If you logically look at Christianity, it just doesn’t add up

Sent in by Anya

When I contemplate my journey through Christianity, I’m reminded of that old Rod Steward song that goes, “If I listened long enough to you, I’d find a way to believe that it’s all true.” More than anything in the world, I wish I could sincerely believe in Jesus or God, but at this point in time, intellectually and logically, there is no reason to believe.

I grew up in a household of lapsed Catholics. They taught me how to pray and we went to church occasionally, but my parents warned that the Bible wasn’t meant to be taken literally. My mom also used to dabble in astrology and even consulted psychics on occasion. Even though I lacked solid religious structure, I always wanted God to be a close part of my life. Before tests and competitions I would pray to the Almighty to help me win. Sometimes it worked, sometimes not. There were times when I experienced such amazing coincidences that I was sure I was getting signs from the Almighty.

In high school I had a boyfriend who was interested in fundamentalist Christianity. The Christians I got to know through him were truly wonderful people, willing to drop anything to help you out. They seemed to exemplify the true spirit of Christ. Of course, there were others that were arrogant and judgmental, but I dismissed them as not being “true Christians”. I also attended Catholic schools for a few years and had many positive experiences with the priests and nuns. I have no sour grapes.

Over the years I continued to identify myself as Christian although I rarely went to church. I still maintained an active prayer life and felt that God was always with me and would protect me and bring me to heaven. To be honest, most of the time I was more worried about my looks, boys, friends, and school, but my underlying belief in the Lord gave me peace of mind. Of course I had been taught about science and evolution but I found ways to rationalize this as being consistent with a Christian God.

This past summer I had what you might call a nervous breakdown and had to be hospitalized for almost a week. For awhile I totally lost touch with reality. I believed all sorts of things that I now recognize are not true. Among those thoughts was a belief that Jesus was coming down from heaven to take me as his bride. This was based on something I read in the book of Revelations. Obviously, this didn’t happen, although I strongly believed it at the time and even thought I had evidence to justify my expectations. Once my mind straightened out, I was left to wonder if some of the most basic religious ideas that I had might not be true either.

It was while studying for the Law School Admission Test that I had an epiphany. Studying for the test taught me to think logically about everything, and that included religion. I started to realize that if you logically look at Christianity, it just doesn’t add up. If even the apostle’s questioned Jesus, how was I supposed to trust in him when all the evidence pointed against his being the son of God. Plus, to believe in Christ you must also take the Old Testament as being true and that book didn’t hold up to scrutiny either. If this is the God that created the universe, then he also created science, logic, and reason. Why would this God want us to believe in him based on hearsay? There were numerous other questions that Christianity couldn’t answer.

I wish Christianity was true. I wish there was a benevolent God looking out for us who would listen to our prayers. Not having God in my life has left me feeling empty and depressed. I have gone from feeling like an immortal being made in the likeness of God to simply an evolved monkey, nothing more than a collection of cells, alone in the cruel world. This change in belief has certainly humbled me. The church can be so seductive, but in my heart I can no longer call myself a Christian. The decision to live in reality has not been an easy or happy one.

460 comments:

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stronger now said...

Anya,

I too have slipped from sanity a bit in the past. I know how hard it was for me to let go of the god belief. You are not alone, however. That's what this site is for, to help exchristians recover. It has been a great help to me and I hope it helps you as well.

Thank you for sharing your story.

trumpeter said...

My readings on this site from last night show an interesting thing. It is that quite mojority of the disappointees of christianigy are women. It's kinda typical for them to say that:

'I was raised up in so so christianistic home and had some sort of faith but later i found that it was all shit. So from now on I will destroy it and save people from that shit although I am sad for I lost the some sorta faith.'

Isn't it interesting why it's so typical of so many enlightened women here?

Please...don't think I am despising women. I just say this becuause it seems like a fact here.

Anonymous said...

Hate to burst your misogynistic bubble Trumpeter, but men too can suffer the deepest depression cuased by the cognitive dissonance associated with TRUE religious enlightenment, ie. that religion is a farce. I know this because I have experienced it and still live it to this day. To say that it has been hard for me to let go of my christian beliefs it quite the understatement. Everyday I wake up feeling either hopelessly despised by a god that I once thought loved me, or I feel hopelessly depressed to know that I too am simply an "evolved monkey." I guess I'm just saying that for some this process of letting go can be harder than it is for others... either man or woman.

Lance said...

Hi Anya,
Thanks for your honest and heartfelt post. I too went through some time feeling very empty after I said goodbye to my imaginary friend.

But over the past year or two, I am feeling more and more comfortable in my new status as a highly evolved primate. I no longer feel the need to condemn others because some book or preacher tells me to. I can give more grace to my fellow primates, because I know they are stuck in the same kind of confusing life that I am.

I am more at peace with life, and with the concept of death. I can seek truth in reality, without needing to try to squeeze reality into some preconceived notion of truth as put forth out in some bronze-age book.

Bottom line is that I feel I have more love, grace, integrity and honor in my life, now that I can face reality as it truly is. And to face it with courage at that.

Even the concept that life is meaningless, expect for the meaning we bring to it, allows be to relax more and be at peace with all the crap that goes on in this world. I am even getting less uptight about the religious beliefs of others.

So hang in there. It is pretty rough for awhile as you navigate these choppy waters. The human brain can be a scary place. But trust yourself and your reason. You are obviously an intelligent person, and one that is not afraid of reality, even if it is uncomfortable.

Peace.

- Lance

P.S. I hope I did not come across as a pompous asshole in this post. I am not trying to puff myself up, as I am still nothing more than partially confused primate myself. But my goal was to give you hope.

trumpeter said...

Anony said: //Everyday I wake up feeling either hopelessly despised by a god that I once thought loved me, or I feel hopelessly depressed to know that I too am simply an "evolved monkey." I guess I'm just saying that for some this process of letting go can be harder than it is for others... either man or woman.//

I frankly share some of your feelings of depressions. What I feel when I wake up is similar to yours, I guess.

So, if possible, I do not want others to suffer the same feelings. No point to purposefully break in their confort zone and spread that undesiralbe feelings.

Ryan said...

I hesitate to post at this time because I sense some hot and sad emotions. Please forgive me.

About this "evolved monkey" idea. The concepts of evolution do not teach that we are "monkeys". The concepts of evolution teach that we share a common ancestry with the animal world, and that includes the "monkeys".

And why we should object is quite beyond me. From our origins in the forest, we know compassion; we know gentle feelings. We also know anger; hate; we know how to strike back when our own our threatened. See those incisors in your jaws? Think about it. Did any jewgod create you with fangs?

I believe in no gods. The sun on my face is just as warm, and my lover's touch is just as sweet.

Ellytoad said...

After no longer thinking that I was a beloved, holy child of an all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, destined to an eternal paradise after just a short life on a steaming dump of a planet with all of its servants of Satan... oh yes, I felt a little sad too. At times I do wish that I was back in the times that I believed, and have the fellowship of my fellow Christian teens and go to my church back in Arizona regularly again (I loved that place).
But at the same time, I remember the fear that I experienced, of losing my salvation, of growing increasingly apathetic of prayer and then fearing being damned for not having prayed enough during life so much that my knees would feel weak. And I remember how happy and relieved I felt when I realized that I had nothing to fear, that it wasn't true.

And after reading a few of Jesus's not-so-loving remarks, I find I don't much miss Him either!

Bill said...

” More than anything in the world, I wish I could sincerely believe in Jesus or God, but at this point in time, intellectually and logically, there is no reason to believe."

That above qoute sums up my life's philosopy to a tee. I am not an exChristian because I was never fully able to buy into it in the first place. Great post.

xrayman

Anonymous said...

Anya,

Thank you for your wonderful post. I am sorry your bubble burst, but I know you are strong and smart and you will get over it, sooner than later. We all recover--to a point at least. I am still deeply digesting my change of beliefs and of my perspective toward life.

Trumpeter said:
" My readings on this site from last night show an interesting thing. It is that quite mojority of the disappointees of christianigy are women. It's kinda typical for them to say that:"

Lorena responds:
Interesting observation, Trumpeter. When I first read that, I thought you were nuts. But then I realized that things have changed here on ex-c. When I first started coming around a couple of years ago, it was rare to find women posting. But recently, there is an avalanche of women coming, which is great. I don't feel so lonely anymore ;)

Amanda James said...

I too never believed christianity. I grew up in a stiffly controlled household and since the tender age of 6, I've always thought of it as crap. How can there be a god who allows his children to be abused mentally, emotionally, and physically by their own parents? It's just taking hold that religion is nothing more than churches trying to control congregations and bring in more money by providing the entertainment factor. Some call this felling the spirit or being slain in the spirit. All it is is the "warm Fuzzies" or endorphins being created to produce that high. All I can say is, trust your heart, not your head.

trumpeter said...

to Lorena,

Maybe it's good for the people who want to destroy christianity that, here, to this site, more and more women come. Because I guess that women has been kinda strong supporters for christianity. So maybe it's your winning game. But, I will go my way, ha ha....

Matthew said...

To the Author-

You say you are left feeling depressed. I think I went through this stage too. You just have to remember one thing, though- the meaning of life is what you make it. Do what makes you happy, inside the letter of the law of course. Life is an amazing ocurrance, there's no need to feel depressed.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan, you really have problems.

I have asked you to stop spamming this site. Now please stop.

Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

All of Dan Marvin's posts from here on out will be deleted.

lynn said...

Dear trumpeter, how very christian of you.

Anonymous said...

" to Lorena,

Maybe it's good for the people who want to destroy christianity that, here, to this site, more and more women come. Because I guess that women has been kinda strong supporters for christianity. So maybe it's your winning game. But, I will go my way, ha ha...."


Ah, what an asshole you are Trumpeter!

trumpeter said...

thank you, Lorena, for your compliment. :)

garrisonjj said...

Anya, I too share many of your feelings. I wish I could follow and believe but something inward prevents this from happening. Abandoning childhood teachings and allowing reason to erradicate previous beliefs is a tough step for me. Driving past a church I revered and now ignore still pangs guilt through my heart.
This after uttering every blasphmey imaginable.
I wish you well as you seem like such a lovely person and this is all we can be. Love one another.

trancelation said...

Anya:

Leaving a belief system behind can be painful. It can be painful because leaving Christianity is EXACTLY the same as attempting to control your alcoholism, or dumping an abusive spouse, or leaving a network of friends that are bad influences. Though it is necessary, it still hurts. And Christianity is all of the above things and more. There is nothing more vile, hateful and draining than Christianity. Christianity is the culmination of all forms of abuse brought to a head and forced down upon people to make them as miserable as the people forcing it down.

Anya, you can see the truth in this by what Christians say. Christians are nothing more than alcoholics of a sort. They are addicted to the misery of Christianity, and are afraid to deal with the pain. My father is an alcoholic; he behaves exactly as Christians do when you confront him with the fact that alcoholism is a bad thing. Like alcoholics, Christians must hit rock bottom, and hit it hard, before they even think of getting their lives in order. And when they see others breaking free (as you have begun to), they will lash out. It is the way of a coward, but this is what Christians are.

So as I said above, breaking free can be painful at first. This is natural. By coming here you have gained something valuable: a support network. We have been through what you are going through, and can offer comfort and advice and words of wisdom, where Christians (the alcoholics) will shun and spurn you for no longer wanting to suffer right along with them. But life is a beautiful thing - and Christianity and its heat stroke-induced visions have no place in that life. You are doing the right thing by acknowledging that Christianity is flawed, and that you must break free. To go along with the alcoholic theme here, it is like you have woken up after a night of binge drinking, and said, "What the hell am I doing to myself?" You have recognized that you must be free, but that it is easier said than done, Anya. But it is the right thing.

Looking at the world with clear eyes, you will see that it is even more amazing. It is incorrect to say that we are from 'monkeys,' but we'll leave that alone for another time. Think about how amazing life is to have evolved to this point, on its own, without the judgmental interference of a god that sent itself to Earth in order to sacrifice itself to itself to save us from itself. We don't need Jesus, or God, or Christianity, or religion. We need only to see the beauty in life. When you do that, you have no need of religion. There is NOTHING that religion can provide you with. NOTHING. But your freedom and integrity can give you EVERYTHING.

Anonymous said...

Many exians here, I've heared say how they wish that xianity were true and it's obviously something that I, as someone who's never been an xian could not understand. I have to say that I could never hope a religion to be true, that tells me the default destiny of all humans is to be tortured forever in a lake of fire, conveniently placed in some unverifiable afterlife. I have to say though, that even though the notion that, all the fantastic complexity and variatey of life on earth as well as all the billions of galaxies in a vast universe was created by an ancient middle eastern war god who orders the death penalty for people who pick up sticks on Saturday, to be, shall we say, somewhat unlikely, I still find myself, I have to admit, being a bit afraid of it and I have pondered why. After all, I was brought up by athiest parents and live in the UK where it's OK to be athiest. What comes up is that throughout my life, particularly childhood, there has been a kind of subliminal hegenomy; I went to a secular state school but there were hymns and prayers to the xian god every morning in assembly, and, in the 60s, the only religion on offer in RE lessons was xian. And then there's the celebration of christmas and easter, which although largely nonreligious would still be part of that 'subliminal hegenomy', perhaps in a particularly potent way for a child - associating an exciting time with a, even if only a subliminally, xian background.
Why do I say subliminal? It's because as a child I didn't consider any of it to be having any effect on me; I espoused my parents atheism naturally. So, I think religion is insidious, and while we have it, it's important to have its apostates; people like you here at exian.net. I think of you as intrepid explorers who have gone out into the darkness of religion and returned able to say "It's OK, it's all bullshit."
Boe

Anonymous said...

"The decision to live in reality has not been an easy or happy one."

Am still struggling with the faith, I feel the same way.

Some nights I sit on my bed and cry over it.

Having some medical issues I am choosing to keep hope alive that there is a God who will help me.

trancelation said...

The hope that there is a God is a crutch. Belief and faith are childlike knee-jerk reactions to the difficulties of life and the deep poison that is religion. Religion is a drug, faith is a disease, and God is, for all intents and purposes, an imaginary terrorist. It is for this reason that those leaving the faith cling to God so, and for this reason that people facing difficulties often revert and cling to the idea of a God, even when there is absolutely no evidence for that God.

I know many atheists find it hard to believe that someone could hope there is a God, and truly, ti is not so much the hope that there is a God as it is a relapsing. Christians are addicted to their religion, and are experiencing a sort of Stockholm syndrome in its grasp. It is easy to relapse when this is the case. I think many of us here at ex-Christian have done it. I'm guilty of relapsing in the past, when things got too difficult. In the end, prayer and belief will do NOTHING, because there is no God. And before the 'trumpeters' claim that we must be patient, that God's will will be done, I have to ask: if God is going to do whatever the fuck it wants, why are we ASKING it for anything to start with? Christians want to see others beg and be miserable like them, and that is the end of it.

And this is not a bad thing. It is just something we have to come to realize and accept. Prayer has NEVER been answered, and never will be answered. I don't think that anybody prays in order to seek connection to a God, because knowing that there is no God, people will pray in the hopes that there is something there that will answer; in this way, prayer is ALWAYS asking, and asking in prayer will always be denied. Not actively, but nonetheless prayer and belief will always result in an empty void. This is why people seek out other people and call the resulting kindness of people God. Because God will never answer, because there is no God, it is easier to project one's hopes onto other real people and make up excuses than deal with the simple fact that there is no verifiable God out there.

The best thing we can do is take respnsibility for our actions and see the beauty in life without God.

scotnogod said...

No offence, but I've never understood the hope for christianity to be true. Sure you get a God looking after you but at such a high price. The vast majority of humanity spending all eternity in hell including any unbelieving loved ones. One would think anyone but the most selfish and criminal minded would hope to God (parden the pun) that christianity isn't true.

Anonymous said...

To Trancelation:
I come to this site to seek support and 'felloeship' with others that are going through what I'm experiencing as an extian. You're comments and advise to Anya have also helped ME alot. I'm a recovering alcoholic/christian. Your analogy of how booze and jesus require the same honest confrontation is dead on correct! It took me years of hopping back and forth from one to the other to realize that the dependence of both 'drugs' was the same thing. When I removed the symptoms of liquor and faith from my life, I finally started to deal with life on lifes' terms. REALITY RULES !! Hang in there y'all!!!

