Tell me about that hell part again?

By David J.

I accepted Christ at the age of five and since that time I have taken my journey very seriously. I read the Bible and prayed regularly. I graduated from a Christian school, then a Christian university and also from a Bible School. An underlying theme for the last 30 years of my life since my conversion was the concept of hell. Most Christians read a verse or two of Romans, say a prayer, and never worry about it again. I would have done the same if we were talking about getting a prize at the end. As it was explained to me we were actually dealing with whether I would be tortured around the clock for millions of years. With that at stake there could be absolutely nothing more important than making certain you will never incur that fate. I read, studied and asked questions to make sure that I wasn’t missing anything. I read that blasphemy guaranteed I would be tortured (Matthew 12:31) so I spent years agonizing in my thoughts to never think anything that could be considered blasphemous (If you ever take a minute to try not to think about something you will have a taste of the 30 years of agony I went through.) I also read that there is a narrow gate that “few” find (Matthew 7:14). If there are 2 billion Christians, is that a “few”? How do I make it in the few? I also read that if I sin intentionally it is all over for me (Hebrews 10:26). I’ve only done that a thousand times so what hope is there? I also read that God created some people for the purpose of destruction (Romans 9).

I spent every day wishing I had never been born because that is the cursed day I became eligible for hell. If my parents had not had me, I would not have to face even the possibility of the most horrible, terrifying thing that could ever happen to anyone. I never had children and still do not understand how selfish someone would have to be to have a child if they believe in hell. If hell is what I was told it is, a one in a million chance was too great a risk. Unfortunately, it is closer to two out of three since most people aren’t believers. My existence was a tortured one believing all of these horrible things, but I held firm to my faith and kept searching for answers from God and the Bible. I stayed in church, tithed, repented frequently and tried to live a “normal” life. Inside I felt hopeless and depressed, and the only thing that helped was alcohol. It took my mind completely off of my frightening reality. I only drank when I was depressed which was all the time. I became a severe alcoholic and turned to the Bible for the answer to that. My problem got worse not better as the Bible’s answers were the reason for my struggle to begin with.

A year ago today (6/4/07) I had my last drink. When thoughts of hell came up I said to myself that I would put that on the shelf for now and think about other things. During the past year, I stumbled on a website that said that the “Greek New Testament is a complete mess”. It challenged the readers to research it for themselves. I did, and he was right. I began reading the Skeptics Annotated Bible and could not believe I ever thought the Bible was infallible. I started to read about contextual criticism and read “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman. When I believed the Bible was infallible, it felt hopeless, and I drank to drown that out. Now that I see it has mistakes and has been severely altered by men, the constant fear and depression is gone. It is ironic to think back a few years to me quoting scripture to try and stay sober. Now that my beliefs have changed, I have absolutely no desire to drink. I still believe in God and don’t know what to believe about Christianity. I will continue to read about both as I did about the Bible and see where the evidence takes me. I’ve been reading this site for some time and my anniversary seemed like the perfect day to share my story.

78 comments:

ExFundie said...

I enjoyed reading your post, because I tormented myself with the same thoughts as a Christian. On good days, I'd thank God over and over again just for being real, and for saving me from hell. When I felt certain I was going to live forever in heaven, I was such a happy fellow. However, on those days where I'd fallen into one of my old habitual sins, I'd worry of eternal damnation. Hebrews 6:1-6 used to scare the shit out of me, as did Galatians 5:19. Anyway, no I have no guilt and no worry of hell. It is obviously a load of buy-bull bullshit. Now my worry is that I will die and be gone and forgotten. To be honest, I am very afraid of not existing... why? I don't know. I'll tell you one thing though, I now savor every minute with my kids and wife. I see them as my ticket to having a lasting impact on this world. Anyway, thanks for such an honest post. I trust that with your ability to reason, you will find a truth you can be comfortable with.

billybee said...

David,

I have been sober for going on 18 years. (I'm 55)

I had lots of stops and starts prior to my current years of sobriety. The difference has been that when I lost my faith in the supernatural, I figured out how to stay sober. Before that I was depending on a source of strength outside of myself to keep the cork in the bottle. Once I took responsibility for my choices, I started doing great...

Hang in there and continue to read, read and then read some more!! You are in for a HUGE awakening.

Listen to the great advise that is sure to be posted by others....we are all thrilled you are here!!

psychman said...

David,

Great post. Welcome to our community.
You're halfway there buddy don't let up.

Keep thinking and questioning on your journey to rationality.

Later

Lance said...

Thanks for the post David.

One of the last straws for me before I pitched all the fundamentalist stuff was when my 9 year old son (he is 12 now) told me he wanted to die. After probing some I was able find a bunch of confused and twisted religious beliefs that were at the bottom of his depression.

A fundamentalist would not call his thoughts confused and twisted, as they were standard christian bullshit, but obviously they were way too much for a child to make sense of, and his brain crumbled under them.

He is doing much better now, and while he is still on the road to being able to fully enjoy life, the further I get him away from his christian beliefs, the better he gets.

Teaching the doctrine of hell to children should be considered child abuse.

Good luck on your journey.

Lance

Pull The Other One! said...

Nice post David.

I too used to think about the implications of what the bible was actually saying, and it also caused me a lot of mental anguish.

My sister had a version of the bible called 'Good News for Modern Man'. I remember thinking that it should have really been called 'Good News for About 2 percent of Modern Man'.

Anonymous said...

Congratulations, David, on putting down both the bottle and the beliefs that drove you to pick it up. You've been dry for a year--that's a real achievement.

It sounds like believing in a god who would send most of his children to eternal torment drove you to torment in the here and now. Keep on exploring what you think of your place in the world and how god and your religion fit into that. Let us know what you find, and hopefully other people around you, too. Whatever it will be, it surely makes you much happier than what you grew up with.

charles said...

The pharisees and priests of works religeon are to blame for the misery you and many many others have experienced David. The God of the Bible is not out to 'get' you. By making people fearful and uncertain they can control people and at they same time they pervert and take away from the Gospel of Grace. We should be confident and grow in knowlege and grace. Some teachings have made me depressed before but that is because these people dont teach the full Gospel. As Jesus said they compass the world to make one convert and then make him twice a child of hell as themselves. Its right to make people aware of Gods judgement (actually as im sure you know Jesus will be doing the judging)and of the existence of Hell which is taught as a real place and of eternal torture. OK thats judgement and retribution for the mockers and scoffers and the wilfully ignorant but the Bible teaches that He did not make this place for men but for the devil and his angels and God is not willing that any should go there. Would God undertake the tremendous work of the cross to abase and humble Himself before fallen man just to nit pick ? Of course not, salvation is not a question of works or scoring 60 % how could it be we wouldnt get 1 % so its free grace for the repentant sinner. operative word repentant and sinner, you are a sinner I am a sinner and until we get our new ressurection bodies we will continue to be sinners. Are you a mocker and a scoffer and unbeliever ? Do you curse God or persecute His people ? Of course not, by your own admission if I understand what you have written you believe and hope for salvation.
Your faith will be rewarded on the day whatever doubts you have God keeps His promises and we need to stand on those promises - remeber He still gave Israel to the Jews of the OT even when they were apostate because He had promised it to them. This is not to condone a Gospel of lewdness or wilful sinning because that is symptomatic of an unrepentant person who loves the world more than Jesus.
So a very few will be saved ? Its still a great multitude of millions. Shall the clay question the potter ? What do we know about the secret thoughts of the lost ? Most unsaved people i talk to really dont give a stuff about the gospel and hate God for no good reason at all even tho He pours out His grace upon them, they wont even look and wont be warned 'the hypocrites in Zion are amazed by fearfulness' their lookout, we dont see survivors of plane crashes complaining about the way providence dealt with them, soldiers think themselves lucky of their companions fall alongside them and they live they dont curse and question providence when they are back at home and the slain are in the ground.
May you forgive my seeming presumption in writing these things and hoping that perhaps a word or two of them may at some time be a help
regards charles

Telesmith said...

Whew, Charles let out a stinker!

"So a very few will be saved ? Its still a great multitude of millions. Shall the clay question the potter ?"

Yep folks, he actually said that.

Charles, where is your mind friend? Have you given any of the ideas in your post a moments serious thought? Have you ever truly made a critical backwards glance toward your faith without the intention of reinforcing it? Really?

I'm not going to point out stupidity after stupidity in your post at this point because that would be patronizing. You're an adult. So, I'm going to give you the opportunity to go wipe your own ass first.

webmdave said...

Charles is a troll.

His posts will be deleted.

webmdave said...

Charles is Andrew the troll, otherwise known as Emmanuel Goldstein and a bunch of other ridiculous monikers.

Charles, you're severely sick. For the sake of anyone who cares about you, get some help.

Alan A said...

I was really interested to read about how your drink problem lifted itself from your shoulders when you gave up believing in scripture and the supernatural. That's excellent. It doesn't fit though with the Alcoholics Anonymous approach which I think is to solve drinking problems by actually introducing a belief in the supernatural. David's experience would suggest that AA's approach is completely wrong. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? (My knowledge of AA is only second-hand, BTW, so I might be wrong myself here.)

billybee said...

Speaking for myself (and possibly others) the A.A. system is nothing but a little common sense with a whole bunch of mumbo jumbo piled on top.
Alcoholism is serious business. I would always recomend professional help over the "higher power" technique of A.A.

There is a lot of information available on the subject. A person should be informed about the possible dangers of joining ANY group that claims to bring relief through "spiritual" application...

A few sessions with a REAL counselor is what got me on the road to sobriety. If A.A. isn't a classic example of the 'inmates running the asylum', then I don't know what is.

ryan said...

I was planning to respond to charles' post, once I had stopped dry-heaving. His post will be deleted, so for those of you who were too late to read it, charles sounded like a preacher on a smalltown station with a learning disability.

charles had, as his "message", the notion that we didn't hear the "right" xristianity. xristians are, understandably, embarrassed by their own religion, and try to make their bronze-age war god sound like Mahatma Gandhi. Now while I have known Unitarians and other liberal types who believe in a rational deity, I have yet to hear if this is the correct religon charles and his ilk and talking about. So far, no one has ever specified exactly what church or denomination offers the true xristianity.

