Without god, everything makes sense
Sent in by Korinne
I was raised in a secular household, and never had more than background input from religion. I was always encouraged to think deeply and rationally, and ended up studying science at university.
While at uni, I met some Xians, who invited me over for a chat which ended in a massive discussion about everything under the sun - the reliability of the bible, the reality of god, morals, homosexuality, all that. They were very patient and non-judgmental. We had a really open and honest discussion, but I was still unconvinced. I stayed in touch, though, and eventually went to church and had what I felt was a supernatural experience. I tingled, I felt elated, I "gave my life to Christ".
I still had questions but I suspended my disbelief and threw myself into Xianity completely, alienating myself from all my gay and feminist friends, eating meat again, talking about demons and angels, and adopting quite a superior attitude - all this was encouraged on the basis that my queer friends would only influence me negatively anyway, so better be rid of them, meat is for man and you can't be anything but a meat-eater, the devil is real and our church had the truth, any other reasoning that wasn't ours must be flawed. This church was one of a major church movement in Australia - not a wacky cult.
But my mind wouldn't turn off, and I grew tired of hearing preachers make in-informed comments about the science that was my job. I starting asking questions again ... only this time I found that asking questions in unacceptable. Once you are in the fold, you can't ask anymore. The people who so kindly debated me as an atheist treated me with disdain for having a "lack of faith" as a xian.
So, i talked to atheists. And guess what? They listened, they reasoned, they talked to me about the question, not ad hominem attacks about my supposed "hidden sin" or whatever. And then I realised that if god didn't exist, my whole world could make sense again and I could be free mentally. So I left. I don't believe. I was right the first time!
I was raised in a secular household, and never had more than background input from religion. I was always encouraged to think deeply and rationally, and ended up studying science at university.
While at uni, I met some Xians, who invited me over for a chat which ended in a massive discussion about everything under the sun - the reliability of the bible, the reality of god, morals, homosexuality, all that. They were very patient and non-judgmental. We had a really open and honest discussion, but I was still unconvinced. I stayed in touch, though, and eventually went to church and had what I felt was a supernatural experience. I tingled, I felt elated, I "gave my life to Christ".
I still had questions but I suspended my disbelief and threw myself into Xianity completely, alienating myself from all my gay and feminist friends, eating meat again, talking about demons and angels, and adopting quite a superior attitude - all this was encouraged on the basis that my queer friends would only influence me negatively anyway, so better be rid of them, meat is for man and you can't be anything but a meat-eater, the devil is real and our church had the truth, any other reasoning that wasn't ours must be flawed. This church was one of a major church movement in Australia - not a wacky cult.
But my mind wouldn't turn off, and I grew tired of hearing preachers make in-informed comments about the science that was my job. I starting asking questions again ... only this time I found that asking questions in unacceptable. Once you are in the fold, you can't ask anymore. The people who so kindly debated me as an atheist treated me with disdain for having a "lack of faith" as a xian.
So, i talked to atheists. And guess what? They listened, they reasoned, they talked to me about the question, not ad hominem attacks about my supposed "hidden sin" or whatever. And then I realised that if god didn't exist, my whole world could make sense again and I could be free mentally. So I left. I don't believe. I was right the first time!
Comments
How the hell did you fall for it? Well welcome back to reality. How long were you a self righious Christian?
Funny, i really wanted that experience too, and I think that was why I thought I had found it - just because I really wanted to have found it, know what I mean?
I was out of reality for about 5 yrs, and I am still coming to terms with the fact that I can't get those days back. I feel like I should call everybody and apologise for being completely insane!
Thank pete for information like this website and books and science, without which I may have missed out on more of my life.
Thank you for posting, Korinne!
http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2007/11/christian-morality-not-good-enough.html
It is said that for every addict to recover, he must hit bottom. In 1991 I hit complete rock bottom from alcoholism. I was awake alone at 3am suffering severe withdrawls. I was vibrating in this pool of cold sweat. Every minute lasted for an hour. In great despiration I found a religious program on TV that offered prayer counsulers 7/24. I made up my mind that it was time to give my life to Jesus. I had a great friend and fellow alcoholic who gave himself to Christ, and he always tried to convince me Jesus was my only salvation.
When I got on the phone and started talking to the person, I got down on my knees and prayed the most sincre prayer accepting Jesus into my heart. Well as I was so deep in prayer I felt well........nothing. No emotional experience, not a tingle, not Jack shit. I remember the prayer person seemed to be done with the sciped conversation and I could tell she needed to get off the phone and get to the next sap. I remained in peril and didn't sleep for two more nights. I failed miseralbly at finding Jesus, but I haven't had a drink since. I became sober not because of Christ, it was because I was sick of being a drunk and I had a one year old child that didn't need a fuck up for a father I had real help from real people, mostly my loving supportive family.
People will always tell me that Jesus really was there that night, but I know better. The deeply thinking rational part of my brain remainded in tact that night despite my mental and physical breakdown. It knew I was on my own.
A footnote to that story. Whatever church show I called that night did manage to get my mailing address because they often sent me mail wanting me to send them money which I am happy to say I never did.
I still did profess some level of God belief up until a couple years ago, but after that night I realized the Christian God was a myth.
xristianity makes victims of those who suffer from imaginary problems; those who think they are "sinners" or those who think they are "possessed".But xristianity makes a pig's breakfast of those who have real problems. In my case, depression.
I got tangled up with a gang of zealots who filled my addled brain with all kinds of notions; what the lord was going to do for me. Their lord didn't do a fucking thing--my pain became worse. Then they moved in for the kill: it was my fault; I didn't have enough faith; I was hanging on to sin; I had a false conversion.
But the thing that goddamned near killed me was this sleazy little bitch who told me that I was proud. I spent my days feeling so bad that I couldn't hold my head up; feeling like shit; less than a man, and she said I was proud?
I pulled myself together and got help. I mean real help. Doctors. Therapy. I am doing okay now--still a bit shakey--but wild mules couldn't drag me into a church. I wouldn't so much as piss on a xristian.
I appreciate your story. As for all the nagging xristians who come here, please return to your congregation.
One of the reasons I kept myself from being a self-declared atheist/agnostic for so many years (perhaps 30?) was my sincere desire to have a transformative experience like those conveyed to me by my more religious friends. Like X, I am a recovered alcoholic who had what seemed a spiritual experience when hitting rock bottom, and since that day 31 years ago, have not had a drink. However, no matter how hard I tried to 'give my life to Jesus', there was something about it that always seemed fake to me.
A guy I knew back in the 1970's, a true, dyed-in-the-wool born-again evangelical, was constantly trying to get me to attend his church and find 'true salvation', but I never went. Although I found (and still find) most christians I met to be very nice and sincere (I am not from the bible-belt), there was something -- a feeling, intangible, but very powerful -- that reeked of insincerity when they started talking about God and the J-man. It sounded canned, like a script that a telemarketer would use to sell you something you don't really need. Perhaps there is a sense of fear there, too, when discussing the Big Guy, a fear that if the wrong language is used (i.e., something that doesn't sound like a paragraph from a Pauline epistle), ZAAAAAPPP, your sorry ass is slated for hell and satan.
I didn't come from a secular household, in the sense I was raised a catholic and actually was confirmed, but we wore religion like a loose garment, and my feeling was that if god was all-powerful and all-knowing, then he didn't need me doing particular ritualistic things to be okay -- rather just be good to others and don't lie, cheat, or steal. I could have gone on like that for years, maybe until death, were it not for my wife's insistence on attending a local evangelical church within the past two years (she is now attending membership classes -- yuk). There it all was again, all the canned dialogue, the distrust of intelligence and learning, the ridiculous claim of biblical inerrancy (as a catholic, I never bought into that concept, and indeed, some of my priests admitted that the whole nativity story, miracles, etc. were just a myth, but a useful one). That got me truly examining my belief system, such as it was, and the rest is history. All I can say is, "God Bless the Internet" ;}
Now, all that being said, the part of me (and, I believe, most folks) that wanted that transformative experience is still alive and well. I would love for that to be true (although not the christian nonsense), I would love to reincarnate, to time-travel, to see other worlds, to ride an astral train, talk to Julius Caesar, Abraham Lincoln, feel the oneness of the universe and all that other crap. But as the old saying goes "wishing don't make it so". Welcome to reality everyone, and let's all enjoy it while it lasts.
My dad used the same arguments with me about eating meat. You can't be a christian if you don't eat meat. This along with the idea of Hell are among the many things that turned me away from Christianity. I am happy being a Vegan, and intend to stay that way.
I've never heard any christian say that before.
Ricky, It's because Animals do not have a soul. They do not have the same value that a human being has.
Ricky's Post:
"funny (and sad) how you can skin a baby seal or go hunting for sport and not have the slightest fear of going to Hell for it"
What's sad is people like you who put so much value on an animal, but you put no value on the man who died for you named Jesus. That's what is truly sad.
Ricky's post:
yet being friends with a gay person could get you in trouble.
Being friends with a gay person will not get you into trouble Ricky, it is living that lifestyle.
How old are you Ricky?
I applaud Ricky and his love of animals. What does not having a soul have to do with it? Animals can feel both love and pain. No, they have not the same value as humans; again, what the fucking hell does that have to do with it?
