God: a figment of the imagination

Sent in by Ziggy Blacktail

I grew up in a secular home (my parents are lapsed Catholics but that's beside the point) so the religion was never pushed on me. I remember back in the fourth grade when someone told me about the truth about Santa Claus, I didn't cry (yes, I believed in Santa Claus until I was 10. I mature slower than most people). I remember thinking it made perfect sense. I applied the same concept with God and felt the same.

I started to doubt Atheism during the last two years of college and decided to give Christianity a chance. A couple of factors caused my doubts and pushed me into Christianity. First, I had a girlfriend at the time who was Catholic. She surprised me when I first learned this because she seemed normal...normal in a sense that her opinions weren't limited to the confines of a certain book and she wasn't fanatical about her beliefs (do bear in mind, I never knew anyone personally who believed in this religion growing up). This led me to asking questions about her religion that she was happy to share. Another factor was my college education. As an English major, I encountered biblical references in almost every literature class I took. This led me to start reading the Bible. These two factors brought me to ask Jesus into my heart as they say in Christianese. I settled on the sect of Catholicism (yes, I believe Catholics are Christians despite what some Protestants think) because my girlfriend and my family background was supposedly that (I vaguely remember doing something Catholic when I was eight involving first communion). I read up on it and became interested in it and joined the Newman Center during my last year at college. I also joined a Non-Denominational Protestant ministry that one of my roommates in my last year at college was the president of and encouraged me to go when I told him I believed in Christ.

Although I enjoyed doing things in both ministries, it wasn’t long before I started doubting Christianity. My belief in Christianity started falling apart after my girlfriend and I broke up. We were in a long-distance relationship and it was impossible to see each other. In addition, I was interested in another woman who went to the Newman Center at my college. Although she felt the same about me, she gave me the "let's just be friends" after our first and only date. It was around this time when I realized that a) I can't figure out what God wants from me because I thought he wanted me to be with either woman at some point...or even be friends with them for that matter ( I don’t talk to either woman anymore – they both estranged from me) b) I never heard God speak to me but he seems to speak to everyone else (I never considered the option that people were faking it).and c) I started feeling like I was cursed because it seemed like God didn't care about my needs despite what I've read in the Bible. I also started doubting some of the teachings of Catholicism (like Peter being the first pope even though James was shown as the leader of the first church in Act 15).

I fell away from Catholicism a few months later and tried non-denominational Protestantism for a brief period. my roommate and people in the other ministry were all too pleased to convert me when I ranted about it with them. I confused my emotions here with what God wanted for me. I quickly ended up hating non-denominational Protestantism more than Catholicism. While I did enjoy the richness and depth of the Catholic mass until I grew more and more inattentive during the masses, the non-denominational mass (or service as they put it) was nothing more than a two hour ego-stroking session by their pastor who I swore preached the same exact thing about "you just have to have faith" the two times I there and nobody said anything. I could've tried the other 30,000 sects of Protestantism, but I started to ask myself why are there so much sects? Why did God allow all of these sects to form and thrive despite them having conflicting theologies? This never bothered me before during my Catholic, I believed in the Vatican II doctrine that salvation is possible outside the church and I didn't start questioning the belief until this point.

This led me to believe Christians don't have their act together at all and God must be nothing more than a figment of their imagination. If God is real, then why all the confusion? And why won't he speak to me still and tell me clearly what he wants from me instead of having me confuse what he wants with my self-delusion? I started noticing around this time the reason for the many sects may have something to do with Christians being selective readers. (Just look at Calvinism vs. Arminianism. They use different passages in the Bible to back up their claims.) This eventually brought me to question if Jesus really is the Jewish Messiah and wondered if the passages in the Hebrew Bible used to support him in the New Testament resulted from selective reading by its writers. I looked at certain passages with a more critical eye like Isaiah 7:14 and noticed it was predicting the birth of King Hezekiah in its original context and the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 seemed to refer to the same servant in Isaiah 41 (identified as Israel).

I lost my faith after those readings. I denounced all three members of the Holy Trinity and God did nothing to stop me. He didn't punish me for me it either. I’ve returned to my former Atheist viewpoint since feeling more at peace with myself. One last thing I should mention is some Christians argue that Christianity is not a religion but a relationship. Even if that's the case, relationships require open communication and making me play guessing games is not open communication. This made me realized I was right in first place -- he was never there. A brick wall would make a better deity because I can see it and know it won't do anything for me.

Well, that concludes my deconversion story. Accept it or leave me alone.

77 comments:

Danny Tuason said...

Dear Ziggy,

When I was a kid I too believe in Santa Claus. My brothers and I hang our socks on the wall expecting Santa to fill them up. One day in the 60s, one of my brothers told me Santa was make believe. I said "What?". Then I started to question my other brothers. They all said the same thing. That was my worst Christmas ever...period. I was devastated. Santa Claus was like Mickey Mouse...a fantasy. Later in life (only recently...please read my deconversion story), I also realized the Bible God is also a fictional character...a figment of our imagination. I was also disappointed. It's actually a bittersweet moment. I guess I am okay with it now. I am free from the shackles of Christianity. That's great. But also there's a bitter taste of reality...like for example the great possibility that this is it...the only life you and I will have...no more. It's sweet that there's no hell for anyone. That's great! and on and on and on....

Peace!

Danny

liniasmax said...

