If you logically look at Christianity, it just doesn’t add up

Sent in by Anya

When I contemplate my journey through Christianity, I’m reminded of that old Rod Steward song that goes, “If I listened long enough to you, I’d find a way to believe that it’s all true.” More than anything in the world, I wish I could sincerely believe in Jesus or God, but at this point in time, intellectually and logically, there is no reason to believe.

I grew up in a household of lapsed Catholics. They taught me how to pray and we went to church occasionally, but my parents warned that the Bible wasn’t meant to be taken literally. My mom also used to dabble in astrology and even consulted psychics on occasion. Even though I lacked solid religious structure, I always wanted God to be a close part of my life. Before tests and competitions I would pray to the Almighty to help me win. Sometimes it worked, sometimes not. There were times when I experienced such amazing coincidences that I was sure I was getting signs from the Almighty.

In high school I had a boyfriend who was interested in fundamentalist Christianity. The Christians I got to know through him were truly wonderful people, willing to drop anything to help you out. They seemed to exemplify the true spirit of Christ. Of course, there were others that were arrogant and judgmental, but I dismissed them as not being “true Christians”. I also attended Catholic schools for a few years and had many positive experiences with the priests and nuns. I have no sour grapes.

Over the years I continued to identify myself as Christian although I rarely went to church. I still maintained an active prayer life and felt that God was always with me and would protect me and bring me to heaven. To be honest, most of the time I was more worried about my looks, boys, friends, and school, but my underlying belief in the Lord gave me peace of mind. Of course I had been taught about science and evolution but I found ways to rationalize this as being consistent with a Christian God.

This past summer I had what you might call a nervous breakdown and had to be hospitalized for almost a week. For awhile I totally lost touch with reality. I believed all sorts of things that I now recognize are not true. Among those thoughts was a belief that Jesus was coming down from heaven to take me as his bride. This was based on something I read in the book of Revelations. Obviously, this didn’t happen, although I strongly believed it at the time and even thought I had evidence to justify my expectations. Once my mind straightened out, I was left to wonder if some of the most basic religious ideas that I had might not be true either.

It was while studying for the Law School Admission Test that I had an epiphany. Studying for the test taught me to think logically about everything, and that included religion. I started to realize that if you logically look at Christianity, it just doesn’t add up. If even the apostle’s questioned Jesus, how was I supposed to trust in him when all the evidence pointed against his being the son of God. Plus, to believe in Christ you must also take the Old Testament as being true and that book didn’t hold up to scrutiny either. If this is the God that created the universe, then he also created science, logic, and reason. Why would this God want us to believe in him based on hearsay? There were numerous other questions that Christianity couldn’t answer.

I wish Christianity was true. I wish there was a benevolent God looking out for us who would listen to our prayers. Not having God in my life has left me feeling empty and depressed. I have gone from feeling like an immortal being made in the likeness of God to simply an evolved monkey, nothing more than a collection of cells, alone in the cruel world. This change in belief has certainly humbled me. The church can be so seductive, but in my heart I can no longer call myself a Christian. The decision to live in reality has not been an easy or happy one.

460 comments:

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boomSLANG said...

Negrosan's back:

... you attempt to "prove" my faith false, but your argument is invalid because it commits the fallacy of "Guilt by Association".

Dear Negro'(and all people of "Faith"),

Once more, one CANNOT "prove" someone's "Faith" false. One cannot "prove" that a child's invisible friend---a friend who this child may claim to talk to, and play with regularly---does not exist. Now, the "fallacy" is to claim that because one cannot "prove" another's "faith" false, then said "faith" MUST BE true, by default. Wrong. Again, where faith is concerned---especially as our guest christian describes it---ANYTHING is "possible". However, possible, and likely, are two entirely different things. This is why, if the "Faithful" are intent on non-believers seeing THEIR "faith" as Universal/Objective "Truth", then they MUST PROVIDE EVIDENCE to that end. Speaking of....'got any? Oh yeah, wait...you're the Christian who actually admits they don't have any evidence. Okay...bye, now.

boomSLANG said...

More from Negrosan: I propose that the only way to break the deadlock is for an outside party from that "unknown" to reveal it. I propose that party is no other than God Himself.

In theory, that sounds reasonable enough. Okay then, so maybe the All Mighty Allah will oblige us? Or maybe Quetzacoatl? Until then, you are committing the bare assertion fallacy, a type of non-seqitur...e.g..if "A" is true, then "B" is true....or, if "God" exists, then that "God" is none other than the Christian biblegod, "Yahweh". Bzzzzzt! Try again.

Jim Arvo said...

NegroSan,

I have very specific replies to your comments, but I'm going to hold off on that. I think I may understand the impasse we keep bumping into, and it's a common one. I'd like to address that first if I may. Please consider the following proposition:

On Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 8:37 AM Pacific time, the Webmaster of this site (Dave) has exactly 17 cents in the right front pocket of his pants.

It's a silly inconsequential proposition, but bear with me. Before you read one more sentence of this post, please consider whether you believe the above proposition to be true or false, and why.

Now, please consider how you would regard the above proposition in the following hypothetical scenarios, and please assume that all statements are made truthfully. Suppose I told you that...

1) I just made it up.

2) I learned of it through my Ouija board.

3) The number 17 popped into my head, and since 17 is prime, it must have some significance. I concluded that it must be the amount of money in Dave's front right pocket.

4) I just spoke to Dave this morning on the phone, and he told me that he found a dime, a nickel, and two pennies in his front right pocket.

5) I just spoke to Dave this morning on the phone, and he told me that he just paid for some groceries with his last ten dollar bill, and $9.83 was the charge.

There is nothing tricky about these. I think everyone will agree that reasons 1, 2, and 3 are nonsense, while numbers 4 and 5 constitute reasonable evidence for the proposition. But here is my question to you. In each case, what would be your position regarding the proposition? Would you deem it true or false, or perhaps something in between?

Here is the point of this exercise. I hope you answered my first question by saying that you had no idea one way or the other, so deeming it true or false would be pointless. But if I gave you explanations 1, 2, or 3, would that change your position? Could you deem the proposition true or false in any of those cases?

Here is what I'm hoping we can agree upon before getting back to the original discussion: Asserting that there is no good reason to deem a proposition TRUE is not the same as deeming it FALSE.

In case the point is not plainly evident, let me drive it home. In scenarios 1, 2, and 3, you would rightly regard my explanation as shedding no light whatsoever on the proposition, so it would go no distance toward convincing you it is true. But at the same time, there is no reason to think that the proposition is false either, since Dave could easily have 17 cents in his pocket. Right?

Can we agree?

boomSLANG said...

Pardon the previous misspelling of "non-sequitur".

alanh said...

Dan Marvin wrote:

Ask God to speak to you and to guide you into His will.


a couple of Christians posted some ways God speaks to them.

(list of 16 items follows)

Passerby wrote:

they know when God is speaking.

NegroSan wrote:

Because Santa did not speak to my heart as Christ did, that's why

from Dan Marvin's Christian forum:

Does God Speak To Us Apart From The Bible?

ANSWER: No.



Can you make this stuff up as you go along?

ANSWER: Yes

AtheistToothFairy said...

For Negrosan and Jim Arvo

Well it's now Turkey-Day, but I bet the Turkey isn't very Thankful about it.

Okay, so down to business.

ATF asked of Jim Arvo "...is Negrosan correct in that we can't compare his unique god belief with my example beliefs of Aliens, Astrology, Astral Travels etc.,..."

Jim Arvo replied:
Let's first try to understand NegroSan's statement about the "argument" making no sense. What "argument" is he referring to? I suspect that perceives you to be arguing something that you are not; something like "Because all these things are crazy, so is your belief."


Firstly, thank you Jim for replying with your 'sanity check' on my proposed argument.


NegroSan and Jim,

NegroSan wrote:
In truth, ATF's argument is misses the obvious; that there COULD be one that is valid - even if we don't "know" which one that is. Lack of evidence is not proof of lack.


While all those items in my list may seem very far-fetched to ME, if someone came along with substantial proof for say one of them, then I would reconsider that ONE on it's own merit.
In some cases, finding one valid might even make me look closer at any others that might be related.
ex. Astral Traveling being in the same possible realm as ESP, or frequent Alien visits leading to the idea of aliens doing surgery on humans.

The point I was making was NOT about trying to say (in this case, for Negrosan) that all these things are related by some universal supernatural association, where one could tie them all into one "poison well'", such that either they are all true or all false etc..

The whole point of my argument is that so far none of these things have verifiable evidence to proclaim them as being valid, so to believe in any of them would require some amount of FAITH, just as I feel that a belief in the xtian god falls into this same faith category.
There is no better evidence for the existence of the xtian god, than there is for any of these other supernatural beliefs that some folks maintain (or even live by).

They all take a lot of FAITH, was the whole point here.
Thus, if they all take some sort of [blind] faith to buy into them, then what distinguishes a belief in a supernatural god versus any other supernatural belief.

This is not to say that if faith in one is proven to be misguided, that faith in all would be automatically misguided.
Conversly, if the faith in one if found justified, then one can't just assume the rest are also justified to be worthy.

