Where are you, God?

Sent in by Scott

I grew up as a Catholic, believing in God. Eventually my faith wandered and I had many questions. I became a Methodist and was raising a family. I still believed in a God that would help explain the mystery of the cosmos, but Christianity was becoming increasingly absurd to me.

Nine months ago, my ten-year-old son Connor died of a heart attack related to leukemia. Needless to say, we were devastated. I'm lost and broken; my whole world was shattered. There is nothing more tortuous than losing your child. It's not like you've heard it described -- "a big hole in your heart" -- it's your whole soul, your very existence being ripped in infinite directions, and so much worse. I've been robbed and violated and there is absolutely nothing I, or anyone else, can do to fix it -- I'm helpless and it is hopeless.

There is nothing like having your young son die, that pulls the rug from under you.

Everything I ever believed or thought I believed went with Connor; I have been disenchanted. My son represents every young child who has ever died. How is there a meaning to life, if children can die? What meaning can we give to life, if young children can suffer then die?

A personal God went out the door. In fact if there is a personal God, I hold him in contempt! As a parent I am completely responsible for my children. I must feed them, clothe them, protect them from harm, shield them from disease, put up with their stubbornness and rebellion, and under no circumstance wantonly harm them physically or mentally, But this supposedly loving and merciful God lets his earthly children suffer -- like the ways mentioned above -- every second of every day. If HE created the universe, HE did a piss poor job by letting my son's own blood poison my son to death.

I've heard all the platitudes. "He was God's gift." Yeah, well, when I give a gift, I don't ask for it back! Or, "It's part of God's perfect plan." OK, what's HIS plan? Oh, you don't know -- then how do you know it's perfect? Or, "You'll see him in heaven." What does heaven look like? Where is heaven? How do you get there? Or the greatest platitude, "God is testing you." Are you kidding me with this one? All I want to do is punch their teeth down their throats. How come God tests me with the loss of my precious, ten-year-old son while you are boo-hooin' because God tests you with the death of your ninety-year-old grandfather, or because you are on your second divorce?

If there is a God, he is apathetic. And like an idiot, I went to the Bible for comfort, only to find the most vile atrocities committed by God. This is what we base a religion on? This is the God of love and mercy?

I also have a evangelical Christian friend who decided to walk with me once or twice a week, because he said, "I want to help and I love you, man." A couple of weeks into our walk we were discussing Abraham and Issac of the Bible and I asked him, "If God asked you to kill your son, would you do it?" "Yes," was his answer. I then asked him how he would do it? He thought a little longer and I had to prod him. "Would you choke him to death? Would you shoot him? Would you beat him to death?" His answer was, "I would probably slit his throat."

(SLIT - HIS - THROAT)

I was dumbfounded. This is where his blind faith has taken him, and you have to remember that he was telling this to me, a father who's child had just died. Needless to say, he is not my friend anymore, and never will be again.

For more on this idea, check out this story: Religiosity Common Among Mothers Who Kill Children


Now I live in misery, my own personal hell, from which there is no escape.

I used to think raising kids was like climbing Mount Everest -- the hardest but the most rewarding experience a person could have, but sadly that experience has crumbled. With the death of Connor I will be buried under that mountain until I die.

Where are you, God? Where is my hope!!??

-- Scott

138 comments:

Jamie said...

Oh Scott. I don't know what to say. Thank you for sharing your story. It's a story people should hear.

mike said...

hello Scott,

I am so sorry to hear of your great loss. No words could ever replace the pain. If I could I would give my life for him. There is nothing more tragic then a child being ignored by god.

A very sad and horrible event for sure.

Retired 1SG said...

Scott,

I have had close friends, neighbors and family pass away - it is never easy, and yes I have heard all the comments that you have stated. To tell you the truth - IT IS TOUGH whether you are a Christian or not. We are all humans and any loss is difficult, especially if it is dear to you. I don't have the so-called perfect explanation and by no means want to insult you're intelligence, however, no matter how bad it gets and how lost you are God is there for you. I don't preach but my simple faith and the love for others has gone a long way. I truly wish you the best and hope you are well. Rob

Anonymous said...

I am very sorry for your loss, which I cannot even imagine.

I wish you all the strength you need to get through this.

-Leonard

Ricky said...

I have no idea of the degree to which you are suffering... All I know is that it's worse than anything I've had to endure in my life.

If we're all God's children, then I hope he loses custody. He's doing a Hell of a bad job.

One little thing that is helpful to an atheist like me after losing someone precious is that space is not 3-dimensional, but rather 4-or-more-dimensional, with time included. This means that although your son is gone at this particular time in history, his presence is forever. Each person takes up a tiny 3-dimensional space in the universe, and also takes up a piece of time. We can't go back in time, but we can know that the good times our loved ones had in life are not erased. They did happen in time, and that can't be changed. And not only that, but your son changed the universe, even if in a relatively small way, and these small changes (even down to a photon bouncing off his body) will impact the future of the universe for an infinite number of years.

Well, that's how I see it, anyhow. I'm sorry for your tremendous loss.

jfraysse said...

Brother Scott:

You are actually living my worst nightmare – the death of a child, and a young child at that (I have 5 kids myself, all grown - save one).

Your Christian friend is one of the scariest people I’ve ever heard of. You did the right thing by staying away from him. You are correct about the evil nature of the “god” revealed in the Bible. I am nearly certain that this “god” doesn’t exist, so being angry at this deity just upsets you. Writing down your feelings and sharing them with others, as you have done here, may help you - at least, I hope it does.

You must find some (non-destructive) way to survive this. Some people process grief best by themselves. Others gravitate toward “groups” and find solace in a community of folks with kindred experiences. I don’t know which type you are, if either. If you think you might not mind the company, why don’t you try Googling a topic like “Grief Counseling” to see what is available where you live? A non-Christian service might be best as it should minimize the chances of you hearing the same old “excuses for god” that you have already endured.

My heart goes out to you in this horrible and unbelievably difficult time. If you need someone to email and just vent from time to time, my address is jfraysse@aol.com. I promise to listen.

John Fraysse

Thackerie said...

Scott, I am so sorry for your loss I don’t really know what to say. I hope with time you will reach a place where suffering is past and you are cheered by memories of your son in happier times. But, I won’t insult your intelligence with empty platitudes. No, god is not there for you, or anyone else.

One thing I can tell you is that I understand your feelings with regard to god because I think I feel exactly the same way. I haven’t suffered any tragedy as devastating as yours but I am going through a health problem that reminds me every day of the absence of all-loving, all-powerful deity.

I was an accomplished athlete in college, and I have the championship women’s soccer trophies to show for it. I was also quite active for the next 20 years. But then, in my mid-40s, I got multiple sclerosis and I am now crippled by it.

I don’t really believe in god any more, but I had what I think is a significant dream about him about a year ago. It came during a night of fitful sleep when I kept awakening in pain so severe I was reduced to bawling. When I finally did fall back asleep, I dreamt I was in the desert running in pursuit of god – a giant man dressed in a typical Arab garb. I kept shouting at him to stop, to please let me talk to him, but he kept running, his back to me all the time.

I finally caught up with him, grabbed on to the back of his robe and begged him to please stop the pain. Then I heard him laugh, cruelly and with a sort of hollow echo. At that point we started tussling and ended up wrestling on the ground and for the first time I saw his face – a metal, robot’s face with dark empty holes instead of eyes. And then, somehow (sorry, I’m kind of fuzzy on this part – you know how dreams are) I managed to pull his metal head off and break his metal body into scraps that I left all over the surrounding desert floor. That is all I remember from that dream.

Well, the next morning, I woke up feeling refreshed and better than I had felt in a long time. No, I didn’t have a miraculous healing. I’m still crippled with MS and it’s still painful sometimes (though I haven’t had a bout of leg and back spasms as severe as that night since then). But, I think I found some comfort in my dreaming mind reminding me that god is really nothing but an imaginary character that people internalize in their own minds; true, he’s not going to do anything to help me, but he can’t hurt me, either, and is neither the source of healing nor pain.

Of course, it wasn’t that dream or even coming down with MS that turned me away from any belief in the possibility of a personal deity. (There are intellectual reasons for that; i.e., I read and studied my way out of christianity.) However, I think if I still believed in god, I’d feel so much worse imagining that he “who so loved the world” must hate me and so many other suffering people. A world without any god at all and a finite life are much preferable to such a monstrosity.

Chucky Jesus said...

It's funny how people react. My older brother lost his son to suicide 12 years ago. His reaction was to become more religious. Furthermore, he and his wife fervently believe in angels. Where were those angels and god when their son committed suicide? Were they on a coffee break...oops, we missed that one?

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but the fairy tale of a magical man looking after us is just a lie some of us tell ourselves to feel better.

In any case, for what it's worth, let me add my sorrow for your loss as well.

SteveP said...

"by no means want to insult you're intelligence"

"no matter how bad it gets and how lost you are God is there for you"

"I don't preach"

Retired 1SG Rob:

You are insulting. You do preach. So you are a liar.

Why can't you f***ing Xtians just stifle yourselves when someone experiences incredible tragedy.

You are always looking for the bright side. 'My imaginary god-superstition is there for you'.

Sometimes there is no bright side! There's just cruel, unspeakable pain like Scott is going through.

You people really make me sick. This stuff is not even well-intentioned. It's about getting your religious belief out there. How cheap and phony you are.

Disgusting.

Steve

Anonymous said...

Steve,

I second what you said. Good for you.

****

Retired 1sg Rob,

After just reading how he felt about christian grief apologetics, you just couldn't help yourself, could you?? Had to throw in that "this too shall pass with the help of an invisible friend" crap, huh?

NOT the time or place. Insensitive. Cruel. Doubtless you meant well, but you could have found a more appropriate way to express your sympathies. I know that a retired 1SGT should have learned more tact than that.

****

Scott,

Like many others, I lack the proper words and experience to comfort you, so please accept my best wishes and hope for a brighter future for you and your family.

Sincerely,
Monk

Anonymous said...

Scott,

I'd also like to apologize for potentially starting/carrying on an argument in the midst of your grief.

HereticChick said...

Scott, your story is so sad and heartbreaking. I can only sympathize and hope that you find the strength to get through this.

Wayne said...

Scott -
Although I can never know how you REALLY feel - I have had similar events happen to me in my life, and you have my sincerest empathy.

Don't look for an answer from a god who isn't there. It will only open your heart up to more pain and confusion. Sh*tty things happen for no good reason, and time is the only thing we can count on to eventually dull the pain. Religion will never give you an answer - only more questions and mysterious phrases like "it's God's will".

I hope you can pull through soon. Losing such a huge part of yourself is the hardest thing that can ever happen. Find strength in yourself to heal - not because "god" wants you to, but because your son would want you to.

Wayne

sconnor said...

This is for retired 1sg
Rob,
The only problem is I can't tell the difference between God being there for me and God not being there for me.
Are you beginning to get the point, you delusianal BOGINT.
I'm adding you to my list of asinine platitudes!
Scott

Anonymous said...

The attitude of your former friend who would kill his son if 'God told him to' does not surprise me, religion has a knack of killing off the reasoning abilities of the brain and deluding people into abandoning their sense of right and wrong for the sake of obeying some text.
Muslims do it all the time when they refuse to eat pork yet kill other human beings without any problems.
You'd think human life is more sacred than eating an animal or not.
Sorry for your loss but don't blame a non-xisting being who didn't even save his own son or his own creation from the fall. Supposedly.
If that Abraham guy slit his son's throat because god told him to he'd be locked up for life in a mental institution today.

boomSLANG said...

Retired 1sg: I have had close friends, neighbors and family pass away - it is never easy, and yes I have heard all the comments that you have stated. To tell you the truth - IT IS TOUGH whether you are a Christian or not. We are all humans and any loss is difficult, especially if it is dear to you. I don't have the so-called perfect explanation and by no means want to insult [your] intelligence, however, no matter how bad it gets and how lost you are God is there for you.

If the premise is that every event, including even having to bury our own children, is part of "God's plan"---and further, that we'll see them, and our other dearly departed loved ones in another life, provided we believe the former, then isn't that to implicitly say that you have the "perfect explanation"? I think so, and as well-intentioned as you might be, the condescendsion, arrogance, and elitism "shines" through, IMO.

Bill said...

Scott,
A former coworker of mine failed to buckle her ten year old in his seatbelt and rolled her truck after having a few drinks. He was ejected and died instantly. She lost her son, job, and did jailtime, yet she had to carry on for she had another child. She is doing remarkably well four years later. The human mind does heal over time although never fully. You will always have a hole in your heart, but you can go on and help others. Join a support group and engage with those who have suffered similar losses. Just keep talking to people like us. Read books dealing with grief. I can't imagine losing a child. Please accept my most sincre sympathy and turn to real people in the real word, not imaginary invisilbe men.

xrayman

Lorena said...

Scott,

Not having children, I ignore what's like to have my offspring die on me, and at that age. Thank you for explaining what you are going through. It helps me fathom the magnitude of your pain. My thoughts are with you.

But you not only lost your son, you also lost your god, making your hurt even greater. It is unfortunate that bad things have to happen before we can realize that the personal God of the Bible doesn't exist.

Hang in there buddy. Christianity has told you that your strength is in the Lord. But that's a lie.

YOU have strength and YOUR own strength will see you through this. Again, hang in there.

Hugs!

BMorality said...

Thank you for sharing your story.

Caleb said...

Scott,
Thanks for sharing your story. Having two boys myself, I can imagine your pain. I agree wholeheartedly with your ideas especially when it comes to what our children mean to us, and our responsibility to them. That is something the biblegod has never seemed to understand. Therefore, 'his' followers do not either. Now that I am an atheist, I value human life to a much greater degree than I did as a Christian. A few months after leaving my Christian life behind, my wife had a miscarriage. Now, I don't presume to equate my suffereing to yours by any means, but merely to make the point that for me only time has helped to ease my loss. Although, my dreams, and different circumstances will remind me, I still find it easier as an atheist to deal with. This is because I don't blame a non-existant God for forsaking me anymore. I know that horrible things just happen. Hearing of those 'well-meaning' Christian friends of yours giving you all of those excuses for why their God failed, pisses me off too! I truly feel that belief in the biblegod lessens our ability as humans to have compassion and love for our fellow man. For my part, my heart goes out to you. Thanks again for sharing.

buffettphan said...

Scott,

I'm also am so sorry for your tragic loss and know that no mere words can take away your pain. Thank you for sharing your story. I wish you the best and hope each day gets a little bit less difficult and that eventually all your memories of Connor will be joyful ones.


--to Retired 1sg and Trevor,

I'm actually sitting here sputtering and spewing at the insanity and insensitivity of your insulting, cruel comments. One of many things I've observed among xtians--they never seem to know when to keep their damn mouths shut.

--buffettphan

Sally said...

Scott,

I would love to be able to tell you that I don't have the slightest idea how you feel, but unfortunately, I know all about it.

My husband and I lost our only child (son) a year ago. He was older than your son, but I assure you, that didn't make the slightest difference. He was not "old enough" to die.

When I deconverted, one of the lingering thoughts I had was to wonder how atheism would stand up in the hard times, when life was cruel. When put to the test, would I turn crying to God, wanting comfort?

The truth is that I do not understand how anyone who is a believer ever survives the loss of a loved one. When our son died, as unfair as it was, as grief stricken as it was, I never one time, not once, wondered what I had "done" to cause it to happen. I never wondered what Nathan had done wrong. I never wondered where he was, or what it was like for him. I never have to worry about him again.

Grieving is bad enough. It encompasses your whole emotional self, and after a year, it's not much better. People who've gone through similar losses tell us that it can take years to have the sharp pain in the gut begin to subside.

Adding guilt to that (what did I do to "deserve" this, what "lesson" is God trying to "teach me," what is "God's plan" ) to that sort of misery is absolutely cruel beyond anything I can think of.

Our family is entirely xtian, and don't understand us at all. We simply avoid them at all costs. I will not subject myself to their idiocy.

When Nate died, the people who meant the most to us where the people who loved him. Those who let us talk (endlessly) about him. Even today, they come to his MySpace page (http://www.myspace.com/nathandavis and www.nathan-davis.com) and leave messages both for us and for Nate. They honestly, sincerely loved him and miss him.

I still cry every single day, although not as long and not as heartwrenching. And there are times now when I can listen to his music (he was a musician) or tell stories and laugh. I am ever so glad that he lived.

The most comfort I got was from a passage written by Richard Dawkins in Unweaving the Rainbow in which he talks about how lucky those of us who are alive are to have ever lived. When you consider the odds of ever being born, even a few years of life is the cosmic equivalent of winning the jackpot.

So focus on the time he had, the joy he brought you (and that you brought him) and remember that there is no God teaching you anything. The universe is unthinking and often cruel.

Laughing Buddha said...

First, my deepest sympathies. I have 2 children and another on the way and I could never imagine losing any of them. What pain that must be. There are no platitudes worth sharing.

Second, 1SGT... you, regardless of your intentions or your rank, are an asshole. There is not one fucking shred of logic that you could use to support the idea that 'god' gave Scott his child as a gift and then had a perfect plan for violently, painfully and suddenly taking that child away from a totally devoted parent. There is not a single god-damned thing you can say to him or anyone that will make your selfish, sadistic, heartless 'god' any less of or any more than a fucking imaginary monster that should be shat out of your life like so much dung. There IS NO GOD. NO 'god' worth loving would do anything like you describe to 'his' beloved children.

What the fuck would you say to 2 families with patients in a hospital sharing a room? One family is a bunch of born-againer lemmings and the other is a family of either atheists or adherents of what you would call a 'false' religion. Both children die. They both die of painful illnesses followed by acute coronary failure. So, did 'god' love one so much that he 'took him home' BY DOING THE SAME GOD-DAMNED THING TO HIS LOVED ONE AS HE DID TO THE 'HEATHEN'? You are a fucking idiot to believe in a god like that.

So fucking unbelievable.

Astreja said...

(hugs Scott) I'm sorry.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Scott:
Having children of my own, I can only imagine the heartbreak you must be going through. You certainly have my deepest sympathy for your loss.

You sure did the right thing by ridding yourself of this so called xtian 'friend' !!

I am curious though, how this ex-friend of yours would have confirmed it was really his xtian god/jesus that might tell him to sacrifice his own son?

I mean, if some voice from inside his own head told him to kill his own son, is that enough evidence for him to believe the command is from his own god.
Would it instead require him seeing a ghostly figure of what he believes Jesus looks like, telling him to take his son's life.
At what point would a typical xtian be satisfied enough with proof it is their own xtian god giving this command, to go forth and not only kill, but kill one's own child.

Really, how can anyone ever verify ENOUGH that what they heard or saw was their own god/jesus communicating with them and giving them such a command.
Wouldn't most of us want overwhelming proof that this god who was giving this odd command, be the real mccoy, but even then, how many of us would really obey such a cruel decree by even a so called god being.

No one can convince me that a real universe-creating god would ever require one to kill their own children....EVER, but yet xtians buy this trait of their god, without question.
It boggles the (thinking) mind !!


Retired 1SG wrote:
"I don't have the so-called perfect explanation and by no means want to insult you're intelligence, however, no matter how bad it gets and how lost you are God is there for you"

Hey 1SG, answer me this:
You say god is there for Scott, right.

So how come god wasn't there for his son, nor was he there to offer an explanation to Scott as to why this god needed to take this innocent child shortly after creating him.
Wouldn't Scott feel at least a little bit better if your god had come to Scott IN-PERSON and explained before he took his son, that he needed his son for some divine purpose up in heaven. Does this god ever do such a thing; other than the imaginary god that some wacko xtian folks hear echoing around inside their own HOLLOW minds.

Even back when I was a xtian, I often wondered why god would take the trouble to create a child, only to let them get deathly ill and then die in the end.
Why have such an innocent baby/child be forced to endure the agony of some dreadful disease, only to die anyway. What could such a child learn about the ways of human existence on earth in such a short amount of time.
Surely these young children never reach an age where they would be held accountable for their sins to this god, so why does god bother making them here on earth, when it would save a step in the process by just creating them right there in heaven in the first place.

If for some odd reason it's some god rule that one has to be human first before one can enter heaven, then why not take all children to heaven while they are mere days old instead. Why the waiting time to take them. Is heaven undergoing expansion construction, and one has to wait for an open-cloud to reside upon, or what?