Hey Ziggy,
I accept it! L

Astreja said...

"...Relationships require open communication and making me play guessing games is not open communication."

Well said, Ziggy!

toxic said...

I mature slower than most people as well, I was still playing with He Man figures when I was 14!

Anonymous said...

Hello there my brother Ziggy,
i read your testimony, i did. My brother listen to me, you are now trapping yourself into the worldly shackles of atheism and reasoning. God listenes to us, he speaks, but have you ever paid attention. My brother, our lord is an awesome god and in submission to him we would find peace and freedom. Satan has a strong hold over you. God does not exist as santa clause and please do not call him an ' figment of imagination' no matter what you call him, and no matter what you say, he LOVES you, more than anybody else. All you have to do is talk to him. I know that you are elder than me, but listen, i was caught up in a pool of sin at atender age, and was beyond redemption. But GOD saved me, and today i feel his love, inexplicable love. He is our awesome god and yes he is waiting for you to come back. I will pray for you but just for the sake of a girl who spent an hour reading over your testimony, for once, read the bible, Psalm 91, ( you wud have read)but as yet please please read it again. Brother just listen NOTHING COMPARES TO THE PROMISE WE HAVE IN HIM.PLEASE COME BACK TO CHRIST, HE BLED FOR YOU. HE WANTS YOU.Read acts 9 you would know the power ofour mighty god. You have got nothing to lose, satan is very clever in luring the children of god away from him.God loves you my brother, come back.
we could talk more- mail me martinaanandam@yahoo.com. Iam awaiting your mail.

Yule Goat 2 Hell said...

Dear My Sister Anonymous:

Please grow up and stop believing in fairy tales like satan and jesus. You have trapped yourself in a world of childish superstition and no one here is going to take you seriously.

(Though it will be fun to sit back and watch the hilarity that ensues as rational people tear a few holes in your - ahem - "logic.")

Satan's Plumber said...

... for the sake of a girl who spent an hour reading over your testimony ...

An HOUR? Really? It took an hour????

Uh-uh. I think I see the root of her problem right there.

Well, I can certainly see why she's a believer.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Satan's Plumber quoted anon
"for the sake of a girl who spent an hour reading over your testimony"

--
I think I figured it out, Satan's Plumber.

Because Ziggy's testimony was surely inspired by satan himself,
with each devil line that anon read, it was necessary to chase the devil from the computer room.
Chasing the devil away takes lots of TIME, especially if one gets gored by his horns in the process and then has to ask gawd to quickly heal them back up. So this reading one line, then hand-to-hand combat with the devil, getting healed and repeating (like shampoo directions), eats up tons of time for sure.

Surely you aren't implying that anon would actually need a whole hour to read this, if the devil wasn't right in the same room speaking heresy thoughts into the believer's ear, right?


To:martinaanandam
"You have got nothing to lose, satan is very clever"

I suggest that satan (or god) doesn't need to be very clever at all.
A VERY MILD dose of deception would be all either would need to muster up, to fool most of you non-thinking BLIND xtians.
This of course, assumes either of those super-powers actually existed, which all of us here are SURE do NOT and you can't offer one shred of non-emotional proof to show us otherwise, now can you martinaanandam????

martinaanandam, I know many folks who believe in things like: daily alien visits, bigfoot, the loch ness monster, NDE's, anything paranormal, not to mention all those other great gods one can choose from.
There is no more tangible evidence for ANY of these things, than there is for your xtian Jesus, so tell me then, why choose this fairy tale belief over so many other's, one can delight in?

Could it be you chose the xtian fairy tale because it was the one you were exposed to at a young tender age....Nah, how could that possibly be the reality here.

Surely you're correct about your Jesus and those of us with brains that can't THINK, are deceived by your cute devil in the red suit, carrying his red hot pitchfork.


AtheistToothFairy

sillywhispers said...

"...Relationships require open communication and making me play guessing games is not open communication."

That simple observation is profound. Thank you Ziggy!

rickyusvi said...

Ziggy Blacktail wrote: "Well, that concludes my deconversion story. Accept it or leave me alone."

Martinaanandam: can't you read???

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

Martinaanandam: "God does not exist as santa clause...

You're sorta right. IMO, Santa Claus is not Yahweh, but one of Allfather Oðinn's manifestations.

(At this point, the irascible Ms. Odinsdóttir raises a glass of mead to Dad) Skál!

"i was caught up in a pool of sin at atender age, and was beyond redemption..."

No, you made bad choices or lived in bad circumstances, then used religious mythology to inspire yourself to do something about it.

Nothing more, nothing less. Be proud of what you have accomplished in your life.

May you realize that you are the architect of your own destiny, Martinaanandam, and dump the good cop/bad cop mythology.

Ziggy Blacktail said...

Hello there, Anon. With regards to Satan, the Christian God created him. If I don't believe in the Christian God, then I don't believe in his servants, the angels either fallen or good. I notice some Christians act as though if you don't believe in God, then you still believe in the things that he created. The whole Christian universe disappears when I choose not to believe in God anymore, not only God disappears and everything else stays. If you want to believe Satan has bounded me, then so be it. Just don't let any physical or psychological harm come to me for it.

Anonymous said...

