Christianity: the ultimate free-card

Sent in by Stephanie

One of the prevalent themes in Christianity is forgiveness; forgiveness of sins against one another, forgiveness of yourself and God’s forgiveness of us all. In my brief stint and attempt at being a Christian I have learned one thing about this theme: it is the ultimate free card and not only allows you to do anything you want but it even removes all personal responsibility from your actions.

Christians; they seem like a nice group. They are always talking about loving one another and living their lives for others and not for themselves. It sounds as though if you are living in a Christian home you would be surrounded with so much love and support that it would be almost impossible for you to feel insecure, scared and unloved. I certainly bought into that ideal and after growing up without stability and reassurance I thought there had to be something better than what I knew already.

Then I met someone who convinced me that there was. It was called the “Christian lifestyle”. Here there was love, stability and I was promised that I would always be protected, honored, and cherished. A Christian husband would die for his wife and putting her and the family first was what it was all about. Now it wasn’t perfection but it is what they all strive for, why they go to church and what the Bible teaches them. It sounded promising and I was given my first Bible and told that this was the answer to everything. I read, but what I learned from experience would be more poignant.

When my spouse did things that were hurtful to me, I would express hurt; I would cry, or simply state that I did not like what was going on. In the beginning, that was enough. I was again reassured that as a Christian husband, his primary goal was to cherish me and he would do whatever it took to make me happy. We would pray for strength and guidance and that God would make everything in our relationship better. I was comforted by the fact that the Bible was actually saying that the thing I had issue with was wrong but I was introduced to something that until now I had not really understood about the Christian life: FOREGIVENESS.

Now this sounds like a good thing and initially, I believed it was. I mean, after all, I am not perfect but overall I would say I am a good natured person and do not mean to hurt anyone. I make mistakes so if I were to do something that hurt my relatively new spouse, I would love to be forgiven and learn from my experience how not to hurt him going forward. It was somehow comforting to know he would not be holding a grudge about something I had done that unintentionally hurt him. It was also comforting to know that if I said something in anger in the middle of a fight that I regretted, that too could be forgiven. Again, I am anything but perfect and since I am new at this whole “Christian thing” I figured I needed as much grace as possible.

Then, the reality began to sink in. My husband would hurt me again and this time, it was not enough to express it and crying became a manipulative attempt to control him. Apparently you are also called to bite your tongue when upset and wait patiently for the perfect opportunity to respectfully address your wounds. Once all of this was semi sorted out, I would hear those words that I would grow to hate; I’m sorry. Now most women would love to hear this and initially I did as well; I asked for it, but then I would wonder aloud how it is we are having the same argument we had just two weeks ago and he had done the same thing and was again, sorry. This did not make sense to me. If you know something is hurtful and you love someone and they have asked you to stop, the loving thing would be to stop, right? What came next was even harder to understand: if I did not accept the apology immediately (per the Bible) I was the one not living right. Now I will admit that this was tough and I fought it at every turn. It seemed counter intuitive to me to allow someone to continue to hurt me in the exact same way without some sort of consequence and that somehow if I did not forgive this, I was the one who was not living “like a Christian”. I apparently did not understand the meaning of forgiveness. It did not matter that someone was repeatedly hurting me in exactly the same way over and over and over again. Promises to stop were broken time and time again and at each confrontation, the message was the same: “I have said I am sorry and if you do not accept it that is your problem”.

This is when it hit me that forgiveness for Christians is a free card. It allows them to do what they want to whomever they want and in the end, they ask for forgiveness from the person they hurt and God and it is done. God forgives no matter what. Then the person you hurt has a choice. If they “choose” to be fed up with what might seem like insincerity after multiple offenses, they are pitied because they are unable to forgive. The best part is, the offender actually gets to walk away feeling good about themselves and their salvation without any personal responsibility for the emotional carnage they may have left behind. That is for God and the hurt person to deal with. HOW GREAT IS THAT!!!! You can actually choose repeatedly to hurt someone you profess to love be it lies, infidelity, whatever and the wounded individual is called by GOD to forgive you immediately and you have no additional responsibility. They need not feel guilty because God has forgiven them and God asks that they forgive themselves. If the person they hurt continues to languish in pain that is their problem. They feel sorry for you but not because they have hurt you, because you can’t get over it. There is no guilt, no remorse and certainly no real motivation to change. I mean, if you screw up again, you can simply ask for forgiveness again and no matter how many times you ask, you get it.

This is when I decided that this lifestyle is not for me. It was, for a moment, somewhat appealing to me to think about how I could use this theme as well. I mean, surely that also meant that I could continue to do things I promised I would not and be easily forgiven, right? I could hurt the people around me time and again and have no real lasting consequence because I am immediately forgiven and if they can’t forgive me that is their issue to work on. How freeing is that?

Unfortunately, it also made me feel like a hypocrite. I can hear myself clearly, lecturing my two children about how they treat each other. They are constantly fighting, saying mean and nasty things to one another and every time, I am on them touting the benefits of being good to each other and if they cannot be, some clear consequences are coming from me in the form of anything from a loss of privilege to a swat on the butt. What I had signed on to teach them via Christianity was that they could go ahead and be mean to each other as long as they apologized afterwards. There was really no need to even try to change going forward as God would forgive them anyway and if their sibling could not, it is their sibling I should be lecturing because clearly they did not understand the Biblical principal of forgiveness or as I like to call it: the free card.