No 1SG, I'm sure you won't comprehend the lunacy in your beliefs where it concerns these innocent children, as it seems whatever your god does must be the righteous thing to do, just because he 'says so'.

As some other hospital working members here have pointed out recently, why does god let all these children suffer with terminal illnesses in hospitals and chooses to ignore their prayers to heal them and/or save their very lives?
What could any young child ever do to piss-off your god so much that he could turn his back on such innocent lives.
Please, don't give me this rubbish about the mystery of god's ways, his divine plans etc., as that is the rationale of mindless fables of old.

Frankly, NONE of you xtians have answers to any of life's real mysteries.
What you do have, are a ton of excuses for why your god fails to act when he should!!
How can your god be so heartless to not only take a child from their parents, but remain totally silent when it comes to offering an explanation as to why it was necessary?
Does your god delight in watching these parents grieve over their loss?
It sure does sound like he does, doesn't it--- xtians believers.


ATF(who thinks the so called xtian god not only lacks basic compassion, but get his kicks from watching humans in torment, even before he tosses them into his hellfire)

Narxt said...

Scott,

I dont know how you will struggle through this im really sorry for your loss

A practicle thought came to me, I hope you are getting some medical assistance to help minimise the heart wrenching depression you would be bound to feel. I hate drugs but in my life, through lesser traumas, they have kept my head above water.

kind regards

narxt

trancelation said...

Scott:

For once I'm going to bypass the psychoanalysis of the religously retarded, and offer this instead: I don't know what to say. There are no words that can frame the pain of losing a child. But you can move on. Know that finding happiness again is what your child would have wanted for you, and take the time to heal. You can find love, happiness and connection in your fellow humans, who offer you words of comfort and compassion. This is not God at work; humanity is not a measurement of an invisible man in the sky. it is the measurement of the capability of humankind, through which you will find comfort, solace and hope. Death is a part of life, something we cannot blame ourselves for. Religion will offer you nothing but dogmatic answers in your time of need, false hopes and lies and traps with which to draw you deeper into its hold. In this time of your life, the best thing you can do is turn from religion and focus on people. With time, you will heal. Let yourself feel, and with time you will heal.

jim earl said...

Scott, allow me to add my condolences for your great loss. I know full well that nothing I can say will make much difference. However, as one who has felt personal losses both as a believer and now as a nonbeliever, let me say that I know one thing is certain: Time is the only thing that can help. Time will slowly take the edge off your tremendous loss and you will eventually feel somewhat better.

Since there is no gods to help us in these times of need, we have to depend on friends for that help.

Judging from the many posts here, you have many friends. Take care and remember we care. Jim Earl

fjell said...

I'm sorry to hear that you have had to suffer this tragedy, Scott. That anyone would ever have to suffer it.

I can only imagine your anger over the suggestion that Connor's death was "God testing you". Were more perverse words ever spoken?

I often think of Colin McGinn when I hear about suggestions of this kind, who said in an interview:

"To me, it ("God is testing you") brings out this sort of hard-hearted, immoral way of thinking about things. Because just think about what's being said when somebody says that: you've got the innocent child with some terrible disease and God's up there saying to himself, "I really need to test some people here. Let me pick on this little two-year-old girl, put her through this terrible ordeal, and I'll test the other people. If any human being said to you that's what they'd done - suppose I decided, in my infinite wisdom, I need to test some people here. I need to improve their moral characters, so I'm going to do this terrible thing to their child. You'd think I was the wickedest person in the world to do that. Well, why isn't God?"

fjell

Rob. said...

Scott, my condolences and I hope someday you will be able to find peace in your heart and mind.

freethinker05 said...

Scott, I'm another friend of yours, in this time of grief you are experiencing. I know you miss your son very much, but, at the same time, you at least know he isn't suffering anymore. Don't hesitate to talk to (almost) any of us here if you need too. Hope you find peace soon, in this godless life. Take care, Roger...A/A

Anonymous said...

Scott, write me anytime you need to talk or vent. I mean anytime. From my experiences, I really DO relate to your feelings. infidel888@wowway.com

Anonymous said...

Scott,
I have a one year old son, and I can only imagine the pain that I would feel if I lost him. If you run into Mr. Slit-His-Throat again, I wouldn't blame you one bit if you gave him a good old fashioned nuckle sandwich.

Trevor said...

I also have a son and cannot even imagine the pain, but your description paints a vivid picture. I'll pray for you, even though you don't appear to believe in a loving God anymore.

The only thing I can say about your friend's comment, is that He knows his God. He said He'd kill his son because He knows his God loves much, much better than he does. By knowing this truth, he also knows that obedience is the only option....nothing to worry about, because God is not malicious.

Please remember that He does love you and He feels your agony, He just wants you to turn to Him and offer it all up to Him. Tell Him you can't take it anymore, tell Him you're on the verge of who-knows, talk to Him. If your faith remains, I hope that someday you can tell your master, Jesus, that you love Him more than your son and that you're willing to offer up every ounce of suffering...

Faith will restore your peace and joy someday, you can count on it...

Please don't be angry or hate anyone...just mourn.

Our family will pray for you and your son,

Trevor

sconner said...

Hi Trevor,
I'm the one who wrote, Where are you God? Saw your remarks and I noticed that you seem so insanely obsessed that you had to post it six times? Do you just sit in front of your computer every day, all day, in your underwear typing Christian proaganda, right after your done giving your self a religious, self flogging? Could you give me your email or some way of getting a hold of you so I can tell you what I really think?
Scott

Trevor said...

My heart & prayers goes out to you during this time of suffering.

I'm sorry if my words on a loving God were so offensive to you. I repeated the post 3 times because I didn’t understand why it kept disappearing. I see that you must have deleted them so, again, please accept my sincere apology.

May God restore your peace & joy someday.
Trevor

Yule Goat 2 Hell said...

"I hope that someday you can tell your master, Jesus, that you love Him more than your son and that you're willing to offer up every ounce of suffering.

Nice way to rub salt in another person's wounds. Just tell them they are nothing and their "master" jesus is absolutely justified in tormenting them.

Trevor, why don't you crawl back into your bible, snap the cover shut, and stay there until you develop some human empathy? You're not wanted here and you are only being cruel, just like your false idol. Shame on you!

Laughing Buddha said...

Trevor wrote:

"If your faith remains, I hope that someday you can tell your master, Jesus, that you love Him more than your son and that you're willing to offer up every ounce of suffering..."

Trevor... YOUR so-called 'master', Jayzus, is THE ONE WHO SUPPOSEDLY TOOK HIS SON IN DEATH. WHY in the fuck would Scott go to some sadistic motherfucker** like Jayzus and say,

"THANKS, almighty benevolent one, for torturing and then killing my child. I owe you everything because you have been so overwhelmingly kind to do all that for me."

Trevor, your Jayzus is a fucking piece of shit. I wouldn't call that thing my master if he/it gave me everything I ever wanted. I certainly won't be cowed by your little folk-tale of "Look how Jayzus is so powerful as to kill children. You'd better bow to angry Jayzus before your kids are next."

Eat shit, you fucking loony. Why don't you go pray to Jayzus to kill YOU and/or YOUR family if it's such a supreme act of love that can't even be reasoned out in this lifetime? You are lucky we all use pseudonymns here; if I were able to find you, I'd fuck you up BAD. You and your 'god', Jayzus the Flying Zombie Jew, are both on my shit list. Funny, Trevor... you're nowhere near the top, though. Most of your Xtian asshole friends have beat you to the top 10. In fact, i've changed my mind. I'm not going to hurt you, just THANK you. You happen to have justified my (and our collective) rejection of your fucking monster-god all over again. Thanks.

One More Thing... said...

Oh, I forgot...

**motherfucker, Jayzus:

Jayzus is god, the same as Yowee and the UberGhostie. They are all equally god, according to the Westminster Kennel Conflagration of Fake.

'God' , the UberGhostie, impregnated 'Mary'.

'God' IMPREGNATED 'Mary'.
Jayzus is 'god'.

That makes Jayzus the ULTIMATE motherfucker.

boomSLANG said...

Insensitive, sorry excuse for a human being... AKA "Trevor", said:

Please remember that He(biblegod) does love you and He feels your agony, He just wants you to turn to Him and offer it all up to Him.

Yes, offer it all to "Him", or be endlessly incinerated in everlasting hellfire. Yeah, we got it, add nauseum.

Dear shit-breath,

As you can see, we're on you like a moth on a flame. If your posts don't get deleted, expect more of the same. BTW, I posed questions to you in another thread that you didn't touch. This just shows me that you're not here to see anyone's point of view but your own; that you are only here to evangelize. BEAT IT!

Anonymous said...

I sincerely cannot believe some of the things I've read christians post on this thread. If you, christians, really believe some of the things you've written, all I can say is I feel sorry for you, your family, your friends, and the world at large.

If you are doing it just to be cruel, well, then you've reached an all-time low. It's one thing to goad us on trivial religious semantics or to make light of all the raping priest articles...

...but to mock the death of a man's child is farther below the belt than I EVER would have imagined ANY christian to go (or any human being for that matter) no matter what my opinion may be of christians or there religion.

Don't you christians realize that these are REAL people with REAL feelings you are typing this stuff to? This is NOT some computer screen that is making up a dialogue with you, christians. It is REAL people behind these screens with REAL problems.

The cruelty. The lack of compassion for your fellow man. I guarantee you that none of us would be low enough to taunt YOU during such a crisis, christians.

I weep for humanity.

Mike said...

Agree that Christians say and do really stupid things in response to tragedy and I think it is important to point that out to them when they do. The point I would like to make is that (believe it or not)christians are real people too. They just think they are better than everybody else and have an exclusive hold on the truth, hence their zeal to tell it, appropriate or not...but aren't we (agnostics and atheists) sometimes guilty of the same thing?

I think that, if given the opportunity to outlaw all religion, we would do it...and impose what we think is right on others. This is what scares me about some of the rhetotic I read on this site. The same thing that disturbs me about christian fundamentalism also disturbs me about angry atheism. I know that the "zeal" of christian evangelism has fanned this flame and that they have taken the first shot across the bow but let's not become like them in our efforts to counter what we think are false claims.

One of my favorite quotes is actually from a 19th century Christian named G.K. Chesterton. In response to a request to write an essay entitled "What is wrong with the world?" he simply responded...I AM. Sincerely, G.K. Chesterton. I like that.

Jim Earl said...

Mike, although I am all for being civil to everyone, most to the cretins posting here do so because of their mind numbing religion. I'm also sure that G.K. Chesterson's answer was because of his religion. Christianity teaches that humans are unworthy so the deeper into that religion one sinks, the deeper in unworthiness their thinking becomes. I called it "thinking" but I don't believe religious people are capable of thinking, only believing. When they truly begin to think, they eventually end up as part of this group, ex-christian.
I am all for being tolerant in most cases, but this takes the cake in insensitivity. I think the webmaster should delete all such messages before Scott has a chance to read them. He is suffering enough. Jim Earl

boomSLANG said...

Mike: They(x-ians) just think they are better than everybody else and have an exclusive hold on the truth, hence their zeal to tell it, appropriate or not...but aren't we (agnostics and atheists) sometimes guilty of the same thing?[bold added]

Allow me to propose something to you. Try to think of it this way: There'd be nothing for non-believers "to tell", if it were not for people insisting that gods exist.(I say the plural of "god", assuming that all Theists are correct, which of course, we KNOW is an impossibility)

To illustrate further, there's a perfectly good reason that you don't hear people running around, over-zealously exclaiming, "leprechauns don't exist, damnit!!!!" And that reason---if it's not self-evident---is that it's implicitly and collectively understood that leprechauns don't exist.

Mike: I think that, if given the opportunity to outlaw all religion, we would do it...and impose what we think is right on others.

If any person, religious, or not, is going to make absolute claims in the positive, then it is "right" to ask for evidence to substantiate these claims, especially when the "invitation" to join them in their belief threatens bodily harm in the case that one declines.

Mike: This is what scares me about some of the rhetotic I read on this site. The same thing that disturbs me about christian fundamentalism also disturbs me about angry atheism

To me, the difference between an "Atheist", and an "angry Atheist", is the difference between a person who hates rape, and a person who's been raped. I have a right to be angry. If you'd like more details, I'll fill you in by request.

Mike: I know that the "zeal" of christian evangelism has fanned this flame and that they have taken the first shot across the bow but let's not become like them in our efforts to counter what we think are false claims.

Let me ask you---do you "think" the Islamic deity, Allah, is a false claim?...or do you know it? How about Amon Ra? Poseiden?..and on, and on, if you get my point.

Mike: One of my favorite quotes is actually from a 19th century Christian named G.K. Chesterton. In response to a request to write an essay entitled "What is wrong with the world?" he simply responded...I AM. Sincerely, G.K. Chesterton. I like that.

Perhaps it's because it's a Christian who quoted it, that I find it pathetic... or, perhaps I just find it pathetic. Either way, it smells of, "I'm a broken piece of shit, not worthy of my existence." And frankly, that is slap in the face of what it means to be HUMAN....::ouch:

Anonymous said...

Scott, just wanted you to know that you are not alone in your suffering for your child. I lost my daughter six years ago. She was just 24. The paid will never truly go away. It will ease a bit. Just keep getting up every day. Keep putting one foot in front of the other. Eventually you will get to a point where you start to enjoy life somewhat. We expect to lose our parents when they are old, however, it's much different to lose a child. Somehow, we feel much more connected to our own children. I don't know......I cannot fully explain the feeling, but you know what I mean.

Dave8 said...

Mike: "Agree that Christians say and do really stupid things in response to tragedy and I think it is important to point that out to them when they do."

So, what standard are you using to point out their obvious faults?

Mike: "The point I would like to make is that (believe it or not)christians are real people too."

Sure, but do they perceive other people in society as real as well, or as human objects in a cosmological game?

Mike: "They just think they are better than everybody else and have an exclusive hold on the truth, hence their zeal to tell it, appropriate or not..."

Actually, they have doctrine they can reference that demands they go out an proselytize to the non-believers. There is an assumption that there is thought involved here, and a rigorous attempt to understand the nature of Reality and how they inter-relate...

Perhaps, they do what they do, because they don't know any better, than what they are taught by doctrine and other religious affiliates.

Mike: "...but aren't we (agnostics and atheists) sometimes guilty of the same thing?"

Let's clear up the generalization that atheists are following a standard philosophy. The only uniting factor among atheists is the lack of an established theological first principle. Beyond that, one person can have an extremely different set of values than another, so... duh, yes, an atheist may in fact commit some foul inhumane act... but... they don't do it, because they "lack" a theological first principle.

Nor, could one intelligently suggest that an atheist is "driven" by doctrine.

Personally, as one of the crowd that doesn't accept a theological first principle (validating a God(s)), I treat others with empathy and compassion, while trying to objectively look past cultural/religious barriers - it is the "freedom" of choice, without domineering influence that allows me to be the best and admittedly worst I could be in any situation.

The difference... is that "I" get a choice, and ability to reason, to do what is best in any given situation.

So, the assertion that an agnostic or atheist make mistakes, is kind of a half-truth... yes, we all make mistakes in life, it's called maturing... the difference is, that some of us are free to grow, and hopefully learn to make fewer mistakes over time... while, others will consistently make the same inhumane mistakes over and over, because they can't seem to pull their nose out of the crack of an ancient tome.

Dave8 said...

Trevor: "Please remember that He does love you and He feels your agony,"

Did he feel the agony of the dying child...

Trevor: "He just wants you to turn to Him and offer it all up to Him."

So, suicide is the ultimate offering of "all", no?

Trevor: "Tell Him you can't take it anymore, tell Him you're on the verge of who-knows, talk to Him."

So, try and trick or tempt God in order to get him to respond... because... he doesn't feel the agony of loss, he's content to just ignore...

Trevor: "If your faith remains,..."

Whether he answers or not...

Trevor: "I hope that someday you can tell your master,..."

So, all of humanity is part of a mythical serfdom?

Trevor: "Jesus, that you love Him more than your son and that you're willing to offer up every ounce of suffering..."

So, you suggest a father who loses their son, should use a form of transference, and cognitively replace the loving memories that give peace and comfort with those of a mental abstraction Lord (slave master)?

Let me guess, you also give counseling to religious married couples (sarcasm). Trevor, why don't you leave compassion to those who actually understand what it means, and those who don’t so easily prescribe mental repression as the positive “way to go” in order to find peace and joy in life. The most peaceful and joyful times Scott seems to have conveyed have been with his child, so, your response it to now “strip” away the memories of such events as well … a part that makes up his identity… So, a mental lobotomy is your encouragement for someone in suffering? I am at a loss for words, just do me a favor and stop posting your “type” of encouragement, and don’t give advice like that to anyone you actually care for – if you know what caring for someone actually means.

sconnor said...

Hi, Thanks to all, who defended me with such vigor and passion. I asked the webmaster to put Trevors absurd and insane remarks back because people would not believe it if they did not see it. He is the perfect example of how one uses Jesus' bogus authority as his own, to push a delusional ideology. Trevor must not have read my entire testimonial; if he did he'd realize, that he is the king of the platitudes.
And your apology is most definitely not accepted and you can take your worthless prayers and shove it. You might consider giving your email to the webmaster so I could contact you. You might even learn something.
Scott

Anonymous said...

This is my take on the whole enchilada. I think religion is a club....just like any other big club. People make choices in life. Some choose to not have a religion. Some choose to join the big club of religion. We all make choices in life to believe in certain things. I really believe that a lot of people who go to church 'religiously' don't truly believe that there is an 'all powerful being' that has control of everything. They go for the fellowship.....just to be around other people. It's a way of life for some people. It's something they cannot give up because they want the things that go along with it.....whether they really believe in all the religious mumbo jumbo or not.

Buddha's NOT Laughing Right Now said...

GOD-dammit... ANOTHER anonyMOUTH, anonymASS that I feel compelled to respond to.

Go eat your fucking enchilada somewhere else. Theist, non-theist, atheist, Xtian or whatever you are, that last comment was fucking lame.

FIRST, use the god-damned form to fill in a NAME. Jesus Christ, use "Jesus Christ" for all the fuck we care. It's too easy to get all the empty-heads confused when you just sneak in as "Anonymous".

Second, NO ONE here gives a flying fuck about the people who just to to church for the 'fellowship', or just to be around other people. Those people are, I guess, silent and uncaring, because THEY don't bother signing up here and spreading their multitudinous layers of Bronze-Age desert-nomad horseshit over our fucking forums. The people who have their own personal, unique and introverted reasons for believing in sky-gods and flying zombies and ghosties are not the problem ones. It's the nuclear-strength ASSHOLES like "retarded 1SHIT" and "Trevor who rode the short bus to school" that I hate. "oooh, I'm so sure that my imaginary Jayzus is a healer and a helper and a savior..." yeah, come on over and regurgitate your greeting-card platitudes about "he's got the whole world in his hands" for the suffering and hurting people who are trying to navigate these tragedies without your folk-tale gods.

God-dammit... You and your Jayzus and all the related priests and pastors and all the other asshole products of your false religion have fucked US enough already. Seriously, now... GO FUCK YOURSELVES.

stronger now said...

Scott,

I'm sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine such heartwrenching pain. You have every right to be pissed at the christian idiots that spout their jibberish.

May you find the strength you need.

Danny Tuason said...

Scott,

There is nothing I can say or do to make you feel better. I guess your best friend right now is time. It will happen. You will still miss your son but somehow in time it will be less painful.

Youre doing the right thing logically...becauset the christian god is a make believe character.
Let it go.

For my experience I try to be the best person imaginable...even though it's impossible to be perfect, I do make an honest effort. (I suck in some ways okay?) But yet even with that, we (including me) encounter day to day tragedies. When I get home and watch TV or look in the internet I see people die left and right for no reason...women getting raped...children getting molested...people starving...etc etc... In this context, life truly sucks. If there is a god (somehow I still believe that he does exist...but I have my doubts
because if he does exist, he is truly insensitive to us all.)

Danny

Anonymous said...