AtheistToothFairy said...

trancelation wrote:
"Belief and faith are childlike knee-jerk reactions to the difficulties of life and the deep poison that is religion. Religion is a drug, faith is a disease, and God is, for all intents and purposes, an imaginary terrorist"
--
Hey Trancelation,

There is a whole LOT of wisdom in those words you wrote !!

I think we should make up some flying-xtian-fish with your words on them, and air-drop them over fundie churches.

There is no doubt that religion is addictive.
What an irony that many churches hold AA meetings for another form of addiction; alcohol, but fail to see their own god addiction problem.


ATF ( Who thinks if they could put the god-addiction drug into a huge hypodermic needle, xtians would still find excuses to 'shoot-up' another dose of god into their veins)

Mandatory Chaos said...

I find more peace in the fact that Christianity isn't true. The fact that it isn't true means that world isn't destined for a firey hell but will only get better as it evolves.

That alone gives me hope that anything is possible and our lives are not limited by the confines of the bible.

Bill said...

Anny Boe Said,

"it's important to have its apostates; people like you here at exian.net. I think of you as intrepid explorers who have gone out into the darkness of religion and returned able to say "It's OK, it's all bullshit."

What a powerful statement that certainly applies to me as one who never really believed. My God belief was never beyond tepid at best. If no one had ever come back from hard core indoctrination to tell about it, I would never be comfortable with my atheist stance.

As I stated earlier I wished Xtianity were true, what an interesting take on that statement a couple of you pointed out. I never thought of the fact that if it were true the vast majority of mankind would be roasting in hell. What a solid point. I have changed my stance.

xrayman

Thackerie said...

I NEVER wanted christianity to be true - not even when I tried, half-heartedly, to believe in some form of it. Now, a loving god that actually helps people? That's a whole 'nother story (and not one you'll find anywhere in the bible).

But, there's no evidence - and, therefore, no reason to "believe" in this type of god, either. So, I just keep on keeping on, doing the best I can, and trying to make the most of whatever limited time I have here. And that is quite enough.

Anonymous said...

To Anya: I see that you aren't happy with the knowledge that Christianity is false. I guess I can't blame you. After all, who wouldn't want to experience heaven? But as for me, I've never felt regret. Yeah, sadly, there is no heaven, but we exist, and even after we're gone, we will always be a part of history. Maybe not written history (none of which will survive for a billion years into the future), but the unwritten, complete history of the universe (space-time contortions and all).

Also, although I won't be going to heaven, I am at least assured of resting in peace. If Christianity were real, and you did use logic to disprove it, then you would spend an eternity tortured in the fires of hell, not in heaven. As would the rest of us. And the billions of other people on the earth who either aren't Christians. Or maybe God just loves either Catholics or Protestants. Or maybe just Baptists. Who knows. But whatever it is, the vast majority of the world's population would be swimming in a lake of fire. And that then gets back to your wish that Christianity were real. If we and billions of others were actually punished in such a way, then would this god even be worth worshipping? Would it truly be better if Christianity were real?

As for your dislike of being an "evolved monkey", I think it's sad that our culture has made us hate animals so much. Have you ever had a dog? Sure, they can be a pain sometimes, but they can also love you unconditionally. They want food, but besides that, they just want you to notice them, and to be with them. They also don't believe in fairy tales. They only know what they can perceive. If only humans could be like them. But no, to us humans, all animals are brutish beings with no feelings. A sad example of our super-evolved superiority complex.

To Trumpeter: It's great that you know everything about this site from your "readings...from last night". Oh yeah, and I'm a man and I guess I "want to destroy Christianity", too. I mean, just last night, I managed to burn down three churches! *high five!* It's too bad that everyone who requires real, hard evidence before believing in something is your enemy. And wow, you are obsessed with the distinction between men and women, with some deep seated anger towards women (the more "emotional" and "less rational" humans - surprisingly actually turning their back on your superstition and using logic and rationality! Imagine that!) Are you sure you're not a Muslim? You'd make a good one!

-Ricky

Passerby said...

Well done webmaster. Just delete everything that doesn't appeal to you. How very democratic of you.

If you argue that this site isn't run democratically, I'll concede. But your behavior certainly reveals you as a very obstinate and closed minded person.

You must have wonderful discussions, with your mirror.

It's no wonder you've never heard the word of God, you've been too busy listening to your own voice.

If the spirits that own your mind ever give you a moments rest, try listening to God during that silence. Despite everything you've done, He's still calling out to you today. He will do so until your last day. While you're still alive His mercy is still an option for you, and for everyone!

Peace.

trumpeter said...

Hi Ricky,

you said: "It's too bad that everyone who requires real, hard evidence before believing in something is your enemy"

I don't know why you say that. Those are rather my friends. You may have good imagnination or is it illusion or paranoia?

Anyway do you have any hard evidence not to believe in and destroy christianity? ha ha...

trancelation said...

ATF and Anonymous before ATF:

You see?

Passerby said:

"Well done webmaster. Just delete everything that doesn't appeal to you. How very democratic of you.

If you argue that this site isn't run democratically, I'll concede. But your behavior certainly reveals you as a very obstinate and closed minded person.

You must have wonderful discussions, with your mirror.

It's no wonder you've never heard the word of God, you've been too busy listening to your own voice.

If the spirits that own your mind ever give you a moments rest, try listening to God during that silence. Despite everything you've done, He's still calling out to you today. He will do so until your last day. While you're still alive His mercy is still an option for you, and for everyone!"

trumpeter said:

"I don't know why you say that. Those are rather my friends. You may have good imagnination or is it illusion or paranoia?

Anyway do you have any hard evidence not to believe in and destroy christianity? ha ha..."

Religion is a mental illness.

Some ex-Christians like to argue theology and history, attacking the problems with the Bible. I, too, can do this as well as anyone. I've read several books on the subject, and while indeed there are hypocricies, innacuracies and contradictions on literally every single page of the Bible, pointing out these problems to Christians is like pointing out why alcohol is bad for you to alcoholics. They are too addicted to see the flaws with what they are addicted to, and how it does not actually solve their problems.

People suffering from mental illness are also incapable of understanding CONTEXT. This is why, when you have discussions or arguments with the mentally ill (in this case Christians), it is so frustrating. Their brains have been dewired for understanding a discussion in its actual context. Reading the above responses from trumpeter and passerby, we can easily see that they have NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT THEY ARE SAYING. Their words they type or speak or think will always revolve around allowing the disease that has claimed them to exist. They are afraid of facing it; they are afraid of freedom and happiness. So instead of acknowledging points made time and again, this will always be the end result. No matter how cogent your point or argument, the Christians will alwayd regress to that knee-jerk childlike state where their minds shut down and succumb to the call of their addiction. Some people call this faith, and admire it. I call it what it is: a disease. A sickness. A psychological, emotional imbalance in the brain of a victim. Faith as a mental disorder adheres to every quality of a mental disorder outlined in the DSM IV.

I personally feel that the only way to deal with Christianity is to treat it as the mental disorder that it really is. This cuts right to the heart of the problem; it does not give Christians an easy way out. Of course they will try to twist words and turn the argument around in their favor, but in the face of direct accusations about their illness they ALWAYS crumble. If everyone dealt with the religiously ill by confronting them about their illness, rather than engaging them in pointless philosophical digressions, the confrontation would always be a short one and would end with the religiously ill person seeking a new target to sate their drug. Faced with rock bottom (no one to torture emotionally with their psychological imbalance), Christians are faced with two possibilities: death or change. Only the most desperate person chooses death.

I've made the point before that I have had mentally ill people in my life; I've had a friend suffering from NPD, and my father is an alcoholic. Christians posses the same qualities as these two kinds of people. Not always in the same degrees, but they are always present. As such, I feel that we as ex-Christians should confront Christians about their illness and demand they recieve treatment for it. Perhaps one day in the hopeful future people will have interventions for the mental illness that is faith in the same way they do for drugs and alcohol.

trumpeter said...

impressive, trancelation, it's an impressive party of groundless accusations.

trancelation said:
//Religion is a mental illness. ...
Faith as a mental disorder adheres to every quality of a mental disorder outlined in the DSM IV.//

Hei, trancelation, I think that mentally normal person does not say strong statements like what you did here without proper evidences to support it.

You said about DSM IV. I ask you to prove that you are mentally ok by submitting the "every quality of a mental disorder outlined in the DSM IV" of faith.

I would like to see who is mentally ill. ha ha...

Astreja said...

I think religion, particularly the variety that causes one to "hear" voices that aren't there, would qualify as a delusional disorder with periodic episodes of schizophrenia.

And 'hei' to you too, Trumpeter. Are you from Norway? Iceland?

trumpeter said...

thank you for your hei, Astreja.

let me keep it, for a while, as secret where i am from. For a few secrets are the perfume of attraction... ha ha...

.:webmaster:. said...

Passerby,

Can you envision any type of circumstance or information that would convince you that Christianity is false?

If your answer is no, then it is you that is closed minded. Remember, I was a dogmatic, dedicated, witnessing, tithing, daily praying at 4 a.m., homeschooling, home group leading, music ministering, prison ministering, tongue talking, Christian for 30 years.

Then one day I stopped closing my mind and looked outside my little Christian box.

.:webmaster:. said...

Here's the documentation you might be seeking, Trumpeter: Religion is a mental illness.

Ha ha!

Passerby said...

Trancelation wrote: "I personally feel that the only way to deal with Christianity is to treat it as the mental disorder that it really is."

A better way to word it, is that humans have a mental disorder, they are sick, with sin. So indeed, Mr. Trancelation, you are correct, I am sick. I am all too often selfish, arrogant, condescending, impatient, dishonest, impure in thought & action, filled with unjustified anger or hatred, etc.... But, despite my deplorable state, I have Hope, Faith & Love in the gift of redemption offered me through Jesus Christ. Through this gift, I have been blessed with much peace and joy, despite the trials and temptations that sourround us all in this world. My journey, is to walk with Christ and to grow more and more into Him throughout the days of my life.

So I ask you, Mr. Trancelation, are you really so healthy? You are free to spend the rest of your life among those that deny their condition, or join those that acknowledge God's word. It is never too late to join those that endeavor for sincerity of heart before God and hope in His graces for healing.

Please don't waste your time trying to diagnose of everyone else. I hope that you take some time to evaluate your spiritual state and maybe, just maybe, God's spirit will see your efforts and bless you with the gift of hope and faith in His salvation!

We are indeed powerless in our own salvation as it is an unmerited gift from God. None of us are truly good, none. Salavation comes from a good God, not a good man.

Peace.

trancelation said...

Christians will often try to turn words around to suit them in their favor, much in the same way that alcohlics, drug addicts and other mentally ill people do. A perfect example of this is how passerby tries to wrestle with my words in order to make them suit the cause of furthering his addiction to religion. Observe:

passerby said:

"A better way to word it, is that humans have a mental disorder, they are sick, with sin. So indeed, Mr. Trancelation, you are correct, I am sick. I am all too often selfish, arrogant, condescending, impatient, dishonest, impure in thought & action, filled with unjustified anger or hatred, etc.... But, despite my deplorable state, I have Hope, Faith & Love in the gift of redemption offered me through Jesus Christ. Through this gift, I have been blessed with much peace and joy, despite the trials and temptations that sourround us all in this world. My journey, is to walk with Christ and to grow more and more into Him throughout the days of my life."

Many of us have had to deal with alcoholics, and they are fond of using statements such as this:

You: But alcohol is bad for you. It makes you drunk, and you do stupid things.

Alcoholic: Yeah, well, EVERYBODY does stupid things. At least I'm honest about it. What about you? Look at you, judging me. So YOU never do anything stupid? At least I get away from it from time to time by tossing back a few. Alcohol helps me deal with my problems. Man, I'm glad I don't have problems like YOU.

See a pattern here, people? Of course you do. The mentally ill will use grandiose emotional assesments of a situation or a person for the sake of furthering their disease. Another poster said that we have to respond to sound bytes with logics; it's no wonder we're fighting an uphill battle. That's exactly what's going on here. Lacking logic, passerby has to resort to appeals to emotion , as alcoholics and drug addicts will do. In an attempt to not have to face his mental disorder, passerby attempts to turn the discussion around and make it about me. Anyone that has ever had an intervention with an alcoholic knows what this is like, and knows that it is to be expected. I was expecting nothing less from passerby and trumpeter and other Christians. I'm not going to engage these people on their terms, by arguing with their words. Passerby and trumpeter and other Christians are suffering from a plethora of mental illnesses.

trancelation said...

trumpeter wants me to show that I am mentally stable by showing that HE is mentally UNstable.

If this is not a clear indication of not being able to grasp context, I don't know what is.

I'm not going to engage Christians like passerby or trumpeter directly in their drawn-out semi-philosphical digressions. This is too much like telling an alcoholic that alcohol is bad for them. They will only make excuses and try to find flaws in YOU.

But for the sake of furthering my argument that religious belief is a mental disorder, here are some resources for those that are interested:

http://video.rationalresponders.com/item/RB6M702YMWXZX6T9

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/fundamentalists/articles/manic-depression.html

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/soury.htm

http://www.nimbus.org/Writings/Academic/Counseling-Psych/ReligiousAddiction.html

Unfortunately, there are not as many resources on this as I would like. One frightening thing I found through this search was that there are many Christians that do not think there is such a thing as mental disorders. Yet another way to manipulate and control the mentally ill that are the religious of this world.

Bill said...

Passerby is a closed minded brainwashed person. It will take him awhile to see the truth, if ever.

I always love how religious people and Jesus followers talk about listening to God. When I did that, as a Christian, it always amounted to me indulging in my own feelings. Very narcissistic.

Elizabeth said...

"Anyway do you have any hard evidence not to believe in and destroy christianity?"

I have some evidence for not believing, yes.

According to the Christian God, the universe has been around for roughly 6,000 years. It doesn't take a geology degree to see numerous amounts of evidence to prove this isn't true. So, either God isn't to be believed because he doesn't exist, OR God isn't to be believed because he lies. And if he lies, well, I'm sure you can see the problem with that.

.:webmaster:. said...

Trancelation said, " One frightening thing I found through this search was that there are many Christians that do not think there is such a thing as mental disorders. "

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Mental disorders are caused by the Devil, or demons, or some spiritual lack, etc. Physical ailments may or may not be spiritual, but mental is nearly always considered spiritual.

Therefore, those with real mental issues are discouraged from seeking real help.

The heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, and so forth are all considered organs -- organs that could have something go wrong. But the brain? No, no, no! The brain is somehow exempt from having something wrong with it in Christian thought. The brain isn't really an organ, I guess.

trumpeter said...

dear webmaster,
I admire your tenacity and devotion in searching for truths on world, religion, and life. When I say religion it is not only christianity- also buddhism.

And i share some of the frustration you might have encountered during that search. I am maybe not far different type of person from yours.

But, what i want to say now is some technical thing. I read some responses in "recent commnets" section but I don't see them here. Hopefully not a crooked minded person hacked this site. If it is normal process, my apology to you for my short patience. thanks...

trumpeter said...

ok that's good you guys found some hard evidences on christians' mental illness. I have read some of those.

But, on earth, how many christians, do you think, are? and how many have that kind of illnesses. Do you think it's proportionate? oh, no, no. ha ha...

Dan Marvin said...

trumpeter: "When I say religion it is not only christianity- also buddhism."

Oops maybe I spoke too soon. Trumpeter are you a Christian? Were you born again?

Spirula said...

None of us are truly good, none.

Ah yes, Worm Theology. How could I forget those days. Nothing truly warms the cockles of the heart like a nice hefty dose of self-loathing.

trumpeter said...

hei, damn arvin

sometimes, you seem like the leatherface who wields the chainsaw. Maybe even worse because you don't know who is on your side.

ok, let me ask you how many times have you been born again? one time? two times? three times? ha ha....

Bill said...

(xrayman, other Bill)

Hey Trancelation,

As a recovering drunk I take a mild offense to the statement you made compairing alcoholism to religion. When I was a hard core drunk, I had no illusions that I didn't have a problem. I knew it plain and simple but I didn't want to change until I was ready where as the hard core religious person is truly deluded.

What part of ExChristian don't those two Bozos above understand. It just kills me when someone stops by and acts as if none of us has heard of Jesus. This isn't called, "Been living in a Cave Never Heard of God Dot Com."

trumpeter said...