52 comments:

stronger now said...

Actions speak louder than words.

"Sorry" doesn't cut it sometimes.

christopher said...

whats the point of death?

redtail said...

Stephanie...Great testimony, I can really relate to what you're saying. I had a very similar situation but my husband was not even a christian so he was basically accountable for nothing! I saw this same scenario you are talking about played out amongst my friends and other couples in the church all the time and it was one of the things that always used to drive me nuts.

Bill said...

Great letter and I have thought that all along. There is no real motivation by the Christian to change their behavior because of the open ended forgiveness clause. You can fuck up until the bitter end and all will be well.

As an athesit I can be the kindest most giving person in the world but I am burning in hell, yet the Christian could rape and kill 37 people and be completely forgiven and spend eternity in heaven.

Where is the motivation to change?

xrayman

Dan Marvin said...

Stephanie,

That person was never a Christian. I don't understand everything about you and what you went through but Psychologists call something like this Stockholm syndrome. Let me ask you something though with that mentality or logic are to to submit to your husband if he is molesting your child also? No Way! Right? The Bible says to REBUKE evil not live with it.

Remember what it says in Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"

But what does this truly mean. Does that mean we are to love them no matter what they do because we are sinners also? Do we cottle them in their sins, tell them God loves them no matter what? Nope Jesus was clear when he said this. He was telling us what the standard was. The way to show your love to your neighbor is to warn them and their sins will take them to hell.

The only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I thought I would just add something to your conversation about woman. Men have free will on earth to do as they please but just in Gods defense I have a little input. We are called bride of Christ for a reason, God loves woman. Yes woman submit to the husband and husband submit to God. See we are playing the role of the marriage that will happen in heaven with Jesus and his believers. Stay loyal in Christ and you will understand how exalted you will be in heaven.

"Many women don't like what the Bible says because it calls wives to "submit to their husbands." However, submission is not limited to wives submitting to their husbands. We are told to submit to God, governmental authorities, our boss, and leaders in the assembly. We are also told to submit to one another, which includes men submitting women and vice versa. God is a God of order. In a sinful world, submission to those in authority is the only way to maintain order."

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Traits from man and woman equal make up "image of God"

What about Genesis 2:18 where it says it is "not good" for man to be alone.

How did God treat women? Remember story of Esther?

You then have to ask, How did Jesus treat women? Like the woman at the well or Mary Magdalene or even the prostitute about to get stoned.

"The women described in the Bible are not always homemakers and mothers. Obviously, the biological function of women is to produce children. However, Deborah was both a judge and leader of Israel.(Judges 4:4) Other women were involved in ridding Israel of her enemies.(Judges 4:21) Quite a number of women are described as being prophetesses.(Exodus 15:20,2 Kings 22:14,Luke 2:36) Other women in the Bible were involved in teaching the Word of God(Acts 18:26)"

Countless other verses point to Jesus holding high regard for women.

"God's people are referred to as female, not male. In the Old Testament, God's people are the "daughters of Zion." The Body of Christ (including us men) is referred to as the "bride" of Christ and God is said to be our "husband." Whenever referred to by sex, the assembly is described as "she" or "her." (Ephesians 5:25,27)"

In conclusion we have one verse that sums it all up: Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Resource: godandscience.org/

Rejoice in the fact that you are truly loved in Christ, even if no man on earth knows what love is.

Amen

Dan Marvin said...

Bill: "You can fuck up until the bitter end and all will be well."

That is utter nonsense, Bill.
You must approach God with a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 34:18,Psalm 51:17)

You do understand God knows our thought life right. Jesus said if you look with lust it's adultery of the heart. You cannot fool God in any way shape or form. It take true repentance and trusting your life with Jesus. Then God shall give you a NEW heart and you will be born again. Someone living in sin is NOT a Christian

SEO said...

hExcellent post Stephanie!

My best friend’s mom just went through this with the church that she had been going to: the bickering, gossip, backstabbing, and the seemingly purposefulness of it all. Along with many of the folk’s complete inability to learn a lesson and the enabling atmosphere that a church provides: “Oops, my bad. I’m a lowly sinner and the devil made me do it. Please, forgive me. Rinse and repeat.”

Anonymous said...

Hi, Dan!!

Pretty sure you were banned.

Sincerely,
Monk

Moonpeal said...