I am all too familiar with the verses that David and others quoted. Every fundie that ever wandered in here has said that no one can be an exxristian, and that we were never saved to begin with. But that is not what the bible says. I got this shit preached at me every sunday in the church where I grew up, with the result that no one experienced any peace of mind at all. Many of them are using tranquilizers. Most of them are too scared to leave--leaving the church gets you damned for sure.

You all know what I am saying. This is nothing new. But as I told billy a while back, I am frequently started by the similarity of the stories here. I wonder just how many of us are really out there.

billybee said...

Charles;

When you go into a resturant you will see a sign that says; "We reserve the right to refuse service"..

Please,chuck, go eat your turd hoggy somewhere else so that the rest of us can enjoy our meal.

ryan said...

charles, I can see that I failed to make any kind of a point at all.

1) I do not believe in a right religion or a right xristianity. Religion is bullshit.....all of it. So far as your particular brand of bullshit goes, the biggest batch of crap that was ever preached was that an all-powerful god needs to have someone butchered in a Roman execution before he can forgive the smallest of our misdemeanors. Read that joke at the right margin of the front page. A real close second to this is the folly of needing someone like you to explain our lives to us. I live my own life and think my own thoughts. The very thought of a clergyman's authority makes my skin crawl. That includes people like you who just love to preach.

2) You know perfectly well that the bible teaches "falling from grace". Read the verses in the thread and provide the proper meaning if you think otherwise. And do not give me that context shit. None of the nt writers had thought things out very well and their stuff is chaos. If a student in PHL 101 would turn in that kind of shit, the red ink would flow like the goddamned Suez Canal.

3) About atheists not sticking to their guns. Nice analogy. Try understanding it this way: I believe in freedom; freedom of thought; freedom of speech. I will go to my grace unholding these principles. Understand?

muttmutt said...

I realized that the christians stole half (not all) of thier stuff from pagans. I know you still have the hell belief, but as a wise atheist put it, it doesnt matter what you believe, you can still go to another religion's hell. I realized that there MIGHT be a God, and I also realized that christian religion is so full of errors its laughable that I believed it for so long.

ryan said...

charles' last several posts were deleted. Too bad, this was shaping up into a real crap fest.

muttmutt said...

I do not buy into the "not the right brand of christianity" BS, because ive been to seven different denominations before i deconverted from christianity. I was even an end times fundie before i got my head out of my arse. Went to a catholic, s baptist, lutheran, A of G, (some denomination I dont remeber) pentecostal, jew for jesus churches before I decided christianity wasnt right for me.


"If the truth shall set you free, why are you a slave to jesus?"

muttmutt said...

Oh and I heard what lee strobel wrote about Pagans stealing from christians, its utter Bullshit, since christianity came AFTER Paganism. History tells the story that christians refuse to tell the truth about.

billybee said...

Back to David J,

The fear of eternal Hell is not easily scrubbed from the mind of some people. I've learned to accept that this 'phobic fear' may likely stay with me to some degree for the rest of my days.

Many of the folks here admit to an ongoing struggle with this deep and diabolic fear. If you continue to face this fear, it will diminish in power over you.

The fear of hell causes a deep wound. Christians and even your own personal thoughts will try to rip off the scab in order to pull you back.

To get the upper hand over booze, I had to decide that I would no longer allow the destructive thinking of my past to determine my future. This came to include rejection of the doctrine of hell.

I had to build a strong defense against the inevitable return of subconcious fear and doubt. The more I peeled away the layers of B.S., the stronger I grew in my understanding of the real and wonderful world we all inhabit.

Has it all been worth it?

In all honesty, it has been the most worthwhile effort that I have experienced thus far.

SCOUT said...

DUDE; I BELIEVE YOU BE ON THE ROAD TO RECOVERY! MY WIFE & I GOT SO FED UP W/ TRYING TO DODGE ALL OF GOD'S FIERY DARTS OF HELL, GUILT, & CONDEMNATION, WE FINALLY TOOK A STAND & SAID ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! WE'RE TIRED OF TRYING TO TIP-TOE AROUND THIS PETTY, BI-POLAR ROLLER COASTER GOD, WHO LIVES IN AN EGGSHELL! WE GOT SO DISGUSTED W/ FAILURE OF PRAYER, GOD'S INDIFFERENCE TO CREATION, HIS HATEFUL ATTITUDE. WE TOLD HIM TO TAKE HIS TOYS & GO HOME. WE'VE LIVED BLISSFULLY EVER SINCE. THE SENSE OF RELIEF IS OVERWHELMING! I WISH YOU THE BEST IN YOUR QUEST FOR TRUTH & FREEDOM. KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN & USE COMMON SENSE.

Anonymous said...

I tried to post earlier and must have done something wrong. First of all, thanks for all the support and encouragement. Knowing there are others that have gone through the same things is a big comfort. Charles may not realize I have the background to write an entire sermon refuting my new outlook. The point is I started looking beyond what was IN the Bible and into what it is and where it came from. That is when my life turned around. In response to the AA comments, I tried AA as well. If it helps people that is great because alcoholism is so serious. My problem with AA was that they had the only way and if you don't do it their way you will relapse or just be a "dry drunk" (WTF?). If you fail in AA they say you didn't follow the program, if you succeed without it you must not have been an alcoholic. Sounds a lot like religion doesn't it?

Thanks again for everyone's input and welcoming me to the board.

M said...

You´re right! Most of Christianity is a sham. Only a few will find the Truth.

But let me tell you this, there are not two destinations but three:

Firstly, those who know God, who love Him and have a relationship with Him will spend all eternity with Him.

Secondly, those that do not know Him and do not actively lead others astray, in other words the majority of mankind, will have their souls dissipated upon death. They will cease to exist, they won´t suffer eternal damnation. God will have mercy on them and simply let them die. We are not born to live for eternity but are presented with the gift of eternal life. This is why the Messiah says it is better to drown yourself in the sea than lead others astray. It is better to be cease to exist than be thrown into the Abyss. These people are niether born from below nor born from above.

Thirdly, those that lead others astray such as popes, imams, religious leaders, politicians, media, academia, etc. will experience eternal separation in the lightless Abyss, the place where God it not. Hell is not flames of fire, the word fire is used symbolically to indicate judgement. Fire is used to separate elements. There is no physical burning in hell. They are weeping and crying, not gasping for air and screaming in pain. The only dimension in the Abyss is time. These people have been born from below, that do the task of Satan, that of deceiving people.

To blaspheme the Set-Apart Spirit, means to willingly turn one´s back on God to a point of no return. They don´t even desire forgiveness. The fact you desire forgivness means you aren´t even anywhere close that point.

The Catholic Church preach that there are only two destinations and that fire is physical because it causes people to fear, in other words they can be controlled better for their purpose., like make them stinking rich. Unfortunately today´s Christian society is still heavily influenced by Catholicism.

God is a loving God, there has to be this third option of destruction (dissapation of one´s soul) if He is to be considered loving. He is not sadistic, He is merciful, fair and just.

David, please read www.yadayahweh.com. It will help you understand so much more.

Spirula said...

*yawn*

Another version of punishment and hell. Always trying to get god off the hook for being a disgustingly narcissitic and sadistic brat.

Here's were you should have stopped:

cease to exist

This is the fate of everyone.

Yadayadayaweh and away!

billybee said...

charles, andrew & M; Three personalities..NO WAITING !!!!

M said...

"This is the fate of everyone."

Only if you want it to be. If you trust in your own strength for salvation then your outcome will be a cessation of existence. If you wish to associate with those in the animal kingdom, that there is no god, that "we can do as we please because there is no god therefore I am acountable to nobody" then your outcome will be as you desire. Who said God doesn´t answer our desires? If you desire to not know Him He will respect your decision and you will cease to exist upon death. You will have no memories, you won´t even know that you ever existed.

Therefore my only advise to those with the same mindset is this: cease the day because when you breathe your last you will truly cease on the day.

ou812 said...

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH SCOUT! OKAY,I'VE HAD A COUPLE BEERS, BUT I'M OKAY WITH THAT. I CAN RELATE TO THE GUILT THING FROM MY EARLY BIBLE READING DAYS. I THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD REVOLATIONS THE FIRST TIME I READ IT THRU, UNTIL SOME BRETHERN GOT ME CONFUSED. WHATEVER! I DON'T READ THE BUY-BULL ANYMORE AND HAVE NOT FELT GUILTY ABOUT BEING HUMAN SINCE.

Anonymous said...

I related to this so well. It makes me ANGRY that you you ended up drinking to avoid thinking of the threat of hell....how can God be loving it that's what happens when people believe his word? Congrats on a year!

Hellbound Alleee said...

Ah, you don't understand, it is I who knows the Truth. You see, God Loves blah blah blah, salvation, blah blah spirit, blah blah sacrifice, blah, True Christian blah blah one-way to hell blah eternal blah torment blah tabarnack de Calisse de Sacrement Jesu Christ.

How's that?

Anyway, the hell part was really the deal-breaker on my road, too. A lot of people simply think, "well, no god would be that cruel," and simply cut that part out. And so begins a road to casting off the need for an invisible man to love you. I think there's some similarity to alcoholism there. I think that so many people have honored this idea of unconditional love, that no one questions it. They tell you you must have it in order to be whole.

And that's one of the traps of AA.

How wonderful to not need unconditional acceptance; to know you must earn love rather than just take it. That's grown up. Cults and christianity offer this free love which implies helplessness, hopelessness. I can understand the lift it offers to those who have hit rock bottom as they say, but doesn't the concept of unconditional love help us let ourselves become this needy in the first place? If The Group (whatever group) didn't offer it and say how noble it was in the first place (enabling, co-dependancy), maybe we wouldn't see it as an option.

Maybe we wouldn't see Unconditional Love in objects or substances that make us feel as good as "unconditional love" from the church, the cult, or the Group.

David Knapp said...

