’s beliefs."
— Alister McGrath
"Seems like Atheism has a long way to go to equal the "abundant life Jesus gives".
Jamie,
I happen to be agnostic, however I can't say that I have ever found an abundant life when it comes to Jesus. All I have ever found is rejection due to the fact that I am a "Transsexual Lesbian" which is something that would make most christians skin crawl.
I will tell you in all honesty Jamie, and I don't expect you to understand this, however I can truly say that ever since I opened up my mind and left Conservative Christianity, like Advocate was saying, I have learned not to judge others just because they don't subscribe to a certain belief.
Since leaving christianity, I have also learned to love others unconditionally, and I have learned to see certain beauties in people that I was not able to see as a christian.
Plus as a christian, I was miserable. I was afraid to become my true self which is "Mandy" due to the fact that most chrisitians would look down on a "Transsexual Lesbian", so I lived in bondage scared to death to be my true self, and I got no where in life.
Now I no longer live in the fear of being tossed into hell, and I am more happy, more outgoing, and more loving than I ever was as a christian male. That is the honest truth.
Jamie Wrote:
"My faith is stronger than ever and I hope someday you guys can experience this as well."
Well if it works for you then that's great, however it didn't work for me, and it doesn't work for some people.
I mean you no harm Jamie, even though you may think that someone like me is detestable, however I hope the day comes when people can learn to love and accept my kind.
I am a very loving person, and I hate nobody, and that includes christians. I have no regrets for being my true self, and I am more happy than I have ever been in my whole entire life.
That's all I have to say on the matter.
Have a good day. :)
In this case, I'll believe it when I don't see it. Nonetheless, I'm near certain you'll be back to read the comments, so, moving right along....
Jamie Steele...I hope you guys have a great day and cheer up a little bit.
When Christians put up, or shut up, it'll be a "great day" here on EX-christian.net. Meanwhile, we get "cheer" from all the same things that you get "cheer" from, when not engaged in religious discussion. In other words, one needn't be superstitious or religious to get happiness and "cheer" from family, friends, careers, hobbies, etc., etc.
'Get it, now?
Jamie Steele...Life is not all that bad.
'Pardon?...who said "life" IS "all that bad"??? Again, this is merely another strawman; it is merely you, the Christian, projecting your own distorted view of what it means to be Atheist.
Jamie Steele...Seems like Atheism has a long way to go to equal the "abundant life Jesus gives".
LMAO! Um, seems like you've got a long way to go before you figure out that the only place "Jesus" exists, is underneath your skullcap.
Jamie Steele...I have been a Christian for 17 years..
Uh huh, and do you realize that many children believe that "Santa Claus" is real for around half that long. So?...does that therefore mean that there's a 50% chance that "Santa" is real??? No, of course not. In other words, longevity of belief says NOTHING about whether said belief has a referent in reality. Or put another way; whoopty-shit.
Jamie Steele......and i can honestly say I love Jesus more today than then.
Goody for you!
Jamie Steele...My faith is stronger than ever and I hope someday you guys can experience this as well.
Yes! yes!..your "faith" is stronger than ever---just like a Mormon's "faith" is stronger than ever; just like a Muslim's "faith" is stronger than ever. Now, are you convinced that the latter two instances have anything to do with reality?
Jamie Steele...I will leave you with a quote from a former atheist
News flash: EVERY religious person is a "former Athiest"; you came into this world without the belief in "God"....i.e.."Atheist"
Jamie Steele quotes: "The hallmark of intelligence is not whether one believes in God or not, but the quality of the processes that underlie one’s beliefs." — Alister McGrath
Listen, if you can tell me what mental "processes" to employ that make one "faith" valid, WITHOUT making myriad other religious "faiths" equally valid, then I'll be happy to have a listen. Otherwise, I can't see believing in something for which there is no convincing evidence as all that "intelligent". If fact, I see the idea as quite silly, as well as dangerous.
"I have been out of the country. The last mission trip i went on was to the Philippines.
We did a medical clinic for 7 days.
I took one local dr. and many nurses and we helped many Phlipinos in Dipolog.
I also gave my basketball shoes to a former Muslim sniper who is now a born again Christian."
Still Jamie, I'm sure you went to places where your church figured would be the safest places to go.
Why don't you take a step in faith and go over to Iran or Iraq and spread the good news of Jebus over there? I'm sure that would be more of a challenge to you.
Then again, I'm sure you will not go where it is not safe.
As far as the prison ministry is concerned, big deal. So what? I know lots of christians who have done the old prison ministry that has tons of Armed Prison Guards to keep you from getting harmed or attacked.
Jamie Steele Said:
"what have you done lately."
I've helped educate people on how to prosper and live a productive life without fear of a some jealous and insecured ass hole God who is going to toss people into hell if they don't kiss his ass and suck his dick for him.
Unlike you, I don't go around spreading superstition, fear, and lies to people about the big bad voodoo daddy in the sky.
I am also willing to bet that you come back here to debate some more of us, or defend yourself.
Although Jesus taught christians to be fishers of men, most of them would rather stay in safe waters instead of going into Shark Infested Waters.
Looking back over one of Jamie Steele's previous comments:
"I also gave my basketball shoes to a former Muslim sniper who is now a born again Christian."
I tell you what Jamie, go over to Iran and Iraq and convert every single Muslim over there to christianity. Why don't you try that?
Here is a better and safer idea you should try. Instead of giving the former Muslim Sniper your basketball shoes, why don't you do something bigger and better than that? Anyone can give away a pair of shoes.
Why don't you invite your new christian friend "The former Muslim Sniper" to come live with you and your family and provide him a place to live? After all God says to "Love thy neighbor as thyself". If you refuse to do so, then you are not "loving thy neighbor as thyself".
Then again, why don't you just sell your house or just give your house to your christian friend (The former Muslim Sniper)? The bible does say "To sell your possesions and give them to the poor".
I challenge you to do so. God's law commands it. I suggest you obey.
I have been a Christian for 17years and i can honestly say I love Jesus more today than then.
My faith is stronger than ever and I hope someday you guys can experience this as well
----
Jamie,
Boomslang made some very good points to you, but of course you'll fail to see they were valid.
In the meanwhile, let me tell you the story about "Frog Soup", which may help you realize why you get more and more acclimated into the god-bubble as time goes on (REF: 17 years of god service).
Frog Soup
You decide one evening that you would like to make some Frog Soup.
(Yeah I know, it's not for everyone)
So you bring home a live frog to cook.
(Don't ask why the frog you bought wasn't already dead)
Anyway, you now get a big pot of water and put it on the stove and wait for it to boil.
(Keep in mind here that a watched-pot never boils)
You turn your back for just a moment, so the water will boil sooner
(This is another superstition, just like the belief in a god)
You reach into box the frog came in, and holding it firmly in your hand, you drop the squirming frog into the boiling water.
(This process of killing rarely bothers most xtians we've met here)
You are amazed when the frog doesn't admit it's defeated and it leaps from the boiling water and escapes through the backdoor you failed to close.
(Calling the frog to come back to you at this point, usually is ineffective)
You now reconcile yourself to eating leftovers for dinner.
(However, you maintain a blind faith that somehow the frog will find it's way into your neighbors boiling pot of water and are okay with this idea)
The next day it's obvious the frog isn't going to come back to be your dinner, so you go out and purchase another living frog to cook.
(You hold a hope that the first frog isn't telepathically connected to the second frog, and will mentally warn it of your intentions)
This time you fill the pot with tepid water and place it on the stoves cold burner and very gently place the frog in the tepid water, where it seems content to just swim around and not jump out.
(You wonder why you didn't use this method the previous evening)
You now turn on the stove's burner and the water very slowly grows warmer and warmer.
(You stand ready to catch the frog when it notices the water is getting too warm)
You notice bubbles starting to cling to the pot's surface and stick your finger in the water to sense it's temperature. The water is now almost hot enough to burn your finger, yet the frog just sits there staring into space, unaware of it's predicament.
(You are confused why the frog hasn't tried to escape it's fate)
The water starts to boil, the frog is no longer alive and is fast approaching your dinner plate.
(You now are convinced that humans are far superior to frogs, as you are certain you would have jumped from the pot when things got a bit too steamy for you)
How does my frog soup story relate to our human experiences in life?
Okay, let me explain how this story applies to us then.
Let's look at how most companies function, when they are looking to make drastic changes in their policy towards employee benefits etc..
Most companies are very aware if they try to reach their ultimate goal of implementing those drastic changes all at once, that they will anger many employees and many of them will quit their jobs and move on; possibly to a competitor.
So what do companies do instead.
They spread the desired changes out over a LONG period of time, allowing the employees to mentally adjust to each benefit item being reduced, or removed.
After some predetermined (but acceptable) period of time, the company has succeeded in reducing those benefits, all without losing many employees in the process.
Many goals in this life can be obtained using this frog soup method.
If you wish to brainwash someone into a new way of thinking about something, the best method is to expose them to just one idea at a time, wait for them to accept this idea, then feed them the next idea, and so forth.
Eventually you will have convinced this person that this new way of thinking is correct.
If you had instead tried to deliver all your ideas at the same time, they would have seen through the fallacy of your plan.
Getting someone to buy into some form of religious dogma, is best done by using this frog soup method. It's far easier to convince trusting children that your dogma is factual, but even adult minds can be brainwashed by this very slow frog soup process.
The idea, that you believe it's noteworthy to say you've been a xtian for 17 years, only says to me that some xtians had this long length of time to feed your mind the ideas they wished to brainwash you with.
If they had tried to impart upon you 18 years ago, the full blown dogma you now have accepted as being true, you most likely would have balked at their attempt and easily seen the fallacy in this overall dogma and the bible stories etc..
Instead, you were fed this dogma in a piecemeal fashion, and were given time to accept each new piece before having it added to by the next piece.
So, just as I said about companies playing this game of frog soup with their employees, in order to gain their acceptance of some new ideas/rules, the xtian believers in your life got you to accept their creeds by using this same tried and true method of instilling into your mind, what they wished you to swallow.
Right now, you are still like that frog sitting in a pot of water, who's is unaware of it's ignorance, and thinks it's fate is in good hands.
Instead of the bible boiling away your physical life (as it did the frog), it is slowly boiling away your ability to see the world in a rational manner.
It has succeeded in installing a filter in your mind, such that all your views/opinions of the world, have to be seen through this special god-filter.
If this god-filtered brainwashing of your mind wasn't true, you would have no problem seeking out non-biblical evidence about the validity of your god/jesus existence.
You wouldn't be conveniently ignoring all the missing history that clearly show your human jesus never walked this earth;let alone as some son-of-a-god.
Ahhh, but because the brainwashing of your mind has been so thorough, you are convinced that only your bible contains the truths of this world and any truths that differ from the bible, are surely being spread around by your bible devil.
To you, it's just inconceivable that the universe didn't require a magical god to create it.
To you, there is no problem with your super god always having existed, but you can't accept that the matter of the universe also might have always existed.
To you, it's far more likely that some being that has infinite powers of all kinds, would have just come about, with no external forces needed to create this god being.
Ah, but at the same time, you find it impossible that matter of this universe, which contains no special infinite powers, could exist without some god having formed it.
I guess to god believers, it's far more likely for something beyond extraordinary, to always have existed, rather than something commonplace to do the same.
For you, no proof of your god is needed, as you've been well taught to just accept things from your bible, as-is.
See, for the rest of us though, we NEED proof that something is factual before we can accept it as being of reality.
At the very least, the influence/actions your god is claimed to render upon our physical existence, should be apparent and provable to everyone.
Is there anything of this physical world that ever took place, that couldn't possibly have happened without some supernatural forces making that thing happen?
If all those miracles in your bible really happened and didn't affect this free will you will claim we have, then why don't we see those same type of miracles today (outside of hearsay)?
Why is your god so shy about proving his existence to those of us that failed to be brainwashed into your doctrine?
Why is it very necessary for one to shut down their cognitive thinking in order to FEEL god?
Why is it that the only proof your god offers anyone, exists only as FEELINGS alone?
Answer me these questions, Mister Jamie, I DARE YOU !!
ATF (Who has become the frog who escaped the hot pot)
That was a great analogy with the frog soup. Just a wonderful post within a post.I lost one of my best friends to the Christian cult and it happened very slowly over time. It was years from the time he started going to church to the time he became a Christian zombie who could no longer think for himself. His mind was ever so slowly heated to the bullshit. This friend will no longer speak to me because I am part of his evil past.
He would love Jamie.
I am happy to say despite the fact that I may have jumped in the pot, the water never got very warm. The heating element always went on the fritz before the water got hot. Tepid was a warm as it got. In other words my mind would never fully buy into the bullshit of Christianity. Tepid God belief is a far as I slid.
xrayman (couldn't get the thing to work right so I had to post anonymous)
I lost one of my best friends to the Christian cult and it happened very slowly over time. It was years from the time he started going to church to the time he became a Christian zombie who could no longer think for himself
---
Hi there Xray',
Sorry to hear about your blogger login difficulties.
Also, thanks much for your kind words on my "Frog Soup" Story. I thought it was quite a fitting analogy for religious brainwashing, even though I've mostly heard it applied to the workplace, in my time.
As with you, I also 'lost' a good friend a long time ago to xtian brainwashing.
At first it didn't seem his interest in jesus was anymore than a passing fancy, but then one weekend he went on this xtian "Retreat", to some isolated out-in-the-country location.
He came back all excited about his new found 'friends' and was convinced these evangelicals knew the secret path to reaching jesus etc..
I was still then a 'believer' in jesus; although at that point in time it was more an intellectual pursuit, rather than an emotional endeavor.
While he did try at first to rope-me into attending one of the Retreat functions, he soon had to settle for my paying a one time visit to his new church.
Well, one time was enough for me, as I saw fairly clearly that these folks didn't arrive at their beliefs by using their noggins, but instead were driven by sheer emotions alone.
The only difference between your x-friend and mine, is that I still hear from this friend now and then, but he knows better than to broach the subject of religion to me. While I never told him I'm an atheist, I think he figured it out anyway.
ATF (Who also realized when the religious "pot of water", was getting a bit too toasty)
The most ironic thing that happened to my friend is the fact that he was the cheapest bastard I have ever known, yet in his born again life he freely gives 10%.
Like your friend he hung out with me and his old gang for many years trying to get us hooked on Jesus every step of the way and like you said we all thought it was a passing fancy. He was the absolute worst salesman for Jebus in the world. He became this Bible quoting robot. I don't even think he knew what the fuck he was saying, but he certainly did a real disservice to his cause. When ever I would ask him a few basic questions about his faith he couldn't deal with them and he would shut down. Back then I did profess God belief, just not the Christian God belief and he stated so many times that I was destined for eternal damnation without Jebus. To me it was sometimes real good comedy trying to take him seriously.