Why do you guys insist on hating the thought of a God? Does it comfort you to know that there isin't a hell?? Have you had an experience that made you think " God hates me, I'm going to get him back"? Ofcourse, everything I say you guys will give me a counter sample...But one day, we will all be face to face with God. I grew up in a christian family; hated going to church..my parents were actually pastors, and I would sit in the back of church making fun of other preachers. I grew up not walking in the ways of God, but one day, when I was 17..I was driving home, I broke down crying..and for some reason felt horrible shame in the way I viewed God and the way I acted. How could I have done this to someone that loves me more more than my own parents? That died for me?? I confessed my sins and gave my life to christ...About two months later I thought I was just havign an emotional experience, until the day I got aptized I found an arrow head, ( I got baptized in a lake on my farm) I didin't exactly think this was God talking to me right on the spot..but I went ahead and got baptized, it was a great experience. When I got back home, and was reading bible versus I came across this bible verse found in Isaiah, and it goes like this " Listen to me oh islands, and pay attention you peoples from affar, the Lord has called me from the Womb, from the body of my mother he named me, and He has made me a select ARROW, he has hidden me in his quiver. Now, guys you can say what you want, but God spoke to me that night, in an obvious way. God does love you, and I honestly believe everyone believes in God no matter what they say...I have had so many other experiences with God that I would love to share with you guys....Have a good one!!

Astreja said...

Anonymouse squeaked on September 18: "Why do you guys insist on hating the thought of a God?"

Because we see people worshipping something that we have been unable to communicate with or otherwise detect. We have therefore concluded that these people are wasting their lives chasing a fantasy.

"But one day, we will all be face to face with God."

Interesting hypothesis. Face to face with the same god for which we could find no evidence? Why doesn't it just show up now and dispel all those nasty rumours regarding its nonexistence?

"I broke down crying..and for some reason felt horrible shame in the way I viewed God and the way I acted."

Indoctrination from your childhood.

"I honestly believe everyone believes in God no matter what they say."

You are in error. I, myself, do not believe in the god that you worship. There are others here who feel as I do. Your statement is equivalent to accusing us of lying, and that will not get you very far here.

fjell said...

Anonymous of Sept 18th (choosing a username is very simple and doing so helps avoid confusion, so please do)

You have stumbled upon a website populated by those who didn't get sent magic arrowheads.

fjell

ATF said...

fjell wrote:
"You have stumbled upon a website populated by those who didn't get sent magic arrowheads. "
--
Hey fjell,

You "didn't get the memo" either?

The one containing the magic arrowhead.
Guess there's a few of us who missed that god memo...shucks

ATF

Anonymous said...

First of all im not accusing you guys of being liars...second of all, why are all you guys always in a defensive stance?? You never want to hear anything someone wants to say about God?? Always wanting PROOF. It is a walk of faith. By the way..I take it you believe in evolution (obviously, did you know that your founding father ( Darwin) was training to be a priest? do you know that creators of your theory still believed in God?? Did you know that the books they wrote have refferences to God?? So either way you look at it, there is a God.

fjell said...

Anonymous proclaimed: You never want to hear anything someone wants to say about God.

Are you serious? Do you know on which website you find yourself? We used to BE the ones telling everyone about "God".

Would you please, Anonymous, at least grant us the trifling notion of our having been Christians?

That would be great. Thanks.

fjell

stronger now said...

Anony, pick a name.

boomSLANG said...

Anony de jour: First of all [I'm] not accusing you guys of being liars...

First of all, yes, telling us that we secretly believe in God, "no matter what we say", is to implicitly tell us that we are lying to ourselves, when ironically, it is the Theist who believes on "Faith", who lies to him or herself.

Anony' continues: second of all, why are all you guys always in a defensive stance??

Because we're sick and tired of Theists insisting that their respective gods exist, yet, not having the evidence to back it up. Meanwhile, this earth, which is ours too, is becoming a battleground for opposing "Faiths". ***This is why "faith" is dangerous---because people can kill other people and essentially not need a reason, since neither side can prove what they kill for. "Faith" is immaterial; it is a non-reason. It's the absence of reason.

Anony' asks: You never want to hear anything someone wants to say about God??

You never want to hear anything someone wants to say about Allah?

Anony'-non: Always wanting PROOF. It is a walk of faith.

Let's review. See here*** above.

Anony': By the way..I take it you believe in evolution

By the way, I take it you believe in gravity? Nonetheless, the theory of evolution is both theory and fact; creationism is neither. We at least witness evolution on the micro scale. Conversely, we don't witness creationism on ANY scale.

Anony': ...do you know that creators of your theory[of evolution] still believed in God?? Did you know that the books they wrote have refferences to God?? So either way you look at it, there is a God.

The statements, "there is a God".... and "Jesus Christ is Lord", are two completely different things. Would you care to bridge that gap with some evidence?

Anonymous said...

Yes, I know you USED to be christians, as I said before, there has to be something that made you stop believing. You see guys, all these discussions lead to the dame thing, " proof" I cant prove to you that God exists, and I mean Jesus Christ for whoever wanted me to specify that. If I told you that I have heard Gods voice speak to me, would you believe me? Ofcourse not, you would say that I was schizophrenic, or was just hearing things. You never take into consideration what people say. One night I was reading the bible and came across the verse on how God spoke to people through wind, and I wondered to myself " how could this be?" He speaks through burning bushes? now wind?? Sure enough as I was laying down I heard a gust of wind rush through my window, and it spoke to me, ofcourse you guys wont believe me...But thats just another experience I'll tell you about, just like the arrow head. And by the way, you dont need a "magic arrow head" all you need is an open heart-----jeremy

fjell said...