If Christianity were really true then the husband would not be able to get away with such "loving" behavior. If Christianity were really true then we would not see these kinds of patterns over and over, where the victims are told to repent because they are the ones with the problem of not being able to forgive. We would see Christians transformed by the vaunted power of Christ living within them, which would cause them to not do these things over and over and expecting to get away with a mere apology. But, no, it seems that all the preaching and shame and blame (where is freedom, where is love in that?) is heaped upon those who are hurt by the mortal foibles of Christians who are manifestly NOT transformed by any power to behave any differently than they behaved before they were possessed by the holy spirit. Shame on the VICTIM for failing to have forgiveness, a sufficient appreciation of the love of Christ, for failing to grow and mature so that they continue to cry out when getting shafted over and over by the same thing (without true repentance on the part of the perpetrator hiding behind the supposed holiness of their own faith). Women are taught to be submissive, selfless, dependent, sacrificing. So, if they are beaten or controlled or hurt by the men, well, it is their own fault, and they are discouraged from doing anything about it, they are discouraged from leaving, from judging, they are discouraged from doing anything but questioning their own contribution to the situation - they must believe it is all their fault. Such is the loving support and life transforming power of the spirit and the fellowship of the church. No, there is no free pass in this, or if there is, it is one-sided. There is a great deal of hell-fire and exhortation spewed from the pulpit, and it lands on the vulnerable ones, though they be among the "saved" no less than the husbands. Much evil is done in the name of Christ, fellowship and the spirit. If it were really true, this would not be the case. It is a pattern seen over and over again that can not be blown away as "oh, well, that guy is not really a Christian".

SEO said...

Bill: “You can fuck up until the bitter end and all will be well."

I’m with Bill.

You can absolutely wallow in debauchery, revel in cruelty, wreak utter havoc, and spread hate and discontent. Yet if you repent and mean it, you get the same seat in heaven as the person who spent his/her entire life in piety.

And as Bill said: As an atheist I can be the kindest most giving person in the world but I am burning in hell.

That’s justice for ya.

Dan Marvin said...

Moonpeal:"If Christianity were really true then the husband would not be able to get away with such "loving" behavior."

Who said he is getting away with it. God knows what he is doing. Like satan, he is abusing his free will and that will be taken from him on Judgment day.

Moonpeal:"If Christianity were really true then we would not see these kinds of patterns over and over, where the victims are told to repent because they are the ones with the problem of not being able to forgive."

Just because you claim Christianity doesn't mean you are. You are possibly forgetting or purposefully not listening of the the parable of the Weeds in Matthew 13:24-30. The weeds will be cast into the fire remember. Basically every single thing you said cannot be backed up biblically.

SEO "And as Bill said: As an atheist I can be the kindest most giving person in the world but I am burning in hell. That’s justice for ya. " Are Bill and yourself claiming that you never broke God's Law (Ten Commandments). If you have then you are lawbreakers and deserve punishment. That's true justice for ya.

Courtney said...

Dan,

So you believe the person who, say, breaks one commandment by stealing a pack of gum once, but otherwise lives a loving and altruistic life, though not believing in God (yes, it happens all the time) deserves to be tortured for all eternity, the EXACT same punishment that a murdering, abusive, raping stealing cheat who repents at the end of his life will get? Interesting. Hm. Maybe if this country actually were founded to be a Christian nation (it was not) then we need to change our justice system to make it compatible with Yahweh's standards!

Courtney said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Dan M.

You can not judge the heart of her husband. He may really be sorry and asking forgiveness. What then? Not everyone operates on the same level of introspection. You are claiming to know who is a christian and who isn't. This is another claim every christian makes.

Yes, I know who the real lover of christ is. Whatever! Please stop witnessing to us former born again christians. Please just go away or ask questions for clarification. Your preaching is not helpful.

stronger now said...

Dan-the-man,

You can't even begin to tell us, in a rational well thought out way, why you believe those lying wicked men who wrote the bible.

But still you can't help but quote from it, as if it were somehow believeable.

Get some help you stupid ass!

The bible was written by MEN!

Lying wicked MEN!

Why should we or anyone else put trust in what those men, those wicked liars, wrote it?

Anonymous said...

To Dan:

Oh, I see, if I don't keep the 10 commandments I roast in hell forever. Sounds fair to me.....shut up and go away.

I am so close to god right now. I mean, wow, I love him/her so much because if I don't....I burn in hell with the devil forever.

Can't you even see how crazy you sound. God makes the commandments and sends us to hell if we don't keep them, or ask jesus to forgive us over and over again. Why make such a perverted justice system forcing everyone to bow to jesus? Seems pretty selfish to me.

I like being rational and easy going. It makes much more sense to be kind to people because it's the reational thing to do verses being commanded by GODDDDD! Yikes!

stronger now said...

Come on Dan! Did you really think we would believe anything that you say?

Tell us why YOU believe them wicked liars.

Do you think that we could be as gullible as you?

Anonymous said...

why are all of you always so angry?

karekare2112 said...

Oh, Dan, come on, my man. You keep "proving" your point by quoting that book written by control-minded men thousands of years ago. Stop already! It's so old! You are so annoying that it's really become just a big joke to all of us to read your "input." But keep it up, 'cos we need to laugh now and again, since we're all going to burn in hell, as opposed to you, you lucky basard, who believes in a flying spirit and therefore will live in glory forever. Give me a break...

stronger now said...

Hey Dan! You're not making logical sense, AND your not answering the question.

You are being stupid. Be reasonable and answer what I ask. Or are you afraid?

Astreja said...