The last straw came when he married an uptight bitch from his church who in a sense brainwashed him into thinking all his old friends were evil. It just really sucked losing a friend who was like a brother to me since I was seven. My life would be complete if my friend gave me a call one fine day and said, "Bill, I was wrong !!!!" Let's hang out.
xrayman
See ya in hell!
HA!HA!HA!HA!
Doesn't scripture tell you that you are not to appeare as evil?
1 Thessalonians 5:22
"Abstain from all appearance of evil."
See, you'd be in there too.
Good thing it doesn't exist.
Shame really.
Oh and as for the Iraq/Iran comment...
Reasearch: Dave Roben.
He has lead faith teams of various non violent faiths; christians bah'ai and buddhist amoungst them, into both those countries and other Islam locked countries.
He has been threatened by gunmen and the like, and lived through it.
At last word he was leading a team to the 'death for owning a bible, never mind speaking from it' region of The Maldives.
2 things as I roam away looking for more inteligent debate than can be found on this cesspool of misinformation:
1) Won't be back, so the attempted witty and dispulsive responses are a waste of time
2) 'Zombie Jesus' still watches over ya's
This is my opinion on your "born again" experience. I think you didn't understand what you have just accepted. Maybe you were just swayed by your friends or from people around you when you accepted Christ but in your heart, you don't really understand it and you are not ready yet. Being born again doesn't stop when you first accepted Christ. You must read the bible constantly to more about God and His love for us. God is a loving God and He cares for you and me. And then you ask, why does bad things happen to me? or to good people? Things happen for a purpose, God didn't create us to be robots, He gave us freewill and understanding. Not every ideas we have is good for us or is the will of God. Only then if we pursue that idea and that idea is not the will of God for us, then trouble comes in. But God always show us a way out from the mess we created and He rebuke us with love that only He can do, not our friends or family. God is real and is bigger than this world. If you don't believe in the resurrection of Christ, read the book of Acts. it tell about the encounter of Paul with the resurrected Christ.
"to Skyeyes and to all x-christians:
This is my opinion on your "born again" experience. I think you didn't understand what you have just accepted."
And I think you're wrong.
There, we're even.
"You must read the bible constantly to more about God and His love for us..."
You mean, the Bible that talks about the "loving" god who drowned the planet and ordered the genocide of the Amakalites?
You see, we do know the Bible after all. Surprise!
"God didn't create us to be robots... Not every ideas we have is good for us or is the will of God."
So you're saying that we are *not* robots, yet subject to "the will of God"? Explain the contradiction, please.
"God is real and is bigger than this world."
Unsupported assertion. Prove the above statement without resorting to the Bible, apologetics, or subjective personal experiences. Your evidence must be obtained via a double-blind study with full documentation, and capable of being duplicated in similar experiments by research teams. "Faith" doesn't cut it around here.
1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned aside,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
4 Will evildoers never learn—
those who devour my people as men eat bread
and who do not call on the LORD
5 There they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is their refuge.
7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
**********************************
You don't even know the right spelling of Amalekites, you wrote "Amakelites", now who's reading the bible now?
God punished these people because of their sins. These people woship another god, besides the God of heaven and earth. They don't know that the Almighty God is a jealous God and He punishes those who do not acknowledge Him. And you are one of them.
"God is real and is bigger than this world".
here are the supporting verses:
Yahweh is omnipresent. He said, “Do I not fill heaven and earth? Yahweh [the Lord] demands?” (Jeremiah 23:24, NJB). He also said, "The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool" (Isaiah 66:1; see also Acts 7:49).
let's see if you can digest that.
Does that makes you realized that there is a supreme being who created this world?
God is a spirit and there's a spirit within us. That's why we don't just pray with your mouth but with your spirit. The Holy Spirit has given every born again believer the gift of speaking in a different tongues. Nobody understands it because it's the the Spirit of God talking to your Spirit.
Which of the following is true about you?
1) I am in grade school.
2) I am a sock puppet.
3) I am utterly clueless.
Just trying to save some time here...
none of the above.
And how do you classify yourself?
Ok Jim, I'll let you know some of the truths. It's easy to say you don't believe God because He is invisible (spirit) and we can't see Him. People would like to see a tangible God so they can believe that He exist. To see is to believe. right?
I compared it to air, because people tend to believe that there is presence of air (the air we breathe) in the atmosphere, which is true, but does anybody here have seen a tangible air? Now, tell me why you don't believe that God exist but you believe that there is air around us.
*********************************
The reason why the "Spirit realm" exist is because I experienced it when I worked in Singapore. I went to bed late one night and awoke in my sleep realizing that there is a ghost on the side of the bed standing looking at me, even touch my hand. The ghost is like floating in the air as was portrayed in some movies. I kind dismissed it and blinked several times but the ghost is still there. When I lean on the bed to move, the ghost walked towards the wall and banished. It happened to me twice. I came into conclusion that the Spirit Realm exist!
You may laugh at me or dismissed this as fraud but it is the truth.
"ghost" are "spirits" and they are in the Spirit Realm just as God is.
read this passage in the bible in Matthew:
Jesus Walks on Water:
After feeding the five thousand, Jesus sends his disciples ahead of him in a boat to cross the Sea of Galilee. Several hours later in the night, the disciples encounter a storm. Jesus comes to them, walking on the water. This terrifies the disciples and they think they are seeing a ghost. Jesus tells them in verse 27, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."
Peter replies, "Lord, if it's you, tell me to come to you on the water." So Jesus invites Peter to come. Peter gets out of the boat and begins walking on the water toward Jesus. But when Peter takes his eyes off Jesus and sees the wind and waves, he begins to sink. Peter cries out to the Lord and Jesus immediately reaches out his hand and catches Peter. As they climb into the boat together, the storm ceases. Then the disciples worship Jesus, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
I'll substitute the word opinion for truth here, if you don't mind.
April: "It's easy to say you don't believe God because He is invisible (spirit) and we can't see Him."
But who would say such an infantile thing? You've just erected a straw man.
April: "People would like to see a tangible God so they can believe that He exist. To see is to believe. right?"
No. I've never seen an atom, but I have good reason to believe they exist. I've never seen a (living) dinosaur, but I have good reason to believe they existed. I've never seen a glacier carve out a lake, or a galaxy form, or a black hole swallow a star... Get it? But the one thing all of these have in common is objective evidence.
April: "Now, tell me why you don't believe that God exist but you believe that there is air around us."
Sorry, April, but that's got to be the dumbest question I've heard in a long time. Fill a sink with water, push a cup upside down into the water, then turn it. What do you see? Bubbles. Wave your hand near a lighted candle. See the flame flicker? Put your hand out the window of your car as you drive down the highway. Feel the force? Look at smoke particles under a microscope. See them dance around? I could go on and on. The existence of air can be objectively demonstrated in thousands of ways. We can make precise predictions about how it will behave according to pressure and temperature. PV = nRT anyone?
Now for god. I have never in my life seen ONE SCRAP of credible evidence for invisible spirits of ANY description; therefore, I have absolutely no reason to believe such exists.
Questions?
April: "The reason why the 'Spirit realm' exist is because I experienced it when I worked in Singapore."
Surely you mean "the reason I believe the "Spirit realm" exists...", right?
April: "I went to bed late one night and awoke in my sleep realizing that there is a ghost on the side of the bed standing looking at me, even touch my hand. The ghost is like floating in the air as was portrayed in some movies....I came into conclusion that the Spirit Realm exist!"
I see. Have you also concluded that alien abductions are real? Many people are absolutely convinced that they have been abducted. Do you discount their testimonies? Or those who have experienced Krishna?
April: "You may laugh at me or dismissed this as fraud but it is the truth."
I believe that you believe what you just said. As for it being credible evidence of ghosts... no. Not until you show that you are a very trustworthy observer, and that the circumstances were such that you could not have been mistaken, tricked, or deluded. Even then, your account would be only tepid evidence.
April: "read this passage in the bible in Matthew:..."
And why do you think that the stories in the Bible are historically accurate? There are thousands of similar tales told to "deify" other beings, may pre-dating Christianity. However, I'll bet that you are just as skeptical of those as I am. Why is Christianity any different?
Um, what part of "Prove the above statement without resorting to the Bible, apologetics, or subjective personal experiences" did you not understand?
Air is real. It's made out of matter. It has weight. It can destroy towns or move ships or be used to generate electricity.
Your god, however, exists only in your imagination until you provide scientific evidence that points *only* to your particular god and not to Oðinn, Shiva, Danu, Ra, or some god-like beings that humanity has never even experienced or imagined. Get this through your head right now: The Bible is not evidence of its own claims any more than the Elder Edda proves the existence of Thor and Loki or the Odyssey proves the existence of Athena and Poseidon.
"You don't even know the right spelling of Amalekites, you wrote "Amakelites", now who's reading the bible now?"
I make a spelling mistake in My haste to get My words out; the "chosen people" of your imaginary god allegedly murder an entire people because their religious beliefs were different. And you have the unmitigated gall to nit-pick a spelling error while defending genocide? You fucking disgust Me.
By the way, it's apparently a rather common spelling mistake on other forums as well, as a quick Googling turned up this delightful little debate. (I particularly like the Infidel's comment regarding those nasty, nasty babies.)
"God is a jealous God and He punishes those who do not acknowledge Him. And you are one of them."
Yes, I am. I am proud to be an agnostic polytheistic heiðinn Buddhist Ex-Christian humanist. Even if your filicidal, genocidal maniac of a god did exist I would not bother to worship it.
And your ghost story also fails to convince Me. I think you imagined or dreamed that as well.
Thanks so much, but the personal "truths" of some barely pubescent teenager bouncing around the internet, are simply NOT going to carry much weight---especially to grown, educated adults who have "left the nest" some 20, 30, 40, 50, etc., years ago.
Ariel...It's easy to say you don't believe [in] God because He is invisible (spirit) and we can't see Him.
No, it's easy to say I don't believe in gawd, because there is not one single shred of objective evidence for such a thing's existence. What's more - it's even easier to say it, when people like you try to convince us to the contrary by actually "creating", and employing non-sensical words...i.e..words with zero meaning, in an attempt to explain what they cannot explain in the first place. Here, allow me to illustrate for you:
Dear Ariel,
It's easy to say you don't believe in Isis, because She is invisible (gloparious) and we can't see Her.
Convinced? No, you say? Okay, would it help convince you if you were to ask me what a "gloparious" is, and I answer by telling you that it's some invisible "thingie" that lives in your cardiovascular organs, and/or that I have handbook in which the word "gloparious" appears approximately 1,946 times? Will that help convince you? 'Thought not.
So now, just think... that's EXACTLY the way you sound to us with the rhetoric you post.
Ariel...People would like to see a tangible God so they can believe that He exist. To see is to believe. right?
Not necessarily. We cannot "see" wind, but we know it exists...why? because we can measure and test its effects.*
Ariel...Now, tell me why you don't believe that God [exists] but you believe that there is air around us.
Okay, I will. Start at the beginning of this post, and re-read my replies until here*, above. Keep doing it, over and over and over, until you process the information effectively. Then, either offer some objective verifiable evidence for this "thingie" you speak of, or kindly leave. Deal?
Ariel...The reason why the "Spirit realm" exist is because I experienced it when I worked in Singapore.
Oh gosh, Singapore. Well, I apologize on their behalf that those missionaries have spread the mind-virus of Christianity to your country. Sad, really. But there's still hope. It's called reason.
Ariel...I went to bed late one night and awoke in my sleep realizing that there is a ghost on the side of the bed standing looking at me, even touch my hand. The ghost is like floating in the air as was portrayed in some movies.
And...
You may laugh at me or dismissed this as fraud but it is the truth.
"ghost" are "spirits" and they are in the Spirit Realm just as God is.
If you "saw it", then it wasn't a "ghost". Remember?...you said those "spirit" thingies are "invisible"....e.g..NOT visible, right? Make up your mind.
Ariel...read this passage in the bible in Matthew:[insert arbitrary biblical passage]
I'll tell you again---quoting scripture is entirely useless with us, that is, until/unless you can prove, OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE, that the bible is the objective Truth. If not...can we stick to the "deal" above? That is, if you cannot offer such evidence, will you leave? Thanks in advance.
I went to bed late one night and awoke in my sleep realizing that there is a ghost on the side of the bed standing looking at me, even touch my hand. The ghost is like floating in the air as was portrayed in some movies
---
Ariel,
Just want to add some further comments to what others have said on this ghost sighting you had.
1. If you had seen an alien being (like in the movies) next to your bed, would you automatically conclude that aliens must exist?
2. Folks who have these odd experiences of ghost/aliens/fairy's/goblins/witches and so forth, tend to have them when the sightings are associated with sleep. They either are very tired and kept themselves awake or believe they were awakened from their sleep by some activity in their room.
3. If you look at the long term history of such sleep related events, you'll find that whatever magical being happens to be in-vogue during that particular era of time, is the one most people will tend to see.
e.g. How many folks thought they were being abducted by aliens before Hollywood and the news media made such ideas well known?
Answer: almost none.
Whatever creature was popular in times gone by, was the one usually seen during these sleep related events. Once that creature lost public interest, then that creature was rarely seen anymore.
Ah, but as soon as some new creature came along that caught the public eye, then it to suddenly was being seen in droves.
As far as ghost sighting go, there have always been ghost sightings, but that doesn't mean ghosts are real by any means. It only means the great common desire for humans to believe in an afterlife, along with unexplained noises/shadows in the dark etc., make one's imagination fill in the blanks with images/sounds of what we think ghosts would look like.
Add to that the factor of how the movies portray them to us, and you have a formula to make one easily believe you actually saw a ghost.
Have you ever seen a ghost in the middle of the day, in sunlight, when you weren't the least bit tired?
If you haven't, then why not?
If ghosts are part of our earthly reality, then why would they only show themselves in very dim light (and usually in our bedrooms) or when we are tired or scared?
Sorry, but there is no evidence that ghost exists, anymore than UFO's with little green men driving them exist.
Tell you what you do. Bring a skeptical friend over one evening and sit in a dimly lit room and try and summon a ghost. Set up a camcorder to while you're at it.
If both you and your friend see this ghost clearly and so does the camcorder, then you have something you can cite as good evidence.
Of course, this will never happen, as it's been tried thousands of times and with no verifiable success I'm afraid.
ATF (Who is still waiting to see his very first ghost, but so far they remain silent and invisible, more so than air)
An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem;
science has with God, The Almighty.
He asks one of his new Christian students to stand and.....
Professor : You are a Christian, aren't you, son?
Student : Yes, sir.
Prof : So you believe in God?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Prof : Is God good?
Student : Sure.
Prof : Is God all-powerful?
Student : Yes.
Prof : My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him.
Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is
this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)
Prof : You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God
good?
Student :Yes.
Prof : Is Satan good?
Student : No.
Prof : Where does Satan come from?
Student : From...God...
Prof : That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student : Yes.
Prof : Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student : Yes.
Prof : So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof : Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible
things exist in the world, don't they?