Dear Scott,
God is Holly, you can't find God if you are not holly. Back to Catholic Church and confess your sin. Your son is taken by God and he is happy with God, he is happier with God than with you.

hope you can find Him soon

Astreja said...

(rams large cutting of holly up the anus of the latest Anonymous, sharp pointy bits first)

Bugger off and take your pretend god with you. We are here to support Scott, not to talk about your hateful little mythology.

whateverlolawants said...

Scott:

I can't imagine what you're going through. I'm so sorry for your loss, and I really have no advice or comforting words. Your story really described how awful it must be.

I liked what Ricky said about 4 dimensions; I feel the same way. Those good times are always there, in a way. My losses have never been nearly as bad as yours, but it helps me to think of the good times I had with people and pets who are gone now. I feel like they are kept alive in my memory. That is terribly cliche, but it's how I've always thought, and perhaps that thought will resonate with you, too.

Everyone else:

As far as that whole "God is teaching you a lesson" or "God is testing you" garbage, I thought of a similar analogy. Imagine a parent who wants to teach their young child a lesson- say, about the fragility of life, or how to mourn, or to lean on their parents in times of need- that parent could arrange for the child's beloved pet rabbit to die. Imagine the parent observing their child's reaction upon discovering the pet's dead body. The child is devastated; the rabbit's death is a tragedy for the child. And that parent knows he or she MADE the tragedy happen.

How might this parent feel? Hopefully, they would be struck with remorse for the horrible thing they had done. But we can assume God doesn't do that, because he keeps on doing it, over and over to new families every day. So instead, the parent continues to feel justified in what they did. They pretend to show their child sympathy, but deep down, they are pleased that the child is suffering, for that means that the parent's plan worked. Most of us would say that parent is sick and abusive.

Finally... to the last anonymous poster:

What the FUCK is wrong with you? You disgust me. Please deeply consider your insensitivity and stupidity. Do you really mean what you said? If so, you are a horrible individual. If not, learn to fucking think for yourself.

gweny said...

Scott,

I understand your pain, as much as a person could who hasn't lost a child..I have three children myself, and that has been one of my greatest fears, knowing this life is so unpredictable.

I also understand your dislike (putting it mildly) of Christians. I grew up as a pastors kid, and there are many things that I was taught as a kid that I know now to be completely wrong.

I no longer belong to a "church" (I just see them as glorified social clubs), and I never will...all they are about is pretending to be better than they really are...

This said, I have to tell you...don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

I have found that there is a God out there and he is waaaay different than we have been taught. He is not a God that expects us to follow a bunch of principles or a certain religion.

I recently read a great book, that is very controversial, but nonetheless, I think it is truer than anything I have read yet.

I encourage everyone to read it...It is called "The Shack". It is a story of a man who felt like he had followed God all his life only to have his young daughter brutally murdered by a serial killer. He receives a note from God to meet him in The Shack where his daughter was killed...you can imagine the anger and hopelessness. But he meets a God there that is different than anything I have ever understood.

Here is a link where you can find the book, as it isn't in any stores that I know of.
http://www.theshackbook.com/

jim earl said...

A god that allows shit to happen is not really a real god. A real god would take care of his subjects.

Conclusion: There is no real gods.

jim earl said...

I going out on a limb here and guessing the book, The Shack, is fiction. The clue was god sending the man a note. I would meet god too if he would send me even a post it.

The reoccuring theme I saw in the quotes of readers of this book was that it inspired them to continue to belive in a god. PLEASE TELL ME I AM WRONG.

gweny said...

I hope He does send you a post it :o)...although I am pretty sure you would toss it since, you don't believe in God, and I am pretty sure you would think it was a prank or something...

I have a question for you..."If" there was a God, would you want him to force you to love Him? Would you want him to force you to live the way he wanted? Would you want him to force you to eat what he thinks you should, work where he thinks you should, talk the way he thinks you should, and treat people the way he thinks you should so that no one gets hurt?

He gave us free will and choice, and we have ran with it and messed up this world beyone belief and then get mad at him for what we have done. And I am not saying that Scott losing Connor was his fault...just the result of a broken world.

And you are right...The Shack may encourage a belief in God..as it shows a whole other picture of God than religion teaches.

I am glad you at least checked out the link, though!:o)

stronger now said...

So evidence for god is found in fiction.

Fantastic.

I can't believe I've been so right about something.

boomSLANG said...

I have a question for you......"If" there was a God, would you want him to force you to love Him?

I have a question for you...."If" you were mugged at gunpoint in an alley, and the mugger said, "give me your wallet, or I'll splatter your brains against the dumpster"....would you look at that situation as he's "forcing you"?... or allowing you to exercise your "freewill""? Which?

gweny said...

""So evidence for god is found in fiction. ""

hmmmm..of course...."if" there was a God and he were good, I would think that he would reveal himself to us in whatever way we could understand...because He is written about in fiction doesn't neccesarily mean He is fiction...there are a lot of things and people written about in fictional stories that are actually true...


""I have a question for you...."If" you were mugged at gunpoint in an alley, and the mugger said, "give me your wallet, or I'll splatter your brains against the dumpster"....would you look at that situation as he's "forcing you"?... or allowing you to exercise your "freewill""? Which?""

I know you think this is how God is, and I can't blame you because this is how he is portrayed by religions who have grossly misinterpreted and misrepresented the Bible to control and manipulate people to benefit themselves...This is not the God I have experienced, and this is not the God protrayed in this book.

AtheistToothFairy said...

gweny said
"This is not the God I have experienced, and this is not the God protrayed in this book"
--
Oh great, yet another believer that has found their own UNIQUE version of god to sell us.
We've never seen anyone here before claim to have the ONLY correct understanding of this god being, no, never ever. [rolling eyes]

Okay gweny, if you want any of us to buy YOUR version of this god you experienced, you will naturally have to provide us proof that you alone discovered the 'right' god. A 'right god' that surely found YOU as his/her sole human prophet to spread his/her word to the rest of this planet's humans.

Don't you find it very odd gweny, that you were the one chosen to discover the correct version of god and that this god at the same time, chose to ignore the majority of the planet in making himself known.
That has to be far less of a chance than winning some international lottery and I'm so fortunate to have run into you qweny....like WOW.

So gweny, what type of real proof will you provide us lost souls to make your case for your own particular god person?

Will it be a little voice you heard that claimed to be god speaking directly to you?

Will it be that god came to you in a dream or woke you up from sleep to appear in your bedroom to you?

Will it be you felt this version of god in your human heart and wish to enlighten us to your feelings about him?

Will you claim (as many do with hearsay) that he healed some aliment you or someone you know, had going on?

Tell ya what gweny, how about praying to this god you're in contact with and having him/her do a real miracle for us.
How about restoring a severed limb or perhaps move one of those mountains god speaks about moving so easily with faith alone, from your bible book.

Well folks, maybe it finally happened.
Just maybe the one true modern prophet of god has finally shown up to provide us with not only the 'right stuff' about god, but will also come across with THE proof we've all been asking for.

All hail gweny and the long awaited, and now revealed, TRUE GOD.


ATF (who wonders which of the super-gods we hear about all the time, will win the 'battle of the gods' contest)

gweny said...

""Oh great, yet another believer that has found their own UNIQUE version of god to sell us.
We've never seen anyone here before claim to have the ONLY correct understanding of this god being, no, never ever. [rolling eyes]""

Okay, maybe I deserve this, but in reality I never claimed to have my own UNIQUE version of God...

Actually I know countless people who have experienced this same God, and He isn't just wanting "one prophet" as you say, but he wants intimacy, a deep real, revealing relationship with everyone...there is no spokesperson.

I am not here to prove anything...I can't, because this thing has to be between each person and God themself....I could even do all kinds of miracles, and many would beleive it was just some tricks or hocus pocus.

I am only saying that maybe, just maybe the whole religious system is set up by man, maybe well intentioned at first, but it has become a horrible, controling, manipulating thing that only seeks its own interests, and distracts from who God really is.

Over the centuries there are countless examples of people who, despite the organized systems, have discovered something close and personal, and real. I think God reveals who he really is to those who really wish to find Him and not some rules or religion to follow. These people at the time spoke out against these religious organizations for the damage they did, and these people often were killed for it.

This doesn't sound like a boring, sit in the pew, be nice to everyone, follow all the rules kind of religion...it's not...it is a mysterious, unpredictable, indefinable relationship with the Good Living God.

I know this sounds like preaching, and really I am not trying to convince anyone, (maybe a little :o))...

AtheistToothFairy said...

Trevor spit-out:
>"I'll pray for you, even though you don't appear to believe in a loving God anymore"

Trevor,

Suppose that Scott switched to a different ' loving god' since he turned his back on your own; would you then pray to his new god; on his behalf as well?
Just curious if you'd pray to anyone's current god to help them or if you can only pray to your own imaginary xtian god?

If you're up to it, I'd like you to pray to ALL the GODS on my behalf. If ANY of the many made-up gods answers me with something tangible, I'll be sure to share it with you !!


>"The only thing I can say about your friend's comment, is that He knows his God. He said He'd kill his son because He knows his God loves much, much better than he does. By knowing this truth, he also knows that obedience is the only option....nothing to worry about, because God is not malicious"


Trevor,
First off, you are one SICK PUPPY to make such a statement !!!!

What a shame you are so brainwashed in your own delusions that you can't see the fallacy in your own 'thinking'.....That is, if you knew how to actually 'think' and not keep relying on replaying the 'endless loop tape' of your bible fables, to your walled up mind.

First off, what logical reasoning do you use in your twisted mind, to support the idea that an all-powerful, all-loving god would even ask a parent to kill their own child.
Forget for a moment, what your stupid ancient sheep-herder bible tells you from those old fables.
Why would any real loving god stoop so low in some test of faith, to ask anyone to kill their own child?

Besides the fact that any all-knowing god would already know the answer to the question about a followers faith, the very act of even 'pretending' to sacrifice a child would severely scar that child emotionally for the rest of it's life.

Let's suppose your god didn't stop the sacrifice of this child.
What value does this god place on a child's life if it will let it die just for some 'test of faith' purpose?

If taking a child's life (prematurely) is no big deal to your god, then why not take every child's life and save them the trouble of having to live out life on this sometimes cruel heartless earth.
If heaven is so grand, then why not kill off all our innocent xtian children for your god, so they can quickly get their heavenly reward; before they get old enough to 'sin' and possibly go to hell.

If this idea can't be part of your god's plan, then why would a few select innocent children get to reap the reward of going to heaven before their 'test' on earth was completed?
Why would some humans get to escape the god-test of adulthood, while others (children) get a free-pass to heaven instead?

In the case of the parent killing their own child, it's not as if that child itself was 'key' in this test of faith to make it the goal of the test, but rather it was a test of the parents faith and the child is just an innocent bystander to this god-test.

Can't you see such a test of faith is totally ridiculous, not to mention extremely cruel, to ALL parties concerned?
I'm SURE the rest of the sane folks here can see the obvious problem with such a faith test.


ATF (who thinks the "Job" story of the bible is just as ridiculous and cruel)

gweny said...

athiesttoothfairy... (cute name) I agree with you an a lot of this...

>"The only thing I can say about your friend's comment, is that He knows his God. He said He'd kill his son because He knows his God loves much, much better than he does. By knowing this truth, he also knows that obedience is the only option....nothing to worry about, because God is not malicious"

I see this as sick also...this is partly what is wrong with the whole religious system...Number one, it isn't about obedience....If I understand how much God loves me and watches out for me, obedience is a moot point...again, this isn't suppossed to be about following all the rules...Jesus himself pushed the bar so high that we might see it is impossible to get to Him by following the rules.

And the whole story about Abraham and Isaac could be seen in a whole different way...I don't totally understand it myself, but here is my take...

God asks Abraham to offer his own son as a sacrifice...never intending him to actually do it, but knowing the culture that Abraham had come out of...a culture where child sacrifice was the norm. God wanted in the end to show that He wasn't like the other Gods, that He DIDN'T need us to appease him, God Himself provided the sacrifice that would free us.

Okay, I will take a breath and stop preaching now.

gweny said...

One last post from me here (unless I can't resist to jump in and open my big mouth).

Scott,
I understand that you are going through indescribable pain at losing your son to cancer...you should never have had to go through that, much less your son. I can understand that you are angry and even hate God and want to write him off.

I honestly can't say how I would handle it if I had to watch one of my kids die from cancer...I shake to think of it...I might accuse God as well.

Actually there have been hard times in life when I have accused God, and hated God....In the end I found out that it wasn't Him that had done those things to me, but that He could handle my anger and hate. He wanted to use those tragedys and turn them into something good. He wanted to take the circumstances that were meant for evil in my life and brought something good of them.

Right now I am sure that it is impossible to believe that something good could come of your son's death...and I am sure this sounds really absurd....

And I really don't know what else to say...if I could, I would sit and cry with you...because, really , you know, there are no words.....

I'll be your huckleberry said...

Gweny: "Okay, maybe I deserve this, but in reality I never claimed to have my own UNIQUE version of God..."

Well, I'm slightly intelligent, if you communicate to me the exact God I should be looking for, then, it stands to reason, I should be able to know the "exact" same God you do, right?

Just to make sure we get the same God, what distinctive characteristics should I be looking for, so that I don't misidentify the God you are claiming, with all of those other gods, like Allah, Ra, Satan, Zeus, etc.

I'm reading a new book, recently acquired, here's a nice passage.

"What is it the Bible teaches us?-rapine, cruelty, and murder. What is it the Testament teaches us?-to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."

So, should I put out a cosmological APB for an omni-potent perv?

boomSLANG said...

I asked(previously): "If" you were mugged at gunpoint in an alley, and the mugger said, "give me your wallet, or I'll splatter your brains against the dumpster"....would you look at that situation as he's "forcing you"?... or allowing you to exercise your "freewill""? Which?

Gweny replied: I know you think this is how God is...

No, you're wrong...I don't think that is the way "God is"--- because I do NOT believe in any such being... regardless of which model, version, type, or edition you had in mind. It was a hypothetical senario, based on the hypothetical Christian idea of "salvation".

BTW, you say the words "I know" quite a bit. Let's see, later on, how that stacks up.

..and I can't blame you because this is how he is portrayed by religions who have grossly misinterpreted and misrepresented the Bible to control and manipulate people to benefit themselves...

Yes, everyone else has misinterpreted the Bible; but you, and a select few, have the One True Interpretation. Uh-huh. Do you have any idea how incredibly arrogant that sounds? Nonetheless, let's see if you can validate this unusual claim of yours....

This is not the God I have experienced, and this is not the God protrayed in this book.

Tell us, in detail---by what means do you communicate with this alleged Creator of the Universe?.... and/or, what makes your interpretation of revealed biblical text unique?.....unique to the point that it makes you right, and most of humanity wrong?? Listening.

Gweny: This said, I have to tell you...don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

..whAT "baby"?

gweny said...

Since you asked.... :o) ...I may just have to put my foot in my mouth again. Like I said before, I don't claim to have all the answers...I am still learning a lot and will keep doing so, I am sure, till the day I die.

""Just to make sure we get the same God, what distinctive characteristics should I be looking for, so that I don't misidentify the God you are claiming, with all of those other gods, like Allah, Ra, Satan, Zeus, etc.""

Well, since I feel there is only ONE God, the others don't exist, and if you honestly seek after the One God...He will show himself to you...I have described Him in the best way I know how...He is Good...

I don't understand a lot about the Old Testament either...what I do know is that this is a messed up world since Adam and Eve mistrusted God and decided to go it on their own. The Old Testament is relationship with God through the perspective of humans...so it is far from perfect...and we humans misinterpret a lot of it still today. (I am not saying that I interpret it all correctly, far from it...but God is helping me see it through his eyes...which he will do for anyone that asks....I by no means think I am better or more special than the next person)

There is a lot in the Old Testament that shows the reality of this broken world, and it also shows mans attempts to get to God...some through rules and some realizing there was no keeping the rules...It is a picture of God meeting people where they are and not expecting them to be perfect, it is a picture of God makeing good out of bad.

And as far as the New Testament, I don't believe that God had sex with Mary, as he isn't male or female...but if God can create man and woman in the beginning, what is different about him creating a baby inside Mary....actually, God put himself there because He wanted to sympathize with our pain, rejection and loneliness....He created us knowing that we would turn our backs on Him and wreak havock...and He also did it knowing that He himself would pay the ultimate cost for what we have done...to redeem the evil and turn it to good.

Have you ever wondered while Jesus was here and He did miracles and told those involved to not tell anyone...and why He shushed the demons when they pointed out who He was?

They knew He was God, for the most part the disciples and the others around didn't really get that, and He didn't want them to...He knew in their culture if they knew who He really was, they would be afraid of Him, and any chance at a real honest relationship would be out the window, because they would just try and impress Him, and not just be theirselves...

Notice when Thomas doubted, Jesus was okay with it...He allowed Thomas to feel His wounds....Notice when Jesus knew Peter would deny Him, He didn't rebuke Peter, or tell Him to hide under a rock....He let Peter know that He had already forgiven him for it, and not to give in to the guilt, but to be there for the other disciples, and later reminds Peter that He doesn't hold it against him.

The whole New Testament is about God's love and mercy and forgiveness. He could have judged those men who put Him on the cross, but He didn't...He forgave them.

Jesus died, not because God needed some kind of sacrifice...humans thought they needed it to get to God....He was showing us how much we could trust in God's love for us...He is hanging on the cross, obviously in immense pain he only says a few things...."My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"..Jesus understood what if felt like to be forsaken, to be misjudged, to be unfairly murdered by people who just the day before were praising Him....He also percieved forsakeness from his Father...that doesn't mean He actually was, but He felt the anquish of it...then he says...."Into your hands I commit my Spirit"...He was showing us that we could trust Father even when circumstances were at their worst....then Jesus beats death, and comes to show there is a much bigger picture.

And after He ascends the disciples finally understand that relationship in a way that they all died for it...they knew there was a much bigger picture...that this isn't all their is.

God is not an angry perverted God...we are the ones that have perverted His beautiful creation, and then get angry at Him for it! Fortunately for us He is patient!

Okay....you asked for it...didn't you! :oP

gweny said...

Boomslang...I just read your comment...

I am sorry, I did slip up...most of you here don't believe in any God...

And again, I don't feel that I have some unique view on God...a lot I have learned has come from other people, as well as understandings from, yes, God himelf. There are many books, that have been written over centuries about God that have shed a lot of light on this...this sounds crazy, and maybe I am...but what I am experiencing with God is incredible, and the ways He has opened my eyes and changed who I am...cleared out a lot of the junk I hated about myself and had tried for years to change...the way that he has healed a lot of the pain that this world brings...the way He has given me freedom from the stuff that has held me down...

Even if I am wrong, or misguided, and there really isn't a God (which I have complete confidence deep inside that there is)this is a great ride, and I wouldn't miss it for the world.

And I am no one special...this is for anyone who wants it, but like I said, God would never force it on anyone...

I know that religious organizations force and threaten, but what they forget to realize is that obviously you can't force anyone to love. They threaten people with hell, so they will go to their "church", but following laws and principles only brings death...not freedom and life. If you look, you can find this throughout the New Testament...some see rules, some see Life.

gweny said...

One more thing...

"Boomslang said...
Gweny: This said, I have to tell you...don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

..whAT "baby"?

This should be obvious...don't throw out God because of what people do...He is much different than us. There are a lot of people out there who know nothing of who God is, and they are frequently misrepresenting Him...

And I don't claim to speak for Him...I do not claim to have this all right...there is a tiny bit that I may understand, but there is tons and tons I don't.

But for now, this is what is real to me, and it feels like it is a huge anchor that keeps me hopeful and keeps me looking forward in anticipation to what comes next.

I'll be your huckleberry said...

Gweny: "Like I said before, I don't claim to have all the answers...I am still learning a lot and will keep doing so, I am sure, till the day I die."

I'm not so sure, you seem to know exactly what God is thinking, do you find that interesting in the least?

Gweny: "Well, since I feel there is only ONE God, the others don't exist, and if you honestly seek after the One God...He will show himself to you...I have described Him in the best way I know how...He is Good..."

So, Satan is not an option? Isn't Satan considered d'evil... You don't believe Satan exists? He's obviously on the God scale somewhere, he was an angel in heaven per the Christian tradition, who fell from grace, and is more powerful than a human, hence why Christians are typically told to invoke the name of God or Jesus in order to repel the Demon God...