Why are we so angry? Because people like Dan come in here and try to rationalize spousal abuse using a piece-of-flaming-excrement book plagiarized from old Mesopotamian mythology.

Moonpearl sums it up nicely: "If Christianity were really true then the husband would not be able to get away with such "loving" behavior... We would see Christians transformed by the vaunted power of Christ living within them, which would cause them to not do these things over and over and expecting to get away with a mere apology."

The alleged transforming power of this mythical god-man seems to work only in people who want it to work and try to make it work.

There seem to be no godly hall monitors pouring out blessings only on True Christians™ and smacking down "Christians-in-name-alone".

Considering the social and political capital that comes along with playing the "I'm a Christian Too!" game, this is no trivial matter. Thousands of individuals are being abused by people of completely incompatible character, and the only thing they have in common is a claim to the same beliefs. For one, these beliefs provide solace, guilt and rationalization; for the other, a mask and a weapon.

Dan puts his foot in his mouth big time with: "Let me ask you something though with that mentality or logic are to to submit to your husband if he is molesting your child also? No Way! Right?"

Dan, it goes far beyond the Stockholm Syndrome. People in abusive relationships lose self-esteem, lose energy, suffer from major depression, develop psychogenic illnesses such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and overall are in a very, very bad place mentally and physically. A woman who is literally numb from the mental anguish of "submitting" may -- And frequently does -- take action if the abusive spouse goes after the kids.

Unfortunately, by that time the damage has been done -- Severe and often permanent damage that may follow the family for generations. The kids have seen their father treating their mother in a cruel, controlling fashion -- And some do take to heart their father's quasi-Biblical justification and mirror their parents' behaviour in their own relationships.

Calling on an abused spouse to "rebuke" her (or his!) partner is just blaming the victim.

There is a limit to what one can reasonably write off with the "god doesn't intervene because it wants us to have free will" excuse. And the "suffering" angle is also unconscionable. Apparently, the Bible's alleged author simply cannot bother to protect vulnerable, trusting people who fall prey to Christian predators.

Courtney said...

Oh Dan, be a sport and just please TRY to answer my question, even though you know as well as I do that you cannot answer it without seeming either callous or stupid....so:

Do you feel that it is right and just, as apparently God feels, that a wonderful, kind, loving, giving and caring person who happens to disbelieve in any gods and even once stole a pack of gum, thereby breaking a commandment, deserves to be tortured for all eternity in EXACTLY the same way as God will punish a murdering, lying, raping, fornicating child-abusing person who also doesn't believe in any gods?

Yes or no, Dan? Please, I'm very interested.

clair said...

Dan, I'm glad for you that you have the answers. The Christians that I work with suggested today that we get back to Saturday afternoon hangings at the town square, and vigilante justice. Some people are nice, some are mean, but everyone thinks they are correct in their judgement of others. Are you, Dan? Do you stand in judgement of me or my family? Your smug yammerings shall be returned to you many times, and you will grind your teeth to dust in your mouth in frustration. We are unimportant to you, don't trouble yourself longer than you already have. But what better way to spend your time, and days than fighting online with this bunch of no-account hell bound folks? Always trudging sadly and wearily toward the grave for Jesus, yes? I look forward to the peace and quiet, no heaven, no hell, just a box, some velvet, a nice soft pillow, whatever jewelery the grave-robbers don't like.(I don't wear jewelery, they will be so disappointed) Just kidding, I'm actually going in the jar. Then stronger-now can pour me out into the Savannah river. He will have been drinking at the Moon River brewing company, so when he dumps me out and I swirl back into his face, he will get choked on me and fall in. He will hit his head on the Waving-Girl statue, and expire, sadly becoming just another bloated corpse. But this will sweeten your stay in the eternal Mall of America in the sky. Because you tried, dear God, you tried. (I've been with S.N. for fifteen years, he never stops his arguing. Or, he has not yet.)Whatever guys, wear yourselves out.

Dylan said...

Dan said
"stronger now is very bitter and extremely angry at Jesus. He doesn't believe in the Bible and tries to get others to agree with him for validation. He doesn't use logic or even common sense for understanding. He puts his fingers in his ears and screams "la la la la la"! you know like children do. It is very hard to have an adult conversation with him. We are to still love them in their misunderstanding"

Projecting much?

Here is a thought Dan...maybe the reason everyone you talk to reacts angrily is that you are an insensitive jerk, who thinks perpetuating and pandering your stupid religion is more important than people's well being. Ever consider that?

stronger now said...

O.k. How can I be angry when living with someone like clair?

Dan, I'm just asking for an answer.

If you're unable to give a well reasoned answer, then just say so.

Is my preceived emotional state really what's keeping you from forming a coherent response?

If so how?

AtheistToothFairy said...

Stephanie said:
"There is no guilt, no remorse and certainly no real motivation to change. I mean, if you screw up again, you can simply ask for forgiveness again and no matter how many times you ask, you get it"
---
Stephanie,

How many news reports have we seen on this site, where some xtian 'leader' was caught in some criminal activity and all we hear about from his supporters, is how 'gawd' forgave them, so us humans should to etc..