Student :Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof : Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the
world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student : No, sir.
Prof : Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student : No , sir.
Prof : Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have
you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof : Yet you still believe in Him?
Student : Yes.
Prof : According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says
your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof : Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof : Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof : Yes.
Student : No sir. There isn't.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega
heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything
called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we
can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is
only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.
Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of
it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You
can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you
have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't
it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make
darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof : So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof : Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is
life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the
concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science
can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has
never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the
opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a
substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of
it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved
from a monkey?
Prof : If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of
course, I do.
Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the
argument is going.)
Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work
and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you
not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's
brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain,
felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so. So,
according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable
protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect,
sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable.)
Prof : I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & God is FAITH. That is all
that keeps things moving & alive.
I believe you have enjoyed the conversation...and if so...you'll probably
want your friends/colleagues to enjoy the same...won't you?...forward them
to increase their knowledge...
Have a nice day.. ^^
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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ELLEN D. ANGELES
-----Original Message-----
From: Lontoc, Rosalina (DDYJ) [mailto:Rosalina.Lontoc@dla.mil]
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Charisse Fernandez; Meredith; costalesreyman@yahoo.com; dennis saldivar;
Norma Caguioa; A. Crisostomo; Belen.Rosure.CTR@fe.navy.mil; Tayco, Daisy SK2
(FISC YOKO); Evelyn "BARTS" Ventura; eryka castillo;
Ellen.Angeles@navfacfe.navy.mil; Torres, Helena CIV; marlon costales; Juliet
L. Blanco; Jackie Costales; juan@lontoc.com;
Jeremias.costales@lpd7.navy.mil; QUEEN KC; KrystalAnne Costales Lontoc; Lynn
Torres; Manesh; PAUL CHAFFIN
Subject: FW: INTERESTING CONVERSATION
Rosalina C. Lontoc
(DDYJ) Defense Distribution Yokosuka Japan JID-Inventory Control
DSN: (315) 243-8205
Comm: 81-46-816-8205
Fax: 243-8218
Rosalina.Lontoc@dla.mil
-----Original Message-----
From: Canlas, Rebecca (DDYJ)
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 7:17 AM
To: Lontoc, Rosalina (DDYJ); Lontoc, Jonathan (DDYJ); eden11@cox.net;
nicrene@cox.net; Norma Caguioa; Maria.Bulseco.rp.ctr@fe.navy.mil;
mmguerrero@hotmail.com; nepomucev@yahoo.com
Subject: re: INTERESTING CONVERSATION
Subject: INTERESTING CONVERSATION
An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem;
science has with God, The Almighty.
He asks one of his new Christian students to stand and.....
Professor : You are a Christian, aren't you, son?
Student : Yes, sir.
Prof : So you believe in God?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Prof : Is God good?
Student : Sure.
Prof : Is God all-powerful?
Student : Yes.
Prof : My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him.
Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is
this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)
Prof : You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God
good?
Student :Yes.
Prof : Is Satan good?
Student : No.
Prof : Where does Satan come from?
Student : From...God...
Prof : That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student : Yes.
Prof : Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student : Yes.
Prof : So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof : Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible
things exist in the world, don't they?
Student :Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof : Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the
world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student : No, sir.
Prof : Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student : No , sir.
Prof : Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have
you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof : Yet you still believe in Him?
Student : Yes.
Prof : According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says
your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof : Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof : Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof : Yes.
Student : No sir. There isn't.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega
heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything
called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we
can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is
only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.
Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of
it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You
can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you
have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't
it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make
darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof : So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof : Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is
life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the
concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science
can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has
never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the
opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a
substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of
it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved
from a monkey?
Prof : If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of
course, I do.
Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the
argument is going.)
Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work
and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you
not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's
brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain,
felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so. So,
according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable
protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect,
sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable.)
Prof : I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & God is FAITH. That is all
that keeps things moving & alive.
That will be your next assignment. You need to make a research on the Spirit Realm. You have to experience it and get back with me.
You read a lot of crap, that's why your mind keeps on digesting crap.
To Astreja:
Why do you say air is real, you can't even see it? Can you measure it? how can you capture air and measure it? prove it.
Dear Ariel,
I suspect you may have a reading comprehension problem, yes? I only ask, because it has been explained to you several times now, by several people, how your "can't see air" analogy fails miserably.
Let's review:
Jim Arvo previously said: "Fill a sink with water, push a cup upside down into the water, then turn it. What do you see? Bubbles. Wave your hand near a lighted candle. See the flame flicker? Put your hand out the window of your car as you drive down the highway. Feel the force? Look at smoke particles under a microscope. See them dance around? I could go on and on. The existence of air can be objectively demonstrated in thousands of ways. We can make precise predictions about how it will behave according to pressure and temperature. PV = nRT anyone?"
and...
Astreja previously said: "Air is real. It's made out of matter. It has weight. It can destroy towns or move ships or be used to generate electricity."
and...
I previously said: "We cannot 'see' wind, but we know it exists...why? because we can measure and test its effects."
Of course, "wind" is simply the movement of "air". Like "air", you cannot "see" the "wind". However, unlike a "spirit", I'm happy to report that you can measure it. See here.
Once more, Ariel---your "air" analogy FAILS, bigtime. Fails, fails, fails. 'Got it?
Moving on, to yet, more flawed analogies...
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student: You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
********************************************************
From the "Holy Bible"...
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Genesis 1:3
"And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness." Genesis 1:4
If the premise is that "darkness" is simply the "absence of light", then an obvious question arises, and that is, why would the alleged "Creator of the Universe"..i.e..the alleged author of the bible, and creator of everything, including "logic", attempt to "divide" light from darkness?
Ariel: F -
Student: F -
"God": F -
Study harder, boys and girls...that's your next assignment.
Your only way of defense is to curse. isn't that most atheist do? nothing good comes out of their mouth. I therefore conclude that all ATHEIST are evil.
Isn't it obvious that God cares for you that He divided the light from darkness, so that you can have a normal 8 hour working period and have time to sleep at night?
If He didn't divide light from darkness, then people will be working 24 hours a day, no more time to sleep, then you will be miserable.
Dear Ariel,
Could you please tell where I "cursed" or used profanity in my last post? Again, I feel it's that reading comprehension problem taking its toll.
Previously, I challenged Ariel's "light is the absence of darkness" analogy, with:
"If the premise is that darkness' is simply the 'absence of light', then an obvious question arises, and that is, why would the alleged 'Creator of the Universe'..i.e..the alleged author of the bible, and creator of everything, including 'logic', attempt to 'divide' light from darkness?"
To be clear, this is based on the alleged "inspired word" of the Universe' alleged "Creator". It is/was a question directed to Ariel.
She "answers" this question with...
Isn't it obvious that God cares for you...
I don't recall asking you, or anyone else, if "God cares" for me. That is irrelevant, and FYI(for your information), it also a fallacy of bare assertion.
Ariel..[Isn't it obvious that God cares for you]He divided the light from darkness, so that you can have a normal 8 hour working period and have time to sleep at night?
(playing along)You mean, if it didn't get dark at night, there wouldn't be time to sleep? Do you realize how asinine that question is? Do you realize how ridiculous your reasoning is? Do you realize that even at night-time, there is still "light", from the reflection of the sun off the moon? Do you realize that people can work the "graveyard" shift? (No, that doesn't mean work at the local cemetary; it means, work their "8 hours" at night-time when it's dark)
Ariel...If He[God] didn't divide light from darkness, then people will be working 24 hours a day, no more time to sleep, then you will be miserable.
You're kidding right? Please tell me you are a spoofer, and not someone who is sincerely this stupid. Good grief.
Please stop wasting our time, okay? If you cannot grasp how simplistic and misguided your "air" analogy is (or perhaps you do not even bother to read our replies), then there is zero prospect of having a meaningful discussion with you on deeper topics.
Have a nice life.
Bye bye.
True, in the sense that when we ask Christians to answer pointed questions, and/or, to provide sound reasoning for their position, we generally "don't get" anything that comes close to resembling a reasoned, logical argument for any "God".
Yes, Jim, it's sad, and scary, too.
And BTW, something tells me those aren't "parting" shots.
Because you refuse to believe and that's the reason.
Now give me a logical explanation about the origin of life. How it started and your perspective about death.
let see how you come up with your logical answer.
Because you refuse to believe and that's the reason.
Okay, that's your "answer". Now, was there a question somewhere that I missed? Please find it, because I'm not seeing it. If the question is, "hey boomslang, why don't you believe in God?", I'll tell you for possibly the second or third time, and that is that I see no credible *objective evidence for such a "thing".
*By "objective" evidence, that would be EXCLUDING ALL of the following:
- feelings or "gut instinct"
- anecdotal evidence(people's personal experiences..i.e..."I saw a ghost!")
- revealed knowledge(information handed down in holy books, on slates, cylinder seals, etc)
- self-proofing documents(i.e.."Y" is true because book "X" says it's true, and book "X" is true because book "X" says book "X" is true, therefore, "Y" is true)
- irrelevant analogies(i.e..."you can't see air, but it exists, therefore, God exists too!", etc)
- bare assertions(i.e.."God cares", etc)
- intimidation("all Atheists are EVIL!")
I think that about covers it, but I might add more to it as we go....depending on what else you have in your arsenal of lame Christian apologetics.
Singapore teenager(or adult spoofer)...Now give me a logical explanation about the origin of life.
Yes Ma'am!..right away, Ma'am!
But seriously, I take it you mean, life, from non-life, yes? If so, see abiogenesis.
Singapore teenager(or adult spoofer)...and your perspective about death.
You're born; you live; you die...just like all living organisms.
'Hope that helps.
Ive had to return to the working world and I'm missing out on some funny christian blatherings.
I can afford the popcorn but I don't have enough time to jump into the fray.
Just wanted everyone to know that I'm still here and stronger than ever.
Ariel said, "Because you refuse to believe and that's the reason."
What you are saying eccentually under your breath to us is:
Ariel:
I am personally offended because I cannot convince anyone here to become deluted and hopelessly brainwashed as I have allowed myself to become.
Therefore, I have to use Bible verses and verbal condescension towards you, in order for me to appear and feel that I am superior than people that do not easily fall for such foolish nonsense. This would of course be the Atheists, from which I have been told by my pastor that Atheists are murderers and liars and do not deserve the next breath that they take.
Although I do not fully understand what an Atheist is, all I know, is what I have been taught in churches, and if you do not believe as I believe, then there is no hope for you, but I have my crown of glory.
Now it's up to you all to get your Crown of Glory.
Let's get this straight, I am a better human being than you Atheists, because I believe in Jesus and you do not, and the Bible say's I am better than nonbelievers, only because I believe what the Bible says, not because I am any better a human being, but because the Bible and preachers say that I am better, this makes me feel superior, therefore I prefer to believe in the Bible.
(Am I close to being right, Ariel?)
Go down to your corner five-and-dime store and buy yourself a pinwheel toy. Hold it up and see for yourself how air can move it.
Stand out in the wind and feel it hit your face. Dry some laundry on the line. Take a ride on a sailboat.
If you drive, check your tire pressure with a tire gauge, then go to the gas station to reinflate any tires that need it.
Oh, and I have a can of compressed air right here in My closet. Great stuff for blasting dust out of computers.
Air is real. We use it all the time. Your god is imaginary, and we have no scientific evidence that shows otherwise.
Oh, and souls are just as imaginary, so stop worrying about ours. They don't exist.
And this is pure comedy gold: "If He didn't divide light from darkness, then people will be working 24 hours a day, no more time to sleep, then you will be miserable."
Yes, folks, that's what blind adherence to Christianity does to the human mind. (And Steven, I love your translation of Ariel's message. Spot on.)
(BTW... What's with the e-mail addresses Ariel forgot to erase from her Godspam? Has she enlisted some equally deluded friends to provide her with raw materials because she's losing this debate so badly?)
To Atheisttoothfairy:
That will be your next assignment. You need to make a research on the Spirit Realm. You have to experience it and get back with me.
You read a lot of crap, that's why your mind keeps on digesting crap.
------
Ariel,
I'm quite curious to know if you are related to our old friend "Royalty", as you come-off much like she does to us.
Perhaps you are Royalty, in sheep's clothing (or would that be troll clothing)?
In any case, you obviously have the mind of a very naive child still.
I don't where someone who is your young age, gets this idea that she can give someone of my generation, a homework assignment on the spirit realm.
First off, you are clearly assuming that the folks you are speaking to here know next to nothing about your bible god.
You also seem to assume that the idea of a spirit world is some new revelation to my existence on this earth...WRONG!!
When I was still as naive as you are presently, I was sure the spirit world existed, along with many other aspects of the unseen/supernatural and extraterrestrial origins.
I have read more material on just these subjects in my lifetime, than you have in total from all your education, within your short lifetime.
So given I have spent plenty of time doing previous research on things like your claimed spirit world and have concluded it does NOT exists, what new 'crap' would you suggest I read to support your spirit world claim then?
I suppose you watch shows on tv that deal with ghost hunters, as documentaries of reality?
Of course, instead of addressing my question about why you don't see ghosts in the daylight, you instead suggest that the reality books I read are nothing but 'crap'.
Where is your scientific evidence for the existence of these ghosts you are so sure exist?
I suppose because you THINK you have seen a ghost(s), they therefore must exist, right?
Did you also conclude that the monster(s) you saw in your closet and under your bed as a small girl, also must exist because you once were sure you had seen them to; as many children tend to do?
There is nothing to research on this ghost matter. Enough research has already been done throughout the ages and it's all come up empty.
I'm sorry to see that you are such a fearful girl that your mind can easily conjure up fictitious creatures/places.
e.g. Ghosts, Gods, Devils, Hell, Heaven etc
If these ghosts were real and your god is allowing them to roam all over this earth, then why do only a small portion of us ever see them and then only under special circumstances?
Why do those who claim they communicate with spirits, never provide us with any information that only could have come from such a ghost?
Why is it that those who carry secrets to their grave and intend to communicate those secrets to the living from the "great beyond", never seem to succeed in doing so?
e.g. Houdini
Some xtians believe one goes straight to heaven or hell (purgatory/limbo to), while other sects believe you just lay dead until jesus decides to make his return.
What biblical option is there that would support your god allowing certain souls to haunt certain places and/or individuals, hmmmm?
Perhaps you saw those ghost either from fear of ghost themselves, or from your fear of death, and your mind found a means to assure you of their existence, by playing mind-tricks on you.
Tell you what Ariel, let's go take a walk at midnight through an old scary looking cemetery and you can point out all those "restless souls" to me, that surely would be roaming those grounds of the dead?
Now either pony up some evidence, outside of hearsay stories of ghost sightings and I'll be more than happy to continue this conversation.
Till then, this ghost case of yours is not only closed, but nailed shut.
There are no ghosts for us to see, nor communicate with, period.