They all must stand on their own 'two feet', so to speak.

NegroSan said "...ATF, you attempt to 'prove' my faith false,..."

No Negrosan, the idea here was to make you question how MUCH FAITH it would take YOU to believe in ANY of these other things. If none of these things have had any good evidence to support them (as my question clearly stated each time), then in order for YOU to believe they are true, would it take a little faith or a whole lot of faith?

If you find that most of them would take alot of faith in order to believe them, then how do we then quantify the amount of faith it takes for YOU to have a belief in the xtian god.
If you agree that none of the items in my list have enough credible evidence to buy into them with just a tiny bit of faith, then I would want to know what makes you buy into the xtian god theory, knowing it also has very little credible evidence to support it.

Does it take a lot of faith or a little faith, to buy into this xtian god?
If it takes a lot of faith, then what makes you such a believer in this god being real, if you wouldn't buy into some of these other things I cited so easily?

On the other hand, if you buy into most of the things I cited with only a little faith necessary, well, then we are on a much different playing ground here.
In that case, I would have to conclude that you would buy into almost anything with a supernatural origin without needing much faith in order to do so, which would mean buying into your supernatural god would also take a minute amount of faith as well, one would suppose.


>ATF: Why doesn't Jesus appear in a church on a Sunday morning to all his xtian followers?

Negrosan said: Because we Christians are called to walk by faith. Our "Holy Books" tell us that all over the place. There is a time for faith and there is a time when we will finally behold. And we await with patience for that day.

Okay, now it's my turn to turn those table around here on your answer.

Let's assume for a moment, that your belief is unwarranted, because the bible is nothing but fiction and it's writers were either lying or misguided in their beliefs, and they knew if one were to seek true evidence, that the whole proposition of god could easily fall apart.

Wouldn't it then make good sense for them to INSIST that one believe's just on FAITH ALONE and to convince the faithful to never to ask for anything beyond that faith?

If one wanted to form a religious sect and wanted to keep their followers in-the-dark like sheep, then it makes darn good sense that a way be found to stop inquiring minds from looking too closely at the creed.
What better way to accomplish this than convince one's followers that the whole thing only works if one follows along, using only pure faith alone and not the mind.

How many oddball religious sects have we seen in the past few decades that use this very tactic to keep their sheep from leaving the fold.
The Moonies were infamous for doing just this sort of thing, having their sheep even give up their heathen family and friends in order to hang onto their fold.

If a god follower is never allowed to use their heads in order to form that god belief, then how can one ever really know if one is following the right sect, or for that matter, even following around a god who requires zero proof to substantiate his existence.

This is no different than those who require minimal evidence to form other beliefs of the supernatural. They believe because either they wish to or they had some experience that they FELT was proof of that supernatural thing, but in reality, they have no real evidence that would ever stand up on it's own, if one were to remove that faith factor from it.

I have to admit, the bible writers were smart in this one regard.
They found a way to force their sheep never to question them or their god, by insisting they could never know this god if they lost their faith.

If a god were real and really gave a damn about us humans, I'm very sure he would never ask his children to believe in him with faith alone and he would also never torment his child in some eternal hell just because they couldn't find this blind faith to believe, without having at least some decent circumstantial evidence to back up that faith.

The whole concept of faith being the **primary** deciding factor in this god's rule book, clearly would indicate that this wonderful god is only looking for mindless sheep for his great family.

That would then say that anyone with a critical analytical mind, has to also be a person that this god fears having around him, so he solves this threat problem by casting them into the great fire.

Ask yourself this perhaps.

Why would god punish for all eternity, a person who led a good life and the only fault this person had was that they just couldn't buy into god really being there because god himself decided he would refuse to hand over any proof of his existence.
So a good person burns forever because of this inherent trait they have, where their makeup doesn't allow them to believe in something so extraordinary without a single piece of credible evidence to back it up.

On the other hand, an truly evil minded person who has lived a horrid life, only has to develop faith in this god at some point, and this person gets the wonderful reward of heaven.

Can you not see the great injustice in all this hyperbole?

Can you not see that any real god would never punish a soul for having an **inherited** trait of being very inquisitive and/or critical, but not being the type to just believe blindly in any supernatural idea that comes along on this planet.

Why on heaven and earth would a great god (who has been around forever and created everything we see), ever desire nothing but mindless sheep to keep him company for all eternity?

I don't believe you are thinking things out into the distant future here.

Time won't stop after we all land up in heaven or hell, so what do you think your god would have in mind for us to be doing for all eternity.
Do you think the xtians will all just by laying around, playing their harps?

If your god is a reality, it would make far more sense to have plans to expand his human population into the far reaches of the universe and set up new 'colonies'.
Who would be better at that task....Sheepish souls, or souls with inquisitive thinking demeanors......You tell me.

Forget for two tiny minutes what your darn bible is telling you and USE YOUR HEAD!!



ATF (who thinks Negrosan could see the truth of the universe, if only he'd step away from that bible myth book for a little bit)


P.S. This post was NOT written by Satan....just in case someone thought so...LOL

Bill said...

Negrosan

To what end did the people publish a collection of history and letter called the bible.

The answer is obvious. To believe in something that gave them hope and purpose. It also gave them stature and power. People write things for all kinds of reasons. Look at Ezekiel chapter 23 vs. 20. Weird shit. Explain why God breathed His spirit into the author of that chapter????

Yes, your thinking is foolish as was mine when I was a christian.

Bill said...

Negrosan

To what end did the people publish a collection of history and letter called the bible.

The answer is obvious. To believe in something that gave them hope and purpose. It also gave them stature and power. People write things for all kinds of reasons. Look at Ezekiel chapter 23 vs. 20. Weird shit. Explain why God breathed His spirit into the author of that chapter????

Yes, your thinking is foolish as was mine when I was a christian.

Dan Marvin said...

ATF: "Can you not see that any real god would never punish a soul for having an **inherited** trait of being very inquisitive and/or critical, but not being the type to just believe blindly in any supernatural idea that comes along on this planet."

Are you are just being difficult here? Just because people are inquisitive does not mean punishment. You will spend eternity in hell because you broke God's Laws. You will be without excuses on Judgment Day.

Romans 3:19-28 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Try that in court Judge 'I know I raped that woman but I am a very inquisitive person so I will be on my way.' Your in big trouble on that awful day of Judgment. What are you going to do?

Let's go through all His commandments to see if you broke any.

"1. "You shall have no other gods before Me."

Is God first in your life? Do you love God above all else? Many years ago, I purchased a T.V. for our children, but the first evening we had it, I arrived home from work and found that they didn't even bother to greet me. They were too busy watching television. I turned it off and explained to them that if they ignored me because they preferred to watch T.V. they were setting their love on the gift rather then the giver, a wrong order of affections. In the same way, if we love anything—husband, wife, children or even our own lives—more than we love God, we are setting our affection on the gift rather than the Giver, which is a transgression of the First Commandment. In fact, the Bible says that we should so love God that our love for Mom and Dad and brother and sister should seem like hatred compared to the love we have for the God who gave those loved ones to us.

We are also commanded to love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. Jesus spoke of a Samaritan who found an injured stranger, bathed his wounds, carried him to an inn, gave money for his care and told the inn-keeper that he would pay for his expenses. We call him the good Samaritan, but in reality he wasn't "good" at all, he merely obeyed the basic command to love his neighbor as himself. That is a picture of how God expects us to love our fellow human beings. We should love them as much as we love ourselves...whether they be friend or foe.

Have you loved God with all your heart? Have you loved humanity as much as you love yourself? You be the judge. Will you be innocent or guilty on Judgment Day of breaking that Commandment? I'm not judging you—I'm asking you to judge yourself before the Day of Judgment. The sentence for breaking this Commandment is death.

2. "You shall not make for yourself any graven image."

This means that we shouldn't make a god to suit ourselves, either with our hands or our mind. I was guilty of this. I made a god to suit myself. My god didn't mind a "white" lie or a fib here and there—in fact, he didn't exist. He was a figment of my imagination, an "image" which I shaped to suit myself. Is your God the One revealed in Holy Scripture? If not, then you have made your own god to suit yourself—you have committed the oldest sin in the Book. Scripture warns that no idolater will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

3. "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain."

Have you ever taken God's name in vain—instead of using a four-letter word to express disgust, you've used His name? Hitler's name wasn't despised enough to use as a curse word. If you have used His holy name in that manner, you are a blasphemer and will not enter the Kingdom of God.

4. "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy."

I ignored this command for 22 years. Even though God gave me the gift of life, never once did I ask what He required of me. I was guilty of breaking this Commandment.

5. "Honor your father and your mother."

Have you always honored your parents in a way that's pleasing in the sight of God? Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. You may have forgotten them, but God hasn't.

6. "You shall not murder."

Jesus warned that if we get angry without cause we are in danger of judgment. If we hate our brother, God calls us a murderer. We can violate God's Law by attitude and intent.

7. "You shall not commit adultery."

