A Personal Odyssey : from RC to Protestant to Atheism
Sent in by Ken
I was born into the Catholic faith. As a young boy, all I can recall was that it meant making sure I attended Sunday Mass and going for Sunday School. You could do anything you wanted during the week but God forbid if you ever missed a Mass. When I was about 12, I went for Confession. I rattled off some typical young boy's sins. The priest listened quietly until I said I missed Mass last 2 Sundays. I got a stern rebuke from the priest. He upped the number of Hail Mary's I had to recite in penance in the hope that "Mother Mary" will lead me to attend Mass.
At 14, a certain disillusionment had already set in about the liturgical approach to God with an emphasis on what to do especially on certain days (eg don't eat meat on Fridays).
In school, a friend of mine introduced me to a Christian group called the Navigators. They were a group which emphasized a lot on converting your friends and family (evangelism). As I liked to read, their approach to reading the Bible and introducing a personal Jesus who is interested in my everyday life was appealing. So, I began to attend their Bible Studies and soon got more and more involved in their activities.
Soon, I realized there was a price to pay for being involved - they wanted to control your thought process and started putting pressure on a young teenager like me to start converting other people. At that age, there was always a desire to fit in and so I gave in. I even went on the streets trying to convert total strangers. Those who brought back results were praised and extolled.
However, a part of me enjoyed my independent thought process and felt resentful that my views were not welcomed. For example, one leader declared that no one should watch the Steven Spielberg movie "ET, the extraterrestrial" because it "mimics" Christ. No debate about it. When I tried to express my view that it is only a fun movie, I began to experience a shift in attitude. They would smile in front of me but slowly began to distance themselves from me. This is just one of the many instances where a non-confrontational expression of views was viewed as "undesirable".
I was also a minority race in this country and soon realized that some of the leaders and Christian friends were uncomfortable interacting with me. They preferred to be close with those who share the same sub-culture and speak the same dialects (although English is prevalent here, many speak their own local dialects with their relatives and friends).
My isolation was increasing. No one would dare tell me straight to my face they had a problem with me. So, they smiled and ignored me.
One day, when I was 21, I was called by my Bible Study leader for a private one to one. This was the first time in one and a half years he had arranged for it. I was excited as I thought he was going to shepherd me. When the meeting started, he wasted no time. The leaders had met and no one wanted to pastor me. He asked that I leave. I was shocked but asked for 6 months as I had a student ministry which I wanted to transition over. He said, "No, leave today itself. Don't worry about your ministry. I will take care of it." Before I left, he said, "If you want, we can still be friends but I want you to know that as of today, I am no longer responsible for your spiritual life."
He knew I was not attending any church. He just left me in the lurch.
By then most of my Christian "friends" sensed I was no longer in favor with the leaders. Soon, they began to ostracize me. I was no longer invited for outings. I had a very good friend (or I thought so) and I can still recall him saying to me : "Like the Proverbs say, only an iron can sharpen iron" and with that he abandoned me and joined another group of Christians who were favored by the leaders.
I did not give up on God although I felt let down by the Christian group. Only one Christian friend kept me company and he suggested we both look for a church. I soon joined a Presbyterian Church.
My disillusionment with the Church grew. They were only interested in how much I donated and the activities I can help out on. I could be Adolf Hitler and they could not care less as long as I paid the dues and carried all the tasks they wanted. No one was in the least concerned about genuine love and spiritual growth. It was all lip service.
Once an Elder asked a Deacon to speak to me to lead a certain Ministry. I said I would like to focus on the youth ministry instead. The Deacon replied that the Elder's response was "If he does not want to lead that Ministry, he might as well leave this church". The straw that broke the camel's back. I left. After 7 years of serving the church, not a single soul called me to ask me why or how I am doing. I began to realize that I was only fooling myself that I was in the company of people who loved and cared for others. Like anyone in society, they got along only with those they can get along with. Even gangsters do that today - so I don't see what was so unique about that.
I initially tried to look for another church but a deeper disillusionment crept in. About that time, there was a seminar by a guest speaker from US who claimed he was so filled with the Holy Spirit, he can prophesy so accurately and he can even call you by name. I guess at that stage, i needed any form of affirmation that God exists. After all it appeared he had abandoned me more than once.
The seminar fee was not cheap but I paid up. When the "prophet" came, he said he was going to change the agenda from the scheduled prophesying to a sermon. He said God loves each one us. It is important to know that Christ died on the cross...what! I don't need to re-hear this message again. I paid for proof he exists. After giving that woolly speech for 20 mins, the "prophet" trotted off. The next speaker gave an hour speech on "giving". He shouted that we all should empty our wallets and have faith that God will bring us home.
I left the seminar in emotional tatters. I told God that he either send someone special to minister to me or to intervene directly in my life. No response. The 3rd choice was to intellectually evaluate whether there is a God.