So, do you accept Satan as a candidate god, or not... just trying to make sure, I don't get the wrong dude when I pray, for my sake...

Gweny: "I don't understand a lot about the Old Testament either..."

Okay, I suppose we don't have to get into it, unless you bring it up...

Gweny: "what I do know is that this is a messed up world since Adam and Eve mistrusted God and decided to go it on their own."

Can you show me in the bible, where it says, Adam and Eve mistrusted God? I thought Eve was tempted by Satan in the Garden, and gave in to... uh... well, let's just be nice and call it temptation, that lead to "carnal knowledge", if you know what I mean.

Gweny: "The Old Testament is relationship with God through the perspective of humans...so it is far from perfect...and we humans misinterpret a lot of it still today. (I am not saying that I interpret it all correctly, far from it...but God is helping me see it through his eyes...which he will do for anyone that asks....I by no means think I am better or more special than the next person)"

Well... except for having holy eyes, and God ESP, I suppose that I can see you point...

Can we try a verse? I want your perspective, perhaps I am not reading the passage correctly in the proper context.

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Again, do you believe there is a Satan, or, perhaps, God creates evil... what do you think?

Gweny: "There is a lot in the Old Testament that shows the reality of this broken world, and it also shows mans attempts to get to God...some through rules and some realizing there was no keeping the rules...It is a picture of God meeting people where they are and not expecting them to be perfect, it is a picture of God makeing good out of bad."

If God is making evil, then is he making it bad, in order to make things good? I'm confused.

Gweny: "And as far as the New Testament, I don't believe that God had sex with Mary, as he isn't male or female..."

Really, so, the immaculate insertion didn't happen?

Do you believe Mary got pregnant by a cosmological transexual/omnisexual/bi-sexual?

Gweny: "...but if God can create man and woman in the beginning, what is different about him creating a baby inside Mary....actually, God put himself there because He wanted to sympathize with our pain, rejection and loneliness...."

Just an itty bitty question here, if God is omniscient, then, what part of "all" wouldn't He/She/It understand, in order to be sympathetic?

Why wouldn't God just zap himself on the earth in full human form? However, let's talk about the bible, because what you are talking about is "not" in the bible, so... I have no "context" to what you are saying, other than a blog entry.

Gweny: "He created us knowing that we would turn our backs on Him and wreak havock...and He also did it knowing that He himself would pay the ultimate cost for what we have done...to redeem the evil and turn it to good."

Then, why did He/She/It create Hell before earth and mankind?

Do you know what "pre-destination" means?

Gweny: "Have you ever wondered while Jesus was here and He did miracles and told those involved to not tell anyone...and why He shushed the demons when they pointed out who He was?"

Can't say that I was here while Jesus was, so, I really can't describe the miracle part...

Gweny: "They knew He was God, for the most part the disciples and the others around didn't really get that, and He didn't want them to...He knew in their culture if they knew who He really was, they would be afraid of Him, and any chance at a real honest relationship would be out the window, because they would just try and impress Him, and not just be theirselves..."

Are you saying Mary had no clue that her child was the Messiah? As well, that Joseph wasn't aware of her pregnancy, where he wasn't the father? Now, that's a miracle.

Gweny: "Notice when Thomas doubted, Jesus was okay with it...He allowed Thomas to feel His wounds...."

Can you point to anywhere in the Old Testament where it says "Jesus" would be fulfilling the Old Testament prophesies? Hint, Jesus is never mentioned once in the Old Testament.

Can you point to anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus is said to be God? Hint... oh, I'll let you figure that out.

Can you point to anywhere in the bible, that has the words "original sin" posted? Hint, nowhere.

Can you point to anywhere in the bible, where Paul the apostle says that he actually meets Jesus? Hint, nowhere, he had a dream on the road to Damascus. Paul, started preaching about Jesus and formed the earliest Christian church - and never met Jesus.

Tell, me, do you find that odd?

Yeah, I can see how one would doubt, can't you...

Gweny: "Notice when Jesus knew Peter would deny Him, He didn't rebuke Peter, or tell Him to hide under a rock....He let Peter know that He had already forgiven him for it, and not to give in to the guilt, but to be there for the other disciples, and later reminds Peter that He doesn't hold it against him."

Actually, if Jesus is suggested to be God, and God is suggested to be omniscient, then Jesus knew he was going to die, and allowed himself to be murdered - in modern terminology that is called "suicide". What does your religion/bible teach about "suicide"? Is it a "good" thing, or a "bad" thing?

Gweny: "The whole New Testament is about God's love and mercy and forgiveness. He could have judged those men who put Him on the cross, but He didn't...He forgave them."

What about that part in revelations about the lake of fire, is that a good part for you?

Gweny: "Jesus died, not because God needed some kind of sacrifice...humans thought they needed it to get to God...."

That's not what the Old Testament says, there was no ultimate sacrifice necessary, all the Jews were saved, and everyone else, well, sucks to be them.

And, if God is a God, then why didn't he overcome this proposed anxiety people were having, by showing up as a God and telling everyone his/her/it's plan... why the Blood Sacrifice on a wooden pole?

However, you propose that God, instead of being honest and open about his Godness, played a theatrical role in order to get people to buy-in to him/her/it being God?

This is new to me, which part of the bible should I be looking in for this?

Gweny: "He was showing us how much we could trust in God's love for us..."

Okay, while he is theoretically hanging on the cross, is he also in heaven, or is that another God, his father, or perhaps he was praying to himself/herself/itself... What do you think?

Gweny, I'll leave it there until you can provide clarity on your current line of rhetoric.

Gweny: "God is not an angry perverted God...we are the ones that have perverted His beautiful creation,..."

Ah, is that your "perverted" point of view on the matter? So, you are suggesting that God had no idea that he was creating a perverted humanity? Yet, he obviously created Hell before Earth... How do you reconcile that?

If you are as perverted as all other humans, then how can you have "God ESP" and "Holy Eyes"? How do you escape your perversion, or sinful, dysfunctional and valueless self?

Friedrich Nietsche: "I find it necessary to wash my hands after I have come into contact with religious people."

Tennessee Williams: "All your Western theologies, the whole mythology of them, are based on the concept of a God as a senile delinquent."

And, for you Gweny...

Eric Hoffer: "To know a person's religion we need not listen to his profession of faith but must find his brand of intolerance."

So, you have discounted all other gods but One, should I consider you a Christian?

AtheistToothFairy said...

gweny said:
"God asks Abraham to offer his own son as a sacrifice...never intending him to actually do it, but knowing the culture that Abraham had come out of...a culture where child sacrifice was the norm. God wanted in the end to show that He wasn't like the other Gods, that He DIDN'T need us to appease him, God Himself provided the sacrifice that would free us"
--
Gweny,
So you're saying that the child sacrificing done in those ancient days was solely the idea of ONLY those humans, and that their god Yahweh had nothing to do with any of those child 'killings'?

I'm am SURE that many of the members here can show you many places in your bible where god commanded the death of INNOCENT children and "suckling" babies.
I can't say how many of these god commands one would consider a true "god sacrifice", but the result is exactly the same....the children DIE at the command of god.
Therefore, I very much beg to differ with you on your god not needing sacrifices (of any type).

Also, if your god was so morally against the killing of children, then why did he allow not only the killing of children (by not forbidding it in his laws) but didn't seem to mind one bit that parents would boil their children and then eat them for dinner (with or without ketchup-I'm not sure).

How about stoning children to death if they got too out-of-hand for their parents....Doesn't this god rule say a whole LOT about the nature of your divine god gweny, hmmm.

Gweny said elsewhere:
"Actually there have been hard times in life when I have accused God, and hated God....In the end I found out that it wasn't Him that had done those things to me, but that He could handle my anger and hate. He wanted to use those tragedys and turn them into something good"
--
Isn't this such a beautiful fairy tale to believe, to make one feel better when things go awry in life.
This goes right along with god letting bad things happen to us (or even creating those bad things) so we'll learn from the experiences of it.

Gweny.....isn't it FAR more likely that shit-happens in life (to be blunt) and there is no sky god up there in control over these events we ALL face in life from time to time?

If you were to look at statistics of luck (both good and bad) from folks of all religions (or no religion) what you would find is there is NO DIFFERENCE across the population where xtians get more or less bad/good luck than the rest of us.
This fun-fact alone speaks volumes to the idea that no god is around controlling anything about our lives on earth.

Okay, if your god is an active god with xtians, then answer these questions for me....

Do xtians (or even church leaders) get sick more or less than anyone else?
Do xtians recover from their illnesses faster or slower than non-xtians?
Do xtians win the lottery more or less than anyone else (averaged out equally for fairness)?
Do xtians recover from surgeries faster or slower than everyone else?
Do xtians live longer or shorter than non-xtians... if one removes the lifestyle factors from the equation?

Can you show me ANY statistics that would indicate something supernatural is actively taking part in the lives of xtians that might lead us to believe our earthly lives would be better worshipping your xtian god instead of some other god, or no god?

In my own personal life experience here, the xtians I know fare no better or worse in life than everyone else I know.
I also know that my life didn't take a huge positive or negative turn, when I went from believing in your xtian god, to not believing in any gods at all.
If your god is real, shouldn't there be some repercussions if one either turns their back on your god or becomes a believer, yet nothing changes in any real sense, other than the FEELINGS some get from the "experience" of pretending a sky god exists for them.
(Okay, one's wallet gets 10% more empty for xtians, but that is by their own choice)

Also Gweny, have you actually looked into just how real your jesus was here on this earth 2000 years ago?
Other than your blessed holy book, do you realize there is hardly a shred of evidence in secular history to support the idea that jesus even existed, let alone him having massive amounts of folks following him around in his wide travels.
Can you explain to us why such a hugely popular god-like man, failed to make the hit-parade of the history writers of those days?

Can you tell us why jesus didn't write his own book while he was here on earth?
He sure had plenty of time to do so, as it seems he wasn't doing much from the time he was 12 until he was 30.....Ever wonder why the bible is silent about most of his human years gweny, hmm?
(Not to mention, from birth to age 12)

With all those multitudes following him around for 3 years, why didn't he bother to have a 'scribe' following along to take notes of what he said.
Why did it take 300 years before we actually had a book called the "holy bible"...Why didn't jesus create this all important instruction book for us while he was still alive?
Why didn't he send such a book down to earth, directly after ascending back to heaven?

Why is everything about jesus written in the 3rd person... and in cases where no human was around to hear jesus speak, how did we come to know what he said?
Are you going to tell us that decades later when someone finally decided to document his life, that god up in heaven just filled in the blanks that weren't already hearsay?

Sorry gweny, but while I know it FEELS wonderful for you to have this jesus companion to love and protect you in life and offer you everlasting life after this one, there is almost no positive evidence to support this jesus character in history and plenty of negative circumstantial 'evidence' to say he never existed at all.
If you actually put aside your emotions on the matter and did some serious research, you'd discover your god/jesus was all made up by humans. Humans create their gods, yours included, I'm sorry to tell you.

Ahhh, but you won't take a serious look at anything that would disprove your god/jesus, because like most stubborn xtians, you fear the thought that such a god might not really exists for you. This is why xtians have no choice but to wear their blinders and ignore reality. It's a really hard road to travel, to give up one's personal god being, so most god worshippers will never consider the idea and will cling to their personal god in order to help them get thru this life.

It takes a LOT of courage to actually investigate the matter of jesus existing, so most xtians will never even peek under the wrapper of anything non-xtian. Some things of reality are just too painful for some folks to deal with is all.

So gweny, stay inside your god-fishbowl where you feel all safe and secure in your god beliefs. Just be a passive participant and never look outside that fishbowl to see if it's god feeding you, or just mere humans wanting you to believe in their feeding god.
As long as someone keeps shaking that god-food into the fishbowl once a day, you'll never have to question anything outside those glass walls of your tiny xtian universe on earth.



ATF

boomSLANG said...

Gweny regurgitated tired ol' Christian apologetic analogy # 2, which states:

...don't throw out the baby with the bath water...

(for the record, that is 2nd to # 1, which is, "God is like a snowcone on a hot day!!!")

Moving on, I ask the same question that I ask every time I see this ridiculously inapt analogy....

..whAT "baby"?

Gweny, apparently oblivious to the sarcasm, spells out:

This should be obvious...don't throw out God because of what people do...

No f%$#@*g DUH!!!!. And likewise, it should be obvious.... whAT "God"????

Here, allow me to spell it out for you:

Like practically every Christian armchair Evangelist who comes waltzing in here, you are merely AFFIRMING THE CONSEQUENCE. You merely jump in a conversation in progress, and blather on matter-of-factly about, a "thing" for which there is no empirical/tangible evidence. NONE.

Suppose in a Google search for shoes for plus-sized women, you stumbled upon "NationalBigfoot- tracker.blogspot.com". Intrigued, you join a conversation in progress, and ask: "Well, I've never seen such a thing as a Bigfoot, so I'm not sure such a thing exists." And I respond with: "Hey!... there are domestic community gorillas haunting our U.S. scrublands as we speak. They like fruit and ham sandwiches! They like to hide out in the forest and wait for people to go to sleep, and then they like to make figure-eights in people's backyards. People who haven't experienced these lovely creatures are too quick to judge them. Bigfeets are really quite nice if you get to know them!"

Now, honestly, what the hell have I done to convince you that such a "thing" exists? NOTHING, right? Right, yet I did the same thing you do with "God", and that is known as "affirming the consequence". To be sure, look at what you wrote about this "God" character:

"He is much different than us. There are a lot of people out there who know nothing of who God is, and they are frequently misrepresenting Him..."

compared to..

... They like fruit and ham sandwiches! They like to hide out in the forest and wait for people to go to sleep, and then they like to make figure-eights in people's backyards. People who haven't experienced these lovely creatures are too quick to judge them. Bigfeets are really quite nice if you get to know them!"

See?

Hopefully now that that little illustration has penetrated your cranium---where is your objective, universal evidence that a "God" exists, and that this "God" is the three-in-one, Father/Son/spook portrayed in the CHRISTIAN Holy Bible!?!?

Waiting.

Your Old Friend Ryan said...

Hey Scott... I'm sorry that you have been dealt a bumb hand. That is the worst possible thing for any parent to experience - the death of their child. Out here at the moment there is a story on the news of a child between 4 and 8 years old found floating, bound and gagged in a suitcase in a lake. A woman is arrested and being questioned ove the matter.
When we look at the atrocities around us in this world, and we see the violence, the loss of beautiful innocent children like your Connor, it does make you question where God is in all of it - does He really care? And if He did - why does He inflict these pains on the innocents?
There are no easy answers to any of this. The fall of man from GHod's intended perfection was the start of this - the decay the murders, the abuse. It is senseless and hopeless, evil and dark. Your Son Connor is a victim of that evil that has entered into our world as a result of sin. As a result of Man's sin - the first man Adam. And everything that is dark in this world is linked to that fall.
I am preaching now - but you need to know something. Your God, the One whom you have been seeking, IS there. He IS listening. And He knows what it is like to lose a Son - His ONLY Son.
The thing that God asked Abraham to do - with His son Isaac - was lunacy. God had said that He would raise up an inheritance for Abraham through this son Isaac. All of Abraham's hope depended on Isaac and him living long enough to have children of his own. And now God was asking him to hand over his hope. His joy. His amazing gift - the one thing that Abraham had desired all of his married life.
Abraham obeyed - because he understood that God could be trusted - even when the request that he received from Him was completely illogical and unrational. God tested Him - and provided in advance a way out for Abraham. The ram that was caught in the thicket didn't turn up when Abraham put his son on the altar. God had arranged that before Abraham and Isaac had even got to that place!
God had Isaac's best in His mind at all times. Like He has your Connor's best in His mind. Connor was very sick, and obviously in a lot of pain. The Lord hates to see children suffer, any of His children. Connor was one of His. Your God has Connor sitting beside Him right now - in a place that holds no pain or hurt for him. Connor can run and laugh, but best of all He is with His maker - the one who knew him intimately - formed him while he was still in his mother's womb.
When the grief has overcome you and you are angry, this is good. It is normal and right for you to feel lost and hurt. You loved this boy SO MUCH. And I know that your heart has been cut out. I have 3 boys and a girl myself. I would give my life gladly in the place of any of my children - as you would have too. Trust in this - that you were the best father Connor could have had. You were the one who he looked up to. You were the dad that he loved and couldn't wait to be like.
I pray that your wound will heal to a scar - not that you will forget, you will never forget, not that you will gloss over because that would tarnish your son's memory. Not that you would become calloused and cold and insensitive. Connor needs you to be his dad still. Needs you to look after yourself and the remainder of your family. He needs you to hope that there possibly could be some ounce of hope somewhere. We all know what happens if you lose all hope entirely - and it is not good. There is a blackness of your soul that consumes you completely when there is no hope.
I pray that you find hope again - that in your time of need you will again cry out to the only One who truly knows your pain. He hasn't removed your son from you - Leukaemia did that. He hasn't deserted you - He is still there. If you ask again, and do not stop aksing until you find Him - if you truly want to find Him - God will reveal Himself. It is not a trick of the mind or self-deception. There is a void inside each of us that needs to be filled, and only He is suitable. Your son sits with the great king. What he needs is his dad to sit there with him too - when his time has come and not prematurely of course! But you must hold on to your life, and the thinnest redline of hope that remains in you.

boomSLANG said...

Christian Ryan, as opposed to Ex-Christian Ryan, said:

Out here at the moment there is a story on the news of a child between 4 and 8 years old found floating, bound and gagged in a suitcase in a lake. A woman is arrested and being questioned ove the matter. When we look at the atrocities around us in this world, and we see the violence, the loss of beautiful innocent children like your Connor, it does make you question where God is in all of it - does He really care? And if He did - why does He inflict these pains on the innocents? There are no easy answers to any of this[bold added]

I beg to differ--there most certainly IS an easy answer, it's just that you, and your superstitious ilk, refuse to accept it.

Theist Ryan asserts, to someone who has lost a child:

Your Son Connor is a victim of that evil that has entered into our world as a result of sin

F%ck you, you ignorant insensitive son of a bitch.

The end.

stronger now said...

Christian ryan,

How can you be so heartless and cruel to tell unfounded tales of unfounded hope to a man who lost a child?

Asshole.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Stronger now-Wrote to Christian ryan:
"How can you be so heartless and cruel to tell unfounded tales of unfounded hope to a man who lost a child"
--
Hi Stronger,

Reading ryan's unsupported god dribble, is making me ILL here!!
Truly, it's much like munching on brimstone for sustenance...YUCK.
There just aren't words to describe spewing such mindless/heartless rhetoric to someone who has a very REAL loss to suffer with.

--
Ryan (explicative withheld, for now),

Your consoling efforts are about as warranted as saying to someone that the tooth fairy will leave them a wooden nickel under their pillow, for each of the dozen teeth they lost in last week's car wreck.
Would such consoling be 'right' for you Ryan.

Well, pretending there is a god, along with the god-spittle you preach here about this imaginary god spook of yours, is nothing less than CRUEL to someone dealing with such a loss.

If you could only see yourself as us ex-xtians see you!!
I suggest that if there is a horned devil, he's found a home inside you buster!!


ATF (who now feels the sudden need to wash away the germs of Ryan's heartless spittle)

Astreja said...

Once again, the true and ghastly face of Christian apologetics shows itself. I am literally shaking with rage right now after reading the latest toxic waste spill from that 'YOFR' asshole.

How hard can it be to offer condolences without tacking on a three-page essay on a mythical deity?

Jim Arvo said...

YOFR said "And He [God] knows what it is like to lose a Son - His ONLY Son."

Interesting.... And where do you believe Jesus is at this very moment? I assume what you meant to say is that god knows what it's like to lose a son BRIEFLY. If not, please clarify.

Jim Arvo said...

Oh, YOFR, I have another question for you concerning Abraham's near sacrifice of his son Isaac. Am I to understand that it's laudable to attempt to kill one's child provided that one is convinced it is according to god's wishes? If not, then again, please clarify.

Dave8 said...

