Christianity is a crock
Sent in by John
I grew up a Roman Catholic and when I reached 18 was co-erced into checking out Pentecostalism by some friends of mine at school.
I went along and was pretty much converted within a week. What joy! What peace! What a crock!
After wandering around for about 18 years as a bible-believing Christian, I was struck by the lack of real love among the chosen and the total disregard for the "unsaved." I became a street preacher after getting into Ray Comfort's teachings (with Kirk Cameron!) and spent a good year and a half bothering others about their sin!
I met an atheist on the street and we became kinda pen friends. He wrote to me and what impressed me was not just the facts he was presenting but the mere fact he bothered to answer those nagging doubts I had over the years.
After coming to a realization in my own mind about the fact that the whole Christian thing was ridiculous (with some help from some medication prescribed by a shrink) I was cured of my beliefs and finally, for the first time in years, had clarity in my life.
Now I consider the whole thing to be a bad dream in a way, believing everything the Bible said no matter how ridiculous and unrealistic, and slavingly following a dead guy who probably never existed in the first place, was not the best use of my time!
I really hope if you are doubting your "faith" that you continue to ask questions and don't just put your doubts at the back of your mind and blindingly follow like I did.
Believing in an invisible god who dishes out punishment to those who don't agree with him or tow the line is rather silly, don't you think?
I grew up a Roman Catholic and when I reached 18 was co-erced into checking out Pentecostalism by some friends of mine at school.
I went along and was pretty much converted within a week. What joy! What peace! What a crock!
After wandering around for about 18 years as a bible-believing Christian, I was struck by the lack of real love among the chosen and the total disregard for the "unsaved." I became a street preacher after getting into Ray Comfort's teachings (with Kirk Cameron!) and spent a good year and a half bothering others about their sin!
I met an atheist on the street and we became kinda pen friends. He wrote to me and what impressed me was not just the facts he was presenting but the mere fact he bothered to answer those nagging doubts I had over the years.
After coming to a realization in my own mind about the fact that the whole Christian thing was ridiculous (with some help from some medication prescribed by a shrink) I was cured of my beliefs and finally, for the first time in years, had clarity in my life.
Now I consider the whole thing to be a bad dream in a way, believing everything the Bible said no matter how ridiculous and unrealistic, and slavingly following a dead guy who probably never existed in the first place, was not the best use of my time!
I really hope if you are doubting your "faith" that you continue to ask questions and don't just put your doubts at the back of your mind and blindingly follow like I did.
Believing in an invisible god who dishes out punishment to those who don't agree with him or tow the line is rather silly, don't you think?
Comments
Anyway, I like how you mentioned the fact that you liked how your friend was willing to answer your doubts with substance. I know when I went to x-tian friends/mentors of mine with similar questions, they always told me to refrain from watching, listening to, and reading things that could possibly cause doubt.
To be honest, I'm puzzled when I look back on it all. I know the reason I converted was because of a stirring fear of Hell, but I just wonder -- why didn't I try to figure out if Hell was real before I bought into Christianity hook, line, and sinker? It's still something of a mystery to me, but I think a lot of it just comes down to the fact that I didn't know there were other options.
By the end of my Christian period I was severely depressed and in desperate need of medication or a shrink! Actually, finding that the root of my depression was the inconsistency and fear bred by Christianity was a major part of my deconversion.
Good luck! I hope you continue forward with purpose!
Let me ask all of you - is it CHRIST you reject, or is it 'religion'? Because there is something ironis in this issue - Christ rejected religion also - the way that it was being practiced in His day, is exactly as you describe it in your experience - and there is a simple reason behind this... There are VERY FEW CHRISTIANS IN THE "CHURCH" OF TODAY. People who truly love the Lord Jesus, the One who saved our souls! Who Gave His Life! Jesus is a HERO OF MONUMENTAL PROPORTIONS! He is the ONLY one who could meet the requirements of righteousness as decreed by the LAW of God and He did it for US! ALL OF US!
How can you hate a hero - one who gives His life - what greater love has any man than this? That He lay down His life for His friends? But Jesus is greater than this: God shows His love for us in this, that while we were still sinners Christ Died for us!!!! HE DIED WHILE WE WERE STILL HIS ENEMIES IN ORDER THT WE COULD BE COUNTED AS HIS FRIENDS.
I don't understand how anyone can hate this? I'm sorry - "No I don't want you to love me!" What kind of statement is this? Insane!
but here is the catch - you have all talked about rejecting the church - or rather the hypocrisy of the church as it stands. Christ did also. He was calling people to stop living for themselves, and live under the power of the God who redeems, the God who saves, the God who loves and the God who Forgives.