Hey, Dan,

Don't be too much offended for i changed your nick name. you just seemed, to me, like damning a lot of people who are different from you. But no personal offense intended.

Dan Marvin said...

trumpeter, you still haven't answered the question.

You said born again? one time? two times? three times? ha ha....

Dude, being 'born again' DOES NOT mean over and over again. So how many times did you come out of your mom's womb?

trumpteter said...

ok Dan,

What is "born again?" Tell me your noble opinion.

Dan Marvin said...

I guess that answers it then, you are not.

John 3:3-8

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

stronger now said...

Dan:"trumpeter, you still haven't answered the question."

Who are you to demand an answer to any question, ye who answers not?

So, tell me Dan, why do you believe those wicked liars? Hmmm?

Also:

Dan Marvin VS. Trumpeter.

I'll pop some corn, this should be interesting, if not for it being on the ex-christian site.

Both of you go away and come back when you "christians" agree on everything.

MMkay.

Dan Marvin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dan Marvin said...

OOPS I just don't answer your questions because you are so disrespectful in your questioning. I have answered all sorts of questions everywhere but just because you don't get a response from me doesn't mean I do that to everyone.

Is that how you treated God also? No wonder you don't believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

Dave8 said...

I'm a born again Atheist... well, at least I found my way home :-) Hope you find your way back to your atheism as well Dan - you know, you weren't born baptized and accepting God/Jesus ;-)

trumpeter said...

Dan,

You really like damning others, huh?

I am asking how you know you are "born again" and others not?

Tell me, you pompous holyistic guy. What are the evidences that show you are "born again."

trumpeter said...

Dan said: //OOPS I just don't answer your questions because you are so disrespectful in your questioning.//

Sorry if you felt like that. I just asked your opinion on your "born again." Why is it disrespectful? So, when you ask me, it's respectful, but when i ask you, is it disrespectful? So, when you ask others if they are "born again," that's remarkably respectful, huh?

ok I am asking you again. Sir, Mr. Dan, Your Majesty, What is your noble opinion on your "born again?" and what are the evidences that show you were "born again?"

So now am i respectful enough?

trumpeter said...

Dan, Your Magesty, you need to know whether you are helping others into ex-c or not with your wonderful talent of sickening others.

With respect

Passerby said...

Please everyone. No one has the right to damn anyone; God is judge, not man.

Matthew 7:1-2 will reflect this truth.
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you."

On this point, I’d just like to clarify that this does not mean that we don’t have the right or the ability to recognize sin. What matters most is that we focus our attention on improving ourselves; always striving to be more pleasing to God. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 7:3
"Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?"

I think that all true Christians are endeavoring to please God in this way and that they all need to be very mindful of other temptations that abound during this journey. Just when you see yourself having apparent victory over one sin (say of lust), pride is very likely a new temptation. There is no cure that comes from man for our state, the cure is God Himself. Prayer, charity, sacrifice are pleasing to God in our journey to holiness. There’s no other way to holiness except through God’s grace, don’t try to do it on your own, you’ll fail. Humbly ask Him for help…and watch our wonderful righteous Teacher come to your aid!

As far as knowing whether or not you’re born again?

How about asking yourself if you love God, as He revealed Himself in Jesus? Do you love Jesus? Do you want to be just like Him? Do you hope in Him for guidance in all trials and temptations of your life? If you answered yes to all of these questions, you must be born again. No one really loves God unless they are born of His Spirit.

I recall a time, many years in fact, where Jesus was nothing but a historical figure to me. I had no real love for Him. I was born again when I realized that everything He said in the gospels was about me. Despite having “heard” hundreds of sermons during my upbringing, I heard nothing. Not once did anything that was said make sense to me, until God blessed me with the ability to hear His voice.

My greatest fear would be to fall asleep again. For this reason, I aim to stay close to Him. Like Dan, I’ve been blessed with children and what a wonderful blessing it has been to have been converted before I became a father a few years ago!

Congratulations on your new child Dan! May God bless all of our children with spiritual health in the midst of the world’s apostasy.

Peace.

Dan Marvin said...

trumpeter "I am asking how you know you are "born again" and others not?

Matthew 7:15-21

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

trumpeter: Dan said: //OOPS I just don't answer your questions because you are so disrespectful in your questioning.//

Sorry if you felt like that. I just asked your opinion on your "born again."


Dude, with all do respect all those words were for stronger now. I should have been clear on that, I apologize.

As for my original question that you still haven't answered. Are you born again?

At this point any True Christian would be very happy to tell their story or to share the Gospel.

1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

Peace

*I will touch on Passerby's comment separately

.:webmaster:. said...

Hey Dan,

Which translation of the English Bible is the most correct version?

Dan Marvin said...

Good question'

As far as the different translations, there is a sliding scale so I take all of them into account and not trust any 'one' thing that man has done. I stay close to literal and conservative as possible. The translations start from very conservative and literal translations like Young's Literal, Darby then to KJV then on up to the top of the more modern and liberal translations like NLT, NASB, and the most liberal New Jerusalem Bible (NJB).

Dan Marvin said...

Passerby,

Thanks for those kind words Passerby and all the same to you and your blessed children.

I agree 100% with we are to glorify God in everything we do. How can we truly glorify God. Are we not to judge the lost? Are we to coddle evil?

Passerby you brought up good verses (Matthew 7:1-2) but in good hermeneutics we must take it in context. I believe the author is addressing Christians judging other Christians to bicker over small things. Like Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

We Judge not according to the appearance, but we judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

Like I said this ealier: Remember what it says in Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"

But what does this truly mean. Does that mean we are to love them no matter what they do because we are sinners also? Do we coddle them in their sins, tell them God loves them no matter what? Nope Jesus was clear when he said this. He was telling us what the standard was. The way to show your love to your neighbor is to warn them and their sins will take them to hell.

The only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

We are to judge false teachings. Understand that there is such a thing as absolute truth. The Bible tells us that there's only one God in all existence, that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, that we are justified by grace through faith, that Jesus died on the cross, that he rose from the dead physically, etc. These are the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. If there were a religion that contradicted these essentials, then that religion would not be true because Jesus gave us the truth and anyone who contradicts what Jesus said, is not true. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days they would be many false Christ's and false prophets who would arise and deceive many. If it did not matter about different religious systems, then why did Jesus warn us about just that?

We cannot say which groups that this individual was thinking of, but let's take the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses as examples. Both the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses state that they believe in God, the Bible, Jesus, and his sacrifice. Yet, I state that these two groups are not Christian. Why is that? This is because the Mormons teach that God used to be a man on another planet, that he has a goddess wife, that they both have bodies of flesh and bones, and that forgiveness of sins is not by grace through faith alone, but by grace plus obedience to the laws of God. Mormons are also polytheist, where the Bible teaches monotheist. This violates basic Christian teaching.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, deny that Jesus Christ is God in flesh and they also deny his physical resurrection. Since of the deity of Christ and his physical resurrection are essential doctrines of the Christian faith, the Jehovah's Witnesses are denying those essentials and are therefore not Christians.

We see that the more we know what the truth of God's Word is, the more we realize that there are counterfeit groups who seek to appear Christian and teach unchristian things. This is why it is necessary for Christians to judge and expose those false groups.(help from carm.org)

trumpeter said...

Dan,

If your baby ask you that "are you really a man?," what would be your feeling about the baby?

Just think that's maybe very similar to what i am feeling about you.

Dan, you go your way without turning back until you grow out of the baby. And don't cry any more for me not to care about your profound questions.

You are so wonderfully talented to sicken me off. Be proud of yourself.. for i guess few on earth share your precious talents. ha ha....

trumpeter said...

just a more kindness for Dan.

you please understand the baby's question of "are you really a man?" as "are you really a human?"

it's not "are you really a male?" Clear? good.

with respect.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan said: "he only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

So this passage is to be taken literally and obeyed by Christians, apparently. However, the fourth of the Ten Commandments is to be spiritualized right out of existence.

Danny boy, I thought you'd washed your hands of us! That didn't last long, did it?

Dan, you're a hoot.

Passerby said...

Dan,

Yes, indeed I agree with you on everything you said. The part that does not sit well is that you could make an objective conclusion about the salvific state of any one person. You see, only God can see a person’s life in its entirety and judge with perfect objectivity. It’s true that He said many clear statements about those that follow Him. That we must eat His flesh and blood, that we must believe in Him, etc… but He also said many things about judgment. Did He allow everyone to condemn the adulteress? No, because they are all sinners. I find that Jesus is always looking for us to look inside ourselves. Repentance is not a one time event; it is a continual event throughout life. Once I learned that the bible was talking about me as a sinner, by God’s grace a deep repentance followed. A repentance of venial sins (and I hope never grave sin) will continue throughout the days of my life.

You posed the questions: “Are we not to judge the lost? Are we to coddle evil?”

I absolutely agree that we are to judge behavior, beliefs, false teachings, etc… but that it is always done by presenting people with God’s word. Never by stating that they are lost, which is much too lofty a statement for any man to make, in my opinion. I know that I hope and have faith in Jesus’ work on Calvary but I never will state conclusively that I am saved while another man is not. The problem with stating anything so conclusive about anyone’s salvation is that it’s in no longer evangelizing with love. We can know in our hearts that a person’s behavior is very offensive to God, we can share with this person that we are worried about their spiritual state. We can even say that we worry that they are no longer in a state of grace, but we cannot make that conclusive statement “You are going to Hell.”.

Blessings to all and yes, to all those that continue to deny the existence of God, you do risk eternal separation from God. Christians around the world are praying for all disbelievers to hear and accept the word of God. Once the truth reaches a man, it becomes very difficult to see people living in such apostasy. This is why Dan, myself and others put our 2 cents on this site, because life here on earth will appear as nothing but a fleeting shadow to everyone someday. The only difference is that some of us will be winners and others, losers.

Peace.

.:webmaster:. said...

"Muslims love the fleeting external life and have forgotten to pursue the internal jihad with all their heart, mind and soul...

Yes, even if they see all the Signs of Allah, they will not believe in them! "
-- LINK. Also see LINK

Yule Goat 2 Hell said...

Dan Marvin vs. trumpeter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumfights

These two can't possibly be real! It's as if someone hired a couple of boozy bums off of skidrow, paying them each off with a bottle of cheap hooch, to come here and duke it out for our amusement.

Of course, there is an educational component to the spectacle of them flinging shit (i.e., bible verses) at each other to prove which one is the True Christian™. We couldn't ask for a clearer demonstration of the mental disease that is their religion.

stronger now said...

(munching...munching...takes a drink)

Dan,

You call me "shallow" and then accuse me of being disrespectful?

nice.

Your own words are the ones I use to describe those men who wrote the bible.

You are dodging the question.

I asked you a fair and direct question, Dan. I suspect that you cannot answer, even if you wanted to.(in a well reasoned way, that is)

So how about you stop your little ad hominem attack on me and answer?

How about if I said pretty please?

Pretty please with a cherry on top?

Is your pride that important to you that you refuse to answer my simple question?

If you had a well resoned answer to my question it could sway me to believe.

Also, thanks for insulting my former faith and walk. It really lets me understand how much you care.

boomSLANG said...

Dear perpetually annoying Christian, AKA "Dan Marvin",

You've been exposed as a bold-faced liar. To review, you first said there is "nothing" required to become "saved"; "salvation" is a "free gift".[paraphrazed] You later delineated what one must do to be "saved", and thus, recanted your original statement when I called you out on it. Nonetheless, that fact that you stuck your big fat stinky apologetic foot in your big fat pie-hole would make perfect sense, because throughout your long drawn-out religious blatherings, you continually harp on the fact that "man is wicked", and thus, cannot be trusted. Precisely! You cannot be trusted, and I/we don't trust a thing that you say.

Furthermore, your apologetic approach is crippled from the get-go, because your source..e.g..the "Holy Bible", is what you cite for your evidence. In other words, that's like me insisting that Santa Claus exists, and when you ask me for evidence, I bludgeon you to death with quotes from "T'was the Night Before Christmas".

Now, are you really such a vapid dolt to think that if you sit at your PC quoting scripture that you will reconvert any one of us? Can you seriously not figure out that you are only reinforcing our decision(s) to leave the mind-cult of Christianity behind, as the right choice? News flash: You are reinforcing the fact that Christianity is utter BULLSHIT.

Now, please GO AWAY; enjoy your delusions elsewhere.(and take your side-kick Trumpet player with you....ha ha)

alanh said...

Dan, you are confused about what "born again" means. Born again is baptismal regeneration, see this page at catholic.com.

Dan Marvin said...

Passerby,

It reminds me of Romans 3:3-11. I understand your valid points the Lords wisdom is with you. We shall meet someday and that will be a glorious time. For the record I merely asked if trumpeter was born again. We are NOT the ultimate judge, I agree. We can say to an unrepentant sinner that they shall surely meet God's wrath without the repentance and trust in the Lord. It's biblical. (Romans 3:20)

There is a rule that I follow and that is LAW to the proud (Proverbs 16:5) and GRACE to the humble.(Isaiah 66:2) We must prepare the soil for the seed of salvation otherwise they may end up a stony ground hearer or false convert. We must approach God with a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 34:18,Psalm 51:17) otherwise we don't understand and fear the Lord.

For the unsaved:

The Bible describes hell as unquenchable fire,(Mark 9:43) outer darkness,(Matthew 22:13) a furnace of fire and a place where people wail and gnash their teeth,(Matthew 13:42) and a lake of fire.(Revelation 20:15) where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched,(Mark 9:48) and where people are in agony in flames.(Luke 16:24) Perhaps the most terrifying passage in the Bible describing hell says that men will "drink the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night." (Revelation 14:10-11)

That should make all of us have fear, like a child fears a spanking if they run out in the street after the parent told them not to.(milk) When the child grows up then the child understand the perfect love and doesn't fear the spankings but honors and respects the parent.(meat).

1 Corinthians 3:2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."

Hebrews 5:11-13 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

A proud unrepentant man needs the milk of hell and damnation and lake of fire talk. After you grow up understanding the Lord and you are 'born again' you don't fear the punishment anymore because it isn't for you, it's for the sinners. Do you fear going to jail for a DUI when you sit at home drinking a glass of water? Of course not that is absurd, but if you were drinking scotch all day and then get behind the wheel then yes be afraid be very afraid. It is wise to face you heavenly Father in fear when you have broken His law. When you Repent (turn away from sin, turn away from breaking His laws. 1 John 3:4) and Trust and Faith in Jesus that he washed you clean and took your punishment for you, then you are forgiven and no longer need be afraid of Him but you respect and love Him for teaching you and you chose not to live to break His laws out of honor and respect, not fear anymore.

The wrath of God is upon the unsaved please understand that I mean no harm to any of you. That is the reason why we try our very best to convince you, with love, that without Jesus you will all perish.

.:webmaster:. said...

"That should make all of us have fear, like a child fears a spanking if they run out in the street after the parent told them not to.(milk) When the child grows up then the child understand the perfect love and doesn't fear the spankings but honors and respects the parent.(meat)."

Huh? Really?

You mean threatening to keep a human being alive and roasting that human being in unquenchable fire forever and ever and ever is love?

WOW! Now that is amazing grace!

Dan, your analogy seems more akin to a rapist holding a knife to the throat of an unwilling paramour and threatening to slice her throat unless she returns his affections. Of course it's her free choice to choose one way or the other.

I wonder how your god's "love" would fare in a human court of law?

Dan, here's a Word of Knowledge for you: When the cuckoo crows thrice, you'll be back regurgitating more legendary mythology.

Holy popcorn! Am I a prophet or what?

alanh said...

Dan, you are contradicting yourself. First you say the unsaved will be tormented with fire and brimstone, and the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night. Then you say "without Jesus you will all perish." Perish means to pass from existence, so which is it? Eternal torture or nonexistence?

Also I'm not convinced that you have been born again. From catholic.com:

-----------
For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again."

"If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!" says the preacher. So the gentleman makes "a decision for Christ" and at the altar call goes forward to be led in "the sinner’s prayer" by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—"born again." But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible.
------------------

You'd better get it right, your eternal soul is at stake!

Dan Marvin said...