The next 3 years, I spent reading up on the history of the Christian church and the quest for the historical Jesus. I was shocked as I read more and more how unreliable many of things that are touted as modern Christianity.
I also grappled with the concept of God. I went from agnostic to atheism. All the evidence seem to point to the non-existence of God (eg plurality of religions each claiming they own the true god).
Today, I am a happier person because I am not caught up in the mind control games of religion.
Singapore
Joined: Born into the faith
Left: 32
Was: Roman Catholic; Protestant; Presbyterian
Now: Atheist
Converted because: I felt that was the Truth
De-converted because: Did not find evidence of God in his people and directly
Email: kp68sg AT yahoo DOT com
I was born into the Catholic faith. As a young boy, all I can recall was that it meant making sure I attended Sunday Mass and going for Sunday School. You could do anything you wanted during the week but God forbid if you ever missed a Mass. When I was about 12, I went for Confession. I rattled off some typical young boy's sins. The priest listened quietly until I said I missed Mass last 2 Sundays. I got a stern rebuke from the priest. He upped the number of Hail Mary's I had to recite in penance in the hope that "Mother Mary" will lead me to attend Mass.
At 14, a certain disillusionment had already set in about the liturgical approach to God with an emphasis on what to do especially on certain days (eg don't eat meat on Fridays).
In school, a friend of mine introduced me to a Christian group called the Navigators. They were a group which emphasized a lot on converting your friends and family (evangelism). As I liked to read, their approach to reading the Bible and introducing a personal Jesus who is interested in my everyday life was appealing. So, I began to attend their Bible Studies and soon got more and more involved in their activities.
Soon, I realized there was a price to pay for being involved - they wanted to control your thought process and started putting pressure on a young teenager like me to start converting other people. At that age, there was always a desire to fit in and so I gave in. I even went on the streets trying to convert total strangers. Those who brought back results were praised and extolled.
However, a part of me enjoyed my independent thought process and felt resentful that my views were not welcomed. For example, one leader declared that no one should watch the Steven Spielberg movie "ET, the extraterrestrial" because it "mimics" Christ. No debate about it. When I tried to express my view that it is only a fun movie, I began to experience a shift in attitude. They would smile in front of me but slowly began to distance themselves from me. This is just one of the many instances where a non-confrontational expression of views was viewed as "undesirable".
I was also a minority race in this country and soon realized that some of the leaders and Christian friends were uncomfortable interacting with me. They preferred to be close with those who share the same sub-culture and speak the same dialects (although English is prevalent here, many speak their own local dialects with their relatives and friends).
My isolation was increasing. No one would dare tell me straight to my face they had a problem with me. So, they smiled and ignored me.
One day, when I was 21, I was called by my Bible Study leader for a private one to one. This was the first time in one and a half years he had arranged for it. I was excited as I thought he was going to shepherd me. When the meeting started, he wasted no time. The leaders had met and no one wanted to pastor me. He asked that I leave. I was shocked but asked for 6 months as I had a student ministry which I wanted to transition over. He said, "No, leave today itself. Don't worry about your ministry. I will take care of it." Before I left, he said, "If you want, we can still be friends but I want you to know that as of today, I am no longer responsible for your spiritual life."
He knew I was not attending any church. He just left me in the lurch.
By then most of my Christian "friends" sensed I was no longer in favor with the leaders. Soon, they began to ostracize me. I was no longer invited for outings. I had a very good friend (or I thought so) and I can still recall him saying to me : "Like the Proverbs say, only an iron can sharpen iron" and with that he abandoned me and joined another group of Christians who were favored by the leaders.
I did not give up on God although I felt let down by the Christian group. Only one Christian friend kept me company and he suggested we both look for a church. I soon joined a Presbyterian Church.
My disillusionment with the Church grew. They were only interested in how much I donated and the activities I can help out on. I could be Adolf Hitler and they could not care less as long as I paid the dues and carried all the tasks they wanted. No one was in the least concerned about genuine love and spiritual growth. It was all lip service.
Once an Elder asked a Deacon to speak to me to lead a certain Ministry. I said I would like to focus on the youth ministry instead. The Deacon replied that the Elder's response was "If he does not want to lead that Ministry, he might as well leave this church". The straw that broke the camel's back. I left. After 7 years of serving the church, not a single soul called me to ask me why or how I am doing. I began to realize that I was only fooling myself that I was in the company of people who loved and cared for others. Like anyone in society, they got along only with those they can get along with. Even gangsters do that today - so I don't see what was so unique about that.
I initially tried to look for another church but a deeper disillusionment crept in. About that time, there was a seminar by a guest speaker from US who claimed he was so filled with the Holy Spirit, he can prophesy so accurately and he can even call you by name. I guess at that stage, i needed any form of affirmation that God exists. After all it appeared he had abandoned me more than once.