Who of us can say that we are pure of heart? Jesus warned, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart." Remember that God has seen every thought you have had and every sin you have ever committed. The day will come when you have to face His Law, and we are told that the impure, fornicators (those who have sex before marriage) and adulterers will not enter the Kingdom of God. Punishment for transgression of this Commandment is the death penalty.

8. "You shall not steal."

Have you ever taken something that belonged to someone else (irrespective of its value)? Then you are a thief—you cannot enter God's Kingdom.

9. "You shall not bear false witness."

Have you ever told a lie? Then you are a liar. How many lies do you have to tell to be a liar? Just one. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin. God does!

10. "You shall not covet."

That means we shouldn't desire anything that belongs to another person. The covetous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments? All of us have sinned, and just as with civil law, you don't have to break ten laws to be a lawbreaker, so the Bible warns, "For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."

A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day.

This may sound strange, but the worst thing you could do at this point of time is to try and clean up your lifestyle—you realize that you have sinned, so from now on you will keep the Ten Commandments, do good deeds, say the right things and think only pure thoughts. But should a judge let a murderer go because he says he will now live a good life? No, he's in debt to justice and therefore must be punished." (Are you good enough)

You are already guilty and deserve God's wrath what are you going to do? Turn to Jesus and plead for mercy and understand what he did on the cross for you.

ATF "Why on heaven and earth would a great god (who has been around forever and created everything we see), ever desire nothing but mindless sheep to keep him company for all eternity?"

I answered this before already remember? At the time the subject was free will:

Look he gave us free will to chose to be with him or not. I just don't know if there even will be free will in heaven. I know we won't want to leave and be tempted to leave. We can appreciate Gods goodness in the presence of evil. Unlike Adam who didn't know evil, Satan who didn't know evil, until they fell. We do! Because of it, we so appreciate his goodness and no matter what temptation that will come our way in heaven, if that could even happen, there would be no way, why? Because we knew how horrible evil was and now we can fully appreciate his goodness.

The presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his righteousness, the presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his love, and how else could he show the character of love that loves enemies and sinners if there were none? God endures this horrible assault on his everlasting holiness; he endures the horrifying blaspheming, history of fallen beings, he suffers it, the imposition it is on his purity to display his wrath to the fullest extent, to put himself on everlasting display.

Why are we here? What is the theological answer? To give the text book answer, to glorify God and enjoy him ever more. How do you glorify God? Here is how, you sinner, go get saved. Get saved so God can be glorified, that's it; this is the purpose of this entire universe.

God knew we would sin, He knew we would rebel, He knew we would introduce evil, He knew it. So that he can send forth a savior born of a virgin, to live under the law to save us under the curse of the law so that, we can be a little trophy of his grace, he can always point to us as a testimony to his goodness. Ephesians 2:7

We wouldn't know how God is righteous as he is, everlastingly, and give him glory for it if it hadn't had of been for unrighteousness, we wouldn't know he's loving as he is if it hadn't been for sin, we wouldn't know he's holy if it weren't for judgment.

How holy is God? So holy that he must send out of his presence, everlastingly, anyone who is not fit. Why of all this? That he might make known the riches of his glory, that is, he did all of this in order that he might gather into heaven a redeemed humanity who would forever glorify him for all that he is. * Todd Friel

For you viewing pleasure: WOTM, season 3 promo

Look the last thing I wanted to do is argue here mainly because of what it says in 2 timothy 2:23-26 "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

I did want to help you all in your walk with God. Farewell all of you and I feel blessed by all of our conversations and may God touch all your hearts. Stay in the faith for those of you who are saved (your fruit shows you are) but let's not get caught up in these arguements here at these websites. I have learned quite a bit by witnessing to these people and I am very thankful for all of you. Have a great year all!

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan Marvin wrote, "Why are we here? What is the theological answer? To give the text book answer, to glorify God and enjoy him ever more.

Dan, that's not in the Bible. You just quoted from the historic catechisms written by the Catholic Church and adopted by the no-free-will-predestination Calvinist reformers.

You're head is full of a mishmash of ignorant self-contradictory nonsense. I wish you the good fortune of one day recapturing the ability to think rationally and escaping the delusional prison of dogmatic mythology.

But I won't hold my breath on that.

Goodbye.

Jim Arvo said...

Dan, you disappoint me. For a while there it looked like you actually wanted to have dialog. Now you are back to longwinded preaching and condescension. Too bad. Maybe in the privacy of your own mind you will allow yourself to seriously consider some of the things we've discussed here, and allow yourself to ask some tough questions. Questions are good, Dan. They allow you to grow, and sometimes to recognize erroneous beliefs. Good luck to you.

boomSLANG said...

Dan Marvin makes his exit, with yet, one more of his apologetic rants....

ATF asks Marvin: "Can you not see that any real god would never punish a soul for having an **inherited** trait of being very inquisitive and/or critical, but not being the type to just believe blindly in any supernatural idea that comes along on this planet."

ATF seems to be asking(he can correct me if I'm wrong), how and why, if a perfect, omniscient "God" exists, would said "God" have a problem with people being skeptical of it's existence, when said "God" presumably "designed" his creation with the supposed FREE WILL to doubt, KNOWING in advance, that many, if not most of them, would doubt. 'Close, ATF?

In any event, Marvin responds to ATF:

Are you are just being difficult here?

'Anyone, but me, ever notice when people point out the obvious circularity, and/or, the blatant contradictions, and/or, the logical fallacies of Marvin's statements, that he instantly accuses that person of being "difficult"?? This is the third or forth time I've seen him do this. It seems that when his regurgitated "cookie-cutter" apologetics fail to make non-believers drop to their knees and do a 180 degree turn back to "the flock", his only other resort is to accuse people of being "difficult".

No, Marvin(if you're reading), it's not that we're being "difficult"....it's that the beliefs that you were brainwashed with are senseless to any critically *thinking* person. But for sake of argument, even *IF* your bible was true, and your biblegod a reality, said "God" GAVE US "FREE WILL", and thus, that includes the will to "doubt"/question. Can't you see that "He" created, and THUS, could have prevented the very problem "He" seeks to be solved?(rhetorical)

Marvin continues...Just because people are inquisitive does not mean punishment.

Once more, equivocation on the part of Dan Marvin. To be "inquisitive" is to challenge "Faith". According to Marvin's holy book, if one does not have "Faith"..i.e..if one does not believe without evidence in the Christian biblegod, they will "perish". I'll be happy to provide the exact bible verse.(but hopefully that won't be necessary now that he's "gone")

So then, according to Marvin's holy book, if we cannot bring ourselves to believe in his illusive invisible biblegod, it appears as though we have a choice between "perishing", and the "lake-o-fire", then?(rhetorical)

Marvin chirps(again)...You will spend eternity in hell because you broke God's Laws. You will be without excuses on Judgment Day.

Not to be redundant, but I'm quite sure Marvin has zero evidence for this hypothesis, other than his holy handbook, and we've established umpteen times that a source cannot be its own evidence----and thus, in the end, Marvin walks away with nothing but a "belief".

Buh-bye Marvin....may you one day discover reason.

stronger now said...

"Oh Danny Boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling....ect..ect..


I hope it sticks this time.

I liked the shorter version of Pascal's wager better. I didn't have to wade thru all that drivel when he just said "(Insert Pascal's wager here)".

AtheistToothFairy said...

Dan Marvin wrote:
ATF: "Can you not see that any real god would never punish a soul for having an **inherited** trait of being very inquisitive and/or critical, but not being the type to just believe blindly in any supernatural idea that comes along on this planet."

Are you are just being difficult here? Just because people are inquisitive does not mean punishment. You will spend eternity in hell because you broke God's Laws. You will be without excuses on Judgment Day

----
Oh Danny-Boy,
First off, you owe me two aspirin, for the headache your sickening god preaching just gave me!!
Oh never mind, I'll just ask your god to fix my god-caused headache...LOL.

I'm not being "difficult here" as I like to leave the great many 'difficulties' of YOUR life, to reside within the pages of your own errant bible.

I would have to differ with your idea here on being inquisitive/critical.
If one uses those traits to assure themselves that any god is real, then one most times will surely discover that your bible god is a mere myth.

Therefore, either your god made it impossible for a inquisitive/critical mind to realize his existence, or your god simply doesn't exist at all.
In the latter case, you are wasting your life by living out a myth.
In the former case, your god screwed up royally by giving SOME a working brain that knows how to seek evidence for any proposed truth in life.

Either way, I have nothing to lose by 'breaking god's laws', because if there is a xtain god, then it's all HIS FAULT for playing this hide&seek game so well with his human pets.

Oh and by the way, the word SIN does not exists in my dictionary.
As far as I'm concerned Dan, there is no such thing as SIN, for that assumes there is a god to sin against and we have no reason to believe in any gods, including your personal one.

You also need to reevaluate your list of the 10 commandments, as it's possible you chose the wrong set to believe is the latest and greatest.