The Bible says to evaluate everything to see if it is of God by its fruit, good tree = good fruit; a bad tree can never bear good fruit. We don’t even have to address the Catholic Church and the mass pedophiles, and the crusades to determine the fruit, it is obvious.

Perish= Second Death (Revelation 21:8,Luke 13:3)

Read the Bible it's all in there.

boomSLANG said...

Dan Marvin: The Bible says....blah, blah, blabbity-blah, blah, blah, thou blah, blah-blah-blah, blabbity blah. Blah-men.

Blah?

stronger now said...

Dan,

Still can't answer, huh?

Great.

Just as I suspected all along.

You have nothing of substace to offer.

Now run along.

Dan Marvin said...
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Dan Marvin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dan Marvin said...

Stronger now,

Your presuppositions will not allow you to examine without bias the evidence that I present to you. There are too many points to make before I jump in with evidence of the Bible

Will your presuppositions allow unbiased examination of the evidence?

What would qualify extraordinary evidence?

What criteria is used to determine what is extraordinary evidence?

Is the criteria for extraordinary evidence reasonable?

trumpeter said...

hei, ex-c's, I admire your recruiting ability.

Where did you find Dan? He is an impeccable hard worker for you. you must pay him a lot. ha ha...

Oh, Wonderful Dan, oh wonderful ex-c's.

Dan Marvin said...

With some help from Christian apologetics, here are the points why we should believe in Christianity instead of other religions:

1. There are such things as absolute truths

2. Religions contradict each other; therefore, they cannot all be true.

3. Fulfilled Prophecy concerning Jesus

4. The Claims and Deeds of Christ

5. Christ's resurrection

Why should anyone trust in Christianity over Islam, Buddhism, Mormonism, or anything else? It is because there are absolute truths, because only in Christianity is there accurate fulfilled prophecies of a coming Messiah. Only in Christianity do we have the extremely accurate transmission of the eyewitness documents (gospels) so we can trust what was originally written. Only in Christianity do we have the person of Christ who claimed to be God, performed many miracles to prove His claim of divinity, who died and rose from the dead, and who said that He alone was the way the truth and the life. All this adds to the legitimacy and credibility of Christianity above all other religions -- all based on the person of Jesus. If follows that if it is all true about what Jesus said and did, then all other religions are false because Jesus said that He alone was the way, the truth, and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). It could not be that Jesus is the only way and truth and other religions also be the truth.

Either Jesus is true and all other religions are false or other religions are true and Jesus is false. There are no other options. I choose to follow the risen Lord.

alanh said...

Dan, you are a heretic (2 Peter 1:20)

Dan Marvin said...

Alanh,

I don't understand your point. I am a heretic how?

Plus let's use proper hermeneutics and read it in context.

2 Peter 1:19-21(Amplified Bible)

19 And we have the prophetic word [made] firmer still. You will do well to pay close attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dismal (squalid and dark) place, until the day breaks through [the gloom] and the Morning Star rises (comes into being) in your hearts.

20 [Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving).

21 For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it [to do so--it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit.

Explain your point I'm curious. Have I made a mistake?

SIDE NOTE: who hates the word verification feature? I turned mine off (an option). Is there a reason you are using it webmaster?

Astreja said...

Dan, get thee to a logic class. What you have described is a false dichotomy.

It's quite possible that all religions are false. There you go, a third possibility.

See the trouble you can get yourself into with all-or-nothing thinking?

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan,

All you are doing is parroting Bible verses. You do realize we've all read that book before, right? I've read it cover to cover dozens of times, memorizing much of it, and studying it in depth for decades. The trouble is, I don't believe it is anything more than a collection of myths, legends, history, and primitive religious ramblings. I see no objective or preternatural truth in it. Quoting from ancient mythology is not evidence of anything. Sorry.

And, there are no accurately fulfilled prophecies of Jesus. Show me one supposed fulfilled prophecy and I'll show you where you are ignoring the context of the verse or severely twisting out of shape the plain meaning of the text.

Jim Arvo said...

Dan, I know your last post was directed toward "stronger now": I hope neither of you minds if I jump in and offer a few comments.

Dan, you said "Your presuppositions will not allow you to examine without bias the evidence that I present to you."

Let's suppose that's so. How about your presuppositions, Dan? Will they allow you to examine the evidence you offer objectively? I assert that they will not. It's very common for adherents of any belief system (particularly religions) to accept "evidence" uncritically when it supports their beliefs. For instance, they tend to accept uncorroborated stories, overlook contradictions and anomalies, and project radically oversimplified (if not outright fabricated) beliefs onto others.

You asked stronger now "Will your presuppositions allow unbiased examination of the evidence?"

I'll give you my answer to that. No, I cannot look at much of anything without bias. We all have presuppositions and biases. Even you, Dan. So, to my way of thinking, that's entirely the wrong question. Allow me to propose a more useful set of questions:

1) Are you willing to attempt to identify your presuppositions, and examine them?

2) Are you willing to admit that you have biases, and look for ways to mitigate them?

3) Can you seriously entertain arguments that run counter to your biases and presuppositions?

If you can answer those affirmatively, and DEMONSTRATE that you can, then we are getting somewhere. What's your opinion on that?

Dan asked "What would qualify extraordinary evidence?"

"Extraordinary evidence" has no clear definition, just as "credible evidence" lacks a precise definition. However, we can rule some things out, and construct a few hypothetical positive examples. Here is a list of things that I consider to fall well short of credible, which is in turn well short of "extraordinary": testimonies by unknown (e.g. anonymous) witnesses, uncorroborated hearsay, gut feel, personal conviction, etc. Here is an example of evidence that I would consider clearly extraordinary, yet COULD have accompanied an event such as god visiting earth: A succinct and impeccably accurate and unambiguous message delivered to EVERY culture in the world in EVERY language, on the SAME day, and recorded thousands of times by thousands of independent witnesses all around the world. If that had happened--if every culture attested to the same phenomenon, reported the same message, and from the same recorded day, then I would happily admit that something absolutely extraordinary had happened. I can think of many scenarios like this.

Let me ask you this, Dan. If god himself donned flesh and walked the earth for thirty some years, performing miracles for the masses, preaching, spreading a message of unparalleled importance, why is there absolutely NO mention of this from that time period? Why does NO historian or writer coeval with this supposed Jesus give him the slightest mention? Why are there only a few dubious extrabiblical mentions of Jesus before the 2nd century? Why would the most important event in the history of the universe go virtually unmentioned for so long? Why did it take until the 4th century for artwork depicting Jesus to appear? Why were there early Christian sects that believed in a purely spiritual Jesus, and others who believed in a non-divine Jesus? Why were first century Christians apparently uninterested in the place of Jesus' birth, death, and sermons?

Anonymous said...

I'm always so disappointed in sites like this. I find something I think I can connect with, and before too long the discourse degenerates into name calling and fighting and trolling. You guys are just as bad as those who argue doctrine on the Christian web sites. Where are the sane and decent people?

Anonymous said...

I thought this was a site for EX-Christians? Hello?

.:webmaster:. said...

This is for ex-Christians, but anything that in any way even slightly challenges Christianity, even benignly, is simply irresistible to Christians.

Anony, if the blog is not to your liking, try the forum. It's registration only, closely monitored, and a closed haven of sorts for former Christians.

stronger now said...

Jim, thanks for the support.

Dan,

I was not asking for "evidence" for the bible. I was asking why you believe what people with "wicked lying hearts" wrote about your god.

This has NOTHING to do with my presuppositions. It is a question about your presuppositions.

You said all men have wicked lying hearts.(I can pull your exact words if I must) I assumed that by "all men" you also included the men who wrote the bible.

So, I am simply asking for a well reasoned answer as to why you believe dead men, who you yourself admit were liars.

Wicked liars.

You have no ongoing discussions with those men. And yet you believe them, as if you could determine that they had NO selfish presuppositions OR bias in their writing.

Again you have dodged the question.

trumpeter said...

hei, stronger now,

Christians believe that the bible wirters were protected from getting in of their humanly sinfulness.

does it answer to your question? ha ha...

stronger now said...

No. Trumpeter, it doesn't.

If it is suggested in the bible that the writers of the bible were seperated from their sinfull nature when writing the bible then it does nothing to answer the question, because it brings up the question again.

If it isn't suggested in the bible then it is a personal opinion that christians hold and doesn't answer the question, other than to say it's an opinion that the writers were seperated from their sinful nature when writing the bible. This would be the opinion of a person not seperated from his/her sinful nature and therefore, useless as a well reasoned answer.

Is that clear, or must I be more descriptive?

rickyusvi said...

Anonymous #6270565343924261368 wrote: “I'm always so disappointed in sites like this. I find something I think I can connect with, and before too long the discourse degenerates into name calling and fighting and trolling. You guys are just as bad as those who argue doctrine on the Christian web sites. Where are the sane and decent people?”

If the fucking proselytizers would quit shitting on us all the time, the place might be more pleasant.

trumpeter said...

so, Stronger Now, what do you want?

tell me, please, in a short sentence, what exactly you want to know.

rickyusvi said...

Passerby wrote: “I recall a time, many years in fact, where Jesus was nothing but a historical figure to me. I had no real love for Him. I was born again when I realized that everything He said in the gospels was about me. Despite having ‘heard’ hundreds of sermons during my upbringing, I heard nothing. Not once did anything that was said make sense to me, until God blessed me with the ability to hear His voice.”

This is called “schizophrenia.” Please see a doctor at once!

_________________

alanh quoted catholic.com: “...”

Oooh, another species of True Christian™ joins the bum fight! This is getting good.

*munch*

_________________

DaMn arvin wrote: “Stronger now,

“Your presuppositions will not allow you to examine without bias the evidence that I present to you. There are too many points to make before I jump in with evidence of the Bible

“Will your presuppositions allow unbiased examination of the evidence?

“What would qualify extraordinary evidence?

“What criteria is used to determine what is extraordinary evidence?

“Is the criteria for extraordinary evidence reasonable?”


(Considers asking Dan to rest his left ankle on a train track, etc.)

DaMn arvin wrote: “With some help from Christian apologetics, [...]”

You really don’t get it, do you?

DaMn arvin wrote: “Either Jesus is true and all other religions are false or other religions are true and Jesus is false. There are no other options.”

Ooh, ooh! (raises hand) I can think of a third option:

(Darn. Astreja beat me too it.)

stronger now said...

What I want is a well reasoned answer to the question I asked.

Why does Dan believe those wicked liars?

alanh said...

Dan

The point is that according to the Catholic church you're a heretic (doctrine of private judgment, fiducial faith.) According to you, Catholicism is discredited due to its "fruits." You both read the same book, yet can't agree. Until someone can produce some concrete corroborating evidence, at this point there is no reason to assume that any of it is true. Unless you have such evidence (and it shows that you're not a heretic) don't bother posting more pointless apologetics.

Dan Marvin said...

The point is that according to the Catholic church you're a heretic (doctrine of private judgment, fiducial faith.)

That does not bother me at all. "Are Roman Catholics Christians? They are, if they have trusted in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins. However, if they believe that the are saved by God's grace and their works, then they are not saved -- even if they believe their works are done by God's grace -- since they then deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ, which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a man made ritual and certainly not the Catholic saints. Even though the Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.

The official Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation is that the grace of God is infused into a baby at baptism -- making him/her justified before God.1 This justification can be lost through sin and must be regained by repeated participation in the many sacraments found in the Roman Catholic Church. These sacraments increase the measure of grace in the person by which he or she is enabled to do good works, which are in turn rewarded with the joy of heaven:
If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to Scripture. Therefore, as a whole, Roman Catholics need to be evangelized. They need to hear the true Gospel. They need to hear that they are not made right before God by being in a church, or by being baptized, but by receiving Christ (John 1:12), believing that Jesus has risen from the dead (Rom. 10:9), and that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1) and not by our deeds (Rom. 4:5). It is only true faith that results in true works (James 2), not the other way around. Roman Catholics, like anyone else, need to trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins and not the Catholic sacraments, not the words of the priest, not the Pope, not Mary, not the saints, not penance, not indulgences, not the rosary, etc. Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

Finally, I believe that there are truly regenerate Christians in the Roman Catholic church. But, they are truly Christians in spite of official RCC theology and in spite of the ritualistic offerings of this ancient church which has had too many hands meddling in it through the centuries, gradually moving it away from orthodoxy and into apostasy. Yes, apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity.

Jesus alone saves. Jesus alone is Lord. Only Jesus' sacrifice can cleanse us. Only by faith are we made right before God. Justification is by faith, not by anything we do." (carm)

stronger now said...

(munching...munching...takes a sip)

O.k. Dan, any answer yet or are you still trying to think it through?

Dan Marvin said...

Stronger now,

I would rather point you to some pages written about this subject so I just don't c&p it. The credit belongs to carm.org not me, but I have read them and agree with both. It does represent how I feel about this subject.

First is: Evidential Apologetics

Second would be: Inspiration and Inerrancy

And if you continue saying it was all made up and faked so they could just write a best seller book I will submit this The Disciples stole Jesus' body and faked His resurrection

Jim Arvo said...

Dan said "If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to Scripture. Therefore, as a whole, Roman Catholics need to be evangelized. They need to hear the true Gospel."

I say go for it, Dan. Can I watch? :-)

Dan, Dan, Dan... You say that the RCC position is "contrary to scripture". You do realize that there are differing interpretations of scripture, do you not? Or do you claim that Catholics *know* their beliefs are contradicted by scripture? Catholics will cite James 2:24 as well as various passages from Galatians in support of their position. You read these differently, I presume. How might we go about determining whose interpretation is correct?

By the way, can you PLEASE address the question that "stronger now" has been asking you? Why not take a few minutes and address that squarely?

Dan Marvin said...

Look at the fruit, is it good? How many false converts and atheists come from catholicism?

Let me submit these verses And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

We are to follow and confess to Jesus not mankind.

Jim Arvo said...

Dan,

I posted my message above before I saw your latest one. I see you did try to address the question after all. Thanks for that. Now, it seems that you are saying that what the Biblical writers wrote is inerrant because they were "inspired". Did I get that part right? I suspect that you support the claim that they were inspired by prophecy--but please correct me if I'm wrong about that. You need to offer *something* to support the claim that they were divinely inspired, otherwise you have simply substituted one fantastic claim with another.

That first link you provided on "Evidential Apologetics" is entertaining. I didn't read the whole thing--I only spent about five minutes on it. But that first exchange between "Allen" and "Paul" is an absolute hoot. I hope everyone will read it. I think it's a lovely example of a facile argument; "Allen" asks superficial questions and "Paul" offers glib answers. From a cursory glance at that page I can already tell you that it's filled with question begging, such as assuming the full force of an "eyewitness" testimony when no such testimony is available--only hearsay reports of such.

Have you considered any of the arguments put forth by skeptics, Dan? I mean *actual* arguments, not straw men constructed by apologists?

.:webmaster:. said...

From CARM: When we say that the Bible is inspired, we are saying that it is authored from God...

Well duh! That's what "ye" say, huh? No kidding that's what ye say. And Islamic's say much the same thing about their scriptures.

What ye say is not evidence of what is, that is only evidence of what ye say.

Get it?

Prophecy: Zech. 12: "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place. "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Taking the entire passage in context, it is obvious that there was no prophecy fulfilled by anyone. Christians throughout history have been picking out little peices of passages that that sort of, kind of, reminds them of, this or that, and say, WHOOAH! JESUS PROPHECY!

In the section in Micah where supposedly Bethlehem is prophesied to be the birthplace of Jesus, this is what comes next: When the Assyrian invades our land and marches through our fortresses, we will raise against him seven shepherds, even eight leaders of men. They will rule the land of Assyria with the sword, the land of Nimrod with drawn sword. He will deliver us from the Assyrian when he invades our land and marches into our borders.

This oft touted "birthplace" passage obviously has nothing to do with Jesus' birth. I mean, what is all this ranting about Assyria?

Psalm 22 contains all sorts of weird poetical phrases, including this: For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help. From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows. [...] All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him.

Suffice to say that anyone who bothers to read any of these passages or any other in their actual context will immediately notice that NONE OF THE SUPPOSED PROPHECIES have anything to do with the Jesus character in the New Testament. They are fulfilled in the same way that Nostrodamus' prophecies were fulfilled. People reading the vague poetry and finding similarities to actual events, and saying, "SEE! PROPHECY FULFILLED!"