If the people professing to be in His church actually understood Him, and understood this command - "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples - If you have love for one another"... actually this is an outward sign that Christ has given to the not-yet-believers in order that they may test and see if the ones 'professing to be Christians' are indeed who they say they are. I dare you to search again for such ones - ones who truly are believers, and not ones who have come for the 'club benefits' of Christian churches. I actually confess that there are not as many churches out there who truly are from the Lord Jesus Christ. Most who proclaim to be His church are not... simply by applying His own test that He gave, you will find this to be so.
Don't reject Christ because of false witnesses and testimonies about Him! And don't be so quick to place your judgement on those in the church who haven't yet got it right - a lot of this responsibility for the failure in todays' churches is because of the teaching - the pastors, ministers etc who have not been true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ are going to have the judgement of God is gonna come down on them like a ton of bricks (or a whip with cords - as when Jesus drove the money-lenders out of the Temple).
But look again - your peace depends on it. There is no peace without Christ - the Prince of Peace... everything else is immitation and unworthy of a second glance! The Lord of Heaven stepped down from glory to give His life as a ransom for your soul. He did this in order that you might have life eternal. What a great God... and those who believe in Him should stand up and follow Him as Jesus commanded us to!
May you not stop the search - and may look and look until you find THE TRUTH (p.s. it's IN HIM)
--Geoff
It means that he considered himself a Christian. And that, sir, is as much definition as is necessary. Each individual declares their own Christian-ness, or lack thereof. Saying 'You were never a true Christian!' is a crock.
"Jesus is a HERO OF MONUMENTAL PROPORTIONS! He is the ONLY one who could meet the requirements of righteousness as decreed by the LAW of God and He did it for US! ALL OF US!"
Hey, lookee! There's another crock. (puts it on the shelf next to the first one)
"I don't understand how anyone can hate this? I'm sorry - 'No I don't want you to love me!' What kind of statement is this? Insane!"
No, "insane" is 'You were born a hopeless, vile sinner and must accept a mythical blood sacrifice of a god to itself, otherwise that god will torture you forever.'
Christianity is unspeakably vile.
Oh yeah, and a crock, too.
"There is no peace without Christ - the Prince of Peace... everything else is immitation and unworthy of a second glance!"
Now that's what I call a crock. A highly destructive one, too.
"May you not stop the search - and may look and look until you find THE TRUTH..."
...that Christianity is indeed a crock.
Your long (and in my opinion, quite irritating) post actually serves to demonstrate the type of mindless brainwashing Christianity is capable of inflicting on such victims as yourself. You committed several fallacies in your arguments (if one can even call them that), but the most serious was your continued use of appeal to emotion. Not only do you make yourself sound childish and immature when you do this, but it also makes you appear unnecessarily arrogant and obnoxious to the point of deterring people on an emotional basis from even considering what you have to say. Ironic isn’t it. On an intellectual level, you are incapable of holding your ground. Not one validly constructed argument was set up by you to support your nonsensical diatribe. Instead, you expect your reader to consider your words on the basis of your own opinions and unsupported scriptural texts. It’s bad enough that the Bible is full of erroneous and self-contradictory content; your very words reveal the absurdities of your faith.
Do us a few favors Ryan: (1) go read some books on logic, (2) get a better education, (3) stay off this site to avoid making a fool out of yourself as you already have
It’s a shame to see what kind of mental damage this freak religion can do
Have you ever considered a career in Telemarketing? You have all the qualifications such as knowing how to be totally inappropropiate and say the wrong thing at the wrong time and ask questions that are none of your business. You would be an outstanding telemarketer...maybe you should consider this?
And Ryan, first of all, you are not a friend, either old or new. That being understood, I will proceed.
Your response is common, and I heard it until I became sick. "We just didn't hear the right religion; we just didn't hear about the right jesus" Look numbnuts, have you read the postings here? Hmmm? We know all about your jesus and he doesn't work.
You pathetic excuse for a man. xrist, I feel sorry for you. Try to get this through that armor plate that you are using for a skull. If your god exists, he would have come to our aid. No, do not blame false churches and false witnesses and false this and false that. A real god would have worked around that, and would have come to the aid of poor hurting people who prayed sincere prayers and held out their hands as best they could. Your kind continues to blame some sort of theological manfunction for our problems. No, dummy, that is an excuse. A real god would have been there for us, theology or no theology. A real god would have been waiting to receive us.
But there was no god, and sure as hell no reception. You haven't heard a word we've said, nor do you care. And that really is the point, isn't it? You don't care about hurting people, you are in here to preach your little jewsus. Go peddle that shit elswhere.