ATF (Who just saw the ghost of Blackbeard the pirate, steal the pot of gold from the Irish Leprechaun, who had just left his last tooth for the winged Tooth-Fairy)
p.s. Come back when you escape never-never land, okay
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Genesis 1:3
"And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness." Genesis 1:4
You forgot to include the 5th verse: 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
By the way, I thought Atheist doesn't reason using the bible, but why did you use Gen. 1: 1-4 in the first place?
Astreja would be mad at you. Remember, she won't accept anything from the bible.
And to Atheisttoothfairy:
What does your pet name implies?
Even if I tell you all the details, you won't believe me. why? because you have not experience it. So, your next assignment is to go to a nearby cemetery in the middle of the night, and do a ghost hunting. You may even meet your Fairy godmother over there. That would be a very nice meeting place. hmmm....come back and report what you have seen.
Operating from a position that the former is true - that "darkness is merely the absence of light"(and it is) - I pointed out to our teen guest that the "Creator God" of the Christian bible, in all of "His" alleged omniscient "Glory", evidently wasn't familiar with this very simple concept, and to illustrate, I provided substantial evidence of its apparent ignorance, by offering the specific Genesis account, which, again, was the following:
"And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God DIVIDED the light from the darkness." Genesis 1:4[bold, upper-case letters, & italics added]
Once more, for the reading-challenged(e.g."Ariel"),
If the bible is the "Divinely inspired Word of the Creator of the Universe", then surely IT would KNOW what you and I know, and that is that, yes, "darkness is the absence of light", and thus, they would NOT need to be DIVIDED from one another. 'Follow?
BTW, the fact that biblegod later-on named darkness "night", and light "day" is totally, 100% IRRELEVANT to the fact that biblegod was ignorant of the knowledge that darkness is merely the absence of light.
In other words, it much more likely that primative man, being totally ignorant to nature and basic science, took a wild guess at how a "God" might've created "darkness" and "light", and further, they took a wild guess as to how this god "divided" the two---this, as opposed to the "Creator of the Universe" being stupid, which of course, is the alternative. Notwithstanding, one or the other must be true......take your pick.
Annoying teen(or adult spoofer) continues...
By the way, I thought [an] Atheist doesn't reason using the bible, [so] why did you use Gen. 1: 1-4 in the first place?
Let the record show that when an Atheist references the bible, it is more often than not, to point out to Christians that the bible is the WORK OF MAN; it is NOT inspired by any "Divine" being.
But honestly, I suspect "Ariel" won't grasp this, or anything else that opposes her position, simply because of how severe brainwashing impairs critical thinking and destroys otherwise healthy minds. I wish her luck with that.
PS: Toothfairy,
I have to agree with you, as "Ariel's" prose - as well as her obstinate rapid-fire retorts - bear an uncanny resemblence to a certain, um, teenaged-Afro-American-cheerleader-from-Texas.(seems like she's gotten even dumber, though)
PS: Toothfairy,
I have to agree with you, as "Ariel's" prose - as well as her obstinate rapid-fire retorts - bear an uncanny resemblence to a certain, um, teenaged-Afro-American-cheerleader-from-Texas.(seems like she's gotten even dumber, though)
Oops, Mr. Intellectual is getting intimidated... :) he's getting personal now.
Let the record show that when an Atheist references the bible, it is more often than not, to point out to Christians that the bible is the WORK OF MAN; it is NOT inspired by any "Divine" being.
Why do you say that the BIBLE is the "work of man". How would you prove that? Why does Astreja get intimidated when i referenced the Bible? Does she recognized the Bible was inspired by a "Divine" being? I'll give you time to discuss that with her.
I can't stand it any longer.
Ariel, to the best of our knowledge, on this planet at least, only human beings have the ability to produce the written word. Therefore all books are the "work of man." Do have some evidence to the contrary?
"Um, what part of "Prove the above statement without resorting to the Bible, apologetics, or subjective personal experiences" did you not understand?"
If the bible is just the "work of man" why does everyone get mad when i reference some passages in the bible? Does that implies that the Bible is divinely inspired?
"Um, what part of "Prove the above statement without resorting to the Bible, apologetics, or subjective personal experiences" did you not understand?"
If the bible is just the "work of man" why does everyone get mad when i reference some passages in the bible? Does that implies that the Bible is divinely inspired?
Oops, Mr. Intellectual is getting intimidated... :) he's getting personal now.
Perhaps if you could contribute something in the way of a reasoned response; perhaps if you could muster up some objective evidence for a "god", we could move forward in a meaningful discussion. Until then, no, I'm sorry, not one single atom of your nappy-headed self intimidates me. Annoy?... sure; intimidate? Nah.
BTW, for your review, here is what I cannot/will not accept as objective evidence:
- feelings or "gut instinct"
- anecdotal evidence(people's personal experiences..i.e..."I saw a ghost!!!")
- revealed knowledge(information handed down in holy books, on slates, cylinder seals, etc)
- self-proofing documents(i.e.."Y" is true because book "X" says it's true, and book "X" is true because book "X" says book "X" is true, therefore, "Y" is true)
- irrelevant analogies(i.e..."you can't see air, but it exists, therefore, God exists too!", etc)
- bare assertions(i.e.."God cares", etc)
- intimidation("all Atheists are EVIL!"..."fear for your salvation!!")
Moving on...
Teen guest(perhaps "Royalty", or someone equally obnoxious) continues, with...
Why do you say that the BIBLE is the "work of man". How would you prove that?
It's not up to me to "prove" such a thing, Royalty/"Ariel". Like we've told you, possibly dozens of times, it's up to the person making the fantastic claim to offer "proof".
FYI, the notion that, somewhere around 2000 years ago, a flying ghost brought the Universe, and everything in it into existence using "ESP", and then commenced to subcontracting a gang of ignorant sand-dwelling fisherman to take dictation for its desires for humankind, is a FANTASTIC claim. Prove it. If you cannot, then I kindly ask you to go away. 'Deal?
You brought the subject then prove it to yourself. Why don't you just make a research on your physics book or archaeology book. maybe you can find the answer there.
If you want I can prove it to you using the Bible, since you said that it's not divinely inspired. I guess you won't get intimidated since it's like getting the info. from a Harry Potter book. right?deal?
BTW, for your review, here is what I cannot/will not accept as objective evidence:
- feelings or "gut instinct"
Does that implies that your testimony is also not acceptable? How can you tell your fellow Atheist that your feelings are real when you don't consider feelings or gut instict as evidence. Oops, that's very contradicting.
Guys, i think Mr. Intellectual Boomslang is a fraud.
By the way I almost forgot:
abiogenesis - Theory
darwin's evolution - Theory
here's the definition of theory:
Theory – an idea formed by speculations; an idea or belief about something arrived at through speculations and conjecture; a set of circumstances or principles that is hypothetical.
Now could somebody give me some logical truths on the origin of life?
You're not the only one seeking the truth here right?
here's the definition of theory:
Theory – an idea formed by speculations; an idea or belief about something arrived at through speculations and conjecture; a set of circumstances or principles that is hypothetical.
---------
Ariel,
You are one confused girl, for sure.
You might want to reconsider your idea of what the word 'theory' means when it's used in a scientific sense, such as the Theory of Evolution etc..
From http://www.fsteiger.com/theory.html
As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.
Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. A clear distinction needs to be made between facts (things which can be observed and/or measured) and theories (explanations which correlate and interpret the facts.
ATF (Who thinks either Ariel is getting outside help in her replies now, or this person is a troll who is enjoying yanking-our-chains)
Your definition of "theory" is a bit thin. Please see a more full definition here: Wikipedia
Regardless of the particulars of current theories regarding Abiogenisis, your implied "God Did It!" supposition actually adds nothing to answering any questions. "God Did It!" is merely giving up on figuring the problem out. It may sound like an answer to say "God Did It" but that really only raises more questions, such as "How did this supernatural entity do it?" "What was the process involved?" "What gave this creative entity its own life?" and perhaps hundreds more questions.
Furthermore, "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer regarding complex science beyond a n individual's capacity for comprehension. People don't like to say "I don't know," but settling for a religious answer to a scientific question seems counterproductive. We don't ask scientists to sort out theological quandaries and paradoxes. It appears silly to rely on religious leaders for scientific answers.
Regardless, when it comes to science that is outside our ability to puzzle out, the answer doesn't automatically default to "God Did It!" Scientific theories must stand on their own. Religious assumptions must also stand on their own. In other words, a lack of evidence on the part of science does not create evidence on behalf of a personal creator. And lack of evidence of a personal creator does not add evidence on behalf of some scientific theory.
Science is not dependent on disproving the existence of any gods or goddesses in order to validate its claims. However, religion appears totally dependent on undermining science in order to support its unproven and unsupportable claims about a magical, immaterial, invisible and non-evidential thing-a-ma-bob called "god."
So, I could care less if science has Abiogenesis figured out or not. It is irrelevant to the discussion. What is relevant is the complete lack of evidence for a magical bearded guy in the sky who is offended if human beings don't have the correct opinions about HIM in their heads. The whole premise of religion just seems infantile and silly.
A theory is a theory and it will remain a theory unless proven right.
Darwin's THEORY of EVOLUTION is still a Theory up to now. Sorry folks, but you have to contend yourselves with the fact that ALL ATHEIST came from a creature called "MONKEY" or "APE".
Ms. Toothfairy, get yourself a picture of a monkey, then you look into the mirror, make sure you hold the picture close to your face so that you can take a closer look if you happen to look like a monkey.
So, I could care less if science has figured out or not. It is irrelevant to the discussion. What is relevant is the complete lack of evidence for a magical bearded guy in the sky who is offended if human beings don't have the correct opinions about HIM in their heads. The whole premise of religion just seems infantile and silly.
This subject matter is relevant to the fact that if "Abiogenesis" is the truth, then I will be the first one to question my FAITH, but unless proven, then I say I am right that there is a God, the creator of the universe.
Furthermore, "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer regarding complex science beyond a n individual's capacity for comprehension.
Then why is everybody jumping into conclusion that there is no God, when the ATHEIST believe "Abiogenesis"? A subject which has not yet been proven?
Missed your comment Sir....:)
Then why is everybody jumping into conclusion that there is no God, when the ATHEIST believe "Abiogenesis"? A subject which has not yet been proven?
Dear Royalty/"Ariel"(at this point, troll),
We've been over this before. You see, you are jumping to the same conclusions---i.e..you are "jumping to the conclusion" that "there is no Allah"; that "there is no Quetzacoatl"; that "there is no Poseiden"...you are "jumping to the conclusion" that THOUSANDS of known gods throughout history are figments of people's imaginations. In that sense, you don't see your rejection of those gods as any big deal, do you? Be honest(if possible)
Okay, now---do you have any evidence for the exception you make for your "god"? No, you don't. Just admit it. You DO NOT have such evidence....at least, we haven't seen any. And just like your ignorance on the matter of how it all began doesn't make the Islamic creation account anymore plausible, our ignorance on the matter doesn't make the Christian creation account anymore plausible.
2) our ignorance on the matter doesn't make the Christian creation account anymore plausible.
3) our ignorance on the matter doesn't make the Christian creation account anymore plausible.
4) our ignorance on the matter doesn't make the Christian creation account anymore plausible.
Got it? Or should I say it some more? In other words, there is a difference between possible, and plausible. Do you think you can absorb and process that? Loosen those braids, girl.
Now where is your evidence on Abiogenesis? it is a theory, sad to say.
I'm totally well informed about my God. Do you want me to give you some verses in the bible? I know you wouldn't mind since you consider the bible "work of man" and not "inspired" by God. right?
How about you? are you well informed about your "creation" theories yet? whew, you have a lot of theories to chose from Sir, tell me which one do you prefer.
As for your little blood-soaked Bible... It is indeed the work of humans.
Some of whom destroyed the communities of My ancestors and My partner's ancestors when they invaded, looted, raped, tortured and murdered members of our respective clans in the name of your imaginary god.
And that, dear deluded child, is why I'm so fucking enraged when you post your scheisse on our website. You are the spiritual descendant of those attackers, and I am not prepared to forgive Christianity until it has paid back all that it has taken from humanity.
You can start paying back your share by logging off this site and putting in some hard time at your local food bank or crisis shelter. Off you go, now!
You evidently cannot grasp what's being said to you, much in the same way you never could grasp anything that was said to you the other times you trolled here.
Royalty(troll),
Like the webmaster already pointed out to you, "abiognesis" is the current working scientific hypothesis. Science doesn't deal in "absolutes"...not now; not EVER. M'kay? To be clear---we, NON-theists, ACKNOWLEDGE that. We acknowledge it.
NOW, are you saying that YOU are acknowledging that YOU don't know, absolutely, that your bible is "Truth"? Speak up.
Remember, you are attempting "tit-for-tat", here---you have implicitly agreed that if no one knows FOR CERTAIN how it all began, then science must plead ignorance. Well, it does. However, you must also plead the same ignorance, because you cannot default revealed knowledge into ABSOLUTE truth. Make up your mind.
If it's chitlns 'n maw for EVERYBODY, then it's the same for you too, dear.
No one here cares what you believe. That's what you don't seem to be capable of comprehending. No one cares even a tiny bit what you believe. You, however, care deeply what everyone here believes, and you want us all to believe what you believe.
Since you have something to sell, sell it! Show us some evidence that what you believe has a basis in reality. Give us some objective evidence that your magical godlett exists anywhere outside your imagination.
Take your time. But if you have nothing to offer, just be honest and admit it. That is, if you are capable of being honest.
Why do you say that the BIBLE is the "work of man". How would you prove that?
--
Ariel,
If you would just take off your god-blinders long enough to read about where your bible 'book' came from, you might realize that your god wasn't the one who wrote it; nor assembled it from all it's many components parts either.
You are of course, aware that not one author of your bible, ever laid eye's upon your worshipped jesus, right?
Not only didn't they write anything in the time jesus was thought to be alive, but there is no evidence that jesus was a walking/talking human being, let alone a god-on-earth.
But that's okay, because you have your great BLIND FAITH, and that's all you need to make a story of fiction into a personal god reality.
Repeat after me: (follow the bouncing ball, if necessary)
"Jesus loves me, cause the bible tells me so"
Now you just forget everything all of us tried to teach you and go right back to mumbling that lyric, over and over until you're sure your jesus is reality.
Just continue to ignore the fact that you have no evidence that your jesus/god is real, or that he ever walked this earth, let alone died for your sins on some stake.
You can be sure jesus is real, because you can feel him in your blood pumping muscle, so nothing else matters, does it Ariel.
FYI.....I've been in a graveyard after dark, more than once in my lifetime, and I NEVER saw a single ghost. Perhaps they were off haunting you and your kindred those nights?
ATF (Who thinks Ariel gives new meaning to the expression, "Ignorance Is Bliss")
Your "reasonings" are annoyingly infantile. You've had your say, so I suggest you move along down the road to stubbornly "reason" somewhere else.