Christians insist that all scripture MUST be taken in context in order to be properly interpretted. But when it comes to finding snippets that seem to support their agenda, context goes out the window.

The writers of the New Testament gospels arbitrarily applied scripture in this out-of-context way, and since Christians must simply believe that the Bible is inerrant, then it is assumed that the writers of the gospels didn't misapply anything. In other words, if the gospel according to Matthew says such and such verse is a fulfilled prophecy, then it is a fulfilled prophecy, regardless of the obvious context.

This is circular reasoning to the MAX!

Oh, and Dan. You just provided evidence that I am a true prophet. Thanks

Dan, if you keep parroting your programers, you are only letting others do your thinking for you. Good luck with that.

Jim Arvo said...

Dan said "Look at the fruit, is it good? How many false converts and atheists come from catholicism?"

I think you are suggesting here that Catholicism creates proportionately more atheists than your particular sect (which is what?). I know of no such statistics, but let's assume for the moment that you are correct. You ask whether that "fruit" is good. Well, that's a set up. Yes, I would say it's ultimately a good thing when people walk away from religious dogma, although it can be traumatic in the short term, as many here will attest. You see the problem here, don't you? You call upon a subjective assessment as to what is "good". Surely you recognize that there will be differing opinions here as well. Right?

stronger now said...

Dan,

Those sites do not answer my question. It is still relying on what the lying writers wrote.

The Inspiration and Inerrancy site is simply the opinion of more people that base their faith on those lying wicked writers. The question still remains.

The Evidential apologetics site is simply the opinion of more people that base their faith on those lying wicked writers. The question still remains.

I didn't ask anyone else, I asked you.

So, If you would please answer the question.

Why do you, Dan, believe those wicked lying writers?

Your answer cannot be the opinion of men, as those websites were.(must I remind you of why?)

One even said " If the critics want to deny the resurrection, than let them offer a better explanation for the motivation and actions of the disciples throughout the New Testament history. If they cannot, then the resurrection of Christ is the best explanation."

This assumes that the wicked liars were telling the truth about the resurrection and the actions of the disciples. Why assume this?

The other site clearly says "Therefore, when we say that the Bible is inspired, we are saying that it is authored from God..."

....we say.....we are saying....


The question remains.

rickyusvi said...

“Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.” —SNL

DaMn arvin wrote: “And if you continue saying it was all made up and faked so they could just write a best seller book I will submit this The Disciples stole Jesus' body and faked His resurrection

Danny, Danny, Danny, you still don’t get it. Apologetics are defenses of the faith. They are intended for people who already believe. They are utterly meaningless to nonbelievers. (And that goes for your traveling freak show with Passerby, Trumpeter, and Alanh. Something to consider as you ponder your impending answer to Stronger Now’s question.)

Case in point: you’re talking about little side issues such as could the Resurrection been faked. We stand by our belief, based on uniform experience of the way the universe operates, that once people die, they stay dead. Any naturalistic explanation for the story, no matter how improbable, is far more likely than that a dead man didn’t stay dead. One possible explanation is that the whole freaking story—apostles and all—was made up out of whole cloth. While i’m not insisting that that is what happened, it is infinitely more likely than that a dead man didn’t stay dead. CARM’s apologetic is no more than an irrelevant side show.

Dan Marvin said...

"apologetics is no more than an irrelevant side show."

Yea just like the Bible is irrelevant because YOU say it is.

I must say we are at a presupposition point again. My presupposition is there is a Creator and he spoke to us in His word. Your presupposition is that there is NO god because absence of proof (acceptable to you), which is not proof of absence.

There is a plethora of evidence, just none that is acceptable to you because of your presupposition. The Bible itself is historic evidence of God. May God have mercy on your souls.

alanh said...

Dan, you are not understanding the Bible correctly, you need to study 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6 & 2 Tim. 2:2. Also, if I wanted to read text from carm.org I would go there. If you can't make your points in your own words then I have to assume that you don't have a very good grasp of the subject matter.

Dan Marvin said...

More entertainment for you

Denial of the inerrancy of the original manuscripts of the Bible

stronger now said...

Dan,

You are the one that made statements that made the bible irrelevant when taken to a logical conclusion.

You said that we are not to believe the opinions of men for their hearts are lying and wicked.

This included the men that wrote the bible. Thus rendering it irrelevant as evidence for any of your other claims.

Your statements made the bible irrelevant. Not our presuppositions.

I asked you why you believe the wicked liars and still you cannot answer.

It has nothing to do with our presuppositions. It has to do with wheather or not you have thought your position through to it's logical conclusion. You obviously have not.

"The Bible itself is historic evidence of God."

Why? Because you said so? Because the men who wrote it said so?

We are not to take your word for it. Why do you take another man's word when you know you're not supposed to?

I have been down this road before with you.

So answer the question.

Dan Marvin said...

This included the men that wrote the bible.

Wrong! Your just being difficult.

Holy spirit inspired is quite different then some 40 dudes over 1600 years trying to "fool' the world as you claim. Your logic is questionable.

stronger now said...

Wrong? I am going by what YOU said.

You claimed that all men have hearts that are wicked and lying.

You claimed to believe those wicked liars.


And you think that it is "Holy spirit inspired"...because those wicked lying writers said so?

I am trying to get you to answer a question, YOU are being difficult.

And you still havn't answered the question.

Dan Marvin said...

Look for the last time I countered your point long ago but you will not accept it, I can't help that we can not go any further

Remember this:

stronger now: "And why is it that we should believe what them wicked liars wrote?"

The Bible was written by about 40 men in about 1600 years dating from 1500 B.C. to about 100 A.D. These men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 1:21). They wrote not in words of human wisdom but in words taught by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13).

Personally I would say that it was written by God and penned by man.

stronger now said...

That doesn't answer my question, it just brings my question into relevance again.

How do you "know" that the bible writers were inspired? Because they wrote that they were?

And you believe this because...because...because they wouldn't lie about a thing like that? Even though all men have wicked lying hearts?

As far as what you would say, You have already stated that we are not to take your word for it because your heart is just as wicked.

You are NOT answereing, you're just repeating the problem.

Dan te' said...

Dan, care to define the term God, so we know what you are actually talking about.

I don't need a lot of evidence; I just need to establish a connection between your words and something external to me. If you point to a book, then I'll ask why you think God is a book.

rickyusvi said...

I wrote: “apologetic[s] is no more than an irrelevant side show.”

Dan Marvin responded: “Yea just like the Bible is irrelevant because YOU say it is.”

Yea, just like dead people stay dead because I say they do.

Dan wrote: “I must say we are at a presupposition point again. My presupposition is there is a Creator and he spoke to us in His word. Your presupposition is that there is NO god because absence of proof (acceptable to you), which is not proof of absence.”

First, substitute “evidence” for the red herring “proof,” if those words are to go into my mouth. With that out of the way, Dan, are you familiar with Russell’s teapot?

Dan wrote: “There is a plethora of evidence, just none that is acceptable to you because of your presupposition. The Bible itself is historic evidence of God. May God have mercy on your souls.” [links added]

The Bible says that dead people came back to life. There’s a credibility problem here, to say the least.

The Bible also says that whatever you ask in Jesus’s name, he will do it (John 14:13-14). Note that there are no conditions. So when you ask Jesus to save your left ankle from the freight train, whose presupposition do you think is truer: yours or mine?

Dan Marvin said...

The Bible also says that whatever you ask in Jesus’s name, he will do it

“if you pray for patience, God will not give you patience, but opportunities to be patient.”

What would be a good prayer? Depending on the subject, it would be a request to the Lord to forgive, to heal, to reveal, to intercede, to help, etc. But, and this is important, we must realize that it is not our will that is to be done, but God's. We must primarily ask for God's will to be accomplished, not ours. This means that we must enter prayer by faith and accept, in advance, that what we are requesting may not be answered the way we hope it will. We must look to God as the wise counselor, the all-knowing Lord who loves us deeply and who hears our prayers, but has a divine plan and purpose for His creation that God will carry out. Therefore, we must not only pray for others, for forgiveness, for healing, etc., we must also pray that we are moved into the will of God in every area of our lives so that our prayers might more accurately reflect the will of God.

Furthermore, we must ask the Lord to reveal to us anything that we are doing that prevents our prayers from being heard and prevents us from being in His will. We must seek forgiveness for our sins and conformity to God's purpose and plan. Then, our prayers will be more frequently answered.

Are your prayers answered? If not, perhaps you might want to evaluate whether or not you are in the will of God? Perhaps you might want to pray specifically to be in the will of God in your life, your desires, your location, your job, your service, etc. Ask God to speak to you and to guide you into His will.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan,

Pray to your god to remove this site from the Internet. See what happens.

stronger now said...

Dan:"We must not trust our own lying wickedness..."

and:

"...my heart is just as wicked as anyone else's."

And are we to trust you when you say that the men you didn't know, and never met, didn't have those lying wicked hearts that everyone else seems to have, including youself?

And MY logic is faulty?

Please!

Remember this:"If you trust those lying wicked writers enough to base your refutiation of reason on what they wrote you'll have to explain why you do so in order for anyone else to take what they wrote as credible. They were, after all, lying and wicked."

Still you cannot seem to give a well reasoned answer.

It is not me you should be frustrated with. I didn't make these illogical assertions.

YOU DID!

rickyusvi said...

That’s an awful lot of conditions for a simple promise that had no conditions. One would think that the Almighty wouldn’t need a fallen being like you to make excuses for Him.

“Dear God,

“Please do whatever the fuck You’re gonna do, since You’re gonna do it anyway.”

stronger now said...

rickyusvi,

I'm LMHAO with your posts. Well done!

rickyusvi said...

Dan Marvin wrote: “Are your prayers answered? If not, perhaps you might want to evaluate whether or not you are in the will of God? Perhaps you might want to pray specifically to be in the will of God in your life, your desires, your location, your job, your service, etc. Ask God to speak to you and to guide you into His will.”

Oh, i did that for years. Many, many years. Dead silence the whole time. Dead silence. If you’re going to tell me that i need to pray for more patience, then you tell your god that my “God-given” life expectancy is only 80 years or so, and i’m no longer willing to wait till i no longer exist to find out what this imaginary Megalomaniac wants of me. While you’re chatting, you might also ask Him why he didn’t make my temporal lobes receptive to His will like he made yours. In the mean time, what the fuck am i supposed to do while i’m patiently waiting for instructions on what to do? I only wonder why it took me so damn long to wise up.

BTW, you’re only the umpteen zillionth person to suggest to me that i seek God’s will. If i seem a little cranky, it’s because i’m fucking tired of being patronized by people who don’t know me. Maybe i need to just ignore all the Christians infesting this blog.

.:webmaster:. said...

"Maybe i need to just ignore all the Christians infesting this blog."

But not all of them are "True Christians™." It's only the fake Christians you have to ignore.

Right, Dan?

Passerby said...

Dan,

I'd like to make one thing very clear, an entire Christian denomination cannot be renounced because of Jesus' words indicating that you will know "them" by their fruits. Just because some Catholic priests have fallen under grave sin, does permit such a conclusion.

When Jesus spoke on this issue, He stated explicitely that we should "beware of false prophets", not false "Churches".

There are people in all Christian denominations that are true Christians and others, not. Regardless of Baptist, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, etc... you will know when people, individuals, are God's people by their fruits.

I believe that God's Church on earth does span many Christian denominations although I do wonder about the state of those Christian sects that deny His divinity. By God's grace we know that these people are not accepting a very important component of the Truth. At the end of the day, only God knows man's heart.

As you can see from Matthew 7:15 and Luke 3:8, Jesus refers to individuals and their fruits, not entire Churches. He does not address such a topic as He knows there is only one body of Christ, only one true Church. As sinners, it may be safe to say that we all have an imperfect relation to His Church but those that are born of His spirit and remain in a state of grace, most certainly do belong and are, in His Church.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.

Luke 3:8
8 Produce good fruits as evidence of your repentance; and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

I must add Dan that I hope and pray that the Spirit guides us and protects us from error when discussing our Lord. Your last post on "What would be a good prayer?" is completely consistent with how I see and understand the way in which our Lord wishes us all to pray.

I wish not to elevate you with my words, for fear of your succumbing to pride, but I do wish to share with you how your words ring true for me.

Blessings.

.:webmaster:. said...

Passerby, who has set himself (herself?) up as the teacher of Dan Marvin doesn't Dan Marvin to succumb to pride.

Now that's funny.

Listen to Passerby, Dan. He (she?) obviously has a greater measure of "the truth" than you have. Or perhaps it's YOU who have the bigger measure of "truth?"

And of course, neither of you could possibly be wrong, because you both have Bible verses to support your positions.

This is terrible! How can we ever decide which of these Christians has the best representation of "the truth?"

Oh Holy Ghost, open our eyes to know the one "truth!" We were told Dan had it, and now Passerby says He (she?) has it instead.

Dan and Passerby. Both of you. Please! Pray that this website will disappear from the Internet right now! You both have the correct formula for effectual prayer, so please agree together and shut down this site!

Waiting...

stronger now said...

Hey! Is Dan gone from this site yet? Did he r-u-n-n-o-f-t or are his inane ramblings being deleted?

I notice that he still didn't answer my question.

Dan, if you can read this, understand that the reason you could't answer may be because it would go against your brainwashing. Either that ,or your incapable of rational thought from some as yet undetermined brain malfunction.

Your non-answer is quite telling though. Perhaps I have made you look at how gullible a person you are and that may lead, someday, to your rejection of christianity.

I doubt it, but things like that have happened before. That's what this site is for. After you become an exchristian you will be welcomed back, I hope. You will have much to learn. I will be more than happy to teach you all I know of the circular reasoning that you have been useing here. It is a logical fallacy, one easily detected when one steps outside the circle.

Untill then, you'll just be wrong.

alanh said...

Passerby wrote:

There are people in all Christian denominations that are true Christians and others, not. Regardless of Baptist, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, etc... you will know when people, individuals, are God's people by their fruits.

Sorry passerby, you are wrong. Protestantism is heretical:

"The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself.

A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church "against" the Bible, denying that the magisterium has any infallible authority to teach and interpret Scripture."

(catholic.com)

Dan Marvin said...

A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church "against" the Bible

When Jesus spoke on this issue, He stated explicitly that we should "beware of false prophets", not false "Churches".

I agree passerby but also have you both ever read Revelation 2? It talks about the different assemblies and there shortcomings in following Christ.

In 2 John the 7th verse it is clear "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Pray that this website will disappear from the Internet right now!

You are not getting it yet webmaster. God loves us so much he wants us to come to him by our choice. To take away your improperly named blog would be affecting free will. He preserves free will and works in the boundaries of it. Someone once said "Oh yea well in the old testament God allows slavery" and I replied that it was man that allowed slavery but if it were to be so by man's choice then follow these rules to be kind to them and then God listed the boundaries that he would tolerate. God is so kind and gentle and loving he never wants us to perish he wants us to love Him as He loves us. I wish you all understood fully how much He actually loves you.

Passerby: "I must add Dan that I hope and pray that the Spirit guides us and protects us from error when discussing our Lord. Your last post on "What would be a good prayer?" is completely consistent with how I see and understand the way in which our Lord wishes us all to pray.

I wish not to elevate you with my words, for fear of your succumbing to pride, but I do wish to share with you how your words ring true for me."


Actually it was not my words but that of Christian Apologetics at carm.org I even quote Moshe from carm.org on my blog. The true credit goes to Moshe and that website. I usually add a (carm.org) at the end of a quote but looking back I see I omitted it for that quote.

If anyone was wondering this quote “if you pray for patience, God will not give you patience, but opportunities to be patient.” came from Even Almighty the movie.

Stronger now,

I am not ignoring you I already answered that question of yours. To further explain let me say this, mankind have wicked hearts, yes, we are after all in a fallen creation because of that day when Adam did not follow God's instructions. Before that there was no disease or death even. The Holy Spirit cannot and does not lie or deceive like mankind. God had to breath His words into man and used men as tools to do His work. God's word was preserved, yes there are some typo errors in today's Bible but those are mere copywriter errors.

boomSLANG said...

Webmaster: "Dan and Passerby. Both of you. Please! Pray that this website will disappear from the Internet right now! You both have the correct formula for effectual prayer, so please agree together and shut down this site!"

