Left Christianity
Sent in by Yolanda
I have decided to leave Christianity, alone.
As you can guess that doesn't sit to well with my family. I was on the phone today talking to my cousin, who was basically trying to convince me that I have made some sort of mistake. She is telling me that I have a spirit of confusion because I let some books change the way I used to think. She all but cussed me out and called me a demon. She did nothing but yell and scream at me.
I told her, "well no one has ever seen GOD so how can you apply attributes of any kind to something you have never seen?" Then she replies, "Well, have you seen your brain? Have you seen your heart? Have you seen your kidney? Well, it's the same thing."
OK, correct me if I am wrong, but this seems a bit absurd, to the say the least.
I could have sworn it had already been proven that humans have a brain, heart, etc. But anyway, as you can see, this isn't going over to well with the church and family. I told her that I have been looking into the background and the beginnings of Christianity. Of course she doesn't accept this. She then proceeded to tell me that I have to be careful with what I put in my spirit because it can lead to confusion.
This has been a work in progress for months. Had this been a year ago, no one could have told me I would be where I am right now. It has been a hard decision for me to make, and harder still to actually tell people what I am going through. In the Black community even those that aren't "saved" still say they believe in Jesus. You don't hear of too many black people heavily invested in the belief and then turning around to say they don't believe anymore.
This has been hard for me, to say the least, but it is my decision, and everyone can take it or leave it.
St. Louis
MO
USA
8 yrs. old
24 yrs. old
Was: Apostolic faith, C.O.G.I.C.
Now: no label yet
Converted because: I felt I had a need.
De-converted because: researching the history of Christianity
email: yolanda_jimerson2000 AT yahoo DOT com
I have decided to leave Christianity, alone.
As you can guess that doesn't sit to well with my family. I was on the phone today talking to my cousin, who was basically trying to convince me that I have made some sort of mistake. She is telling me that I have a spirit of confusion because I let some books change the way I used to think. She all but cussed me out and called me a demon. She did nothing but yell and scream at me.
I told her, "well no one has ever seen GOD so how can you apply attributes of any kind to something you have never seen?" Then she replies, "Well, have you seen your brain? Have you seen your heart? Have you seen your kidney? Well, it's the same thing."
OK, correct me if I am wrong, but this seems a bit absurd, to the say the least.
I could have sworn it had already been proven that humans have a brain, heart, etc. But anyway, as you can see, this isn't going over to well with the church and family. I told her that I have been looking into the background and the beginnings of Christianity. Of course she doesn't accept this. She then proceeded to tell me that I have to be careful with what I put in my spirit because it can lead to confusion.
This has been a work in progress for months. Had this been a year ago, no one could have told me I would be where I am right now. It has been a hard decision for me to make, and harder still to actually tell people what I am going through. In the Black community even those that aren't "saved" still say they believe in Jesus. You don't hear of too many black people heavily invested in the belief and then turning around to say they don't believe anymore.
This has been hard for me, to say the least, but it is my decision, and everyone can take it or leave it.
St. Louis
MO
USA
8 yrs. old
24 yrs. old
Was: Apostolic faith, C.O.G.I.C.
Now: no label yet
Converted because: I felt I had a need.
De-converted because: researching the history of Christianity
email: yolanda_jimerson2000 AT yahoo DOT com
Comments
Congratulations for taking the lone leap out of faith amid the objections of your family. We've all been down a road similar to the one you are now traveling, and it does feel very lonely indeed. Try to take comfort in knowing you are not alone here, and that it will get easier in time. Although most will never really understand your reason for leaving Christianity or agree with your decision, hopefully they will at least learn to accept it and continue loving you regardless.
God, if there is a God (and I believe there is), is not limited to christianity alone, and if said God is perfect and thus ego-less, God would like for you to use the brain you have and to find what works for you.
It's not easy to leave and recover, as any who have left the faith can attest, but when you do fully get over it, you may find your life being fuller and more free then ever before. And don't forget that we'll be here to help you if you want it.