John 3:16 -- “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have ever lasting life."
This is the hook that gets many people to buy into Christianity, even converting to Christianity from Islam, because Christians seem to have a more loving God than Muslims do...
And it's the verse in the Bible that has been translated into more than 1100 languages, according to the Bible placed in nearly every motel and hotel room by the Gideons.
And it's why Christians become "bond slaves" of Jesus -- relinquishing their own will for the will of God; after all, He gave his only begotten son...
In the book entitled "The Dark Side: How Evangelical Teachings Corrupt Love and Truth" Valerie Tarico, Ph.D writes in Chapter 12, Blood of the Lamb:
“What, Exactly, Was Sacrificed or Given Up?
As terrible as the crucifixion sounded to me as a child, I have harbored secret, guilty thoughts: If you know you’re gonna die but be alive again in three days, what’s such a big deal about that? If you sacrifice your son but you know he’s going to rise again – so what? The big thing about death is it lasts. So death without death isn’t really death, is it? OK, Jesus suffered a lot. But if you knew you could save everybody who ever lived from forever in hell by getting crucified and then dying – but only for three days, wouldn’t you do it? I mean what kind of person wouldn’t?”
I've had these thoughts myself many times, but it was nice to see them in print by an enlightened author.
First, I am as sure as I can be that there is no Christian gods. They claim at least three but none actually exist. I am sure of this.
I am also confident that there is no such places as heaven or hell. If I were not sure of this, I would not be a member of this group.
Now I said that to say this: I would never go on a christian website and proclaim any of this stuff. Why do you cretins feel it's necessary to do that here?
However, it is fun sometimes to be reminded just how ignorant I was at one time in my life. That is all you guys are accomplishing here or didn't you know that?
Anyway, thanks for the constant reminders but I won't be trading in my reason and logic for belief anytime soon. In other words, get lost, will ya?
"Christ rejected religion also - the way that it was being practiced in His day, is exactly as you describe it in your experience - and there is a simple reason behind this... There are VERY FEW CHRISTIANS IN THE "CHURCH" OF TODAY."
I've posted about this mindset before. The fact that all xtians have to modify, and restructure the message of the bible to make it fit their sense of what is right and logical. However, in some extreme cases as this one is, Ryan has to first denounce the Christianity of seeming hypocrites so he can make himself part of some elite small xtian club. A club that is like a remnant of the only 'real' xtians. Then, to make it even crazier, Ryan has (as most xtians are taught to do) completely separate his concept of Jesus from the xtian religion as a whole. Well sorry, no can do- Jesus is a figure of the xtian religion. Simply believing he existed, makes you a follower of a religion, pure and simple. I personally don't believe Jesus is a historical figure. I believe he is purely mythological, but if he were real, and the bible's account of him is true... Then he never specifically and outright claimed to be god anyway. On top of that, the writers of the four gospels plus the writers of some of the gospels left out of the American canon of scripture can't even seem to get their story straight on who he was.
Amusing, the attacks on character that come when someone is wounded and has no other rational argument to stand on.
Anyway, your statments Eylisha about the parts of scripture that are unable to be taken as 'non-literal'... I agree, becuase many areas of scripture are prose or poetry, some are historical accounts, and some are prophetic utterances.
But I disagree that you have to ignore whole sections of the bible. In fact, as scripture testifies about itself: "all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, admonishing and training in righteousness"... you have to understand what was the historical intent behind much of the writing, the intended audience and the times for the listeners.
When it talks about God providing for your needs, clothing, food etc - it is asking us to rely on Him alone, and not on the ways of the world in order to fill our needs. This comes with the proviso that we are not lazy ourselves in pursuing employment / business ventures and devloping ourselves to be thoroughly useful to the community as a whole. The onus is not on God alone, but indeed on us IN PARTNERSHIP WITH GOD.
Many churches are teaching a concepot of 'prosperity' where we COMMAND OR DESERVE God to pour out His blessing on us because we are His people - well look at Job?! A more Godly and faithful man was not to be found alive during his time - and the Lord allowed him to be tested, for his family to be divided and for him to be inflicted with all sorts of ailments and rejection - TO PROVE THE CHARACTER of him! Job overcame the adversity in his life - and there is no where in scripture that states thhat you will receive a life free from struggle or pain or persecution or disagreement - life IS full of those things (as a result of the fall) and as scriptrue testifies 'the sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike'.
I hear this argument often about the hideousness of a God that ALLOWS children to be molested etc. Being someone who was inflicted-upon with some of these things myself in my childhood, I often asked Him why it had to happen to me - but scripture again testifies - 'what the world has intended for evil, God has used for the good!' Since experiencing those things, and recieving His healing and love over those areas in my life, I have been able to reassure others who have been hurting from abuse, or violence or mistreatment, that there is God who cares, a God who speaks and a God who loves us... He is waiting there to comfort us - all we have to do is reach back to Him.