GK Chesterton, a great catholic author, once defended the idea of original sin. He said that cruelty to animals is all the proof I need.I am an atheist, but once in awhile a christian writer actually makes sense, which is a hell of a lot better than you have done.
And your bullshit about jesus' death is sad. I sat here and shed great big tears that someone can preach that filth and believe in it. Since when would an all-powerful god need to butcher someone in a Roman execution before he can pardon the smallest of our sins? And again I say, bullshit.
Why don't you get real? And how old are you?
Hi to Ricky from a cat-lover
Huh. Bet that's not going to go over well when he gets to that "take. eat. this is my body" part.
What's sad is people like you who put so much value on an animal, but you put no value on the man who died for you named Jesus.
Well, he is hard to put a value on an imaginary friend, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't come close to that of a real, living animal.
Being friends with a gay person will not get you into trouble Ricky, it is living that lifestyle.
I don't know about that. Apparently they have some kinda gay-ray they can shoot out their ass and destroy your marriage, whilst also turning your kids gay. A least, that's the best explanation I can come up with to explain your Bible-thumper buddies cacklings about "the gay agenda" and its effects.
"Well, he is hard to put a value on an imaginary friend, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't come close to that of a real, living animal."
You have got to be kidding me. What is this world coming to?
Your statement is outrageous. Jesus was and is a real person, who died for you.
The fact is that the bible is part of history. Let me ask you a question, do you believe that George Washington lived at one time, and do you believe that the Civil War happened?
If so, then why do you believe that? You weren't around back then?
The bible and Jesus are just as valid as the existence of George Washington and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is just as valid as the history of the Civil War is.
The real problem is people like you who are filled with hatred. If you and the other poster was not so filled with hatred, none of you would've ever addressed me in the manner that you both did.
That type of behavior is typical of anyone who does not have Jesus in their life.
People who feel the need to use profanity only do so, because they are not mature enough to have a decent and civil conversation,and they don't have anything intelligent to say.
No, the real problem is assholes like you, who apparently don't bother to read the site Purpose and Disclaimer, come here proselytizing for you imaginary, flying, undead, god-man, without bothering to realize many of us here were devot Christians and Christian leaders.
Your feeble "Jesus was historical" argument is testament to your pathetic lack of understanding and education the historicity and authentication of the bible and biblical characters.
People who feel the need to use profanity only do so, because they are not mature enough to have a decent and civil conversation,and they don't have anything intelligent to say.
Bullshit! Profanity is an expressive form of language often used to convey a individual's emotions regarding a particular topic. Its use, or lack thereof, has no bearing on the merits of an argument or the maturity level of the user. It's self-righteous dicks like you that run around whining about "profanity" after you've butted into someone else's conversation and then don't like the response.
No one invited you here. You don't get to make the rules. If you don't like the language you can always fuck-off.
The ones like Korinne, who are smart and/or lucky enough to have a rational background, will quickly find that the friendship, acceptance and belonging do indeed come with strings and are able to cut the ties that not only bind, but chafe.
Good on ya, Korinne! (as I believe they say down there in ozzie-land)
Get real, Get Real! If you can’t see past the cussin’ go find ya a G-rated site.
I used to half-assed believe that nonsense myself until I found a few good blogs that don’t censor blue speech. There’s a lot of good discourse that also includes profanity; it seems to free up some people’s writing. I always enjoy reading what xrayman, Spirula, bloviator, and alaric and others have to say, however they choose to say it.
Go back home and hide behing your momma’s skirt, Get Real.
We also know about A Tale of Two Cities and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and Hamlet and The Da Vinci Code and other cool stories. Now, if you have any ***evidence*** that your story is any less imaginary than the others, please do share. Otherwise, all you’re doing is shitting on our blog.
Yawn. Another Christian waltzes into here and tries to psychoanalyze people that he doesn’t understand.
Get Real Dude wrote: “That type of behavior is typical of anyone who does not have Jesus in their life.”
No, that type of behavior is typical of people who seek refuge from preachers, only to find another preacher (hands Mr. Dude a mirror) flailing about in their refuge. We don’t behave like that when preachers aren’t around.
Get Real Dude wrote: “For anyone else who wants to have a 'Civil' discussion on here with me, I suggest that you do so without using profanity.”
Fuck you.
(This ain’t your blog. Where do you find the chutzpah to dictate the terms of the discussion?)
Anyway we don't tollerate too much self rightous religious bullshit around here. No one here believes Jebus died on a couple sticks for our sins any more than we believe that the story of Goldielocks and the Three Bears is a true story. All that aside if YOU approach us with respect we will have some very civil discussions.
"The bible and Jesus are just as valid as the existence of George Washington and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is just as valid as the history of the Civil War is."
To Get Real Dude:
Now you're trying to tell us that the history of the USA was written by people no smarter than the camel jockeys in 325 CE? Go get some help, you simpering fool. You will probably try and tell us the Revelations part of the bible is as factual as the Gettysburg Address. Where do you people get your schooling, Southern Baptist U?
I doubt that you have learned anything here today, just remember this, the people here are here for a good reason, they have finally clued in about the bullshit spewed by all the pastors, priests and other frauds that make up your lifestyle.
If you don't like bad language why do you read the bible and believe everything in it? No wonder you are so warped.
Just piss off and don't come back.
to say what happened to me re: meat - I was told that because god gave dominion to Adam over all the beast and bird and creatures of the sea, we were "commanded" to eat meat- this was the "natural" order. I was pretty much hounded by this and the "no soul" argument to eat meat.
But I think that animals are valuable, and show traits that humans do - some animals are gay, some are good with kids, some are patient... watch David Attinborough, animals have real personality - unlike a non-existent creator god.
Yay for you guys, thanks for being so supportive!
Especially well done cows.
I'm sitting here eating a steak right now, and it tastes really DAMN good!
I wish some of you were here so I could eat this steak right in front of you.
And for those of you who seem to live sheltered city lives, who are so bothered by those of us who like eating meat, that's too damn bad for you.
Then I think I will eat a murdered chicken after that.
Damn, I can hardly wait to consume all of these murdered animals.
Wish some of you were here to watch it, however most of you would be too afraid to leave your suburban homes and city life.
And there ain't nothing you Animal Rights pansies can do about it!
All I can say is bless people like Ted Nugent.
Based on some of your responses, and the reasoning of most of you people, I must say that I am very concerned about the way younger people of today think.
Young people of today have very warped reasoning, and are out of touch with what matters in life.
Today's younger generation only proves how society is staring to erode, and how there is no longer any respect for human life.
God help all of you. I'm just thankful that I am not part of the younger generation. I am honestly scared for all of you. I don't think any of you have any idea what bad times are ahead. You think things are going to get better by removing Jesus from this country. You are wrong if you believe that.
Matter as fact things are only going to get worse, however it's not too late to give your lives to Jesus. Do it today will you? Give your lives to Jesus before it's too late. I don't want to go to heaven without any of you.
This also includes you "Proud To Be A Redneck".
You shared that with us because you honestly believe it is the inerrant and inspired word of god, and we would all be so moved as to repent? Mwahahhahaha! That's the laugh of the week, seriously!
The occasional turd left by the unsupervised pet of an ill-behaved owner can be ignored as a random aberration, cleaned up and life can go on. But when the same unsocialized pair shits on your lawn over and over and over, it's time to take action. Dude, you are a disgrace to the human race, and quite frankly, I can't understand why Dave (beloved webmaster), continues to allow you to spew your filth. Yes, Dude, filth. But then again, maybe he allows it because you are a walking advertisement for the hatefulness of your murderous thug of a god (whom WE know is wholly imaginary), and the Jebus, invented to give substance to another imaginary construct. So go away little fuckwad, and pound sand somewhere. And yes, in case you are interested, I am not one of the younger generation; I am a wise old (contented) atheist.
mizleeataoldotcom
'Looks like you're shit-out-of-luck, "Dude"....."heaven" will have just as many rapists, robbers, and murderers as "hell", if not more. Really, now..."I believe in you, oh heavenly father" erases your priors? F%ck that!.....give me "hell"...I'd rather be facing my killer, than get it in the back. ; )
People who call someone a fool only do so, because they are not mature enough to have a decent and civil conversation,and they don't have anything intelligent to say.
You have repeatedly violated the purpose of this site. From now on all your posts will be deleted.
Bye now!
What a fucking jackass. I almost think this guy can't be for real. I just can't comprehend buying into the bullshit as he has. Thankfully I don't call myself an Exchristian because I never was one.
I have so much respect for all the vegetarians out there. I am such an animal lover yet like the asshole above, I love a good steak. It's a shitty game of mental gymnastics I play every day I indulge in a meatfilled meal. The bottom line is the fact that if I had to kill the cow or pig, I would be a vegatarian.
Like, for example, how Our Glorious Christian Leader was promoted from his old job, eagerly executing people in Texas? And today takes revenge for the less than 3000 lives lost on 9/11 by sacrificing more than 3000 of our soldiers? In the wrong country? At the cost of how many Iraqi lives?