Wait. I want another crack at this. Proceeding à la boomSLANG on this one, just for kicks.

Anonymous belched: First of all im not accusing you guys of being liars...

Yes you are.

Anonymous asked: second of all, why are all you guys always in a defensive stance??

What do YOU do when someone else straps on a belt, breastplate, shield, helmet, sword and then comes at you with them?

Anonymous asserted: You never want to hear anything someone wants to say about God??

Are you kidding? We wanted to hear EVERYTHING we could about "God" for decades. We soaked it up like sponges. Like mops. We crammed it into our hungry minds and "hearts". Invested in apologist training courses. God for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and midnight snacks. If anything, you might say we O.D.'d on "God". Got to end of the package. Ate the last one.

Anonymous admonished: Always wanting PROOF.

We're crazy like that.

Anonymous instructed: It is a walk of faith.

So is THIS. Now what?

Anonymous added: By the way..I take it you believe in evolution (obviously,

No. Why?

Anonymous farted: did you know that your founding father ( Darwin) was training to be a priest?

My founding what?

Anonymous attempted: do you know that creators of your theory still believed in God??

What's my theory again?

Anonymous puked: Did you know that the books they wrote have refferences to God??

Now you've lost me. Who are you on about?

Anonymous hoped: So either way you look at it, there is a God.

Either way I look at what?

fjell

stronger now said...

Jeremy,


If I were to tell you that aliens speak to me thru my toilet flushing then would you even consider it with an open mind?

Do you consider what other religions have to say with an open mind?

Do you consider what muslims have to say? How about hindus(sp?)? Do you consider how the mormons came to their beliefs?

No, of course not, you would say that they were schizophrenic, or was just hearing things or were misled by satan. You never take into consideration what people say.

Now go and open YOUR mind!

fjell said...

Dear Jeremy,

Let's stop pretending, shall we? You don't have the slightest interest in "what made us stop believing."

Don't you at least find it interesting that we were once exactly like you, trying to convince everyone around us that Jesus Christ is the son of the one and only true God, that he was born of a virgin, died for the sins of the world, rose on the third day, and that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life...?

Can you actually conceive of the fact that, years ago, all of your words were our words? I don't think you can actually conceive of this.

But even this is not the point.

The point is that you fail to grasp how we now - presently - come to accept what we value as true or even just LIKELY.

I want you to think about something: if you seriously want us to inhale your assertions about arrow heads and the gusting of wind and consider them "evidence" of a direct communicae you've had from "God", please tell us why would shouldn't simultaneously accept these sorts of stories and anecdotes from Muslims and Mormons.

Simple enough, isn't it? If you would like me to find you some such stories from people who believe that these were the transmissions of radically different "gods", I will only be too happy to do so.

fjell

.:webmaster:. said...

"Something made you stop believing"

Nothing made me do anything. However, if you are interested in learing the reasons the webmaster left Christianity, click here.

Oh, and I had some experiences very like the ones you describe. And I too once firmly believed God was communicating directly with me. I know exactly what you are talking about. However, I have since come to the embarassing conclusion that I was only deluding myself.

eel_shepherd said...

It oughtta be the law around here that if a passing Xtian witness doesn't pick a username then whoever wants to name him/her gets to be the one to "stake their claim" on that person's username. (Be forewarned, passing evangelists, there are lots of fish in the sea, know what I mean?)

However, Jeremy saved (or was saved???) himself from such a fate by choosing the username Jeremy. Dang, and I had one all lined up for him too.

Re: the arrowhead story:
"...He [this would be god] has made me a select ARROW, he has hidden me in his quiver. Now, guys you can say what you want, but God spoke to me that night, in an obvious way..."

Ah, but which god? Isn't it more likely that it was the Great Spirit of the natives? Presumably this was a stone arrowhead made by some long dead native, and not some high-tech tungsten tipped number bought at Nevada Bob's last year. Who's to say that all that prior programming of yours didn't cause you to co-opt a true message from the G.S. and credit it to biblegod instead?

Also, the story about breaking down crying in the car and finding yourself halfway across town and not remembering the drive etc. is a fairly common one, in all religions. Which is not to say that it doesn't happen; I believe that the vast majority of these reports are true accounts alright. But their very ubiquity is their main strike against them. People of all religions just graft the religion that they're familiar with onto a known phenomenon, along the lines of near-death experiences. Maybe the latent content of the experience has value, but the particulars could definitely use a second look.

Anonymous said...

Seriously im not accusing you of being liars, and I think its hilarious how you all take everything I say and put it into other meaning. Its alright though, I knew from the start that nothing I said would convince you guys, I give you credit for the toilet sample, that was funny...You see, that is exageration, my experience actually happened in the bible. Answer this truthfully, are you guys trying to find the right path?? Because even the most famous atheists say they are...anyway, its been nice talking to all you guys, seriously...Good luck
P.S- listen to your conscience--jeremy

.:webmaster:. said...

To too-stupid-to-click-the-radio-button-labeled-"other"-and-post-under-a-pseudonym-anony-bot:

If you already KNEW your message would be rejected, then why bother wasting your time?