The seminar fee was not cheap but I paid up. When the "prophet" came, he said he was going to change the agenda from the scheduled prophesying to a sermon. He said God loves each one us. It is important to know that Christ died on the cross...what! I don't need to re-hear this message again. I paid for proof he exists. After giving that woolly speech for 20 mins, the "prophet" trotted off. The next speaker gave an hour speech on "giving". He shouted that we all should empty our wallets and have faith that God will bring us home.
I left the seminar in emotional tatters. I told God that he either send someone special to minister to me or to intervene directly in my life. No response. The 3rd choice was to intellectually evaluate whether there is a God.
The next 3 years, I spent reading up on the history of the Christian church and the quest for the historical Jesus. I was shocked as I read more and more how unreliable many of things that are touted as modern Christianity.
I also grappled with the concept of God. I went from agnostic to atheism. All the evidence seem to point to the non-existence of God (eg plurality of religions each claiming they own the true god).
Today, I am a happier person because I am not caught up in the mind control games of religion.
Singapore
Joined: Born into the faith
Left: 32
Was: Roman Catholic; Protestant; Presbyterian
Now: Atheist
Converted because: I felt that was the Truth
De-converted because: Did not find evidence of God in his people and directly
Email: kp68sg AT yahoo DOT com
Comments
My experience is very similar to yours. I, too, was ostracized by Christians who couldn't tolerate my free thinking.
I stayed for a long time because of low self-esteem issues I carry from my childhood. I suppose I believed that it was OK to be mistreated. I didn't know any better.
I also share with you the burden of having to leave in a culture different from mine. It is always difficult and Christians aren’t the only ones who look to socialize exclusively with their own. The problem is that they proclaim unconditional love and acceptance—hypocrites.
It always surprises me when I hear stories like yours. I don't know exactly why, since I've heard them from people who are closer to me than blood relations as well as all the stories here. These people, these self-proclaimed followers of Christ who claim to be accepting of all who walk through their doors only seem to accept you until you challenge their belief system or status quo. None of them has the stomach to truly accept the way they say Jesus did and I think we're all better off without them!
"As I stated before, NONE of us are perfect. I hope and pray, to the God you say you don't believe in anymore, that you will find the love and acceptance that you are searching for."
posted: 11/10/2006 9:46 AM EST
Dan asks: Dear Anonymous! Next time you are checking your source for all the wonderful things that God did and does, see if you can find out why he made about 7 billion humans and none of them are perfect. You would think he would make fewer of us and eliminate some of the most glaring flaws.
It doesn't make any sense to create a species and give them logical thought processes, and then make a belief in mystical supernatural events, key, to a comfortable survival in this world and for a smooth passage into the next.
Dano (My ancestors were just simple cavemen who worshiped the God of the hunt "Oorrg")
If your name is not in the lambs book of life, that means you didn't accept/receive Jesus into your heart, you are not SAVED. We are saved by grace, not by good works.
I pray that Jesus opens your eyes, and ears to the TRUTH. JESUS IS THE TRUTH, THE LIFE AND THE WAY. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. There is only one mediator between God and man and it is Jesus Christ.
I pray for your salvation.
Jesus is calling you.
Damn, I forgot to get call waiting!
Damn! If I'd have known, I'd have asked him to pick up a pepperoni and black olive pizza on his way over.
I find it odd that your church would ask you to lead a ministry and then ask you to leave because you expressed a desire to work elsewhere. Sounds like a miscommunication somewhere to me. Am I missing something? You should have went over the deacon's head to the Pastor who is usually in charge of the ministries of the church.
Anyway, you'll do ok here as long as you express a strong dislike towards evangelicals.
I think the main point has been missed : if there is a true loving God, would He put someone through such experiences and demand devotion?
What about the saying that you will see Christ in His Church? When you don't, the answer is "christians are also human and flawed". So, heads you win, tails I lose.
Ask yourself why you belief what you believe. Is it because you read the Bible and the answer is so obvious? Even Jesus never really clarified his own Ministry. How did you come to believe? Someone approached you and took one verse here and another verse there, stitched it all for you to make a nice theory about Christ's sole purpose was to die on the Cross for you. The original text of Gospel of Mark did not even have a resurrection story.
Ah! But you will say that God will only reveal the truth to those who believe. So, which is it? Is the Bible clear or is it esoteric knowledge?
So, after sending his Son (which happen to be himself(?)), he allowed other religions to flourish where their aim is to please God too. But they will burn in hell.
Here's the piece de resistance : He is a loving God but if during the 60 or 70 odds years on earth, you do not accept Christ, you will burn in hell for a zillion years and some. And justice for all.....
If it were not for Constantine making it the official religion of Rome it would have faded away just like all those religions that it was copied from.
I personally think that when you die, you go to a great big CICi's in the sky, and are met at the door by one of the CNN anchor women, who will give you 3 wishes (Makes more sense than the Jesus story)!