While he values undifferentiated clumps of cells more than the lives of people who are suffering from incurable diseases? And is complicit in the deaths of millions of Africans because he thinks that International AIDS education programs are teaching people too many ways to protect themselves? And preaches against abortion while pursuing policies that increase the demand?
What, you say King George the W is pro-life? Well, yes, if you count people who have been brain-dead for 15 years.
With Christian “pro-lifers,” we don’t need pro-death people.
GRD(AGS) wrote: “God help all of you.”
God is imaginary.
GRD(AGS) wrote: “I'm just thankful that I am not part of the younger generation. I am honestly scared for all of you. I don't think any of you have any idea what bad times are ahead. You think things are going to get better by removing Jesus from this country. You are wrong if you believe that.”
Nobody has been removing Jesus from “this country” (unless he crossed the border illegally). What’s been happening is that people have decided that Jesus needs to take care of himself without help from the government.
Nevertheless, things have been getting better for centuries as we’ve weaned Jesus off the government dole. Remember the Dark Ages? That’s what we had when Jesus was in charge.
GRD(AGS) wrote: “Matter as fact things are only going to get worse, however it's not too late to give your lives to Jesus. Do it today will you? Give your lives to Jesus before it's too late.”
It’s already too late. Jesus died more than 1900 years ago. Hadn’t you heard?
GRD(AGS) wrote: “I don't want to go to heaven without any of you.”
Heaven is imaginary.
GRD(AGS) wrote: “It is sad to see people on here who are so deceived. All of you have hardened your hearts towards God.”
God is imaginary. We cannot harden our hearts towards fictional characters.
GRD(AGS) wrote: “[Bible quotes]”
Did you read what i wrote above? We’ve already read the Bible. If you want us to take you seriously, you need to do more than just read to us what we already know; you need to present ***evidence*** that this book of yours more than just a collection of fairy tales.
GRD(AGS) wrote: “You all mock and ignore truth, just like the bible said you would. Can none of you even see that you do exactly what the bible said people would do in the last days. Are you people that blind, do you even understand what you are reading?”
We’re doing exactly what people were already doing when the Bible was written—written by people who believed that they were living in the last days. It didn’t take prophets to predict what was already happening. Especially 2 Timothy, which wasn’t written until well into the 2nd century. If then.
GRD(AGS) wrote: “I promise that none of you will laugh on the day of judgment. When the day of judgment comes, it will be too late.”
How do you know? From that book of yours that we don’t believe?
GRD(AGS) wrote: “You dear sir, are blind. Satan has you exactly where he wants you. He has deceived you and gave you a false belief that you are content and wise.”
Satan is imaginary.
GRD(AGS) wrote: “You are a fool who is in danger of hell fire.”
Matthew 5:22 back at ya. See you in hell. :-)
P.S. Hell is imaginary.
>There is apparently no reasoning with most of you. It is apparent that many of you have hardened your hearts and turned your back on God.
William,
You believe we "hardened our hearts".
Why is it so impossible that our brains finally woke up from the delusion that still holds you in it's grasp?
Why is it we can see inside your 'bubble' and fully understand the way you think, but you can't even being to understand the facts that made us realize your god/jesus was nothing more than a political storybook myth?
Funny how we can see BOTH sides of the coin, but your viewpoint is stuck on just one side.
>The problem is none of you don't seem to recognize the fact that you have all been deceived. Satan wants you to believe that he is imaginary. None of you seem to realize that it is Satan that has you believing that. Satan is the one who has put that belief in your heads. He is using your bad experiences in regards to the christian faith to deceive all of you. Satan is using it to make all of you think that God is not fair.
So you're saying that this Satan is really really powerful, right.
You're also saying that this god who loves us sooo much, is letting this fallen leader of the bad angels deceive us at his whim.
Is this some sort of GAME that your god is playing William?
Human lives are greatly at stake here and yet your god hides from our sight as best as any god has ever hidden himself away throughout history.
Your Satan also hides just as well, yet you insist he's not only very real, but constantly fucking with our heads.
Nice sci-fi book you're reading there bud.
> Satan will continue to deceive and blind every single one of you.
Only cause your coward god LET'S him do it, silly.
>The reason why you do not understand the bible, and the reason why it is foolish to many of you, is because Satan will not allow any of you to see the bible for the truth that it is. He has blinded you.
Again, your god let him blind us then, so it's your god's fault, not ours buster.
>1 Cor 1:18) "For the word of the cross seems foolish to those who are on the way to destruction; but to us who are on the way to salvation it is the power of God."
That verse is all about you atheists who mock, laugh, and insult God's word with your arrogance.
And you believe that quoting from your book of fables, will have what impact on us exactly?
Try NONE, ZIP, ZERO
>People on here claim that the bible is not real, and it's words are not real, however it is crystal clear that the way many of you are resisting the gospel message is a fine example of what the bible teaches about how people would one day turn away from the faith and follow false spirits and false teachings. The bible predicted it, and here we are today. Many of you are doing "Exactly" what the bible said would happen. Many of you are brining this passage into existence and making it a reality.
Did it ever dawn on you that your bible predicts it, because the writers knew how ridiculous it would sound to anyone with a brain.
NAH, that idea would never cross your mind, now would it William, shezzz.
BTW.....can you even prove these 'false spirts' exist on earth?
I've never encountered one in my entire life, yet you say we follow a thing we've never seen or heard.
>Your typical human arrogance will be what destroys you one day, unless you repent, and turn to Christ and make him lord of your life. When people face, and fear imminent death, in their desperation they find it hard to remain atheists.
Oh, the ole saying....There are no atheist in foxholes, right William.
GUESS AGAIN, cause there are plenty!!
I've come close to death in my time on this earth and it did NOTHING to bring me any closer to believing in your god. In fact, it had just the opposite effect on me.
>I guarantee that you atheists will not be so arrogant when the day comes that you are lying in a hospital bed on your death bed, and you are about to take your final breath before you leave this world.
And you base this 'guarantee' of yours, on what exactly?
Your bible fable book?
Got any real evidence to present us, hmmm.
>All of us must leave this world one day, and your so called successes since leaving the christian faith are only going to be temporary. In the end you will not be successful. You will all be a eternal failure.
OR, I'll just be DEAD, just like you will be one day to.
>Just think how hot an oven is and how painful the heat from fire can be. Do any of you want to feel that type of pain all over your bodies for eternity?
Oh, so when you can't present evidence to convince us, you do like all xtians do and bring up the scare tactics, right.
Yeah, well those scare tactics stop working on me a long long time ago William.
BTW.....Can you tell me where this hell is exactly, or, how about that heaven you THINK you're headed for?
>Imagine having a can of gasoline poured on your body, and having a match lit to your flesh. Imagine that fire "never" going out, and not being able to die or find relief from the pain. The fire never goes out, and your bodies are never destroyed.
So how exactly does something BURN for trillions of years and yet, never burn up, hmmm.
Oh, and of course, we feel the pain the whole time while it's never burning us up.
Do you realize how retarded that concept is William?
>It's like the old saying goes, "You will not find an atheist in a Fox Hole".
That is very WRONG, as there are PLENTY of them!!
Stop reading that xtian apologist propaganda....It's all LIES.
>For those of you who continue to rebel against God by mocking and rejecting him, the day will come that you will confess that Jesus is lord, and you will bow before him, however by that time it may be too late.
So sayeth the great William soothsayer.
Again, why should I believe what YOU have to say buddy?
> Nobody ever said that the christian life would be a cake walk.
And we should suffer to what end William?
No thanks, I'll take that cake walk w/o your make believe god(s)
> I too have accused God of lying to me, however I have never turned my back on him either.
How does something that can't exists, lie to a person?
Could it be that the lies were just as imaginary as the answered prayer you got from your phoney god?
>However, as mad as I have gotten at God, when I felt like he wasn't being fair, and anytime things didn't make sense to me, I have always been reminded of this verse:
(Proverbs 3:5) Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
Again with more babble from your babble book.
You xtians just can't get it thru your simple minded heads that we see that book a nothing more than badly written fiction.
A fiction, that has caused the world a whole lot of unnecessary grief.
>You cannot rely on human instinct and understanding to know the mind of God. All of these things that the bible teaches that many of you claim to be silly are beyond human imagination.
Which is why we live in reality William, while you live in a fantasy world.
We can't share you fantasy world, as it's just that, a fantasy.
Comprehending your fantasy as being of reality, would be like a person being able to compose a great piece of music when they are tone deaf.
>(Isaiah 55:8-9) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,"declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
So heaven is HIGHER than the earth, so this says.
So then where exactly do you suppose this heaven might be William?
Is it above the clouds, or somewhere in orbit about the earth of perhaps on the other side of the moon?
>You have to simply have faith, and not base your bad circumstances and bad experiences on who God is. The problem is many of you have simply given up on God, because God either did not give you what you want, or he did not do what you wanted him to do, or he did not do things on your time table.
Yeah, I asked your god to do a very SIMPLE thing......to SHOW HIMSELF and he never could.
I guess he's stuck on some obscure planet in some far away galaxy these days.
> There is a grand plan, and I'm certain that God will one day reveal to us why some things had to be the way they were.
Well guess what William, we don't like your god's plan, and refuse to sign up for it.