Hey Jim, YOFR seems to only pop up to post his God claimed ESP drivel... It's easier for him to drone on in his creative charismatic way, instead of actually understanding what he's actually implying. What are we to do, but hope that we don't live next door to them :-) Have a great one.

Jim Arvo said...

Hello Scott,

I apologize. I often write quick responses to visiting Christians without reading through all the previous comments, or even the original posting. When I read your original post just now, I realized how petty it is to address anything but the grief you must be enduring. I too am a father, and I simply cannot imagine the agony of losing a child. My heart goes out to you, Scott. I don't know whether you have other children, or whether there is still that possibility for you, even through adoption. I hope so. My guess is that the hole in your life can only be mended to a degree by loving another child. Of course, there will never be another Connor--I don't mean to suggest that. But a child draws us in as no other relationship can. Nothing else is even close. I hope you can still experience the love of a child--through that child a bit of Connor will continue on, through his influence on you. I'm sorry if that sounds lame. I wish I could offer more.

gweny said...

Hello, I'm back...but I bet you were
hopeing I wouldn't come back :oP

I'll be your huckleberry said...

So, Satan is not an option? Isn't Satan considered d'evil... You don't believe Satan exists? He's obviously on the God scale somewhere, he was an angel in heaven per the Christian tradition, who fell from grace, and is more powerful than a human, hence why Christians are typically told to invoke the name of God or Jesus in order to repel the Demon God...

Satan is only an option if you want him to be...Satan is not a god, as he was created...I don't worry about him....God can handle him :o)

I'll be your huckleberry said...

I'm am SURE that many of the members here can show you many places in your bible where god commanded the death of INNOCENT children and "suckling" babies.

Like I said, I DON'T understand everything...it is easy to interpret things at surface value...I often find there is a lot below the surface that I can't see yet...

I'll be your huckleberry said...

Can you show me in the bible, where it says, Adam and Eve mistrusted God? I thought Eve was tempted by Satan in the Garden, and gave in to... uh... well, let's just be nice and call it temptation, that lead to "carnal knowledge", if you know what I mean.

Genesis 3:4..."You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. vs5..."For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

In summary...."God wasn't telling the truth and can't be trusted...He is holding out on you, because not only will you not die, but you will be like God, and can be independent of Him"

And here we are today, still trying to live life independent of God.


I'll be your huckleberry said...

..."except for having holy eyes, and God ESP..."

Close...:o)..actually, just a one on one relationship will do, sorta like humans do with each other...

In reference to Adam and Eve above...we were all meant to learn the difference between good and evil in a relationship with God...understanding it through His eyes.....Have you noticed that, really, everyone passes judgement to some extent, you feel that Christians judge you (and probably justly so) and at the same time you judge me for what you think I am...everyone sees the world and judges the world (and I am not meaning secular, just the physical world and the happenings that go on)through the lenses of their own experiences. Your experiences in your mind tell you there isn't a God...and I feel that mine have shown me that there is. Beyond that we judge everything in life to be 'good' or 'bad' to some extent.

I have come to experience that a lot of my judgments, that I have felt so right in have not necessarily been so, and seeing them through God's eyes, I get a whole new perspective on them...I have changed a lot throught these perspectives to become a more compassionate mother, wife and friend. And I am also learning to enjoy life more, when I had been letting a lot of horrible circumstances beyond my control, to control me and make me a miserable, bitter person all because of my perspectives and judgements.

I think we were originally meant to learn to really judge good and evil through our relationship eith God, just like I spend time with my own kids to help teach them about life.


Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


You are great at picking out single verses to back up what you want to believe...:o)

The versions of the Bible that I have don't say "create evil"....but God did create everything...and He gave Satan a choice to choose good or evil...and us as well...before that there was only good...so in that sense...He did create it, to give us choice, but He does not 'do' evil....


Anyway, this could go on forever...and I am running out of time in my day sitting on this computer...and I have a life to live....so quick summary to hit a few points...then gotta go.

You have to remember what I said earlier, that I don't necessarily go along with all the religion that organizations spout....like the "do good, get good, do bad, get bad" theology...God is not like that...He doesn't punish when we get it wrong, and reward when we get it right...that is a human thing...He is a loving Father that will walk through our lives with us helping us sort though the good and the bad...I have not met one person yet on this earth who hasn't at some point experienced something tragic, and at some point hasn't experienced something great...although sometimes we miss that because we are focused on the mess.

I see a God who created each one of us with something great in mind, and we have gotten twisted by our determination to be independent of Him, and He wants to patiently wants to put it straight so we can be all we were meant to be.....He doesn't intend to punish, or demand that we follow a bunch of rules, because He knows that rules kill a relationship. But He intends to correct us when we welcome it, but He will leave us alone if that is what we want, although it breaks His heart.

Everyone, even you here have a deep desire to have a relationship with someone who will love us for who we are, unselfishly...and most of the time we look to humans to fill that, but time and time again, we realize that people are ultimately self-centered...we will look after ourselves and our own interests first....God gave up his divinity, which He could have held over us...but He didn't consider being God 'something to be grasped' but He became a poor human to show us the way back.

Now I know there will probably be a lot more questions, and I realize they are meant more to criticize and provoke me, because you pick and choose what you believe...and I was going to try and answer each question the best I could, and some I really have no answer to at this point...If we could totally understand everything about God, would He really be God?

And my relationship with a Loving Father, is not some kind of hocus pocus thing, or ESP, or just something I blindly believe....I have criticized, asked questions, accused and hated God...and this is where He has brought me....It is not just based on the Bible, because growing up I, like a lot of you, had too much of it rammed down my throat, and although I do read it at times, I still struggle a lot with seeing it all in a religious light...because that is what I have been taught so long...

I know now that there is more to it than that, because I have experienced it, and because I have not been alone in experiencing it...and I have questioned myself many times and still do sometimes, but this is the most REAL relationship I have ever experienced...so much that I really don't think it is possible for ANYONE to convince me He doesn't exist. And like I said, it isn't just me, but thousands of people all around the globe who have come to understand the same things, without being influenced by each other...I have come to find them through the internet and by traveling. And not always intending to find them. This is an incredible journey. And it really is for anyone that wants it.

And to quote Forest Gump..."That's all I got to say about that" :o)
You are going to hate me for saying it, but God Bless You all!

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...

Gweny: "Satan is only an option if you want him to be...Satan is not a god, as he was created...I don't worry about him....God can handle him :o)"

Your word God isn't what I was targeting, how do "I", a mere "mortal", know who "I" am praying to - your idea of God has nothing to do with "me", or are you not following.

Gweny: "You are great at picking out single verses to back up what you want to believe...:o)"

Gweny: "The versions of the Bible that I have don't say "create evil"...."

You are great at picking out single bibles to back up what you want to believe... :o)

Gweny: "...but God did create everything...and He gave Satan a choice to choose good or evil..."

Interesting, which bible are you reading from, that says God created Satan and gave him a choice on whether or not to be good or evil... an omniscient God already "knows" why he creates, and "what" a creation will render - evil. Or, do you not believe your idea of God is perfect and omniscient?

Gweny: "...and us as well..."

Gweny, I haven't had a God visit me and give me a choice about anything. Besides, until you can actually tell me what distinctive characteristics define your idea of a God, I can't really know what you are talking about.

Gweny: "...before that there was only good..."

Again, which bible, and define "only" good, obviously, some-thing was thinking about "evil", in order to create it... if a person or thing thinks about sin/evil, haven't they already committed the act of sin/evil in their hearts :o]

Gweny: "so in that sense...He did create it, to give us choice,"

So, creating evil is okay, as long as it is for a good cause?

Gweny: "...but He does not 'do' evil...."

The act of creating is a verb, it means to "do", therefore, God in his infinite wisdom, "planned" and "created" evil, that means, he engaged in "evil" acts.

Gweny, in law, pre-meditation means pre-planned crime. The God ideal you are describing is the epitome of some-thing that pre-planned hell, evil, and everything else in this Universe. An omniscient God is responsible for "everything", not just "some things".

If you want to theoretically propose that this God wanted what was best for us, then why was Satan created at all? Are you suggesting that an all powerful and omniscient God couldn't figure out how to allow us to have freedom of choice, without "Hell"?

If we truly have free choice, then Hell wouldn't be an antagonist to our freedom of will.

If we were to have "true" freedom of choice, without fear, so that we come to our "true" natures, then "Hell" would never have become a word used to control and drive people to "act" differently than they would have normally done.

All that has happened with the inception of the word Hell is that people are explicitly "faking" their true natures, for their desire for personal reward.

Here's some wisdom for you; if you really want to know what a persons' character is "really" like, give them a billion dollars and total freedom of action. You will know in little time, whether they are someone you would want to hang out with - ever.

Do you think that a God could have figured that one out? In theory, he's separating the chaff from the wheat, by using Hell as a motivator, he's "buying" spiritual loyalty, using manipulation.

The ones he will end up with, are those who were prone to spiritual piracy, e.g., those who seek spiritual rewards/treasure, that was "never" really truly theirs to begin with.

I used to wonder why prisons are so full, I am getting a clearer picture as I get older.

gweny said...

Okay, the whole Hell thing....religious organizations have used a few, very few and vague verses on hell to manipulate people to get 'saved'...I am not so sure that is what those few verses were intended for...because I don't feel that God manipulates at all....And where are you getting God creating Hell before creation???

The whole reason God created the Angels and us Humans was to share, completely unselfishly, the incredible relationship between the trinity...the little bit that I do remember, and this is coming from Christian Doctrine 101 in highschool...ages ago....that Satan, or Lucifer, was created as a beautiful angel of light...but his head got to big for himself, and it became about himself....you know, I haven't done a lot of reading up on Lucifer since way back, and since so much of what I believe now is pretty shooken up from what it was before, I am not really sure where to go with this at this point..

God created us to include us in something incredible, but in order for us to love Him back and want to be a part of who He is, He had to leave the chance for us to refuse Him, and go our own way...the only other option is eith robots, or forced love, and that is no love at all.

The whole point in someone loving you is in thier choice and desire...that's what makes it so great...

God doesn't come down and ask you point blank, of course, but you still have the choice every day...obviously you don't believe there is a God...and thus you have made your choice.

I am not one to say you need to believe in God or go to hell, since I know that is manipulation, and I know God doesn't manipulate...

And I have been telling you who this God is all along...I have been describing Him with every post I have made...

I gotta go for now...gotta run my son to football practice...

rickyusvi said...

@gweny: God is imaginary. All discussions and dissertations about God are academic. Hypothetical. Irrelevant. You say you feel God’s presence. Well, i had some vicious heartburn Saturday morning. Was that evidence of Satan’s presence?

@YOFR: Heaven is imaginary. All discussions and dissertations about heaven are useless. Connor is not sitting beside your imaginary God. He is not running or laughing. He’s dead, get it? Scott appears to understand that; but you would “comfort” him with denial.

Splitting hairs over Abraham and Isaac is absurd, as they are both as fictional as Yahweh. Still, to dwell on that story shows appalling insensitivity. Have your trust in your absentee Sky Daddy and your hope in things that aren’t going to happen so numbed you to real life that you cannot tell how hurtful your comments are?

rickyusvi said...

Scott,

My condolences as well. I wish i had something more to offer, but all i have are some cyberhugs. (((((((Scott)))))))

I was wondering if you could please share with us one of the good times you had with Connor. If you don’t wish to share, that’s OK.

I ask because i once saw the Web site dedicated to Daniel Mauser, one of the Columbine victims. Unlike the Web site of the famous victim, a glorification of human sacri... er, martyrdom, Daniel’s site is a celebration of his life, not his death. To me, that put a real person, and a lot of meaning, on the news story.

gweny said...

@gweny: God is imaginary. All discussions and dissertations about God are academic. Hypothetical. Irrelevant. You say you feel God’s presence. Well, i had some vicious heartburn Saturday morning. Was that evidence of Satan’s presence?

UMMM...This is your belief..., your experience...that doesn't make it true...You can't "prove" your point of view anymore that I can in a scientific sense...That doesn't make Him any less real to me. Actually, in reality there are many evidences that God exists...I don't know how some people can believe in evolution...I know that isn't really a topic I want to get in a big argument over...this one is enough....but it takes just as much faith that the life and beauty organization in this world just 'happened', actually more, I think, than it takes to believe in God.

And what is so bad about giving someone hope in this life....Maybe that is why so many people are on anti-depressants anymore...because you take away hope...

J. C. Samuelson said...

Gweny,

I haven't been following the discussion here, but this caught my eye:

...it takes just as much faith that the life and beauty organization in this world just 'happened'

Not one evolutionary biologist I've ever heard speak or whose books I've read would ever suggest that the intricate complexity of life "just happened." Not trying to open a new can of worms for anyone here, but evolution is not about randomness. Never has been since Darwin proposed it. Natural selection, the primary mechanism under the evolutionary model, is decidedly non-random. Please educate yourself. Understanding Evolution would be a great place to start.

gweny said...

If not random...who chose the order? Saying that evolution isn't random seems to me is the same as saying that someone guided it.

boomSLANG said...

Gweny: UMMM...This[heartburn is caused be "Satan"] is your belief..., your experience...that doesn't make it true

Leave it to Christians to shoot themselves in the foot.

The writer was trying to prove a point. But Gweny fires back by saying that one's personal experiences/opinions, and the subsequent beliefs derived from them, are not necessarily true, just because one believes them to be true.

Well, no duh?!?!?.... however, Gweny, you turn right around and say this: ...You can't "prove" your point of view anymore that I can in a scientific sense...That doesn't make Him any less real to me[bold added]

Understood. Then try to realize that no matter how long you go on and on and on about your personal opinions and "experiences" about how "God is real" to you, it won't convince us that your belief has any referent in objective reality. 'Follow?

Fallacy/screw-up # 2: Actually, in reality there are many evidences that God exists...

You just said, yourself, that you CANNOT prove your case "scientifically". Let's review: ...You can't "prove" your point of view anymore that I can in a scientific sense[bold added]

Then you continues: I don't know how some people can believe in evolution...

Let's humor you, and assume that evolution is an evil conspiracy; that's it's totally false.

That is "evidence" of nothing, except that evolution is false. "Creationism" doesn't magically become "true", because some other theory is false. If we prove that gremlins didn't steal the clothes off the clothes line, that doesn't PROVE that pixies took them. 'Get it?

Moving on--let's do a simple experiement. >>>Without<<< navigating away from this page, please describe, in a short paragraph, what the Theory of Evolution actually means. Waiting.

Gweny: ...it takes just as much faith that the life and beauty organization in this world just 'happened', actually more, I think, than it takes to believe in God.

Fallacy # 3. Appeal to emotion. "God is like a snowcone on a hot summer's day!" You are taking the position of a Lookist. Do not hurricanes, viruses, and lightening strikes "just happen"?

Please..."beauty", or the desirable, is not "evidence" for "good ghosts", anymore more than the ugly and undesirable is evidence for "bad ghosts".

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...

Gweny: "Okay, the whole Hell thing....religious organizations have used a few, very few and vague verses on hell to manipulate people to get 'saved'..."

Gweny, a single verse is available to be used by anyone who reads it, in any way they want to use it. The problem isn't that the bible can be used to manipulate others; the problem is that the bible has no control factors, to "ensure" it is interpreted in the "positive" terms you are suggesting; therefore, it holds the potential for perpetual manipulation.

Gweny: "I am not so sure that is what those few verses were intended for...because I don't feel that God manipulates at all...."

2 Thessalonians 2:11 - "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

Ezekiel 14:9 - "And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."

Jeremiah 20:7 - "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."

Jeremiah 4:10 - "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people."

2 Chronicles 18:22 - "Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets."

1 Kings 22:23 - "Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

Well, I'm pretty sure there are verses in the bible that require your attention on the matter.

Gweny: "And where are you getting God creating Hell before creation???"

In Genesis, God created the earth, "after" the heavens, unless you actually believe that Hell is here on earth somewhere, then, Hell was created before earth, and before humankind was placed here - per the bible.

Gweny: "The whole reason God created the Angels and us Humans was to share, completely unselfishly, the incredible relationship between the trinity..."

Can you point that out in the bible somewhere, or is that Gweny's view on deitical interpretation?

Gweny: "...but his head got to big for himself, and it became about himself...."

So, there's vanity/sin in heaven?

Gweny: "God created us to include us in something incredible, but in order for us to love Him back and want to be a part of who He is, He had to leave the chance for us to refuse Him, and go our own way...the only other option is eith robots, or forced love, and that is no love at all."

:-) You make free-will and choice sound like God's gift to humanity; as if, we each have an equal opportunity to love your "unidentified" God idea back.

Skirting around the abstract concept of probability/chance, let's focus on opportunity. First, there nature, our biological vessel that allows us to have freedom of physical movement, not all people are physically the same, thus, they really don't have as many options as other people.

And, most importantly, my philosophy in life, is, if you are going to communicate on a particular level of intellect, you have to conform to the structure on that level. So, hopefully, you can understand that "mentally" not everyone has the "same" level of opportunity for free will and choice.

An example; a brain dead individual has "zero" free will or choice because they have no "knowledge", due to biological factors. A person who is slightly above brain-dead, with an IQ of +1, has not much better a chance of free will or choice, as they have no knowledge to "choose" from either... going on, let's say someone has an IQ of +50, they may have a limited "knowledge" base, primed at basic living instinct, and a little more, meaning they don't understand much of their reality, and have little free will to act or choice.

Now, let's say someone has an IQ of +155, and has a decent depth of knowledge; now, yes, they have "more" free will to act, because "they" have "opportunity of "options"... options, require knowledge and conscious awareness of options.

What is the limit of what we can "discover" and "know", I'm still learning, and each time I do something new, it makes me excited to there are still things to find out about Nature and myself - to seek the limits of knowledge and life experience.

Anyway, I don't want to get into an in-depth discussion on determinism as it integrates into epistemology.. the bottom line, is that "no", we don't all have the same opportunities or options in life to choose from, so suggesting we can either "love" or "deny" your idea of God is really being stated with the assumption that every person on this planet is "equal" in opportunity, and biological function - and that, is absurd.

:o) However, it is common from a non-analytical stance, to perceive "everything" and "everyone" as we are, it's called projection, and many times, everyone isn't just like us - they don't have the same options in life, and thus, not the same free will to make choices.

Want a bible story; the whole point of Genesis' tree of knowledge in the Garden, was that one bite would make them as "gods", meaning, with "knowledge" and "choice", it took Eve to bite that apple, to open the door for "free will", and what did she do with her new gained knowledge (metaphorically)... she "decided" or "chose" to seduce Adam with her new found "carnal" knowledge. Him, being innocent, bit the apple and was tainted with knowledge.

Knowledge/episteme, is... the basis for all free will (and everything on this level of communication), or ability to "choose" anything, to include your example of choosing to love the ideal of God you have.

As usual, the bible is conflicted on this point; I don't see anywhere in the bible that says everyone has free-will to do squat, but I see a lot of derogatory remarks about "knowledge". Original sin is "not" in the bible, but, because we have "knowledge" thanks to Eve, we are considered "tainted" and of less value than those who came before us that were innocent and pure - minded.

It's a paradox; you need knowledge to have options to choose from in order to "enable" the concept of "free-will", but... "knowledge" is seen as "anathema" and the origin of mankind's downfall... requiring a blood sacrifice (Jesus) to overcome Eve's transgression(s).

Ecclesiastes 11:18 - "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

More knowledge, more range of free will opportunity, but... "more sorrow".

Matthew 18:3 - "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Convert, and gain knowledge only of Jesus/God, leaving behind worldly knowledge... again, no longer "free will" enabled through "choice" and "opportunity", if one "only" has knowledge of God, and is as innocent (no carnal knowledge) as little children in worldly ways.

The bible talks about gaining "knowledge", but in the context of God alone; doesn't sound like a recipe of opening the gates for many "options" to choose from. As a matter of fact, leaving "all" worldly knowledge behind - and... we have no science.

Want to discuss what your medical life would be like without the professional knowledge of medicine, etc...

Gweny: "The whole point in someone loving you is in thier choice and desire...that's what makes it so great..."

Yet, that is exactly what the bible teaches against, or are you going to actually pull your bible out and teach me a lesson... that would be interesting. The whole point of free will, as much that can be had under the biological restraints we are dealt with, is to gather as much knowledge as possible in order to make the "best" decisions in our lives... and one of those "could" be to love your ideal of God, but... that requires "total" freedom, in order to not be "fake".