Now the road to recovery is not easy for anyone from abuse or shame, but it is much easier when we lift our eyes out of the struggle and look higher. It is a sad state thhat the world has gotten into - when people professing to be of the faith, abuse, mistreat and deviate from where God intended us to dwell - in righteousness with him. This is a product of the fall, and I'm sure you've heard this argument before, but to reiterate - this world will all come to an end - as scriptrue testifies "the sky will be rolled up like a scroll and heaven and earth will pass away"... with the promise of a 'new heaven annd earth'.
There is another interesting misconception about scripture and it's statement of 'faith being required'... faith as a concept has been bastardized by those who should know better (false teachers) and turned into 'if you will only believe that God will give you... that God will bless you... that you can have..." scripture's understanding of what faith is, is this: TAKING GOD AT HIS WORD. this is shown early on in Genesis when Abraham 'believed God (what He has just promised) and it was attested to Him as righteousness'.
Many people in Christian circles have been damaged by false teaching on what it means to have faith, what it means to have healing... kind of "if you wish for it hard enough"... but God is not Jiminy Cricket ("when you wish upon a star")... what He promises in His word, He will deliver. Our fiath is believing that. Trusting that. And what that is really saying is - "God you are truthful, you are just, you do not lie (the things he testifies about himself) and I can trust you to look after my needs."
As far as our best interest goes - God has got it in mind - and in His wisdom, sometimes that means suffering - for as His word testifies, "having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, trhrough whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand and rejoice in hoipe of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations (suffering), knowing that tribulation produces perserverance; perserverance produces character and character produces hope." (Romans 5:1-4).
And the last thing I wanted to respond to in your comment was the last one - about 'god will give you no more than you can bear'... the verse is out of context: "No condemnation has seized you, except what is common to man, and God is faithful - He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear - but when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."
Many Christians have suffered - the scripture never promises that we will receive an easy life. In fact it says - that 'the world will hate you, because it always hated me' (Jesus speaking)... as someone who steps in faith - you DO separate from the mainstream, you DO find yourself isolated in your community, country, world. He SAID YOU WOULD. And HE is TRUTH. You can trust His words.
I look forward to hearing from you again Eylisha.
As for Jeremiah - the scripture testifies exactly what you said about Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. And this is precisely why Jesus went to His death - the Father promised that He would overcome death and bring many sons to glory - the Promise is why Jesus 'despising the shame of the cross' obeyed His Father even to death... He knew all along that He would overcome, the death itself was not end of His mission - it was the transition point. He had to die, in order to defeat death - which He did by rising again. Death was the last enemy of humanity, because through His righteous life, Jesus fulfilled the requirement sof the law - bringing an end to the need for it to ever be fulfilled by anyone again - Through His death, because He was righteous and undeserving of crucifixion, he made a suitable replacement for us all. Through His resurrection he shows us that God has vindicated humanity (in principle - dependent on those who accept Christ's sacrifice) of it's crimes - and through Christ has erased our debt.
So YES Jesus did go to His death - knowing that He would be raised again - that doesn't mean it was 'easy'... He sweats blood in Gethsemane prior to the death from the stress and pressure, They beat Him so badly that Isiah testifies: He has no form or comliness; and we we seem Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs amd carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we are healed. All we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
Defeating death was His purpose, revealing the Father was His life. Bringing you hope out of darkness was His gift. May you find Peace.
You don't seem to realise, but,
you're wrong.
Long posts that are poorly written and ill-formatted are painful to read. So, very few people will bother trying taking the time to sort through whatever it is you are trying to communicate. You might want to keep that in mind in the future.
Yeah, whatever. I "reached" to the bible god for comfort. None came. I prayed my ass off for many things that jebus promised and I needed. I trusted in the lard and I got nothing back. NO comfort, NO peace, NO help with my trials. NOTHING!
So I stopped having faith and found the strength in myself to overcome my impending institutionalization in a mental health facility. God failed me. He failed me because he doesn't exist. He is an imaginary friend. I have no need for such things.
And yes, look at Job. He had his children die so god could prove a point, and that's supposed to be fine because he got more children? Sounds like children are a commodity, like sheep, and can easily be replaced. BULLSHIT!
"Now the road to recovery is not easy for anyone from abuse or shame, but it is much easier when we lift our eyes out of the struggle and look higher. "
No it isn't. Not if you really believe that god will send you comfort and peace like jesus promised and it NEVER comes. I looked inward to change my life for the better because looking "higher" wasn't doing any good.