Your god really SUCKS.
>Do not trust in your own feelings and emotions when it comes to God. Your feelings can deceive you, especially when you turn your back on God, which allows Satan to control your minds.
Actually, it was your FEELINGS and EMOTIONS that made you believe in this pretend god of yours.
It was our BRAINS that made us realize your god is bull dung
>Do not trust in your own human logic, and understanding. None of you can use human intellect to understand the will of God. Your human reasoning will fail you in the end. None of you can know God through human reasoning.
Yeah, so we should dumb ourselves down to your level, so we can get brainwashed into your mythical god beast.
>(Proverbs 14:12) There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
Believe me, you'll die the same way we all do and it's a darn shame you'll never find out how screwed up you made your life with this imaginary god of yours.
>This is my final plea to all of you. My job is as a christian is to sow the seeds of truth,
Your 'seeds' will only grow a plant known as poison ivy.
>I believe that some of you deep down are not "True Atheists".
Well I'm what would be called a STRONG ATHEIST, so you just can consider me one of those lost sheep, but a sheep with a working brain.
>William (Get real dude, and get saved).
Actually, I'm already saved....saved from your idiot god.
I'm also living in the REAL world, unlike you william, who can't face the real world and needs a pretend god to fall back on when life gets a bit rough for ya.
Just how YOUNG are you william, that you still are wearing those rose colored glasses to see the world with?
ATF(who can't believe how BLIND these xtians can be)
And gee, it didn't take you long to go from "having a civil discussion" to threatening hell and damnation.
Therein lies the core of christianity - don't think, don't emote, just be afraid, be very afraid!
I finally found something we agree on; that being that Christianity does not make sense, as you implied when you said "There is a grand plan, and I'm certain that God will one day reveal to us why some things had to be the way they were." Which is another way of saying, "I don't get it either."
So starting from that point of agreement, you choose to place your belief in a strange and twisted set of writings, that by your own admission don't make sense when compared to real life. Whereas we simply decided to use the brain that was given to us in order to and reject said writings in favor of looking at real evidence of the world and taking reality at face value, even if the answer we get does not fit with our preconceived notions.
I do by the way have complete faith in god, whatever or whoever that may be. But my faith is in a god that is not as much of a jerk, or idiot, or mental case as your bible proclaims. I have perfect faith that if a god exists, he/she won't send me to eternal burning torment for using my brain to reject a bunch of confused fairy tales, and for refusing to believe he could be such an asshole.
And by the way, according to the bible, it is not satan that is deceiving us, but your god. Please check out 2 Thess. 2:11. God lies to us just so he can condemn us to hell. Nice guy!
- Lance
Hi ya! It is nice to meet.
I agree that living without the ball and chain of theistic indoctrination seriously makes all the difference in the world when it comes to one's passion for living and quality of time spent.
I think it makes way more sense to live without imaginary spooks needlessly haunting you from your own imagination. It clears our head to have better understanding about ourselves, and the world around us. Things seem less overwhelming and burdened.
You have found a nice cyber-home of friends. I felt like I was alone 4+ years ago, until I came to this site. Here, you can inquire more, share in, rant on, learn from, and openly express your individuality.
It is those inner contemplations that make you who you are, and usually where our best decision making takes place. Well informed and ready to change. It is good to see all these fresh perspective being offered up without fear of condemnation or personal complications with family, neighbors, or co-workers, etc...
Christians despise us freethinkers for having our own identity and daring to think for ourselves. It pisses them off seeing us be fair and real about life in general. They do not want us to know of, speak of, or pay attention to the one thing that quickly sends them running off with their tail tucked between their legs. It's called bona-fide knowledge.
Yes, I know there are well educated Xtians out there, but these folks are usually the passive types IMO. They don't stand up for much of anything that does not involve their money, their heritage, or the life they lead within their own zip code.
(Note: I do product research and focus groups, and at times I am like, Wow! I have discovered so many interesting and odd things about these corporate neo-con fundamentalist rednecks. They’d make ya choke a vomitous laughter, were they not so damn scary and sad!)
Spreading knowledge is the antidote to the Xtian faith's mindless poison, and you Korrine are a little dose of that reality.
Enjoy being a unique individual and keep learning along the way. Embrace what makes you different from the rest. It sounds like you are doing a great job of just that. It also restores a bit more hope for this world for all of us too, so thankyaverymuch for dat.
Welcome to Ex-Xtian.net Korrine.
Merry Life and Happy New Year!
Great stuff you have written. I liked one quote in particular:
"Yeah, so we should dumb ourselves down to your level, so we can get brainwashed into your mythical god beast."
I lost one of my oldest and dearest friends to a very strict Baptist cult. Before he decided he never wanted to speak to me again(unless I accepted Christ) he would try so hard to sell me on the Bullshit. He was of the worst appologists on earth. Anytime I would ask a simple question about his religion that made no sense, he would respond with....."Bill sometimes we must throw the intelectual side of our mind aside and just accept his word." And I would say, "RIIIIIIIIIIIGT"
Great statement Lance !!!!
Final plea? You promise?
"So how exactly does something BURN for trillions of years and yet, never burn up, hmmm.
Oh, and of course, we feel the pain the whole time while it's never burning us up.
Do you realize how retarded that concept is William?"
Once again people like you are relying on your human minds that are limited.
You cannot understand the super natural, because your human mind is not capable of it.
It seems that God's creations (meaning humans) feel they are more superior than the creator.
As far as WM deleting my posts, it seems that Atheists also believe in censorship, and do not believe in Freedom of Speech.
You claim you are all for freedom of speech, and you all moan and groan about how christians so close minded about things, yet anytime a christian tries to talk about the bible, you all want to censor us instead.
Talking about having a double standard.
ATF:"Yeah, so we should dumb ourselves down to your level, so we can get brainwashed into your mythical god beast."
>Xray: ....He was of the worst appologists on earth. Anytime I would ask a simple question about his religion that made no sense, he would respond with....."Bill sometimes we must throw the intelectual side of our mind aside and just accept his word.
---------
Xray',
I'm glad you liked that little thought of mine.
I said 'beast', because sometimes I see this xtian god as more like a Godzilla beastie, than the god I USED to picture him as.
Funny, but wouldn't most find the monster movie Godzilla beastie, far MORE LIKABLE than the OT god beastie?
I actually think Godzilla was far more normal; mentally, than the OT god ever showed himself to be via his words/actions.
I say for 2008, we elect Godzilla to the office of god-of-the-year?
Now about this dumbing-down stuff.
I see only two choices if in today's world, one still wishes to believe in this bible god.
1. That a person isn't normally intelligent to being with, and can't see past the 'curtain' of the wizard, when it comes to the miraculous claims of this bible sci-fi book.
2. That a smart person's brain is very much compartmentalized, in order to be able to accept these outlandish bible facts. In this case, Part 'A' of the brain deals with their earthly lives and can discern the possible from the impossible, while part 'B' is a special compartment that has an input 'slot' for anything impossible that falls under the realm of 'belief in god(s)'. This latter compartment starts with the premise that anything is possible, just as long as it fits into the god-spell idea of the beholder.
If these smart believer types would only use the SAME brain they use for their real lives, to look inside their god-box, they would surely see the whole idea is nothing but a sham.
Funny how they can easily see that other god beliefs are nothing more than shams, but when it comes to their own god, the brain suddenly goes into a deep god-coma.
BTW Xray', on the matter of soul thingy's. I take it they still have not shown up on any xrays lately?
What about when you do xray's of the head......do you ever see the hand of the devil in there causing all this non-god brainwashing these xtians claim is going on?
I tell ya Xray, when this god created all these supernatural things of the universe 'thousands' of years ago, he sure had the foresight to make sure than even in 2007, that our technology could never verify a single bit of that world. What a great magician he was, back when he did all this creation stuff.
Or ummm, ummm, could it be that just maybe, there is no god, nor god creations...NAH.
ATF (who thinks if god existed, he would offer at least some good supernatural clues to his existence)
ATF:"So how exactly does something BURN for trillions of years and yet, never burn up, hmmm.
Oh, and of course, we feel the pain the whole time while it's never burning us up.
Do you realize how retarded that concept is William?"
>Once again people like you are relying on your human minds that are limited.
You cannot understand the super natural, because your human mind is not capable of it.
William,
As far as we know, there is nothing out there greater than the human mind.
Could it be the human mind can't fathom this supernatural mysterious god world, not from lack of capability, but rather because it's hard to imagine in any detail, the IMPOSSIBLE.
The concept of your supernatural world is as difficult to comprehend as the sound of one hand clapping or drawing a round-triangle.
Just because we can't imagine such things, doesn't mean they automatically exist.
If you want me to believe in a round-triangle, then you have to offer some proof that such a thing not only can exist, but that you have proof it does in fact.
Your religion is based solely on FAITH William and for the same reason that anything impossible would have to be based on faith.
You lack any credible evidence for your god, other than your ancient dusty bible book.
If you had such evidence, then you wouldn't need this faith stuff to believe and everyone would then believe in your god.
On the other hand, this idea of faith being the only thing necessary to believe in something supernatural, also means that one would have to accept everything supernatural on faith and that means we'd have to shut down our critical minds to ANY CLAIM coming from the non-natural realm.