Well said Charles!! He spoke with grace and a few people after him spoke with hatred. Webmdave why would you delete his posts? What did he say wrong? Was it because he didn't include the word bullshit at least 5 times in his post?? I think you want to delete his post because he said something that made you think you might be wrong. God offers grace and man wants to distort that grace and focus on hell. Jesus died on the cross to offer us God's grace. As long as we live on this earth sin will always be with us. This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to become like Jesus. If I sin then I accept the grace from God that He freely gives. He covers over my blunders so why in the world would I worry about hell?

webmdave said...

Knapp,

You're on the wrong side on this one. Charles is a loony troll that comes here for no other reason than to stir things up. He is not really a Christian and has on occasion sent me some nasty viruses through email.

He posts under various nicknames and IDs and he can be quite verbally abusive.

You really shouldn't be so quick to judge. Isn't that against your religion?

billybee said...

I understand that debate can be beneficial to setteling differences between people and their ideas. But.....

I wonder if there are some folks who read the stories on this site and want/need to share their story, but they are afraid to post because they fear being attacked or challenged by these fucking Christians that think it is their duty to barge into a conversation that they have not been invited to participate in...

Insecurity is the emotional trademark of any religion. People that need our support the most are intimidated by the disrespectful buzzards that circle and swoop on the most vulnerable 'prey'.

I'm really getting sick of it....

How about a little respect for those who are seeking 'sanctuary' from the attack of those they are trying to get away from?

Aren't there a billion sites where Knapp and his type can preach and debate to their hearts content?
Why can't we have ONE, just ONE site where people can SEEK SUPPORT and not have to worry about being criticized and judged and condemed....?

F U C K !!!!!!!!!

Webmaster Dave; I do not envy your position but this has been bugging the shit out of me for quit a while. Sorry if this is the wrong time and place to vent, but, I really don't get it..."EX - christian".....?

boomSLANG said...

"Hit-and-run" 'Knapp is back, with...Well said Charles!! He spoke with grace and a few people after him spoke with hatred.

Dear David,

Feel free to delineate in concise terms what "speaking with grace" entails. Until you do, I'll assume it's simply a type of all-encompassing religious jargon that deals with anything and everything that seeks to affirm "Christianity".

As far as "hatred", according to scripture, it is perfectly acceptable to hate ideals and concepts. For example, it is perfectly fine, and even encouraged, to "hate" the concept of "sin". Thus, it should be perfectly acceptable for me/us to hate the concept of being held responsible for something we had zero choice in..i.e.."original sin". In fact, to compare by analogy, said concept is the equivalent of stashing a bag of dope in my car, and then calling the police on me---commonly refered to as being "framed".

And to be crystal clear, while I most definitely hate the aforementioned Christian concept, "sin", that is still secondary to the fact that I simply disbelieve that said concept, and all other Christian concepts, have any referent in reality. As always, I am waiting on evidence that "Christianity" is the One, Universal Truth---evidence other than quoting scripture, emotionally appeals, and bare assertions. Again..'waiting.

'Knapp.....Webmdave why would you delete his posts?

Here's one hypothesis---because "Charles" has no intention of listening to one thing anyone who disagrees with him has to say; he apparently cannot even entertain the ideas of his opponent, nevermind, agreeing with them. Hence, the religious meme has done its job; it is prohibiting free thought. By the looks of things, you are in the same boat.

'Knapp inquires...What did he say wrong? Was it because he didn't include the word bullshit at least 5 times in his post??

A few things for your consideration...

1) using profanity is irrelevant to whether a person's position is correct, or not.

2) If I say someone's position is "bullshit", I'm telling them conditionally. In other words, I'd be happy for them to prove me wrong.

3) Bottom line: 'Don't like it?...click-off.

'Knapp continues....I think you want to delete his post because he said something that made you think you might be wrong.

Let's review # "2", above:

I may be wrong!!! Are you listening? You, the Theist, are the one making the claim in the affirmative. Therefore, the onus is yours, the believer's, to present evidence for your "God". As I've pointed out dozens, and dozens of times, you believe in a deity whose attributes/characteristics are mutually inconsistant with logic/reality..i.e.."married bachelors", "square circles", etc. Until you overcome these inconsistancies, I simply have no logical reason, nor obligation, to believe your biblegod exists. 'Waiting on you, pal.

'Knapp...God offers grace and man wants to distort that grace and focus on hell.

Rememeber when I previously brought up the fallacy of "bare assertion"? Well, you're doing that very thing, above.

'Knapp...Jesus died on the cross to offer us God's grace.

Ditto.

'Knapp...As long as we live on this earth sin will always be with us.

Ditto.

'Knapp...This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to become like Jesus.

Irrelevant premise---"trying" doesn't get you jack-squat; it is ultimately belief that determines whether one is "saved", or not.

'Knapp...If I sin...

There is no "if"; YOU ARE A "SINNER". If this confuses you, feel free to explain how one can be a "trucker" without a "truck". 'Listening.

'Knapp...I accept the grace from God that He freely gives.[If I sin]

Good grief, this again?

'Knapp, try to listen closely---this alleged "salvation" that we all allegedly "need", is only "freely" given to us in as much as a mugger "freely" gives you the choice to surrender your wallet, or have your brains turned into red confetti. In other words, follower of Christ, it is nothing less than coersion.

'Knapp...He covers over my blunders so why in the world would I worry about hell?

Please enlighten us once and for all.....

When it's all said and done, was Jesus' "sacrifice" to cover the "blunders" of all of mankind?.....or only those of "Christians"? It sounds an awful lot like the latter to me. 'Listening, though.

webmdave said...

Billy,

The forum section of this site is considerably more insulated from fundie intrusion. The blog is the front door, so to speak.

Aspentroll said...

I'm not against banning the likes of Charles, Andrew and M, but by the same token I enjoy seeing hem get their asses kicked on this site. I guess it's just a malignant
type of humor that I alone enjoy. I believe that Webmaster Dave also gets a kick out of the humorous bashing that these idiots keep coming back for.
You must admit that if this site was all one sided it could be a little boring for some.
I enjoy the ass kickings in a Clint Eastwood, "make my day", sort of way. I feel very "uplifted", so keep the bashings coming.

billybee said...

Yeah, I know. It would be boring if it was all just one sided. And, we all have the option to click off if we wish to.
I love this site and have seen nothing else to compare.....but.....

Sometimes I get sick of the fundies "craping in the lobby".

Thanks Dave ...I feel much better.

reasonrules said...

M: "...that there is no god, that "we can do as we please because there is no god therefore I am acountable to nobody...."

This ASSumption just pisses me off to no end. Where do you get off professing that anyone who does not believe in a god automatically feels that he/she is not accountable???? It has been my experience that XTIANS are the ones who feel they are not accountable b/c they are forgiven, because "the devil made them do it" or "god told them to do it." No responsibility taken, just blame it on the invisible entities.

On the other hand, the atheists in my life know that they are very much accountable - to each other, to mankind, to animals, to our planet. They care. This is the reality, not that ignorant drivel that xtians spread amongst each other that atheists are immoral and believe they can do whatever they want.

You are entitled to your beliefs, but stop libeling.

Astreja said...

David Knapp: "This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to become like Jesus."

Become like Jesus? Whatever for?

Fig trees are quite lovely. No way I would curse one, let alone curse it because it didn't give Me fruit out of season. It would seem that JesusGawd's omniscience doesn't extend to botany.

Likewise, I think pigs are cute and intelligent. I have no intention of ever sending a herd of sweet little porcine critters off a cliff to their deaths.

"...why in the world would I worry about hell?"

If it exists (and I doubt that very, very, very much), your first priority should be worrying about why such a place exists at all. Here is My 'take' on the whole hell question.

David Knapp said...

For the record I am not a fundamentalists. If you want to see a true fundamentalist go to http://defendingcontending.com.

boomSLANG said...

"Hit-n-run" is back, with...For the record I am not a fundamentalists. If you want to see a true fundamentalist go to http://defendingcontending.com.

So in other words, when one is considering religion, whether it be critiquing it, or considering adopting it, it boils down to which dog has the least fleas.

Previously, "hit-n-run" 'Knapp stated...He[biblegod & Co.] covers over my blunders so why in the world would I worry about hell?

To which I responded:

"Please enlighten us once and for all.....

When it's all said and done, was Jesus' 'sacrifice' to cover the 'blunders' of all of mankind?.....or only those of 'Christians'? It sounds an awful lot like the latter to me. 'Listening, though."


??????

boomSLANG said...

As predicted, David Knapp is evidently either refusing to answer, or cannot answer, my question on whose "blunders" have allegedly been "covered up"..i.e..whose "sins" have been "paid" for. Or wait, perhaps he's retreated to his own blog to address the questions, as he did Astreja's responses?

Here are those responses, for anyone who's curious:

David Knapp: "This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to become like Jesus."

Astreja: Become like Jesus? Whatever for?

Knapp, from his blog: "Because He is what we should be."

Me: Says who?

Astreja: Fig trees are quite lovely. No way I would curse one, let alone curse it because it didn't give Me fruit out of season. It would seem that JesusGawd's omniscience doesn't extend to botany.

'Knapp, from his blog..."You might curse one when you know within days you are going to be hung on a cross. I am sure that you and I have done much worse in our not so serious stressed out moments"

Me: Pardon me, but didn't "Jesus", the all-knowing "Son of Yahweh" know about, and agree to, the approaching "sacrifice"? Or are you suggesting that it was against "His Will"? 'Listening.

Astreja...Likewise, I think pigs are cute and intelligent. I have no intention of ever sending a herd of sweet little porcine critters off a cliff to their deaths.

'Knapp, from his blog..."Please tell me in what way are they intelligent. I do agree that the potbelly pig is cute though."

Me: There is evidently some serious disagreement has to what is meant by the word "intelligent". So that inquiry is senseless, at this point.

Previously, 'Knapp..."...why in the world would I worry about hell?"

Astreja...If it exists (and I doubt that very, very, very much), your first priority should be worrying about why such a place exists at all. Here is My 'take' on the whole hell question.[see link]

'Knapp, from his blog..."You doubt that it exist[s] which means that you are not sure whether it does or not. Also here is my take on the whole hell question, but don’t forget about the grace that is more dominate than hell."

Me: That's odd, you call-out others on their uncertainty, yet, you admit that you cannot prove your position; that it rests on "faith", while you arrogantly presume to "know" that "hell" exists.

