Dealing with some issues

Sent in by T

I was raised in a fairly sizable town in the south of England. I attended the local Church of England church, more specifically "Anglican", with my family, from an early age - before I can remember. As is common for Anglican Protestants in England I was baptized as a baby. The church is one of the oldest buildings for miles round. The Norman church was built around and altered as the years went on but there's still a lot of the medieval building left, including some graffiti carved into the wall. I joined the choir aged seven and my Christianity grew organically, steeped in the literally awesome feeling of tradition gained from the quiet, ancient, stones and timber and participating directly in the canon of centuries of sacred vocal music - one of man's greatest achievements. Religion was tangible to me. Ritual became hugely important to me and praising God through beautiful music was my most pious goal.

My parents never directly instructed me in any religious way. Aside from being made to say some basic prayers as a child, my spiritual development was left up to the choir, Sunday school and later the youth group. Most importantly, my parents led by example, apparently without feeling the need always to relate "good" to "God". As I became more and more interested and proficient in music, I attended various summer residential courses run by The Royal School of Church Music. This really kept my faith alive. I sang in magnificent cathedrals, secluded chapels and even on stage with a philharmonic orchestra. Leading The Responses in a chapel whilst away on a course made me feel a real connection to worship - "O Lord, open thou our lips..."

Moving towards puberty, various issues affected my life. The deaths of two friends, chronic acne and bullying were particularly hard. I was confirmed at about 14 years old. As I knelt before the Bishop I felt strangely empty. Christianity was becoming very serious to me but something was missing.

I found Christian friends but none whose experience was anything like mine. I turned to my Evangelical friends and was quickly accepted into a youth group. I attended my Church of England youth group but that consisted of at best about five people, including my sister and was rarely intense in terms of spirituality. In retrospect, It was all about support and compassion. A very warm and understated group. The Evangelicals, however, went on exciting excursions, offered fizzy drinks and cakes and of course, had more girls.

I met my first girlfriend through music and she too was a Christian. We encountered all the usual awkward liaisons but with the added pressure of massive guilt regarding lust. We were advised to avoid too much physical contact, which of course fueled our frustration.

Around this time the Evangelical youth group became heavier. i was awarded with a "Youth Bible" for my birthday and discussions led more and more to salvation, the Holy Spirit etc. As far as I was concerned The Holy Spirit was what I felt when I sat silently in church or whilst singing Mozart. To them, it was about talking in tongues, "being touched" and awful rock music. I was getting increasingly involved with the local rock scene and what I heard in Evangelical services seemed neither to touch anything sacred or to rock!

I decided that as this Christianity thing was starting to confuse me, as I didn't have anything relating to a "relationship with Jesus" like my friends and as I was wracked with guilt i should look into it a little deeper.The various events listed above seemed hard to put into the context of my faith. I believed in all the "good bits" that Jesus taught - love thy neighbour, treat others as you would like to be treated and above all, forgiveness - but I couldn't get my head round a sizable chunk of the rest of it. My parents had always had gay friends, had always encouraged me to think historically and scientifically and yet my friends were telling me that a lot of this was downright wrong.

I read the Bible twice. I was doing well academically at school and decided to read it with some close attention. I still believed whole heartedly but needed a little help. I read some Bible guides and some Bible criticism. I came away in shock.

I can't remember the exact chain of events. It was pretty harrowing. I was around seventeen or eighteen at the time. Over the next six months, maybe a year I pulled at threads and soon realized that the whole sweater was unravellings. I had no signs or anything resembling answers to my prayers. I had no relationship with God. I couldn't stand up in church and wholeheartedly join in the creed - I didn't believe in the resurrection of the body or the miraculous conception. I realized that the Creation, original sin, crucifixion, salvation chain of events wouldn't work anyway I tried to comprehend it and I saw more and more examples of Christianity proudly standing up for things that were not what I was about.

One day, I broke down in church. It just all came out in tears and a voice in my head finally, long after the intellectual realization, announced that it was over. I did not believe any more.

The carpet was pulled from under me. I couldn't put anything into a frame of reference any more. I became deeply unhappy and paranoid and to make it worse, felt unable to talk to my parents, who still attend church. I attended with them and focused on the music. I felt like a fraud and tried to avoid joining in any of the spoken parts of the service whenever it would go unnoticed. My moral code was no more and I felt that I never knew whether I was being rude, drinking, smoking, getting off with girls etc. because I wanted to, or in response to my new "freedom" from religion. It was a deep ache that still resonates to this day.