If all you can see in front of your face is the number 1, and you forced yourself to believe that was all that existed, and I asked you which number you loved most in all the Universe - ya' think you might return back with "1"? See how that works?

Gweny: "God doesn't come down and ask you point blank, of course, but you still have the choice every day...obviously you don't believe there is a God...and thus you have made your choice."

Actually, in order to have a choice, I have to have "knowledge"... and what you have given me in your "idea" of what a God could be. Thus, what I could "love" would be your "idea", or, not. I don't choose to worship another persons' ideas, albeit, you may have a really good idea/l.

To be honest, I wouldn't want anyone worshipping me, therefore, it is "really" hard for me to understand what a cosmological power would gain from worship... do you think your God ideal is that insecure or needs love or a good hug?

Gweny: "I am not one to say you need to believe in God or go to hell, since I know that is manipulation, and I know God doesn't manipulate..."

That is "your" idea/l of God, but it is all in your mind, just as it is in the mind of everyone else on this planet that is a Christian... and your mind and knowledge, not only limits your freedom of choice, it limits the clarity and complexity by which you can conceptualize an idea/l such as a God. A mentally handicapped person, will not have the same concept of a God idea/l as you, it really is that simple.

The only way out of such a subjective environment, is to provide "objective" evidence, by which we can all absorb as equals. But, I have yet to receive any evidence of God, beyond your communicated "idea".

Gweny: "And I have been telling you who this God is all along...I have been describing Him with every post I have made..."

Is he tall or short, golden or peach, hard or soft, energy or material, what with my senses can I use to detect this idea of God you have?

J. C. Samuelson said...

Gweny,

If not random...who chose the order? Saying that evolution isn't random seems to me is the same as saying that someone guided it.

It's a common misconception to think that in order for something to be non-random, it must therefore have a purpose or be directed, but this isn't necessarily so.

One intuitive way of grasping it is to think of natural selection as a sieve, collander, or strainer. You pour in your material (say, spaghetti, for example), and whatever passes through is discarded while the more robust pieces remain. The sieve doesn't decide what is discarded or what is retained, doesn't communicate with the material to "guide" it, and it doesn't care what passes through and what remains. It just does what it does. It is therefore purposeless but non-random. Natural selection is similar in that it keeps genes whose mutations are robust and survive, while discarding those that are weak or useless. It's not perfect, mind you, but it works.

Of course, this isn't a perfect analogy, because a sieve, collander, or strainer is the result of design - human design. But that's really a separate debate (who or what set natural selection in motion), which most likely belongs in a discussion of abiogenesis (the origins of life). The analogy is enough for the purposes of helping to conceptualize how natural selection can be non-random and undirected.

rickyusvi said...

gweny wrote: “UMMM...This is your belief..., your experience...that doesn't make it true...You can't 'prove' your point of view anymore that I can in a scientific sense...That doesn't make Him any less real to me.”

My point of view is that everything is natural and proceeds according to natural laws. If you can show me a violation of a natural law, i’ll reconsider. Meanwhile, look up “Russell’s teapot” to see why i’m justified in saying that God is imaginary.

gweny wrote: “Actually, in reality there are many evidences that God exists...I don't know how some people can believe in evolution...I know that isn't really a topic I want to get in a big argument over...this one is enough....but it takes just as much faith that the life and beauty organization in this world just 'happened', actually more, I think, than it takes to believe in God.”

First of all, “I don’t know how it could have happened” does not constitute evidence for God. In fact, it is a very bad argument for God, because every time a scientific discovery is made, this God of the gaps shrinks.

Second, the evidence for evolution is nothing short of overwhelming. If you disagree, then i suggest you stop learning about evolution from preachers and creation “science” outfits that know nothing about it, even if they pretend that they do. Educate yourself about how evolution works—from biologists, not preachers!—and you’ll find that the pieces fit together so relentlessly that evolution becomes almost self-evident.

I’ve been told of all kinds of evidence for God, and frankly, none of it holds up. One of the catalysts for my deconversion was seeing all these mysteries—faith healings, stigmata, apparitions, near death experiences, feelings of transcendence—shot down one by one by science. The evidence is pathetic.

gweny wrote: “And what is so bad about giving someone hope in this life....Maybe that is why so many people are on anti-depressants anymore...because you take away hope...”

Nothing’s wrong with giving people hope for realistic things in this life. (If you can demonstrate the existence of some other life, i’d be thrilled.) But what is the point of hope for things that aren’t going to happen?

gweny wrote: “If not random...who chose the order? Saying that evolution isn't random seems to me is the same as saying that someone guided it.”

This is called black and white thinking, or a false dilemma, and is a common fallacy among Christians for some reason. “Random” and “divine intelligence” aren’t the only two possibilities. Environmental pressure is a third possibility, and this is the heart of natural selection. Please educate yourself before you limit your ideas.

Dave8 said...

Gweny: "You can't "prove" your point of view anymore that I can in a scientific sense...That doesn't make Him any less real to me."

Wow, look at this conversation grow.

Not being sarcastic here, but, yes, I can "prove" my point of view scientifically. I can prove everything I believe using science.

Led me be candid... An atheist doesn't owe a “response” to a failing theistic approach to "epistemology".

I don't "owe" a theist an explanation for "their" propositions.

If that is the line of thinking; then why don't you "prove" to me, that my God does not Exist, let's call her Ruby...

When I or you, make a statement to someone else, we are "obligated" to conform to their sense of investigation and threshold of evidence. We, adorn that burden of proof upon opening our communication channels.

We would have to be arrogant bigots/jerks to suggest that those we communicate with; must, reprogram the way they think, and accept our standards of investigation before we start communicating our beliefs, right?

If I "asked" you to teach me about your propositional beliefs, then, you are still required to conform to "my" level of investigation before I accept your propositions as part of my belief system.

There is a pattern forming here; you can only teach those, who hold a common rigor regarding investigation. If you have no evidence, at all, except your "idea" of what a God is, then, you must default (to conform to the non-jerk rule) to someone who is willing to accept your statements "blindly" based on "faith" in "you" alone.

If everyone was as innocent and accepting as a child, your work would be much easier :o)

There is some justice for you though; "I" am restricted from teaching a child abstract analytics, because that requires deep thinking that they have yet to develop.

Now, what is interesting is that you are an adult, with the potential for deep thinking, but without the apparent desire. We both seem to have our communication limitations; but, I can assure you, I will not knock on your door and ask if I can have a minute of your time, to entice you to accept my standards of investigation. Can you be as polite and honest?

gweny said...

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...

"Gweny, a single verse is available to be used by anyone who reads it, in any way they want to use it. The problem isn't that the bible can be used to manipulate others; the problem is that the bible has no control factors, to "ensure" it is interpreted in the "positive" terms you are suggesting; therefore, it holds the potential for perpetual manipulation."

You are right, the Bible can be interpreted to fit anyone's agenda...That is the risk God took, because ensuring that it would be interpreted correctly would be another form of manipulation and control....again, this is what God intentionally set out NOT to do.

Because we are all so different, with different life experiences and the different way we percieve things....no two people will get the same exact concept from any book they read...again, we are not meant to follow a pattern, or principles, but be involved in a relationship....relationships are messy.

As for all those verses...I will have to take the time to read the whole context later...as I have only a few minutes right now.....but remember what I said before....a lot of this is from the perspective of humans...

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...

In Genesis, God created the earth, "after" the heavens, unless you actually believe that Hell is here on earth somewhere, then, Hell was created before earth, and before humankind was placed here - per the bible.

...honestly I don't know where Hell is, especially since I am not sure Hell exists in the form that we have been taught by organized religion...something in intend to investigate.....the only references that I recall as to an 'address' per se, is below the ground...and that might just be referring to the grave...

so, your idea of when Hell was created is purely a matter of interpretation...yours

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...

Can you point that out in the bible somewhere, or is that Gweny's view on deitical interpretation?

I'll work on that and get back to you....one story that comes to mind right away is the story told by Jesus...The Prodigal Son....or more aptly put...The Loving Father...

The picture is of two sons and a father...Jesus says this is a picture of The Father....

One son approaches his father, while he is still alive and asks for his inheritance...and his father gives it to him(what father that you know would do that)knowing what the kid most likely would do with it...the father wanted a real relationship with his sons...not a forced one...see?

The son goes off and blows all the money on partying, and ends up eating pig slop....the whole time, most likely years, his father watches out the window daily in anticipation that his son might return....

Finally, the son gets to the 'bottom of the barrel' and realizes that even the servants eat better in his father's house, so he decides to go ask for a job from his father...still not realizing his father's love for him.

While he is still far off from his father's house...His father spots him, because he has been waiting...

Does the father make him grovel? Or say 'I told you so', or does he yell at him and tell him how stupid he was at wasting all that money???

None of that....He runs to meet his son...pulls the son off the ground in the middle of his begging for forgiveness, and wraps his arms around him...the father puts his own best clothes on the boy and treats him like an honored guest, butchering his best calf for a feast to celebrate...He loves his son, and his son has come home!!!

There was one other son...and that son grumbles because he is jealous that his brother is getting so much attention after being so 'bad'...(this sounds like 'Christians' I know :o))...what he doesn't realize that the same love was his...but he was only staying out of obligation, and 'doing what is right' (sound familiar)...what he didn't realize was that his father considered that everything he owned belonged to the son as well.

Both sons were extremely loved, neither really recognized it for what it was.....

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...

So, there's vanity/sin in heaven?

Yes, because there was choice.

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...

Skirting around the abstract concept of probability/chance, let's focus on opportunity. First, there nature, our biological vessel that allows us to have freedom of physical movement, not all people are physically the same, thus, they really don't have as many options as other people.


You think too much! :o)

How big of an IQ does one need to participate in a relatioship?


Matthew 18:3 - "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Little kids are simple, the they run on what they desire most...to be loved, and to love their parents...simple...we complicate things...for example your post, and your phylisophical musings on free will...over complication...great example by the way :o)

You really don't need a high IQ to get to know God, anymore than you need a high IQ to get to know you (couldn't resist that, sorry)

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...


What is the limit of what we can "discover" and "know", I'm still learning, and each time I do something new, it makes me excited to there are still things to find out about Nature and myself - to seek the limits of knowledge and life experience.

Just think of the exitement and discovery in getting to know the person that created nature and yourself...all a reflection of HIM...

Unfortunately I am out of time at the moment... I have to say, though, this whole discussion has been very stimulating! Thanks for that...

boomSLANG said...

Gweny is back, and after addressing only what she 'thinks' she has an answer for, and totally glossing over what she evidently cannot answer, she closes with:

"Just think of the exitement and discovery in getting to know the person that created nature and yourself...all a reflection of HIM..."

For future reference, click here to educate yourself on the existential fallacy. Please, and thank you.

gweny said...

Aren't you quick to judge :o)

boomSLANG said...

"Aren't you quick to judge :o)"

'Just calling it like I see it. = )

Jim Arvo said...

Boom, good call on the existential fallacy! That's got to be one of the most prevalent fallacies committed by visiting Christians. Having a convenient label will save a lot of time in the future. (And I thought I knew all the informal fallacies!)

Jim Arvo said...

gweny, quick or not, BoomSLANG's observation deserves a direct response. If you disagree that you have committed a logical fallacy, then perhaps you would like to either clarify your previous comment, or explain why it is not fallacious. As it stands, I think BoomSLANG is spot on.

gweny said...

Okay, I will take the bait....but it will have to wait a little bit....got tons to get done...I'll be back...

Boomslang said..
'Just calling it like I see it. = )

One thing I'll say, perceptions aren't always reality

Jim Arvo said...

G: blah blah blah

B: You've committed a logical fallacy.

J: I agree with B, it's a fallacy.

G: Okay, I will take the bait....

J: Bait? What bait?

rickyusvi said...

You’re a heathen. You must be baiting Gweny because heathens are always up to no good.

(Excellent call, boomSLANG.)

boomSLANG said...

J. Arvo: Boom, good call on the existential fallacy! That's got to be one of the most prevalent fallacies committed by visiting Christians.

Isn't that something?!?! They just start right in, chattering away, ever so matter-of-factly, as if doing so validates one single thing they are typing.

"Yes, Jim!...it's good to know that Quetzacoatl's there for us in a time of need, to shield us from evil with His feathery plumage! Bird Bless America!!!"

= /

Dave8 said...

BoomSLANG, awesome bro! Great insight on the formal fallacy...

Gweny, it appears that you have engaged on a level of rigor that is acceptable to measure certainty of knowledge - may I congratulate you on using a level of investigative rigor acceptable by many.

I hope you understand that no one has to "prove" or "disprove" your "experiences" - that would be, absurd.

What I am witnessing here seems to indicate your attempt to communicate your "experiences" via logic, to correctly represent your ideas and understanding, which you further use to support your theist position/first principles.

Or, you could just be stalling until "I'll Be Your Huckleberry" returns :-)

Well, in any event, let's see how well you are able to present your experiences logically, so that they can be clearly understood without conflict.

I'd like to also, see a response "directly" in regard to BoomSLANG's most excellent query regarding your statements.

While you are seeking to understand logical function; informal, formal, categorical, syllogistic, etc., let me offer a link to get you started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

You may want to make sure you understand; begging the question, so that it isn't part of your response.

Begging the Question (petitio principii): "In logic, begging the question describes a type of logical fallacy, petitio principii, in which the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

In short, the argument for a first principle/statement of truth makes a presupposition that is expected to be accepted "prima facie", as implicitly or explicitly true.

I believe it's fair to say, that many accept logic, as a means to clarify one's position. What I find intriguing, is the notion that some people actually understand their inability to communicate their experiences effectively, yet they still believe and accept their beliefs, in direct and open contrast to their "logical" conflicts.

Gweny, perception may not be reality, true, but that is what science is for; determining what is objectively real based on reliability testing and our material world. As well, logic statements should be capable of supporting, without conflict, what we know as fact.

Anyway, it appears you owe BoomSLANG an honest answer, I'll sit in the bleecher seats, and await your response :o)

I'll Be Your Huckleberry said...

Gweny, I'll wait for your response to BoomSLANG as well.

stronger now said...

(pops some corn...grabs a drink...takes his seat in the bleechers)

Oh! I can't wait to hear this!

gweny said...

I am flattered that I have an audience...:oP

I hope you popped a lot of popcorn, because the soonest I will have the time to sit here and punch out an extended reply will be this afternoon...

Meanwhile you might want to order some pizza :o)

boomSLANG said...

Gweny: I am flattered that I have an audience...:oP

...I just hope that you don't suffer from performance anxiety this time.

= )

sconnor said...

This is for gweny. You said,

Right now I am sure that it is impossible to believe that something good could come of your son's death...and I am sure this sounds really absurd....

It sounds more than absurd; it sounds moronic and asinine. I wouldn't even care if the death of my son was the key to healing all cancers. There is nothing, in this world, that can justify his death and you are an ignorant fool to suggest that there could be such a justification. All I want is my son to hold! Take your xtian mumbo jumbo and put a ball gag in it!

gweny said...

Finally, here is the long awaited explanation...I hope I don't dissapoint you... :o)

boomSLANG said...

...I just hope that you don't suffer from performance anxiety this time.

...This time???....

Actually, with so many sitting there with your popcorn, staring at me...I do have a bit of the jitters.

Okay...backing up to this:

I said,
"Just think of the exitement and discovery in getting to know the person that created nature and yourself...all a reflection of HIM..."

Boomslang said...
"For future reference, click here to educate yourself on the existential fallacy. Please, and thank you."

While I understand your point...my statement assumes that God exists....

In all honesty, I didn't write this statement to argue a point, or to prove anything. It is just something that I feel to be true....There is a God that created nature and people as a reflection of who He is...and He wants us to dive in and discover every aspect. I know this makes no sense to you all, but to me, this is a fact.I realize that most here are convinced that God doesn't exist, and so maybe it was foolish to make the statement that I did.

The thing is, I feel you are all pushing me to prove that God exists, knowing I can't (or maybe I just won't?? :o))

The fact is, that it wouldn't matter what I told you...if I even claimed to have proof, how would you know it was real?? Maybe if I had a picture of God and posted it here? LOL aaawww, just photoshopped...if I claimed to have had some great miracle performed...it could be my imagination, or I could be making it up.....If I point to the Bible...obviously you think that is false. If Noah's ark was found, would you believe then? What actual proof would you accept??? I am not sure there is any...

I thought about spilling my guts, and describing my experiences with God...

Has anyone shared something between another person that was really special, and to tell someone else about it would only cheapen it, because no one else could really understand the depth of the relationship that exists....that is where I am...

Most likely most here would mock my experiences, and so to share them here would be pointless.

There is obviously no logical formula that you can follow to discover God...He will meet anyone who desires to really get to know Him in a personal way...

You believe there is no God, because through your intellectualisms and your beliefs in science you have explained him away...

But you have to have questions...."where does this intellect come from that you rely so much on?" Where do we get our ability to Phylosophize" Where do our desires come from?" Any theories? Can science explain these?

And as far as proof...Jesus was challenged to prove himself over and over and He walked away...He knew they didn't want to believe, and proof wouldn't change that. And notice He didn't try and force it on them.

Dave8 said...

"Gweny, perception may not be reality, true, but that is what science is for; determining what is objectively real based on reliability testing and our material world. As well, logic statements should be capable of supporting, without conflict, what we know as fact."

It seems that at least the majority here put their 'faith' in science....and I realize that you won't see it as faith...but if you believe that evolution is true, there are some things you have to take by 'faith'....especially macroevolution...because no one has been around long enough to have seen it happen......so you have to have faith in your theories, based on interpretation and perceptions(I know I am pulling evolution out of the hat again...I seem to do this when I am tired).

And I really don't know why I even bring up this point...because my relationship with God isn't based on 'blind faith' as someone put it...I have never been a person to just accept what I am told for one...you can ask my mother (if you knew her of course).

Also, I have heard several mention "sky God" or something similar...I don't see Him as up there watching...He is 'God with us'...involved in my day to day life.

Dave8 said...
I believe it's fair to say, that many accept logic, as a means to clarify one's position. What I find intriguing, is the notion that some people actually understand their inability to communicate their experiences effectively, yet they still believe and accept their beliefs, in direct and open contrast to their "logical" conflicts.

....Because you can't find God through logic...You cannot put God in a Box...you cannot describe Him completely....this isn't about having an the best argument, so that no one here can refute that God exists...This is about a relationship that goes beyond logic, and human understanding.
(I know, my arguments still 'assume' that God actually exists)

I actually find the statement above by Dave8 a bit on the arrogant side...you must be so brilliant that you can scientifically and intellectually prove everything you believe...and you are so much better than others who aren't as brilliant as you because they can't prove to you why they believe what they believe...that they should, like you, believe that there is no God because you can intellectually come to that conclusion...lets all follow Dave8 in his new religion of ex-christianity because he has been enlightened more than us humble folk.

You all point to the tragedy and evil that happens in the world and say "There is no God"...while others can point to the good, and beauty and say that "There is a God". Who gets to judge which is right...obviously it is each of us, personally for ourselves.

gweny said...

sconnor said...
It sounds more than absurd; it sounds moronic and asinine. I wouldn't even care if the death of my son was the key to healing all cancers. There is nothing, in this world, that can justify his death and you are an ignorant fool to suggest that there could be such a justification. All I want is my son to hold! Take your xtian mumbo jumbo and put a ball gag in it!

You misunderstood me...I don't believe that anything justifies Conner's death...it's beyond horrible.....and curing cancer in my mind wouldn't make it any better...what I meant was that God can take the tragedy and devestation that Conners death was meant to cause you, and bring something good in you...for you...


I am really sorry, though...I felt I had to clarify myself..

stronger now said...

Gweny:"...He will meet anyone who desires to really get to know Him in a personal way..."

That wasn't the case for me and many others here. That's why I am an ex-christian.

It's the fact that god didn't "meet" me that I realized the foolishness of believing in something for which there is no credible evidence for.(even though I felt like I needed to)

If I had to live my life feeling my way to the truth I could end up believeing ANYTHING. As you seem to have done.

rickyusvi said...

gweny wrote: “While I understand your point...my statement assumes that God exists....