You don't sound confused to me. :)
Well, you've taken a really big step in that you have changed a large part of how you are identified. You are no longer a "we" as far as your circle is concerned, you are "other".
I suggest you get your hands on a book called Leaving the Fold by a lady named Winnell, she appears on this site so you should be able to find it.
My daughter-in-law is black, her family is Carribean in origin so they are Anglican, and she is "wavering in her faith". There has been a lot of pressure on her, and they are really laying it on her.
This idea that one should not read anything that would confuse the spirit is so very absurd. No, no, no, can't let any of that logic and reason stuff influence you, now, can we? :) Since they don't have any valid arguments in their favor, they will scare you out of reading any of that "satanic" stuff that might show how they are wrong.
answer is: Man can do what he wants to do without correction. Sinful
man does not want to be told what to do. They want to live a life
filled with sin and iniquity without any censure. So, just do away
with God, and we can live like we want to live.
...but what are these things you call 'sin and iniquity'?
My answer: An objective knowledge of the universe based on reality.
JB's answer: "The obvious
answer is: Man can do what he wants to do without correction."
False argument; irrelevant conclusion. Go to your state penitentiary and ask the inmates, many of whom are there for life, if they can do what they want "without correction". Morals are NOT dictated by a "God". We have objective laws as a society, but there are no objective "morals".
JB: "Sinful
man does not want to be told what to do. They want to live a life
filled with sin and iniquity without any censure."
"Sinful man"? So should we let all the inmates who've been convicted of rape out of prison? After all, rape is condoned in your bible, and even encouraged in some instances....so it can't be a "sin". Should we stone to death all rebellious teens?(the bad kind of "stone") Again, just following instructions.
JB: "So, just do away
with God, and we can live like we want to live."
Are you saying "God" is just a concept? Wow, you're finally right about something. If God really existed, how would we simply "do away with God"? The point is, you haven't proven the existance of any such being, let alone, that the bible is anything more than a bunch of Bronze-aged man-made babble.
I wonder why Christians believe that only Christians have morals?
Weird.
Now, as to that nitwit "Jaybird"...
I REALLY hate it when Christians claim that non-Christians reject god because WE want to "get away with sin". This is absolute B.S! It is the CHRISTIAN who runs to God, begging to be forgiven for sins! It is the Christian who wants to be able to do as they please and NOT be held accounatble for their actions! So how dare you, you idiot Jaybird, accuse US of being guilty of what YOU are doing?!?
What are the origins of the following words?
Sin, savior, god, jesus, angels, heaven, hell, allah, mohammad, virgin births, satan, spirit, holy spirit, soul, ghosts. santify. anointed, prayer, baptism, saved, gospel, faith, prophet, etc.
Just were did these words originate, perhaps from within one's own mind?
Lets examine the origins of these words! In reverse order!
1. From hearing others repeating them and reading them from where? The bible!
2. A book assembled by men, which men, and why just men?
3. From a book brought over here to America by pilgrims!
4. A book brought over here by a pilgrim via a ship to America, it is spread by human contact only!
5. A book that was assembled by men and a vote decided by a counsel of religious fanatics and drunkards.
6. A book that was assembled by men, that were under extreme duress to explain the unknown using only their imagination and calling it, inspired from a god.
7. A book that was written on papyrus and translated over 1600 times.
8. A book that was assembled by men that had little or no education or scientific knowledge.
9. A book assembled by men, whom as far as anyone knows were totally and completely insane.
10. A book assembled by men, whom as far as we know were completely stoned out from opium or hashish or wine.
11. A book assembled by men, to control men, and to forgive men, and to condone their wars and evil thoughts and deeds.
12. A book assembled by men, to control people with fear and threats of eternal damnation.
13. A book assembled by men, with pages of autrocities and mental anguish and superstitions.
14. A book assembled by men, over 2000 years ago, not worthy to be called reliable in any manner.
15. A book assembled by men, which men and what was their real names, all we have is made up first names, not that it would make it any more believable.