Did you even bother to read my testimonial, or was it too much trouble?

I do follow my conscience. That's why in all good conscience I had to leave Christianity after 30 years of faithful service. It hurt like hell, but it was the right thing to do.

Sheesh. What is with all these ignorant Christians lately?

stronger now said...

Jeremy,

The "toilet sample" was a question, one that you didn't answer. One of many you didn't answer. So, if you refuse to answer our questions, why should we answer yours?

cyber.phunkified said...

Eat some mushrooms or mescaline and you'll hear voices. . .those voices have a chemically based reality, and hence are more "real" than some "the wind blew and god spoke to me" bullshit. Funny how the "drug demons" (yes, a christian actually told me that psychoactive mushrooms are "drug demons") tend to show me how inextricably one with the world I am, and encourage me to treat others with respect and love.

Anonymous said...

Hah you guys make me laugh...I did answer your toilet sample why dont you read my comment?? And ofcourse someone was going to come up with the conclusion I was taking drugs..just because you dont want to accept the fact..so in other words, one christian that called mushrooms a drug demon, means all christians do are crazy like that??Generalizing..another thing atheists tend to do a lot...I mean seriously read the "testimonials" posted on the main page..about pastors doing this and that...What are you trying to do?? Other than give religion a stereotype..You even have your own site.."exchristians.net" The name alone is childish...If your an atheist then who cares?? You guys can't even have a normal conversation...Its always taking statements made from others and twisting them to make them look bad...I mean, if coming on this site every day and seeing that there are angry people just like you that hate christians makes you feel better, than thats your choice, go for it...By the way, No one answered my question on evolution?? ofcourse, they came out with a serious of sarcastic questions...If you don't believe in creation thats one thing...But even your founding fathers, someone said " my founding who?" being stupid, knew exactly hwat I meant...I meant Evolutionists like Darwin, lyell, hutton, Etc...obiously you havent heard of the other two because in their theories...they reffer to a higher power that gave possibility to evolution...Jeremy

stronger now said...

Jeremy,

NO. You didn't answer the "toilet sample" question as it was posed to you. You dismissed it and gave reference to YOUR experience. That's not what I was asking you for. Read the question and answer it, then I will start answering yours.

The question was:If I were to tell you that aliens speak to me thru my toilet flushing then would you even consider it with an open mind?

You dismissed it by saying it was an exaggeration. So is your answer a NO? If so, then why do you not consider it and still expect us to consider what you have to say?

Anonymous said...

Ok, No, I wouldn't believe you. Now, answer mine-jeremy

stronger now said...

Jeremy,

You asked many questions. I'll start with this:
"By the way..I take it you believe in evolution (obviously, did you know that your founding father ( Darwin) was training to be a priest? do you know that creators of your theory still believed in God?? Did you know that the books they wrote have refferences to God?? So either way you look at it, there is a God."

We are many. Some may not believe in evolution. I don't believe in evolution, I accept it as the current best theory for the diversity of life because it is backed by scientific evidence for it. But if another theory comes along that explains it better and has more and better evidence then I will reject evolution in favor of THAT. Others may feel differently, you'd have to ask them.

Yes I did know Darwin was training to be a priest. So what? That fact doesn't falsify evolution nor does it give evidence for supernatural beings. So either way you look at it, there still no reason to believe in flying zombies.

So, You have shown us that your mind and heart aren't open to the believing that aliens are talking in the flushing of a toilet or allah or any number of other religions that you and I both reject. I reject them and yours because they claim supernatural beings exist and show no good evidence for them.

So, by what criteria do you reject all other religions?

Steven Bently said...

[I think one thing that confuses people when using the 'other' button is, when you have typed in a responce in the comments section and then press the 'other button, it immediately drops down to the bottom of the page, giving the appearance of having been lost] it doesn't move on the 'anony' button

---------------------------------------
Now, to address the arrow sent by god analogy.

What you found jeremy is the remnants of an earlier civilization of human beings that were practicly almost completely destroyed from the North American continent by the White European Christian settlers, the one's that the Christians called savage infidels and did not believe in the settlers Christain god.

The Native Americans who previously owned this entire land mass, was stolen and taken away by murder and by the imposed will of your make believe god of the bible.

Those Indians were 'Human Beings' they were not infidels nor savages, they were real 'Human Beings'

Just as the Muslims call Christians infidels and devil worshippers, their mission is to kill all Christians infidels.

A Christian never has the right to say that the Muslims are wrong to come over and kill all the Christians, because the Christians came over here and killed most all of the North American Indians and stole their land.

So now how does it feel to be called an infidel in the eyes of a Muslim?

Praise Be To Allah, the only true god!

P.S. I have over 400 arrowheads that I found near here, this also proves that I am right about the previous land owners, and it was not xtains.

I'm not convenced of evolution, but I am convenced of 'no one knows for absolute certain, and neither theory can be proved 100%, no one knows how we got here and why, that does not mean to me that the unknown reverts back to a god, as it did to the people that wrote the bible, thinking that they have solved all of lifes riddles.

.:webmaster:. said...

Jeremy,

Do you parents know you are on this site? If not, please tell them. They might not approve.

Thanks.

Astreja said...

Jeremy: "First of all im not accusing you guys of being liars..."

