The emperor is naked
sent in by Albert
I grew up with very little religion. My parents had had it forced down their throats and didn't want the same for my sister and me. So although I understood the basic framework of Christianity and we celebrated the holidays, we never went to church, prayed at the dinner table etc.
My wife on the other hand had been raised an Anglican all her life. Although I never cared much for the liturgies and rituals of her church (although I liked the music and hymns), I always enjoyed the sermons by the minister because they were insightful and related to everyday life rather than being some kind of esoteric high powered theology. Eventually the minister went back to Northern Ireland and was replaced by a pleasant but very boring fellow. Neither my wife nor I found this much to our liking and we attended church rarely after that.
A few years after that I attended the funeral of one of my colleagues and was really impressed by the minister from a local evangelical church so we decided to give his church a try. Now this church is one of those "seeker friendly" types which has adapted itself to the culture around it in order to recruit members. Initially it was rather exciting with the contemporary worship and the enthusiasm of the church members. Quite a contrast to the rather turgid environment of my previous Anglican church.
This environment of enthusiasm rubbed off on me and made me really start reading and getting into Christianity. So I started reading a variety of books, but guess what started my questioning? Amazon.com! How so you say? Well there's something over there called "reader reviews". So when you start reading that not all people think highly of the apologetics of someone like C.S. Lewis, it gets you thinking. To make a long story short, after three years of intense study the whole thing just fell apart. And when the best answer your pastor can give to tough but fair questions is "read your bible and I will pray for you", you realize the whole thing is nothing more than a shell game. In some ways I think my deconversion is especially relevant because I never really had any significant negative experiences the way some here have had, so my deconversion can't be blamed on "bad" christians etc. My wife has gone back to an Anglican church which she attends occasionally and I go with her on the holidays, it's fairly painless. We get along as well as ever.
At present I have not put any new metaphyscal labels on myself because none really seem to fit and furthermore I feel there is too much of that "us versus them" mentality in the world already. So that's my story. maybe not terribly fascinating but so be it.
Montreal
Quebec
Canada
25
45
Was: Anglican, Evangelical
Now: No labels please, they leave stains which are hard to wash out :-)
Joined: Because of wife
Left: I had questions, but they had no good answers
potterdoc13 at yahoo dot ca
I grew up with very little religion. My parents had had it forced down their throats and didn't want the same for my sister and me. So although I understood the basic framework of Christianity and we celebrated the holidays, we never went to church, prayed at the dinner table etc.
My wife on the other hand had been raised an Anglican all her life. Although I never cared much for the liturgies and rituals of her church (although I liked the music and hymns), I always enjoyed the sermons by the minister because they were insightful and related to everyday life rather than being some kind of esoteric high powered theology. Eventually the minister went back to Northern Ireland and was replaced by a pleasant but very boring fellow. Neither my wife nor I found this much to our liking and we attended church rarely after that.
A few years after that I attended the funeral of one of my colleagues and was really impressed by the minister from a local evangelical church so we decided to give his church a try. Now this church is one of those "seeker friendly" types which has adapted itself to the culture around it in order to recruit members. Initially it was rather exciting with the contemporary worship and the enthusiasm of the church members. Quite a contrast to the rather turgid environment of my previous Anglican church.
This environment of enthusiasm rubbed off on me and made me really start reading and getting into Christianity. So I started reading a variety of books, but guess what started my questioning? Amazon.com! How so you say? Well there's something over there called "reader reviews". So when you start reading that not all people think highly of the apologetics of someone like C.S. Lewis, it gets you thinking. To make a long story short, after three years of intense study the whole thing just fell apart. And when the best answer your pastor can give to tough but fair questions is "read your bible and I will pray for you", you realize the whole thing is nothing more than a shell game. In some ways I think my deconversion is especially relevant because I never really had any significant negative experiences the way some here have had, so my deconversion can't be blamed on "bad" christians etc. My wife has gone back to an Anglican church which she attends occasionally and I go with her on the holidays, it's fairly painless. We get along as well as ever.
At present I have not put any new metaphyscal labels on myself because none really seem to fit and furthermore I feel there is too much of that "us versus them" mentality in the world already. So that's my story. maybe not terribly fascinating but so be it.