"...what faith is, is this: TAKING GOD AT HIS WORD."
Yep. And when I took him at his word he didn't do shit, because he dosn't exist.
"what He promises in His word, He will deliver."
Again, a claim that doesn't hold up to reality. He didn't "deliver" so I don't believe anymore.
"Our fiath is believing that. Trusting that. And what that is really saying is - "God you are truthful, you are just, you do not lie (the things he testifies about himself) and I can trust you to look after my needs."
Yeah, I HAD faith, until biblegod was found to be untrustworthy and unable to look after my needs. GET IT!
"Defeating death was His purpose, revealing the Father was His life. Bringing you hope out of darkness was His gift. May you find Peace."
He brought me no hope, he brought me nothing. I found peace, in unbelief. It was the only way I knew of to keep my sanity. Relying on god to help me got me nothing but closer to the loony bin.(literally)
Think before you speak. You are addressing people that have trusted the scriptures/god and found that the scriptures/god cannot be trusted. I have trusted god and found him untrustworthy. I needed help to keep my sanity and help didn't come from god. It was me trusting in god that was driving me insane.
Your longwinded drivel does nothing to dispell doubt, or ignorance. In fact it promotes ignorance.
So where is the credible evidence for your gods existence? If you can't find any then don't bother posting anything else because you'll make yourself look even more condescending.
"I turned to speak to God
About the world's despair;
But to make bad matters worse
I found God wasn't there" - Robert Frost
So, what do you think Robert Frost was trying to tell us?
What's that... it's too hard, okay, here's another one on morality and God's influence.
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way. So I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips
Does that one make more sense?
I assume from reading your post that you are you a Trinitarian, that is, one who believes in the Trinity doctrine. At any rate, since you spoke so strongly in favor of Christ, I assume you are familiar with the many speeches allegedly made by Christ, as reported in the New Testament, including the one in John 10.30: "I and the Father are one".
If as you believe that Christ and the old fucking Father-God of the Old Testament are one, then you will have to agree that Christ committed the many acts of cruelty, hatred, racism, killing, vengeance/revenge [genocide of Midianites?], infanticide, etc etc.
Have you read the Book of Revelation? I think it is the output of someone with a tendency for bouts of hallucination or brain-seizure. I assume you also believe in all that is stated in Revelation - because it is the word of God.
Please wake up; you are a clear example of someone who has been living in dreams or, more appropriately, believing myth to be truth.
How can you hate a hero - one who gives His life - what greater love has any man than this? That He lay down His life for His friends? But Jesus is greater than this: God shows His love for us in this, that while we were still sinners Christ Died for us!!!! HE DIED WHILE WE WERE STILL HIS ENEMIES IN ORDER THT WE COULD BE COUNTED AS HIS FRIENDS.
I don't understand how anyone can hate this? I'm sorry - 'No I don't want you to love me!' What kind of statement is this? Insane!
...
...
...”
Ryan, it’s not hate, anger, or rejection. It’s that we’ve come to realize that the whole Xian story is imaginary. It’s not real. It’s a fairy tale. A crock. Ramble on about false Xians. Blather on about how heroic Jesus was to die for our sinful, ungrateful butts. Use CAPS LOCK a lot. Unless and until you convince us that it’s any more real that Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, your passionate appeals to guilt, pity, and majuscules will fall on deaf ears.
YOFRyan wrote: “Thanks Eylisha for entering into a discussion in the spirit in which it was intended. I am sorry for all those who anger serves as a marking point for a condition of 'zero-tolerance'... with so many racists comments by members about people from Jewish origins, it makes me wonder what this site at times is promoting.”
This site is not promoting anything. It is a support group for ex-Christians, not an advocacy group. Try reading the disclaimer and some of the articles under “Introductory Stuff” on the left. In case you can’t be bothered to read them all, consider this:
Webmaster wrote: “A piece of advice to the Christian who feels compelled to post responses on this website: Realize that most of the former Christians you are communicating with here have been saturated with every apologetic you might present. None have left the faith easily, and none have left without some degree of emotional scarring. Many of those scars haven’t healed. If you decide that it is your heavenly mission to open those wounds afresh, expect that you may receive a biting response.”
YOFRyan wrote: “I am aksing questions and putting a vciew point that isa as valid as the next persons - albeit I'll draw mine from scripture - or has 'intolerance' slipped from the 'christians' into the 'exchristians' realm as well?”
What part of “ex-Christian” don’t you understand? We have already been Xians, and are past tired of hearing your stale arguments for the thousandth time. I’m also baffled at the sublime absurdity of you presenting us with a POV from a book that we believe to be a bunch of fairy tales.