Dan (uh huh, uh huh)
The same way you find out there are no fairies, no unicorns, no bogeyman, dragons, Santa and his elves, and none of the myriad of goblins, ghosts, and other fancifully fantasized spirits and sprites that people once believed were real. When a person realizes there is just as much evidence that any of these other magical beings exist as a god, we realize that no god exists either. A god has as much evidence of existing as all these other things that were once believed to be real.
I cannot prove there are no dragons or unicorns out there, and I cannot prove there is no god, but if I were to simply accept there is a god because I cannot prove it doesn't exist, then I should believe in all these other magical entities as well.
Get it?
Here's another thing. You have never called upon God sincerly and thats why you don't know Him. If you had the bottle to do that you'd really know!
All you are doing from what I am reading is slating Christians, the Bible etc. Why do you feel the need to do that? Why are you so bitter?
You act like you want to show people the truth. How do you know what the truth is? All you have are opinions and expreience, but no evidence, or no truth. Or maybe you can prove we all came from a rock that came about by chance, is that it? thats pretty flmisy if you as me! How can you even go any where near claiming to be open minded or real.
"How do you find out that there is no God?"
.:webmaster:. wrote:
"The same way ......"
posted: 11/18/2006 12:16 PM EST
Dano observes:
Webmaster! See what you did!! You woke the "Sleeping Giant" that dwells inside the cranium of this particular Anonymous?
Dan (Looking for a nice picture of Jesus on velvet that would look good on my bedroom wall)
Are you the same "Anonymous" who just posted in "Satan is blinding you to the truth" thread? The buffoonery looks familiar, that's why I ask. Nonetheless, here is the same response I gave that person:
"Anon---'real quick lesson for ya: Firstly, no one, including "science", is saying that "God" is disproven. What science and the Atheist/Agnostic position is saying, is that "God" is unproven. Please learn the difference between the two. Anon, "God" can't be "disproven", absolutely, any more than the Great Pumpkin can be "disproven", absolutely. Maybe there is a Divine pumpkin patch 2 million light-years away on planet Squash, and the Great Pumpkin lives there. It's not bloody likely, however, "science" can't say for certain that it's not true. So wha'da ya think?...does the Great Pumkin "exist", because we can't "prove" that the Great Pumpkin absolutely doesn't exist? Exactly, that's what I thought.
Secondly, we don't "hate" Christians---however, yes, many of us loathe Christianity, and especially the tactics used to promote it.
Thirdly, you exploit your own ignorance on the subject of the Theory, and fact, of evolution. This happens when you use such apologetic strawman arguments as the ole "people come from rocks" analogy. Look around for some unbiased definitions and explanations, and try to educate yourself before you make such absurd remarks, mm'k?"
Anyway. Yes science does prove Biblical facts and therefore God, but you are so biased that you ignore that. The science you study defends theory and then dares to add it to science books claiming it to be fact.
Obviosly you've imagined that I said you hated Christians. Where did you pull that quote from?
I said that you slated them and you do!!
Wise up to yourself. Where are you going to get unbiased definitions from?!?! As if you are unbiased in you discrimination tarring all Christians with the same brush acting like they are all out to lure you!!
I see you ignored on my statment about sincerly calling out to God. Well I guess you'll have to sincerly stay in your own ignorance.
By the way, there is no "fact of evolution" only micro evolution.
By the way. I know that Christians can hurt you, stab you in the back and force themselves in their beleif on you. That can happen outside Christian circles. Unlike you, obviously. I choose to get over it!
Well, that was the bias of the "Big Bang theory"
Thats where I got that from. It's sort of an Atheist bias.
Okay, fine.... so, if you are a different "Anonymous", I would've thought you might've been able to figure out that my response wouldn't necessarily apply on every single point of your post. I'm sorry for extending you that credit. BTW, adopting a pseudonym by hitting the "other" button, would be helpful. As you may have noticed, there's a gazillion "Anonymous" posters here.
Now:
Anyway. Yes science does prove Biblical facts and therefore God, but you are so biased that you ignore that.
Please tell us about the "science" in the Genesis creation story. Yes, tell us, in concise language, how "creation" is testable, and falsifiable. Explain the "science" in a "firmament", and in "talking snakes". Tell us what is "scientific" about talking vegetation. Mind you--please don't misunderstand this request---please don't continue to "bash holes" in the theory of evolution by saying it's "only" a theory. This will not make creationism..i.e.."magic" true, by default. Again, tell us about the "science" in the bible. Waiting.
The science you study defends theory and then dares to add it to science books claiming it to be fact.
The science that "I" study? What other "science" is there? This is the same science that says that gravity is "only a theory", right? Yes, so then Anon---you'd be willing to find a tall building(at least 8 stories) and take a leap of "faith", that gravity is "only a theory", right?(please have someone record it, if you do. lol)
Obviosly you've imagined that I said you hated Christians. Where did you pull that quote from?
I said that you slated them and you do!!