16. A filthy lying book assembled by men called the bible, not even worthy to be trampled over by nasty stinking pigs.
17. A book that is out of date and is not compatible with reality or modern times.
18. An ancient book assembled by ancient men and ancient superstitious thinking and ideas.
That my friends is were the American people hear such foolish nonsense words, they are words we hear repeadly from fools thinking that the bible possesses some form of knowledge. It's the book of fools, it's been tried and tested and always comes back as the book of fools.
The bible is the origin of words used and accepted by fools, as written in the book of fools.
The bible, the book of fools along with the mighty Q'uran!
Jaybird, you are truelly mentally challenged. What the fuck is wrong with you dude? Do you think that Christians hold the monopoly on moral living? Your argument was that we become Athiests because we want to do whatever we want with no consequences. What a crock of shit! Many of the other world's religions put Christianity to shame with the morally superior way of life! It's pastors and priests that are committing rape, molestation and fraud, not athiest leaders, not Buddhist monks, and not Jewish rabbis! The prevalance of crimes comitted by Christian clergy is appalling! Over 80% of Americans consider themselves Christians and yet it's Christians who are crying about this godless country. Uhm, hello, according to your polls it looks like it's mostly Christians doing the voting and the law making so this fucking country should be a Utopia, but it's not, because CHISTIANITY DOESN'T WORK!!! It doesn't work because IT ISN'T REAL!!! You are such a self righteous prick. It's Hitler who claimed himself a Christian and thought he was doing God a favor that killed millions of Jews and others. It's "Christians" who led the Inquisitions, Crusades, Witch hunts and the slaughtering of American Indians. It's white European "Christian" men who were at the forefront of the slave trade and were the most opposed to ending slavery. I could go on, but I'm wasting my breath on your ignorance. Anyone else care to add more to the argument of moral superiority belonging to Christians?
Anyway, I hope that your family members and friends (soon-to-be former friends, possibly) remember what the Gospels say, and avoid judging you. They should listen to your reasons, try to injest them, and if they can't think of anything intelligent to say in response, then they should simply pray. But if they curse at you, they'll be revealing the limitations of their faith.
Mark
While he's there, he might also ask the inmates what religion they profess. The overwhelming majority will say they're christian, with moslems coming in second. Less than .02 percent are professed atheists.
Hey!..that's fantastic news for the tax payers and rapists! Okay, so we can let out the "overwhelming majority" of the prisoners because they now have Jesus Christ dwelling within them. And we can let out ALL of the rapists, regardless of which religion they "profess", because "rape" isn't a "sin".
I feel safer already! LMAO!
We all know Christians sin, and get blasted for it everyday. Everyone sins and screws up the Bible even confirms it (Romans 3:23)
Chrisitans do not ask God for forgiveness just so that we are not accountable for our actions...we do it because sin offends God and it is something that is required to obtain eternal life.
CHRISTIANS DO SIN (just to clear up any misunderstanding about that)
"While he's there, he might also ask the inmates what religion they profess. The overwhelming majority will say they're christian, with moslems coming in second. Less than .02 percent are professed atheists."
MAYBE BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO PUT THERE FAITH IN SOMETHING...
boomSLANG said...
JB: "Question: What can be gained by doing away with God?"
My answer: An objective knowledge of the universe based on reality.
ok boomslang...what is your objective knowledge of the universe....?
"Lets examine the origins of these words! In reverse order!"
i'm still waiting!
So you say that Benjamin said nothing. Are you willing to deny that the bible was brought to America by pilgrims?
If so, your intellectual superiority doesn't impress me.
By the way, why are you so angry? Aren't christians supposed to be loving, joyful, peaceful, tolerant, patient, and all that?
What happened? Your pastor never preached about that?