There was even a point where I thought I had blasphemed the spirit and this was easier for me to accept than the fact that there was a god who was letting me go through constant shit and claimed to love me I actually felt at peace even though I was supposedly going to hell. I now see that I felt at peace because god was so obviously absent. I recently resorted to christianity again though I didnt last for more than a day as i became suicidal and there was no god to comfort me.
IM glad your stronger now and can reclaim your life lots of love eylisha
"What part of “ex-Christian” don’t you understand? We have already been Xians, and are past tired of hearing your stale arguments for the thousandth time"
--
rickyusvi,
I SWEAR (oops), that there must be a bounty in place from the xtian god for fundies to convert any non-believer or ex-xtian they can 'lay their hands on'.
How else can we explain the frequency they bounce into an ex-xtian site and start preaching their bible versus to us.
If there is no bounty on our heads, then they surely must believe that we once believed in their god but without ever seeing their 'secret' bible book. So I guess they figure if they spit out some scripture about how much jebus loves us, it will surely make us see-the-light of their wonderful gawd.
I propose that such a tactic would succeed about as much as getting an adult to re-believe in the childhood Santa myth.
If only these xtians could realize the answer to whether the xtian god exists, is just as clear to most of us as the santa myth is to (most?) of these xtians.
ATF (who wonders what bounty god has placed upon an infidel tooth fairy??)
"this post is for stronger now I understand what your saying because I myself suffered suicidal clinical depression for four years due to being a christian."
It sound like you had it tough during your stint in the church. Can I ask a couple of questions?...
1st: What happened as far as the involvement of discipleship and mentoring goes with your time in the church - ie: was there anyone who walked beside you throughout the journey - or did you find yourself left to your own devices much of the time? The reason I ask is that I found lonliness within the church was one of the biggest things
that turned me off - that and hypocrisy - especially from the leaders in the church I was in.
2nd: When you approached someone in the church for help with your questions (and I'm assuming that you did with this one) what was their response to you - was there 'advice and support' or 'advice and a pushing away' to 'fend for yourself'.
3rd: If it repulsed you so strongly the first time, why did you go back for a second helping - only to find hurt again?
Eylisha, I'm not asking these things because I wish to dig up and pour salt on old wounds - only to understand what it is in your experience that caused the decision you made.
I myself have wandered many times in my early years as a Christian, and been caught in so many sin-struggles that I am embarrassed to admit my track record. I also found people warning me of this whole 'grieving the Holy Spirit' thing that they swung around wildly to try to scare people into performing 'righteously'... which of course has the opposite affect as you will well know.
It's amazing how poorly that subject - the 'grieving the Holy Spirit' thing is flaunted - if you look at the accounts of Israel's obedience (or stark lack thereof) throughout the Old Testament you see something amazing - they performed every possible sin, and some that we probably wouldn't even consider (child sacrifice under the influence of Pagan deity worsip) and God forgave them, called for them to turn and meet Him, showed them that they were still loved by Him despite their rejection of Him time and time again.
If anybody was deserving of the title of 'grieving the Holy Spirit' (according to the pooor teaching that runs around today) it would be Israel, and then there would certainly be no account of the historically proven person of Jesus because by rights Israel should have been completely wiped out. The Word says that these people's (Israel) hearts were "only evil always". Yet God still chose them, loved them, forgave and restored them.
The grieving of the Holy Spirit comes from when we have accepted Christ, tasted the things of Christ, known His salvation, partaken in the Holy Spirit and then rejecting them and calling Him, the person of the Holy Spirit, the very presence of Evil, and in turn embracing the very presence of evil as if it were good - hence Lucifer (Satan and His fallen angels) is unable - even if he were human and therfore qualifed for the salvation offered by Christ - to receive salvation as a result.
Questioning, doubting and fearing you have made the wrong choice in 'opening up to faith' has not caused you to grive the Holy Spirit - in fact the Lord wants you to either be 'hot or cold, for the luke-warm I will spew from my mouth'... so take heart in knowing this - that you have not committed that sin.
In fact, as you were saying you couldn't hear the voice of Jesus - which is available through the Holy Spirit, I wonder that no-one has ever walked through that basic part of what it means to have a relationship with Jesus. It is a training thing, to learn to quiet your mind from all else, to meditate on the scriptures and to seek Him to speak to you. Now many on this site have claimed that God has never spoken - but He 'speaks in a still small voice', and you have to stop to listen
As Elijah experienced, the Lord approaching Him, earthquakes, fire, pestilence, thunder and lightening proceed Him, but He is in none of those - yet when He waits and hears that still small voice whispering, then He knows it is the Lord, comes out covering His face so that He will not be destroyed but the utter glory of the One who approaches.