Things have become better. Moving to Music College meant I was could stop attending church. My interest in Agnosticism found channels and I now practice "Buddhism". I am not a member of a religion, I just use the example of the Buddha in my life. The Buddha's emphasis on basing action on what you personally experience rather than any doctrine was exactly what I needed. His refusal to answer "metaphysical" questions about the next life etc. as they waste time in this one and his focus on compassion have helped give me back some feeling of a frame of reference without the -need- for faith, doctrine or evangelism. I find good in things of this world and I try to do good for its own sake, not in the hope of a ticket to the VIP area in the sky, or fear of hellfire.

For a while I was almost "anti-Christian" and I am always sad to here or read of these sorts of opinions. That first girlfriend, mentioned above, is still Christian. She's also still a very close friend. She's a no-nonsense Christian with a healthy real - world attitude. She's one of the most well - balanced, kind people I know and she doesn't take the Bible literally. She's able to live "Christianly" without facing the problems so many of us have. The same could be said of my parents and sister. Whilst I have been firmly uprooted from Christianity, never to return, I would see criticizing such upright human beings as an utter waste of time. It's just sad that, to me, in our present world, they seem to be rather in the minority.

It's taken me about three or four years to be able to write this testimony. and similar sites helped me, an anonymous reader back then. Recent discussion amongst my friends (mostly atheists) caused me to start thinking about this aspect of my life again, and i feel that this has been a big step in finally dealing with some of the issues of my ex-Christianity that still haunt me.


Anonymous said...

and the healing continues,welcme to reality,dealing with life on lifes terms has its own rewards good luck.

Anonymous said...

This is a lovely post, T. I agree with you in that bashing Christians makes me feel worse, not better. I can discard christian belief if I want to, but I've always felt that nothing is gained by making fun of people. Are you still in music? I find the same fulfillment, to the liturigcal texts, even as an athiest.

RSM said...

Thank you for sharing your story. I am always touched at the sincerity with which exChristians have searched in vain for answers to their specific questions. It seems all of us have different questions or problems with Christianity but we all seem to be seeking with the same level of sincerity for whatever answers we need. And we always seek in vain. Christians don't like hearing that and will make all kinds of excuses for God, as though an almighty ruler of the universe could not stand up for himself. Thanks again for sharing. I am glad you feel like you are on more solid ground again and that this site has helped you. It has also helped me a lot.


Micah Cowan said...

Buddhism, eh? I've found several things about Buddhist philosophy that appeal to me as well. The Dalai Lama is fond of pointing out the similarities in the moral teachings of Christianity and Tibetan Buddhism, and I have to agree: Buddhism has given some very wonderful thoughts and traditions.

I have trouble with the mythology portion, though (same as with Christianity), couldn't believe in reincarnation without some substantial proof, and I have trouble with the idea of treating insects with the same respect and protection of life that I would give to humans. :)

I would certainly be interested in applying aspects of Buddhist philosophy to my life, and wonder what books or other resources have been useful to you, and whether you meet with a group of people, or just take walk your own path?

Note that there are, of course, some people who consider themselves Christians in an analogous way to your Buddhism: they follow the good examples from "Christ", without necessarily "believing upon" or worshiping him, or following the doctrines of some particular church or religion.

Anonymous said...

i am a christian. but have been treated like crap by many, many christians. it has caused great pain in my life. but God is not a Christian. he is god. and he is good. having a relationship with him is great. religion stinks.
good book which is anti-religious but pro real christianity is
THe Rejoicing of Herman SMith.

Anonymous said...

Hi, it's T again. Thanks so much for the kind responses. It's lovely to be reminded that "ex-Christianity" is not something I'm alone in.

Firstly, Naomi, I am indeed still in music. Just finishing a degree in jazz studies and starting to work a fair bit. The music of the church has been so important in the development of culture over the centuries and I feel very fortunate to have been so involved.

Micah, I cannot reccomend Stephen Batchelor's "Buddhism Without Beliefs" enough. As to your other points, in Buddhism (or, more appropriately, "following the dharma") it's all about good intention - a lot of it is common sense. The meditation side just gives us tools with which to practice the awareness and focus necessary to act compassionately. If you feel it necessary to swat a fly, for example, because it might carry a disease that could threaten a child, then that's your decision in the moment. No judgement, see? You are responsible for your own contribution to the "cause and effect" nature of life.