Montreal
Quebec
Canada
25
45
Was: Anglican, Evangelical
Now: No labels please, they leave stains which are hard to wash out :-)
Joined: Because of wife
Left: I had questions, but they had no good answers
potterdoc13 at yahoo dot ca
Comments
"After three years of intense study the whole thing fell apart." Good for you!
" ... At present I have not put any new metaphyscal labels on myself because none really seem to fit and furthermore I feel there is too much of that "us versus them" mentality in the world already. So that's my story. maybe not terribly fascinating but so be it."
Albert, thanks for your testimony, although it is very different than my experience. I will bet you money that a lot of folks are much like yourself.
When anyone with an open mind looks at the myths of the Bible, or evangelical doctrines, they come up with the same answers, that there are none.
Welcome to the board.
Onanite
Some may call us blasphemers,I say christians are the blasphemers for making gaud in their own image,...jealous,violent,vengeful,
egocentric and of course, LOVING???
PEACE,..FREEDY
Now! we can believe that this simple minded f--k is saying this shit just to promote his TV show or we can believe that all the morons like him really are going to keep escalating the religious hatred in the world and cause our demise by a self fulfilling prophesy!
What the f--k is the difference between his views and the lunatic that is running Iran now?
The only difference is one calls God, Allah and has a psychotic pedophile for a prophet, and the other calls God, God, and has a deluded rabbi who was convinced that he was the only son of God.
Dano
DCShrink1 said...
Check out http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com
for information, support and great reading material
1/12/2006 4:32 PM
Thanks for that. It is a great response to www.godhatesfags.com, which is a "hoot". It's just a very sick and disturbing "hoot".
Check out http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com
for information, support and great reading material
posted: 1/12/2006 4:32 PM EST
I would like to thank you for the link to (http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com)
It should be required reading in every school.
He shows by implicit example, how all religious belief is simply too dumb to take seriously. Even a six year old should be able to see the fallaciousness of belief in imaginary beings after reading this.
Dano
Just wondering what were some of the things there were no good answers for?
Cheers
Angie
http://rants.8m.com
Isn't there a tad bit too much mysticism and magic involved in being a Christian to make it the basis for your life.
Just think about this one concept. Why would God need a sacrifice of any human (Jesus)? I dare you to analyze it, examine the logic of the whole story from the immaculate conception to the Ascension.
Doesn't it look a little like the same story that you find in pagan religions that preceded Christianity?
The people of this site will attest to the fact that it is possible to live a happy, optimistic, secure life, without a blind acceptance of a mythological story.
The only difference is that we go through each day, still in wonder at the creation of life. We aren't presumptuous enough to think that we know what/who did it, or how.
Dan
Check out the testimony of another Angie!
http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/2005/12/fantasy-versus-reality.html#comments
Dan
Hello Dano-
I am a christian and am here to just clarify a few things about your questions. Please know that I completely respect your decision to leave Christianity and my sole reason for posting is to clarify, not judge.
The immaculate conception and ascension (of mary) is nowhere found in the new testament.
Also, in the old testament, God prohibited the sacrifice of humans. Actually he was so opposed to it that after years of withholding judgment on those who practiced these heinous acts, He later commanded the hebrews in Moses' time to destroy the nations that were engaging in child/human sacrifice. Unfortunately though, the bible recounts that they too ended up doing this detestable thing. God responded to them, as he did with other nations, with anger and judgement. Ezekiel 16:20-22
God's request for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac was not a required law, but rather a test of his faithfulness. But, Abraham did not just submit blindly for he knew about God's character, and he did not believe that He would allow it.
In Gen 22:5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then WE (emphasis mine) will come back to you." {anticipation that he will return with Isaac with him)
Then Gen 22:8 Isaac asked Abraham why they were going to offer a sacrifice without a lamb. He answered, "God himself will PROVIDE the lamb for the burnt offering, my son."
Thanks,
evelyn
God does require a blood sacrifice, however. This is a concept that is uniform throughout the bible. From the old to the new, any wrongdoing must be "paid" for by atonement (shedding of animal blood in OT, shedding of Jesus' blood in NT). the bible does describe God as a consuming fire because of his absolute hatred of any wrongdoing (sin). But since the bible also describes him as loving, he has deflected this payment to fall on animals (OT) then later onto himself through Jesus (NT).
Hebrews 9 explains this further, if you were interested in looking it up for yourself.