Actually, I'm pretty sick of repeating myself. I may just do a "fundy form letter" and use that from now on. In a nut-shell: no evidence---no belief. Jaybird, do you believe in fairies, the Easter bunny, the boogieman, Toth, Buddha, imps, leprecahuns? No? Y'know, Jaybird, you CAN find complete and vivid descriptions of ALL of the above characters written in books, but yet, I bet you STILL don't believe in those things, do you? Right, and neither do I....but also, I don't believe in your biblegod, and this is for THE EXACT SAME reasons that YOU don't believe in any of those other things: Because there's NO evidence that appeals to my nature and physical senses that says I should. The bible is NOT "evidence"----the bible is an appeal to wishful thinking and FEAR...Aaaarggggg!! WHEN!?!?!?!....WHEN will you people GET this!?!?!?!
If so, your intellectual superiority doesn't impress me."
Yes maybe it was brought here by pilgrims...however did that prove his point of word origin? no...so i believe your intellectual superiority doesn't impress me either....
"By the way, why are you so angry? Aren't christians supposed to be loving, joyful, peaceful, tolerant, patient, and all that?
What happened? Your pastor never preached about that? "
Nice try Lorena, Christians are supposed to be loving, joyful, peaceful, patient,and all that....However we dont have to be Tolerant to think that we ought to accept and believe everything we hear as being "alternative truth". Jesus has said that truth is absolute and knowable (John 8:31,32). If a teaching or philosophy is contrary to the Scriptures, then it must not be tolerated but rejected.
So nice try on attacking me personally, but i wont work...And your the one who appears angry here...
ok boomslang about my earlier question "what is your objective knowledge of the universe....?"
This is basically your response:
"In a nut-shell: no evidence---no belief. "
This is it? everything else you type was what you dont believe....i asked you what your objective knowledge of the universe was...and i got the response i expected...
"Nice try Lorena, Christians are supposed to be loving, joyful, peaceful, patient,and all that....However we dont have to be Tolerant to think that we ought to accept and believe everything we hear as being "alternative truth"
Lorena responds:
Nobody is asking you to accept anything we say, Jaybird. We don't speak dogmas like you do. We are here to support each other in our exit from christianity, not to convince YOU of anything.
Get over yourself, will you?
As for my alleged intellectual superiority, I say, excuse me? I do not claim to know it all. I am just pointing out the flows in both your person and your belief system. And to do that, one doesn't need to be an intellectual. It is a brainless endeavor.
Nobody is asking you to accept anything we say, Jaybird. We don't speak dogmas like you do. We are here to support each other in our exit from christianity, not to convince YOU of anything.
Get over yourself, will you?"
I am over myself Lorena, but i will stand for what is right...you claim the Christians a haters, but when i came in here and spoke a different view i was immediatly attacked with hatred... Look at yourselves first. remove the log in your eye before you remove the speck in mine...i am over myself but, not over God.
"As for my alleged intellectual superiority, I say, excuse me? I do not claim to know it all. I am just pointing out the flows in both your person and your belief system. And to do that, one doesn't need to be an intellectual. It is a brainless endeavor."
As am I....
Anonymous said...
"Jaybird, you sound like you're on medication, what drugs you on partner, Jesus weed??? "
haha...if the Bible is Jesus weed than yes!
And why exactly would we need to do that? We do not claim to be anything and we do not need to do anything, since we are not trying to convince YOU of anything.
I feel as I am arguing with a very little educated person who carries a lot of hate withing himself.
Are you sure that the Jesus stuff is working for you? For what I can see, you need psychiatric help. Look into borderline personality disorder. You may match a few of the symptoms. Narcisisc personality disorder comes to mind, too.
You don't sound confused to me, either.
Now, Jaybird - he sounds confused. He can't even understand why ex-christians would be annoyed by his preaching.
Ah, Jaybird, this is a private party. Admitteldly it's being held in a public park, but did you bother to read the site disclaimer? There is a link to it in the upper right-hand corner of this page. Please take a read.