If you don't believe in invisible pink unicorns partying on the planet Uranus, even if I wrote a lengthy book on the subject, then why would your ancient bible book be enough to convince me that your own personal god is for-real?
>It seems that God's creations (meaning humans) feel they are more superior than the creator.
Trust me, it's not very hard to feel superior to something that never existed in the first place.
Especially when that 'something' god comes with a handbook that shows this supernatural creature to be inconsistent, to lie, to intentionally deceive, to be grossly unfair to his human pets from the get-go, but to act like a child in playing his hide&seek games with us, yet demanding we believe in him or tossing us in this hell fire stuff.
The whole concept of your god and his ways is far less believable than most fiction stories we've known in our lives.
I'd believe that Huck Finn was a real person far sooner than I would believe your god to be real.
>As far as WM deleting my posts, it seems that Atheists also believe in censorship, and do not believe in Freedom of Speech.
You claim you are all for freedom of speech, and you all moan and groan about how christians so close minded about things, yet anytime a christian tries to talk about the bible, you all want to censor us instead. Talking about having a double standard.
William,
I realize that you THINK you are doing this great service here, by preaching to us Ex-xtians and trying to bring us back into your god-fold.
I realize that you, like most fundies who bounce in here, feel there bible quotes to us are like a magic potion and all you need to do is to post them and they will put us under the god spell, all because these scriptures feel magical to YOU.
What you don't realize that quoting bible words is actually counterproductive to your interest. We already KNOW your bible book and we've heard MANY others like you who've come in here with the same sort of rubbish.
You have presented NOTHING NEW William!!!
It's always the same ole' rubbish that you xtians present to us.
Xtains NEVER come in here with any credible evidence for the simple reason, it doesn't exists.
We use our MINDS here in this 'club' to make the important decisions in life.
Your kind will never reach us by appeals to our emotional side.
If you want us to believe and love your god, then you'll have to find that impossible to find evidence of your god/jesus.
In the meanwhile, I've got PLENTY of evidence that shows your jesus never existed and your bible book was nothing more than a political agenda and has continued to be just that throughout human history.
We've heard your side of things and you had plenty of time to present anything that would convince us we are wrong, but failed in that regard.
This site is for EX XTIANS, not for xtians and as the webmaster will surely tell you, the 'freedom of speech' you think you deserve here, does not apply to privately owned websites.
This site, while publicly accessible, is more like a brick and mortar CLUB, where you are a GUEST and like any club, a guest can outstay their welcome if they fail to abide by the rules or show a reason they should be allowed to stay.
So William, do you or do you not, have some credible evidence to present to us to prove your god/jesus truly is reality?
If not, then you're merely preaching AT US and I for one, HATE TO BE PREACHED AT!!
ATF (Who wishes William would read through the many other xtian comments that have tried to persuade us to the god side and then maybe he'd realize how common his tactics are to us)
Many many Christians post at this site. You are free to state your opinion and argue for your position, as many have before you. However, if you've nothing original to say, or you don't show any signs of actually grasping what is said to you, then it gets tiresome. Understand?
Oh, shit! Here we go again. Another Christian whining about "freedom of speech" (which has NOTHING to do with blogs or the workplace etc., just GOVERNMENT's ability to restrict what you say and where you say it. Idiot.). Did you bother to read the site Purpose and Disclaimer William? You broke one of the blog rules. Repeatedly.
This blog was not created to be your pulpit. If you don't like it, fuck off. We don't take kindly to uninvited "guests" who burst in here and take a shit on the carpet, then whine about the smell.
But the soverign creator of a private website has no right to dictate who has permission to post on his website?
Well, in any event: GET LOST DUDE!
My eternal soul is on the line here, man!
1. Is Hell corporeal or supernatural? Either way what is it made of? And is the fire of Hell, like, what we understand fire to be? – A chemical reaction between oxygen in the atmosphere and some sort of fuel (wood or gasoline, for example) and heat. If not, then how do we go about collecting evidence on what exactly is the fires of Hell made of? Should it be called ‘fire’ or is there another word that would describe it better? How do we observe, analysis, and verify this fantastic phenomenon?
I’ll all flummoxed.
2. Are demons and devils corporeal? If they are corporeal do they have some sort of brain, you know, as in - an organ of soft nervous tissue contained in the skull of vertebrates, functioning as the coordinating center of sensation and intellectual and nervous activity?
Can they feel pleasure in molesting the damned or is it punishment for them, too? What physiological studies have been done on demons? How do they deal with the stress of Hell? Do they take it home with them? Do they beat their demon children or do they prefer going away for the weekend to a do a little fishing?
3. As for the Human soul, is it tangible – know you – of this world? How do we observe our soul? How can it be measured? If it is intangible, can the corporeal still affect it? And again, if so, how should we observe, analysis, and verify this phenomenon?
Am I being unreasonable?
Why do you say that Christians have no problem with the fact that unbelievers go to hell to be tortured for eternity. I have not met one yet who is comfortable with that. In fact, it has to be the largest issue I struggle to reconcile. Deep down in my gut I hope we get to the afterlife one day and realize that alot of what we were told was BS made up by people looking to control others through fear.
I don't care if you don't believe or whatever. Have your website, hell, have your own church. It doesn't matter. I just think it is wrong to be painting all Christians, or any group or demographic with one broad brush.
By worshiping, adoring, and giving servile devotion to the supposed god who in his infinite love and mercy created a senario where most of humanity would be destined to everlasting horror, the Christian is adding his or her yes and amen to this god's policies.
Now, if a Christian says he or she is uncomfortable with his or her god's policies, what does that tell you?
I don't hate you William. Pity you? Yes. Faith is self-delusion. Only you can break with that delusion. Almost all of us here were there too. I won't try to change you. Only you can do that.
However, when someone like you comes on this site and starts preaching, gets his "sermons" deleted after being warned about violating site policies, then throws a fit it, well whose the juvenile one? It's the arrogance of your faith that makes you an asshole.
Oh, and I don't give a rat's ass about your "rules" about what profanity does or doesn't say about someone. Your adherence to prudish rules and attempts to enforce them in someone else's blog demonstrates that you are arrogant and weak minded. Someone whose feigning superiority 'cause you didn't use the F-word or some such blather.
Anyway, your "Me love Jesus! You bad!" rants aren't going anywhere with people here.
I know my next comment I am about to make probably won't be too popular with a lot of you either, however I also believe that you atheists are also wrong.
He may not be the "Christian God" however I am convinced that there is an actual higher intelligence out there who put us here, and who created the universe.
The fact is that nothing can create itself from nothing.
I do not like christianity, however I do not like Atheism either. I wanted to be an atheist for a very long time, however I have found in my own personal journey that it is not possible for me to be an atheist. I would make a bad atheist since I do believe in a creator of the universe.
Being an atheist, and not believing in creation does not make sense to me.
I now know that I could never be an atheist.
I think it is safe to assume that if a bunch of guys 1600 years ago sat down and decided what books a bunch of other guys wrote should make up the new testament then it is safe to assume that something may have been added, removed, or changed. I believe God exists and I believe in His Son. That's it.
You have "ex-christians" here that are involved with WICA. Do you "add your yes and amen" to everything they believe just because you share the title "ex-christian"? Some ex-christians here claim to be deists; do you subscribe to those beliefs as well?
Yes, yes.."limited"! 'Got it, ad nauseam. And I guess that would explain how you, William, haven't even scratched the surface in answering the question posed to you, which was, the one regarding the physical and temporal 'torture' of something that is allegedly non-physical, and exists atemporally.
William...You cannot understand the [supernatural], because your human mind is not capable of it....
Yes, yes..."human mind"--"not capable". 'Got it, ad nauseam, ad nauseam. And I guess that wouldn't explain how you seem to know so much about this "biblegod". Do tell, why on earth should I listen to someone with "limited" brain-function tell me about something that is presumably "supernatural", or "meta-physical..i.e..beyond the physical; beyond our "limited" understanding??? HUH?
See "c-o-n-t-r-a-d-i-c-t-i-o-n", 'k handsome?
William...It seems that God's creations (meaning humans) feel they are more superior than the creator.
No, I most certainly do not feel superior to my mother and father. Though, your holy-handbook says I should "hate" my mother and father, and even my own life. How do you feel about that?
William...As far as WM deleting my posts, it seems that Atheists also believe in censorship, and do not believe in Freedom of Speech.
As already pointed out to you---while this is a public blog, it is PRIVATELY owned and funded.
William......anytime a christian tries to talk about the bible, you all want to censor us instead.
Did you say, "talk about the bible"? That's just it, William--it's talk; the bible is "TALK". The Holy bible is no more evidence for "Yahweh", than the Holy Qur'an is for "Allah". Are you getting any of this?(asked rhetorically)
William...I realize you think using profanity makes you look superior and tough, however your foul language does not impress me, so therefore you have done nothing but proven to me what an immature juvenile you are.
Superior and tough? No--'just sick of Christians attempting to propagate their circular, illogical, non-sensical, idiotic, contradicting mind-virus in the presence of people who are immune to it. Oh, and make that, BULLSHIT "mind-virus".