Further, until you define "grace"(like I've asked), your assertion that it "dominates" a place that you cannot even prove exists, becomes even more nonsensical. 'Waiting on your answers, 'Knapp.

Astreja said...

To David Knapp, who for some odd reason has decided to answer us on his blog rather than here:

Yes, I doubt that Hell exists -- But I do not think its existence to be very likely at all. It is, in My opinion, infinitely improbable.

But I refuse to behave like a scared little believer and kiss your pretend saviour's butt to avoid the exceedingly slim possibility that I *might* be barbecued 24/7 till the end of time.

If your god exists and actually does such horrific things, it is unworthy of respect and I shall not worship it for any reason whatsoever. It is dishonourable to accept the "grace" of a torturer-god.

As for pigs... They are more intelligent than dogs. Just google 'pig intelligence' and you'll find lots of information.

And as for the fig tree problem, are you serious in suggesting that Jesus cursed that tree because he was having a bad day?

(Although a diagnosis of 'poor impulse control' does go a long way towards explaining Biblegod's deadly hissy-fits...)

M said...

Copied and pasted from my earlier post:

Firstly, those who know God, who love Him and have a relationship with Him will spend all eternity with Him.

Secondly, those that do not know Him and do not actively lead others astray, in other words the majority of mankind, will have their souls dissipated upon death. They will cease to exist, they won´t suffer eternal damnation. God will have mercy on them and simply let them die. We are not born to live for eternity but are presented with the gift of eternal life. This is why the Messiah says it is better to drown yourself in the sea than lead others astray. It is better to be cease to exist than be thrown into the Abyss. These people are niether born from below nor born from above.

Thirdly, those that lead others astray such as popes, imams, religious leaders, politicians, media, academia, etc. will experience eternal separation in the lightless Abyss, the place where God it not. Hell is not flames of fire, the word fire is used symbolically to indicate judgement. Fire is used to separate elements. There is no physical burning in hell. They are weeping and crying, not gasping for air and screaming in pain. The only dimension in the Abyss is time. These people have been born from below, that do the task of Satan, that of deceiving people.

Anonymous said...

Hey man... I use to drink like a fish in my early 20's. I gained a bunch of weight from it and it took a lot of hard work to burn it all off. I understand how it is feeling that depressed.

The trouble with most christians is they're fuckin insurance salesmen. They come to your door, mostly figuratively although the really weird ones come literally, and then try to sell you their product. The speech goes somethin like this...

"Hello my good friend. I am Ezekiel and this is my friend Jebediah. We think you would be interested in our Jesus insurance policy. If you follow this short list of rules (throws a big ass bible at you), and don't manage to stab yourself in the neck with a fuckin fork tryin to make sense of it all, then you'll live in a really neato place called heaven where the water is clean (they have Brita pitchers), the fruit contains no pesticides, and holy shit... there won't even be roaches in your apartment."

And so you say "Yo man... that sounds good and all, but I'm doin alright here."

And they say, "Well, OK... but if you don't buy our insurance, our boss is gonna come by later and flame torch your house, but he's got this crazy way of keeping you alive forever so you have to burn for a really long time and it'll hurt and shit... BUT, we don't really care... we're not on commission... so see ya"

And that's about how it goes if you get the ones that aren't prideful... the prideful ones are worse cause they'll stay and argue with you just to be right.

But what do all of these salesmen have in common? They don't CARE about you.... not really. They care about the sale, not you as a person. They could care less if your name is Jeff or Jennifer... they don't care that you have a beautiful little girl named Samantha that was just born last week. They don't care that you enjoy oil painting on weekends or that you love listening to Iron and Wine under candlelight while holding the person you're in love with.

These people are what you call false prophets. They preach that a book that has been around for maybe 500 years at best is the real true infallible word of God. Excuse my sarcasm, but if it's so infallible, then how did it manage to fail to be around before 500 years ago? Doesn't sound too infallible to me.

Here's what I believe... I do actually love the bible. It's a great book... but it's just a book. Do you remember those stories they use to read us as kids that taught us a moral lesson... like maybe there was Dave and Sally and Dave wouldn't let Sally play with his He-Man action figures and then Sally cried because Dave was a mean bastard. So what was the point of those stories? Was it to give us a historical account of Dave and Sally? Well, no... there was no Dave or Sally. The point of the story was the moral. And this is how I see the bible...there are some great things to be learned from it, but it was never meant to be read like a text book. If you do, you'll only find errors and frustration.

God is not in a book... not in preachers or in churches or anything else the next guy wants to sell you. The real God is in the heart... in loving others and in truth. And hell isn't some fiery pit that a pissed off diety casts us in... hell is something we make for ourselves with our choices in this life. I fully believe heaven and hell are spiritual places... joys and miseries of the heart and soul that linger with us into eternity. Jesus was always trying to get people to take their minds off overly literal interpretations of things... and 2000 years later, people still have a hard time with that.

I do believe in God and Jesus... and I believe Jesus died so we could have an abundant life. Forgiveness was never the point of Jesus's death... Jesus didn't die for some legalistic reason like he was paying our bail money so that some irate judge wouldn't throw us in jail. Jesus died because a heart full of guilt is a crippled and depressed heart. And yet modern churches have found ways to make people feel even MORE guilty than when they first came through the fuckin doors. Jesus died so we'd know how much we were loved and because people that are truly loved have the passion and fire and joy in them so that they can accomplish anything. Did you see The Notebook with Ryan Gosling and Rachel McAdams? You remember how Noah spent years fixing up that old house for Allie and how he was drunk most of the time because she wasn't with him and there wasn't a damn thing in the world he could do about it? That's how God feels for us... that's why he suffered for us... because he made us, these beautiful precious creations, each and every one of us, and he wants so bad for us to be with him and to be loved and cherished and to grow into magnificent beings full of love and joy... and there's not a damn thing he can do about it if we don't want to. Free will is a bitch, but it's also real...and love isn't worth shit if it's not real.

I don't want to sell you anything... But I don't want you to toss away the chance of a beautiful relationship with God because you were misinformed by religious idiots. I want you to seek and find truth for yourself. To really know God, you can't rely on someone else's opinion... no his, hers, or mine. You have to desire truth above all else. God desires to be known... like a beautiful woman wants you to know the deepest parts of her heart. She's not going to make you love her... she wants you to DISCOVER just how beautiful she is... on your own and with honest and true desire. So my advice is fuck what everyone else says...forget the bible if it bothers you, forget churches, forget what I'm saying if it bothers you... but go up into some mountains and take in the horizon, go out into a grassy field at night and lay out and stare at the stars, just take in all the beauty of creation and look at yourself...look at the design behind your own body, the thought and function behind it. It's an elegant, precise, graceful machine... and no more an accident than a Ferrari.

Whatever path you choose, my friend... I wish you the best and I hope you find what you're looking for!

Anonymous said...

David,

Good thing you are very bothered about hell, because you understood the consequences of sin. You fear God, which is a good thing. You can choose not to join any religion if you want, but I do hope you won't let go of your faith in God.

God loves you, and you will surely be rewarded if you serve Him faithfully.

Sincerely,
Your Christian Friend

Astreja said...

Grey, the Christian Fiend: "Good thing you are very bothered about hell, because you understood the consequences of sin. You fear God, which is a good thing."

Fearing eternal punishment because one might have caused offense to an omnipotent, omniscient torturer-god is not a good thing at all, Grey.

It is dreadful. Simply dreadful.

It is psychological abuse perpetrated by religious mythologists of our primitive past, and perpetuated by ongoing fear-mongering indoctrination of the young, the naïve, and the vulnerable.

I maintain that a god who tortures cannot love, and that a god who loves will not torture.

boomSLANG said...

Christian sock-puppet(David K?) chirped...Good thing you are very bothered about hell, because you understood the consequences of sin.

Pardon, but the only "sin" that subsequently leads to this alleged "Hell", is nonbelief. That. Is. It. Other than that, any other "sin", "trespass", etc., is 100% pardonable, and thus, entirely irrevelvant, provided one believes. Of course, with this policy, "heaven" could feasibly end up with more "sinners" than "hell". Ironic?

"Grey" continues...God loves you....

You left out a crucial stipulation, one that Christians just love to ignore. You left out the word "if". Yes, "God wuvs you", IF you reciprocate that affection with belief and unwavering worship. If not?... it's off to hell with you!!...where, there, you will be tortured - not punished, but tortured - for eternity!

"Grey"......and you will surely be rewarded if you serve Him faithfully.

Aaaaw, that's adorable! So, similar to a flea-bitten dog that gets rewarded for faithfully fetching the newspaper for its master, the Christian is trained and rewarded to do good deeds to please its master. Fetch, boy!...fetch! Beg, boy...beg!

Pathetic.

Anonymous said...

Charles

The god of the bible does not even exist. If there is a god then God is not the author of the bible.

David

I am glad that you have stopped drinking. Don't worry because Hell does not exist. The logic of biblegod is that of a homebuilder who builds houses so that he can set them on fire. Any god who creates people so that he can burn them in "Hell" deserves to burn in "Hell" himself. Christianity is a huge load of shit, and part of a 3 headed monster along with Judaism and Islam.

M said...

Astreja (and Nathan), please read my post the third above yours. God is loving, therefore hell is not a physical burning place but a place of complete isolation, where the only suffering is emotional. But this is only for those that actively lead others astray. For those that do not choose Him and prefer to just live life as they please He will mercifully just cause them to cease to exist. He gives us the opportunity to live forever with Him, but if a person chooses otherwise He will simply dissapate their souls. He loves us therefore He has provided a way out. All He wants is a father-to-child relationship, one of trust and respect, He doesn't even want us to bow down before Him, He wants us to walk with Him. To bow down is what Satan wants, he wants to be worshiped and submitted to. God doesn't want us to submit, but wants us to choose.

Grey, "God loves you, and you will surely be rewarded if you serve Him faithfully." We need to call out on the name of Yahuweh for salvation, His Son's Name is Yahushua (not Jesus). When you say "serve Him" it sounds like religious duty, the opposite of what He wants. He only requires that we WALK with Him. Salvation comes from repentance and belief but not from works. Please read www.yadayahweh.com, you'll be enlighted as a believer.