I am not making any judgement statements on your situation - that you didn't try everything in your arsenal to hear from God - many have been in your situation and come away with the same response. But He does not stop speaking - He has spoken through His Son, and through His Word and it has not been retracted as of yet (when He does, this old creation will be done away with - it is the very voice of the Lord that holds everything in existence - such is His power).
Getting to that place, and forcing down the business in our minds, discerning the difference between our own thoughts and that of the Lord is an art that most who claim to know Him never actually succeed in. His voice when it speaks inside of you (through the person of the Holy Spirit) lights your being on fire and you know it is Him... AND IT ALWAYS AGREES WITH HIS WORD IN SCRIPTURE.
There is a lot that men who are in leadership (and women for that matter - but mostly men :) ) will be held accountable for. Many have borne false or weak testimony of Christ, many have claimed to be preaching Christ but are not - and they will stand before Him one day and give account for every soul they have led astray - make no mistake the punishment will be great on their heads... but there are few - a remnant as someone commented a while back.
Again referring to Elijah - "there are none left who worship you, God but me - and I am doomed to die" and God responds "I have reserved for myself 5000 faithful who have not bowed their knee to any idol"... In the whole of God's "chosen people" only a remnant were actually His. It is always so. Only a few will understand the type of devotion the Lord requires to be His. In fact if the true gospel were preached in ALL of the churches in America (and Australia where I come from) there probably would not be as many converts as there 'currently are' because the standard is too high.
The cost is too great. Jesus Himself said, "peace? I came not to bring peace, but a sword. Because of me and my words, families and houses will be divided one against one another. Sons against their fathers, daughters against their mothers, daughter in laws against there mother in laws" ...etc His word does not bring unity, it brings disruption...
Because it is not religion. It is the very words of Life! Jesus Himself said "true religion is this: be generous to the poor and kind to the widows". He is not interested in the religions of men - His true church is not a religious place.
It is conservative theologically (Bible-believing as the authority over the church and life-practices) but is progressive in culture - it does not swoon to steeples and bells, incence and pomp, drivel and robes or speaking in Latin (see Acts when the Holy Spirit comes upon the disciples and those listening each hear them speaking in their own language)
There is no such thing as 'Christian religion' mentioned in the New Testament whatsoever. Just those who love the Lord, filled with the Holy Spirit, socially repsonsible, loving towards others, caring and outreaching to those in their community with need and at the centre... the preaching of the Gospel -
THAT JESUS THE CHRIST CAME TO PAY THE PENALTY FOR OUR SINS SO THAT WE MIGHT BELIEVE IN HIM AND HAVE LIFE ETERNAL.
That is what the church should be.. If your experience of church (this is for any reader) has not been that - then you have not tasted the church that Christ himself built. Read the book of Acts. Objectively. As a reasearch to arm yourself with arguments against the false church if you like. See what the people who followed Christ did for those around them. See the love they had for one another and how they opperated on a day-to-day basis.
Thenturn to the letters of Pual - Corinthians, Galatians, hillipians and the like - see the church now operating in carnal and fleshly manner. How it is an abomination and Paul is teaching them they are out of line (Hey we need another few Pauls around now Lord if you got some)
For acceptance and forgiveness: see the account of Saul in acts who becomes Paul, who thought He was on the right path - religious in every way - but becomes something new when he meets Christ.
I can't wait to hear from you again Eylisha. May He bring you Peace.
Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV - "and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions."
The story of the sister whores, Aholah and Aholibah gives a moral lesson against the sins of the flesh. But why does God have to describe their adventures in such pornographic detail? Does God love porn?
What parent would want their children reading verse 21 about comparing the size of men's penises to donkey genitals and the sperm flow to that of horse issues?
Hey, YOFR, how's life treating ya' these days. Just so you know most people have read the bible, and understand it's conflicted and well, less than clean ::wink::
Ezekiel 4:12-13 - "And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them."
So, just because I want to get this straight, you're suggesting that the bible was written by your God, whose bread recipe included chunks of fecal matter from man.
Just curious there YOFR, does one need to be a fecal connoisseur or admirer of large stallion penises in order to understand the bible and appreciate it for what it's worth?
YOFR: "Thenturn to the letters of Pual - Corinthians, Galatians, hillipians and the like..."
"Hillipians", are you reading from the Hillbillian bible?
Old Friend Ryan: You are under the delusion, shared by most of the xian nuts here, that our problem is just that we didn't go to the right church, or meet the right xians, or hear the right dogma, or read the right verses, or search hard enough, or trust enough, or practice the right disciplines, and bullshitbullshitbullshit.