"You have "ex-christians" here that are involved with WICA".
I know that post was not intended for me, however I wanted to put in my two cents worth in regards to all forms of religion.
I've noticed that there are a lot of people who are involved with WICA. If you are involved in WICA, I do not hold that against any of you, however I don't understand the fascination with WICA.
Like christianity, I find no need to pursue any type of religion that involves chasing after some higher power, spiritual being, or spiritual enlightenment of any kind.
I believe in pursuing my own inner strengths that have nothing to do with the spiritual world or religion. Self Achievement and Self Success is my way of feeling fulfilled. Religion and Spirituality does nothing for me personally.
God to me is just some intelligence who is out there in the cosmos keeping order and balance in the universe. I see no need to have him or any other spirtiual being involved in my own personal life.
I believe that we have our own God given abilities to make things happen in our own lives. I see no need to seek God for anything, when he gave me the ability to make decisions on my own.
I do believe that there is a "God", however I do not believe in a "Personal God" who is involved in all areas of our lives.
Nor do I believe that "God" is someone who you can have a personal relationship with.
Unlike christians, I am a very open minded person who accepts all people from different backgrounds, and who live different lifestyles.
People have a right to live the way they want just as long as it does not bring harm to anyone else.
Christianity along with all religions is all a sham. I have never found any benefit from any of them.
I responded: “Final plea? You promise?
Then William wrote: “…
“…
“…
“…
“…”
I guess not. :-(
“You cannot understand the super natural, because your human mind is not capable of it.”
And we presumably have some superhuman mind that we can use to understand the ineffable? If we don’t, then why do you waste your time and ours here?
William wrote: “It seems that God's creations (meaning humans) feel they are more superior than the creator.”
It seems that someone doesn’t know the definition of atheist. We do not and cannot feel superior to “the creator” because we don’t believe there’s any such thing. Do you feel superior to the Great Pumpkin? (Although not all ex-Christians are atheists, i don’t think religious non-Christians feel superior to “the creator” either.)
William wrote: “As far as WM deleting my posts, it seems that Atheists also believe in censorship, and do not believe in Freedom of Speech.”
You generalize. To use an extreme example, Hitler was a Christian. Do you think it would be fair if we concluded from this that all Christians are genocidal anti-semites? Dave does not speak for us, and we don’t speak for Dave. This is his show, and he runs it how he likes.
William wrote: “You claim you are all for freedom of speech, and you all moan and groan about how christians so close minded about things, yet anytime a christian tries to talk about the bible, you all want to censor us instead.”
Speaking of how Dave likes to run his show. It was you who barged in here like a Bacardi salesman at an AA meeting, and started dictating terms of the discussion. This site is not for preaching, and it is not up to you to decide that it is. We come here to escape from Christianity, not to engage it. That Dave tolerated your presence here at all was a concession.
William wrote: “Talking about having a double standard.”
I don’t think there are very many non-Christians who would expect to be treated kindly after posting long passages from The God Delusion to a Christian discussion board. On the other hand, you don’t get locked out of this Web site simply for disagreeing with the webmaster, which is something that, according to what many report, is common on Christian Web sites. There is lots of lively debate here, often between ex-Christians of opposing viewpoints. But there are also rules, which you have violated.
I've met a few - even on this site (William, anyone?) but additionally, the bible suggests that people in heaven, where-ever that may be, will be able to see those suffering in hell and the lake of fire, yet still praise god and jesus for all eternity. Doesn't that suggest that god and all his followers don't really give a rip about who goes there? If you die and go to heaven, you will be there, happy happy joy joy, knowing that your friends, your family, perhaps your spouse or children are suffering eternally. But you will still think god is fucking awesome. Tell me how that works?
btw guys, thanks for an enthusiastic welcome - I'm not being sarcastic, this is fucking great!
"Do you feel superior to the Great Pumpkin?"
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
Yeah, and the great pumpkin never showed up either. LOL!
"Where do you people get your schooling, Southern Baptist U?"
They actually get their schooling from D.A.U.
I said I was not even sure I believe what is preached about he'll. So don't ask me questions about it. I don't know. The thought of people burning in agony forever is just too much for me to comprehend, and it does represent the biggest hurdle in my walk. I am not saying I want to be comfortable with people frying, I just how a just god can do that. And I just pray that our (Christians) idea of hell is inacurate.
"I believe in pursuing my own inner strengths that have nothing to do with the spiritual world or religion. Self Achievement and Self Success is my way of feeling fulfilled. Religion and Spirituality does nothing for me personally."
GREAT SHIT MAN !!!!!! That paragraph really sums up my triumph over alcoholism to becoming a productive memeber of society without some God Damn higher power.
You also said,
"God to me is just some intelligence who is out there in the cosmos keeping order and balance in the universe. I see no need to have him or any other spirtiual being involved in my own personal life."
Although I call myself an atheist, I am very open to a deistic philosiphy as you seem to outline. The God with no personal involvement makes so much more sense of one were to believe in a God. There are a billion billion possibilities of how this universe was jump started and how it is now maintained. Perhaps there could be an intelligence, but until there is evidence that supports such intelligence, I will continue to call myself an atheist.
"Although I call myself an atheist, I am very open to a deistic philosiphy as you seem to outline. The God with no personal involvement makes so much more sense of one were to believe in a God. There are a billion billion possibilities of how this universe was jump started and how it is now maintained. Perhaps there could be an intelligence, but until there is evidence that supports such intelligence, I will continue to call myself an atheist."
Hey Xray Man,
I didn't know how I my post would be received. I will say that even though I do believe in a higher power of some sort of, I have a lot more respect for atheists, because most of them do not judge or close their minds to other possibilities.
Christians are just a pain in the ass. There is absolutely no flexibility with them. It's their way, or the highway. I have seen more people who have been hurt by christianity than it has done them any good.
I have no respect for a religious group or it's god, that shuts out others because they choose to believe something different, or live a certain lifestyle.
Christianity is all about discrimination. They talk about this so called, "Free Gift" however there is always the fine print with christianity. You have to basically give up your whole entire life, which sucks. Don't do this, don't do that, or turn away from this or that. It's all about mind control and manipulation.
Christians really know how to prey upon the mentally weak also. I have seen many weak minded people who have been bullied by other christians, and it's not just christians alone.
Even their bible talks about condemnation against others, and quotes all of these rules and regulations.
They talk about how salvation is a free gift, however the fine print is, "You have to follow a bunch of rules and regulations" in order to be a true christian, and if you are not willing to do so, then you are not a true christian.
I don't know how many times back when I was struggling with the christian faith, that people I went to church with told me:
"No matter what, you are going to have to be willing to accept God's truth, and his plan for your life even if it costs you everything."
So much for the free gift huh? It seems that God was still requiring a sacrifice on my part, and that was giving up my free will by dying to self. Just basically become a brain dead christian zombie.
Anyway, even though I still do believe in some higher intelligence, I am glad to see that someone like you "Xrayman" is able to see things from my point of view. This belief that christians claim about how we need to make God the center of our lives and involve him in all areas of our lives is pure Bullshit. I have tested that theory and it does not work. God has does not involve himself in personal affairs such as money, romance, and buying a new car, house and other worldly matters.
No matter what you believe Xrayman, I respect the fact that you have an open mind, which is something most christians cannot claim.
Thanks for your response to my post.
I struggled with a severe eating disorder for at least 5 years. I was getting counseling from one of the preachers at my church. He never could offer me any practical advice or solutions on how to over come my eating disorder. All he could give me was a bunch of biblical advice.
Five years passed, and I never could get victory over my eating disorder. My health was starting to get bad as a result of it. God did nothing to help it.
Finally I stopped going to church. After I had quit going to church, that same associate pastor who was also head of the counseling ministry in my old church told me to get back into church. I told him no. He then told me that he could not help me, and he could only rely on the "Holy Spirit" to help me.
He finally went on to tell me that if I was not willing to do what God wanted me to do, then don't bother coming back to see him anymore.
Then I finally sought out secular help for my eating disorder. Within one month, I was finally able to get some practical advice and help which gave me eventual victory over my eating disorder.
This person who I sought out for help with my eating disorder was able to help me within one month. My former Associate Pastor who use to counsel me couldn't do shit for me in the 5 year period that I saw him. That says a lot about his God, and his counseling ability.
I always wanted to go back to this guy and ask him why it is that he counsels people if he feels so limited about his ability to help others. Someone like that shouldn't even be in practice IMO.
A good therapist or counselor will be able to help anyone regardless of what you believe or how you live. Christians are just flat out ignorant. That's the bottom line.
1. Is Hell corporeal or supernatural? Either way what is it made of? And is the fire of Hell, like, what we understand fire to be? – A chemical reaction between oxygen in the atmosphere and some sort of fuel (wood or gasoline, for example) and heat. If not, then how do we go about collecting evidence on what exactly is the fires of Hell made of? Should it be called ‘fire’ or is there another word that would describe it better? How do we observe, analysis, and verify this fantastic phenomenon?
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SEQ,
I just love your 'little' questions !!
I've wondered all my life where this hell really was and what it would be made up from etc..