Um, for the second time---I thought you were one and the same "Anonymous" who did in fact write, that we "hate Christians". So that's where I "pulled that quote" from. It doesn't apply to you...do you U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D now?
Wise up to yourself. Where are you going to get unbiased definitions from?!?! As if you are unbiased in you discrimination tarring all Christians with the same brush acting like they are all out to lure you!!
Wise up to myself? Oh, you must mean--ignore the non-evidence of a God, and believe on "Faith". No thanks. However, I'll make a deal with you---if your biblegod makes himself known to me in precisely the same fashion as he allegedly made himself known to the 12, and to "hundreds" of other "eye witnesses" as described in your Holy "science" book, I promise---I will follow God's plan, even if I HATE it.
I see you ignored on my statment about sincerly calling out to God. Well I guess you'll have to sincerly stay in your own ignorance.
Yup--I ignored it. That's because if I told you that I/we already tried that approach, add nauseum.....that you, like all fundies, will likely respond with an "excuse" for why "God" didn't, uh, "answer". So let's hear it---why do you suppose "God" didn't respond? Do tell.
By the way, there is no "fact of evolution" only micro evolution.
Bt the way----WRONG. Evolution, on both levels, is both theory, AND fact. Just like atomic theory is both theory AND fact. Creationism is neither. And anyway---even IF evolution is complete bunk---SO WHAT?...WHAT, then? WHAT? Your "default" argument is fallacious. Try again.
And you've concluded there is a god based on your own limited logic. So I guess we are even.
Here's another thing. You have never called upon God sincerly and thats why you don't know Him. If you had the bottle to do that you'd really know!
You arrogant drooler. You have no idea what I or anyone else has done or gone through in our lives. When you grow up enough to have a real discussion, come back. Until then, go to school and do your homework.
All you are doing from what I am reading is slating Christians, the Bible etc. Why do you feel the need to do that? Why are you so bitter?
Read our testimonies you ignorant parrot.
Jebus Effing Chrust -- how many of these brain dead jerks are going to come here and anonymously post exactly the same mindless shit? Can't any of them come up with something new? Can't any of them actually read more than a single post on the site? It's Effing monotonous.
Sorry, I just get tired of these idiots sometimes.
No, we magically rose up out of dirt. Isn't that what you believe.
thats pretty flmisy if you as me!
Did a single person as(k) you your opinion? The answer is no.
How can you even go any where near claiming to be open minded or real.
Are you proposing that you are the example of the best pattern of open-mindedness for all mankind?
For me science really proves how much we don't know, and we only do know very little. Like you I'd like to know about the things I don't understand and we would not seek to persue those things.
I certainly don't understand God, nor do I understand how I beleive He sreated the Earth.
Without God this Earth tells me I'm not valued, unaceptted and only going into the dust. I'd rather take the risk of follow Christ with there being a glimmer of hope to something better than this life, than accept only the things that a man will tell me, or things I can understand with my mind.
I don't honestly know why God did not answer you. But, I do beleive that He did if you sincerly called out to Him. I know that does not sound logical, but I'm am talking a about a God who I beleive defies logic.
You know I don't want to persuade any of you to follow God, because I can't, nor could I win an argument with all of you who are Far more intelligent than you are, but even then the apostle Paul, who was more intelligent than most could not persuade anyone for that matter.
If you bare with me though I'll tell you something of my life. I'm not a popular person. There allot of people who don't like me who are Christians and non Christians.
All though my life and even today I get bullied and isolated by Christians and non Christians. I was brought up Roman Catholic, but I also went to most other Protestant churches. I've seem so called Christians try to destroy my family, recently I've had Christians treaten to beat me up even though I was helping them. I've been thrown out of missonary organisations and told I was never called of God. I've been made look a fool infront of Christians because I am not fully versed in Bible scripture regrgatation.
Ok, I sound like I am diggressing, but bare with my bad grammar spelling etc, please.
I know we all have hard lives to an extent and my life does not merit sympathy, or being felt sorry for. From the age of three I was isolated and bullied. I wasn't good at socialising and was often on my own, only ever wanted one true friend and I used to beg God for one, but I never got one till I was about 17.
I was too shy even to annoy the teacher with asking to use the bathroom and would even end up soiling myself. I could only bring my self to drink achohol two times and the second time when I was tipsy I felt a false happyness and I hated that. I couldn't understand why people didn't like me because I was a nice person and would try to look out for people who were also isolated. I tried once to put a mask on and act different but I couldn't keep it up because it felt wrong. I tried horoscopes, but my life really started to plumit becuase I found allot of the things happening in horoscope descriptions where happening to me. I was a piscean.
I have to say though When ever I did call out to God, He did answer me, but not in a way I expected, and also some times I failed to listen and ignored His reply cos I didn't like it.