Perpetually obstinate Christian responds:

You are not getting it yet webmaster. God loves us so much he wants us to come to him by our choice. To take away your improperly named blog would be affecting free will.

Aahh, yes!!!....once more, "God" is defined/"affirmed" by what "God" won't do. How convenient!

- Lucky the Leprechaun wants you to choose Lucky Charms over ALL other breakfast cereals. However, He WON'T stop you from eating Post Toasties, if that's what you really want to do!

Do you see, now, how Lucky's existence is obvious?

- Neptune wants you to choose eating canned mackeral over canned tuna, because of all of the innocent dolphins the netting of tuna kills. However, He WON'T stop you from eating canned tuna, if that's what you really want to do!

Do you see, now, how Neptune's existence is obvious?

= )

stronger now said...

Dan,

I cannot stress this enough, You DID NOT answer my question.


You can insist that you did answer untill the cows come home to roost, but you didn't answer the question. I don't know how to make it more understandable.

You seem unable to grasp such a simple thing.

You "answer" was not well reasoned.

It's like you said you believe the wicked lying writers because they said they didn't lie.

"The Holy Spirit cannot and does not lie or deceive like mankind."

And you "know" this because...the men with the wicked lying hearts said so. So you believe everything that those men wrote simply because they wrote that the were writing stuff for god. And you believe that because....because they said they were.

----------------------------------

THIS MESSAGE IS FROM THE ONE TRUE GOD. I HAVE USED STRONGER NOW TO DELIVER THIS MESSAGE. ANYTHING IN THIS MESSAGE IS INERRANT, HOLY, AND TRUE. IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE THAT THIS MESSAGE IS FROM THE ONE TRUE GOD, YOU WILL BE FORCED TO HAVE SEX WITH A HORNETS NEST FOR ETERNITY AFTER YOU DIE. IF YOU DO BELIEVE, THEN YOU WILL HAVE NO SEX AT ALL FOR ALL ETERNITY AFTER YOU DIE, AND YOU WILL BECOME MY SLAVE. DOESN'T THAT SOUND NICE. NOW, THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY LYING WICKED MEN WHO KNEW NOTHING OF ME, THE ONE TRUE GOD. THEY ARE BEING STUNG.

BEWARE OF THE TALKING JACKASS. HE IS THE RULER OF THE HORNETS. HE LEADS MANY ASTRAY.

BELIEVE THAT I AM WHO I SAY I AM BECAUSE I HAVE MADE STRONGER NOW IMPERVIOUS TO LYING ABOUT THIS.

-----------------------------------

Wow! check it out Dan! A message from GOD! What do you know, there is a god. But he doesn't seem to think too highly of the bible.

Better convert, you wouldn't want to get stung on the penis for all eternity.

What's that?

You say you don't believe?

Why not? Oh. It wasn't written by enough people. As if THAT would make it true.

And it wasn't written over a long period of time. As if THAT would make it true.

It says it's from god. Not from me. THAT makes it true.

Right.

SEO said...

On praying to shut down this site, DM said: To take away your improperly named blog would be affecting free will.

Really, any prayer that requests something is either fucking with god’s plan or fucking with someone else free will.

-If it’s god’s plan to let your mother die of cancer…what good is praying to god about it?

-If asking god to stop your husband from beating on you interferes with your husband’s free willing to choose to smack you around…why pray at t’all?

So. How. Does. Any. Prayer. Work?

alanh said...

Some excerpts from Dan's website carm.org:

"The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children"

"God's word clearly tells us that the elder is to be the husband of one wife. A woman cannot qualify for this position by virtue of her being female."

Should Women Be Pastors and Elders?

"Quite simply, the Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin"

"Unlike other sins, this sexual sin has a judgment administered by God Himself"

Christianity and Homosexuality

"given that the gospel accounts were written by individuals who knew Jesus personally (or were under the guidance of those who knew Him), that the gospels are historically accurate, superbly transmitted to us through the copying method, we can then assume at the very least, that Jesus was an actual historical person. But, we have no hard evidence to establish the validity of Santa Claus."

Why do you believe in Jesus but not Santa Claus?

"murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. Therefore, in the issue of taking life we must determine whether or not is lawful or not."

"God never murders because before God, all people are guilty before the holy law that he is given."

The Bible says not to kill yet many Christians support the death penalty

Dan Marvin said...

Amen alanh!

What you don't agree? Does it sound Chinese to you? I agree 100% with those comments from carm.org, don't you?

Anonymous said...

Dan, from his blog

"Just because mankind doesn't accept circular arguments doesn't mean a thing it's still the truth. God is who he is because he says he is who he is. Like it or not."

stronger now said...

Shit, Dan! And you called my logic "faulty"? WTF!!!

stronger now said...

From a site explaining why circular arguments are a logical fallacy:

'...the conclusion of a circular argument can be seen as just a restatement of its only premise. It's like saying, "A is B, therefore A is B." '

See, I told you you didn't answer my question.

Jesus said...

O Jerusalem! {That is: O generation!} turn your eyes to the east and to the west; turn your eyes to the north and to the south and I Am there! I tell you truly that once more My Spirit will be poured on you and My Image will be spread across the face of the world; what I have planned shall happen and what I have told you shall be fulfilled; come close to Me and listen carefully: today I come all the way to your doorstep holding the banner of Peace; I am coming to save you Jerusalem, on it is written: Faithful and True, {Ap. 19:11} the King of kings and the Lord of lords; {Ap. 19:16} will I hear from you Jerusalem: "My King, it is You that I have to worship", or will you still be unaware of He who offers you His Peace .... now? will you in these last days before the Day of Retribution recognize My Holy Spirit who descended from above in all His Glory to make house with you? during your whole lifetime, generation, you flouted My Law and turned away, rebelling; are you ever going to be prepared to meet Me, your God? I am soon going to pass through your City!{That is, through us. We are cities.} and it will be sooner than you think! these will be My last warnings; I solemnly tell you:

wake up from your deep sleep!
you are heading for your ruin,
shake off the dust that covers you
and rise from the dead,
The End of Times{The End of Times is NOT the End of the world, it is the end of an epoch.}
is nearer than you think;

1) soon, very soon, I shall suddenly open My Sanctuary in Heaven and there, your eyes unveiled, you will perceive, like a secret revelation: myriads of Angels, Thrones, Dominations, Sovereignties, Powers, all prostrated around

The Ark of the Covenant;

then, a Breath will slide over your face, and the Powers of Heaven will shake, flashes of lightning will be followed by peals of thunder; "suddenly upon you will come a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came to existence;" {Dn. 12:1} for I will allow your soul to perceive all the events of your lifetime; I will unfold them one after the other; to the great dismay of your soul, you will realize how much innocent blood your sins shed, from victim souls;

I will then make your soul aware to see how you had never been following My Law; like an unrolled scroll, I will open The Ark of The Covenant and make you conscious of your lawlessness;

2) if you would still be alive and standing on your feet, the eyes of your soul will behold a dazzling Light, like the glitter of many precious stones; like the sparks of crystal-clear diamonds, a Light so pure and so bright that although myriads of angels would be standing nearby, in Silence, you will not see them completely, because this Light will be covering them like a silverish golden dust, your soul will only perceive their form, not their face; then, in the midst of this dazzling Light, your soul will see what they had once seen in that fraction of a second, that very moment of your creation ....

they will see:
He who held you first in His Hands;
The Eyes that saw you first;

they will see:
The Hands of He who shaped you
and blessed you ....

they will see:
The Most Tender Father, your Creator
all clothed in fearful splendour,
the First and the Last,
He who is, who was, and
is to come,
The Almighty,
The Alpha and the Omega:
The Ruler;

shrivelled with your awakening, your eyes will be transfixed in Mine which will be like two Flames of Fire{Ap. 19:12} your heart then will look back on its sins and will be seized with remorse; you will, in great distress and agony suffer your lawlessness, realizing how you were constantly profaning My Holy Name and how you were rejecting Me, your Father .... panic-stricken, you will tremble and shudder when you will see yourself as a decaying corpse, devastated by worm and by vulture;

3) and if your legs will still be holding you up, I will show you what your soul, My Temple and My Dwelling was nursing all the years of your life; instead of My Perpetual Sacrifice you will see to your dismay, that you were fondling The Viper and that you had erected this Disastrous Abomination of which the prophet Daniel spoke, in the most profound domain of your soul;

The Blasphemy;

The Blasphemy, that cut off all your heavenly bonds linking you to Me and making a gulf between you and Me, your God;

- when this Day comes, the scales of your eyes will fall, so that you may perceive how naked you are and how within you, you are a land of drought .... unhappy creature, your rebellion and your denial of The Most Holy Trinity turned you into a renegade and persecutor of My Word;

- your laments and your wailing will be heard only by you then; I tell you: you will mourn and you will weep, but your laments will only be heard by your own ears;

- I can only judge as I am told to judge and My judging will be just; as it was in Noah's time, so will it be when I will open the Heavens and show you The Ark of the Covenant; "for in those days before the Flood, people were eating, drinking, taking wives, taking husbands, right up to the day Noah went into the ark, and they suspected nothing till the Flood came and swept all away"; {Mt. 24: 38-39} this is how it will be in this Day too; and I tell you, if that time had not been shortened by the intercession of your Holy Mother, the martyr saints and the pool of blood shed on earth, from Abel the Holy to the blood of all My prophets, not one of you would have survived!

I, your God, am sending angel after angel to announce that My Time of Mercy is running short and that the Time of My Rein on earth is close at hand; I am sending My angels to witness of My Love "to all who live on earth, every nation, race, language and tribe"; {Ap. 14:6} I am sending them out as apostles of the last days to announce that: "the Kingdom of the world would become like My Kingdom of above and that My Spirit will reign for ever and ever" {Ap. 11:15} in your midst; I am sending My servants the prophets to cry out in this wilderness that you should:

"Fear Me and praise Me
because the Time has come
for Me to sit in judgement!"{Ap. 14:7}

My Kingdom will come suddenly upon you, this is why you must have constancy and faith till the end; -

- My child, pray for the sinner who is
unaware of his decay;
pray and ask the Father to forgive
the crimes the world ceaselessly commits;
pray for the conversion of souls,
pray for Peace

Can't spell Christ without Shit said...

Jesus said - O Jerusalem! {That is: O generation!} turn your eyes to the east and to the west; BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!

It seems that Dan Marvin is now calling himself Jesus.

Next thing you know it Dan Marvin will claim that he is the christ and he has returned.

Dan Marvin's gay lover said...

Hey Dan, I promise that I will not tell anyone on here about us.

I would hate to let these people know that you are a closet homosexual.

Oops....it seems that I screwed up and hit the post button.

Sorry Dan, your secret is now out.

Can't spell Christ without Shit said...

Hey Dan,

When are you going to get your fat gluttony ass out of your bedroom, and stop making signs on poster board that have bible scripture on them, and posting them on "YouTube"?

Since you enjoy firing missles into our back yard, I will be sure to come over into your back yard on "You Tube" and fire some missles of my own.

Can't spell Christ without Shit said...

Anyone ever seen what this guy, "Dan Marvin" looks like, Goddamn, he is an ugly son of a bitch.

Check out the evil and serious look that in this man's face in his latest bible beating video, he looks like a serial killer.

BTW, Dan I am not reading anymore of your boring bible beating bullshit. I am just going to flame you instead.

Remember, this is our site, and you started the war by not minding your own business.

Jesus said...

Dan please shutup, you are making me look like a complete fool.

Kush said...

Hey Dan!

You better obey me, the "Real and true God" named "Kush"!

If you don't I will piss in your Kool Aid and turn it into blood.

Plus you are responsible for O.J. Simpson's sins. Remember that Dan!

Your Savior,

Kush

Passerby said...

Dan Marvin had no involvment in the post designated as from, Jesus.

These words are Truth and they are from our Lord. Their source need not be believed for your salvation but the content of these words should not be ignored. They are completely consistent with the Bible.

As always everyone...you can heed His advice and "wake up from your deep sleep!" or exercise your free will and choose Blasphemy.

Please don't let His words haunt you into eternity. He loves you beyond comprehension and truly is a good and gentle Father, he seeks your will, not your ruin.

Can't spell Christ without Shit said...

THE BIBLE SAID
THE BIBLE SAID
THE BIBLE SAID

It doesn't matter what the bible says. Quoting scripture is not going to change anyone's mind on here so when are people like you and Dan Marvin going to figure that out? Goddamn, are you people that stupid?

Why don't you shut the fuck up Passerby?

Get a fucking job and a life, and stay out of everyone else's business.

Your Bible God is dead and the bible is a false book. You will not stop the progress of science in this world.

So deal with it. You are losing the war against secularism, and it just kills people like you and Dan Marvin.

Another day has passed, and your Jesus has failed to return as usual.

I'm sure that after another 100 years pass there will still be idiots like you around quoting scripture about a dying religion that is out of date.

Once again, get a job.

BTW, God still has not shut down this site. HA! HA! HA!

AtheistToothFairy said...

Dan Marvin said:

WEBMASTER: Pray that this website will disappear from the Internet right now!

DAN: "You are not getting it yet webmaster. God loves us so much he wants us to come to him by our choice. To take away your improperly named blog would be affecting free will"

----
Dan,

You xtians must keep a big box under your beds, filled with lame excuses to use for every situation.
This 'free will' excuse comes in very handy many a time I bet!!

ANY excuse will do, to avoid having to prove your god exists, right Dan?



ATF

Feminist and damn proud of it!!!!! said...

Hey Passerby, are you Dan Marvin's gay lover?

Sorry that people like you and Dan can't get a woman.

Just like Paul couldn't get a woman, and that's why he hated women so much.

The days of men like Dan Marvin pushing women around are over.

The feminist movement is here to stay.

Christians are pussys said...

Ya know, I would kick Dan Marvin's ass if he was standing right in front of me.

I would challenge his Jesus to come down and save him while I kick the living shit out of him.

The Real and True God said...

No, No, No, don't believe any of this crap that man wrote claiming that it was inspired by me!

People like Dan Marvin and Passerby are deceiving you people.

You humans have intellectual thinking, you don't need some book written by me to tell you how to live your lives.

Dan Marvin and Passerby are nothing more than "Cult Members".

They are dangerous and they will poison your mind if you listen to them.

God said...

Let me make this clear, I did not write the bible.

It was written by a bunch of men who thought they had me figured out when it was actually their very own superstition and their beliefs about who I am, and what I am supposed to be.

Please do not ruin your lives by listening to a faulty book called the "Bible". It is not the true word of God.

Anonymous said...

Hey Passerby and Dan Marvin.

I see that you two both survived Waco.

stronger now said...

Passerby:"Dan Marvin had no involvment in the post designated as from, Jesus.

These words are Truth and they are from our Lord. Their source need not be believed...."


So, Your saying that we don't have to believe that the source for these words was jesus, as you claim.

Sounds stupid.

And you "know" these words were from jesus, how? Oh yeah! It's in the bible. And the men who wrote the bible were perfect in what they wrote because they wrote that they were inspired by god and that MAKES it true. Right?

Same thing for dan goes for you pal.

Why do YOU believe them wicked lying writers?

Passerby said...

It appears to me that the spirits that own your heart have made some of you quite frantic. There's a reason for that, they know when God is speaking.

Those words were from your Savior, who has "come all the way to your doorstep holding the banner of Peace". Peace! Not hatred, but Love!

Please do not threaten His children with violence, instead, heed His words and return to your family. We were all made by God and He wants all of us in Heaven someday.

.:webmaster:. said...

The spirits that own my heart?

Uhm, huh? Really?

That's very Charismatic sounding of you, but not very Biblical. I mean, if spirits own someone's heart, what about the freewill?

I can't wait to read what Dan Marvin will think about your latest posts, Passerby. I mean, you are even speaking for Jesus now? WOW!

alanh said...

Dan

Your website makes Catholicism look like rocket science.

stronger now said...

Passerby,

You didn't answer my question.

Just like Dan.=)

Dan Marvin said...

Passerby: "He loves you beyond comprehension and truly is a good and gentle Father, he seeks your will, not your ruin."

This is true but don't give pearls to the swine my friend. These people here need the Law preached and NOT the gospel...yet. They are literally spitting on your God. Their proud heart will not understand their wickedness yet. Do you want to see how Jesus preached to the proud? Just look at Luke 18:18-23.