Once more for the folks in back: I, Myself, do not believe in your god. You claimed that "everyone" believes "no matter what they say". In other words, you are claiming that I and other non-believers are lying about our disbelief.

"Why are all you guys always in a defensive stance??"

Um... Because, virtually every day, some idiot drops us a love note telling what we think and how terribly, horribly wrong we were to stop believing in the god of the Bible.

As if we could somehow will ourselves to believe in something that now appears to be utter bullcrap.

We're perfectly sane and reasonable people if (and only if) you approach us in a reasonable fashion. However, I'd estimate that 90% of the proselytizing visitors don't even read our stories before they start in with the usual "You don't know what you're missing!" nonsense. It gets old real fast.

"Always wanting PROOF."

Yup. Hand over a genuine certified god forthwith, or the religion gets it. :-D

jeremy said...

No, honestly I am not going to sit here and try tell you guys that you are all going to hell, I hate it when people talk like that, let alone you guys I bet you hate it even more..I don't blame you. If you want to believe what you believe go ahead, I have no problem with it.I just stopped by to give my testimony; thats all. As far as " stronger now" compares my experiences with a toilet, I mean to me that sounds a little bizarre, but if thats what you want to go by then thats fine, the reason that my experiences where so intimate with God(jesus christ) was because they happened right after I got done either reading about it in the bible, or later just randomly coming to a verse that applied directly to that situation. I'm not going to tell you how to live your lives, I have no problem with atheistic people, I actually have friends that are, so please...don't take this as an offense

Jim Arvo said...

I second every syllable of the reply by "stronger now".

Well put.

stronger now said...

Thanks Jim, I can't tell you what that means to me!

Jeremy,

Yes, you gave your testimony, and then you came here to spout your preconceptions and insult us by doing so.

Remember these:

"You never want to hear anything someone wants to say about God??"

"You never take into consideration what people say. "

" I knew from the start that nothing I said would convince you guys..."

"...I mean, if coming on this site every day and seeing that there are angry people just like you that hate christians ..."

"Evolutionists like Darwin, lyell, hutton, Etc...obiously you havent heard of the other two..."

Then remember this one:

"Generalizing..another thing atheists tend to do a lot..."

So who is doing the generalizing?
Who is the hypocrite?

Run along now.

jeremy said...

I'm sorry you took offense to the things I said, I shouldn't have said some of the things I did. Now, look at some of the previous posts that were posted by you guys...Hopefully you'll be straightforward like me and admit that your posts sounded way angrier than mine. I hope my testimony atleast spoke a little bit to you, you seriously don't have to ajnswer this..but I honestly think they did..And I have more experiences too, which I'll be glad to share with you, but I won't unless you ask, because I do not want to cause anymore conflict...Nice talking to you bud, have a good life
-Jeremy

Astreja said...

Of course our posts sound angry, Jeremy!

We are angry!

In between wasting large portions of our life in pursuit of an illusion; dealing with abuse from still-religious family and friends; and spending long hours actively lobbying for quality science education and protection of separation of church and state in our respective countries... We're absolutely furious.

And the vitriol that you hear coming from us today could well be coming from *you* ten years down the road. Or twenty years. Or fifty. Yes, it happens.

Don't wait that long, Jeremy. Challenge all the things you take for granted, and look clearly and dispassionately at all sides of the issues that matter to you. Only then will you be able to make an informed decision that you can live with for the rest of your life.

Anonymous said...

I wont argue,but pls.visit here:http://www.bibleprobe.com/nde.htm

stronger now said...

Anony(is that you jeremy?)

It is well known that brain trauma can lead to hallucinations. Lack of blood flow/oxygen is a form of brain trauma that will change the chemical properties of brain function. The brain has an amazing array of intricate chemicals that it uses for its responses to all kinds of stimuli. It doesn't make the near death brain reponse hallucinations real. Much like the hallucinations from LSD arn't real.

Anonymous said...

Further study about soul.This is not religious:http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/life_after_death.htm

Jim Arvo said...

Sorry if this is too off-topic...

About these "near death" experiences. Here is something that has never made a bit of sense to me. Why would being nearly dead have any similarity to being actually dead? Does the spirit world (or whatever) get tricked into tipping its cards a bit too soon? Is the sneak preview an error on somebody's part?

On the other hand, if the reported experiences are a natural result of brain chemistry, it makes perfect sense. A dying brain would be expected to produce experiences that are strange, rather like oxygen deprivation does. I'd also expect some similarities among the reports. So what's the big mystery?

boomSLANG said...

Anonymous Christian chimes in with: I wont argue,but pls.visit..[insert any link, as long as it supports Christianity]

I WILL argue---NDEs are NOT evidence of an "afterlife", or anything else metaphysical. "Near" death is not dead; dead is dead. The human brain may receive minute amounts of oxygen even though the heart flat-lines.

Notwithstanding, even if we give benefit of the doubt; even if we concede that NDEs unequivocately prove that there is an afterlife, I welcome any Christian to explain this.

Get crackin'.

stronger now said...

Anonymous said...
"Further study about soul.This is not religious"

It wasn't anything BUT religious.

Kids sees christ or angel in hallucination. Written by a bishop. Come on! What isn't religious about it?

AtheistToothFairy said...