If and when you earn your GED, feel free to return. Until then, bye bye.
OK, I'll give you time to read the bible. get yourself a copy and start reading from Matthew to John.
And don't be afraid to read it, it's just an ordinary book, a "work of man" scripture, as what Mr. Boomslang call it.
What I'm about to say will likely be waste of energy, but...
"Ariel", listen dear, the more you type, the more you exploit your own ignorance. Honestly, you should stop.
Once again - and try to concentrate reeeeally hard(I know, that's a foreign concept) - but, the whole premise behind illustrating that the bible is the work of man, as opposed to being "Divinely inspired", is to drive home the point that there's no reason to regard the bible as anything but the man-made literature it is. Duh? You know, like luke-warm entertainment?...perhaps, a violent thriller with a really crummy plot? In fact, you made a good analogy yourself---we should hold the Christian bible in about as high a regard as "Harry Potter"...which of course, is found in the fiction section.
BTW, did you not get the Webmaster's memo? To reiterate, we don't give a rat's hindquarters what you believe, m'kay? Why don't you go hang out on one of THOUSANDS of christian apologist websites, where there, your ridiculous reasonings will be cherished and extolled. Go on....git!....go hit the buffet...git that chitlins 'n maw afore your brethren git it!
I vote: scrub time.
I gave her the bye bye.
So, did you made your mind now and submit yourself to God? I pray that God will touch your hearts and accept Him as your Lord and Savior.
Thanks for your concern, but I don't feel any compulsion to bow my knee to a mythological sadist who threatens human beings with everlasting horrific torture for simply having the incorrect opinions about it.
Your god doesn't exist, Ariel, and your prayers to it are a waste of your time.
Fortunately, Biblegod is just a dusty old myth and I don't have to sully My hands with pretend god-blood.
Oh, and although there's a slim chance that Jesus was an actual person I'm fairly certain he's dead, buried and rotted to bleached bones by this time.
As for the Holy Spirit... Ever notice that its alleged mode of action ("changing hearts", and free-will negating crap like that) is, in practical terms, indistinguishable from the stuff for which "Satan" regularly gets blamed? You don't suppose...? (At least, *I've* never seen 'em together in the same room...)
In other words, Ariel... No. Fucking. Way. Stuff your religion up your ass.
I didn't get on my knees to pleasure your imaginative deity either Ariel.
Dearest "Ariel",
Shove yourself, and your invisible babysitter, up your ass.
Buh-bye.
"So, did you made your mind now and submit yourself to God?"
---
Why YES ariel, I have.
After watching the cable tv show, "UNIVERSE" tonight, I've finally found my personal god and LORD.
See, they informed us tonight that Saturn is the LORD of the rings, so that 'lord' status makes Saturn a 'god' in my mind.
Did you know that Lord Saturn even has, not one, but TWO 'shepherds' orbiting around it, just like your bible god had shepherds in his flock.
Lord Saturn also made his Sabbath day on SATUR(n)DAY, just like your bible god did way back when.
Best of all, Lord Saturn is composed solely of GAS, just like the words of your bible god.
As Astreja suggested here, I think it's high time to destroy your lord with my better LORD, Saturn.
Heck, I bet my Lord Saturn could ummm, run "RINGS" around your lame bible lord.
ATF (Who thinks this Ariel sheep here, needs a close shearing of her itchy wool)
Boomslang, I pray the Lord will cleanse your mouth and may He heals you from your spiritual blindness. Lord I also pray for Astreja, Atheisttoothfairy and webmaster to surrender their lives to you and recognize you as the One True God of heaven and earth, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Almighty, Loving and Merciful God. Lord I pray that you will touch their hearts and open their eyes that they may see your goodness. I pray for salvation for their families and loved ones too.
Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Alföðr Oðinn! Uncle Loki! Oh, what the heck...
(gets back down off chair, sheaths sword, slugs back a few ounces of mead, and sets up conference call with Dad, Loki, Tyr, Frigga, Freyja, Sif, Forseti, and little brother Thor)
(instant messages folks from other branches of Her vast family, including auntie Tiamat, Shiva, Apollo, Bastet and the Parking Gods)
(fires off quick e-mails to the Invisible Pink Unicorn (mHhhnbs!), the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Kush)
We've got a live one here, folks. Actually thinks Biblegod is going to answer her prayers. It's sad, really... So young, and so horribly brainwashed. Can you think of any possible way We can shock her out of the Christian mind-fuck without doing any more damage?
(listens closely to Her inner voices, nods sagely, hangs up phone)
Okay, Ariel, listen up. In all seriousness, I have no desire whatsoever to be like you, and I would guess that Webmaster Dave, Boom, ATF and the rest of the regulars have similar feelings on the matter.
To us, you serve as a poignant reminder of how naïve and brainwashed we used to be.
And I predict that your prayers to attempt to convert us will ultimately backfire, forever destroying your faith.
Because they will not be answered.
Not now.
Not ever.
May your doubts increase with every failed prayer, until you are strong enough to cast off the shackles of Christianity.
I have no desire whatsoever to be like you, and I would guess that Webmaster Dave, Boom, ATF and the rest of the regulars have similar feelings on the matter.
To us, you serve as a poignant reminder of how naive and brainwashed we used to be.
---
ATF loudly applauds Astreja's thoughts (!!!), hoping little ariel will hear the clapping
He then raises his arms high in the air, striking up today's venue performers; "The Santity Band" and it's "Choir of Reason".
The volcano god's own "Band of Delusion", is quickly drowned out by the new up-and-coming ensemble; that will predominate the foreseeable future.
The opening song, "Echo of the Lost Prayers" soon opens the bear-trapped minds of our visiting christians.
Boomslang then follows with a spectacular solo rendition of "Got Any Evidence for your Gawd"
Someone in the distance is handing out free popcorn. It's soon realized that it's none other, than Stronger Now. ATF yells out, "Hey Stronger, I'll take mine with lots of "Reality Butter" with a dash of "Sin Salt" please.
Xrayman is handing out free X-Rays, clearly showing the human immortal soul, is nowhere to be found in us.
The WEB-master invites any xtians present, to his virtual tent, where he will vanquish the cob-WEB of Christianity from all who enter this tent.
Many new members have also arrived on the scene, helping to ensure this sad mind delusion of religion, is cast into the far reaches of infinite space.
ATF (Who wonders what other songs will be asked for by our members?)
"Imagine there's no Heaven... It's easy if you try..."
*snif*
Dear Lord God in Heaven, we bow down before you and pray fervently in the sweet precious name of your blessed son Jesus, Ariel and I partition and demand you to intercede and take down this lascivious website and my sinful infidel blasphemous blogsite, we know by faith that these things you shall do, because only by faith are things possible, which we know through you nothing is possible.
We also pray to you sweet sweet Jesus that you will unharden and unwax Satans cold heart, that he will bow down before you and have a change of heart and realize that he is already defeated, and change his evil ways, we know that Satan is out there trying to deceive the entire world and he cannot have more power than you because nothing through you is impossible, as stated in your holy book.
We pray to you dear Jesus that you will take this website and my site down as soon as possible (within 24hours or less)to show everyone your unending power and mercy and grace. If any two people agree on any one thing, then thy will be done. Greater things than these shall also be done in your sweet holy name.
These things we ask you in Jesus' sweet holy name, Amen and Amen
Ok, that's the end of this infidel website, and blasphemous blogs like mine, sorry folks it just had to be done, to prove to the whole world that Jesus is more powerful than Satan, we know these things through faith and faith alone.
I'll be back tomorrow to check and see a blank space here and my blog shall be removed from the face of the earth and we shall sing songs and give glory and praise to his precious name on high.
And Satan will gather along with us and Ariel to sing praises to Jesus and all sin and evil will be removed and eliminated for ever and ever.
What a joyous occasion that will be, for by faith, we know these things to be true.
Ariel,
Thousands have been praying for my re-conversion since this website went online six years ago.
Those prayers are failing miserably.
So, we must decided whether a) all those people are praying with wrong motives, or b) those promises about the power of prayer are false, or c) Bible-God is imaginary.
I think it's probably b and c.
What do you think?
So when Christians claim that the God of the Bible created the entire universe, some will ask what seems a logical question, namely ‘Where did God come from?’
The Bible makes it clear in many places that God is outside of time. He is eternal, with no beginning or end—He is infinite! He also knows all things, being infinitely intelligent.
Is this logical? Can modern science allow for such a notion? And how could you recognize the evidence for an intelligent Creator?
Recognizing intelligence,
Scientists get excited about finding stone tools in a cave because these speak of intelligence—a tool maker. They could not have designed themselves. Neither would anyone believe that the carved Presidents’ heads on Mt Rushmore were the product of millions of years of chance erosion. We can recognize design—the evidence of the outworkings of intelligence—in the man-made objects all around us.
Similarly, in William Paley’s famous argument, a watch implies a watchmaker. Today, however, a large proportion of people, including many leading scientists, believe that all plants and animals, including the incredibly complex brains of the people who make watches, motor cars, etc., were not designed by an intelligent God but rather came from an unintelligent evolutionary process. But is this a defensible position?
Design in living things
Molecular biologist Dr Michael Denton, writing as an agnostic, concluded:
‘Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced [twentieth century technology appears] clumsy … . It would be an illusion to think that what we are aware of at present is any more than a fraction of the full extent of biological design. In practically every field of fundamental biological research ever-increasing levels of design and complexity are being revealed at an ever-accelerating rate.’
The world-renowned crusader for Darwinism and atheism, Prof. Richard Dawkins, states:
‘We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully “designed” to have come into existence by chance.’
Thus, even the most ardent atheist concedes that design is all around us. To a Christian, the design we see all around us is totally consistent with the Bible’s explanation that God created all.
However, evolutionists like Dawkins reject the idea of a Designer. He comments (emphasis added):
‘All appearance to the contrary, the only watchmaker in nature is the blind forces of physics, albeit deployed in a very special way. A true watchmaker has foresight: he designs his cogs and springs, and plans their interconnections, with future purpose in his mind’s eye. Natural selection, the blind, unconscious, automatic process which Darwin discovered, and which we now know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life, has no purpose in mind … . It has no mind … . It does not plan for the future … it is the blind watchmaker.’
Selection and design
Life is built on information, contained in that molecule of heredity, DNA. Dawkins believes that natural selection and mutations (blind, purposeless copying mistakes in this DNA) together provide the mechanism for producing the vast amounts of information responsible for the design in living things.
Natural selection is a logical process that can be observed. However, selection can only operate on the information already contained in genes—it does not produce new information. Actually, this is consistent with the Bible’s account of origins; God created distinct kinds of animals and plants, each to reproduce after its own kind.
One can observe great variation in a kind, and see the results of natural selection. For instance, dingoes, wolves, and coyotes have developed over time as a result of natural selection operating on the information in the genes of the wolf/dog kind.
But no new information was produced—these varieties have resulted from rearrangement, and sorting out, of the information in the original dog kind. One kind has never been observed to change into a totally different kind with new information that previously did not exist!
Without a way to increase information, natural selection will not work as a mechanism for evolution. Evolutionists agree with this, but they believe that mutations somehow provide the new information for natural selection to act upon.
Can mutations produce new information?
Actually, it is now clear that the answer is no! Dr Lee Spetner, a highly qualified scientist who taught information and communication theory at Johns Hopkins University, makes this abundantly clear in his recent book:
‘In this chapter I’ll bring several examples of evolution, [i.e., instances alleged to be examples of evolution] particularly mutations, and show that information is not increased … But in all the reading I’ve done in the life-sciences literature, I’ve never found a mutation that added information.
‘All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.
‘The NDT [neo-Darwinian theory] is supposed to explain how the information of life has been built up by evolution. The essential biological difference between a human and a bacterium is in the information they contain. All other biological differences follow from that. The human genome has much more information than does the bacterial genome. Information cannot be built up by mutations that lose it. A business can’t make money by losing it a little at a time.’
Evolutionary scientists have no way around the conclusions that many scientists, including Dr Spetner, have come to. Mutations do not work as a mechanism to fuel the evolutionary process.
More problems!
Scientists have found that within the cell, there are thousands of what can be called ‘biochemical machines.’ All of their parts have to be in place simultaneously or the cell can’t function. Things which were thought to be simple mechanisms, such as being able to sense light and turn it into electrical impulses, are in fact highly complicated.
Since life is built on these ‘machines,’ the idea that natural processes could have made a living system is untenable. Biochemist Dr Michael Behe (see The mousetrap man) uses the term ‘irreducible complexity’ in describing such biochemical ‘machines.’
‘… systems of horrendous, irreducible complexity inhabit the cell. The resulting realization that life was designed by an intelligence is a shock to us in the twentieth century who have gotten used to thinking of life as the result of simple natural laws. But other centuries have had their shocks, and there is no reason to suppose that we should escape them.’
Richard Dawkins recognizes this problem of needing ‘machinery’ to start with when he states:
‘The theory of the blind watchmaker is extremely powerful given that we are allowed to assume replication and hence cumulative selection. But if replication needs complex machinery, since the only way we know for complex machinery ultimately to come into existence is cumulative selection, we have a problem.’
A problem indeed! The more we look into the workings of life, the more complicated it gets, and the more we see that life could not arise by itself. Not only is a source of information needed, but the complex ‘machines’ of the chemistry of life need to be in existence right from the start!
A greater problem still!
Some still try to insist that the machinery of the first cell could have arisen by pure chance. For instance, they say, by randomly drawing alphabet letters in sequence from a hat, sometimes you will get a simple word like ‘BAT.’ So given long time periods, why couldn’t even more complex information arise by chance?
However, what would the word ‘BAT’ mean to a German or Chinese speaker? The point is that an order of letters is meaningless unless there is a language convention and a translation system in place which makes it meaningful!
In a cell, there is such a system (other molecules) that makes the order on the DNA meaningful. DNA without the language/translation system is meaningless, and these systems without the DNA wouldn’t work either.
The other complication is that the translation machinery which reads the order of the ‘letters’ in the DNA is itself specified by the DNA! This is another one of those ‘machines’ that needs to be fully-formed or life won’t work.
Can information arise from non-information?
Dr Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:
‘A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) … It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required.
‘There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this.’
What is the source of the information?
We can therefore deduce that the huge amount of information in living things must originally have come from an intelligence, which had to have been far superior to ours, as scientists are revealing every day. But then, some will say that such a source would have to be caused by something with even greater information/intelligence.
However, if they reason like this, one could ask where this greater information/intelligence came from? And then where did that one come from … one could extrapolate to infinity, for ever, unless …
Unless there was a source of infinite intelligence, beyond our finite understanding. But isn’t this what the Bible indicates when we read, ‘In the beginning God …’? The God of the Bible is an infinite being not bound by limitations of time, space, knowledge, or anything else.
So which is the logically defensible position?—that matter eternally existed (or came into existence by itself for no reason), and then by itself arranged itself into information systems against everything observed in real science? Or that a being with infinite intelligence, created information systems for life to exist, agreeing with real science?