I think Christianity is a completely false mind-controlling cult. In fact, I'm convinced that what I just stated is the absolute truth. Still, I don't invade Christian websites to post confrontational comments. For instance, I haven't posted one comment on your little blog.
Perhaps a better analogy would be that because I believe Christianity is false then I should picket outside of your church on Sunday morning with a bull horn. I could quote Thomas Paine or Robert Ingersoll! Do you think I'd be effective in changing anyone's mind in your church with that kind of approach? I don't think so either. Still, that is exactly the approach you are using here.
Frankly, you're wasting your time, and you're quite rude.
And in case you're confused on this point, the reason you are the rude one is because this is our party, and you've crashed it.
A brief description and reasoning by JayBird himself, concerning the name "JayBird"---taken directly from said site:
Quote: "The Jaybird or Blue Jay as it is more commonly known is a bird of beauty but like the crow it is annoying and a nest robber."
Thick with irony, isn't it?
(cont) "This bird is not very well liked by farmers."
Well, we technically "plant" the seed of doubt here. Perfect.
(cont) "This bird is also killed for fun by little kids with bb guns."
D'oh! LMAO!
(cont) "This bird also serves no immediate use for anything but to look at."
Well, we can't SEE him, so what does that leave? LOL
(cont) "It makes me wonder why this has been my nickname my whole life..."
No wonder here---this was the only "truth" I saw over there!
ROFLMAO!
Alan
The moment You escape from the christian cult, you assume full responsibility for your own actions. There is no more blaming any gods or "devils" for your wrongs or mistakes. No more justifying violence and bigotry with bible passages. And no more arrogant assumption that being "saved" makes you superior to everyone else.
Escaping from christianity did allow me to live the way I wanted to, But only because the way I wanted to live was itself ethical and bound by moral principles.
As to your "sin and iniquity" . What are those?
"Broomslug said....No wonder here---this was the only "truth" I saw over there! "
maybe you dont believe it to be true but your still welcome....
"man does not want to be told what to do. They want to live a life
filled with sin and iniquity without any censure."
Well, when I was totally fundie I used to say stuff like this too (I know you are only trying to 'help'). What is "sinful" about using reason and evidence to determine the validity of some claim? And if that claim is that the Bible is the "very Word of the Living God" as I have often been told, and it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, then pray tell me how that is SINFUL?
No, don't read suggested book---instead, re-read "The Holy Bible" by Yahweh, after all, it is "the One Truth". And if you found it to be mythology, good for you. To "trust the wisdom of men" who have written other books about their interpretation of "God's Word" is "foolishness". I'll partake that you may hold on to your newly found freedom.
I tell you again, I'll cut off a dove's head, bleed it into a frosty tumbler, and righteously partake of it, so that you may keep the Truth.
Mr. Grinch said: It is the Christian who wants to be able to do as they please and NOT be held accounatble for their actions!
My question is, on what basis do you make this statement? I am a Christian and I do believe we are all accountable for our actions.
And, what do you consider to be a "wrong" action that you would be held accountable to? Murder?
Exodus 4:24 - And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
Exodus 4:23 - And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Who holds your god accountable? What makes you believe that your actions wouldn't be justified, if your own god, engages and teaches such acts of violence.
Why would your own god, hold you accountable for somthing he(?) endoresed as righteous? All godly acts "are" righteous... right?
How do you feel about your god, killing his own son? or, himself, if you see Jesus as god?
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."
I know you guys hate what you call Christianese, but these are simply my beliefs. I don't see Jesus' sacrifice as murder. And who would I be to hold God accountable?
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."
I know you guys hate what you call Christianese, but these are simply my beliefs. I don't see Jesus' sacrifice as murder. And who would I be to hold God accountable?