So let's see how this plays out:

A xtian can do ANYTHING wrong they please, ask gawd to forgive them and the door to heaven remains open to them. So of course, no earthly penalty should be inflicted upon them for their 'sin' or crime to humanity because gawd forgave them and will just fix everything etc..

Ahhh, but if a non-xtian can't find enough supporting evidence to buy into this jebus savior, yet lived a life that far exceeded the supposed 'good' most xtians claim to have done on this earth, then this non-belief is the worst possible 'sin' ever, and they get to fry in hell for all of time etc..

Where is the accountability to our fellow humans (and even our planet and it's life forms), if one can do as one pleases and just look up to 'heaven' and beg god for his forgiveness after sinning against another etc.?

I also see NO REASON to keep forgiving someone who repeatedly does something wrong to hurt a person and pretends they are sorry--- or refuses to get help if it's something beyond their own self-control.
Humans are not gods and can't be expected to just forgive-and-forget, time-after-time, for the same 'sin' against us.
There comes a time when such abusive people just need to be kicked out of our lives, if for no other reason than to stop the pain of them being in our lives.


Also, please don't listen to this "Dan Marvin" fundie, as he's clearly living far outside reality, much as those in padded rooms tend to live out their lives in a fantasy realm that exists only within in their own deluded minds.


ATF (who thinks that a belief in any creator god, is a belief in utter madness)

Anonymous said...

Hi, Dan!

Since you're back, I expect you to start addressing the issues we've raised for you. Quoting endless bible verses and trading ad hominems does not constitute addressing those issues.

If you don't address the issues, the webmaster nicely asked you not to come back.

Sincerely,
Monk

Anonymous said...

By the way, Dan, I followed the link to your blog page. That's an adorable child you are holding. Why not spend more time nurturing that wonderful child and less time spewing your message of hate where it isn't wanted?

Just a thought.

trumpeter said...

What Stephanie said is really resounding: "The best part is, the offender actually gets to walk away feeling good about themselves and their salvation without any personal responsibility for the emotional carnage they may have left behind. That is for God and the hurt person to deal with. HOW GREAT IS THAT!!!! You can actually choose repeatedly to hurt someone you profess to love be it lies, infidelity, whatever and the wounded individual is called by GOD to forgive you immediately and you have no additional responsibility. They need not feel guilty because God has forgiven them and God asks that they forgive themselves. If the person they hurt continues to languish in pain that is their problem. They feel sorry for you but not because they have hurt you, because you can’t get over it. There is no guilt, no remorse and certainly no real motivation to change. I mean, if you screw up again, you can simply ask for forgiveness again and no matter how many times you ask, you get it."


However, I would like to say that sorry is one of the cheapest words in the world. (there also may be some song title like that.)

Sorry should accompany drastic behavioral change. No sorry without change of action is actually a true repentance. If there is no true repentance, no true forgiveness is required.

The person and many disinformed christians are misusing repentance as a good tool to bleach their tainted concience, which is very disgusting. The repentance in christianity is not so cheap but acually very serious and difficult, I guess.

However, if you forgive him regardless of his saying fake sorry, it will show that you're over his trash head and concience.

Anonymous said...

Stephanie,

Thank you for nicely articulating one of the greatest issues I have against Christianity.

Well said! Thanks again.

.:webmaster:. said...

Remember people, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven!

*Snort, snort, snigger*

Eylisha said...

I am an exchristian but I disagree with your view on forgiveness. I think that people should be forgiven but corrective measure taken in rehabilitating the person for example to leave an continually abusive spouse so as you are no longer fascilitating their poor behaviour and then if they prove they have changed you can either reunite or choose not to. that way you don't harbor resentment but take affirmative action.
As for Dan I do believe your God might be just according to his own law about what people deserve but I don't believe in justice which is just another way of retribution I believe in correction that is why I think hell is so unloving for example if we practiced justice with our children we would toss them out on the street because they are egotistical ungrateful and often times greedy and manipulative but we love them enough to practice correction.

Rick said...

Dan Marvin puked : The only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I guess you forgot this little nugget in your book :

- "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26

More from Dan : You then have to ask, How did Jesus treat women? Like the woman at the well or Mary Magdalene or even the prostitute about to get stoned.

The story of the prostitute about to be stoned has been proven to be a story added in much later and does not exist in the earliest examples of the bible. You are misquoting Jesus. But it makes him sound so wise that believers simply like to keep it in.

The rest of your comments read like a Sunday preaching and I might actually listen to them, if you could only provide supporting evidence to prove the claim of either god, Jesus, or the validity of the bible. Sadly, you cannot so your words are nothing more than the ramblings of a fanatic and hold no more truth than any other thought up religion.

Believers are scared little people who cannot accept their place in reality.

Telmi said...