Thanks,
evelyn
"Dano - I wanted to add one more thing:
God does require a blood sacrifice, however. This is a concept that is uniform throughout the bible. From the old to the new, any wrongdoing must be "paid" for by atonement (shedding of animal blood in OT, shedding of Jesus' blood in NT). the bible does describe God as a consuming fire because of his absolute hatred of any wrongdoing (sin). But since the bible also describes him as loving, he has deflected this payment to fall on animals (OT) then later onto himself through Jesus (NT)"
Hebrews 9 explains this further, if you were interested in looking it up for yourself.
Thanks,
Evelyn
If God hate "SIN" so much, why did he create it? Very simple question. Now let me see how you skirt around that.
Dan
Please explain why you believe God created sin. What are your views on this matter? It will help me better understand.
Evelyn
Evelyn Please read:
Isaiah Ch.45 vs.7
I form the light, and create the darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all theses things.
Now according to the bible, this God is the creator of all things, this leaves only God to be responsible for creating all Evil, Satan, and allowing all evil to exist.
Now Evelyn, are we to believe what the Bible says, or are we supposed to believe what you want us to believe?
Since we do not believe that the bible was divinely inspired, we do not believe it is the truth.
We do not believe that there exists a god and he creates evil and runs and hides and looks out from undercover to see who believes in him and who worships his ass.
you wrote: "Either the Bible is the absolute word of God or it's all a lie."
I absolutely agree with you. As for Is 45:7, I see you are quoting from the KJV. However, modern translations like the NASB or NIV renders the original hebrew as "calamity" or "disaster".
Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace.
The Hebrew word translated "peace" is sha?lo?m, which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. On the other hand, Ra??a?h, the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity.
There are two forms of the word in Hebrew. If you look up this word using Strong's Concordance (this textbook looks up meanings of the original hebrew text), the form used in this verse most often refers to calamity or distress.
Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."
And yes, the bible speaks of many instances that God causes calamity such as the global flood described in genesis.
Ben did a real good job of explaining it, now all you have to do is resist the temptation to not read what he said, or stick your fingers in your ears and run away.
"Isaiah Ch.45 vs.7
I form the light, and create the darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all theses things."
Thanks Ben!
Dan
The guys who wrote the bible were not very big on logic. They just said "shit" and every one back then took it at face value. No matter how screwy it was. They had a saying: "It's not so important WHAT we tell the masses as long we stay in power and can rule them by making stuff up, and telling them that if they question us they will go to hell and burn forever!"
Dan
I say the bible is all a lie, and my parents have been lied to all their friggin fundy life.
Now Evelyn you may take your beliefs and your precious NASB or NIV watered down bibles and have a happy life and you may decide to rewite the KJV bible to make it suit your needs, so you have displayed the typical fundy response, you want your bible to be the true one that you want to believe and if you do not find one that suits you, you will search and find one that does.
Evelyn thank you for such a waist of Dano's and my time. I'm sorry Dano but I thought I could help, but one must want help before it can begin. Cheers Dano, with lots of respect, Ben
Hey guys, we are required to learn hebrew in order to understand the buybull. On top of that, make sure you guys are reading the correct transulation, not the KJV BUT the NIV/NASB..oh brother, another apologetic BS.
Anonymous said: " Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."
Calamity: disaster, catastrophe, mishap, misfortune, tragedy, blow
Evil: wickedness, malevolence, sin, iniquity, vice immorality
No wonder you slick bastards try to get away from the word "evil" Tell me something Anonymous, everywhere else in your NIV evil remainds evil, correct? So why is changed with this one verse? Get it straight Anonymous. This so call god book has been revised, transulated so many times and so evil is now soften (only in the NIV and NASB)to read "calamity" Too many hard questions concerning that verse, so I guess someone decided to be slick.
For those who reads the KJV (speaking about christians, if they ever read it) will see what it really says. Dammed if you are not reading the NIV or NASB.
some inspired book that is *phew*
By the way, hate means hate or are you going to tell us we need to learn greek.
First of all i didn't ask for help, but thank you for your odd way of "offering help". Second of all, your response sounded like a big emotional meltdown - which were unnecessary. I answered your question as logically as i can based on what the text in question was written in in the original language. I wasn't putting down your dear KJV. Nor was i exalting other translations over it. That was your misguided assumption.
South2203,
Calamity (natural disasters, deformed childred) and evil (moral evil such as murder, cheating lying) does not carry the same meaning at all the last time I checked the english dictionary. If you can't see that then I am at a loss for words.