>>
Great. They are your beliefs. Not founded on anything real or tangible, but yes - they are your beliefs. But they mean nothing here, on an EX-CHRISTIAN site. So, my question - knowing you posted that verbal discharge on an EX-CHRISTIAN site, just what the heck did you hope to accomplish? What? Were you trying to convert us? Perhaps get us thinking that, "Oooohh, we might be wrong, because he's quoting the bible?" Really though - what was your intentions? I'd like to know... -Wes.
And my second post was to answer joywithoutcondonedmurder's questions. Nothing more.
Sorry, must be a blonde moment. What two worldviews are you refering to? And who are you refering to when you say "which of you two is 'more right' than the other?"
If one is capable of preventing the death of another, but stands by and willingly allows it to happen. Then would you call it accessory to murder?
What do you call murder? How can you be held accountable for "anything", is you are not willing to hold "everyone" to include your own "god", accountable for the things you yourself wouldn't do with a clear conscience? Or... is your god an exception to the rule?
And, why would you "not" follow your god's teachings?
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.
Yes, in human terms to stand by and allow a murder to happen would be reprehensible. But Jesus made it clear that He gave His life; no one took it.
I already stated that I am in no position to hold God accountable for anything. I don't understand everything about Him. But I choose to have faith. You guys already know a lot about my belief system if you are ex-Christians, so why would you even question me on this?
I'm not here to preach; I only stepped in because Mr Grinch said Christians do not see themselves as accountable for their actions, and I disagree.
And I'm not sure what you are referring to when you ask why wouldn't I follow my God's commands.
First off, I think Mr.Grinch speaks the truth when he says, 'It is the Christian who wants to be able to do as they please and NOT be held accountable for their actions!'. This is what is so apparent in modern day christianty, and such is the case in my personal experience with the christians I have encountered throughout my tenure of 'faith', that, yes, christians do NOT want to be held accountable. I'm not going to relate to you all the instances where I have had to "clean-up" after a sloppy christian who thought that by *saying a prayer* (or something else christian-like) he could effectively excuse himself from his responsibilities...
You mentioned "I am a Christian and I do believe we are all accountable for our actions". OK, so I think you might be the first exception I have encountered. Perhaps you should start a church here and teach the many assholes here a lesson? I'll give you credit for stating that "we are all accountable for our actions"; I agree wholeheartedly, regardless of what your world view is. But unfortunately, your sentiment is not that of the brand of christianity that is raising its ugly head today. Just listen to what is going on with far-right christian agenda worming it's way into government politics, education, etc. We have an irresponsible, and backward theocracy creeping into power that seems to very much look forward to the day that the world is thrust backwards into the dark ages, then ultimately into a burning cinder, with all the 'unsaved heathens' roasting in hell! And yes, I get quite pissed off at the prospect of this.
So, those are the two camps of christianity I meant. You, apparently belonging to the more docile, liberally-minded camp. I just wanted to know - with each of these sects constantly at each others throats over their interpretation of christianity - which camp do you belong, and which one is more correct?? Because for every 'Joythruchrist' argument in favour of her brand of christianity, there's going to be someone else arguing in favour of some other brand of christianity, and so on. I still think that if christianity was really 'god inspired', etc, then there would only be ONE flavor of christianity - wouldn't you agree? -Wes.
I'm not in any way saying that I have it all figured out and everyone else is wrong. That would be pretty egotistical. I learn new stuff every day.
But one thing you said that I would argue with is that I seem to be liberal minded. I am really quite conservative in my beliefs, but I see no good coming from shoving them down people's throats. If I get into a dialogue, such as this, I state my views on a subject if asked; otherwise, I don't offer a lot of info. My aim is not to condemn, but to share. And I don't consider it sharing if someone doesn't want to hear it. That would be forcing my views on others. If someone wants to go further in the conversation, then great.
Since you brought it up, I also have a problem with strong lobbying of morals in government. I don't believe that the government will save us. I vote for the candidates that most closely hold my views, just like anyone else would. But I don't think my country will become better by legislating morality.