Boomie, God is in the Salvation Business, He comes to our rescue because of our sin. When we confess our sin through humility and trust in Him for salvation He imparts us with His Spirit, and when He looks at us, even though we sin, He sees perfection. Only blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgivable, it's when a person continually ignores God and doesn't want His forgiveness, eventually coming to a point-of-no-return. We are not perfect but have been humble enough to recognise our weaknesses. Those trusting in their own strength and blatantly ignore God, ingnorance being one factor, are "gathering wood (Numbers 15:32-36" for their own judgement. Notice the metaphors: If you do not keep the Sabbath rest, trust on God for your salvation, you will reap your own destrcution, you're basically building your own fire.

boomSLANG said...

Dear Elsie("M"),

Until the webmaster gets tired of your unfounded, unsubstantiated, and quite ridiculous religious blather, I'm more than happy to point out the logical fallacies of Christian doctrine.

Here we go...

You said...God is in the Salvation Business, He comes to our rescue because of our sin.

- As I just stated on another thread, in Christian theology - and this is inclusive of your wacky interpretation, too - there is only one "sin", and that is nonbelief. ALL other "trespasses", "Commandment"-violations, "sins", etc., are fully paradonable.

- If you would, please put into logical terms why "sin" is, quote, "our sin"? Please explain how it is morally "just" to hold an entire race of people responsible for something they had zero free will in.

- In Christian theology, we are presumably "all sinners". This suggests that we cannot avoid "sin", because if we could avoid it, then we could avoid being "sinners". So, for your biblegod to "come to our rescue" for something we have no free will to avoid, is contradictory, and nonsensical. It's the philosophical equivalent of a "Lifeguard" tossing a nursery full of toddlers into a community pool, and then trying to call himself a "hero" for coming to their "rescue". The concept is moronic; it is asinine, and I intend to point it out wherever/whenever I have a chance.

- Lastly, whose "sins" have presumably been "paid for", again? Was that everybody's?...or only Christian's? Be honest..lying is a "sin".

'Listening.

You blather on....When we confess our sin....

"Confess" to something we cannot avoid, and further, to something we didn't initiate? You are insane, and so is your theology.

You....[When we confess our sin]through humility and trust in Him for salvation He imparts us with His Spirit, and when He looks at us, even though we sin, He sees perfection.

Yes, thank you for pointing out, and reinforcing, the idiocy of the concept of "Salvation". See, Elsie? It has nothing to do with "sin"; the "sin" is OVER-LOOKED.....it's swept under the carpet!...shhhhhh. Thus, the entire function of "Salvation" is for one reason, and one reason only, and that for biblegod to get its "Glory"..i.e..to get its ass kissed. 'Good luck with that.

Only blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgivable....

Dear "Yahushua",

Eat shit.

Sincerely, boom'

"Blasphemy" is a blast for me!

You continue...it's when a person continually ignores God and doesn't want His forgiveness, eventually coming to a point-of-no-return.

Promise?

You....We are not perfect but have been humble enough to recognise our weaknesses.

Guess what? I'm humble enough to admit my imperfection, without needing to be encouraged to do so, and without being scared that I'll displease some invisible spook in the clouds, if I don't admit it.

You....Those trusting in their own strength and blatantly ignore God, ingnorance being one factor, are "gathering wood (Numbers 15:32-36" for their own judgement.

I get wood quite often, thank you.

You....Notice the metaphors: If you do not keep the Sabbath rest, trust on God for your salvation, you will reap your own destrcution, you're basically building your own fire

Who determines what is "metaphor", and what it literal? Perhaps there's no "literal" biblegod, eh?

Astreja said...

M: "God is loving, therefore hell is not a physical burning place but a place of complete isolation, where the only suffering is emotional. But this is only for those that actively lead others astray."

So your god chooses to torture them, specifically, rather than "dissipating" their souls, too?

I rest My case: Your god is a torturer unworthy of My respect.

sconnor said...

M,

The Gospel of John: John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

And what it also tells us...

John 3:16: "For God so hated humanity that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever does not believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life being tortured for all eternity in Hell without hope of forgiveness."

Now, that's one fucked-up psycho-god.

--S.

M said...

Astreja and Sconnor,

Think upon the lines of fairness and justice. These people who actively lead others astray are purposefully and knowningly deceiving people, so as to lead them away from God. This is only a small percentage of people considering the size of humanity. Romans 1:18-32 is a good summary of these people. If you bother to study Man, especially those in power, you will notice how they use eloquent speech to manipulate and control the masses for their personal gain regardless of the truth. The rest of mankind will simply cease to exist, that's what they believe will happen, "there is no god" therefore to them there will be no God. God is merciful, gracious, fair and just. Don't expect to be rewarded for not wanting to be with Him.

Nice try Sconnor, but in John 3:16 the distinction is between eternal life and death, not life and eternal sorrow: "For God so loved the world that He gave (didomi - delivered, bestowed as a gift, put Himself in our place) His one and only Son (huios - term of relationship and association), that whoever relies upon (pisteuo - trusts and believes in) Him shall not perish (apollumi - be destroyed, be lost, abolished, put to an end, and become dead) but have eternal life (aionios zoe)."

Your decision is made on this earth, not in the afterlife.

THE ACE said...

A slight paraphrase based on M's
last post.."If you bother to study
Christianity, especially those in
power, you will notice how they use eloquent speech to manipulate and control the masses for their
personal gain regardless of the
truth."

Yes, God is merciful and just. I'm
sure the people in Myanmar have
been praising him for weeks now!

Please give up. You haven't even come close to proving God exists.
We've all been when you are, and
got sick and tired of it.

boomSLANG said...

"M" is back, with...Nice try Sconnor, but in John 3:16 the distinction is between eternal life and death, not life and eternal sorrow: "For God so loved the world that He gave (didomi - delivered, bestowed as a gift, put Himself in our place) His one and only Son (huios - term of relationship and association), that whoever relies upon (pisteuo - trusts and believes in) Him shall not perish (apollumi - be destroyed, be lost, abolished, put to an end, and become dead) but have eternal life (aionios zoe)."

Previously, (prior to this, in the past) in another thread (not this one), I asked "M" (evangelist, apologist, annoying loitering Christian) a very pointed question about this alleged "gift" of "Salvation" that was "bestowed" (forced by coersion) upon us. That question, paraphrased, is the following:

- Whose alleged "sins" were presumably atoned for? Was it the "sins" of ALL of mankind, or only the "sins" of "Christians"?

Waiting.

Dave8 said...

M, a God that is Omnipotent and Omniscient is "Fated" to their own Knowledge - they lack Free Will; justice, love, compassion, etc. Such a God is "useless" and serves no purpose in anyone's life.

A "believer" who accepts an Omnipotent and Omniscient God, accepts an Omni-Impotent God.

A "believer" who refuses to accept their "own" beliefs, and "consequences" (Omni-Impotent God), undermines their "own" credibility to be "sane" or "logical". Such a person is driven on pure "emotion" alone.

Here's a little quote from me to you... "Vision without a connection to Reality = hallucination".

Hallucination: "1. a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hallucination

M, your God does not exist in the "context" of "logic".

If you want others to believe, or have "faith" in you, based on your "experience(s)", then, please provide a method to distinguish your "experience(s)", from a hallucination.

If you can’t provide a method to distinguish your comments from hallucination, then the “context” of your comments by your own standard (experience based explanation of something beyond the mind without evidence) is that of “hallucination”.

istillbelieve said...

boom can I chime in here?...is that a trick question?

you asked: Whose alleged "sins" were presumably atoned for? Was it the "sins" of ALL of mankind, or only the "sins" of "Christians"?

The Bible teaches that the atonement is for ANY man that accepts God's grace...Jesus. To do that you ARE becoming a christian.

M said...

Ace, "Yes, God is merciful and just. I'm sure the people in Myanmar have been praising him for weeks now!"

Man is reaping what he has sowed, and unfortunately thousands of people lose their lives in the process. The End is near, all the signs are in place:

"Then (tote - at that time) He said, 'Multitudes (ethnos - races, specifically Gentiles, peoples and nations; large groups based upon religious, political, cultural, or geographic ties) shall be awakened and rise up (egeiro - become aroused from a deadly sleep to stand up and make war) upon and against nations (ethnos - races and peoples), and royal rulers against royal rulers. You will hear about wars and rumors of wars. People will be terrorized (throeo - cry out loud, frightened and alarmed). And great (megas - big, powerful, and numerous) hurricanes, earthquakes, and tsunamis (seismos - shaking, commotion, rocking to and fro, and agitation on land and sea) shall come to exist (esomai) down against low (kata) places (topos - inhabited areas), and famines (limos - scarcity of harvests and food), and pestilence (loimos - infectious epidemic diseases that are virulent and devastating, destructive and pernicious plagues), and terrorist activity (phobetron - terrorism and alarming events) and great (megas) signs (semeion - indications, unusual occurrences, and wonders transcending the normal course of nature) shall be (esomai) from (apo - proceed out of) the sky (ouranos - the universe, the abode of stars, and the heavens). But (de) all these things just begin to initiate (arche) the birth pangs (odin)." (Matthew 23:6-8 and Luke 21:9-11)

Don't forget birth pangs come in waves of increased intensity, do I need to mention the pattern from the last 50 years?

To summarise the signs mentioned from the whole chapters, not just the verses written: "world wars, famines, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, pandemics, riotous acts of lawlessness, acts of terrorism, signs in the sky, false prophets, a lukewarm assembly or "church," and an overall aversion to His name."

Ace, regarding your paraphrase of "Christian leaders using eloquent speech...for personal gain." Yes, I too fully agree with you! These Christian leaders are also labeled as men in positions of power as I mentioned earlier. Yahuweh will hold them accountable too. Only a small percentage are actually right, it would help the Church (which is a pagan word based upon the words circle and circus) actually knew His proper Name of Yahuweh.