Speaking of dictionaries, there is no such word as transulated. oh..you mean TRANSlated.
I thought I would be able to discuss matters in an intelligent way here. I was wrong.
Evelyn you're really not wanted here, you have an excuse for every breath that you inhale. you live in a lie, you believe in a lie, you love a lie, you steep your brain in a lie, just go on and worship Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, all those people helping spread the biggest lie and hoax and scam ever invented in the history of humankind.
I don't like pat robertson. I don't even know who jimmy falwell is, sorry. But anyways, since you said "please" i will do as you requested. And I'm sorry that some christians has caused this bitterness. It broke my heart to hear you talk about your parents being lied to. Good luck,
Evelyn.
HAR HAR HAR, is that all you can say regarding my post - about the word that I mispelled?
So this god makes deformed kids for what? Isn't that wicked? Dig deep into your goody bag once again, grap two ears...it's the same old sh*t bunny rabbit. It's no better than someone who murders. Speaking about murder, how many did god kill or ordered to be killed? - so screw your yet again apologetic sap bullshit<(checking my spelling. Yep it's right)
You thought you could tell us a story that we've never heard before and low and behold, you had the melt down when you realized we weren't buying it.
And thanks for doing my spell check Nonny. Make sure you do same fro thsi oen alos.
P.S. If you keep up your babble in trying to spread your "good news" on this site, especially when we don't want to hear it, it will be scrubed.
later fundie
How about we just sit here are correct your grammar.
Instead of: "...on what the text in question was written in in the original language."
How about a more lucid ending:
"...on the original text in question"
It gets rid of the double "in" used. Also, next time you want to critique grammar and format, use a capital "I", instead of a lower case "i", as in your sentence.
Anonymous: I wasn't putting down your dear KJV."
How do you know how endeared anyone holds a piece of literature. You are being presumptious and drawing conclusions, unless you are going to claim omniscience.
Anonymous: "Nor was i exalting other translations over it. That was your misguided assumption."
If you claim one translation of a word is more "correct", than another, then you are asserting by default, that all other translations are "less" correct. Are you asserting, that all bible translations are equally correct? If so, then the word "evil" stands in the KJV, as equal in correct translation. Unless you are going to make a different claim.
Anonymous: "I thought I would be able to discuss matters in an intelligent way here. I was wrong."
If you want to appear intelligent, learn how to click on the "Other" button and post a name. Maybe you need a class on how to scroll with a mouse, and select objects online.
If you are trying to make a point, why not just make your argument? Then you can support your argument, based on your scholarly knowledge of the issue. If you make a statement of "fact", and it is contradictory to other bible translations, then you assert they are incorrect. So, lets hear this wisdom you are desperately trying to pass to the visitors and regulars on this site.
I sure don't want be admonish about my spelling *in tears*
I have a website I would like to recomend to you, theresfinersfire.com, you'll simply love it there and you two can sit around and discuss how you love God and baby Jesus, and how everyones going to hell except you two.
And if they were universal words, we would all be born knowing them. We’d all be baptized in our amniotic fluid as (select the One True Religion and insert) and not as the atheists that we are all born now.
‘Calamity’ was not put into place to flatter ‘peace.’ It was put in place to squelch the ‘evil’ doings of your ever-so-loving god.
Brillant Shannon, We have a Winner !!!!
Stay with us Shannon, and post some more, we need you.
that it was his Holy words, he
would have fixed it to where every person that read it could understand it, without any
confusion regardless of nationality or age or race or creed or color, and no
contradictions and no different denominations even a child could have read the Bible and have complete understanding, this way a person would not have an excuse for rejecting the word of God.
The only reason the Bible is so contradictory is because it was not written by a god, it was written by a man.
A God may not be the author of confusion, but man surely is, which is self evident in the buybull.
I can hear some christians saying right now, But I understand completely every word of the bible. ah piss off...
A confound lie.
Golleee Ev, I thought you would stay around and try to splain some of the difficult contradictions of believing in mythology. Things like: Why would God need sacrifices?
Why doesn't God stop suffering? Why did God create a system of life here on earth where the most fit survive by devouring the weak? Why are all the freaks and sick, and deformed people born? If God can do anything he wants, why all the pain and confusion, and chaos in the world? He either doesn't care anything about us or he can't do anything about it. Why doesn't he just come on TV and splain things?
Dan