I still think that if christianity was really 'god inspired', etc, then there would only be ONE flavor of christianity - wouldn't you agree?
My personal belief on this? I believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, and that many men throughout the ages have been confused as to how to understand it. I believe that the problem with so many flavors is not with God, but with fallible man.
Do you know enough to support an organization which you "don't" know a lot about? Are you willing to "die" for your belief? Does that mean you are willing to die for a belief, you "really" don't have all figured out?
joythruChrist: "But one thing you said that I would argue with is that I seem to be liberal minded."
Actually, if you aren't certain of your belief, then its possible you have no idea where you stand, right?
joythruChrist: "I am really quite conservative in my beliefs, but I see no good coming from shoving them down people's throats."
Then how you do you reconcile your "religious" beliefs, with your "moral" beliefs? Are you suggesting the two don't necessarily need to be compatible?
joythruChrist: "If I get into a dialogue, such as this, I state my views on a subject if asked; otherwise, I don't offer a lot of info."
I asked if you condoned murder? You stated that it is not accetable according to human standards... are you suggesting that the human standard is "greater" than your "god's" standard?
joythruChrist: "My aim is not to condemn, but to share. And I don't consider it sharing if someone doesn't want to hear it."
I really want to hear, how you reconcile your belief system, honestly. It's amazing to me. The reason some may think you are "liberal", is because many "liberals", take the title of christian because of "social" needs, but in reality, don't adhere to the biblical guidance, like "murder", etc. So, do you "pick" and choose which biblical scripture you adhere to, or read to your children/family? Or, do they get "all" the scripture?
joythruChrist: "That would be forcing my views on others. If someone wants to go further in the conversation, then great."
Well, even if you're confused, you at least appear civil about your confusion, should anyone feel better if you were to kill in the name of god?
joythruChrist: "Since you brought it up, I also have a problem with strong lobbying of morals in government. I don't believe that the government will save us. I vote for the candidates that most closely hold my views, just like anyone else would."
Are these candidates "gov't"? Then, you believe gov't can save you, to some degree, or you wouldn't vote. Again, if you can't come to terms with your own belief, at least deep enough to discuss the finer points, how do you choose a candidate to support your view?
joythruChrist: "But I don't think my country will become better by legislating morality."
The do you believe in anarchy?
joythruChrist: "My personal belief on this? I believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, and that many men throughout the ages have been confused as to how to understand it. I believe that the problem with so many flavors is not with God, but with fallible man."
And you consider yourself as one of mankind, therefore, you are as confused as everyone else about your religion. Not wanting to sound rude here, but... doesn't that make you an incompetent christian? Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the crux of the matter, to me.
I too once argued that I couldn't hold God accountable for his actions. Whenever something in the Bible documenting some petty, vindictive, angry, bloodthirsty or murderous action on the part of GOD, I'd just blink it away and say, "We can't judge God."
What I was really saying is that I wasn't willing to think about it very much. Now, at this point some Christians will quote "God's ways are not our ways." Fine, but I'd think it would reasonable to expect that God's ways would be superior to our ways. As it is, HIS ways more resemble that of a barbaric tyrant than an inspiring leader. And there is a reason for that -- HE was invented by barbaric people in primitive times. HE was made in their image.
Here's a scenario for you: My son has agreed to kill himself on behalf of his classmates at college. If he kills himself, I have agreed to take care of any college student's debt, so long as that student accepts my son's death as an atonement for their debt.
Does that scenario make a bit of sense? Think about it, we are a tiny race on a tiny planet in a average galaxy in a gigantic universe. From one mile up, none of us appear to exist at all. Yet, my petty little sins will condemn me to an everlasting life of horrific torture in a prison fashioned by a sadistic God. However, if I accept HIS Son's death (whatever that really means, depending on your denominational affiliation) then I'll get to go live with this bloodthirsty Bronze Age deity while most of humanity shrieks and screams in agony for all eternity.