Jim Arvo wrote:
"Why would being nearly dead have any similarity to being actually dead? Does the spirit world (or whatever) get tricked into tipping its cards a bit too soon?"
----
I've been reading about NDE's since I was a teenager (yes, that long ago).
Of course back in those days, I was sure NDE's were of a spirit nature, much like I used to be sure that having out-of-body-experiences when one is in a deep sleep were also a reality.

Besides the many studies/experiments done that show NDE's are nothing beyond one's own physical brain workings, there are a couple things that always bugged me about the belief it's one's spirit leaving the body; saying 'Adios Amigo'.

Let's suppose all humans really do have this non-material spirit in them and that it's not just xtians who get 'injected' with such a spirit at birth (or before).
(Although one still has to wonder where in our human DNA a spirit is encoded, hmm)

Let's also suppose that we don't need a god (of any religion) to coax this spirit from the dying body either.
Of course, if we remove the god factor, then why wouldn't lower life forms also have a spirit inside them, as we are all made of the same STUFF here on earth, are we not.
However, we can't include god as a factor because NDE's are unbiased to religions across the globe, as well as the non-religious groups, so it's common to all groups, is my point.

So then, one has to assume this spirit just comes out naturally upon death of the body, right?

Now I could go into, how could our personality and memories get 'mirrored' to this spirit being inside us, how when our physical brain suffers damage the spirit brain seems to also suffer that same damage, and that discussion alone would cast LOTS of doubt on such a spirit inside us, but my questions here are more basic.

As Jim here tipped the scales of this spirit idea with his comment, let me add to his comment now by asking some questions.

If we assume our spirit side can live without our bodies, as we must, then what mechanism triggers this spirit to abandon it's fleshly home?

If we go by NDE's, then it would seem the spirit MUST leave the body BEFORE the body is totally dead. "DEAD", meaning not just the heart stopping or the brain starting to shut down, but dead being the brain has totally shut down and can't be brought back to life.
Why would this be the case.
If the spirit stays with the body until the body is totally dead, would this spirit die with the body as well...I doubt that would be the case, as most believe the spirit can exist anywhere without any need for material things to keep it 'alive'.

So where is the urgency for our spirit to depart our dying (but not yet dead) body?
Should we assume it's like a sinking ship and if the spirit doesn't make the lifeboat in time, it goes down with the ship?

Okay, but let's assume this spirit doesn't hang around to watch the ship sink.
Why do many NDE spirits then hang around the body in operating rooms to watch, versus others who seem to head directly for heaven/hell or the 'office desk of reincarnation' (see India beliefs of NDE's).

Now we are talking about NDE's here, so that means the body never really dies completely but is brought back to the living world.
What force is out there that would pull this spirit back into the body once the dying process was in reverse. Is their some infinite length tether (like an umbilical cord) that is still connected and yanks the spirit back unwillingly when the dying process is halted.

If we now assume there is a god in command of all this dying stuff, then why would he allow the spirit to leave the body if he knows the body will be brought back to life very shortly.
Again, this would be more like the peek-a-boo game the god of the bible plays with us, but this time with our spirit beings getting just a short glimpse of the afterlife.

Why would god wait until a very rare moment, in a very FEW select lives, to let this person see a glimpse of this afterlife experience. Why would only these select few who were dying get to peek at this afterlife.
If there is a general rule that the living can't see the afterlife before being dead, as seems to be the case; because the majority of us never see this other world, then why do some spirits get to break these rules that god must have decreed.

It sure isn't like he picked just xtian saints to see this afterlife, because it happens equally across the board to any human demographics.
There is nothing in any bias here that favors one type of person over another when it comes to NDE's.

No supernatural knowledge is ever brought back from such disconnected spirts, which would indeed be the case if such spirits were roaming operating rooms, the earth in general, heaven, hell, and the many other places of the universe that some claimed to have visited during these NDE episodes.
Let me guess, this god wipes their spirit minds of any such knowledge, just so they can't offer substantial proof to us still living mortals that such an afterlife really exists.

Face it folks.........
NDE's have ZERO evidence of being of a spiritual nature !!!

All we ever get is hearsay vague evidence, just like we have for the god experience of xtians.



ATF

stronger now said...

Miracle Max:"He's only MOSTLY dead!"

AtheistToothFairy said...

stronger now said...
"He's only MOSTLY dead!"
--
Stronger,

Is that something like "A little bit pregnant"?
LOL

ATF

Anonymous said...

thanks for your replies.Here's another soul saving site:please visit here:http://spiritlessons.com/

My only intention is to save your soul,please bear with me.

boomSLANG said...

Annoyin' us is back with: thanks for your replies.

Hey, no problem; expect more of the same reasoned ass-whoopin' replies if you continue spamming the site.

Annoyin'us: Here's another soul saving site:[insert any URL that supports Christianity] My only intention is to save your soul,please bear with me.

No, we won't bare with you. Our "souls" need to be "saved" like a mackeral needs a motorcycle. Repeat: Near Death Experiences are NOT evidence of a "soul", or that we turn into angelic zombies when we expire.

Please, the sooner you accept the fact that you will one day cease to exist, the sooner the rest will fall into place; the sooner you can rid yourself of that nasty little mind-virus called religion.

Good luck with that.

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous, our only intention is to get you to think a little, so bear with us. (Thus far you seem to be suffering from a rather typical case of credulity.)

Anonymous said...

God bless you all.

stronger now said...

Thanks for nothin' anony.

boomSLANG said...