Dan,

What about these passages [NIV]:

Exodus

23.24. Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces.
31.14. 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Leviticus

10.1. Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command.
10.2. So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.
20.1. The LORD said to Moses,
20.2. "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death.
20.13. " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
20.27. " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "
24.13. Then the LORD said to Moses:
24.14. "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.
24.16. anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Numbers

11.1. Now the people complained about their hardships in the hearing of the LORD, and when he heard them his anger was aroused. Then fire from the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.
16.35. And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
25.4. The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the LORD's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."
25.16. The LORD said to Moses,
25.17. "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

Deuteronomy

7.2. and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
12.2. Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods.
12.3. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
13.6. If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known,
13.7. gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
13.8. do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him.
13.9. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

Joshua

6.20. When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city.
6.21. They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
8.24. When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it.
8.25. Twelve thousand men and women fell that day - all the people of Ai.
8.26. For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai.
8.27. But Israel did carry off for themselves the livestock and plunder of this city, as the LORD had instructed Joshua.
10.11. As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.
10.29. Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it.
10.30. The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel's hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.

1 Samuel

6.19. But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD.
15.1. Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.
15.2. This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
15.3. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

2 Samuel

5.19. so David inquired of the LORD, "Shall I go and attack the Philistines? Will you hand them over to me?" The LORD answered him, "Go, for I will surely hand the Philistines over to you."
5.23. so David inquired of the LORD, and he answered, "Do not go straight up, but circle around behind them and attack them in front of the balsam trees.

2 Kings

2.23. From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"
2.24. He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Isaiah

34.2. The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.
34.3. Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
60.12. For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined.

Jeremiah

14.11. Then the LORD said to me, "Do not pray for the well-being of this people.
14.12. Although they fast, I will not listen to their cry; though they offer burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Instead, I will destroy them with the sword, famine and plague."
19.14. Jeremiah then returned from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and stood in the court of the LORD's temple and said to all the people,
19.15. "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words.' "

Now for some New Testament stuff:

Matthew

10.14. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
10.15. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
10.32. "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
10.33. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
10.34. "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
10.35. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law
10.36. a man's enemies will be the members of his own household
12.30."He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
12.31. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
12.32. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
13.40. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
13.41. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
13.42. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark

8.38. If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.
16.16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John

12. 48. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
15.6. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Galatians

1.8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
1.9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

2 Thessalonians

1.6. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
1.7. and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
1.8. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
1.9. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

James

4.4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

1 John

2.22. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son.
2.23. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
[End of biblical quotes]

Dan, would you agree that the Bible God - regardless whether he exists - is portrayed as a malevolent maniac in these passages?

And since you believe in Christ, you will have to agree that in the context of the duality in unity concept [Christ allegedly said: "I and the Father are one"] or in the Trinity doctrine, Christ is none other than the maniac referred to above?

Agree/disagree?

Ellytoad said...

I agree with you. Abusing the Christian command to forgive by disregarding the emotional carnage that you're knowingly leaving behind is truly heinous.
I wonder if I could add a point of my own here, about a Christian I knew once who seemed to have a problem with forgiving even when the person who hurt them emotionally really did it by accident and is truly sorry (and says so). I personally don't have any difficulty forgiving someone after a sincere apology.

Optimalist thinker said...

I am reminded of a quotation:

A naive person never forgives; a fool forgives and forgets; a wise man forgives but never forgets.

This is generally true, but there should be an amendum to this. Forgiveness should only be given after the offender fixes the problem. Unfortunately, we can never know if the offender fixes the problem. Like Mark Twain said:

To cease smoking is the easiest thing I ever did; I ought to know because I’ve done it a thousand times

Anonymous said...

Monk said;
"By the way, Dan, I followed the link to your blog page. That's an adorable child you are holding. Why not spend more time nurturing that wonderful child..."
Well, maybe it would be better if he didn't... I would discribe it as an unfortunate child.
Boe

Dan Marvin said...

I mean, if you screw up again, you can simply ask for forgiveness again and no matter how many times you ask, you get it.
Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
if you could only provide supporting evidence to prove the claim of either god, Jesus, or the validity of the bible.

I have said this before here. You have heard of Julius Caesar and I am sure you believe that he existed right? Well there were 10 manuscripts of antiquity that explained who he was as we know him today. 10 that is it, in one language, everything we know today about him came from just those 10 manuscripts. Do you know how many manuscripts of antiquity about Jesus? Any guess?

The New Testament we have either in fragments or partials within 25 years, 40 years of events we have 5,300 partials or complete manuscripts in Greek (the original language) and 19,000 other languages. You want a reliable book and you believe Julius Caesar existed? You can believe that Jesus existed and he did exactly what it says in the Bible because you have eye witness accounts.

Boe I would discribe (describe) it as an unfortunate child. I forgive you

Courtney said...

Dan, why are you ignoring me? Please refer to my question above.

Rick said...

Dan Marvin tried to explain it away with : Do you know how many manuscripts of antiquity about Jesus? Any guess?

Too easy. Because Caesar was documented by multiple historians, left written records of his rule, had coins minted after him, had statues made of him during his lifetime as well as records from neighboring countries, cities, and nations documenting his interaction with them and general historic events involving him. Supporting Link

Christ? A few mentions outside of the bible decades after he died. Why no written records from Christ? Why was someone who was so pivotal in religion not get more mention outside of the bible? A book who's earliest writings on him were nearly 50 years after his death and told second hand! A book that shows the descriptions of his performed miracles growing more and more fantastical with each telling through time.