Dave8, to quote from Craig Winn, the author of Yada Yahweh, you might find this suprising "Man is wont to make God infinite in all areas, saying that He is omnipresent, omnipotent, and all knowing. But Yahuweh only says that His power and mercy are unlimited - as well as His existence. For God to be omnipresent, and thus to be unlimited in scale or size, He ceases to be a unique individual, becoming the universe itself, and thus would be in all things from rocks to slugs. For God to be all knowing, there would be no merit to creation or to forming a relationship with other individuals. These are things He wants to experience, to enjoy, and to grow from. Also relevant, Yahweh specifically tells us that the sins of those who are born anew into His family are no longer known to Him. And He makes no attempt to know those who make no effort to know Him."

And another quote:

"Love is the one thing that cannot be compelled, even by an omnipotent deity. It can’t be forced, bought, stolen, held for ransom, or even manufactured, but it can be earned. It can’t be sold or bartered, but it can be given away. Here’s the bottom line: the capacity to love requires the capacity not to love. If the object of Yahuweh’s affection cannot reject Him, then accepting Him becomes meaningless."

Boomie, regarding the "sin of all mankind" I will search more on that and try get back to you. I think there is more to add to what istillbelieve just said, maybe even another passage of Scripture with brackets and expansion.

And I believe my life is reality, and Man's false sense of utopia through the moral code of political correctness is a hallucination. Define "reality": Hmm... could it be a life of sex, drugs and rock-n-roll?

boomSLANG said...

istill'...The Bible teaches that the atonement is for ANY man that accepts God's grace...Jesus.

Good grief, you really are a novice, arent' you? In any event, thank you.

Hello, "M"?... did you read that? The "Atonement" is only for those who accept "Christ..i.e..only for Christians. We have it from a "True Christian". Therefore, you should really stop deliberately misrepresenting Christianity with your own misguided and misleading "spin".

M said...

Boomie, from your statement I assume you believe His real name is Jesus?

A very short and quick history fact: Jesus isn’t God’s name. "Jesus" was invented in 1629 using the Anglo Saxon "j," conceived around a hundred years prior.

I can go into the original Greek versions of the Renewed Covenant of how it tried to transliterate that name Yahushua into Greek. His Name was also presented 77 times in the Old Covenant in the Hebrew language. Just for interest sake, the Father's Name was mentioned exactly 7000 times in the Old Covenant.

You are accusing me of creating spin? You should rather be accusing those who created the spin in the first place. Try starting with the Catholic Church!

Astreja said...

M: "Think upon the lines of fairness and justice. These people who actively lead others astray are purposefully and knowingly deceiving people, so as to lead them away from God."

Until there is incontrovertible proof that your god actually exists, it is impossible for someone to "knowingly" deceive people regarding any matter pertaining to that hypothetical entity.

And, as humanity is currently dealing with a hide-and-seek deity and conflicting messages delivered to diverse cultures, I contend that it is the alleged god who is the deceiver here.

But the bottom line is this: No sentient being, anywhere, is deserving of eternal punishment.

"Don't expect to be rewarded for not wanting to be with Him."

I don't expect it. I have never wanted such a 'reward'. Whatever gave you *that* idea?

boomSLANG said...

"M"...from your statement I assume you believe His real name is Jesus?"

"Jesus", "Christ", "Christo","Yahweh", "YHWH", "God", "Dog", Son of God", "Son of a Bitch, "Spirit", "Sprite", "El", "Goddammit", "Yahushua".....you know, the guy you believe gave his life to pay for "the sins of mankind"---when of course, we know that would be a blatant lie, even if the myth it was based on, were true. That guy.

continues....His Name was also presented 77 times in the Old Covenant in the Hebrew language.

Yes, yes, and "thetan" appears a few hundred times in "Dianetics". Therefore, "Scientology" must be be "True".

M said...

Romans 1:18-25 "Ungodly men suppress the truth.... That which is known about God is evident within them, for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the cosmos His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew of God, they did not revere Him as God. They became futile in their speculations, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, exchanging the radiance of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man, of nature and animals.... They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator."

In these words in Romans 1 we find pastors, priests, rabbis, scientists, teachers, religious clerics, etc. all consciously disregarding the truth because it isn’t good for business. Their punishment is just, they close the door to Yahweh, they have placed themselves above God believing themselves to be superior. What strikes me is that they have all received knowledge of the truth but yet disregard it for personal gain.

Astreja, God's existence is undeniable, His Word is Truth, He has proven Himself truthful in His Words. Plus archaeological evidence proves that events that happened in Scripture actually did happen exactly as He said they did. He has a 100% accuracy record in fulfilling prophecy, down to the very day. His Genesis account fits perfectly into current scientific evidence. He is telling the truth, therefore He exists.

He tells us in Luke 16 that even if a person was raised to life many would still not believe. They have already made their choice, and when confronted with evidence they still disregard it.

Boomie, according to Scientology, copied and pasted from theownersmanual.net: "Nor shall you go up by steps to My altar, that your nakedness may not be exposed on it." (Exodus 20:26) This seems self-explanatory, and its primary meaning certainly lines up with Yahweh’s consistent sense of decency, modesty, and propriety. But in hindsight, there may be a secondary, underlying (and even more important) lesson. Pagan religions from Babel onward employed a system of initiation by degrees into the deeper mysteries of the cult. One would start with innocuous rites and rituals, quite harmless and innocent in themselves. But then, by small steps, the pagan worshipper would move toward a dark world that society would never have tolerated had they seen it blatantly presented. You’d start by attending some polite social functions at the temple of the local deity, but the next thing you know you’d find yourself burning infants alive in the arms of a red-hot statue of Molech. Today’s Freemasons begin innocently with secret handshakes and funny hats, but by the time they’ve reached the thirty-first degree, they’re offering blood-curdling secret oaths honoring false gods like Allah, Shiva, Osiris, and Lucifer himself.

I believe Yahweh is telling us that we aren’t to approach Him by degrees. We can’t. We’re either His children, or we’re not--there are no halfway believers, no novices or initiates. Like all children, we grow from infancy to maturity, but we are never only partially in Yahweh’s family.

AtheistToothFairy said...

'M' wrote:
God's existence is undeniable, His Word is Truth, He has proven Himself truthful in His Words. Plus archaeological evidence proves that events that happened in Scripture actually did happen exactly as He said they did. He has a 100% accuracy record in fulfilling prophecy, down to the very day. His Genesis account fits perfectly into current scientific evidence. He is telling the truth, therefore He exists.

'M',
Fasten you seatbelt and watch this.......
I DENY YOUR GOD's EXISTENCE !!

See, so now god IS deniable, just that easy to do for those who actually use their brains.
I'm willing to bet plenty more here would also 'help' in denying your undeniable god to.

To say god is 'truthful', would firstly assume there is such a god who wrote your bible book.

Secondly, that his 'word' never contradicts itself (books have been written on the plethora of contradictions), that it never gives out false knowledge (e.g. bad science facts), and always agrees with secular history (the bible history tells outright lies and/or it's fable stories can't be confirmed).

No biblical prophecy can be shown to be of a supernatural origin.
The prophecies were either written after the fact, or were made to happen by believers just like YOU.

If you really believe you have archaeological evidence for the existence of say, jesus, then please bring it forth, for you will be the very first one to do so.
I'll even settle for proof concerning the story of The Exodus; and I don't mean a single chariot wheel either.

Genesis is clearly a huge huge fable.
Anyone who still believes that fable is how the universe/life was formed, need their head examined by a shrink and quickly.

Oh, and I just love this last line of yours.

"He is telling the truth, therefore He exists"

So going by your own logic here, then because we all know the devil tells lies, he therefore can't exist, correct?

If I told you that it was going to rain tomorrow and it does, does that make me a 'god', just because I happen to tell 'a truth'?

If god actually existed and had anything to do with writing your bible book, then he would have inserted some advanced knowledge into that book, whereby it wouldn't have been recognized or understood for centuries.
Other than your bible writer's bad ESP of future events, we got NADA to prove god holds special knowledge.

Sorry to tell you 'M', but there is zero evidence for your god, other than inside your own matrix world god delusion.
Of course, you won't listen to what anyone here tells you, because you've decided that god MUST exist, to save your sorry ass from misery and death, so therefore, he does exist to you. So enjoy the feelings your god delusion provides you, but the rest of us would much rather live in something called REALITY.

ATF (Who dares your god to come down here and fight me, man-to-god)

boomSLANG said...

"M"... God's existence is undeniable

I deny that there exists a God.

Wow. That was easily refuted, wasn't it?

AtheistToothFairy said...

boomSLANG said...
I deny that there exists a God

Boom',

Now you went and done-did-it.
We are up to 2 denials now.

Don't you know that denying 'M's god 3 times, will have the same result as it does when one says "BETTLE-JUICE" 3 times.

POOF
End of god

ATF (Who thinks Bettle Juice was a far more interesting 'god', than the bible god ever was)

boomSLANG said...

ATF,

Notice that our statements of denial are worded differently. While I certainly wouldn't count on "M" to catch it, technically, he could try to tell you that you are implicitly conceding that "God" exists, but you "deny" her. The way I worded my statement, he'd have a harder time doing this(with logic). Please be careful to not leave yourself "open" like that in the future, or else, "God" just might start existing. And lord knows, I would rather be dashed to pieces, than give up shrimp. They're just too tasty.

Sincerely, boom'

AtheistToothFairy said...

boomSLANG said...
Notice that our statements of denial are worded differently. While I certainly wouldn't count on "M" to catch it, technically, he could try to tell you that you are implicitly conceding that "God" exists, but you "deny" her. The way I worded my statement, he'd have a harder time doing this(with logic).
----------------
Boom',
Good point !!
I guess one has to word things like a lawyer would, when it comes to these god believers.
After all, they do have a way of twisting scripture to fit their own agenda, don't they Boom'.

Please be careful to not leave yourself "open" like that in the future, or else, "God" just might start existing.

So I guess you are saying that I can get anything to exist, simply by uttering things like this:

I deny your unicorn's existence (Presto--instant unicorn)
I deny your talking snake's existence (Presto--instant talking snake)
I deny the Loch Ness Monster exists in my bathtub (Presto--I'm now famous and rich... and moving to Hawaii)


ATF (Who's now inviting the whole EX-C gang to Hawaii, to bury the volcano god properly)

Astreja said...

M: "Astreja, God's existence is undeniable, His Word is Truth, He has proven Himself truthful in His Words."