Most xtain folks in my early life assumed hell was beneath our feet, and that idea gained support from science showing how hot the core of the earth really is.
So in the days I was a xtian, I was pretty sure it was somewhere deep inside the earth.
Warp forward in time to the present (any warp factor will do here)....
Of course, as time passed by, along came the problems of such an idea.
1. The earth will be around a long time, but at some point the sun will grow large and 'swallow' it. Given our punishment in hell is eternal and not just for a very long time, one now has to wonder if god will be forced to move hell to another planet; along with all the naughty souls and demons.
2. I never considered what FUEL these hell fires might be running on, but that sure is an excellent question you raise here!! Does god continue to 'create' new flammable matter for the fires to feed on for eternity, or are these fires once again magical and need no fuel to burn.
Of course we all know this hell was fashioned after the 'garbage dump' in the NT, so the writers idea of what hell could actually be, had to be quite limited and their god failed to fill in those nasty "GAPS" to have it still make sense in 2007.
3. Are we all to become spirits of some kind for all eternity, or does god instead give everyone some new form of immortal but material body?
If we are to be spirits, made up of supernatural 'stuff', then one has to assume that all spirit beings can FEEL HEAT, and yet, never burn up.
Funny isn't it, but in all the reports I've read about NDE's and Astral Projections, no one ever mentioned they were experiencing a too hot or too cold sensation. In fact, they never mention hot or cold at all in those astral travels.
So if we do have souls and they can travel beyond our body, then it sure seems they don't sense hot and cold, not to mention, they don't seem to have a problem traveling through outer space, with it's extreme cold temperatures and almost vacuum conditions and all those darn gamma rays etc..
If we are to get some new immortal material body in the future from god, then one has to question why such an immortal body would need to feel heat to protect itself from damage, which of course is the very reason us humans FEEL heat and cold.
Then one has to wonder how such a matter-composed body would feel intense pain from fire, but yet, never burn up, not even trillions of years later.
I really can't understand how xtians can buy into such an incredible story in this day and age.
>2. Are demons and devils corporeal? If they are corporeal do they have some sort of brain, you know, as in - an organ of soft nervous tissue contained in the skull of vertebrates, functioning as the coordinating center of sensation and intellectual and nervous activity?
Sounds like more of the same problem, doesn't it.
Based on the common teaching that the devil and his demons were angels and that angels are spirit beings, then it would seem they aren't corporeal.
If they are suppose to be attending to all us former humans, who now are spirts in hell, wouldn't they also FEEL the heat of those fires, just as we are suppose to.
Seems it would be a bit tough to have a job keeping the x-humans in the fires, when one is on fire themselves and writhing in pain.
Come to think of it, why would the demons and the devil bother to do that.
I mean, if god has already tossed them into the fires of hell, what more could he do to them if they failed in their task to keep us in the fires.
Oh, he might what.....kill them?
Gosh, wouldn't that take all god's fun away of tormenting them, if he were to take their lives away and make them vanish from existence.
The "rabbit hole" keeps getting deeper and deeper as we try and explore this hell concept that the fundies are so dang sure about.
>Can they feel pleasure in molesting the damned or is it punishment for them, too? What physiological studies have been done on demons? How do they deal with the stress of Hell? Do they take it home with them? Do they beat their demon children or do they prefer going away for the weekend to a do a little fishing?
Ummm, I didn't know that demons could have baby demons by mating with each other.
I did know however, that demons were once believed to mate with humans for that very purpose.
You do indeed raise some very interesting non-answerable questions SEQ.
Questions, that surely don't phase our fundies here, one iota, but sure do make us ex-xtians realize the whole concept of the xtian god and his hell, just has to be a terrible man-made sham.
ATTENTION XTIANS........The ONLY reason the concept of your hell was invented, was to keep you sheep from straying too far away.
I mean, how many "Little Bo Peeps" do you think god created to keep his sheep from wandering away from his flock?
That would take time and work on god's part, so it was far easier to threaten you sheep with some marshmallow-cooking-time if you even thought of trying to escape god's hold on you.
God is strangely silent in his ONLY book, about where this hell is and how it could possibly function as-advertised, just as he's silent about where this blissful heaven might be and how that concept would play out as well.
Then just for shits and giggles, we have those catholic believers, who added in the concept of limbo and purgatory, just to try and reconcile some of the obvious problems of having only a good and bad place to go after we die.
If your jesus was so outspoken about this hellfire destination and felt no remorse in using it as a threat, then why didn't he feel that he could make it even more realistic by filling us in on some of the missing details of how such a place would work.
Now if one of you xtians comes around to tell us about that idiot preacher who makes the claim of having visited hell for something like 22 minutes and then returned ALIVE, I swear there is no hope for your brain to ever break free of it's illogical xtian prison.
ATF (who has lots of question like were raised here about god things, but knows that no xtian can ever answer them, not even using the holy ghostie to help)
I didn't know how I my post would be received. I will say that even though I do believe in a higher power of some sort of, I have a lot more respect for atheists, because most of them do not judge or close their minds to other possibilities.
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Hi ASH,
Well I'm pretty sure you've gathered that I'm an atheist, if not by reading my posts, well, then by my errrr name.....LOL.
I'm quite curious as to how you hold a belief in some 'higher power of some sort'.
I've now seen this idea presented here a few times by various posters.
While I sure can understand the **desire** to want some greater force in the universe to exist, one that might even come to rescue us, either as individuals or as the human race collectively, I can't comprehend how one can hold such a belief without at least a LITTLE bit of supporting evidence.
So what is it that inclines you to favor some form of god, versus no god needed?
Is it your general awe of the universe, or the immense size of it, or perhaps it's complexity factor that brings you to this conclusion?
See, I most certainly appreciate the vastness of space, and even the mystery, whereby I can see no possible means for space itself to have a boundary that would confine it.
i.e if you have a wall around space, something must exists beyond that wall, if even only more space itself.
I can also appreciate the POWER in such things as huge stars, black holes, stars exploding; sometimes with enough energy that even from 100's of light years away their gamma rays would destroy all life on this earth if those rays were pointed at us.
I realize no one YET knows where all the matter came from in our universe.
Was that matter just merely recycled from one big-bang to the next, in a universe that does the Yo-Yo trick continually.
However, as much as the universe awe's me for all those reasons, the basic problem of some 'god' having been responsible for it, merely transfers that awe factor onto that god, but more so, that god would logically have to be far more complex that any element of the universe it made. That leads to the natural question that always arises...Where did this god being come from then, which is the same question the xtians all face.
Then if we assume there is some form of a creator god out there, one who evidently is silent to us earthlings, then are we to assume this god is in control of the universe.
Would it be in control of all living creatures that arose through evolution as well.
Better yet, would this god being really give a hoot about some humans on some tiny planet, off in one of it's billions of galaxies it created and not even getting the rating of being the 'star' planet of that galaxy, but instead, sitting out in the suburbs of it.
If this god is remotely caring about us, in some stand-offish manner, then should we assume that he's taking care of the problem of what to do with us when our bodies die?
If this god is doing that, wouldn't it make sense it would at least inform of that fact?
I guess what I'm saying is that even if you convince yourself that some creator god truly exists out there, somewhere, then if it's not giving a damn about us humans, not solving our earthly problems, not offering us an afterlife of some kind, then for all intents and purposes, that god is useless and might just as well not exist at all, for the difference between it being there at this point in time and not being there, would be zero.
So again, I'm quite curious how you formed this idea of some kind of god being out there for us?
Thanks for your input,
ATF (who can't believe in something, just because I might wish to)
Welcome to the site, Agnostic Secular Humanist.
As an ex-wiccan as well as ex-christian, I’ll take this on.
Wicca attracted me because it is very ethical and the practitioners aren’t afraid to think and question. At least my mentors weren’t. Wicca is all about improving the world and the self and teaches that humans are part of the earth and must care for it, not set above creation and allowed to exploit it.
They are also a whole lot less judgmental. For example, now that I have left wicca, I still have all of my friends and family who were wiccan and they wish me well on the non-wiccan path that I have chosen. Not a single one has pleaded with me to come “back to the fold.”
Agnostic Secular Humanist also wrote: "People have a right to live the way they want just as long as it does not bring harm to anyone else."
Congratulations! You’ve just expressed the first wiccan rede: “And it harm none, do as you will.”
When i lost my Christian faith, my belief in the supernatural of any kind went with it. Like most religious people, i could see the supernatural claims of all religions except my own as absurd; thus, out of consideration went Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and yes, Wicca. (That Rede beats the 10 Commandments any day, though.) Then after reading David Hume, i became convinced that the very concept of “supernatural” is intrinsically incoherent.
I don’t believe that any gods exist, not even the god of Deism. There is simply no evidence for the existence of any gods (aside from human abstractions, that is). However, i am more open to the possibility of an impersonal “nature’s god” or “first cause” than to Yahweh. Agnostic Secular Humanist’s god does not contradict evidence the way that the anthropomorphic gods do. Hence, i am a strong atheist with respect to Yahweh, but a weak atheist with respect to the god of Deism.