Reincarnation is not a necessary belief in Buddhism either - the Buddha himself refused to answer questions of metaphysics, such as what happens when we die. For him it was like this.. we are born, we will die, and that could be at any moment.. what should be done now?? The argument tends to go that reincarnation was believed by all Indians at the time, and the (historical) Buddha never really said anything on the subject.

As to the fact that some Christians feel able to pick the good bits, so to speak... not me. I can't do the whole "sinner nature" side. I can't accept that Christ died on the cross for my sins, as i would also have to belive that my sins descended from Adam and Eve and that this was the omnipresent, omniscient God's doing. I also feel unable to align myself with the Church that does so much wrong in our world.

And, anonymous, thanks for trying! (I may well check out that book)

Micah Cowan said...

Hi T,

Thanks for the book recommendation: I just added it to my Amazon shopping cart ^_^

I'm also currently going through Matthieu Ricard's "Happiness".

Regarding the pick-'n'-choose Christianity stuff… the things you list (sin nature, Christ's death being for my sins, …) mostly fall under what I meant to classify as the mythology-and-dogma portion of Christianity. I'm talking more about emulating what Jesus is actually said to have done and taught (love thy neighbor as thyself; do unto others; living a life of compassion and active good will towards others [a remarkably Buddhist concept]…)

I pretty much do these things, though I don't call myself a Christian (and I use only what I want to: I don't much care for the story of Jesus comparing a gentile woman to a dog, for example)—and I don't limit myself only to examples from Jesus' life either. Also, some concepts (turn the other cheek; bless those who curse you, pray for those who spitefully abuse you) can be too easily taken to extremes if they're not balanced and tempered. I also add some of the nicer teachings of Paul, picking and choosing what "rings right with my soul" from among the more bigoted or dogmatic of his instructions. (One of the nice, and very liberating, aspects of no longer being a Bible Inerrantist is being able to pay attention to exactly those portions which don't pose problems to me, while leaving off the rest! :) )

Personally, I think I do pretty much believe in something analogous to the "sin nature": at least, my mind rebels immediately to the proposition that humans are "inherently good"—it seems clear to me that we are naturally drawn to some modes of behavior that are inappropriate to act on. But I rebel equally to such concepts as Calvinism's Total Depravity; that we are inherently incapable of good on our own (if I understand the concept correctly). We have, as far as I'm able to tell, an equal capacity for good and ill: the pursuit of one necessarily involves the suppression of our tendencies for the other. I do note, though, that becoming a "good" person can require self-training and discipline, while the reverse doesn't seem to apply.

Anonymous said...

(T again!)
I like your approach very much, Micah. I think we're very similar in our standpoint. I never intended for this to become about the pros of Buddhism, but it's been important in my Ex-Christianity. So, just in case you're interested, here's my take on the points you raise!

When you say, "I pretty much do these things, though I don't call myself a Christian" - this is the crucial distinction. Many people, that I love dearly, take your "pick and choose" approach and do call themselves Christians.

There are two important points here.

Firstly, I think it's evident to the thinking person that there will never come a day when either we're all converted, or religion is abandoned, as some Christians and some atheists might desire. In a troubled world, our priority must surely be good for good's sake. Aligning oneself with the Christian world (to me) seems to cause just as many, if not more problems than good. It's great that people can take example from the good works of Jesus. But that (dogmatically, as you rightly point out) doesn't make them Christians. I think Christians need to know that many non-Christians, ex-Christians etc. are prepared to be "on their side" regarding a fair chunk of their morality without being Christian. You and I, for example!

Secondly, regarding "Sinner-nature", I'm very influenced by what I have studied of Eastern thinking. In Buddhism, nothing (and noone) is inherently anything - the world, and the idea of "self" are regarded as a continuing sequence of causes and effects. You say, regarding good and bad, "the pursuit of one necessarily involves the suppression of our tendencies for the other"

In Buddhism, "suppression" is not an option. The aim is to become more aware of how we function. To head towards a point where we notice "unskillful" intentions, thoughts, words, actions as they rise in our consciousness and choose to take the path which we know empirically (rather than believe) to be the "skillful" option, letting go of the "unskillful" option whilst it remains the nucleus of an impulse. (tough stuff, but it's much more common sense than having a moral code to stick to, right?)