Um, what part of 'circular logic' don't you understand, M?

"Plus archaeological evidence proves that events that happened in Scripture actually did happen exactly as He said they did."

False. No worldwide flood. No exodus from Egypt.

"He has a 100% accuracy record in fulfilling prophecy, down to the very day."

False. Here's a list of failed prophesies.

"His Genesis account fits perfectly into current scientific evidence."

Except for talking snakes. (Checks Her mailbox again, just in case the shipment came while She was out)

"He is telling the truth, therefore He exists."

'He' has not been proven to exist, therefore 'He' is incapable of telling anything.

However, if the Bible were an accurate account of your god and its behaviour, I have no intention of joining that particular family.

I deny the existence of your god, as the Bible shows that it is too fucking stupid to exist. (Let alone wield superhuman powers without blowing its own godhead off...)

And I'll thank you not to insult Shiva again. I'll have you know that He and Parvati and Ganesha are close personal friends of Mine. Osiris is quite okay by Me, too.

ATF, if the fight between you and Biblegod ever goes ahead, I volunteer to be the ring girl. Think I'll need a lot of Bristol board, or should I just make up the sign for Round One?

AtheistToothFairy said...

Astreja said...
ATF, if the fight between you and Biblegod ever goes ahead, I volunteer to be the ring girl. Think I'll need a lot of Bristol board, or should I just make up the sign for Round One?
---
Hi Astreja,

Well, I'm pretty sure that god will chicken-out and not show up, so I'll win by default.
Therefore, you won't need more than one big piece of Bristol board to announce the winner....aka ME.

Now about your job as 'ring girl'.
That would be *wonderful*.
That is, if some fundie xtian zombie doesn't insist on having the job as a ummm, DEAD-RINGER.


ATF (Who wonders if biblegod will have to cover his sun-bright face during this sold-out fight?)

stronger now said...

ATF to Astreja:"Now about your job as 'ring girl'.
That would be *wonderful*."

I second that! Even though the biblegod will not show up I'd still buy a ringside seat!

M said...

ATF... Just because I don't accept what you say doesn't mean I am not listening, reading and considering. I actually do read what you guys say, even have more than just a quick look at the weblinks people provide. Yahuweh teaches me to read with an open mind, not to be stupid, to seek after wisdom and knowledge. According to the dictionary defintion "to listen" does not mean that I must "accept" what a person says. The problem is, all your (as in atheists) messages are the same "you must provide proof of god's existence, until such a time then as far as I am concerned there is no god... even though I do not have to provide evidence because as the current situation stands I win regardless and will simply deny anything you say."

ATF:
Secondly, that his 'word' never contradicts itself (books have been written on the plethora of contradictions), that it never gives out false knowledge (e.g. bad science facts), and always agrees with secular history (the bible history tells outright lies and/or it's fable stories can't be confirmed).

There is not one Biblical contradiction, here is one weblink confronting supposed contradictions, if you care to read. Please read the end section, the bit where they provide the typical mistakes that people do who try contradict the Scriptures:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Bible_contradictions.Islam

If you wish, try give me one, or a few, you have not found in the list and let's see if I can provide clarification.

ATF:

No biblical prophecy can be shown to be of a supernatural origin.
The prophecies were either written after the fact, or were made to happen by believers just like YOU.


Let me turn this around and ask in the manner an atheist would: Care to provide evidence proving this claim?

Just to let you know that the Dead Sea Scrolls were dated to well before Yahushua's birth, using secular standards. They prove the existence and age of the Old Covenant Scriptures, therefore your statement claiming that prophecies were written after the fact or just made up is absurd, especially concerning prophecies related to Yahushua, of which there are hundreds, not just one or two but hundreds, well over 400 hundred. Yahushua is also the most documented person to have ever lived, even according to secular standards, not even secular historians deny His existence.

Now just to give you some insight on just one little prophecy, and this is just one of many like this:

In 538 BCE Daniel wrote "Seventy weeks of years (shabuwa') are decreed for your people and for your set-apart city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring forth everlasting righteousness, to seal up the revelation and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Set-Apart. Know and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks of years. The way shall be built again, and the means of separation, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself." (Daniel 9:24-26). BTW, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain many copies of Daniel and are dated to be 200 hundred years before Yahushua's arrival.

Then consider:

"And it came to pass in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, when..I [Nehemiah]..said to the king, ‘If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, I ask that you send me to Yahuwdah, to the city of my fathers’ tombs, that I may rebuild it.’ ..So it pleased the king to send me." (Nehemiah 2:1-6)

A 19th century Scotland Yard director (is that title good enough?) Sir (Whoaaa, slow down, too many titles...) Robert Anderson dated the "20th year of Artaxerxes" to 445 BCE, his father, Xerxes, died in 465, when Atraxerxes took the throne in 464 BCE. He gave the command to Nehemiah (almost a hundred years after the prophecy was given by Daniel) to rebuild in 444 BCE, in 395 BCE Jerusalem was completed (rebuilt). It took the other 62 weeks of years until the Messiah walked into Jerusalem. Daniel declared 69 weeks of years until Messiah would walk into Jerusalem. This 69 weeks equates exactly to 173,880 days using the Hebrew calendar of 360 days to a year, or 476 solar years and 25 days by our reckoning. He arrived in Jerusalem on Monday, March 28, 33 CE, exactly as foretold, and not so coincidently on the 10th of Nisan on the Hebrew calendar. According to the Exodus 12 chapter concerning the festival of Passover an unblemished lamb was to be taken in by each family on the 10th, and then it was to be slaughtered at twilight on the 14th day of the month of Nisan. He walked into Jerusalem on the 10th, was declared innocent by Pontius Pilate on the 14th and crucified later that same day at twilight. Pilate's letter to Tiberius Caeser can be found at the British Museum, which was written on the Tuesday after the crucifixion explaining why had had Him crucified. Exodus was written about 3300 years ago.

The last week miscounted for is to do with the Tribulation, which takes 7 years long, or 1 week long in the terminology used. And if you read the Scriptures and understood prophecy, history of the Jews and mankind you would've known that Yahuweh has not dealt with the Jews since after Yahushua's crucifixion and will pay attention to them when the Tribulation commences not long from now, in 2026 CE. Daniel's prophecy contained many different things in one little passage, yet fulfilled down to the exact dates and years, twice over, and it matches the Exodus prophecy too.

I was going to go very deep into the Messiah's crucifixion but I then this post would become far too long for you guys to read and consider. Here is just a brief list of some of the prophecies fullfilled by Yahushua, http://www.lightofmashiach.org/prophecy.html.

And the science part? I will post that soon, maybe not today, but you will actually see that the Genesis account is an exact description of current scientific and archaeological findings. The truth was always there, it's just Man has blurred it with centuries of his own traditions.

boomSLANG said...

but you will actually see that the Genesis account is an exact description of current scientific and archaeological findings.

Really now? Please find me a serpent, snake, or any reptile that can speak "Hebrew", or any other human language. Thanks.

AtheistToothFairy said...

To 'M' on Daniel 9:24-26

'M' wrote:
In 538 BCE Daniel wrote "Seventy weeks of years (shabuwa') are decreed for your people and for your set-apart city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring forth everlasting righteousness, to seal up the revelation and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Set-Apart. Know and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks of years. The way shall be built again, and the means of separation, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself." (Daniel 9:24-26).
--------

'M', here is some related material on the time period around 538 BCE......

Here's a posted discussion on Daniel's prophecy, from our very own site:
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/03/i-dont-have-enough-faith-to-be.html

Daniel 9:25-26

G&T (335): Here’s one that will really amaze you. Daniel predicted that the Messiah would die in 33 A.D. He would be “cut off” 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. He predicted the city and the temple would then be destroyed, which was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Kyle: That sounds pretty amazing. Let’s examine your claim to see if it stands up to analysis. First, let’s read the passage.

G&T (335): Sure. The passage is Daniel 9:25-26.
“Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

Kyle: Why don’t we keep reading to the end of Daniel 9.

G&T: Okay.
“The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to the sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

Kyle: Let’s crunch some numbers. How do you get A.D. 33 out of this passage?

G&T: We start with the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. That was the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C.

Kyle: Wait a minute. According to the Bible, Daniel lived in the time of Cyrus. From Daniel’s point of view, wouldn’t the decree of Cyrus in 539 B.C. be a more appropriate “commandment to restore and build Jerusalem”? The decree of Artaxerxes came a century after the time of Daniel.

G&T: One would think so, but the decree of Cyrus was only for rebuilding the temple. The decree of Artaxerxes was for rebuilding the city of Jerusalem.



From: http://www.goatstar.org/can-the-biblical-wars-of-extermination-be-reconciled-with-the-image-of-a-loving-god/

Billy Sands says:

"The bible is just full of errors. For example, Jer. 25:11-12: states “This entire land shall become a desolate wasteland. Israel and her neighboring lands shall serve the king of Babylon for seventy years. Then, when seventy years of captivity are over, I will punish the king of Babylon and his people for their sins, says the Lord. I will make the country of the Babylonians an everlasting wasteland.” (In the book of Daniel, the author states that the prophecy is about Jerusalem, and NOT Israel, as Jeremiah clearly states). Jeremiah and Daniel were also both wrong about the length of the exile. The Babylonians took Jerusalem in 587/586 BC (rewriting the bible p154) and Cyrus the Great (not the mysterious Darius the Mede of Dan. 9:1) conquered Babylon in 538 BC (rtb p156). He also proclaimed that the Jews could return home in the first year of his reign (Ezr. 1:1-4). This is at most 49 years, and even if we are generous and take the start of the prophecy as 597 BC, when the Babylonians first laid siege to Jerusalem (the bible uneathed p293), that still only totals 59 years. During that time, neither Israel nor Jerusalem lay desolate (tbu pp 305-308), and Babylon was not destroyed by Cyrus. In fact, Alexander the Great (356-321 BC) may have considered using the city as his capital (The Babylonians An Introduction p67). In other words, the prophets of the bible were just plain wrong!"