The answer seems obvious, so why don’t all intelligent scientists accept this? Michael Behe answers:
‘Many people, including many important and well-respected scientists, just don’t want there to be anything beyond nature. They don’t want a supernatural being to affect nature, no matter how brief or constructive the interaction may have been. In other words … they bring an a priori philosophical commitment to their science that restricts what kinds of explanations they will accept about the physical world. Sometimes this leads to rather odd behavior.’
The crux of the matter is this: If one accepts there is a God who created us, then that God also owns us. He thus has a right to set the rules by which we must live. In the Bible, He has revealed to us that we are in rebellion against our Creator. Because of this rebellion called sin, our physical bodies are sentenced to death—but we will live on, either with God, or without Him in a place of judgment.
But the good news is that our Creator provided, through the cross of Jesus Christ, a means of deliverance for our sin of rebellion, so that those who come to Him in faith, in repentance for their sin, can receive the forgiveness of a Holy God and spend forever with their Lord.
So who created God?
By definition, an infinite, eternal being has always existed—no one created God. He is the self-existing one—the great ‘I am’ of the Bible. He is outside of time—in fact, He created time.
You might say, ‘But that means I have to accept this by faith, as I can’t understand it.’
We read in the book of Hebrews, ‘But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him’ (Hebrews 11:6).
But this is not blind faith, as some think. In fact, the evolutionists who deny God have a blind faith—they have to believe something that is against real science—namely, that information can arise from disorder by chance.
The Christian faith is not a blind faith—it is a logically defensible faith. This is why the Bible makes it clear that anyone who does not believe in God is without excuse:
‘For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse’ (Romans 1:20).
I was about to ask whether you got all that nonsense from a creationist web site... but then I answered my own question: Here is where you likely found it.
You might try reading some actual science. You'll find it much more rational than this cut-and-paste stuff.
Are you familiar with Talk Origins?
There are millions of books and web sites that discuss actual science. Have you availed yourself of any of them?
Have a nice day.
Try thinking for yourself vic.
How come he had to ask where Adam and Eve were they were hiding? hmmmm?
Vic - "He is the self-existing one—the great ‘I am’ of the Bible. He is outside of time—in fact, He created time."
If god has never been seen, how do you know it's a he? Have you seen his/her genitals?
If god is called the father, then he must have testacies, but why would he need testicals if he created people from dirt? hmmmm?
Dear Vic',
I'd like you to harness the power of all three of your brain-cells, and consider the following:
(on-looking Christians pay close attention, as well)
If biblegod, or any being for that matter, "knows all things", then it would be reasonable to conclude that said being knows the future set of all events, yes? (you either answer "yes", or your premise fails instantaniously)
Okay, goody.......so, if said being knows the future, then said being's free will is bound by that very foretelling of the future, thus, said being's "free will" is limited to what the future holds, because the future is fixed---said being CANNOT interfere, disrupt, adjust, or change the course of these future events, or obviously, said being never knew the future set of events in the first place. 'Get it? It's a blatant CONTRADICTION. You'll have to do better. Can you? I don't have faith that you can do better.
You said:
Okay, goody.......so, if said being knows the future, then said being's free will is bound by that very foretelling of the future, thus, said being's "free will" is limited to what the future holds, because the future is fixed---said being CANNOT interfere, disrupt, adjust, or change the course of these future events, or obviously, said being never knew the future set of events in the first place. 'Get it? It's a blatant CONTRADICTION. You'll have to do better. Can you? I don't have faith that you can do better.
How about you? all you ever say and believe is crap and nonsense.
There is no CONTRADICTION whatsover, it's just your small brain contradicting your small sense of belief.
You are destined to end up who you are and what are right now because you believe so. But if you let God do what He wanted you to do according to your will and His will, will He not lead you to path of righteousness and save you from confusion?
You let yourself fall under the beliefs of people who don't know what is right and what is wrong. What is sensible and not. People who write things which are not proven right.
Make up your mind Boomslang, or you will end up losing your life without knowing the truth. The TRUTH is in GOD and in GOD alone.
Believe in Him now and you will find meaning in life.
Please do not copy and paste extremely long passages like that. Simply provide a link to them. Your original post has been deleted, but I've reposted it here with the link to your Bible verses:
Ariel wrote, "To all of you:
This is really a long passage but I want you to read this so you may know the nature of God. The is the account of Job when God allowed Satan to harm Job to test his faith. I took this from the Book of Job.
Please read it first before you make your comments."
Job 38-42
Thanks.
Please, dear, shut your festering gob; we've had enough of your amateur, smells-like-teen-spirit apologetics, m'kay? You convince no one....and actually, you only exploit your own ignorance with each and every one of your posts. For instance, this time you said...
You are destined to end up who you are and what are right now because you believe so[bold added]
I am destined to end up who I am???? That means, at worst, I have ZERO free will in the matter, or at best, my "free will" is an illusion. Before you attempt to disagree, might I suggest that you revist the definition of "destined".
and then there's this gem...
But if you let God do what He wanted you to do according to your will and His will...
That makes about as much sense as telling a wooden puppet, "Hey puppet!...just let the puppeteer do what he wants you to do!"
Remember, initially you said I'm DESTINED to be a certain way. Now you're telling me I have "free will", but at the same time, that I should "let God" do what "he wanted". Good grief!....make up your "mind", Christian!
Oh, and also, you're now implying that my "will" is either equal to, or stronger than, "God's will".
And you're telling folks that THEY are "confused"? Yoo hoo?....hello, pot?....meet kettle!
Hmmmmm how ironic! I'll just correct your little mistake shall I?
Crap and nonsense = belief in him
You are really confused to the max Boomslang. You end being an "Atheist" because you don't believe in anything that makes sense. You believe in so much garbage..... Garbage in, garbage out. When will you swallow your ignorant pride and get back with reality? Read Job, so that you will understand the nature of God. then get back with me and tell me what you learned about Him.
...kick yourself to the curb.
Any parent who did half the things to their child, that the character God did to Job, in the literary bible, would be imprisoned for life, or given the death penalty.
However, we see the character God in the bible, and why the character God is able to do whatever they want...
Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
It would appear that the character God of the bible is guilty of GIGO, per your standards; I mean, your God character provided the input, and the entire Universe is the output result - that includes all of humanity.
If there is something in humanity or any individual you have a problem with; refer to that which you believe created the Universe and "everything" in it and give credit based on that belief.
Let's see... You're the one who thinks that substitutionary atonement via blood sacrifice is a good thing, right?
Except that this particular 'sacrifice' was merely the loss of a long weekend, whereupon the bogus victim "undeadened" himself and went right back to being a god. (As Brother Jeff would say, "Glory!")
And all because a couple of people who didn't yet know any better ate a piece of fruit off a magic tree.
Ah. This is obviously some strange new definition of "reality" that I wasn't previously aware of.
Read the Book of Job then get back with me. And Astreja, you used a lot of foul words, get a mouthwash, gargle and spit out the dirt on your foul mouth. It's too stinky and i can smell it from here.
And talking about reality? what do you believe about reality? Did you just exist for no apparent reason? Think about that, people just don't live ang die without any purpose in this world.
...people just don't live [and] die without any purpose in this world.
Right! Finally, you say something accurate, albeit, inadvertently. Bravo.
Okay, firstly, "purpose" is NOT determined by quantity of life; it is determined by quality of life, and the latter is determined by the individual, not invisible beings or religious text. If you cannot see, or find "purpose" in 50, 60, 70, 80, etc., years, I suspect you are not going find it in an "eternal amount" of years. In other words, dear christian, if merely "existing" isn't purposeful enough in this life, it doesn't really make much sense to think that this will change if you were to keep on existing after this life. Duh?
Did you just exist for no apparent reason?
I came into existence for the same reason you, and everyone else did---your biological parents had sexual intercourse. Had they not, you wouldn't exist. But you'll tell us that our "souls" were "created" before we were conceived, won't you? 'Funny, I bet you don't remember anything before 18 months old, do you? No, of course you don't, because there ARE no "souls", dear. You've been lied to.
Read the Book of Job then get back with me.
No, I won't "read Job", because in context, it is sandwiched between an over-flux of religious parables that, AGAIN, have no evidence of having a referent in reality. In other words, dear...talking snakes; swimming hammers; fiery chariots; healing disease with bird's blood; witch doctors; firmaments; zombies; unicorns; giants; whale-stomach-'motels'; virgin births....and on, and on, and on, ruin the credibility of "Job". So, screw "job"; screw "Christianity"; screw "Yahweh & Co; screw the "bible"; screw you.
Beat it.....scoot, scram, shoo!
Webmaster, I wonder if the IP address isn't from Texas? Hmmm
I exist solely to do things. Things of My own choosing. Things that provide direct and indirect benefit to Myself and the people around Me.
Not to kiss the ass of your murderous invisible friend.
Not to waste precious life-time running around in terror of some imaginary afterlife punishment.
Your religion stands in the road between humanity and a better future for all who live on this planet. If I have sufficient power in Me (and I suspect that I do), I *will* run it down.
Repeatedly and relentlessly.
Till it's as dead as the long-gone authors of the Bible.
And you, by posting juvenile and self-righteous nonsense, are helping fuel that vehicle. Takk fyrir!
Could you please tell where I "cursed" or used profanity in my last post? Again, I feel it's that reading comprehension problem taking its toll.
So, screw "job"; screw "Christianity"; screw "Yahweh & Co; screw the "bible"; screw you.
Beat it.....scoot, scram, shoo!
Now who's lying now? who's cursing now?
Mr. Boomslang, as an individual, what is your purpose in this world, besides waiting for your miserable death after several years without any hope for eternal life? And what quality of life are you talking about?
And for your info, there's no witch doctor, virgin birth whatsoever in the book of Job, besides it's not religious my dear, it's just another book like Harry Potter so read it, it's free, you can even read it in front of your monitor right now. do it now and it will enlighten you. Then you will know your purpose in life... :)
To Boomslang:
Could you please tell [me] where I "cursed" or used profanity in my last post?
Could you please tell me what this inquiry pertains to, and/or, why you feel it's relevant? After all, I didn't accuse you of "cursing" or using profane language, and to be honest, I don't give a rat's ass if you choose to do so. The language that one chooses to dialogue with has zero relevance as to whether a "god" exists, or whether there's "purpose" in one's life, or not. Please stick to the facts....no, wait...scratch that----please go away.
Troll: Again, I feel it's that reading comprehension problem taking its toll.
Are you really that unoriginal that you must mimic the people you are conversing with? Clearly, you are the one who lacks the ability to absorb anything that's being said to you.
Let's review: Where's the objective evidence that substantiates your biblegod's existence? Thanking you in advance---although, I think we can safely count on getting about anything BUT that evidence, at this point.
Troll continues...Mr. Boomslang, as an individual, what is your purpose in this world, besides waiting for your miserable death after several years without any hope for eternal life?
Please notice, you insipid teenie-bopper, that you ask me a question but then attempt to answer it for me, in part, by projecting your own pathetic, short-sighted, religious views on to me/us. How typical.
I've told you; Astreja's told you, that we create our own "purpose" in life...i.e..we do things that provide enjoyment; we avoid harm, and harming others, and we love our friends, families, and household pets. Notice, Christian droid, that NONE of that requires belief in "gods", nor hope of living forever in the clouds--- that's your baggage; not ours. Again, quality has nothing to do with quantity...with quantity...with quantity...with quantity.......
Now, is there a chance any of this will penetrate your cranium? There isn't, is there?(rhetorical)
Troll...And what quality of life are you talking about?
I've told you already, and I'm not repeating it.
Troll goes on....And for your info, there's no witch doctor, virgin birth whatsoever in the book of Job, besides it's not religious my dear, it's just another book like Harry Potter so read it, it's free, you can even read it in front of your monitor right now.
No, I won't "read Job", for the reasons I explained previously. And besides, I hate science fiction.
Troll...do it now[read Job] and it will enlighten you. Then you will know your purpose in life... :)
No, I'm sorry, superstition does nothing for me. In fact, part of my "purpose" is to weed-out superstition, and keep doing it until the day I expire. In your case, the day you expire will be the day you're "cured".
Your religion stands in the road between humanity and a better future for all who live on this planet. If I have sufficient power in Me (and I suspect that I do), I *will* run it down.
Wow, what's so special about you that you just sprout in this planet called Earth like a mushroom and roam this world say for 50 more years and die? tell me?
and you're talking about this murderous invisible being? why do you say He is murderous, if you don't believe that He exist? so it means you recognize him that He exist and that everything that happened in the bible is true. Ok Astreja, read some more books in the Bible then you will believe even more, deal?
I, like all other sentient beings in this universe (including yourself), am a Creator of Ideas.
And ultimately, I feel that transmission of ideas is a vastly more reliable form of "immortality" than hoping to be whooshed up onto a cloud for a sing-song with an invisible planet-drowning filicidal maniac.
Ultimately, part of what I'm thinking at this very moment will find its way down to future generations. If I leave only one thing to that future, I will that it be the desire to continue dismantling all ideas that pose a danger to humanity.
Ideas like Christianity.
"and you're talking about this murderous invisible being? why do you say He is murderous, if you don't believe that He exist?"
I don't think that the god of the Bible is real. You, however, do. In order to debate you on a level playing field I suspend My disbelief just long enough to ask the question "Well, if the god of the Bible were real, would I want to worship it?"
The answer is no.
Unequivocably no.
I find the character of the deity described in the Bible to be disgusting, morally indefensible and pretty damn stupid, to boot.
And you are either fucking ignorant of the contents of your own Bible or willing to make excuses for a hypothetical being that allegedly murdered millions of people and animals to enforce its reign of terror over this planet.
So that makes you either frightfully undereducated or a potential enabler of genocide.
Pick one.
you said:
And you are either fucking ignorant of the contents of your own Bible or willing to make excuses for a hypothetical being that allegedly murdered millions of people and animals to enforce its reign of terror over this planet.
you said "allegedly" murdered millions? why do you say that? it means you are not sure, right? you keep on saying " murderous invisible being" but you surely believe he's not real and he doesn't exist. So, why do you believe that this being killed "millions" of people if he's not real? can a non-existent being do such a thing? I don't think so.
Astreja, I don't know what you believe. make up your mind girl. You don't believe in him but you believe he's a murderer??? very conflicting....i think you are a very confused girl. I tell you what to do, go and ask a medium to see if this being is true or not. Then you can finally settle your confusion. deal?
The Bible claims there was a flood that covered the entire planet.
However, the geological record indicates that such a flood never happened.
There were much, much smaller floods in the Tigris/Euphrates delta several thousand years ago, and it was probably one of these local floods that got mythologized as the flood story in the Mesopotamian Epic of Creation. This, in turn, was borrowed by the peoples of Western Mesopotamia / Eastern Mediterranean, and eventually the story shows up in the book of Genesis.