You and I are not the only things God loves. He loves righteousness. He loves holiness, and He loves justice! (mikesmalley.com)

"Rom. 9:11-13 We see that God loved Jacob and hated Esau not because of anything that they did, but because of "God's purpose according to His choice,". Is this fair for God to do? Yes it is.

First of all, whatever God does is fair. God can do no wrong, so if He loves one and hates another, it is fair. Second, God owes us nothing. He is not obligated to love anyone. He loves out of the freedom of His will and plan, not because of anything in us. He loves because of what is in Him. Third, all people are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). This means that because we are all fallen and because we are all sinners, the "fair" thing to do is to let us all go to hell. Fairness deals with what is right. Since it is only God who is holy and pure and right, and not us, it is perfectly fair that all of us sinners be judged and condemned by God. But, God does not choose to do that. Instead, He sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins so that we might be saved (John 3:16; 1 Peter 2:24).

So, yes it is fair that God loves one and hates another. It is not fair, however, that God would send His Son to die for us so that we might be saved. That wasn't fair. That was sacrificial love."(carm)

Passerby: "Those words were from your Savior, who has "come all the way to your doorstep holding the banner of Peace". Peace! Not hatred, but Love!"

Not peace, but justice!

I ask you, are you a sinner? Have you ever lied, stolen, lusted, coveted, or been angry with someone unjustly? If so, then you have broken the Law of God. God has said "You shall not steal; You shall not lie; You shall have no other gods before Me; You shall not murder, etc.," (Exodus 20). He has given the standard of righteousness and if you have broken any of God's commandments then you have fallen short of that standard and are under the inevitable judgment of God. When you die, you will face Him and on the Day of Judgment He will punish all sinners.

If you do not like this teaching, then throw away your Bible and turn from Christ, for this is the message of God's word -- that Jesus came to die for sinners and to save them from the wrath to come.

Jesus is the One you need. He alone. Not your works (Rom. 3:10-12; Isaiah 64:6). Not your sincerity. Not your goodness. You have nothing to offer God except your sinfulness. It is only by the love and grace of God found in Jesus and His sacrifice that you can be delivered from the righteous wrath of God upon all who have broken His law. Jesus saves you from God.

Christians are pussys Ya know, I would kick Dan Marvin's ass if he was standing right in front of me."

Luke 6:29 "And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also."

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

alanh (sectator ) said "Your website makes Catholicism look like rocket science." If you mean Catholicism is destructively explosive, out of this world and hard to understand for anyone then Yes I agree! Why would anyone continue to tithe and attend a pedophile-enabling sect or cult like that is way beyond me. I am sure the crusades were umm, justified righteousness?(note: sarcasm) Forgive me if I laugh.

Stronger now "I cannot stress this enough, You DID NOT answer my question."

I guess the short answer, 'Jesus' is the reason I believe the Bible. All the shadowy prophecies that pointed to Him thousands of years before He was born. All the miracles and fulfilled prophecies made me a believer and follower of Christ. The fact that it is truly logical and poetically poignant even to this day. I welcomed His leadership in my life and conceded to His authority. I have tremendous joy and peace during persecution, tribulations and temptations in my life knowing He is there for me, that we are not alone.

"I... had an experience... I can't prove it, I can't even explain it, but everything that I know as a human being, everything that I am tells me that it was real! I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever... A vision of the universe, that tells us, undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are *not*, that none of us are alone! I wish... I... could share that... I wish, that everybody, if only for one... moment, could feel... that awe, and humility, and hope. But... That continues to be my wish." (Contact)

stronger now said...

Dan:"I guess the short answer, 'Jesus' is the reason I believe the Bible."

And the reason you "know" about jesus is the bible. Right. You see, Dan, you're still in the circle. Still giving a circular argument. Any information in the bible is still part of that circular argument.

"All the miracles and fulfilled prophecies made me a believer and follower of Christ."

Yes, all the miracles in the bible, all the "fulfilled prophecies" in the bible are PART OF THE BIBLE. When you use them as part of you answer, it makes your answer just another circle.

"The fact that it is truly logical and poetically poignant even to this day."

Sorry pal, but this is only YOUR opinion. An opinion that you said we shouldn't...well, you know.

"I have tremendous joy and peace during persecution, tribulations and temptations in my life knowing He is there for me..."

How do you "know" that he is there?
Is it because the bible tells you so, or is it your opinion?

As far as your admitted contentment, a child who believes his imaginary friend is real must not feel lonely either. In fact I bet a child with an imaginary friend feels joy for having it.

Again you have not answered my question. You have not given a well reasoned response. You suck at thinking.

And, is it your habit to quote modern day fiction to make ancient fiction more believable?

Odd.

Dan Marvin said...

Atheism is an intellectual position. What reasons do you have for holding that position? Your reasons are based upon logic, and/or evidence or lack of it. So, is there any reason/evidence for you holding your position that you defend?

If you say that atheism needs no evidence or reason, then you are holding a position that has no evidence or rational basis. If so, then isn't that simply faith?

If you say that atheism is supported by the lack of evidence for God, then it is only your opinion that there is no evidence. You cannot know all evidence for or against God; therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God.
If you say that atheism needs no evidence to support it because it is a position about the lack of something, then do you have other positions you hold based upon lack of evidence...like say, screaming blue ants? Do you hold the position that they do not exist or that you lack belief in them, too?

How do you account for the laws of logic in a universe without God?

The laws of logic are conceptual by nature and absolute. Being absolute, they transcend space and time. They are not the properties of the physical universe (since they are conceptual) or of people (since people contradict each other, which would mean they weren't absolute). So, how do you account for them?

Everything that was brought into existence was caused to exist. Can you have an infinite regression of causes? No, since to get to "now" you'd have to traverse an infinite past. It seems that there must be a single uncaused cause. Why can't that be God?

Something cannot be itself and not itself at the same time (Law of non-contradiction). A thing is what it is (Law of identity). A statement is either true or false (Law of excluded middle). These are simple, absolute logical absolutes.
If atheism is true: The universe has laws. These laws cannot be violated. Life is a product of these laws and can only exist in harmony with those laws and is governed by them. Therefore, human thought, feelings, etc., are programmed responses to stimuli and the atheist cannot legitimately claim to have meaning in life.

Dan Marvin said...

If the laws of logic are human constructs, then how can they be absolute since humans think differently and often contradictorily? If they are produced from human minds, and human minds are mutually contradictory, then how can the constructs be absolute? Therefore, the laws of logic are not human constructs.

"All of Science has never found any evidence for God"

That is a subjective statement. There are many scientists who affirm evidence for God's existence through science.

Your presupposition is that science has no evidence for God, but that is only an opinion.

Science looks at natural phenomena through measuring, weighing, seeing, etc. God, by definition, is not limited to the universe. Therefore, it would not be expected that physical detection of God would be found.

Of course these are all from my friend at Carm.org

Dan Marvin said...

"Prove your God is real."

I can no more prove to you that God is real than I can prove to you that I love my family. If you are convinced I don't love my family, no matter what I say or do will be dismissed by you as invalid. It is your presuppositions that are the problem, not whether or not God exists.

I can no more prove to you that God is real than you can prove that the universe is all that exists. Your demand of proof precludes acknowledgment of many types of evidence...because your presuppositions don't allow it.

The universe exists. It is not infinitely old. If it were, it would have run out of energy long ago. Therefore, it had a beginning. The universe did not bring itself into existence. Since it was brought into existence by something else, I assert that God is the one who created the universe.

Explain the existence of the universe. Remember opinions and guesses don't count.

Jim Arvo said...

Dan said "...don't give pearls to the swine [the regulars at this site] my friend. These people here need the Law preached and NOT the gospel...yet. They are literally spitting on your God."

Dan, that is extraordinarily rude. Are we under some obligation to believe exactly what you believe? I think not. Furthermore, nobody here is "spitting" on you god. I, for one, simply see not reason to suppose he/she/it exists. Spitting makes no sense. Why would I spit on something I don't think exists?

Now, it's true that in my opinion the god portrayed in the Bible is monstrous, but you are fully entitled to believe in him if you wish. Again, no spitting.

Dan also said "Your demand of proof precludes acknowledgment of many types of evidence...because your presuppositions don't allow it."

I don't know what evidence you think is compelling--I've never seen a shred of credible evidence for invisible beings of any description. That's not a result of my presuppositions, Dan. I'm fully capable of examining arguments I do not agree with.

Dan challenged "Explain the existence of the universe. Remember opinions and guesses don't count."

There are a number of theories about this, Dan. None are conclusive yet, although there are some fascinating clues provided by quantum mechanics (e.g. vacuum fluctuations), and that fact that the total energy of the universe appears to be very close to zero, if not exactly. However, none of that really matters. Even if there were no reasonable theories at all, how would that imply that there was a god?

I know I'm wasting my time... You've yet to respond to a single thing I've written.

Anonymous said...

WOW....I remember being like Dan the man once. I even went to Bible College and Seminary. I studied at the Institute for Creation Research, eventually got ordained as a minister from an Evangelical church and so on. It's good for Dan to have to articulate all of his thoughts. Eventually he might just break through the brainwashing and belief and become a real person. It took me many years to throw off the belief in god and the bible. Keep it up Dan, maybe you will be able to look past your ramblings and faulty logic.

To my fellow exChristians, It really is amazing how people like Dan irritate us now. I guess remembering how goofy we were doesnt feel very good. :)

Bill said...

Dan wrote....I can no more prove to you that God is real than I can prove to you that I love my family. If you are convinced I don't love my family, no matter what I say or do will be dismissed by you as invalid. It is your presuppositions that are the problem, not whether or not God exists.

Actually you can easily prove that you love your family. It just depends on how you define love. You are trying to invalidate us former born again Christians because you think we are angry at god and deluded by god or the enemy. You are what you believe Dan. If you believe these things than you can not really hear us. Your belief is first and foremost to you. Anything else is a threat from the enemy...right. You have to reinforce your beliefs by believing that we are wrong and God is on your side. You are commanded to love us and therefor you have no choice but to argue the "truth" in order to save us from god's eternal damnation of our souls. Anything less is a lack of faith on your part.

Oswald Chambers wrote that prayer is the work not the preparation to do work. I encourage you to fast and pray for our souls and stop writing so much stuff on our website.

Why don't you just trust god to speak to us and see your faith in action. I'm sure you've been told by many Christians that you can not argue someone into the Kingdom of god. Right? Lets see the power of your prayer and faith and not your writings on this site.

Thank you!

Dan Marvin said...

Bill: "Lets see the power of your prayer and faith and not your writings on this site."

Bill that was well said. I mean no harm to anyone and we are all probably slightly frustrated with the (each)other's logic.

I will take your advice and get back to homeschooling my four children. I have prayed for all of you, it is up to God at this point. I wish all of you strong and healthy lives. Take care and Thanks for the conversations they were entertaining and enlightening. It is a very serious subject to me and I appreciate all of your attention on these matters.

For Him,
Dan

**I will reserve the right to counter only on rare occasions, forgive me I like a good conversation. lol

Jim Arvo said...

Dan asked "If the laws of logic are human constructs, then how can they be absolute since humans think differently and often contradictorily?"

To suggest that logic, in general, is simply a "human construct" is absurd; every logic (and there are many of them) is motivated by observed patterns, either abstract or physical. The "logic" we are endowed with naturally was shaped by eons of interactions with the macroscopic physical world, and hence reflects the behavior of terrestrial matter (i.e. middle-scale matter). It's also overly simplistic to assert that "logic" is "absolute", as some intuitive rules break down at the quantum level (as one might expect from an evolutionary perspective).

Dan continues "...If they are produced from human minds, and human minds are mutually contradictory, then how can the constructs be absolute?"

This is muddled reasoning. Yes, humans often contradict one another, and even themselves. This does not imply that we humans cannot collectively construct something of value, such as various forms of mathematical logic. Moreover, you are simply asserting that something is absolute without clearly stating what that thing is, what it means to be absolute, or why you think it is.

Dan concludes with "Therefore, the laws of logic are not human constructs."

Right, they are not. At least not entirely. Some logics (e.g. modal, intuisionistic, and fuzzy logics) are definitely human constructs at some level, however. Again, this is miles from a demonstration that there is a god; it's not even a coherent argument.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan said, "The atheist cannot legitimately claim to have meaning in life."

Only the atheist? What about any non-Christian? Do Islamics have meaning in life?

Since the word meaning needs to be defined before it can be discussed, I suggest that what you intend is that non-Christians have no worthwhile reason to live. If that is what you intend, then I think the vast majority of life on this planet would disagree with you. From my own personal observations, living things generally find plenty of reasons to live.

If what you are trying to say is that Christianity provides a better reason to live, or more meaning, or something along those lines, then I suppose that would be something that could be discussed. But what you are stating -- that non-Christians have no meaningful reason to live -- is only your own opinion. You won't even find support for that in your collected myths and fables, written my religiously fanatical and primitive men. The musician cannot imagine life without music. The scientist cannot imagine life without research. The writer cannot imagine life without language. The religiously inclined cannot imagine life without religion. These are all personal value judgments, but far from being absolutes in valuating reasons to live.

We all assign meaning to our own lives in our own ways. You have chosen to find meaning for your life in your narrowly constrained religious dogmatism. That's your choice, but I find such a life horrifically meaningless.

Your reference to "Jacob I loved by Esau I hated," is a foundational support for Five Point Calvinism. Predestination doesn't seem to be in your vocabulary. Perhaps you might want to rethink using such verses when trying to hawk your free-will fundamentalism.

I don't believe in Big Foot. I don't believe in UFOs. I don't believe in invisible faeries, angels, demons, floating ax heads, talking plants, animals, and snakes... Why would I? Because they are written about in some book? Why would I? Why should I?

Your argument in support of an "uncaused cause" makes no sense. If there must be an uncaused cause, why must it be an extremely complex and incomprehensible deity who impregnates a teenager so that it can have a son who is really HIM that sacrifices itself to itself in order to appease its own wrath and avoid roasting forever its own creatures? Does that even make a lick of sense? Wouldn't it make more sense that the universe itself is uncaused? An uncaused universe seems incomprehensible, but an incomprehensible god is comprehensible?

Where is the evidence that your phantasmagoric explanation for the universe has any basis outside the fevered imaginations of twisted minds? Where is the justice and fairness of everlasting torture in retribution for temporal offenses? When did eternal torture become synonymous with justice for anything a human being could possible do?

We all have presuppositions, Dan. But to presume that the reality around us is only a light covering for an invisible world of horrific terror doled out by a mercilessly cruel Jewish tribal deity requires more than a little faith. It requires a cripplingly closed mind. Good luck with that.

Let's be civil Dan said...

From Dan Marvin:
"Why don't you just trust god to speak to us and see your faith in action. I'm sure you've been told by many Christians that you can not argue someone into the Kingdom of god. Right? Lets see the power of your prayer and faith and not your writings on this site."

Hi Dan,
Why can you not understand that there are people here on this site that will never agree with you? Why is that so hard for people like you to understand?

Doesn't the bible teach that you are supposed to only share your faith, and if those who you share your faith with don't accept it that you are supposed to leave them alone?

Dan, all I'm saying is why don't you just share your gospel message, and leave the rest up to God?

You are trying to play God's role, and all you are doing is provoking others.

Why stay and continue to quote scripture and debate, when you cannot win?

Why don't you simply leave?

It's like I heard my pastor say one time in my church, "It is only the christian's responsibility to share their faith and leave the rest up to God". You are to plant the seed, and trust God to water it, but instead you are trying to force the seed to grow, which is producing no results on here whatsoever. You cannot rebuke non-believers Dan. You are only supposed to rebuke a fellow believer in Christ. Not a non-believer.

Then again Dan, I have to wonder since you claimed on another post of your's that you were raised by parents who are atheists, I have to wonder based on your behavior on here if your motive for harassing non-believers is some hidden anger of yours that goes back to your parents being atheist. Did they abuse you Dan? And by becoming a christian you decided that would be your way of getting even with them?

So what better way to take out your past anger and pain from your atheist parents. Just become a christian, and use the bible as a weapon in an attempt to take out all of your past frustrations and hurts on atheists and non-believers.