ATF (who wonders why we don't have those two stone tablets today from god's finger)

AtheistToothFairy said...

boomSLANG said...
ATF seems to be asking(he can correct me if I'm wrong), how and why, if a perfect, omniscient "God" exists, would said "God" have a problem with people being skeptical of it's existence, when said "God" presumably "designed" his creation with the supposed FREE WILL to doubt, KNOWING in advance, that many, if not most of them, would doubt. 'Close, ATF?
----
Boom',
Yes Boom', that's pretty much it.
I wasn't really talking so much about free will, as I was about having the intelligence to form conclusions based on evidence-- or lack thereof.
I guess one also has to have the free will in conjunction with the IQ though.

The way I see it, is that if god didn't want ANY humans questioning his non-verifiable (hidden) existence, then he would have made sure no human brain would ever reach the intelligence quotient capable of recognizing this lack of crucial missing evidence.

It also means that one has to be able to recognize that any god worth his salt, wouldn't play this game of finding him, on emotional faith alone, but would at least provide a few solid clues that would automatically rule out a human conclusion of his non-existence.

Why would any god want a flock of humans that submitted to him because they were too 'weak' to realize they shouldn't believe in any johnny-come-lately god head that only has word-of-mouth evidence to make his existence known to us.

What a SHAME that the xtians like Dan, can't see thru the smoke and mirrors being used to brainwash their minds.

Boom, how much do you wanna bet that these fundies are also the very same people that continued to believe the Wizard of Oz really had all those great powers, even after Toto pulled the curtain on his act??


ATF (who is waiting for the rapture tornado to take all the fundies to the land of oz)

Passerby said...

Jim said- "Dan, you disappoint me. For a while there it looked like you actually wanted to have dialog. Now you are back to longwinded preaching and condescension."

Too bad for you Jim, that you actually believe that it's Dan that is being condescending. By the grace of God, he's relaying God's commandments and all you can do is view it as Dan's judgement.

Please people, listen to your hearts, it has nothing to do with a Christian's judgement, we are all sinners like you! The difference is that we agree with God's word and work with God to turn away from all temptations.

It has everything to do with God's judgement on you! Don't you see your own sinful nature?

God loves you so much that He's given you a way out, His son!

The reason we've posted here is because we were like you once, people that made their own rules and considered them "good". Until that day when God's Truth penetrated that shell around our hearts.

Through God's spirit, we hope for all of you. No Christian want you or anyone to suffer the greatest loss of all. To deny God is to walk head strong into destruction, why would any loving person let someone walk off a cliff!

Instead of focusing on God's law for a moment, maybe one of G.K. Chesterton's reasons why he's a Catholic can shed some light:
1) It {Christianity} is the only large attempt to change the world from the inside; working through wills and not laws.

Once you turn your will towards Him, His law will be the most reasonable thing in this world because it's founded on Love.

If you have ears to hear...

.:webmaster:. said...

Passerby,

You and Dan Marvin are to be pitied, and feared. You actually believe that the temporal sins of average human beings deserve everlasting torture in a horrific lake of fire.

You think torture is justified -- everlasting torture without with possibility of parole or rehabilitation. The everlasting torture is for the singular purpose of doling out retributive punishment.

And the crime? The crime? Not believing in the correct version of the one "true" mythology. Ultimately that's the crime.

However, Dan might argue that, "No, it is not the crime of unbelief that makes eternal torture just, it is the breaking of the Ten Commandments." But Dan would also argue that profaning the Sabbath doesn't count anymore, so we can go to a restaurant after church without guilt and we can work on Sunday, no problem.

So, if you've ever lied or stolen or masturbated or not honored your parents, etc., then you deserve to be tortured forever? I may live 100 years, and I just might think lustful thoughts every single day in that 100 years! Imagine the horror! And because I didn't get my head wrapped around the correct version of the right religion, I won't be tortured for 100 years or 1,000 years or 1 million years -- I'll be tortured for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...

And that is justice? That is sadistic. Torture is barbaric and to be condemned in EVERY situation. Threats of everlasting torture in a fiery hell is nothing more than the perverse delusions of sadistic power-mad religious cult leaders. How better to keep the faithful in line than threaten them with horror and fill their simple minds with fear?

The Christian god's idea of justice is archaic and primitive, just like the men who invented the Christian god. And anyone who proudly promotes sadism as justice is to be feared.

stronger now said...

Passerby:"Too bad for you Jim, that you actually believe that it's Dan that is being condescending."

Dan has shown his condescention towards us since he got here. I can point out several examples of this. It would seem that Jim is correct, considering Dan's past behavior here.

Why do you propose we "listen to our hearts"? Are these not the same lying wicked hearts that, according to Dan, all men have?

"...G.K. Chesterton's reasons why he's a Catholic can shed some light:
1) It {Christianity} is the only large attempt to change the world from the inside; working through wills and not laws"

This seems to me like a flat out, bold faced LIE!

One can easily substitute the word christianity with the word islam, buddhism, hinduism, and almost all other religions that seek to change peoples wills to make them behave a certain way. Any major religion that attempts to govern the human will, is just as apt to be guilty of such a statement.

Do you think at all before you use quotes such as that?

If you have a brain to think...

Passerby said...

WebMaster, you are thinking in human terms and forgetting that you cannot fully understand God.

If this is the only doctrine that stops you from agreeing with God's word, you should try to humble yourself and realize that you cannot understand God completely. None of us, in purely human terms, can understand eternal suffering. Instead, we Christians look at His goodness...His Love, His immense Mercy and from this we trust that His Justice is also good.

Have you ever done something you deeply regret to the point where in pains you in the heart because you know you hurt someone else? I think that rejecting God's love for a lifetime will likely leave a soul in that deep pain of the heart. Just a thought.

Really Stronger Now? Do you really believe that terrorist attacks are founded on Love and are working through wills and not laws? Please Stronger Now, try to understand that there are many false Christians in the world. If someone is working to present God's love to you by forcing you, they are not evangelizing with love for Love.

It starts in your heart. If you find that your heart is filled with hatred and anger when reflecting on God, know that this is NOT coming from God. If you ask Him for help in softening you, He is faithful to help someone with a sincere plea for goodness.

If your heart tells you that it's good and right to hate and you agree with these thoughts, you don't belong to God. No one that hates and agrees with his own hatred has God's spirit in him. The only thing we can hate is our sinful nature and if you hate your brother because of his sins, then you are forgetting your own sins.

Christians should be balanced between an overly frightful fear of God and an overly open view of God's Mercy. If you worry about every single thing you do for fear of God's punishment, something is wrong in your faith. If you think that you can do whatever you want and that your belief in Him will suffice, something is wrong in your faith. Balance between these two extremes is what we Christians seek and it will only come to those who put their faith in God's guidance. Without Him, I would crumble under the weight of the temptations of this world, with Him, I hope to never surrender to evil.

Peace.

.:webmaster:. said...

Passerby,

Read the following very slowly so your mind can absorb it: ALL OF US THINK IN HUMAN TERMS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL HUMAN.

You can claim all day long that you think other than human, but, unless you're from another planet, you're just a human like the rest of us.

As far as eternal retributive horror that is PROMISED and THREATENED by your ridiculous mythology, you can also claim all day long that your god's ways are not our ways, but it would be reasonable to assume that your god's ways would be superior to our ways. As it is, your god's ways are reflective of the primitive thinking of the primitive people who invented your god.

Now, I'm losing patience with you and your moronic repetitive droning. So, Marc, unblinded, troll, get lost.

Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, and Marc (Passerby), the good news is not about love -- it's about obedience. EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW!!!

Not, every knee shall be filled with squishy feelings. Your religion is about bloodshed, retribution, appeasing wrath, condemnation, hell, and horror.

Religious fanatics are scary. They see no problem with most of humanity being tortured for all eternity just because they don't belong to a particular cult. It's insane.

Jim Arvo said...

Marc said "Too bad for you Jim, that you actually believe that it's Dan that is being condescending."

To presume to speak for an all-powerful being is condescending, yes. If you disagree, please look up the word condescsension.

Marc: "...The difference is that we agree with God's word..."

The difference is that you assume there is such a being. You cannot acknowledge even that? After all these exchanges, you still cannot acknowledge the most fundamental presupposition that separates us? This is why I've generally had no interest in talking to you, Marc. It's pointless if you cannot grasp any position but your own. (For some reason I was inspired to give it a go, even though I strongly suspected it was you skulking behind yet another pseudonym. Why can you not honestly present yourself, Marc? Why the dishonesty?)

Marc: "The reason we've posted here is because we were like you once, people that made their own rules and considered them 'good'...."

Please don't speak for anybody but yourself. I've politely asked you that numerous times. You are not a judge of other people's thoughts/feelings/hearts, are you? By the way, erecting insulting straw men cannot possibly further your cause. I'm surprised you have not figured that out.

Marc: "Through God's spirit, we hope for all of you...."

And we hope that you can one day allow yourself to question your beliefs.

Marc: "....why would any loving person let someone walk off a cliff!"

We've tried our best to help you, Marc, but you just keep heading toward that cliff. At some point we must simply let you go. Sorry, but there's only so much we can do.

Marc: "Once you turn your will towards Him, His law will be the most reasonable thing in this world because it's founded on Love."