The word "pursuit" is key. Perhaps pursuit could be the key to most peoples' lives feeling unsatisfactory from time to time? We are conditioned, from all directions (from our parents to Coca-Cola) to want our life to be better - we miss what is going on right in front of our nose (the pause between an in and out breath for example!)

If we could all treat others as if they were inherently good, wouldn't people's relationships improve? Majorly idealistic, for sure, but the intention is born out of the skillful thing to do, right now!

Micah Cowan said...

@ T,

All very excellent points. Thanks very much for an enjoyable dialog! :)

Anonymous said...

Hello "T" and all Ex- Christians web site.
I understand you have decided to deny Christ. But I must tell you He still loves you beyond you can ever imagine. Now is the time to reconsider your decision and give your heart to Him. The battle was won at Calvary. Jesus defeated Staten when he was resurected on the 3rd day. Satan is a usurper a deceiver his only goal is still, kill and destroy. He knows his time is limited that is why he is working overtime. Beleive me he will not stop until he reaches his final destnation. read the book of Revelation 19: 11-21 I assure you that is his final place he knows Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Satan trembles at the mention of Jesus name. Don't let him deceive you. resist the devil and he will flee from you. The truth is many will hear the Gospel and but when trouble comes not to many will stick with it. People want to serve God on their on terms.
That is not how God operates his ways are not man ways he is almighty and in control of everything. He knows everything there is to know about each individual. He wants a relation ship with his people.With out faith it is impossible to uderstand the price that Jesus Christ paid on the cross for mankind's sin. Only through childlike faith and relying on the Holy Spirit will give you peace in this crazy world.
Salvation is free but it is not cheap. It costed God His one and only begotten Son Jesus. Can you imagine the pain God had to deal with when he gave up His Son?????
Can any of us give up our only son to save another. I think not! so my point is christianty is about a relationship with Jesus. It's about being transformed ( Romans 12)It is about life and death. He who has the Son has life he who does not have the son does not have life. Thus saith the Lord.
I urge all of you to read the Holy Bible diligently and ask the Holy Spirt to give you a clear understanding. If you seek Jesus he will revel Himself to you. trust me. I am a living proof. Everything in the Holy Bible is true. It has no error in it. Who ever is reading this we are living in the last days. Jesus will soon come to take His. Then the Antichrist ( a man indwelt by Satan) will come to power. He Will promise peace and wonders but all of it will be lies the world will choose sides It will be a requirement of the new world order or government to take the Antichrist's mark (id) on your right hand or forehead including worshiping of his image. If you refuse you will be beheaded weather you are a Christian or not. it's unlikely one will accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ If she /he has already rejected him.
Now is the time to receive salvation by the Grace of God.
you must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.
Lastly Jesus made this bold statement to his disciples ...I am the way and the truth, and the life no one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
following Jesus Christ is not easy. The road is less traveled but it is worth every thing. For in Him we have life everlasting.

I pray God will touch your hearts heal your pains.


Anonymous said...

Hello BB.

I'm not going to bother with most of what you wrote because it is basically the same sermon that every other christian troll recites when they wander in here.

You did write a couple of things tho that I just can't pass up.

"Salvation is free but it is not cheap."

This has to be one of the funniest things that I have ever seen written by a christian. You are 100% right, salvation is the gift that keeps on taking!

"It costed God His one and only begotten Son Jesus. Can you imagine the pain God had to deal with when he gave up His Son?????"

(Wow, 5 whole question marks - this must really be a stumper!) Pardon me, BB, but where is jesus now? Where has he been for the last 2000 years? How painful could it have been if god KNEW that jesus was going to be joining him in heaven?

"I urge all of you to read the Holy Bible diligently (did it) and ask the Holy Spirt to give you a clear understanding (did it). If you seek Jesus (did it) he will revel Himself to you (nope, never happened)."

"trust me. I am a living proof."

Aha! So it isn't god or jesus or the bible we are to faith in, its you, BB. Well I'm sorry but you aren't any more divine or sacred or holy than anybody else I've ever encountered.

Why don't you go sell your snake oil and divine prophesies somewhere else.

Anonymous said...

To all ex Christians:

Jesus is the way the truth and the life No ONE comes to the Father but thru HiM John 14:6

Now is the time to turn away from your sins and repent. Seek God with all your being as if your life depended on it.
You will find Him and He shall set you free.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, until you show some sign of listening to what we have to say, you will deserve no respect and shall receive none.

Bye bye.

webmdave said...