“In all honesty, I didn't write this statement to argue a point, or to prove anything. It is just something that I feel to be true....There is a God that created nature and people as a reflection of who He is...and He wants us to dive in and discover every aspect. I know this makes no sense to you all, but to me, this is a fact.”


How do you know?

gweny wrote: “I realize that most here are convinced that God doesn't exist, and so maybe it was foolish to make the statement that I did.

“The thing is, I feel you are all pushing me to prove that God exists, knowing I can't (or maybe I just won't?? :o))”


If you can’t establish God’s existence, what’s the point of talking about him? We might as well discuss the ethics of the purple zeeblefrafts on the nazzling bludersanks.

*munch*

gweny wrote: “The fact is, that it wouldn't matter what I told you...if I even claimed to have proof, how would you know it was real?? Maybe if I had a picture of God and posted it here? LOL aaawww, just photoshopped...if I claimed to have had some great miracle performed...it could be my imagination, or I could be making it up.....If I point to the Bible...obviously you think that is false. If Noah's ark was found, would you believe then? What actual proof would you accept??? I am not sure there is any...”

How would you know that the proof is real? If you cannot describe an experiment that says “if such-and-such, then God exists; if so-and-so, then God is disproved,” then how can you expect any skeptic to believe you??

You have anticipated nicely one reason that i don’t take claims of miracles seriously. It is for this same reason that i don’t believe the miracles in the Bible. It sounds like you know what kind of task you have ahead of you. (Another reason for rejecting miracles was give by David Hume in An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding.)

Finding Noah’s Ark would only be a first step—and the easiest one, at that. You’d still have to explain the story itself, which violates every law of nature that i can think of.

gweny wrote: “I thought about spilling my guts, and describing my experiences with God...

“Has anyone shared something between another person that was really special, and to tell someone else about it would only cheapen it, because no one else could really understand the depth of the relationship that exists....that is where I am...”


A revelation is a revelation only to the person who receives it. To everyone else it is hearsay. You can tell us what is revealed to you, but to us, it won’t be a revelation.

gweny wrote: “Most likely most here would mock my experiences, and so to share them here would be pointless.”

I do not mock people’s experiences. That would be arrogant and presumptuous. However, i may mock people’s interpretations of their experiences if the interpretations are silly enough.

gweny wrote: “There is obviously no logical formula that you can follow to discover God...He will meet anyone who desires to really get to know Him in a personal way...”

No, he didn’t.

gweny wrote: “You believe there is no God, because through your intellectualisms and your beliefs in science you have explained him away...”

Yes, that’s part of it. Is there anything wrong with that?

We’re told that God’s wisdom is higher than ours, but since God’s wisdom often appears to contradict ours, how are we supposed to know whether or not God is wise? Because a preacher told us? Because we read it in a 2500 year old book? How do they know? My mental faculties are all i have to negotiate reality. So far, the message that i’m getting is that the God that says that my reality isn’t real isn’t real.

(good popcorn)

gweny wrote: “But you have to have questions....'where does this intellect come from that you rely so much on?' Where do we get our ability to Phylosophize' Where do our desires come from?' Any theories? Can science explain these?”

Yes, science can explain them, and if you knew anything about evolution, you’d know that.

gweny wrote: “And as far as proof...Jesus was challenged to prove himself over and over and He walked away...He knew they didn't want to believe, and proof wouldn't change that. And notice He didn't try and force it on them.”

Jesus wasn’t thinking straight. He says something unbelievable, and then gets upset when people don’t believe it. Can you blame them? For me, whether i want or don’t want to believe something is completely irrelevant. If there’s evidence, i believe it; if there’s no evidence, i don’t. So far, there’s no evidence, and that’s the very reason that i don’t believe. Blowing us off by saying that we wouldn’t be satisfied by the very thing that would convince us—sounds like sour grapes from someone who can’t prove his point.

gweny wrote: “It seems that at least the majority here put their 'faith' in science....and I realize that you won't see it as faith...but if you believe that evolution is true, there are some things you have to take by 'faith'....especially macroevolution...because no one has been around long enough to have seen it happen......so you have to have faith in your theories, based on interpretation and perceptions(I know I am pulling evolution out of the hat again...I seem to do this when I am tired).”

I implore you to stop listening to the creationists if you wish to lecture us about how we think. You may not realize it, but you look like an ass when you do that. And please do not pull evolution out of your hat again until you can demonstrate that you’ve learned something about it. Right now, you look like a flat-Earther lecturing rocket scientists. Yes, you do!

gweny wrote: “...
(I know, my arguments still 'assume' that God actually exists)”


Yes, and that is still a problem when you discuss with people who don’t share that premise.

gweny wrote: “You all point to the tragedy and evil that happens in the world and say 'There is no God'...while others can point to the good, and beauty and say that 'There is a God'. Who gets to judge which is right...obviously it is each of us, personally for ourselves.”

I point to the tragedy and evil that happens in the world and say, “There is no all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful god.” That still leaves room for an evil, ignorant, or impotent god, but few people make that claim, for some reason.

I point to the good and the beauty and say, “Isn’t that good! Isn’t that beautiful!” I fail to see the logical connection between that and “There is a god!” You might flesh that out a little.

Jim Arvo said...

gweny said "There is a God that created nature and people as a reflection of who He is...and He wants..."

WHO wants?

I thought boomSLANG spared us the necessity of this, but apparently not.

Gweny, did you know that leprechauns wear green trousers? They love to play practical jokes, and they prefer chocolate cake to lemon. Their favorite card game is Old Maid. They have high-pitched voices and giggle for the slightest reason. Shall I go on, or did you tune out everything I said after the word "leprechaun"? I hope it's the latter. Do you see how easy it is to go on and on about imaginary entities? Such prattle gets us no closer to establishing their existence, does it?

gweny: "The thing is, I feel you are all pushing me to prove that God exists, knowing I can't (or maybe I just won't?? :o))"

No. For the record, I would simply like to see you (and all visiting Christians):

1) ...stop implicitly ASSUMING that said being exists. Every time you tell us what "He" wants/thinks/wishes, you commit the existential fallacy (thanks Boom). It's every bit the waste of keystrokes as my comments on leprechauns.

2) ...recognize that without any supporting EVIDENCE for such a being, we have ZERO obligation to believe your claims.

That's it.

gweny said "What actual proof would you accept??? I am not sure there is any..."

First, I ask for *credible evidence*, not "proof". Any empirical matter, particularly something as profound as the existence of invisible conscious beings, would require an accumulation of evidence. Evidence that stands up to scrutiny. Maybe that's a really tall order for you, but that's what one needs to do to be believed. One would assume that having an all-powerful being on your side would somewhat lessen your burden. But in any case, it's your burden, not ours.

gweny: "Most likely most here would mock my experiences..."

I wouldn't mock them, but if there was no way to corroborate them, chances are slim that I would believe them.

gweny: "He will meet anyone who desires to really get to know Him in a personal way..."

Existential fallacy.

gweny: "...Any theories? Can science explain these?"

Well, yes it can, but that's largely irrelevant. There are plenty of things that are currently unknown. What do you conclude from that? That god must exist? Surely you see that such a conclusion is simply an argument from ignorance--another fallacy.

sconnor said...

gweny said,
You misunderstood me...I don't believe that anything justifies Conner's death...it's beyond horrible.....and curing cancer in my mind wouldn't make it any better...what I meant was that God can take the tragedy and devestation that Conners death was meant to cause you, and bring something good in you...for you...

What the hell are you talking about? Connor's death was meant to cause me to suffer? What about his mom, sister, gradmas and grandpas, and friends? Who meant to hurt them with the death of my son? And what good, could come from my son's death, THAT COULD POSSIBLY BRING SOMETHING GOOD TO ME, OR IN ME, OR FOR ME? TELL ME, WHAT!!?

Dave8 said...

Gweny, first let me say, I agree with the excellent observations of those who have taken their time to respond to your post regarding the existential fallacy.

Gweny: "It seems that at least the majority here put their 'faith' in science....and I realize that you won't see it as faith..."

Gweny, I find that communication is hard, even when two intelligent people are trying to communicate highly abstract ideas... thus; I make the attempt to clarify what I say, so that others can understand my ideas. As, my ideas are subjective facts, mine alone.

However, if I claimed that all that I know, comes from our Natural Reality, then "all" of my ideas have to be the result of naturally perceived elements, that I have cognitively processed to render "possibilities", some ideas are more viable than others.

The important thing here Gweny, is that we are "creating" in our minds, our "view" of what Reality/Nature "is", running a thought process through algorithm like filters; we perceive something and query, is it this? How about that? Could it be? The more we develop neurally, the more complex the schema, and the more overwhelmed we become with natural data.

Much of life can be spent trying to unravel all the information we have been given, in order to "understand" what we cognitively hold; as either true, false, indifferent, etc.

I don't know if you understand the different connotations that exist with the word "faith", but to clarify from my point of view;

Faith: "1. confidence or trust in a person or thing..."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

I trust "my" ability to "know" Reality. I "trust" things (processes, methods, etc.) to allow me to interpret Reality with consistent reliability.

Christianity suggests that our perceptions/senses can be tricked by some evil doer, and thus, we must "trust" in something "else", besides our "senses" or "perceptions" of the material reality. Thus, Christianity suggests that "ideas" or "consciousness" is to be the only source that can be trusted with certainty - period.

So, I don't disagree with you on "faith", as long as it is being used in the form of "trust", however, "trusting" myself, is not the same as "trusting" a religious group's dogma, while I'm being told to disregard what my "senses/perception" is telling me about said dogma and material claims.

Solipsism: "The belief that all reality is just one's own imagining of reality, and that one's self is the only thing that exists."

When a person disengages with the material Reality in which they exist, and are "dependent" on, in order to "support" their claim that their "thought" of a God is "just as real" or "more real", than Nature/Material Existence, etc., they begin slipping into solipsism.

This was longer than I cared to make it, but, just don't know your level of education, so... let's just say, I have trust in "both" my subjective reality and the material reality, and when my subjective reality aligns with my "material" understanding of Nature, then I am aligned without conflict between me and my surroundings.

Christianity, in particular, suggests that there can't be a "matching" between one's subjective reality and the externally perceived material reality - because, the external reality, and one's own "perceptions" can't really be trusted - reliable and valid alignment is not possible.

The result, is to live within one's own mind - therefore, God, as an "ideal" or "thing", "must" reside in the consciousness/mind - if one is certain of their ideal of God.

Now, I have a lot of issues with this train of thought, but... let's bypass this for a moment. If you actually believe, that God is real in your mind, and you can't trust "perceptions" or "senses", etc., then... how is it that you "came" to the word - God? From the "external" reality, parents, family, books, etc?

How is it that its possible to trust those external material sources, "only", while rejecting "all" other material sources - that's absurd, it's being selective to make one's case for some subjectively held truth (belief/opinion).

So, let's be fair about this; yes, I trust science, because it "forces" me, to connect my subjective reality, to my Objective Reality, so that I can make "reliable" decisions/predictions in my life, that are healthy and beneficial to myself and society.

However, you are misguided, if you actually believe that "I", "blindly accept" scientific statements from others... without question. I can validate scientific facts myself through testing, because they are based on our material reality.

What is "blindly accepted" by the Christian, are the "words" they are given by others, who have nothing to give for testing. What has the person who gave you the word God given you to "understand" and "trust" that God means more than a mere word? If you say an external material object; bible, other person/pastor/family, Reality, etc., you could be deceived by Satan/Evil doer.

The Christian blind acceptance, is the "faith" they put in the person that gave them the concept God, without "any" way to validate such a claim - and - in direct opposition, to the most fundamental concept of Christianity - perception isn't reality. "You" made that case Gweny.

Gweny: "...but if you believe that evolution is true, there are some things you have to take by 'faith'....especially macroevolution..."

Gweny, here is what I call "evolution"... "Change". Here is what I consider to be the basic tenet of biological evolution... Change "and" Adaptation. That is a premise I can work from, is that too far fetched? Can you name "one" thing that hasn't "changed" in your life?

Instead of the proven changes and adaptations; humans have different levels of blood volume, skin pigment, hair texture, bone structure, etc., we are given the "alternative" explanation, that doesn't require "change" or "adaptation"?

Here it is - We were made from dirt/mud and divine wind/breath, and haven't changed in either biological structure or spiritual nature, since the Garden of Eden.

Before, I would accept any theory with great confidence (not blindly), I would go review the "facts" that support the theory, and see if the "facts" support the case presented. Let me just say, I am not holding out, on the dirt to wind experiment for human life origins.

Gweny: "And I really don't know why I even bring up this point...because my relationship with God isn't based on 'blind faith' as someone put it...I have never been a person to just accept what I am told for one...you can ask my mother (if you knew her of course)."

Gweny, if someone gave you the word God, because it is what they believed, and you accepted it, and weren't able to test it, and you accepted it - then it was done "blindly" and without "evidence". You accepted the word "God" from some person; that's blind "trust".

Gweny: "Also, I have heard several mention "sky God" or something similar...I don't see Him as up there watching...He is 'God with us'...involved in my day to day life."

Yet, you can express the idea in words, and say the word is involved in your life as an idea, but you can't manifest that idea into objective reality. In short, your God is part of your personally created mental reality - not found in the Objective Reality.

Gweny: "....Because you can't find God through logic..."

Logic is required for us to think "consistently" and "reliably" about our ideas. If you can't offer a consistent and non-contradictory explanation for your God ideal, then, it can not be found in a non-contradictory Objective Reality - that simple.

I need logic to find the "exact" God you are suggesting exists, but, you are attempting to "persuade" me using logic, on why I should even go to the trouble of even looking. If you can't make a logical case, that is free of "conflict"; subjectively internal to "your" own ideas, and in relation to what "I" accept as "fact" in the "external" material reality - then, I don't need to go very far to draw conclusions.

"Could" you be right about this thing/idea you call God, existing, and you just can't figure out how to logically express your ideas in relation to our Objective Reality... sure... but then, I have to ask... if you can't make the connection, and "you" are the one with a hypothetical relationship, then "how" do you ever expect me to "find" what you suggest is out there? You can't give me any directions on "what" it is "I" would be looking for?

You can't "find", something, without having a description as to the "identity" of what you are looking for... the "word" God, is just a "word"... I found the word, it's on this post, I found the "idea", I held it as a Christian child and it was represented by my imagination... using the descriptions given to me by "others"... not descriptions I got from "first" hand experience with such a being.

Gweny: "You cannot put God in a Box..."

Yet, you can't get your God out of your mental box, and do a show & tell.

Gweny: "...you cannot describe Him completely...."

Then, I can't ever "validate" what you have told me. Not only are your statements about the events surrounding your "belief" unreliable (based on logical support), you have severed any possibility for me to "ever" validate anything you say.

In short Gweny, if I were to "accept" your offer that there was God; I would be doing so, with "blind acceptance", knowing I could "never" know if "anything" I find, actually meets the notion you gave me of God. Everything I find, even the bad "could be" your notion of the word God - the word god is totally "arbitrary" at this point - a dingo would be as likely a candidate for God as anything else I would "experience" in life.

Gweny: "...this isn't about having an the best argument, so that no one here can refute that God exists..."

Again, I don't "require" you to defend your belief/experience(s)... They are "your" beliefs, and subjective facts.

However, you made "claims", that others asked you to support. Remember, it is "you" who made the initial claims; no one else hunted you down in order to force you into a corner.

If you said; I can't logically articulate statements regarding God, nor offer a "specific" identity for the word God (beyond the word) that can ever be validated, then, you would have been honest, and forthcoming - actually, educated.

If you would have couched all that you said about a God, in terms of... "hope", for something good, that is beyond our current mortal existence, then... that would be okay with me too... but, that is not Gweny's claim... your claim suggests you "know" of a "particular" God, and "know", that you and all other Christians will be "selectively" rewarded for your "blind faith" (trust), if you adhere to specific principles and beliefs.

Hoping and knowing is not the same thing Gweny. To know, in one aspect, can mean in one aspect, to "lock on" to a particular truth connection between the mental reality and external reality... hoping... is to desire something based on one's desires.

Gweny: "This is about a relationship that goes beyond logic, and human understanding.
(I know, my arguments still 'assume' that God actually exists)."

Actually, there you said it... your concept of God, exceeds human understanding, and thus, is some thing you "hope" for...

So, it appears you are trying to pass your idea/l of "hope" to others... by way of message, like Paul of Tarsus.

A difference; I believe what I can "understand" (subjective & objective coherence), there are others, who "believe" in their "belief" (subjective reinforcement).

Regarding the reference back to a presupposed object of discussion... at least you understand you are begging the question, by promoting the existential fallacy. Some people will not even discuss matters, until there is proper clarification on the terms before starting.

Gweny: "I actually find the statement above by Dave8 a bit on the arrogant side...you must be so brilliant that you can scientifically and intellectually prove everything you believe..."

Well, notwithstanding, the ad hominem...

Ad Hominem: "2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad%20hominem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

And, to respond, everything I believe, I inherently "know", and everything I "know", must reside in this "Natural" Reality, which is susceptible to scientific analysis. So, yes, everything I believe, can be proven - not that I have taken the time to "prove" everything in my day-to-day life using science... much of our lives, are self-evidently true - unless, one entertains the notion that we are living in a dream state.

Gweny: "...and you are so much better than others who aren't as brilliant as you because they can't prove to you why they believe what they believe..."

Ad hominem, and, I don't ask "them" to prove anything; "you" came on this site, suggesting you could logically state your case for a God...

And, let's clear this up, "I" am not telling you, that Christianity can't "prove" their God concept; the "doctrine" of Christianity suggests that God is transcendent and "supernatural", meaning - beyond "natural" science and proving.

My intellect needn't go any further, than actually listening to a Christian's testimony on their supernatural God.

Gweny: "...that they should, like you, believe that there is no God because you can intellectually come to that conclusion..."

You believe in your belief; I believe in what I can understand.

If one isn't capable of intellectually concluding their beliefs; they should probably not attempt to persuade others using their ignorance as their evidence.

Gweny: "...lets all follow Dave8 in his new religion of ex-christianity because he has been enlightened more than us humble folk."

Religion takes doctrine, sorry, all out of that :o)

Religion requires an us-them scenario, sorry, too exclusive for me :o)

Religion requires a spiritual dictatorship, sorry, not a political platform I like :o)

Religion requires self-sacrifice, so that there is a reward after death, sorry, I don't martyr/"sacrifice" my "self" today, for the promise of a post-death reward :o)

Gweny, if not being religious is a religion, then, not flying airplanes is a profession :-p

Gweny: "You all point to the tragedy and evil that happens in the world and say "There is no God"..."

Here we go again, no, I would say, I see no God, nor have I met a God, nor has anyone been able to "explain" in logical terms, without "conflict" about a God. If there is a God, it's quite obvious, that people can't seem to "express" themselves very well about what they believe.

Gweny: "...while others can point to the good, and beauty and say that "There is a God". Who gets to judge which is right...obviously it is each of us, personally for ourselves."

Well... it ends with an emotional plea, where it's all relative - it's all good. Wonder, if relativism extends beyond ontology for Gweny, into morality/ethics?

boomSLANG said...

Gweny is committing attempted murder on our intellect with:

The thing is, I feel you are all pushing me to prove that God exists, knowing I can't (or maybe I just won't?? :o))

No, you had it right the first time...you can't prove it, and there's a perfectly good reason why you can't. It's simple: There is no personal deity outside of your mind. The end. Everything you claim to "know" about this personal deity you keep speaking of, is based on one, or all of the following:

- Secondhand hearsay

- Textual transference of information(revelation)

- Non-verifiable personal experiences based on intuition..i.e.."gut feelings"

- Wishful thinking

To be sure, let's examine something you said:

It[God's existence] is just something that I feel to be true....There is a God that created nature and people as a reflection of who He is...and He wants us to dive in and discover every aspect.[bold added]

So, you FEEL it to be true...e.g. you "feel" >>> "there is a God".

feel >>> "there IS"

feel >>> = >>> "IS".

No..... NO! Feelings..i.e..intuition, are not a valid means for determining objective truth.

Gweny: The fact is, that it wouldn't matter what I told you...