Your religion is gruesome, Marc. It's morbidly centered on blood, death, torture, and retribution, as Dave has pointed out numerous times. Sure, you can find some lovely sentiments and some beautiful poetry in the Bible. It's all the hate I have a hard time swallowing (in addition to the unsupported fantastic claims, contradictions, and absurdities). Reasonable, rational, and compassionate people stand up to hate, Marc. Not just when it's convenient, or when it serves one's ideological purposes, but always.

Have you the integrity to stick to one pseudonym, Marc? Or is deception okay so long as it's in the service of your god?

stronger now said...

"Do you really believe that terrorist attacks are founded on Love and are working through wills and not laws?"

What on earth are you talking about? The statement you quoted made a false claim. It was a lie. It said nothing about love. It was referring to a religion. Love is love and is seperate from religion, as it is a human emotion expressed thru action.

You are reading more into what I wrote to impung my character. It does imply a lack of understanding and bigotry on your part to assume that the terrorist attacks were carried out by "TRUE" islamics, forgetting that the witch burnings were carried out by "TRUE" christians.

Were the witch trials and subsequent tortures/burnings, acts of love?

No, they were an act of stupidity and religious zealotry. Just as the terrorist attacks were.

The attacks did try and change peoples wills using threats and actions of horrific terror to persuade peoples of other belief systems to accept islam and islamic rule.

Much like you try to do with the implicit threats of hell and damnation. So in that respect the islamic terrorists and you have much more in common than they and I.(keep that in mind)

".. if you hate your brother because of his sins, then you are forgetting your own sins."

I would have to believe in a god to think that I could "sin". I have seen no credible evidence to believe in any god. Do you have any?

I do not hate my brother. I do not love him either. Next time you bring him up, you had better have a good reason to. It's a subject you probably do not want to get into, unless you have a solid understanding of it.(you don't, no-one on this website does, even after reading my testamonial)

Marc, unless you have some credible evidence for a god, then some more credible evidence for YOUR god, I suggest you leave now and not come back 'till you have some.

Jesus said...

- if the earth will shake and wither under their very eyes it will be because they have transgressed My Law which is based on Love; they have violated all My Commandments; in spite of the multiple intercessions of your Holy Mother and in spite of My Warnings, from the time in Fatima to this epoch, none of My Warnings have been respected;

the hours are fleeing and a mighty host such as the world has never seen, nor will ever see again is at hand! few men will be left; how I shout to break through your deafness! a nation roaring like the roar of many waters will flood the world again, with fire and brimstone; I am rich in forgiving, but I hardly hear any cry of repentance;

oh men of little faith! men of arguments only!

write: all I hear except from only a remnant is: "why should we have to believe in messages? why should we fast since these are not from Him? why do penance since we are righteous? why should we believe this frenzied lot? do not listen for they retail visions and prophecies of their own"; I tell you truly, when that Day comes it would have been preferable you were never born! it takes only one man to blow a fire to produce any heat;

today again a man is among you living under the same skies who is ready to blow a Fire that can burn and melt all elements within a matter of seconds! the earth, like a garment will wear out; I had warned you, but you payed no heed; My suffering is great but how else am I to expel the merchants from within My Church? how am I to throw out the vipers from their nests inside My Sanctuary if I am not to come with Flame and a Blazing Fire? traders, merchants, the lot will be extirpated and this could be done only by Fire!

the sages will boast no more of their wisdom nor of their authority; the rich in spirit will be laid barren and naked and they will mourn; they will look for Me but where they look they will not find Me; they will invoke My Name again and again but I shall not hear them; I shall overthrow the lot

Jesus said...

evangelize with love for Love; tell them that I love each one of them in a special way; tell them also that I am not a complicated God; I am not far I am present at this very moment; tell them how I long for their love; show them what the Lord's Heart is; tell them that the Lord's Heart is nothing else but Love and Mercy and if Justice is brought down upon you it is because of the graveness of your sins and crimes; how many times I overlook all that you do not do in My favour and how many times I kept away the Father's Hand from falling upon you!

Jesus is My Name and Jesus means Saviour; I am the Saviour of all mankind

Jim Arvo said...

Marc think he's Jesus now...

Good grief.

JESUS said...

Don't listen to this heathen who calls himself by MY holy name. He is an imposter, the antichrist and not worth a plug nickel! In fact he is being written down in the book of stupidity for speaking as if he knew what I was thinking. What I am really thinking is: "I can't wait till Marc dies 'cause he is a pain in the ass."
So sayeth the ME!

stronger now said...

Marc has done this before. I think his meds are wearing off.

Jesus said...

O Jerusalem! {That is: O generation!} turn your eyes to the east and to the west; turn your eyes to the north and to the south and I Am there! I tell you truly that once more My Spirit will be poured on you and My Image will be spread across the face of the world; what I have planned shall happen and what I have told you shall be fulfilled; come close to Me and listen carefully: today I come all the way to your doorstep holding the banner of Peace; I am coming to save you Jerusalem, on it is written: Faithful and True, {Ap. 19:11} the King of kings and the Lord of lords; {Ap. 19:16} will I hear from you Jerusalem: "My King, it is You that I have to worship", or will you still be unaware of He who offers you His Peace .... now? will you in these last days before the Day of Retribution recognize My Holy Spirit who descended from above in all His Glory to make house with you? during your whole lifetime, generation, you flouted My Law and turned away, rebelling; are you ever going to be prepared to meet Me, your God? I am soon going to pass through your City!{That is, through us. We are cities.} and it will be sooner than you think! these will be My last warnings; I solemnly tell you:

wake up from your deep sleep!
you are heading for your ruin,
shake off the dust that covers you
and rise from the dead,
The End of Times{The End of Times is NOT the End of the world, it is the end of an epoch.}
is nearer than you think;

1) soon, very soon, I shall suddenly open My Sanctuary in Heaven and there, your eyes unveiled, you will perceive, like a secret revelation: myriads of Angels, Thrones, Dominations, Sovereignties, Powers, all prostrated around

The Ark of the Covenant;

then, a Breath will slide over your face, and the Powers of Heaven will shake, flashes of lightning will be followed by peals of thunder; "suddenly upon you will come a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came to existence;" {Dn. 12:1} for I will allow your soul to perceive all the events of your lifetime; I will unfold them one after the other; to the great dismay of your soul, you will realize how much innocent blood your sins shed, from victim souls;

I will then make your soul aware to see how you had never been following My Law; like an unrolled scroll, I will open The Ark of The Covenant and make you conscious of your lawlessness;

2) if you would still be alive and standing on your feet, the eyes of your soul will behold a dazzling Light, like the glitter of many precious stones; like the sparks of crystal-clear diamonds, a Light so pure and so bright that although myriads of angels would be standing nearby, in Silence, you will not see them completely, because this Light will be covering them like a silverish golden dust, your soul will only perceive their form, not their face; then, in the midst of this dazzling Light, your soul will see what they had once seen in that fraction of a second, that very moment of your creation ....

they will see:
He who held you first in His Hands;
The Eyes that saw you first;

they will see:
The Hands of He who shaped you
and blessed you ....

they will see:
The Most Tender Father, your Creator
all clothed in fearful splendour,
the First and the Last,
He who is, who was, and
is to come,
The Almighty,
The Alpha and the Omega:
The Ruler;

shrivelled with your awakening, your eyes will be transfixed in Mine which will be like two Flames of Fire{Ap. 19:12} your heart then will look back on its sins and will be seized with remorse; you will, in great distress and agony suffer your lawlessness, realizing how you were constantly profaning My Holy Name and how you were rejecting Me, your Father .... panic-stricken, you will tremble and shudder when you will see yourself as a decaying corpse, devastated by worm and by vulture;

3) and if your legs will still be holding you up, I will show you what your soul, My Temple and My Dwelling was nursing all the years of your life; instead of My Perpetual Sacrifice you will see to your dismay, that you were fondling The Viper and that you had erected this Disastrous Abomination of which the prophet Daniel spoke, in the most profound domain of your soul;

The Blasphemy;

The Blasphemy, that cut off all your heavenly bonds linking you to Me and making a gulf between you and Me, your God;

- when this Day comes, the scales of your eyes will fall, so that you may perceive how naked you are and how within you, you are a land of drought .... unhappy creature, your rebellion and your denial of The Most Holy Trinity turned you into a renegade and persecutor of My Word;

- your laments and your wailing will be heard only by you then; I tell you: you will mourn and you will weep, but your laments will only be heard by your own ears;

- I can only judge as I am told to judge and My judging will be just; as it was in Noah's time, so will it be when I will open the Heavens and show you The Ark of the Covenant; "for in those days before the Flood, people were eating, drinking, taking wives, taking husbands, right up to the day Noah went into the ark, and they suspected nothing till the Flood came and swept all away"; {Mt. 24: 38-39} this is how it will be in this Day too; and I tell you, if that time had not been shortened by the intercession of your Holy Mother, the martyr saints and the pool of blood shed on earth, from Abel the Holy to the blood of all My prophets, not one of you would have survived!