The only thing proclaiming that the bible is true is the bible itself. But I'm sure that circular logic escapes you, as it does most believers.

Dan Marvin argues : You can believe that Jesus existed and he did exactly what it says in the Bible because you have eye witness accounts.

What witnesses would that be? The authors of the Gospels? Because if this is your claim the you might be interested in as well as this site which has done alot of work looking at the "witnesses".

But even setting aside these works, one must wonder how trustable are "witnesses" who are trying to put forth something that they want others to believe. You base all this biblical nonsense because it claims to have eye witnesses? So what? With no other means of validation how can you even conceivably accept truth of people who have an agenda?

The mythology of the Greek gods have witnesses. The prophet Mohammad is a witness for the Islamic religion. How about Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormons?

Give me some real evidence or just admit that you believe because you simply like believing - not because its proven true.

Franciscan Monkey said...

Dan said:

I have said this before here. You have heard of Julius Caesar and I am sure you believe that he existed right? Well there were 10 manuscripts of antiquity that explained who he was as we know him today. 10 that is it, in one language, everything we know today about him came from just those 10 manuscripts. Do you know how many manuscripts of antiquity about Jesus? Any guess?

The New Testament we have either in fragments or partials within 25 years, 40 years of events we have 5,300 partials or complete manuscripts in Greek (the original language) and 19,000 other languages. You want a reliable book and you believe Julius Caesar existed? You can believe that Jesus existed and he did exactly what it says in the Bible because you have eye witness accounts.


Yes, you are correct, you have said that before, Dan. In fact, you must have C&P'd, as it is wordede exactly the same. However, you did not respond to my rebuttal of your manuscript claim last time, so I will repost my original response verbatim below:

I am assuming that you mean 400 years, not 40 years. Even the most generous list (from Thiede, who is very controversial, to say the least) of the earliest NT manuscripts has just 6 fragments (P4, P46, P64, P67, 7Q4, & 7Q5) from the entire first century. Please note, that most of these dates are disputed, even by very conservative theologians.

To comment further this time, only one of those manuscripts is of significant length, P46, which contains Romans 5:17 through 1 Thessalonians 5:28. These were purportedly written by Paul, who never claimed to be an eyewitness to the earthly Jesus. Most scholars date P46 as having been written AD 175 or later. P67 contains parts of only 9 verses, P4 contains parts of only verses 2, and P64 contains parts of only 8 verses. All three were likely written around the same time, AD 150 or later. 7Q4 and 7Q5 are most likely from the first century, however, both are so fragmentary that many scholars doubt that they are actually quotes from the NT.

All in all, Dan, the early manuscript evidence of the New Testament, particularly as it pertains to an eyewitness account of Jesus, is pitiful.

Please comment as to whether you believe your statement, "40 years of events we have 5,300 partials or complete manuscripts in Greek (the original language) and 19,000 other languages" is accurate, and provide a list of such manuscripts that are within 40 years of the events, or a link to such a list.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

AtheistToothFairy said...

Dan Marvin blurted out his false facts:
"You have heard of Julius Caesar and I am sure you believe that he existed right?"
Well there were 10 manuscripts of antiquity that explained who he was as we know him today. 10 that is it, in one language, everything we know today about him came from just those 10 manuscripts. Do you know how many manuscripts of antiquity about Jesus? Any guess?

----
I always get a kick out of xtians trying to compare the 'quantity' of recorded historical documents of Caesar, with their Jesus bible.
They are convinced that it's some sort of contest, who's winner depends on who had the most words written about him.

First off Dan ole buddy, Caesar never made claims that he was a god with supernatural powers.
It's a simple rule that those of us who can THINK have, and it goes like this:

Extarordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!!!

It wasn't Caesar that made extraordinary claims about himself, so he doesn't require extraordinary evidence and we have plenty of historical evidence from both his own hand and the hand of many others, to prove he lived and ruled over his empire.
We have sculptures made of him that are accurate likenesses and even coins made in his honor, from his own era)

On the other hand, your jesus 'pet rock' was SAID to have done many extraordinary miracles, was SAID to have been born of a Virgin, and was SAID to have been raised from the dead and is finally SAID to be the son-of-god.
Therefore, he was supposedly far more extraordinary than Caesar, so where is the extraordinary evidence of both his life and the miracles he performed?

Do we have any writings penned by the hand of the human jesus....NO.
Do we have any paintings or sculptures that show us what Jesus really looked like....NO
All we have of his life is hearsay evidence, written long after his death and most likely not written by anyone who ever laid eye's upon his face.
Some 'evidence' you got there Dan ole buddy.

Now if anyone here is wondering if Dan here is telling the truth, I offer this web page that will show what a LIAR this Dan character is. Some xtain you are Dan ole pal.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html

"Unlike the mythical Jesus Christ, we know what Caesar looked like and we have a complete history of his life. In turn, general, orator, historian, statesman and lawgiver. We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his friends and his enemies. Artifacts confirm his life and death, as do his successors. Caesar established a style of government – and a calendar – which endured for centuries."