Thanks to Richard Dawkin’s devastating reversal of the “tornado in a junkyard” apologetic (what is the probability of a tornado blowing through a junkyard and assembling God by pure chance?), i consider the god of Deism very improbable. However, Dawkin’s anti-apologetic still leaves open the idea of a Deist god that is itself the product of an evolutionary process in a “prior” universe.
However, Dawkin’s anti-apologetic still leaves open the idea of a Deist god that is itself the product of an evolutionary process in a “prior” universe
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Ricky,
The idea of a 'god' from a previous iteration of a universe(s) forming, certainly has more possibility than one who has been around forever, and especially one that then became the volcano god etc..
So let's play this cool idea out and see where it goes.
Let's suppose in the last iteration of 'a' universe being formed from a prior big-bang, that life had plenty of time to evolve to a level that is far beyond our own present state.
Heck, it's not such a far reach to already envision alien life forms out there somewhere that might already be more advanced than us....Which is NOT to imply they are paying daily visits to earth btw.
Given that we fully expect the present universe to last many more billion years, that would surely allow any life forms existing within the universe today, to have plenty of time to reach a level vastly beyond our own, yes?
We already are aware that our own earth and sun have a limited lifetime, so our future generations will eventually have to develop the means to find another earth like planet and transport whatever life from earth they can to the new planet.
That solves the more immediate problem of keeping us humans thriving.
Alas, it's only a matter of time before our present universe runs out of steam and very distant future generations will have to find a solution to this present universe coming to a close.
Assuming the universe does contract back into a single dense point, that means humans would have to find a way to survive for billions of years while waiting for a new universe to form and be viable enough to support life again.
Okay, but let's suppose our future humans are really clever folks and can find a way to overcome such challenges.
Are we to now suppose that these god like future humans produced only ONE of their kind that would survive into a new universe formation?
I would surmise that if one 'god' of them could survive, that many more than just one would have found the means to survive as well.
Wouldn't it make more sense that many of these god like humans would have found a means to make it through it all to now exists in our own universe.
If that is true, then we should have lots of god like (former humans) around today.
Whether it would be just one 'god' or many of them who survived, that still leaves us with the question of whether they even know we exists and if they do, why do we not have any evidence that they are making contact with us, or better yet, making a difference in the normal course of events on our planet.
I'm not saying it's totally impossible that some super advanced life form from a previous iteration of a universe, couldn't have found a way to survive and still be around today,
but really, what are the chances this happened.
What are the chances that such advanced beings would know about us, make contact with just a chosen few earthlings and ignore the rest by playing that hide&seek game with the majority of us.
So while it's a cool idea and can offer comfort that we aren't all on our own, I sure wouldn't put my faith in something like that until I saw evidence of it.
Just like I required evidence to continue my xitan beliefs and found that evidence sorely lacking, I would not blindly just believe in some leftover god(s) from a previous universe without some pretty solid evidence either.
ATF
our knowledge is science."
That sums it up for me. The fewer the gaps in our knowledge, the less need we have for a 'god' to fill them.
That’s why i called it “very improbable.”
I’m not looking for a god anyway. As far as i can tell, if there is some god of some sort, somewhere, it behaves precisely as if it doesn’t exist. My point was that i consider it possible, if not probable, that a non-personal, irrelevant god might exist.
Can any of you provide any "Credible Evidence" that he does not exist?
The facts are that none of you can prove that he "does not" exist.
None of us have to prove shit to you.
Look around, and see all of the sadness and broken lives that are in this world.
If this so called loving christian God existed he would not allow such things, and all of this "Free Will" and "Adam and Eve" Bullshit is no excuse.
If there was a true loving God, who loved us unconditional, he would not set back and allow people to suffer like that. He would intervene.
So don't come on here telling us to prove that he does not exist. This fucked up world speaks for itself.
Sure. The answer is yes, and this evidence is every bit as "Credible" as the evidence that square circles don't exist.
Anony', if biblegod has the attributes/characteristics as clearly assigned to him as delineated in the Holy bible..i.e.."omnipotence", "omnipresence", "omniscience", "omnibenevolence", then philosophically speaking, said "God" is incompatible with reality, and thus, cannot exist.
Does biblegod have a "plan", and thus, he knows the future? If "yes", then the future is solidified/fixed..i.e.. unchangable. If the future is unchangable, then biblegod is powerless to do certain things, such as exercise his alleged mercy, or to move to see justice fulfilled, etc...in other words, bibelgod has zero freewill, thus, he is not omnipotent. He cannot be both omnipotent, and be a personal being who acts with freewill. It is a blatant condradiction. Take your pick, one, or the other.
Does biblegod have a "plan", and thus, he knows the future? If "yes", then the future is solidified/fixed..i.e.. unchangable
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Boom',
I've always loved time-travel movies in my lifetime.
The idea of traveling back in time is filled with the same sort of paradox that you mention here.
e.g. If one goes back in time and kills one's own father, then you could never have been born in order to go back in time, to kill your father.
Trying to resolve that paradox is much like a computer program being stuck in an endless "GO TO loop", with no way to escape it.
(Ummm, for you Windows only users, GOTO is a "BASIC" language command, from way back when)
While my xtian wife also enjoy's these time travel movies, she can't grasp this concept here that you speak about Boom.
I've tried to phrase it this way to her (see below), but alas, when the god brain is online, nothing can penetrate it......
It sure seems simple enough.
Let's suppose that god has already seen the future of some event.
If he now were able to change that future AFTER he foresaw it, then he's not all knowing, as he failed to see that he himself would change that future event.
If on the other hand he foresee's a future event that also includes his own future inactions in regards to this event, then his power to see the future is greater than his power to change that future from transpiring.
Either way, it shows that this god has a built in limitation, even if it's pitting one attribute of his own self against another attribute of his own self.
This problem here very much resembles the more simpler example of; "Can god make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it."
Like that computer program stuck in a GOTO loop, there is no escape clause here to reconcile this god power problem.
One can't *KNOW* the future and still be able to change it; unlike in Hollywood movies where they break that concept all the time for entertainment purposes
The best one can do with this concept is to say that god can foresee a future that MIGHT happen, but he can never know for certain that it will happen. To know for certain, is again, to state that the future is fixed and nothing, not even god, can change it.
So tell me Boom', why on earth can't we make xtians understand this problem is unsolvable?
ATF (who doesn't believe in fate, nor in any means to see into our future with anymore than speculation)
Sometimes, I believe this site keeps me from killing some christians, that bug the goddamn hell out of me all day at work, trying to convert,(brainwash) me with thier stupid fucking religion.
I play along with them, for fear of getting into it with them, and losing my job. All the while i'm listening to thier preaching to me; Well, i'm just thinking to myself; I wish this sum-bitch would drop fucking dead, haha. Peace, from a goddamn fucking A/A
Father forgive them, for they know what they do.
"Father forgive them, for they know what they do."
LMFAO!!!! You are right Jebus, we do know what "WE" do. We don't need your help.
It's because of the divine doctrine of the holy paradox!
Now quit asking questions and just have faith, mkay?
“Can any of you provide any 'Credible Evidence' that he does not exist?”
Notwithstanding boomSLANG’s excellent answer, and Anonymous #2501282338952984652’s even more excellent answer (“WTF?”), your having to ask that question in the first place is a concession to Agnostic Secular Humanist’s point: God is irrelevant.
(I commend you for actually reading what’s on this site.)
Run along now, and have fun with your faith.
Coz, if he did, he would make it known, which he has failed to do.
As far as him supposedly dying for us, that is nothing more than an overblown statement, and one of the most overused statements christians like to use.
So what? The loser had himself crucified, however he came back to life again. That's not a real sacrifice, and that is not a true death.
Truly dying means:
"You are not a supernatural being who is capable of bringing oneself back to life. Once you die, you stay dead".
All Jesus basically did was take some abuse and he put himself to sleep for 3 days.
This "Jesus died for you" is a christian's cover up for why God truly is not fair. It is one of the many excuses christians come up with to defend their faulty faith.
I would say that the "Jesus died for you" statement is the #1 most overused statement that christians use to make excuses for why their God does not reveal himself with more credible evidence.
It also their way of making excuses for why their God is not fair.
I am not one bit phased by the so called death of Christ, nor do I feel guilty about it. Fuck Jesus!
Besides, I wouldn't want to tempt you in anyway. Peace, Big-J
But it's a sad joke at the same time. It's pathetic that people throw up these firewalls in their minds to block out any reason or rationality that might threaten the fragile hold of their This Is The Way The World Works doctrine. And no, Christians, don't bother trying to accuse me or any other atheist of the same thing.
You're not fooling anyone but yourselves, Christians. Go away.
"...The facts are that none of you can prove that he `does not' exist..."
(I think you can all guess who the "he" is. Hint: it's not a gracefully tapered sea creature, undulating placidly among the kelp beds of the Sargasso Sea, feared by octopusses but beloved of all gentle souls appreciative of animal-sourced free electricity.)
Xtian, you're not doing your bit, not pulling your weight here, son. You'd have to start by telling us what you'd accept as "proof" that your deity didn't, and doesn't, exist.
BTW, word to Get Real Dude. Make you a deal, speaking as another vegetarian and cat-lover; I'll take your veggies and you can eat my meat.