I, your God, am sending angel after angel to announce that My Time of Mercy is running short and that the Time of My Rein on earth is close at hand; I am sending My angels to witness of My Love "to all who live on earth, every nation, race, language and tribe"; {Ap. 14:6} I am sending them out as apostles of the last days to announce that: "the Kingdom of the world would become like My Kingdom of above and that My Spirit will reign for ever and ever" {Ap. 11:15} in your midst; I am sending My servants the prophets to cry out in this wilderness that you should:

"Fear Me and praise Me
because the Time has come
for Me to sit in judgement!"{Ap. 14:7}

My Kingdom will come suddenly upon you, this is why you must have constancy and faith till the end; -

- My child, pray for the sinner who is
unaware of his decay;
pray and ask the Father to forgive
the crimes the world ceaselessly commits;
pray for the conversion of souls,
pray for Peace

stronger now said...

Well. That's nuts.

boomSLANG said...

"Yahweh" wrote(typed):

I, your God, am sending angel after angel to announce that My Time of Mercy is running short and that the Time of My Rein on earth is close at hand.

Hello, Jebus? Beggin' your pardon....but did you mean to say your "Rein on Earth"?...or, your "Reign on Earth"? 'Two different meanings, your Highness.

(I love it! ... no wonder Christians can't agree on what "He" says. LMAO!)

Jesus said...

Vassula said: My Lord, do let me understand why there are spelling mistakes?

Vassula, these are your own, not Mine; I have chosen you because you are imperfect and with many weaknesses, I, God, choose My instruments weak because My Power is at its best in weakness,

Vassula said: Yet, You do now and then give me new words unknown to me.

I do, when the need comes; I have you under dictation and it is wrong to believe that this is My handwriting,

Vassula said: why then the difference of writing Lord?

I like it this way; I use My instruments as they are with all their imperfections and all their weaknesses to dictate to them My Knowledge and to feed them and others My Word; I know how many of them take My Words which many a time are symbolic, to the word, but this again is reflecting their weakness, their obedience and their child-like-faith to Me and their desire to please Me; happy the man who stands firm when trials come;

come My child, allow Me to use you as I please, all your sacrifices will not be in vain be one with Me, Love loves you

boomSLANG said...

"Yahweh" wrote(typed):

My Image will be spread across the face of the world; what I have planned shall happen and what I have told you shall be fulfilled;[bold added]

Well, Jebus, I guess that settles it, then---you have evidently "planned" on there being at least some non-believers, which would make perfect sense, firstly, because you know EVERYTHING, including the future... and second, since you created a place specifically for these people. And of course it is there, while they burn in perpetual horrific agony, that you can continue to shower them with your "infinite love".

(Besides, we wouldn't your suicide/murder to be in vain, would we?)

stronger now said...

"come My child, allow Me to use you as I please..."

Anyone else see the comparison to pedophilia?

Marc, I think I understand your predilection for catholicism.

Get help.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Stronger, you may be onto something here. Just look at this line 'jesus' wrote us.


I use My instruments as they are with all their imperfections and all their weaknesses to....feed them

What instruments do you suppose he's talking about there, hmm.


ATF (who wonders about those 'instrument imperfections' to)

Jim Arvo said...

I'd like to point out that two out of three of our visitors (Dan and Marc, aka Passerby) have demonstrated that they cannot engage in a civil dialog. I've had no trouble conversing with NegroSan, but the other two haven't a clue how to discuss their opinions with those outside their faith. As I said before, one would think that if they had an all-powerful being on their side, she might have granted them enough patience and humility to set aside their mountains of dogma long enough to converse. But instead, what we've seen from them (Dan and Marc) is endless cut-and-paste drivel. Marc's last few posts (as Jesus) betrays a mental illness, if you ask me. (I've said that before, and it keeps presenting itself as a real possibility.) How can he *possibly* think that that nonsense is going to persuade anybody?

For everybody else, feel very glad you've escaped the cult.

Passerby said...

I tried engaging you in a discussion Jim, you simply paid lip-service. In the end, on Judgement day, you won't be able to say you didn't hear Jesus' warnings.

We'll keep praying for all of you...

Peace.

Astreja said...

Prayers, huh? Two can play that game.

To all Christian apologists, everywhere: I pray to Myself that you see the full horror of your chosen religion, and wake the fuck up.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Astreja said...
To all Christian apologists, everywhere: I pray to Myself that you see the full horror of your chosen religion, and wake the fuck up

I, the one and only ToothFairy, second Astreja's prayer motion.

I also will personally pray to the ToothFairy God that he-she reinstates all the WISDOM (teeth), missing from our visiting xtians....even the trolls (you know who you are).

ATF (who thinks one prayer is as effective as another)

Jim Arvo said...

Marc, you invariably become rude and condescending when you are faced with the task of pondering a view you do not hold.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle

I'll take Aristotle's sentiment a step further. I think it's the mark of a functioning mind.

I've been 100% forthcoming in all my dialogues here, with you and others. What beautiful freedom it is to be able to answer fully and honestly to anyone, even someone like you, who cowers behind scripture and the babblings of modern-day mystics, too afraid to think lest he lose favor with some invisible monster. You may never know that freedom. You may never know the joy of using one's mind to its fullest, entertaining any reasonable argument and allowing the evidence to point where it will. The real world is a great place, Marc. You should give it a try.

Go ahead and take another shot at me if you like. Your words will never have any force because you still have no idea where I stand, even now. You continually project nonsense onto everyone else because you apparently cannot grasp what they say; or maybe you just don't care about anyone but yourself. Shallow piety is a poor substitute for compassion; I'm sure even your imagined savior would agree with that. I can't say what the cause is, but you definitely seem deeply troubled. It's always evident, no matter what name you hide behind, because you speak but do not listen, you parrot but do not think, you believe but do not question, and you simply cannot refrain from displaying all of the above, time and again.

Have you the integrity to stick to one pseudonym, Marc/Passerby/Unblinded/etc.? Or is deception okay so long as it's in the service of your god?

Dan Marvin said...

You think you know what the Bible says but we take it out of context and don't understand what the author is truly saying to us.

Take your Wizard of OZ comment:

ATF : "Boom, how much do you wanna bet that these fundies are also the very same people that continued to believe the Wizard of Oz really had all those great powers,

(who is waiting for the rapture tornado to take all the fundies to the land of oz)"


The truth is the Wizard of OZ story did play out as the story told us in real life, if you take things in context. You will see what the author is telling us when we look at the background of the author at the time, the government was moving towards gold backed dollars and L. Frank Baum didn't agree and he said the yellow brick road (Gold) would lead to corruption in OZ(Ounces). When she clicks her silver slippers in the book ( ruby, in movie for better camera appearance) "there is no place like home" government Dollar being backed by Silver. For all of the symbolism of the story, the best website I found so far is HERE

But as we can see, just like the Bible, you all see a wonderful story but the reality behind it is a truth in the message and this is why we must apply principles of hermeneutics to understand the truth behind the parables. We must understand the messages the author is telling us.

To clarify, The Bible is truth and real life events and The Wizard of OZ is just a story but we can look at the similarities of underlining symbolism. Take for instance the Rich Man and Lazerath (Luke 16:19-31), most people think the rich man is just a rich dude in hell for not feeding Lazerath. Is it a picture of the way to salvation? If so, it's totally inconsistent with every other Biblical reference to deliverance from death. The symbolism the author is making is very important.

First, why did the rich man end up in hell? What was his sin? Obviously, it was his failure to feed Lazarus. If that is the case, then he could have earned salvation. If a non-Christian wanted to earn his way into Heaven, should he then give food to the homeless? How much food would merit eternal life? No since salvation is "by grace through faith,... not of works"(Ephesians 2:8-9), the rich man's sin could could not have been a mere failure to give Lazarus free food.

On the other hand, what did Lazarus do to merit salvation? Did suffering in the life appease the wrath of God and gain him entrance? If so let us seek suffering instead of the Savior.

If this is a picture of the way of salvation, then Eternal Justice can be perverted, God can be bribed, and the sacrifice of the wicked is not an abomination to the Lord.

The story , therefore, MUST have another meaning .

So who is the rich man? Let's establish several principles of Biblical interpretation that will unlock the meaning of the story.

1. Purple is the Biblical color of royalty (Esther 8:15
2. Fine linen represents the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8)
3. The Church is referred to as the "royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9)
4. The tabernacle was made of fine linen and purple (Exodus 26:1)

I believe the rich man is a type of professing Church, and the leper (Lazarus) is a type of 'the sinner'.

The rich man's thoughts are only for himself. He is filled with his own ways. We have built for ourselves big beautiful buildings with cool clear acoustics and colorful carpets, as cozy Christians we sit on padded pews, living in luxury while sinners sink into Hell. We say that we are rich, but we are poor, blind, wretched, miserable, and naked. We have lavish luxury on the lifeboat, while mass people drown around us.

Using Hermeneutics have unlocked many things in the Bible for myself and I hope to have a better understanding of it. I wish you all the very best and hope you will understand that I don't stand above all of you looking down, but among you looking up. I wish you all the best.

Peace....OUT!

stronger now said...