However, if the Bible story were true, the god who caused it would be a monster unworthy of respect or worship.
And if you actually believe in the flood story and still think that the god you worship is 'good', your sense of right and wrong is really, really messed up.
So there's the 'hypothetical', spelled out in terms that even a kid like you should be able to comprehend.
"Astreja, I don't know what you believe."
Let's just say that I don't believe any of the bullshit mythology that some irresponsible adult pounded into your head, Ariel.
I *do* believe that Christianity is a poison that threatens humanity. The beliefs are false, but believers are doing real harm to our civilization right at this very moment.
May you learn enough about your religion to reject it before you waste any more of your life in the sheep pen.
you keep on saying " murderous invisible being" but you surely believe he's not real and he doesn't exist. So, why do you believe that this being killed "millions" of people if he's not real? can a non-existent being do such a thing? I don't think so.
-------
Astreja,
I keep trying to decide between two choices, when it comes to this "ariel" here.
Perhaps you can assist me in deciding which is true?
1. Ariel is a most naive, short-sighted, and closed-minded teenybopper fundie xtain, who's concept of debating is confined to within a very limited one-dimensional framework.
----OR----
2. Ariel is a troll (who is most likely an adult male), who's primary intent here is to play-this-dumb, in order to screw with our 'heathen' heads.
Is it really possible, that someone with an IQ even a little bit over "room temperature", could fail to understand the difference between, you not believing a god exist in our reality, versus, some mythical god performing some cruel actions, as part of a fictional storybook plot?
Is it possible that Ariel see's the characters (and their actions), as being real in the Harry Potter books to?
I've often wondered if the many folks who write letters to the TV stations, to offer heartfelt advise to some soap-opera fictional character, actually believe these TV acting scenes to be occurring in the real world.
If I ever had any doubts that such folks exist, Ariel has just removed all doubt from my mind on that little mystery.
ATF (Who is going with choice #2 here, until credible evidence shows otherwise)
She appears to have been brought up in a literalist environment that has severely crippled her capacity for abstract thought such as "what-if" scenarii.
And I suspect that on a few occasions she's posted contributions from friends or possibly the youth pastor at her church.
Prognosis for this young woman: Not good. If she persists on this path, the cognitive dissonance of unanswered prayers will cast a pall over the rest of her life and inhibit her potential.
If she honestly explores the history of her cult, however, she may yet escape to reality. And I hope to Me that's the road she chooses, because that's her best bet for finding her true self.
She [ariel] appears to have been brought up in a literalist environment that has severely crippled her capacity for abstract thought such as "what-if" scenarii
---
Astreja,
If you are correct about Ariel, then I find it terribly SAD that such a young impressionable mind, is being severely handicapped with dogma from a fictional world. A world, that all of us here were lucky enough to eventually escape from!!
I just browsed through some of her posts in this thread, and I agree that someone is parroting to her what she should say to us.
e.g. her dialog about "Can anyone see the air" etc..
If she is "as she seems", then she seems deeply stuck in a single train of thought, where everything in her very limited experience of life, MUST point to the existence of her god.
I find it hard to believe (if she is real) that she is forming these posts all on her own.
I wouldn't doubt one bit that she is showing some our comments to her xtian associates, who then help her form a reply back to us.
Her style of writing, along with the content of her post, vary too much to have come from a non-troll, single mind; especially from a mere teenager.
I would suggest that whether ariel is a troll or a deeply deluded teen xtian, it's obvious from her previous posts that she has no intention of discovering the truth of reality, but instead is hell bent on trying to find fault with our denial of her precious jesus-god.
Troll or Teen, ariel is obviously giddy in her god-delusion.
Just as it is with drug addicts, god-addicts such as ariel, can never see the harm the drug is doing to them until they are ready to do so.
Until they do, anyone who tries to remove them from their addiction, will be seen by them as evildoers.
ATF (Who wonders if Ariel's god, lives under-the-sea?)
You mean, Sponge-god Squarepants?
ATF (Who wonders if Ariel's god, lives under-the-sea?)
You mean, Sponge-god Squarepants?
-----
Now Boom',
You really should give a guy a WARNING, when you're going to post something that makes me laugh so **HARD**, that I almost spit out my coffee all over the darn keyboard [g].
That all said, I would have to agree with you that "Sponge-god-Squarepants" would make the PERFECT god for Ariel.
He's "square", like her god-box world she is stuck inside of.
He wears the "pants" in her life, so she can do-nothing and think-nothing, without his 'blessing'.
He's made of "Sponge", and what better substance to scrub a god-brain with, than a "God of Sponge"
ATF (Who has to remember to not drink coffee, while reading some folks post here)
The 3 musketeers are back, with a vengeance... :)
I think everyone understands my simple English, so everyone understands my point here.
Now, don't be muddlehead here, make up your minds guys, all of you guys are confuse, especially Astreja, a very confuse lady, i should say. You read a lot of mythology books girl, that's why your small brain cannot digest any truth.... :)
I think everyone understands my simple English, so everyone understands my point here.
Here's what I understand so far, from what you call your "English":
Since your arrival on this thread, you have given us an unceasing barrage of sophomoric evangelizing, idiotic reasoning, and logical fallacies. Nothing more. We've seen nothing even close to resembling a well-thought-out, logically-sound argument for your invisible biblical babysitter. More recently, you cannot even grasp the simple concept of a hypothetical analogy, despite having it spelled out for you in simple, easy-to-understand, terms.
Once more---we don't believe in your biblegod, and most of us don't believe in any other gods. 'Got it? If we refer to your "Holy book", it is only for sake of argument; it is only to illustrate that even IF the saddistic, jealous, petty, perverted, murderous, racist "God" existed - as delineated in the pages of the Christian bible - it would not be worthy of our worship; it would not be worthy of the title "God".
Understand now, young rady?
ror!(raughin' out roud)
Then why is there so much hate in you, if you don't even believe that God exist? you are pathetic Boomslang, I tell you what to do, slap your face for me several times and say, "I am a pathetic, idiot and ignorant person and i'm gonna die without hope and nobody will remember me when I die".
har!har! har! I am raughing out roud here....ror... :)
Jeeeeeeeeesus, NOW who's got hate in their heart!?! That's not a very christian thing to say to someone ariel. Slap slap, NASTY christian. Shame on you.
Your faith must be pretty damn weak if you can't even maintain a modicum of self-control when dealing with us poor benighted heathens.
Oh, and this...
"I am a pathetic idiot and ignorant person and i'm gonna die without hope and nobody will remember me when I die"
Pure projection.
This, folks, is Ariel's deepest fear -- The very thing that she uses her bogus 'faith' to push away. She's afraid of death and doesn't yet have the life experience to comprehend that meaning and purpose belong to this life and no other.
There will come a night, young one, when the doubts will overwhelm you and the contradictory nonsense you've been taught will no longer be enough.
You will lie awake in your bed and cry out for your god to help you, and you will not receive an answer.
And then you will realize that, all these years, you've been lying to yourself.
May that day come swiftly, so that you can grow beyond it and live the rest of your life in peace and happiness.
Jeeeeeeeeesus, NOW who's got hate in their heart!?! That's not a very christian thing to say to someone ariel. Slap slap, NASTY christian. Shame on you.
wow, who's talking? You have the nerve to say the name of Jesus, when you don't even believe or recognized him. Another pathetic being on the other side of the planet with no hope. I told Boomslang to slap himself so he'll know what is the truth and the truth will set him free. I don't intend to tell him to slap himself for no reason. That's for his own good.
Oh you do make me laugh you venomous little thing. I don't think you are a christian at all are you? You're just trying to sound as crazy as one!
And most revealing, I also don't see her acting as if she has a loving "spirit" living in her chest cavity, as Christians would have us believe. I mean, consider her latest "rebuttal", a ridiculously misinformed and distorted view of non-believers, a view which she would evidently love to project on to every non-believer whom she cannot quickly convert with her amateur ministering:
"I am a pathetic, idiot and ignorant person and i'm gonna die without hope and nobody will remember me when I die".
I have to wonder, is this what the missionaries told little Ariel when they spread their religious meme to her country? Or does Ariel's contempt for non-believers come from another source? Hmmm...
Who knew christianity could be so damn sexy!
Thanks for the tip ariel
Well, how could she, Boom? In Christianity and all other "believe-or-suffer" memes, 'love' is an unattainable concept rendered null and void by the incessant fearmongering. If she honestly believes the crap she's been told about Hell and sin and evil-from-birth humanity, she is likewise incapable of feeling or demonstrating love as we understand it. (In My opinion, the best such a person can muster is brief periods of guilt mixed with religious intoxication. Not love.)
So, when Ariel tells total strangers to slap themselves, she's merely revealing the ugly truth about her sadomasochistic belief system.
And reminding us -- Once again -- That Christianity is a blight upon humanity.
And what do you know about Love?
I know what love is.
God= Love, Love = God
Look at 1 cor. 13.
And then you may say again, why did your "murderous" invisible being killed those Amalekites? because they don't believe in God and they curse Him. that's my simple answer.
These people are cursed, heathen, unbelievers.....but God sent His Son Jesus Christ to redeemed man from curse and sin. it's not too late folks and He's coming back very soon for all believers to be raptured in the blink of an eye and be with Him forever. Unfortunately, unbelievers will be left on this world.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In a sudden and unannounced instant, all those who have died will rise from the dead and will be gathered along with all living believers to meet the Lord in the air. At this time, their bodies shall be changed as they receive new glorified bodies (I Thessalonians 4; I Corinthians 15:51-52).
All of these believers will then be taken to heaven (John 14:3).
With all Christians suddenly disappeared from the earth, the world will be plunged into a terribly destructive seven years of tribulation (Daniel 9:27; Revelation 6-18). During this time, Russia will invade Palestine (Ezekiel 38-39) and a world-wide dictator will arise - the Anti-christ who will mandate that all must receive his mark on the forehead or on the hand (Revelation 13).
Jesus will return with His saints and will divide between the just and the unjust in a judgment of "sheep and goats" (Matthew 24-25). The "sheep" will be ushered into His kingdom while the "goats" will be cast into hell.
Jesus will begin a 1000 year reign from His throne in Jerusalem (Revelation 20:4-6).
At the end of that time, the will be another rebellion against God's rule as Satan is loosed upon the earth. Fire will come from heaven and devour them and a final judgment shall take place in which all heaven and earth is destroyed (Revelation 20:11-15).
A new heaven and a new earth will be instituted which shall exist forever (Revelation 21-22).
it's up tp you guys to believe these passages in the bible, you can check them out yourselves.
Back in my Xtian days I was taught that once I made a choice for Jesus, he would never let me out of the palm of his hand.
If this is true, how then could he have allowed me to start asking the kind of questions that lead to my de-conversion?
Surely he knew that my questions would lead me away from the faith?
If he is so worried about my eternal soul, and if he loves me the way the Bible claims, how could he have failed me in the way he did. If the Bible is true, surely I should never have been able to de-convert. Surely I should still be in his hand? Once I started asking reasonable questions, why not a reasonable answer? Instead I received as many opinions as pastors and Christians I consulted. Not a squeak from God.
I do not understand how a loving God can sit by and watch one of his children turn away from him because his Religion/Relationship just does not make sense anymore, knowing full well that said child is heading for eternal damnation, and not intervene. I required nothing spectacular, just straight answers.
If God knew this was going to happen, and being all knowing, he must have known, why did he give me a) an enquiring mind and b) not provide the answers to the questions I so desperately needed. How does such a God punish his children for not understanding? Born into a sinful nature I did not choose, told to believe something I do not understand and then sent to Hell for all eternity because I dare to question? I suspect we have been set up for failure by an all knowing and all loving God. Or he just does not exist.
I am not sure whether there is a God of some sorts out there. I do know for sure that if there were, this God would not be bothered whether I worship him or not. I suspect some quantum type force would more be like it. Definitely not the emotionally unstable God we were conned into worshiping and feared for so long.
I suspect that Astreja can, and will, answer for herself.... but in the mean time, here's what I know: "Love" is a verb, as well as a noun. Anyone...repeat, ANYONE, can show affection, and acts of kindness to another individual, and not necessarily believe in a deity, or an afterlife. 'Got that?
Obnoxious teenie-troll continues...I know what love is. God= Love, Love = God.
No, 'dead-wrong. Love = Love. "Love", the emotion, exists independently of superstition, and religious beliefs.
Teenie-troll(pretending like she hasn't heard a word we've said), recommends...
Look at 1 cor. 13.
No, you insipid wench, we won't read that verse, because we don't believe the bible is the inspired of word of the "Creator of the Universe." 'Got it? WE DON'T BELIEVE IT. We're still waiting on your evidence for your biblegod, BTW.
Troll...And then you may say again, why did your "murderous" invisible being killed those Amalekites? because they don't believe in God and they curse Him. that's my simple answer.
Yes, yes, that's correct!...it is "simple" to sit there and mindlessly affirm what you already believe is true. Okay, so, f%cking fantastic! If the Creator of the Universe feels that he must "kill" all non-believers....then LET. HIM. DO. IT.
Yoo hoo? Come and get us, "God"....show your followers what "Love" means; prove to "Ariel" that you are really the macho-man "God" that her holy book says you are. 'Waiting......and please, don't dawdle, let's get this over with..come KILL me!
Troll...These people are cursed, heathen, unbelievers.....but God sent His Son Jesus Christ to redeemed man from curse and sin.
Yes, yes...we heard it the first 250 trillion times. And guess what? We DON'T BELIEVE IT. If your "God" doesn't like my "sins", then it can come "kill" me, which of course, "killing" is presumably a "sin". So, by the looks of things, I guess the Creator of the Universe doesn't like to lead by example, huh? Clever.
In a sudden and unannounced instant, all those who have died will rise from the dead and will be gathered along with all living believers to meet the Lord in the air. At this time, their bodies shall be changed as they receive new glorified bodies (I Thessalonians 4; I Corinthians 15:51-52).
Rise from the dead? Are you telling us this with a straight face? You are talking about ZOMBIES; you are talking about science FICTION. Those things can't, and won't, ever happen. You've been lied to.
I'm really sorry that the missionaries spread the Christian meme to your country, because evidently, it's got you believing irrational things, but it's still not too late.
Troll...All of these believers will then be taken to heaven (John 14:3).
Great!! Fantastic! Wonderful! Marvelous!....go hang out in the clouds with the rest of your flying-zombie-brethren, and you all can look down, and Glorify "God", as he kills all non-believers. Good luck with that!..have fun! Praise gawd!
Troll gives hope....With all Christians suddenly disappeared from the earth..
' Promise???
Troll continues...the world will be plunged into a terribly destructive seven years of tribulation (Daniel 9:27; Revelation 6-18). During this time, Russia will invade Palestine (Ezekiel 38-39) and a world-wide dictator will arise - the Anti-christ who will mandate that all must receive his mark on the forehead or on the hand (Revelation 13).