See the link for many more facts about the Caesar of our real history.


As far as the reliability of the biblical accounts of Jesus, they are clearly lacking.

Here is a sample about what the author say's on the subject of Dan's Jesus.....

"But we're still not out of the woods. On several occasions the gospel writers quite specifically report Jesus’ conversations when neither they nor any other humans were present.
Who would have had the faintest idea of what Jesus said when he was on his own? For example, chapter 17 of the Gospel of John is entirely taken up with a monologue addressed by a solitary Jesus to God himself."

So Dan, you're 'barking up the wrong tree' if you think you can use this old lying apologetic to fool anyone here.
Can you say WOOF-WOOF Dan?


ATF (Who wonders why fundies can't break their habit of lying to us all)

.:webmaster:. said...

Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire: A Look into the World of the Gospels.

The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament (Paperback).

The Formation of the New Testament Canon (2000) and Luke and Josephus (2000).

Dan Marvin said...

so webmaster let me get this strait you will believe a book written by one man in 1993 called "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament (Paperback)."

But not "The Bible" written by about 40 men in about 1600 years dating from 1500 B.C. to about 100 A.D.

Oh, umm OK just checking. Your logic is questionable like the logic used to choose the name of your blog.

Astreja said...

Dan,

If you intend to teach that child your fucked-up religion, then it is indeed in a very bad place. I agree with Boe.

And don't bother 'forgiving' me. Coming from an uncritical toady like you, it is a meaningless gesture.

Now go away.

Dan Marzin said...

Bwahahahahahahaha, yeah Dan M, it's the difference between reading fiction and non-fiction, do you understand the difference :-)

Fiction; "1. the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, esp. in prose form."

The Christian Bible is "full" of imaginative form; it has flying chariots of fire, talking donkeys & snakes & burning bushes, floating axe heads, mystical changing of water into wine, walking on water, building boats to hold two of every living creature on earth, etc., makes for "great" fiction.

whateverlolawants said...

Stephanie, thanks for sharing. Not only did your story make me think about the flaws of Xianity (a flaw that had always troubled me as a kid), but it also made me think about the concepts of "sorry", forgiveness, emotional abuse, change, etc. Not in a religious way, but about how they apply to my personal life at the moment. Thank you for that.

stronger now said...

Dan-the-man,

Still can't seem to answer my questions?

Lies, Dan. That's all they are. Lies by wicked lying writers.

I hope you can see that someday.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan, in case you hadn't noticed, there are hundreds of thousands of Christian websites out there. Those who want to buy into threats of hell from poorly educated zealots who are quoting from magical legends that were penned centuries ago by ignorant primitives can easily find more than an adequate supply and variety of religiously deluded peddlers hawking their wares. The only difficulty shoppers might run into is determining which brand of lunacy to choose. If they meet up with your brand, may no-god help them.

You've had your say here. You've quoted your silly myths. You've threatened your fellow human beings with horrific never ending torture and redefined eternal torture as love. You've defended your position and met each of my ad hominems with one or more of your own. You've done your job and earned another cluster in your crown. Arguing with a hardcore cultist like you is pointless, and trying to convince people like you of anything is not the reason this site exists. Read the site disclaimer, and if you simply can't restrain yourself from trying to make this site your personal little mission field, then please go play somewhere else.

Thanks.

fjell said...

Dan Marvin said: "...let me get this strai[gh]t you will believe a book written by one man in 1993 called "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament (Paperback)."

But not "The Bible" written by about 40 men in about 1600 years dating from 1500 B.C. to about 100 A.D."


Yeah, kind of the way I tend to "believe" NASA reports about our solar system in favor of all the astronomical musings from the ancient world combined.

Kind of the way I tend to "believe" a doctor's report about an illness in favor of all the ramblings about demon possession found in antiquity.

Call me crazy.

fjell

rickyusvi said...

Dan Marvin wrote: “The New Testament we have either in fragments or partials within 25 years, 40 years of events we have 5,300 partials or complete manuscripts in Greek (the original language) and 19,000 other languages. You want a reliable book and you believe Julius Caesar existed? You can believe that Jesus existed and he did exactly what it says in the Bible because you have eye witness accounts.”

So it’s whoever has the most copies wins? Good, i’ll go out and photocopy The Da Vinci Code until it becomes historically true! (I say there’s no difference between a scribe and a Xerox—except that a scribe is more susceptible to errors and forgery.) I don’t have Babble Fish in 19,000 languages but then i can’t quite bring myself to believe that you have either (especially since linguists only know of about 7000 languages). But if you wish to point me to a source, give me a non-Xian one, please. I’ve been burned enough by self-delusions and lies from Xian sources that i can no longer trust them. (And anonymous #71102T03 asks about anger?)

And “eyewitness accounts”? I stand in awe or your gullibility.

J.Spirit said...

Go, Stephanie, Go!!! Tell it like it is!
This religion expects a spouse to put up with all the crap the other can dish out and be satisfied that the other person will "get theirs" on judgement day. How laughable. It's the religion for suckers.

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