From: http://www.atheistforums.com/theism-and-evolution-t7686.html

Jeremiah 29:10 Tells us the Babylonian Exile will last 70 years. 2nd Chronicles 36:21 tells us that this came about. However, the elapsed time from the destruction of the temple (beginning of the exile) in 586 B.C., to the return of the Israelites to their promised land after Cyrus overthrew the Babylonian Empire in 538 B.C. was 48 years, and not 70.

From: http://erichaas.blogspot.com/2007/10/daniel-part-2.html

"Chapter nine [Daniel] jumps back to the non-existent reign of Darius, this time identifying him as the son of Xerxes (Daniel 9:1). There was a Persian king by the name of Darius, but he was the father of Xerxes, and he didn’t rule until 425 BC, at which time anyone who lived during the reign of Nebuchadrezzar would have been impossibly old. Daniel tries to salvage a failed prophecy of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 29:10), by changing Jeremiah’s 70 years (until the re-establishment of the kingdom of Judah) to 70 weeks of years, 490 years (Daniel 9:24). Unfortunately for Daniel, nothing special happened at the end of the 490 years (about 96 BC) either.

Daniel then talks about a Messiah (“annointed one”), a prince who will, after 7 weeks of years (49 years) will make it possible to rebuild the temple (Daniel 9:25). The first temple was destroyed in 586 BC; 49 years later would be 537 BC, which is about the time Cyrus the Persian gave the Jews permission to rebuild their temple. Then, after 62 weeks of years, Messiah will be “cut off”. This would be about 104 BC. This might be a reference to Onias III, a high-priest who opposed the Seleucids, but he was executed in 171 BC. For the week (7 years) after that, Seleucid persecution was at its worst, which seems to fit the rest of the verse. In 168 BC, Antiochus IV took Jerusalem and ordered the temple dedicated to Zeus. This fits with Daniel 9:27. In 165 BC, the temple was cleansed and rededicated to Yahweh."


From: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/chris_sandoval/daniel.html

God replied by sending the angel Gabriel to deliver an inspired commentary on Jeremiah's prophecy (Daniel 9:20-23). Gabriel explained how God planned to bring all the prophecies of old to their final and complete fulfillment, atone for the sins of the Jewish people, usher in a new era of everlasting righteousness, and restore Jerusalem and the "most holy place" (Daniel 9:24-27). Here I quote the prophecy in the Revised Standard Version, with a major deviation in verse 25:

Jeremiah had predicted that the Babylonian Exile would last seventy years. However, our author apparently believed that seventy years of desolation and Babylonian rule in Judah were not enough to atone for the sins of pre-Exilic Jerusalem. Despite the rebuilding of the Temple, the Jews in his lifetime still suffered under the oppression of a foreign empire as punishment for their sins.

Therefore, Gabriel reinterpreted Jeremiah's seventy years as seventy "weeks" of years (cf. Genesis 29:27-28; Leviticus 25:8; 26:18,21,24,28; Numbers 14:34)--i.e., seventy sevens of years, or 490 years in all. This idiom has parallels in Greek literature: Aristotle (Politics VII.16) and Gellius (Attic Nights III.10) spoke of "hebdomads" or periods of seven years much as we speak of a decade.[37] The author may have had in mind the failure of the Jews to leave their farmland fallow every seventh year as required by Old Testament law (2 Chronicles 36:21--cf. Exodus 23:10-11; Leviticus 25:1-8,18-22; 26:34-35,43).

This 490-year scheme is subdivided into three periods: seven sevens or 49 years, sixty-two sevens or 434 years, and one seven or 7 years. To make his scheme fit real history, our author artificially broke off the seven sevens and made them concurrent with the sixty-two sevens, making them almost superfluous. If he did not have a seventy-week scheme to defend, he could have simply eliminated the three words "seven weeks and," and the rest of his prophecy would have made perfect sense without them.


There is much more in this article, but my post has already grown too large.


'M',
I'm far from an expert on bible prophecy, but it sure seems that both the bible writers and our current apologist, will twist, bend, jump through hoops or whatever it takes, to make it seem that one can predict future events.

Frankly, I have yet to see anyone predict a detailed future event, other than by using the "shotgun method" of doing so, which relies upon getting a 'hit' after making dozens of predictions.

I stand by my guns on this subject of being able to predict the future and await your god or any human being, who can show me such a supernatural capability.


ATF (Who is getting really tired of how xtians twist everything they claim, into a pretzel, just to force-fit it into their god scheme)

AtheistToothFairy said...

'M', how about this failed Ezekiel Prohecy?

This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/jftill/prophecy/Ezekiel4.html

Note: The best material starts about 2/3 down this very LONG debate page.

Here is a sample of why the math in this so called prophecy doesn't hold water.

Thus when Ezekiel predicted that the punishment of the house of Israel would last 150 years [days] and that, contrary to what Jeremiah thought, the punishment of the house of Judah would last 40 years [days], he was predicting, as noted above, that repatriation of the two houses would happen about the same time. As time passed, however, it became obvious that the exiles from the house of Israel had not been gathered back to their homeline within the 150 years predicted by Ezekiel, so a later editor changed the 150 days to 390. That time, however, has long passed too, and the exiles of the house of Israel or the northern kingdom remain the lost tribes of Israel. Hence, rather than being an example of amazingly accurate prophecy fulfillment, Ezekiel 4:5-6 is an example of a prophecy that failed miserably


ATF (Who wonders if Ezekiel is still flying around in those UFO's, that some claim he saw)

boomSLANG said...

ATF,

It's called creative shoe-horning. And the socks smell like unrefrigerated gorgonzola.

AtheistToothFairy said...

'M' wrote to ATF:
ATF... Just because I don't accept what you say doesn't mean I am not listening, reading and considering. I actually do read what you guys say, even have more than just a quick look at the weblinks people provide. Yahuweh teaches me to read with an open mind, not to be stupid, to seek after wisdom and knowledge. According to the dictionary defintion "to listen" does not mean that I must "accept" what a person says. The problem is, all your (as in atheists) messages are the same "you must provide proof of god's existence, until such a time then as far as I am concerned there is no god... even though I do not have to provide evidence because as the current situation stands I win regardless and will simply deny anything you say."
----
'M',
I have no idea who you are quoting here at the end of your paragraph?

Speaking of open minds.
If my mind had been of the closed type, I would have ignored all the problems I saw with your bible and it's proclaimed god entity.
Therefore, if I hadn't been the curious and challenging type, I would still be a "god sheep" today, who believed it all on faith alone and ignored anything to the contrary.

No, I don't expect that by just listening to what you read on our site here, that it will make you "accept" that your god is man-made.
Heck, most of us took MANY years to traverse the road from xtian to ex-xtian.
If a person were to make such a life critical choice overnight, then what does that say about such a person, right.

There is not one Biblical contradiction, here is one weblink confronting supposed contradictions, if you care to read. Please read the end section, the bit where they provide the typical mistakes that people do who try contradict the Scriptures:

I think I can safely say, that the majority of us have read many websites/books that show all these bible contradictions.
Granted, many of them (IMO) shouldn't even be listed, as they are too easy for apologist to dispute.

However, in most cases where I've seen apologist trying to rectify these 'bible problems', it requires a whole lot of twisting to reach any kind of continuity.
e.g. Watching apologist try to reconcile the two different accounts of how Judas died, is enough to demonstrate to me that xtians will use pretzel logic to have things make 'sense', which they normally would greatly rebuke this style of reconciliation, if it applied to any other aspect of their real lives.

If one realizes that these bible books were written by ancient men, who's knowledge of the world was extremely limited, where no god was directing the 'show', then it all makes perfect sense that what we see of the end-product, is a philosophical mish-mosh of illogic, magical unsupported claims, many unsupported historical events, and bad science.
Worse, this OT god never appears to anyone today, nor performs any more great miracles for the masses, as he once did often.
Then of course, we have this god's son jesus, who has almost zero evidence from secular history to support his very existence, let alone his magic tricks and massive followings.

If you wish, try give me one, or a few, you have not found in the list and let's see if I can provide clarification.

Thanks, but no thanks M.
It actually hurts me, to watch you xtians (especially fundies) try and twist things to make sense of them.
If there was a bible god in charge, things SHOULD (IMO) make perfect sense to EVERYONE, and wouldn't require someone in our modern times, to have to attend several courses in bible theology and apologetics etc..


......And the science part? I will post that soon, maybe not today, but you will actually see that the Genesis account is an exact description of current scientific and archaeological findings. The truth was always there, it's just Man has blurred it with centuries of his own traditions.

No 'M', if anything is "blurry" here, it's the method xtians use in trying so HARD to make those ancient bible bits of 'wisdom', fit into the REAL universe around us.
If your all-knowing god were real and had 'assisted' in writing the creation story, he would of course have known that we today would be reading it, yes?
He would have seen the necessity of inserting some modern details of knowledge into that creation story. Such details wouldn't have made any sense to the sheep herders, but they would have to us in our more modern times.
No, god didn't bother putting anymore into this creation story than the folks of those era's were capable of dreaming up themselves.

Isnt it odd that no where in the bible, do we find any knowledge that wasn't known to the writers of those era's?
Other than your so called "prophecies", we have nothing extraordinary, nothing remarkable, nothing about the human psyche that couldn't have been known by those men-of-old.

Where is your evidence that some god being wrote this bible book?
Such evidence is not contained within it's own pages, nor did your god/jesus make sure that external evidence would be provided to us, to show it was clearly the creator's written handy work.
Instead, because the bible writers had no proof of their god, they all insisted that one had to believe all this rubbish on faith alone.
Oddly enough, many today use that faith claim for many other supernatural elements that they claim exists... but one can never detect directly.

Faith goes a long long ways, doesn't it "M"?
A long ways that is, into deluding a human brain.


ATF (Who is still trying to find the pillars that holds up the earth, from falling into WHAT)

AtheistToothFairy said...

Boom' Said:
It's called creative shoe-horning. And the socks smell like unrefrigerated gorgonzola
---
Boom',
Thanks Boom' for reminding me of that shoe-horning term.

I often wondered why I felt the need to vomit when I read some of these shoe-horning apologetics.
Who knew the problem was this stinky god cheese the whole time....LOL


ATF (Who thinks most apologetics are just plain 'cheesy', at best)

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