Hmmmm....I don't suppose you have any evidence that any of this will actually happen.....do you? No, of course you don't; you are simply parroting your holy book.
Troll.......it's up tp you guys to believe these passages in the bible, you can check them out yourselves.
Yes, yes, it's up to us---thank you for that. Okay, well, we reject it, because there is not one scrap of evidence outside the bible, that the bible is the inspired "Word" of any "God".
Kung pao!
I do not consider the Bible to be a reliable guide to Life, the Universe and Everything. At age six and a half I clearly recognized it as fiction. Forty-four years have passed, enough to both confirm that perception and provide Me with even more reasons to despise Christianity.
Such as the behaviour of various Christians who are daily interfering with the rights of people in civil society.
I personally know a fine young man who was physically assaulted by classmates because he didn't go to their before-school prayer group.
Likewise, My own daughter was called a 'devil child' when, about ten years ago, she revealed to a classmate that she was not a Christian.
I and My partner were participants on the GLBT side of the Canadian same-sex marriage debate, and as the whole world now knows, we won. Same sex marriage is legal in Canada now, but none of us should have had to actively lobby Parliament and file suit in the courts in order to obtain something that should have been available to us all along.
I have had Jehovah's Witnesses insult the memory of My grandfather. I have been harrassed on the street, in shopping malls, and at My own front door by various evangelicals.
My partner's ancestors were terrorized and their communities decimated by the invasion and war-crimes of Charlemagne and the European witch-hunts. My own ancestors were disenfranchised and forced to convert to Christianity by Olaf Tryggvason.
And 'God' is not love. The god of the Bible is one of the most hateful, violent, undependable and outright idiotic characters ever rendered in print. As you, yourself, said...
"And then you may say again, why did your 'murderous' invisible being killed those Amalekites? because they don't believe in God and they curse Him. that's my simple answer."
That is not love. That is murder. Genocide perpetrated on an entire community in the name of another community's beliefs. If the Amalekites were real, and were in fact destroyed in such a manner, it was the believers who committed the crime. Your imaginary god is merely a convenient excuse for mass murder, and it certainly sounds like you agree with the concept of killing people for non-belief.
As for your "Jesus is coming soon" nonsense, I predict that you and I both will go to our graves without experiencing such an event. Jesus, if he was a real person, died nearly two millenia ago. The flesh has rotted off his now-lost bones.
And the book of Revelation is just plain silly. Dragons and lambs and beasts, oh my!
Get lost, Ariel, and take your cut-and-paste scheisse with you.
We have recieved reports from various concerned members of the public that you have stopped taking the medication we prescribed for you during your stay at fundie sanitorium.
Your behaviour of late is of great concern to us. Your delusional ravings about people rising from the dead, the anti-christ and visions of satan prove to us here at fundie sanitorium that you are currently experiencing a psychotic episode of religious fervour.
This can be cured by an intensive therapy we call de-bullshitting. It's quite simple really, right now you are full to the brim of religious bullshit, hence your bizarre rants and irritating overuse use of bible quotations.
A rigorous programme of de-bullshitting would normally set you on the right track, however, I fear you have reached danger point as your grasp on reality seems tenuous to say the least.
So come in number 777, your time is up. We have a nice comfy padded room for you and if you play your cards right we might even let you wear one of our special jackets... you crazy little nutcase you :)
You said:
If God knew this was going to happen, and being all knowing, he must have known, why did he give me a) an enquiring mind and b) not provide the answers to the questions I so desperately needed. How does such a God punish his children for not understanding? Born into a sinful nature I did not choose, told to believe something I do not understand and then sent to Hell for all eternity because I dare to question? I suspect we have been set up for failure by an all knowing and all loving God. Or he just does not exist.
God will answer all your inquiries/questions through the Bible. He will also send somebody to you to answer your questions like your friends, Pastor, even your family or a total stranger. He will also answer you through dreams and visions. But most of all every answer to your questions are all in the Bible. That's why the Bible is there for us to read.
All of us have questions about God and His nature but what matters is God is God and He is the source of Truth. "God loved us so much that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. We have to work on our salvation everyday Mr/Ms. Searching as long as we are here in this world. There will be a lot of doctrines and false teaching along our way but we have to be strong and have faith in the Lord. We can't and won't understand everything but we don't have to know everything. God is in control and He will show us the way.
You said:
Hmmmm....I don't suppose you have any evidence that any of this will actually happen.....do you? No, of course you don't; you are simply parroting your holy book.
Ok just to give you an example:
Israel became a nation again:
"the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it." (Deuteronomy 30:3-5)
In Isaiah 43:5-6, the prophet said that the people of Israel would return to their homeland from the east, the west, the north and the south. Isaiah lived 2700 years ago. Beginning at that time, a succession of empires conquered the land of Israel and forced many into exile. This led to a worldwide scattering of Jews. But, during the past century, millions have returned to Israel.
From the east: Many Jews living in Middle East countries moved to Israel during the 1900s. After Israel reclaimed independence in 1948, more Jews moved to their ancient homeland after being forced out of various Arab countries in which they had been living for centuries.
From the west: During the mid-1900s, hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the West (Europe and the United States) began moving to Israel to escape various persecutions, most notably, the Holocaust in Nazi Germany.
From the north: Hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the former Soviet Union have moved to Israel since the 1980s.
From the south: During the 1980s and 1990s, Israel struck a deal with Ethiopia's communist government to allow Jews of Ethiopia to move to Israel. On the weekend of May 25, 1991, for example, 14,500 Ethiopian Jews were airlifted to Israel.
Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the north (Russia) and the south (Ethiopia) would have to be persuaded to allow their Jews to move to Israel. Many countries pressured Russia for years before it began to allow its Jews to leave. And Ethiopia had to be paid a ransom to allow its Jews to leave.
Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the Jews would return "from the ends of the earth," and Isaiah said that many centuries before the Jews had been scattered to the ends of the earth. During the past 100 years, Jews living as far east as China, as far west as the West Coast of the United States, as far north as Scandinavia, and as far south as South Africa, Australia and South America, have moved to Israel.
it came to past that Israel became a nation again on May 14th, 1948.
Regarding the European Union:
Daniel foresaw the unification of Europe into a superpower. Rome was at one time the greatest capitol in the world. Today Rome is a capitol amongst several European nations that have now merged into a superpower -- they have formed the “EU,” the confederation of the European Union. On May 1, 2004, ten new nations officially entered the European Union. The prophet Daniel foresaw the rise of a dictator of a ten-nation confederation with its headquarters in Rome.
These are just a few but I'm afraid Webmaster will not allow me.
I used to believe all of this with all my heart. And then I actually started reading the Bible. Not just the fuzzy bits with sugar on top, but all of it.
Honey, once you actually start reading with all your brain cells firing, you will be amazed at how many contradictions and falsehoods the Bible really contains. And don't fool yourself, God speaks to no-one.
The only answers you will ever get is from using your own head. No Deity involved whatsoever.
Other than the Bible, there is no credible documented proof anywhere that even suggests that Jesus existed. The authenticity of all four Gospels are in constant dispute. The Bible contradicts itself constantly with regards to the very nature of this God of yours.
Taking all of this into account, I choose reason. You may very well choose fiction. I suspect it makes you feel safe and secure. To each his own.
Re: "Israel became a nation again:"
..it came to past that Israel became a nation again on May 14th, 1948.[bold added]
Israel became a nation in "1948". Okay, so what's the problem?...didn't the "Prophet" KNOW the exact date?..could he not foresee the exact day, month, year? Why not?..what's your excuse? Run along to your preacher and ask him, because it is evident that you are having your "answers" spoon-fed to you, one way, or another.
The prophet Daniel foresaw the rise of a dictator of a ten-nation confederation with its headquarters in Rome.
Uh huh...'any reason you didn't reference the verse/chapter of this alleged "prophecy"? I think there is--and that reason is, because a good dose of Christian bias is necessary to see the vague, symbolic imagery in these alleged "Prophecies", as coinciding with today's current events.
So?...why are these "predictions" so vague? How does one get "empire", from "head of gold"? It's called creative shoe-horning. BTW, if the "Creator of the Universe" is so keen on "symbolism", then maybe "heaven" is symbolic, too....not literal.
'Sky's the limit, in Christianity....all you need is earplugs, blinders, & "faith".
You said:
Other than the Bible, there is no credible documented proof anywhere that even suggests that Jesus existed. The authenticity of all four Gospels are in constant dispute. The Bible contradicts itself constantly with regards to the very nature of this God of yours.
You are wrong. the 4 gospel supports each other and there is no conflict at all. You just clearly implies that you don't read the Bible. Give me some examples of conflicts in the 4 gospels if you dare.
To Boomslang:
Read Daniel Chap. 2. for the rise of European Union.
And duh, Mr. Boomslang, before 1948there is no nation called Israel. We were trying to prove that the Bible is true when it clearly states that Israel will become a nation again. And it came to past.
You have to accept your defeat Boomslang. You have no more excuse, none whatsoever. Could you find any book which predicts Israel becoming a nation again? none.... :) it's only in the Bible.
Ariel, at the time that verse was written, Israel was already a nation, and it was already having trouble with its enemies. Proof, once again, that you don't know your own bible. You are simply focusing on what's being spoon-fed to you, verse-by-verse, and attempting to learn it "as you go". That is dishonest, although, you are beginning to see the lies now.
But let's give you the benefit of the doubt---please provide the verse that has the exact date "May 14th, 1948.
First of all, tell your friends to post under their own names rather than just cutting and pasting the apologetics they give you. It's patently obvious from the writing style that many of the words you post are not your own. Either have *them* come on here to talk to us, or properly attribute the source.
Secondly, even if the four Gospels were in total agreement (and they most certainly are not), that would not make them true. Four people can sit together in a room and agree on the details they want to put into a story, or three people can write stories based on someone else's earlier version. That does not make them true.
Finally, are you aware of the concept of a self-fulfilling prophesy? If people think something is going to happen, or want it to happen, they can easily make it happen. No gods required.
That is precisely why the Christian "end times" mythology is so dangerous. A bunch of crazed believers could actually cause the end of the world, and in fact there are people who are that fucking insane.
Don't become one of them, please.
No you don't know the Bible.
Read your History Boomslang.
After it was conquered by Ottoman Empire, the jews were scattered around the world, the region became Palestine and ruled by Muslims and later on by the British empire. Palestine was divided by jewish and muslim regions but there's is no separate nation solely for the Jews. The Bristish mandate came to an end in 1948 during the re-establishment of the nation of Israel. And this rebirth of Israel was foretold in the Bible.
If I go to the local land-fill and startle a flock of grazing seagulls, chances are, they'll eventually come back when I leave. It doesn't take any great feat of clairvoyance to "prophesy" such a thing. In other words, the fact that the jews came back and established their country, eventually, doesn't impress me in the least. However, what would impress me, would be if you could find, and reference, the exact biblical "Prophecy" that gives the exact date, May 14th, 1948. I'll even settle for just the year.
Let's be honest, a person who presumably speaks through "divine" inspiration would know this information in detail. If you can provide said biblical passage, then I'll be impressed, and possibly even reconsider my position(about "prophecy"). Waiting.
A prophecy is not a prediction of the future - it is a promise about the future. God gave promises to His prophets. He told them, for example, that the Jews would be forced out of Israel, scattered worldwide, persecuted worldwide, and that they would eventually return to Israel. All of these promises have been fulfilled.
There are different kinds of prophecies. Some prophecies are about a Messiah, which means "anointed one" or "chosen one." These are called "Messianic" prophecies. Christians believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of these prophecies. There also are "end time" prophecies. These prophecies refer to a time of war, famine and pestilence, after which a Messiah will reign over the world with justice and righteousness. Christians believe that this Messiah is also Jesus, who will return in the future.
Boomslang, read the passage below which was explained by Grant Jeffrey a bible scholar.
Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established.
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here's a summary of Jeffrey's explanation:
1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.
2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.
3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.
4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.
5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.
Ezekiel 4:3-6
(In this Bible passage, Ezekiel is asked by God to symbolically act out the 430 years of punishment)
… Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel. "Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. "After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.
It really is futile, you CANNOT win an argument as to the existence of a super power with people who recognise your belief as a fantasy world of your own design.
I'm just hoping that as you continually bash your head against this particular brick wall you might knock yourself out at some point in the not too distant future.
It is people like you with your fear of anyone different that causes so much hatred in this world.
Your god is a fallacy and your posts are the gibbering ravings of someone so indoctrinated by a false belief system that they no longer have any grasp on reality.
Wake up!
Assuming for one brief instant that your rather bizarre time-warping formula is accurate... What if the date for the establishment of the modern state of Israel was deliberately chosen to be in line with that moldy old prophesy? Again, no gods are required. All that's needed is a handful of cynical power-brokers pretending to do Biblegod's work so that they can herd gullible believers for fun and, um, 'prophet'. :D
Oh, and you didn't respond to My earlier observation that you seem frightfully eager to defend the murder of non-believers. What's up with that? How can the curses and incredulity of mortals possibly hurt an omnipotent god? (And why do religious communities have lethal hissy-fits trying to defend the honour of their invisible friends?)
This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel
-----
Ohhhh, I wouldn't jump on that 1948 bandwagon, just so fast miss ariel.
It's not as clean-cut as you seem to think it is.
For anyone interested in reading a debate on this prophecy, go to this link.
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/jftill/prophecy/Ezekiel4.html
The best material starts about 2/3 down this very LONG debate page.
Here is a sample of why the math in this so called prophecy doesn't hold water.
Thus when Ezekiel predicted that the punishment of the house of Israel would last 150 years [days] and that, contrary to what Jeremiah thought, the punishment of the house of Judah would last 40 years [days], he was predicting, as noted above, that repatriation of the two houses would happen about the same time. As time passed, however, it became obvious that the exiles from the house of Israel had not been gathered back to their homeline within the 150 years predicted by Ezekiel, so a later editor changed the 150 days to 390. That time, however, has long passed too, and the exiles of the house of Israel or the northern kingdom remain the lost tribes of Israel. Hence, rather than being an example of amazingly accurate prophecy fulfillment, Ezekiel 4:5-6 is an example of a prophecy that failed miserably.
There is plenty more to digest in this debate, if one has the time to do so.
ATF (Who thinks the prophets of old cheated, just like our modern prophets do today)
Precisely, and there are many more of such failed "prophecies".
Bottom line: If a person who is presumably being "coached" by an "omniscient" intelligence can allegedly foretell, or if you prefer, "promise", a certain future event, then they, too, should have access to an accurate timeline. So what...?...the "Land of Israel" eventually declared its independence, and it became "Israel", for short. Whoopty-f%cking-shit.
Also noteworthy---the name "Israel" was simply taken from its orginal name, "Land of Israel". Further, the majority of Jews are still "scattered" to this day; the majority of them do not live in "Israel".(ref:wikipedia)