The whole concept is just whacked. The funny thing is, I too used to find justification for it. "God is God, we cannot question.... beep... beep... beep..."
I'm so glad to have escaped that prison. You seem like a nice person, Joy. Hopefully one day you'll be free too.
Wes---if I might point out, there is a crucial over-sight on your part. You had it right the first time. You are completely forgeting about the "Divine loophole" in the theist position. You are talking about accountability, right? Okay, take for example a child molester who is never caught. From the Christian perspective, they would have us believe that this deviant pervert will still be held accountable.... just "later"(if I'm not mistaken, this is what this "Joyfully christful" person is implying)
Okay, clearly, we know that there are people who exist who profess Christ(Christians), but who have molested children. (Just watch the news any given week.) But for the one's who are not caught, Christians "believe", per their Holy scripture, that all they need do is ask their Jesus for forgiveness for their "sins", and be "sincere" about it, and then they get into "heaven" to be with the "Lord".
Christians are always touting about how they're "not perfect", and how "everybody's a sinner", but even so, for argument sake, we can at least say that some will still make into "heaven", or else, no one would. Okay, for the Christians who sin who never got caught, and who presumably do make into this "heaven"----how is that being held "accountable"? Wasn't that "ALL" people will be held accountable?
It's ambiguous, it's arbitrary, it's favoritism........it's bullshit.
And why would you assume that I would think that a child molestor or murderer who professes Christ and turns from their sin would not need to still be given earthly judgment for their crimes? I absolutely believe they would need to serve their sentences.
Joy'--See the above reference. I have shown, cleary, that not "all" people are accountable for their actions. I can even simplify it:
Per Christianity, we are all "sinners". The sinners who never get caught in this "earthly" life, may, or may not, be Christian. For the ones who are Christian and don't get caught--- and thereby "exhonerated" of their "sin" per "Jesus"---they are not held "accountable". They get IN to "heaven". The only way you can logically refute this is to say NO ONE makes it into "heaven"....and surely you won't say that, will you?
My point is that I don't consider Christianity a get-out-of-jail-free card. I have a little difficulty with made-up scenarios, since I don't answer for anyone else.
My only reason for my post on this board was to refute Mr Grinch's statement:
It is the Christian who wants to be able to do as they please and NOT be held accounatble for their actions!
I genuinely do not believe this is true. I don't do as I please and NOT hold myself accountable. I can't speak for anyone else.
So, you are confident about your humanity, even though your religious dogma/doctrine supports such acts. Great, chalk one christian up to having enough common sense, not to use the bible to support their belief system or as a guide in their moral lives.
I feel as though i should appologize for everyone's comments above. Not many of them seemed to understand that this blog was about you, and not them. Nevertheless... I notice that I'm a few years behind ur original post, but, if you read this here goes something...
I was young and was not a active christian for many years. I'm not that old now, still young, but I've noticed the very important difference that God has done for me when I put him first in my life. Maybe there was just a disconnect between you and Him that brought all of this? I will not try to convice you of anything in this blog. I doubt if I'll even find this blog a second time. But, I read one time, "I'd rather live life as if there was a God, and die and find out there wasn't, than life as if the was no God and die and find out there was." But I have found that I know there is, and it comes with spending time with Him. My little cousin had to explian that to me. Here is what she said, "Have you ever been in love? And what did it take for you to fall in love? it took time right? So, to fall in love with Jesus, it takes that same time it took for you to fall in love with your girlfirend. the only difference, Jesus will never leave you when He knows that you kown him."
What I'm saying is maybe you just needed someone to point you in the direction for you to find Jesus again, but everyone yelled at you instead?
Something to think about. But John 3:16 still stands. He also said, "heaven and earth will pass away, but my word shall not pass away" - meaning, what is written in the Bible, God will always be obligated to keep it. he will always be obligated to keep his word - kinda like a promise that he can never break. He's obligated to keep his promise. Try Him on His promise and see what happens. Good luck and God bless.