Well, wadda ya know. Dan's back. I knew he couldn't leave us alone. He's still itchin' for some verbal S&M.

"The Bible is truth..."

How do you know? Is it because it says so? Is that what those wicked liars wrote?

Using symbolism, one can make stories in the bible mean all kinds of things. In fact I don't think It would be honest to try and pry subjective symbolism into proper hermeneutical context to make a passage mean what YOU want it to.

I think it was Freud who said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

stronger now said...

Also, Dan, That website that YOU said was "the best website I found so far" was just another christian website. The article could have been written by YOU as it had no known author and it's(the article) only links were to a christian forum site.

It is possible to look for "hidden meanings" in ANY book. It just takes a creative imagination to find them.

stronger now said...

If anyone wants a to know how reliable that WofOZ site Dan linked to is, just click the back button at the bottom of that page.

Dan, do you believe everything you read by any christian that supports what you want to think without question?

stronger now said...

Well, Dan's "best" is shown wanting again. I found the name of the man who originally made the Wizard of Oz interpretations as being politically motivated. Henry Littlefield. More info on this fascinating subject can be found here:

http://www.turnmeondeadman.net/OZ/Responses.php

There is also information about those that interpret it differently. So I guess that really doesn't support Dan's case at all. As I suspected.

Passerby said...

Jim said- "you invariably become rude and condescending when you are faced with the task of pondering a view you do not hold."

Jim, is it rude to hope for everyone's salvation? I think that your words are nothing but a mirror to your own character my friend.

Jim stated- "I humbly admit that I may be completely wrong in my current understanding, and that Jesus may indeed be the savior you've been claiming him to be."
....and you call yourself honest?

I could NOT state- "I humbly admit that I may be completely wrong in my current understanding, and that Jesus may indeed be a figment of my imagination.".

If you cannot accept this kind of certainty in faith, that's your choice, but know that it is rude on your part to disrespect my beliefs.

Jim states- "The difference is that you assume there is such a being. You cannot acknowledge even that?"

Assuming you know your father, would you state that: "I humbly admit that I may be completely wrong about my father's existence." ? No, of course not, because materialism is your "God" and having seen your father you can accurately conclude that he does exist. Conversely, I have seen God's hand at work in my life and without laying eyes on Him, I know that He exists. Just as your materialism is sufficient for your proof, my spiritualism is sufficient for my proof in Jesus.

Jim says- "What beautiful freedom it is to be able to answer fully and honestly to anyone, even someone like you."

You can take all the shots at me you wish Jim.

You keep attacking my use of pseudonyms and even this demonstrates dishonesty in you. I could search all the past posts and would find one of your posts where you stated that you had no issues with people using pseudonyms but that you personally chose not to. Some of your fellows at this site have also used other pseudonyms at times. You work hard to find flaws in me but it really isn't hard to do, my wife and my confessor could attest to that. This attack of yours on my use of different names is simply another one of your smear tactics because you know very well
why I changed names.

Jim, welcome to humanity, we are all sinners...even you.

Jim says- "Your words will never have any force because you still have no idea where I stand, even now."

Correct me if I'm wrong but....You are an atheist that has come to believe that everything that makes up reality can be traced back to a material cause and effect. Nothing in your worldview has ever presented sufficient credible evidence for something that is beyond this reality of yours.

Was I close?

By the way, did you ever finish reading Kenneth Miller's "Finding Darwin's God?" Hope you read the last two chapters, these are the ones that matter. I figure that this Catholic biologist's perspective on evolution and materialism would be much more pleasing to you that Michael Behe's perspective.

Peace.

.:webmaster:. said...

Passerby (Marc),

Did you post the rantings by "Jesus?"

Please answer.

Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan Marvin!

I thought you left?!?! I thought you said goodbye!?!?!

I guess it's the fanatic's prerogative to change its mind.

stronger now said...

"...that it is rude on your part to disrespect my beliefs."

While I cannot speak for Jim, I would say that you are being quite hypocritical here in that, YOU are the one comeing on THIS site disrespecting our "beliefs". YOU continue to do this in a disrespectful manner by poseing as a different "person" after being asked to leave.

After he stated that he could be wrong about something you said:"...and you call yourself honest?"

What's dishonest about it? He is asking for credible evidence that could change his mind. YOU cannot deliver any and YOU attack him for what YOU lack?

"I could search all the past posts and would find one of your posts where you stated that you had no issues with people using pseudonyms but that you personally chose not to."

Then shut up and DO IT! If you can show the quote in context. And make sure he was speaking of someone who is being rude and condescending and disrespectful as you are to get the correct interpretation. M'kay!

"This attack of yours on my use of different names is simply another one of your smear tactics because you know very well
why I changed names."

It could be argued that you want to make a pest out of yourself and you're using deceitful tactics to enable you to do so. Or one could say you lie to make people think you are someone who does not routinely make absurd statements and disregard pleas to go away. There are a number of reasons you try and decieve us, all are for your own selfish desires.

"...my spiritualism is sufficient for my proof in Jesus."

So what? You know it is insufficient enough "proof" for anybody else. We explain this nearly every time to you and other christians and you know it. So why do you expect anyone of us to take YOUR faith as anything close to credible evidence for the claims that you make?

We remind you so often of this and still you expect us to give you a respect that you don't show us.

Respect, once lost, must be earned.
You lost my respect long ago and I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. So if you expect us to show respect for you, stop acting like a jerk!

You're just writing a lot of claptrap you know we have already heard and rejected.


If you want us to respect something that seems to us as an infantile fantasy then you must show us that it is not fantasy by giving us credible evidence that is objective.


Otherwise, you can take your imaginary friend and your pseudonyms and FUCK OFF!!!

stronger now said...

Oops! sorry Dave. I didn't see you ask Marc to answer your question.

So marc please answer webmasters question. Then...well.. you know.

To WebMaster from Jesus said...

.... unhappy creature, your rebellion and your denial of The Most Holy Trinity turned you into a renegade and persecutor of My Word;

- your laments and your wailing will be heard only by you then; I tell you: you will mourn and you will weep, but your laments will only be heard by your own ears;

To WebMaster from Jesus said...

tell them that I love each one of them in a special way; tell them also that I am not a complicated God; I am not far I am present at this very moment; tell them how I long for their love; show them what the Lord's Heart is; tell them that the Lord's Heart is nothing else but Love and Mercy and if Justice is brought down upon you it is because of the graveness of your sins and crimes; how many times I overlook all that you do not do in My favour and how many times I kept away the Father's Hand from falling upon you!

Astreja said...

Jesus-troll, fuck off. I'll deal with your imaginary abusive bastard of a daddygod Myself, thankyouverymuch.

As for you, Passerby, this is *our* site. You are the rude and condescending one...

...And, apparently, so thoroughly cuckolded by your fears and superstitions that you're psychologically incapable of simply walking away and leaving us alone. On behalf of Myself, the other regulars, and all those lurkers currently struggling to escape Christianity, thanks for aiding in our deconversions.

You're next.

Jim Arvo said...

Marc: "Jim, is it rude to hope for everyone's salvation? I think that your words are nothing but a mirror to your own character my friend."

If you think that's my beef with you, then you are even more dense than you've been portraying yourself to be (which I though impossible until now, frankly). You say that you "hope for everyone's salvation". I'll give you a simple reply. That's a nice sentiment, but it's meaningless to me (and most everyone else here), as the entire notion of "salvation" is bit of Christian dogma that I don't believe in. Of course, you already knew that. Yet you speak as though you didn't. Curious, no? But, let's let that slide for a moment.

Now, you've said what you wanted to say: That you hope for everyone's salvation. There. All done. Right?
No, not in a million years. You'll be back again and again and again, pretending not to understand that your dogma is meaningless to us, threatening judgment and eternal retribution, and reminding us again and again and again that all you want is for everyone to be "saved", always pretending not to understand that it is a meaningless bit of dogma to us, then cutting-and-pasting endless sophomoric apologetics, pretending not to understand that we've all heard it before and that it's all meaningless dogma to us, then explaining again and again and again that yours is a religion of Love, and that Jesus just wants us to accept him into our hearts, pretending not to understand that we've all heard that a million times, and that it's meaningless dogma to us, then you'll sign on as "Tony the Tiger", and you'll start spouting about "salvation" and "sin", pretending not to understand that we know all about your theology, and that we think it's nonsensical dogma, then you'll sign on as "Booboo the Bear", and tell us all about it again, pretending not to understand that we've heard it a million times and think it's mythology, and on and on and on and on and on and on it will go. Right? Right. Your problem, Marc, is that you have no respect for anybody. You think it a great gift to wish us "salvation", but you fail to grasp that we DISAGREE with your theology. We DISAGREE with you, Marc. We DISAGREE. WE DISAGREE. WE DISAGREE. W_E___D_I_S_A_G_R_E_E. But you'll never accept that, because you think you are above us, and that you have the secret, and that we are fools who are headed to Hell. There can be no disagreeing with Marc. Marc's opinion is to be shared by all. Sheesh.