An example of when I called on God to help me once was when I was about 16. I was getting badly bullied and constantly riciculed at school and on a night I really called out to God. I was hoping that I'd get to see Him or something. There was no instant relpy, but I decided to beleive that something was happening. Well the next day I went into school, still with people mocking and poking at me, but I had a great feelin of joy and peace that I could not understand and a large grin on my face. People asked me why I was so happy and I didn't know who to tell them. Then in school soon after we where studying Marks gospel, and was really thrilled at what was being said and it was really a revelation to me that I had not expreinced on a Sunday.
Since then, no the bullying did not stop, but got worse, but I knew I had God, so then I started to pray for the people bullying me. I no longer misunderstood what was wrong with me but I could see that they wanted acceptance and so did things they didn't want just to fit in, then I found that the people who were hurting me, now weren't, but I genunley cared for them.
Since then, I have liad hands on a person and seen them totally healed from seroius depression in an instant. I've seen people get out of wheel chairs that couldn't walk. I've prayed for people and seen God heal them of cancer. I've also been a part of miracles were God helped me with my missionary work. I've also seen demons many times and with other people.
I've also seen many false preachers and warned people about them and prayed for God to help them get right. But this isn't about what I did, but what God is doing. I'm just following Him. He has met my need and much more
I can only really point out what I beleive. Now I have peace that I never had. I'm certainly not perfect, but I know God does not reject, or condem me. Thats not what He is about.
I've not found Him though through people persuading me, condemming me, or tellin me what my conscience should be.
You know calling out to God with all your being will merit an answer, just not how we would like it. If God did not answer what you prayed, it's not a reason to give up, because then it's not faith, but when you do really trust Him He won't let you slip from the palm of His hand. Maybe you'll have a terrible life, but the very fact you acknowledged Him with a sincere heart and gave Him your life then no matter even if you turn from Him, He will not turn away from you.
I really will be praying for you all. I am sure all of you are sincere people who really did try Him, or got caught up in trusting "church" people, and those. I don't mind the critism.
Here's my email. garethfj@hotmail.com
There are many so called Christians that may not go to heaven because they never knew God or called out to Him, but God knwos that you did and that can justify you just like it did the theif on the cross. I do care by the way. When I first came to this site I was upset and felt like arguing, but now I see that you people are not really trying to mock Christians, but want truth. You will find it, but it's not for me to speculate any further. take care.
Gareth Rogers
the sermon didnt really settle with me because i felt that they wanted people to have no say about anything..that people should just follow everything that comes from them, since they are given the authority from god. but ive seen pastors in the past who weren't really right and i doubt if i am supposed to follow them blindly.
First off you say if you will just call out to god, I do not believe that phrase is in the Bible because Jesus supposedly said Matt. 6:6 Why call out to God, or pray when he already knows what you have need of." Although I'm not a proponent of Jesus, what I'm trying to say is you're just parroting something you've heard other parrots say and it's sounds wise, safe and solid to you.
Now please, you say you've seen miracles performed before your eyes, like someone suddenly become undepressed or someone stricken to a wheelchair walk, that would hardly pose as a miracle to most of us here.
Why would a God journey out of his way to heal a depressed person or someone in a wheelchair which anyone can pose to be crippled, when there's people especially children all over the world in much much much much much much more desperate need, from starvation, diseases, murder, rape, than someone thats depressed when we have doctors that can perscribe medication for depression.
What we are looking for is Intellectual Honesty from people, this being totally honest with yourself, without the desire for apologetics and scripture gymnastics to make your belief in a God to appear real to you. Do you get this???
How come we've never heard of a case from God healing someone with a missing limb or finger, could it be that God was over at Africa healing the sick and starving childen, during this time? Not Hardly!!!
You see Gareth, the only reason and (only reason) that you think there exists a God, is because you've been told by another human being that there is a God and there is a book that also says that there is a God.
But the book was written by men about a God, but it was not written by a God.
Again if you will be totally honest with yourself and realize that you've been taken to the cleaners by an ancient book, which cannot substantiate itself, nor has it any part of it ever been proven to be true. The Bible is just as valid as the Qu'ran and vise-versa, because they were written by humans, not by any god.
Since you say you realize you're parroting verses and scripture, this may be one of the first steps to realizing that you've been had.
Had you never heard of the word "God" then you would not know to parrot the word "God."
You're just goose-stepping with all the other fundies parroting heard scripture and religious phrases which have absolutely no meaning except to make you appear to look santimonious and pious.
Intellectual Honesty is the key to realization and truth within, instead of looking to outside sources to make you look and appear to be a disciple of Jesus.
Believe me Gareth, most of us here have done the very same thing as you're doing, for many years, but we now know by being honest with ourselves, we now know it was all bunk and we were just trying to fool ourselves and others.
We now appear to be mean and vicious to christians, but I tell you most of us are not, most of us non-christians are now more sincere and compassionate than we ever was before we were a self-righteous christian trying to make people think we're something that we were not and it cannot be achieved.