Look, dummy, if you had the brains to read the posts here, you would know better. As it happens, you have sat up late and typed long-winded posts, and repeated everything we have heard since we were children. Everything. Every goddamned thing. To the word. To the letter. Ad infinitum. Ad nauseum. Now in the name of all the gods, go away. Leave us in peace.
If you have some new and original thing to say, if you have something new about the jewsus that we have overlooked, please clue us in. We here represent the whole dreary, dismal and futile spectrum of xianity--the whole damned, goddamned process--and if you know anything we don't, let us in on it. Otherwise, haul your born-again ass outa here.
And you sure as the devil are no friend of mine.
"It is a training thing, to learn to quiet your mind from all else, to meditate on the scriptures and to seek Him to speak to you".....
"He is not interested in the religions of men - His true church is not a religious place".....
"If your experience of church (this is for any reader) has not been that - then you have not tasted the church that Christ himself built"
----
Hey YOFR,
As the other Ryan talks about later, surely we must have failed in our glorious quest to find your Jebus because we either didn't 'taste' the flavor of each of the 30,000 xtian sects to find god's true church, or we weren't 'quiet' enough to hear him calling our *numbed* minds.
It's obviously impossible to research 30,000 flavors of the Jesus worshipping churches, so I guess one must use something like a 50 foot dart board to make that critical determination, if one wishes to pick a church from this huge number.
Oh, but of course you dismiss the idea of one of these 30,000 sects being the right one, as the only true way to find your Jebus is by lying still with a "quiet mind" so one can hear God's WEAK voice inside our own skulls.
Of course, meditating on these god-words of your proclaimed god-book, surely will help to hear that weak whispering voice of your all-powerful god. I do have to wonder why one can't make first-contact with jesus without this last part, hmm.
So where exactly is this church that christ built, if its not the xtain folks within some brick&mortar church building.
Oh silly me, of course, his church is inside YOU, right YOFR?
So why should we join your personal church over the many other xtians who come in here with their own *personal* church for us to join?
Do they perhaps belong to YOUR church to, and if they do, do you ever disagree with their ideas about your god, because I figure if you do, then this holy spook of your god isn't doing a very good job of communicating the truth to each of you special xtians.
Why is it that any xtian who comes in here with a similar story as your own, always tells us that your god can only be heard by shutting down one's brain activities and then, most only hear him WHISPER his secrets to them. The scarier one's I'm afraid hear god loud and clear, but these type of xtians usually land up doing things like killing for their god in the end.
If your god is so powerful, and one is truly seeking him with all their heart, then why can't he either speak in a loud CLEAR voice to us, or perhaps ask Scotty to beam-him-down for a sit-down visit with us?
If what you say is factual about being in direct communication with this Jesus God being, and you agree that you aren't alone in this special communication, then I propose we take you and a few other xtians here who tell us this same story of jesus talking to them, and we compare notes between all of you in this special Jesus group.
If you're all correct about this methodology working as advertised, then you should all answer our questions in an identical fashion, yes?
That means, there would be NO points of contention between the majority of you special 'sole' xtians that don't belong to any human built church....RIGHT YOFR?
If on the other hand, you all come across with conflicting truths from this Jesus, then that really proves your advise here doesn't work, or that maybe, just maybe, there is no jebus out there and each of you only 'hear' what you WISH TO HEAR from your own personal made-up god entity.
Tell ya what YOFR, I think you need to do some research on the internet on things like Brainwashing Techniques, Hearing Little Voices in one's own mind, Hallucinations and their causes, and lastly, Self-Delusion of the Human Mind.
It's too late now, but I would have given the same advise to Paul of the bible.
However, I'm prone to think he needed a drug detox center more than Google.
So YOFR.......Can you prove out your claim of being in direct contact with your Jesus, or not?
ATF (who feels Scotty beaming him away from the xtian delusion, and back to the land of the rational minded)
Just wait until you wake up in hell...now that's a bad dream!
Dear brainwashed anonymous idiot,
There is no post-mortem "life"; there IS no "heaven"; there IS no "hell".
Bye now.
Is that the dream where your imaginary Friend lovingly drops us into His lovingly crafted imaginary lake of imaginary fire and imaginary brimstone and tortures us—after we’re dead and can’t feel anything?
Imaginary threats, now. Amusing. Pathetic.
Since they can't successfully argue their beliefs, they always, and I mean always, pull out the "Hell card". Sad....truly sad, and pathetic. The only reason I can still stomach them is because I used to be one of them. I have empathy for many of them, but not all of them.