To anony-bot:

Qur'an, Sūra 40: Mū-min, Section 1:7Those who sustain the Throne (of Allah. and those around it Sing Glory and Praise to their Lord; believe in Him; and implore Forgiveness for those who believe: "Our Lord! Thy Reach is over all things, in Mercy and Knowledge. Forgive, then, those who turn in Repentance, and follow Thy Path; and preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire!

We'll call this "Dueling Holy Books."

Silly, isn't it?

Steven Bently said...

Scared anony wrote:
To all ex Christians:

(Jesus is the way the truth and the life No ONE comes to the Father but thru HiM John 14:6)
You mean that God would not forgive me of my sins, if I asked only God?

Now is the time to turn away from your sins and repent. Seek God with all your being as if your life depended on it.
You will find Him and He shall set you free.

You wrote: "Jesus is the way the truth and the life No ONE comes to the Father but thru HiM John 14:6"

But then you wrote;"Seek God with all your being as if your life depended on it."

But you said Jesus is the only way, and later you say seek God.

Which is it? God or Jesus?

Get your shit straight, anonymous!

boomSLANG said...

Fundonymous: To all ex Christians:

Jesus is the way the truth and the life No ONE comes to the Father but thru HiM John 14:6

To all Christians: Quoting biblical scripture here is a total, 100%, WASTE OF TIME. I could line my cat's litter box with "John 14:6" and and get more use out of it. Christ all mighty!...."John 14:6"...."John 4:09" sounds like toilet bowl cleaner!

Fundonymous: Now is the time to turn away from your sins and repent.

Now is the time to turn away from the magical childhood beliefs that you were indoctrinated with, and become a reasonable rational-minded adult.

Seek God with all your being as if your life depended on it.
You will find Him and He shall set you free.

Seek truth, OBJECTIVELY, with all your being, as if your life depended on it. You may not like what you find at first, but you'll definitely be set free of your asinine superstitious beliefs.

Anonymous said...

Hello Webmaster Dave:

I read your testimony / sabbatical letter. I can relate to some of the things you experienced. After I received Jesus Christ I too was questioning about my Muslim, and Jewish friends. And their Eternal destiny as well as my own salvation. I kept asking God if I am really saved. I still do sometimes. I asked god many questions almost like an interrogation.

This is what I have learned in my walk with Him. God hears us only through His Son Jesus Christ. In this time and era. In the old Testament Abraham, Noah, Mosses all heard God’s voice they had direct communication with Him.
I asked what made these men so different. I believe it was their willingness to serve Him they were servants of the Most High God. In the midst heavy idol worship. It did not matter to them what others thought of them. They were all available to do what God asked them to do no matter what the cost. So God used them mightily because they were faithful to the end
It takes crazy faith for Abraham to take his son Isaac to that mountain and give him up God was testing him. Abraham could have easily said God I am 100 years old Sarah is 90 years old you make us wait this long and now you want me to give Isaac to you? My one and only son?
If we want to hear from God we must humble ourselves before Him. Like servants we must decrease and He must increase. I ask my self God you say you love me don’t you want me to have fun? He answers my prayer. I don’t hear His voice. But I have a sense of knowing some call it an intuition. Then I start to think about the blessings I have the roof over my head, good health healthy children, a loving husband etc… God wants me to use what I have and bless others make a connection with others so they may know God through me it does not have to be a major project. Just simple things. He wants us to smile and be happy. Be just like little children and don’t worry about things too much. Because worrying leads to doubt God doesn’t like to be doubted He likes to be believe

Christianity honestly you have read more books and have spent years exploring it.
To me Christianity is about Jesus his life on earth and the legacy he left us.
Jesus was not welcomed from the get go. The inns were all booked. Then he had to go hid out in Egypt. And come back and live with his parents in Nazareth. He knew there was something different about Himself. Others knew it too
He had to wait 30 years to start His Church with much doubt and ridicule from others and then he started telling people if you have seen me you have seen the father. The people looked at Him and wanted to kill him. They finally succeeded. He lived died and lived again and now he still lives. And is sitting at the right hand of his father. My point is this is a mystery. As humans he has blessed us with brains. But it is very hard to figure God out. I try not to do it because I get a headache
So I just believe Him and take Him at his word. In his word he assures me one day I will know everything until then I am just going to enjoy the ride.
This kind of faith is viewed by
most people as ignorance and foolishness.
When I go through a hard time and things don't make sense to me,
I refer back to how Jesus lived here on earth. H he went through a lot of grief from skeptics,the Pharisees and the saducess.
So if I am to follow Him and call my self a Christian I am to expect hardship and set back. But I know things will change I won't always be stuck in life's trials. The sun will shine, God will get me through it for my faith is in Him.
Thanks for letting me post here.