If being a Christian was easily to be achieved, there would not be any need for volumes of books describing how to be a Christian, there would not be a need to have churches built on every corner with different denominations, there would not be a need to have preachers called by a God to tell people how to become a Christian, there would not be a need to have revivals, if once saved always saved, there would no longer be a need to attend a church, the only reason people attend church is to check in and make a showing, they're all there to show face and mimicking the disciples and parroting scripture trying to put on the best poker face.
If none of this makes any sense to you Gareth, then I'm afraid theres no hope for you ever living in reality. Reality is the only place a God can exist, not in man made religions, God dwells within, it's your God and no one elses, we are the creator of our own Gods, we all know right from wrong, we do not need outside sources to tell us how to live. We are the God of ourselves, it's called Intellectual Honesty, the purest form of God, it's the only God we have.
I'd rather take care of more than just the people who I know. I have a strong desire to help people that I did not used to have, because of reading the Bible. But's ok I don't expect you to beleive me about anything supernatural because you aren't open to the possibility of it.
God's grace has helped me through many hard times, not religion, or for that matter people. I have never had to receive councelling, or take the drugs many people. For all I have experienced and seen. I must be a completely insane nutcase, but at the same time have many many non Christian friends whom I love and respect. So many Christian who I know, used to be drug addicts, alcoholics etc, are now serving God and don't have thise problems because of God. If you want I can get you in conatct with them. I personally don't think that explaining everything as being scientific makes it valid. It's easy to give explainations to everything supernatural and to say I have different syndromes, but you equally haven't been through my experiences, just as I haven't been through yours. I've seen false healers at work, ie on the God channel, and I've seen false healings in reality and exposed them, but I have definately seen and KNOW people who the doctor said would be crippled for life, been prayed for and then moments later walk and the doctors not able to understand, yet they havr
e the evidence to prove that the person was in a really bad state. Yes science is the exploration of what we don't know, but you don't know if science is capable of explaining everything, so thats a risk you'll have to take. I am totally open to science and enjoy studying it.
then we have no further need for hospitals or clinics or doctors for that matter, since according to you "Gareth" there is no stronger healing power than prayer or laying of hands.
I'm of the opinion that you're under the influence of strong delusion and I am appalled and infuriated that you have allowed youself to become a victim of fraud, when in all "reality" there are children in different parts of the world suffering from multiple complications and you're setting over here on your comfortable fat ass thanking a God for healing someone that "you" know.
I have no further respect for you and your " delusional kind" and you have no business commenting any further on this websight.
After close scrutiny of your comments you're no different than the thousands of brainwashed fundies that believe in the same mental fantasy.
I cannot imagine kissing a Bible God's ass, when the very same God allows little children to suffer in any other parts of the world except the one's that you "happen to know" he has taken special attention to.
You do need counseling, not from a preacher either, because you're totally and completely mentally insane, just like all the rest of you brainwashed jackasses!
When Christians see that reality contradicts what they believe, they reject reality.
In the end Gareth, you're just the typical brainwashed christian idiot, nothing different nor special about you!
Yep, that would be the case for many.
Anony @ 11/18/2006 1:22 PM: "How do you know what the truth is?"
Uh... continuously applying personal experience(s) to mentally modelled ideals and constructs.
Anony @ 11/18/2006 1:22 PM: "All you have are opinions and expreience, but no evidence, or no truth."
Actually, you're right - almost. We have experiences, we share them through symbollic expression with others. If the ideal/construct that is shared can be applied and useful to others, then... they may well continue to use the modelled contruct to further investigate the nature of reality. The search for "truth", resides in the natural reality, is it not?
Anony @ 11/18/2006 1:22 PM: "Or maybe you can prove we all came from a rock that came about by chance, is that it?"
Perhaps, we must choose at points in our lives, which constructs are more useful in searching for "truth', than others. Some constructs appear to be more useful than others, when searching our natural reality.
Do you know the difference between a construct and an ideal?
Ideal: "conforming to an ultimate standard of perfection or excellence; embodying an ideal
the idea of something that is perfect;..."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
An "ideal", is projecting what one "wants" reality to become.
Construct: "concept: an abstract or general idea inferred or derived from specific instances"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
A construct is the measure/linking of natural elements, using some form of symbollic expression.
Many people are fine living their lives, in the search for a "construct", which brings them closer to natural reality. One could claim, that such an adventure is an "ideal" state, I suppose, but it's the search for what is in front of us, not for what we "want" to be in front of us.
Anonymous, do you find that "ideals", lead your life as opposed to constructs? It's okay, most young adults, by and far, seek "idealistic" ventures - perfectionists, ones who believe they can change the world into a "perfect" state. Many adults do as well, but... it lapses for many, with time and experience, and it does come from experience and observation of "change".
Ideals, are funny variants... they are typically created with a rigid framework, and "all" of life, and reality, is stuffed into that box, and measured accordingly. Many try and "force" reality, inside of an "ideal" box, but... one may as well, try to stop the ebb of an oncoming tide.