If you only knew what a low opinion we have of you, Marc, for endlessly and mindlessly pushing your theology where it is not wanted. If you only understood what a STAIN you are on your own religion! If only...

As to my prior statement about Jesus, which Marc still cannot grasp, he said "....and you call yourself honest?"

Yes, Marc, I'm an honest person. You cannot face that, I know. Your only recourse is to call me a liar, because the alternative is just unbearable--you might need to THINK, and appreciate a DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE. Anything but that! Nothing else matters to you but YOUR opinion. You have no respect for anybody. You're the one placing yourself on a pedestal, Marc, not me.

Marc: "If you cannot accept this kind of certainty in faith, that's your choice, but know that it is rude on your part to disrespect my beliefs."

You are welcome to your beliefs, Marc. You can believe ANYTHING you want! And for ANY REASON you want! I will never come to your door, or spam your website. It's YOU who condescendingly plasters your idiotic drivel around here as though you have something incredibly important to say--so important that you needn't listen to anybody else. But all you have is an OPINION, Marc. That's ALL IT IS. An OPINION! We've heard it at least a hundred times from you. But that's not enough, is it Marc? No. You've got to spout it more, as if you have something novel and important to say. Either you're pretending to be a sociopath, or it's the real thing. Take your pick.

You're not interested in "salvation"--it's CONVERSION that you're after, and in the most outrageously idiotic manner possible; by filibuster. What kind of idiot thinks that approach can work?

Marc: "...I have seen God's hand at work in my life..."

You *think* you've seen "god's hand", just as Hindus think they've seen Vishnu and/or Krishna. Maybe someone, somewhere, has had a true religious experience. It's possible. But the odds of someone like you, who drones on senselessly ad infinitum and ad nauseum, actually having hit upon the ONE TRUE GOD should there be one... Not even worth considering! Zero probability.

Marc: "Just as your materialism...."

My what? You don't know bupkis about my beliefs, Marc! How could you? You've had your fingers firmly planted in your ears.

Marc: "You keep attacking my use of pseudonyms and even this demonstrates dishonesty in you. I could search all the past posts and would find one of your posts where you stated that you had no issues with people using pseudonyms but that you personally chose not to."

You are unbelievably dense, Marc. I have no problem with pseudonyms. I have a problem with wearing out your welcome, then continuing to foist your nonsense on others by skulking behind a whole parade of them. That is dishonest and disrespectful. Have you got your hands round that yet, or must I explain it as if to a five-year-old?

Marc: "You work hard to find flaws in me..."

You flatter yourself. You splay your flaws across every discussion thread you urinate on (like a dog marking a tree).

Marc: "This attack of yours on my use of different names is simply another one of your smear tactics because you know very well why I changed names."

Yes! I do know why you change names, Marc! To deceive. You want us to think you are not Marc/Unblinded/etc.who we've dismissed numerous times already. Do you deny that? Go ahead, Marc, let's hear you deny that your use of various pseudonyms is to mislead and deceive. You wish to deny us the CHOICE as to whether to engage you (Marc) or to read your (Marc's) tired nonsense. You do this through deception. It's dishonest.

Marc: "Jim, welcome to humanity,..."

I've been human all along. I'm merely a primate with a relatively large neocortex, which allows me to entertain hypothetical situations and use language, like all other normal humans. My brain is also replete with the same social heuristics as yours; they work well in some cases, not so well in others. You happen to think those heuristics extend to a supernatural realm; I do not.

Marc: "Correct me if I'm wrong but....You are an atheist that has come to believe that everything that makes up reality can be traced back to a material cause and effect...."

Predictably, Marc, you paint me as dogmatic. You don't get it. You see everything as black and white; you think in terms of certainty and proof and absolutes. You continually make the mistake of projecting that categorical thinking onto others (including me). We've gone round and round and round on this. I've patiently explained it to you many times. Maybe you can't grasp that others think differently than you; maybe you don't want to know. Whatever it is, Marc, I don't want to deal with it any longer. Consider yourself corrected; I would not make such a dogmatic statement as I do not claim to be omniscient.

Marc: "By the way, did you ever finish reading Kenneth Miller's 'Finding Darwin's God?'..."

I've only read parts of Miller's book, although I have read many of his articles. I'm quite familiar with his position. I have a great deal of respect for his science and his teaching--he's top rate. I don't see how that translates into theology, however.

Now, learn some respect for others, humble yourself by admitting that you espouse an OPINION like the rest of us, and stick to a single pseudonym so that we can all exercise our free will and ignore your claptrap if we so choose.

Good day.

boomSLANG said...

One of the several obstinate loitering Christians said:

If you cannot accept this kind of certainty in faith, that's your choice...[bold added]

Listen closely, Christian---in the statement, "certainty in faith", normal, educated people, see that as a blatant contradiction; it's an oxymoron, very similar to "hopeful-reliability". 'Get it??? If something is "reliable", you don't need to fall down on your knees and "hope" that you can rely on it---you know it's reliable, or else, you would have never deemed it "reliable" in the first place. Duh? Just like if you are CERTAIN of something, you do NOT need "Faith"; you don't need to think twice about it. Now, does this make sense to you, Christian(s)?

Let me illustrate further: Do you "see" the chair you're sitting in right now as you read this? Yes? Okay, when you go to sit in said chair, do you give it any *EXTRA* thought?..do you question, even for a split second, if the chair will hold you up, or not? Do you first "pray", or chant to the chair before you sit in it? No, of course you don't--unless you've got an obsessive/compulsive disorder--you DO NOT question it, or give it a second thought, hence, you are certain of the chair's existence, and also of it's function.

This type of certainty, or reliability, renders "faith" obsolete. Your particular religion is called the "Christian Faith" for a reason. Most Christians reaffirm this "faith" 1-2 @ week, all year round. Um, that doesn't sound like "certainty in faith" to me.

Loitering Christian chirped: but know that it is rude on your part to disrespect my beliefs.

Listen here, Christian, IT'S RUDE OF YOU TO DISRESPECT OUR NON-BELIEF. READ the f%cking disclaimer. If you cannot respect it, take your contradicting, circular, mystical mishmash and BEAT IT......and take your Jebus sock-puppet with yOU.

Passerby said...

Please accept my sincere apology for the different pseudonyms Jim but having my posts deleted many months ago on a public web site was reason enough.

You may not think that salvation matters to you but it does to others Jim. If I see you attacking the faith of one of God's children that happens to wander to this Web site, you can be assured that I will post my two cents. Until then...

Please understand that none of your frenzies will stop me from reminding anyone that our God is God of Love.

Take care of yourself Jim. If praying will never be an option for you, at least consider meditation. I don't want you to meet your maker too soon.

You really should consider finishing Mr. Miller's book, maybe someday his book will help you reconcile your knowledge of nature with your belief in God (assuming you should ever have such a belief). Maybe...

Peace.

Jim Arvo said...

Marc: "You may not think that salvation matters to you..."

You STILL don't get it. Is there no way to get through to you?

Marc: "If I see you attacking the faith of one of God's children..."

You're a sick man. I could just as easily accuse you of abusing others with your grotesque theology of fear. You are welcome to wallow in it yourself, but don't try to destroy anybody else's life with it. If you do...

freethinker05 said...

Sun-of-a-beach, it's took me about 10 minutes to scroll down to make a comment, but it was worth it to make my comment to dan m./ passerby/marc/jesus/
oneandthesame etc. May I call you marc? ok, good. Marc, I myself am willing to forgive you, if you stick with the same name, ok? Good, Thanks. Marc, when I first joined the group, I was pretty depressed over all the "lies" and "condradictions" contained in the bible. I had learned from others, OUTSIDE this group,and when I started reading your comments,(apologetics) to uphold the bible, it kindof gave me a little hope, until you got into that story of stepping over something in a certain spot, while jogging nude? (it's been awhile back) smelling something, I knew then and there you had shit and fell back in it; hell, I could even smell it. Anyway, as long as the WM permits you to stay around, please, keep it real and to the point, no-shit, ok? (pun intended). Hell, just be yourself, and if you haven't any good answers, then just say; I DON'T KNOW! Best wishes to you and yours. Roger...A/A and/I DON'T KNOW... Peace

.:webmaster:. said...

Marc,

You also owe me an apology. I have asked you dozens of times to stop posting on this PRIVATE website. It is publicly viewable, but it is not a PUBLIC website -- it is financed and maintained by private individuals.

Please have respect for this private property and stop trespassing.

Thank you.

.:webmaster:. said...

The comments on this topic have made it unwieldy, so this topic is now closed.

Thank you to all those who participated in the conversation, especially the Roman Catholic mystically minded Marc (who at times believes he is posting new messages from the very mouth of his god) and Dan Marvin, the KJV-only, Baptist or Church of Christ fundamentalist who faithfully and unthinkingly and with great pomposity pridefully parrots only such things as his little church has taught him.

The title of this testimonial is "If you logically look at Christianity, it just doesn't add up." If you carefully read the postings of Dan Marvin and Marc (Passerby), you'll understand my gratitude for their participation in this thread.

To all those who have followed this thread, I recommend Excedrin.

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