Anonymous said...

I can tell that there isn't enough time left in your lifetime, nor mine, or enough words in the English language, to distract your mind from Jesus.

The only thing I would like to warn you about is: If you get any e-mails from Nigeria asking for assistance with transferring funds into your bank account, and offering several million dollars as payment for your help, I would be very careful. It might be a scam!
Dan (Your soooooooooo sweet BB, please be careful)

Anonymous said...

Hello Dano

Thanks you for your post. Yes I have to be careful With Nigerain " charities." As well as some Christian ministries they are out to get people's money.


Anonymous said...

Hello tigg 13,

"Why don't you go sell your snake oil and divine prophesies somewhere else.
2/02/2007 3:02 AM

I am not selling anything. I have never seen a snake oil even if I have I won't be selling it.
I am sharing what I know to be true what gives me peace of mind and Hope
His name is Jesus he is not interested in religion he wants a relationship with the whole world. there is one God in three persons Father, Son, Holy spirt.
you can look at this way.

water,ice,steam = water
just in diffrent forms and dimension.

Thanks for reading


Anonymous said...

BB would you kindly post how much you get for a case, plus shipping of the Miracle Snake Oil you're peddling on here? That stuff just does woners for my aching lumbago...hmmfff.

God bless your big ole kind heart..!

boomSLANG said...

Bible-'Bot(BB): I am not selling anything.

LMAO! Um, yes....YES you most certainly are selling something--- you are selling your faith in Christianity.

Here is what BB said in a recent post in another thread:

BB: God wants me to use what I have and bless others make a connection with others so they may know God through me it does not have to be a major project.

Okay, there is the agenda, folks, in no uncertain terms. She is saying that her "God" has subcontracted her to "spread the word". The irony is that she is oblivious to the fact that she is only doing a disservice to her "faith". You cannot not "un-ring" a bell, BB. In other words, once a critically thinking person determines that Santa doesn't exist, you cannot "win them back" to the childish belief in Santa. While I wish this would penentrate your apparently very thick skullcap, I'm not hopeful.

BB, as much as you say you won't read my posts, I know you will. BB, you are not making this "connection" that you seek to make anymore than a homeless chemically dependent baglady would make a "connection" with the people at an AA meeting.

Bible-Bot: I have never seen a snake oil even if I have I won't be selling it.

You've never seen a "god" either, but that's not stopping you from believing in or selling that, as evidenced by your religious blatherings on this site.

Bible-'Bot: I am sharing what I know to be true what gives me peace of mind and Hope
His name is Jesus he is not interested in religion he wants a relationship with the whole world


Yes, yes...'got it---your Jebus makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. That's adorable. Yet, as myself and numerous others have pointed out, you have not one single shred of evidence to support the belief in your invisible friend. Zero, zip, zilch, NADDA. You claim to know what your Jebus wants and requires of us, based on ink and paper. Okay, we've determined that that is not evidence for anything, but to give you benefit of the doubt(and to watch you fall flat on your face again), please provide the exact chapter/verse where it says this:

"His name is Jesus he is not interested in religion he wants a relationship with the whole world."


BB: there is one God in three persons Father, Son, Holy spirt.
you can look at this way.

water,ice,steam = water
just in diffrent forms and dimension.

Water, steam, and ice are all material observable things. Your bogus analogy is like saying that because wood, mulch, and paper come from trees, then Pinocchio is real.

Please...vacate. You've tortured us long enough. Go find your mindless sheep elsewhere. Enough already. Shoo!

Anonymous said...

BTW BB, how much you getting for the Bullshit spray you been spreading around here?

Anonymous said...

Just talk to God. That will start your relationship. I am a Christian but rarely go to church. The guy that led me to the Lord rarely went to church. Why don't I go to church? I have been hurt so badly in churches. I am tired of it. I love in return but just want a break from the hurt. I still spend time with God and still obey the Word. The commandment to attend church in Hebrews is valid. But churches today aren't like the churches in Paul's day. They are after money and most are just religious, not relational. I think Paul would probably say stay away from most churches today. Thank God for churches like that let the Spirit move. I love those churches. The Refuge church in grapevine Texas. It's awesome!

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