God bless you all = thd aked ngh wmx.

ziggyblacktail said...

To anon:

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town" (Matthew 10:14, HCSB).

Yeah, this may be out of context, but some Christians tend to model their reasons for preaching to others after Jesus commissioning the 70.

Anonymous said...

I believed some of you here are starting to doubt about the existing of our Creator after reading the testimonies of NDE's.
God bless.

boomSLANG said...

Dear Anonymous buffoon(up top),

If you'll stop posting and actually read some of the testimonies(if you're able), you'll see that we doubted the existence of your "Creator" way before you came along with your NDE links. One more time---Near Death Experiences are NOT evidence for a post-mortem existence, or anything else "supernatural". You obviously have no intention of engaging anyone in intelligent discussion, right?...right, so thus, we can safely conclude that you're only here to provoke and be an ass. If this is the case, then kindly, just leave, okay? Thanks.

Bye now.

ziggyblacktail said...

*blink* *blink* Yeah, way to ignore my post there, anon.

freethinker05 said...

Jeremy, please tell us some more of your religous experiences. I am asking. Peace, Roger, A/A

Anonymous said...

God bless to all.Yes I already read all the posts here,and concluded that you need savior.Keep on reading here:http://spiritlessons.com/

Astreja said...

No, Anonymous Asshole, we will *not* bear with you.

Souls have not been proven to exist; therefore, there is nothing to "save".

Religion in general is symbolic, not literal. Jesus, if ever such a person existed, did not rise from the dead (and certainly not after several days in a tomb). If he "came back to life" he wasn't dead in the first place.

There are no records of a three-hour solar eclipse over Jerusalem on the alleged day of the crucifiction, nor was there an earthquake that rent the veil of the temple.

Even if Jesus did exist, I would not worship such a person because I reject Original Sin and I reject substitutionary atonement. One is slander; the other is immoral.

When the symbols of religion do more harm than good, it is time to discard the whole thing. Christianity is long past its "best before" date.

Anonymous said...

Looking forward to meet you in Heaven.I know my Lord will do His best to save you all who reject Him.God bless you all.

Anonymous said...

A very encouraging true stories:http://www.morethandreams.tv/
God bless.

eel_shepherd said...

Anonymous wrote:
"Looking forward to meet you in heaven...[etc]"

Hope not. Met you here. Sufficient.

impervious \im-PUR-vee-uhs\, adjective:
1. Not admitting of entrance or passage through; impenetrable.

2. Not capable of being harmed or damaged.

3. Not capable of being affected

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous,

Do you have any interest in understanding a point of view other than your own? Ours, for instance? Please, let's get that out of the way once and for all. I ask because it seems to me that you are completely oblivious to everything that's been said here. I'd like an honest answer.

Anonymous said...

Before I came to know the Truth,I'm an asshole,arrogant,close minded,but after I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior,I became a new creation.God bless.

jeremy said...

Sure Roger, One night I was reading the bible..And I read How God Would wake people up in the night, by calling out their name, but when they woke up, nothing was there...I wondered to myself, how does this voice sound?? How could God wake us up in the night by calling our name?? Later that night, I woke up to to someone calling my name..It was real urgent like " jeremy, JEREMY" he called my name twice, just like the bible verses...and I knew at that point...that God spoke to me

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous,

Do you have any interest in understanding a point of view other than your own? May I please have a "yes" or a "no"? Thanks a bunch.

SEO said...

Jeremy, your soul must be a diamond of the first water to get such a shout-out. You'd might want to be careful, though, because in the cosmic battle between good and evil, you’d be the feather in the cap for Satan.

boomSLANG said...

Dear Jeremy,

Again, don't you find it odd that you didn't "hear God calling your name" at any time previous to reading that others had the same "experience"?? Honestly now, how many people have ever been preoccupied with a particular thought in the waking hours, only to be awakened by it at night via a "dream"? Is that really unheard of? No, it isn't. So again, to link such a flimsy personal experience with the existence of the supernatural is nothing more than wishful thinking. Jeremy, you are in denial. May reason find you.

God 'less.

jeremy said...

Actually boomslang, that time I found out about those bible verses the day after, I apologize....

freethinker05 said...

Jeremy, did God say what he wanted, or did he just want to chat awhile? Did he wake anybody else in the house up? You said it sounded pretty urgent.Please explain, Thanks, Roger

AtheistToothFairy said...

Jeremy said:
"I wondered to myself, how does this voice sound?? How could God wake us up in the night by calling our name?? Later that night, I woke up to to someone calling my name..It was real urgent like " jeremy, JEREMY" he called my name twice, just like the bible verses...and I knew at that point...that God spoke to me"
----
Jeremy,

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

From ...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor

It is paraphrased often like this:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one," or alternately, "we should not assert that for which we do not have some proof." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities"

So Jeremy, which is more likely of these two choices then:

1. That you were reading in the bible one night how god would wake people up by calling out their names, and then this very same magical calling happens to you while you're also fast asleep, that very same night.

2. That after reading this bible passage your mind wished that god would call to you the same way as you just read about, and while in dream-land your mind made it come true for you.

Doesn't choice #2 sound a whole lot more simple and possible than choice #1, that not only requires a supernatural being to contact you, but did so that exact same night?

The answer seems obvious, well, to most of us anyway.


ATF

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