PRECISELY!!!!..so stop telling us *things*, in an attempt to substantiate your personal feelings/opinions as Universal fact. Thanks.

Gweny: ...even[if I] claimed to have proof, how would you know it was real??

That's actually a great question.

Okay, hypothetically, if this personal deity you speak of is strictly meta-physical..or more concisely put, beyond physical, then we can logically conclude, a priori, that no physcial evidence can exist---thus, you could never HAVE "proof", let alone us "believe" it.

On the other hand, if this deity is partially a physical "being" as revealed in your Holy book, then there can be, and should be, some physical/tangible evidence of said being. WhERE is it? Moreover, that this alleged being allegedly appeared, physically, to the alleged 500, and the Twelve, is an indication that said alleged being made it's existence known at least once, so it can do it again. Notice, also, two more points, 1) that many were doubters(like us), and 2) that this alleged appearance did not hurt the "faith" of ANYONE who had "faith". GET over it.

Gweny: Has anyone shared something between another person that was really special, and to tell someone else about it would only cheapen it, because no one else could really understand the depth of the relationship that exists....that is where I am...

The "relationship" you speak of is with yourself. YOU are the one who "cheapens" it, by suggesting that you have a "relationship" with a flying undead disembodied man-ghost. When little kids claim to have invisible friends, it's cute; when grown adults claim to have invisible friends, it's cause for concern.

Gweny blathers: There is obviously no logical formula that you can follow to discover God...He will meet anyone who desires to really get to know Him in a personal way...

USER ERROR: "He", wHO!?!?!?! Again, existential fallacy.

The only evidence I see is for a reading comprehension problem.

stronger now said...

(..and the crowd goes WILD!...SN starts a "wave"...spills his popcorn and drink...high fives all around!...)

Gweny,

Did you ask your god for help with this? If so he seems to have left you high and dry here.

gweny said...

Here we are going around the mulberry bush :o)

Just a few thoughts....

You all are forgetting one important point...I am not just listening to a pastor or creationists, or any other religious person...Jesus said we could get straight to The Father through Him....I have been burned as much or more than you all by religious people, and I don't consider myself one....And I don't really like being lumped with Christians...not that I am totally "going it alone", as I have quite a few peers who have discovered this stuff right along with me...and what we have learned through our relationhip with God (we call Him Father :o)) has validated each other...and we are spread apart and only get together occasionally, but we can see God working out things in our lives that are much the same. I guess you could call this evidence....I used to think I might be crazy, until I run into people that are experienceing the same...none of these people belong to any "church" or religious organization anymore...and many of us have come out of all different types of organizations, and are learning the same stuff..

And I see more evidence in creation every day...the miracle of life...the little things in different animals that help them survive and thrive...I am not a scientist probably by all your definitions, as I haven't gone to college for it, but I am a scientist in that I love to study the natural world and I read quite a bit about it...it all works in synchronicity...(accept where we have to mess with things).

I admit I haven't read a lot about the theories of evolution...it all doesn't make sense to me, I suppose...but I do know the difference between micro evolution and macro evolution....

I can see the micro...small changes that aid in adaptation...for instance, I raise animals as a hobby...I breed for certain characteristics, and I try to eliminate others...so change and adaptation is happening on a controlled level...but there is no new information created in the genes...I only have what is already there to work with.

It is macro evolution that claims that new information appears out of nowhere...no one I know has seen this happen, the addition of new information to create something new in a species that wasn't there before. And the theory that life was created in some primordial soup.. Isn't one basic tenet of science...'life has to come from life'?

And Dave8 asked if I believe in change...of course I do...I have described how God has changed me...taken crap in my life and turned it into something good.

And so I will leave you with a reply to this...

Stronger now said...
Did you ask your god for help with this? If so he seems to have left you high and dry here.

You have no idea...:o) on the contrary, He has used athiests like you and this whole conversation to solidify things He has been doing in me...

I really have enjoyed this conversation more than you will ever know..:o) It has been a bright spot in my life...and I really appreciate all of your willingness to engage with me.:o)

Again, I can't resist...God Bless :o)

gweny said...

Oops! I used the word 'created'..in a primordial soup......of course I meant to say 'appeared'....

stronger now said...

Gwen:"It is macro evolution that claims that new information appears out of nowhere...no one I know has seen this happen, the addition of new information to create something new in a species that wasn't there before."

Wrong again.

From Wikipedia:
"In 1975 a team of Japanese scientists discovered a strain of Flavobacterium living in ponds containing waste water from a factory producing nylon that was capable of digesting certain byproducts of nylon-6 manufacture, such as the linear dimer of 6-aminohexanoate, even though those substances are not known to have existed prior to the invention of nylon in 1935. Further study revealed that the three enzymes the bacteria were using to digest the byproducts were novel, significantly different from any other enzymes produced by other Flavobacterium strains (or any other bacteria for that matter), and not effective on any other material other than the man made nylon byproducts."

These bacteria evolved new genetic information allowing them to process a man made substance.

"... but we can see God working out things in our lives that are much the same. I guess you could call this evidence...."

No, YOU call it evidence, but it's still the same existential fallacy thing except in group form. I think there is a term for it. It may be called Argumentum ad populum. I believe you are trying to employ it here. Fallacy of the single cause may be more apt.(I thank the regulars on this site for introducing these terms to me and where I can find more)

We wouldn't have to keep goin' 'round and 'round if you'd stop and think.

Dave8 said...

Gweny: "And Dave8 asked if I believe in change...of course I do...I have described how God has changed me...taken crap in my life and turned it into something good."

Seriously, Gweny... the ideas we hold "do" prime us to see our reality as we want - positively, negatively, indifferently, apathetically, etc.

Since this "crap" in your life is associated to you (cognitively, etc.), do you find comfort suggesting that the idea of God, somehow "removes" the crap associated to you?

I am not going to get deeply involved here, but it sounds like you need to give yourself credit for accepting your humanity.

Gweny... ponder this. At the end of the day, we assign meaning to everything we experience, based on our expectations.

Typically, a person needs to focus on "one" thing, by which they understand all else by (once they are able to make the connections), if the "one" thing, for you (just speculating), is an "idea/l", then of course, as you accumulate memories, you will measure them against this idea/l, and build truth/value statements.

Sounds okay, right... until, you realize that the "idea/l" becomes harder and harder to remove/change over time, because if that "anchor" is pulled, then all memories have to be reconciled using a different "anchor" or measure. It takes a long time to recalibrate our memories, depending on mental fragmentation.

If the anchor you have chosen is the "idea" of God, then, you will hold onto that idea, and subjectively reinforce that idea, to keep it from "changing".

Notice something peculiar...
- Reality changes around you
- Humans naturally attempt to cognitively keep tabs on their changing environment, in order to maintain a mental & physical orientation
- As we experientially "grow", through this constant pinging we do with our external reality, we gain more knowledge, and our "ideas" will keep up with our experience(s)
- However, if ones experiential knowledge continually forces the older "idea/l" away, one will find a cognitive disturbance/dissonance
- In order to reconcile the dissonance, a person will; a) Deny/reject their experience(s) and will themselves to gloss-over, ignore, repress, all external reality in order to keep mental balance, because of their "beliefs", b) Allow their idea/l to become tempered through time proven reality, which will cause a disturbance that will require a reassessment of one's beliefs/knowledge.

So, at the end of the day Gweny, what I have witnessed, is a person who "believes" they "need" their "idea", because it is holding their mental card-house up. Your case, was to support your "decision" to keep this idea, because you can't see/understand any other alternative that won't cause a disturbance.

I agree, with what is likely going on subconsciously... no words are going to force you to "move"; a PhD on macroevolution is not going to do the trick either.

It would be the equivalent of; all those words and they are 100% accurate and correct, but... those words, no matter how accurate they are; are not enough for me to "drop" my "one" thing, and cause a great disturbance. No, I need something to replace my "one" thing, that will not cause disturbance.

So, as it turns out, you have an "idea", as we've discovered, based on the lack of ability to connect the "idea" to our externally shared reality - Aristotle's material test. Is the idea "valid"... sure... it serves a purpose for you - mentally.

And, if you were to "say"... well, what would "I"dentity be "without" that "one" thing... I'd have to concede - a confused/lost being.

So... if you "need" that "idea" to provide/sustain your "I"dentity, then... so be it - I'm not your therapist. However, you are going to spend a lot of mental energy, keeping your "idea" from being tempered via reality.

Now, if I don't have a "need" to prove you right or wrong, then, other than mere entertainment, why would I have engaged you - glad you didn't ask :p

Just as you don't like having to explain yourself, when you make propositions, neither do some who are approached by Christians/religious and asked to defend their position.

However, I have a few reasons I bring up, at the beginning of a six foot scroll of issues I have :o)

- Ideas are "noun" things, not "noun" objects found in our external reality. Teaching children that they are, causes confusion in their develop-mental years. When a child, becomes confused, they may perceive the "idea" of a being, with a "physical" being. And, well... then we get them making arguments for a "physical" being, as opposed to the true nature of the concept - which is truly an "idea".

- If, a person holds onto their "one" thing/idea, and attempts to keep it safe from change - causes a pressure differential between the inside of one's mental reality, and their sense messages. If the pressure deviation becomes too great on either side, one may witness a mental implosion/explosion. Personally, I attempt to stay away from people who are using a lot of energy to mentally isolate themselves - it's only a matter of time until... they just need to let go, and allow their mind to breath - which, by the way, is what you are doing... in small, shallow, breaths, with cold bitter air :o)

- Many people, not only accept the "idea" of a God, they "amplify" such an idea, and make it appear "ideal" or "perfect", by which one attempts to emulate or reach through particular behaviors, etc. This is destructive, because we seem to always be able to amplify "everything" to the point that it cheapens what we have... for instance; perfect "love", what is it? An amplified form of what a person "thinks" regular "love" is... whatever that is. Can a person, ever live up so such standards, or ever "expect" to find such in reality?

Now, there are many other, issues that come up. Obviously, a person needs balance, living too far out in the external - they are more animal than human... living too far inward, they can't communicate with others, etc. And, in either case, their humanity has lost something.

There are professions that make money, giving help to those who manifest such behaviors, etc.

Anyway, to be honest, my "one" thing, isn't a God idea, but it is an idea, grounded in my experience in life... And... it's an extremely "versatile" idea (principle(s)), that moves & incorporates "change(s)"...

Since you brought up God, I'll bring up philosophy :o)

Socrates: "To find yourself, think for yourself."

Socrates: "I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think."

Jim Arvo said...

gweny said "I admit I haven't read a lot about the theories of evolution..."

Bingo. Why not start there? It might clear up a great many of your misconceptions.

rickyusvi said...

Gweny wrote: “You all are forgetting one important point...I am not just listening to a pastor or creationists, or any other religious person...Jesus said we could get straight to The Father through Him....”

Jesus said, blah, blah, blah. So you’re getting your information about a fictional character from another fictional character? (Even if there was a historical Jesus, the gospels are thoroughly unreliable accounts.)

Gweny wrote: “I have been burned as much or more than you all by religious people, and I don't consider myself one....And I don't really like being lumped with Christians...”

1. You worship a personal god and live out of a holy book. You are religious. Get over it.

2. If you consider Jesus a direct line to the Father, then what are you if not a Christian?

Gweny wrote: “...not that I am totally 'going it alone', as I have quite a few peers who have discovered this stuff right along with me...and what we have learned through our relationhip with God (we call Him Father :o)) has validated each other...and we are spread apart and only get together occasionally, but we can see God working out things in our lives that are much the same. I guess you could call this evidence....”

Evidence, eh? Anything that you can submit to a lab for analysis?

Neurobiologists have worked on such evidence, and they’ve learned a lot about how God communicates with us through the temporal lobes of our brains. Alas, they’ve found not a trace of God himself. :-(

Gweny wrote: “And I see more evidence in creation every day...the miracle of life...the little things in different animals that help them survive and thrive...I am not a scientist probably by all your definitions, as I haven't gone to college for it, but I am a scientist in that I love to study the natural world and I read quite a bit about it...it all works in synchronicity... [...].”

And it is the task of science to figure out how it all came to fit together. “Goddidit” (creationism or ID) is all well and good, but it is not a useful answer, and worse, tends to shut down scientific inquiry.

A scientist by my definition is one who uses the scientific method to gain knowledge. (College is relevant to becoming a professional scientist.) Do you know and use the scientific method?

Gweny wrote: “I admit I haven't read a lot about the theories of evolution...it all doesn't make sense to me, I suppose...”

Well, you also need to admit that what little you have read is dead wrong. We’ve seen it over and over; what creationists think is evolution isn’t evolution at all. (Your talk about randomness and macro-evolution are dead giveaways that you are grossly misinformed about it.)

Gweny wrote: “...but I do know the difference between micro evolution and macro evolution....”

Do you? Then can you explain what a “kind” is?

Micro- and macro-evolution are more creationist propaganda than anything else. Real biologists rarely use the terms, and regard them as different in scale only—sort of like the difference between sky blue and navy blue.

Stronger now wrote: “Did you ask your god for help with this? If so he seems to have left you high and dry here.”

Gweny responded: “You have no idea...:o) on the contrary, He has used athiests [sic] like you and this whole conversation to solidify things He has been doing in me...”

Really!? I don’t recall Him approaching me with a consent form to sign... Did you sign one, Stronger now?

Gweny wrote: “Again, I can't resist...God Bless :o)”

May you be touched by His noodly appendage. RAmen.

stronger now said...

"I don’t recall Him approaching me with a consent form to sign... Did you sign one, Stronger now?"

Nope. The dogma must have ate it!

SEO said...

Your god is using atheists? Are we puppets on a string or does he have his hand up our bums?

I feel violated. A smidgen less than what a knocked-up, 13-year old virgin might feel but violated nevertheless.

germandoctor said...

However, what is that makes us think that we deserve more in life? If we do not have the perfect childhood, parents, spouse, home, job, health, ect... we feel that we have been cheated --- deprived of our fair share of life’s goodness.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not saying that what happen to you and your family is fair or good or just. I am just wondering why we expect so much more for ourselves, yet over-look the pain and suffering of others. Thousands of parents lose their children everyday in horrendous circumstances like war, famine, pandemic diseases, and gang violence. The majority of the world’s population lives in poverty with very little hope of escaping.

Unlike your son’s illness we can help and improve many of these situations --- yet, few are willing to make the effort or sacrifice. Do these people deserve what they get? Do these mothers and fathers suffer less ---I think not.

It is OK to be angry with God, and the universe, and life --- but, please do not let this anger rob of the joy and benefit that you can offer to others in the midst of your pain and beyond. Scott, you have a choice, you can honor your son’s memory by being the hero and honorable man that I am sure he believed you to be or become so bitter that you serve no one --- like the god you are so angry with.

I do not know why you must endure this sorrow, and I can not explain the God of Christianity. Yet, it seems that for you to be so angry with Him and doubt His benevolence, you must believe that He exists. Maybe, like Jacob, before he became Israel, you must wrestle with God until you get your blessing and become a champion.

germandoctor said...

Dear Scott,

First let me say that I am sorry for your loss and I know that there are no platitudes that can erase your pain and sorrow.

However, what is that makes us think that we deserve more in life? If we do not have the perfect childhood, parents, spouse, home, job, health, ect... we feel that we have been cheated --- deprived of our fair share of life’s goodness.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not saying that what happen to you and your family is fair or good or just. I am just wondering why we expect so much more for ourselves, yet over-look the pain and suffering of others. Thousands of parents lose their children everyday in horrendous circumstances like war, famine, pandemic diseases, and gang violence. The majority of the world’s population lives in poverty with very little hope of escaping. Unlike your son’s illness we can help and improve many of these situations --- yet, few are willing to make the effort or sacrifice. Do these people deserve what they get? Do these mothers and fathers suffer less --- I think not.

It is OK to be angry with God, and the universe, and life --- but, please do not let this anger rob of the joy and benefit that you can offer to others in the midst of your pain and beyond. Scott, you can have a choice, you can honor your son’s memory by being the hero and honorable man that I am sure he believed you to be or become so bitter that you serve no one --- like the god you are so angry with.

I do not know why you must endure this sorrow, and I can not explain the God of Christianity. Yet, it seems that for you to be angry and doubt His benevolence, you must believe that He exists. Maybe, like Jacob, before he became Israel, you must wrestle with God until you get your blessing and become a champion.

rickyusvi said...

Dear germandoctor,

Methinks you completely misunderstood Scott’s message and the change in the nature of his relationship with God.

sconnor said...

This is to germandoctor,

It's odd, on one hand you seem to portray yourself as knowledgeable on certain points and then play dumb on others. I'm not quite sure what to make of your advice. I agree that this existence is shitty, but I am having a hard time understanding this system. If there is a God, did he create some of us to suffer just so the rest of us could help? Is suffering a tool to get me motivated to help other people with there suffering. Nothing makes sense. I'm beginning to get the idea that there is no meaning to this miserable existence, and any attempts at deriving a meaning or a purpose is just the workings of our own finite and feeble mind. What I do know is, Connor can't go fishing, or create, or accomplish the things he wanted to accomplish in his life and he indeed represents any child who's life was cut short. How can there be a meaning to life if these kids who die didn't even get a chance to experience life?
I was robbed; my son was taken away and with my son my life was taken as well, all joy has been vaporized. Connor was robbed -- robbed of his dreams and aspirations. So, I don't think we deserve more in life, I think we are at the mercy of the laws of nature. We are just fragile biological beings susceptible to injury and disease -- simple!
Scott

Anonymous said...

Holy smokes Scott...I can definetly say that you are so loved by many that have not even met you, or have even fell upon your ripple yet. Your son...he is proud. He sounds like like a young man that we would all like to be like. I've had death in my arms as I asked myself why...how come...I get angry. I'm sorry about Connor (Sweet name too by the way). I don't know what to say....I've had freinds with diseases....die as well from them. Family that live with diseases that Doctors say will die from. I've come to a conclusion that you are ok in my book for your resentment. I think as all we understand...and for that reason....now I'm sounding like the last guy-sorry man. WE ARE...WE NEED...WE WILL...YOUR GOOD. We all have many things to say in the end. He's sorry...and we know it. I'm sorry and I hope that helps.

Anonymous said...

I really don't know how to start this comment. I am too had fallen many times in my life. There are things that I have done that up to now I am wondering if God really forgave me.To give you an idea "on how deep I was burried" then, I was pocessed. Its hard to explain or give evidence but I know to myself it happened. And it happened many times. And having faith or not did not exempt me from sufferings. Maybe the Philiosphical idea that could God create a rock that He could not carry will help you in times. But when you are really tiered of the sufferings in this life new question arises. One thing I realized for the past 38 years He has given me. He always watches. There are times He did not gave me what I want but never he did watch me. It's hard again to explain or give evidence but I know to myself He watches. And sorry for the death of your child. No one knows why except God. But remember he always watches. ////Jo

redtail said...

Ok, I just HAVE to ask...what IS it with christians and spelling? SERIOUSLY!!

Jim Arvo said...

germandoctor said "If we do not have the perfect childhood, parents, spouse, home, job, health, ect... we feel that we have been cheated --- deprived of our fair share of life’s goodness." (emphasis added)

Perfect? Did you say perfect!? Do you think that a parent who deeply mourns the loss of a child is whining that life is not perfect?

germandoctor went on to point out how many other children die, and asked "Do these people deserve what they get? Do these mothers and fathers suffer less --- I think not."

Geee, do you really think not? That's deep. Wow, what a show of compassion, Doc. Question: of what relevance is that observation? I could point out that there is no shortage of insensitive people, but that in no way excuses your insensitivity, does it?

germandoctor said "It is OK to be angry with God, and the universe, and life --- but, please do not let this anger rob of the joy..."

You're talking about "joy" to a person who recently lost a child? Did you get that diploma of yours from the back of a cerial box? Did I mention that you seem to be insensitive? You don't know a thing about grief, do you? Did you miss that lecture in medical school?

germanquack continued: "Yet, it seems that for you to be angry and doubt His benevolence, you must believe that He exists."

Now you've passed from insensitive to unethical; you are trying to exploit grief to proselytize. That's disgusting. Just in case you weren't paying attention it's spelled "hippocratic", not "hypocratic"--that may be where you went wrong.

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