Did your parents not give you enough attention when you was growing up Dan? Is that what this is all about? Your still angry about the way your atheist parents treated you when you were growing up or perhaps some atheist harmed or hurt you deeply, so you decided to become a christian and use the bible as a weapon against these people in order to degrade them. That is perhaps your way of getting even with the non-believers who hurt you.

I was once like you Dan. I went around quoting scripture after scripture just in order to make myself feel more superior to others, and to degrade people who were not christians or those who were living in sin, however deep down I was hurting inside about the way people had treated me. You remind me of the way I use to be. You are almost a duplicate of the way I use to be.

There are many christians who would not approve of your methods on here. It is not up to you to convert non-believers. You need to just share your heart about what Jesus did for you, and leave them alone. It's that simple Dan. God does not honor what you are doing on here.

You have done nothing but provoke others on here, and you have damaged your witness and credibility. You have won no souls for Christ.

You need to simply walk away Dan. You are getting no where on this site. You are trying to dig a hole in concrete with a spoon.

Stop using christianity as a means to take out your own pain and frustrations in life on others. I do not see the love of Jesus in what you are doing on here.

Instead all I see is a bitter spirit that you are displaying Dan.

Let's Be Civil Dan said...

Bill: "Lets see the power of your prayer and faith and not your writings on this site."

From Dan Marvin:
Bill that was well said. I mean no harm to anyone and we are all probably slightly frustrated with the (each)other's logic.

Dan, I had not read this post when I left you my last post, however I am glad to see that you realize the need to walk away.

I mean you no harm either, I just hate to see you constantly provoke others on here even though I know your intentions are more than likely good.

This is producing no fruit whatsoever, and you have done what God has asked you to do, so just simply walk away and get back to your family.

Take care Dan.

Dan Marvin said...

Let's be civil Dan "I have to wonder based on your behavior on here if your motive for harassing non-believers is some hidden anger of yours that goes back to your parents being atheist."

It's isn't anger, it's frustration. It's a longing to help save the lost not to get back at anyone.

"Did they abuse you Dan?" No never! I was spanked once in my life.

"Did your parents not give you enough attention when you was growing up Dan?" They gave me plenty of attention, although my mom did die very young (45) with complications of lupus. Life is short for all of us, I feel compelled to get the message out before it is too late like my mother.

Let's be civil Dan "I was once like you Dan." With all due respect, you were never like me because you were NEVER a Christian. You broke a covenant you made with God. God knew this and never welcomed you into his Kingdom. Again it still isn't too late.

"You need to simply walk away Dan." OK I will

"Stop using christianity as a means to take out your own pain and frustrations in life on others"

That is NOT what is going on at all, but I understand your pain with the truth. Remember burring your heads like ostriges will not save you on Judgment Day.

Take care, OUT!

Dan Marvin said...

OOPS: burying

.:webmaster:. said...

And "ostriches."

Homeschooling? It might be a better idea for you to get a job and stop playing at "religiously fanatical househusband."

Frustration?

Why be frustrated? You already know that most of humanity is going to fry forever in your god's eternal pit of love. Why bother with us? We know the gospel inside and out. We find it ridiculous. Why not evangelize Hindus or Islamics or Buddhists or Native Americans or Shintoists or any of the other plethora of non-Christians out there? Why frustrate yourself with apostates?

I might know why apostates so frustrate you. Because apostates aren't supposed to exist in your presuppositional worldview.

You might want to rethink your worldview rather than simply dismissing the existence of apostates.

Admit it, Dan. You're addicted to this site. You're powerless to stop reading and posting. Hilarious.

stronger now said...

Way to shift the burden of proof to avoid answering my question, Dan!


Are you conceding that you cannot come up with a well reasoned, logical answer?

Great! Your on your way to realizing how silly it is believe something when the evidence for it is faulty at best.

As it stands YOU came here making claims. Ones that YOU cannot defend logically. You came on this site, Dan. We/I didn't ask for your opinions. You started this. I was useing the percepts given by you to show the subjectivness of your belief in the bible to you.

In other words, if the existence of a deity is "proved" byond a shodow of a doubt, the biblegod is not "proved" by default.

And now your being lazy and asking me to do your thinking for you?

If you cannot come up with logical reason to believe the bible, why should you expect any thinking person to believe it?

As far as defending my atheism, I'll switch to agnosticism in a heartbeat if you can provide credible evidence for a god. But, you would still have to provide a good reason to believe that it is the god of the bible and not Odin, Zeus, Ra, and the thousands of other deities that mankind has ever worshipped, or even one that is as yet unknown to mankind.

Furthermore, if the reasons for your non-belief in these other deities are because there is no credible evidence for them and/or they don't have a logical basis for believing in them, then you should understand why why I don't believe in your god.

You are an atheist as far as these other deities are concerned. So, keep that in mind when you ask me/us to defend our atheism.

Why have you kept the credible evidence for a deity away from us? I have yet to see any from you or anyone else. Ever! That may not mean that there isn't any, just that no-one has ever been able to produce it. As with any other magical, mystical claim, if there is no good reason to believe it, then why believe it? As I said, "I'll swich to agnosticism in a heartbeat if you can provide credible evidence for a god.".

If I said purple pigs were flying in the center of uranus, and provided no good evidence, would you believe it?

I think jim arvo is better that me at answereing the "logic proves the existence of god" argument. I'd say the same things but would take longer to say it clearly.

Explain the logic behind the idea that the universe must have had a cause, but a god didn't. If god didn't have a cause for its existance then why does the universe have to have one? Seems like Occam's razor would apply here.

"God, by definition, is not limited to the universe."

How do you know? If god exists and the universe is all that does exist then this god must be a part of it.

"Of course these are all from my friend at Carm.org"

Must be nice not having to think about an issue after making assumptions about it. You should get an award for laziest decisionmaker.

"I can no more prove to you that God is real than I can prove to you that I love my family."

Actually, you can prove that you love your family. You could get an MRI brainscan to see if the emotion center of the brain associated with love is triggered when stimulated by thoughts of your family. I believe you can even have your brain chemistry checked when this happens to see if the chemical response matches known criteria for the emotional state of love.

But it really doesn't matter to me if you love your family or not. You have not come on this site with warnings of dire cosequences if we don't believe you love your family. Have you?

"The universe exists. It is not infinitely old. If it were, it would have run out of energy long ago. Therefore, it had a beginning...."

O.k. I can agree with that.(for the sake of this argument)

"The universe did not bring itself into existence."

Whoa! Wait a sec! You don't know that! You're assuming it! It's your opinion.

As far as explaining the universes existence...

...A GIANT TURTLE MADE IT!

O.K. I don't believe that either. But I have been given no reason to believe that it was created by the biblegod or any other unnatural force.

I am fully aware that i do not know everything about the universe. However, I am also fully aware that you don't know everythin either. But, I am not claiming that there is anything more than what can logically and scientifically be examined.

You are.

I think that we needn't exist in this universe for the universe to exist. We are apart of it. There doesn't seem to be anything else other than what's in the universe as far as I know. But that's only what I can determine by what I know of the universe and nothing more.

But I could be wrong.

If there is a reason for it, that you can provide credible evidence for, then by all means, share.

From what I can see there is no reason for it. I don't need there to be a reason for it.

You do.

If that's not good enough for you, tough. I cannot bring myself to make up stuff to satisfy your inability to find purpose in your own existence that isn't tied to dogmatic assumption.

I find a reason to exist in the joy of being alive. Most of the time it's fun for me to exist. It's also fun to help others share in the joy of being alive by making their life better.(That is where my morals stem from.)

I, at least, don't go around trying to fool people into believing things that make no sense by claiming to know things that I don't know.

That would be you.

Now, delude yourself all you want to. But, if you expect any thinking person to believe what you have to say, have credible evidence for it and base it on logic. Not opinion, imagination, wishfull thinking, lies, inaccurate information, and conjecture with a dash of gullibility.

And you still haven't answered my question.

Dan Marvin said...

Stronger now,
"The Bible was written to make it look like the prophecies were fulfilled."

But this would mean that the Biblical writers were liars, intent on deceiving people. If that is the case, then what would motivate them to carry out such lies, to risk their own lives, to be cast out of their communities, suffer loss of property and family?

The critics need to do more than criticize. They need to provide answers to the questions that their criticism raises.

stronger now said...

Please excuse the horrid misspellings. I have a migraine.

Bill said...

I posted a plea to Dan on his blog today. When I went back later it was gone. I also clicked on one of his links that said, "All Baptists should read this". I think he is a church of god type Christian who believes one must be baptized in order to be saved. You have to click on that banner to get the true measure of Dan's way of thinking.

We used to call his kind cultish when I was a Christian. Not that it matters much now.

I would categorize Dan in the extreme fundamentalist group.

Bill said...

People die for all kinds of things Dan. The reality is that humanity is not rational. We strive to be, but we realy are not.

Let's be civil Dan said...

From Dan Marvin:
"With all due respect, you were never like me because you were NEVER a Christian. You broke a covenant you made with God."

Dan, you act like you know me on a personal level. How do you all of a sudden know so much about me? I am just a poster who felt the need to rebuke you for your behavior, and guess what Dan? You just passed judgement on a fellow brother in Christ. You have once again made all of us christians look really bad by your judgemental behavior. I'm sure atheists on here are going to enjoy tearing us to shreds now. Thanks Dan for taking away our credibility.

I would suggest you get some lessons on how to disciple and share the good news of Christ effectively and in love.

Since you like to quote scripture and judge people who you know nothing about, such as me, I will in love rebuke you my christian brother.

MATTHEW 7: 1-5
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

This applies to you too Dan, and those are not my own words. Those are the words of Jesus, and they are meant for you to hear also my brother in Christ.

I am very troubled to see someone like you on a site such as this acting in this type of manner.

Perhaps I should pray for you Dan.

In his name,

Kevin

stronger now said...

Glad to see you still can't answer my question, Dan!

Wasn't it you who suggested that these men had lying wicked hearts?

Perhaps some of the writers wrote fabrications of out of mistaken assumptions. Much like you making statements that you cannot defend logically.

Some may have lied to try and promote themselves as a conduit for god. Some may have been insane. Some may have actually believed that midrash was logical.

Also, how do you know that these men did "risk their own lives, to be cast out of their communities, suffer loss of property and family?" ? Hmm? Does it say that in the bible, Dan? Or is some of that just "christian tradition"? Either way you see the problem of useing either as evidence, don't you?

And If I said you were persecuting me for my atheism, would you put more faith in what I have to say?

Dan Marvin said...

Kevin,

I apologize I thought you were an atheist I had to go back to see what you wrote and found no evidence of that and found none. I overstepped and assumed and for that I apologize.

You threw me when you said "You remind me of the way I use to be."

Since this is an Ex-Christian blog I just assumed, forgive me if that isn't the case.

"There are many christians (Christians) who would not approve of your methods on here."

That does not affect me in the least. There are pedophile priests who claim Christianity should I follow what they do also? I am not motivated by men. Show me where I am wrong biblically in the way I talk about the Bible and I will listen.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work," (2 Tim. 3:16-17)

Bill said...

George Bernard Shaw: "But no public man...ever believes that the Bible means what it says: he is always convinced that it says what he means."

Bill said...

Being a priest convicted of sex abuse toward children does not mean they promote that kind of Christianity.

Of course you are motivated by men. God is not motivating you. How could God motivate you. He/She neither speaks, smells, appears or anything else for that matter.

You are motivated by the men who wrote the various collection of writings called the Bible. There is no proof that God litterly wrote any part of those letters. To claim such is purely a matter of belief. When belief comes before evidence then there is noting anyone can do to counter such thinking.

A person will litterly find any means to explain why or what God meant. The only proof I really see Christians claim as proof are their feelings and interpretation of events in their lives.

Dan, the fact that you still keep writing on this site means something. Take a week or two just to think about this. Stop writing on here and give us recovering Christians a break. Read my myspace blog if you want to know how I think.

http://www.myspace.com/billyvanwild

Bill said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin said...

Dan,

In regards to your following comment:

"You threw me when you said "You remind me of the way I use to be."

I can see where you would think that and that's ok. What I meant was, I use to go around like you have been doing quoting scripture and passing judgement on certain individuals.

All I ever ended up doing was provoking these same people. Nobody got saved, and I was fighting a losing battle.

You may feel that your methods are justified, however if it produces no fruits, then why continue to have a legalistic attitude towards others? It never works.

The only way people come to christ is by christ drawing them, not you beating them over the head with a bible verse. Atheists are not phased by bible scripture Dan. They see it as a joke, and they will never take you seriously.

It is not up to you to save the world Dan. Jesus wants you to share the gospel, and nothing more. If you tell an non-believer that they are going to hell, and you pass judgement on them by telling them that they are not saved, it's like pouring gasoline on a fire. It does not win them to Christ.

You only need to share what Christ did for you, and if they don't accept it, then that is not your problem. Just move on Dan. You did what God asked you to do, and that's tell people about Jesus.

It's not for you to decide who is and who is not saved. It's possible that some people who you claim are not truly saved, are only back slidden, and may one day return to Christ. Only they and God knows who is saved. Not me nor you Dan.

I'm not trying to hurt you in anyway by posting to you. I am trying to help you to minister in a more effective way. You may not agree with me and that's fine. Regardless, we are brothers in Christ and no matter our difference, we can truly agree on our salvation which comes through Jesus alone. I will not allow Satan to divide you and I on this issue. Satan enjoys seeing feuding christians. I will not allow him that satisfaction.

In His Name,

Kevin

Passerby said...

A young man who had been raised as an atheist was training to be an Olympic diver. The only religious influence in his life came from his outspoken Christian friend.

The young diver never really paid much attention to his friend's sermons, but he heard them often.

One night the diver went to the indoor pool at the college he attended. The lights were all off, but as the pool had big skylights and the moon was bright, there was plenty of light to practice by.

The young man climbed up to the highest diving board and as he turned his back to the pool on the edge of the board and extended his arms out, he saw his shadow on the wall. The shadow of his body was in the shape of a cross. The man felt a strange feeling, like someone was speaking to him.

Instead of diving, he knelt down and finally asked God to come into his life. As the young man stood, a maintenance man walked in and turned the lights on. The pool had been drained for repairs.

Remember this story and send it to a friend.

Yes, I do Love God. He is my source of existence and Savior. He keeps me functioning each and everyday. 'Without Him, I will be nothing.
Without him, I am nothing but with Him I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me.'

Phil 4:23

Dan Marvin said...

Thank you both Kevin and passerby for all of your kind words. I agree separating us is not healthy or productive.

Kevin "You only need to share what Christ did for you, and if they don't accept it, then that is not your problem. Just move on Dan."

I understand but if I can share how I witness maybe you will understand more how I work. If we just move on, not caring for the lost then are we really saved ourselves? I give you The Fire Fighter

.:webmaster:. said...

Well, Jim. It appears that you and I are set on ignore. Regardless, this certainly is an entertaining thread, wouldn't you agree?

Bryancoz said...

"The Bible itself is historic evidence of God."

No it's not. It's hear say that was produced by those wicked men with evil hearts.

However, after searching and searching I have found a website that will rest all doubts on the subject.

http://www.talk_to_god_live.com/

My gift to Dan Marvin said...

Hey Dan,

I just checked out "The Fire Fighter". Noticed you are a huge fan of "The Way Of The Master"

Here is my gift to you. This also makes a great ministry tool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liFmMcmigsQ

Astreja said...

Dan the Blogoholic: "But this would mean that the Biblical writers were liars, intent on deceiving people. If that is the case, then what would motivate them to carry out such lies, to risk their own lives, to be cast out of their communities, suffer loss of property and family?"

Short answer: They were of the ruling elite, and were never at risk of ostracism or loss of life. They designed the scriptures to keep the peons in line.

Dan Marvin said...

My gift to Dan Marvin,

argumentum ad hominem

Bryancoz said...

argumentum ad hominem

What does that mean Dan?

Bryancoz said...

Let me see if I can figure out what you are talking about before you answer me:

"argumentum ad hominem"

Is that like arguing with homosexuals and putting an ad in the paper about it?

pdwxm29 said...

Only on "Ex-Christian.Net" can you also not only find christians and Non-Christians arguing.

You can also find christians from different denominations arguing against each other and making each other look really bad.

Thanks Dan, Passerby, and Kevin.

Now where is Marc, Jason, and Computer to add their words of wisdom also?

Ray Comfort said...

I like Bananas.

I am very fascinated with them.

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