Constructs are different, they are more the transparency by which one overlays onto reality, in order to see patterns, and appreciate what "is", not... what should be.
Your comment on the organic/biolife coming from a rock, is a matter of knowing which process to use, in order to seek that natural truth. Do you believe, one will have a better probability using an "ideal", or a "construct", to answer your question of biogenesis?
Again, an "ideal", many times is used by some, to "force" reality to become what they wish... and then, some, just choose to accept reality, and try and understand it based on a non-perfect construct. If you were to suggest that the construct "itself" is an "ideal" concept, I would concede the fact. But... I would suggest that the ideal behind a construct is to not "force" reality to be "more" than it is - and that is what many religions do.
You've done great trying to figure out how to formulate a question. Have you tried to discern the best way to derive an "answer", honestly?
Anony @ 11/18/2006 1:22 PM: "...thats pretty flmisy if you as me! How can you even go any where near claiming to be open minded or real."
Seeking reality, requires one to be open-minded, that is diametrically opposed to the idealists point of view - typically. "Truth" is what you experience... constructs, are how you measure your experiences... ideals, are what you wished your experiences were, or how they should have been - and how they should be applied to everyone else in the universe.
Many choose to measure their experiences by "ideals", instead of constructs. What organizations teach "ideals", relentlessly?
And, just a side note, "ideals" have no flexibility, to allow "truth" to be found, an ideal is a personal "truth", being applied universally - someone who has no need to seek "truth" any further. Constructs, are flexible, and can "absorb" ideals when/if they support tenets of natural reality.
Currently, no matter how mature my construct is, it has not been able to "absorb" the ideal of a transcendent being, in a perfect state.
If you have information, by which I can apply to our natural reality, so that I may make the "connection", please, by all means... provide something.
"I am appalled and infuriated that you have allowed youself to become a victim of fraud, when in all "reality" there are children in different parts of the world suffering from multiple complications and you're setting over here on your comfortable fat ass thanking a God for healing someone that "you" know."
Well, basically in reply to that comment. No, I'm not fat. I've twice Irish champion at cycling, I've been a missionary in the Ukraine and have worked VERY hard to help people in need of comfort and food. The person God healed from depression. Asked me to help her and I offered prayer. I had neevr met her in my life, and the experience she told that she had was amazing and that she was filled with joy and felt a huge weight lift from her.
I'm not trying to boast, but I try to devote my life to helping and serving other people. I don't force God on ANY person. That is their choice. I didn't come and write here to force God on you either. Some people, you only have to say the word "Jesus" to and they loose the plot. Wasn't really expecting this to happen here, or to be so insulted. It's not very grown up. You arel now deciding to judge me with insults that are not even constructive or help. You have not even tried to rask me my experience or find out more about me. I even gave out my email address incase anyone wanted to really know about me. Thats fair enough.
Block me from this site if you want, but why. I'm just being honest and tellin you my experiences. You people are calling me an insane idiot. If you are so keen, then send me an email with your address and give me a call and I'll either meet with you, or talk to you. You can test me to see if I really am crazy. Take me to a physcologist too. By the way. I think hospitals are a good thing, I'm applying for a job in A&E. Why? because I want to help.
You are more than welcome to meet with people I know and ask them their experiences also. Also check and see if they are insance also.
Also can any of you tell me what happened when you did call out to God. Tell me your experience, non experience. I'd be interested to hear. Not experiences of when other Christians hurting you (thats life). I'd be genuinley interested. Or does every one really hate me now, or something?
You have pretty much run the course now. Every Christian that comes here thinking they have that "Special something" that will make us ex Christians see the light, do approximately the same thing that you have. If you will spend a year or so reading here, you will see a pattern. They all stumble upon this site accidentally. They are appalled at what they read here. They accuse us of being angry. They tell us about how Jesus has changed their lives. They tell us they will pray for us. They pull the Pascal's Wager thing, on us,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
They eventually act surprised when we don't buy any of their Christian crap, and when we infer that they are a few fries short of a happy mea,they threaten to leave and never come back, but they do come back, because deep down they really don't believe the silly, illogical, bronze age, mythological, bullshit either, and are looking for the truth.
There is no nicer way to say it Gareth, GROW UP!!
Dano (Intellectual integrity is better than embracing a cult)
Yes, the same thing that happened to you. NOTHING. The difference, Gareth, is that you are looking for the slightest indirect occurance; the slightest "sign"; the slightest improbable coincidence, as a "hit", therefore deeming it as an "answer", all because of your subjective "need" to validate your "want" for there to be a "God".
'Been there; done that. Think about intellectual honesty, Gareth. We need objective evidence, please.
Then you pray for a girl battling depression, instead of offering her to see medical attention, you offer her the Jesus pill, do you know that most people are very vunerable and naive during this time? Most likely anyone offering prayer at that time would have said sure, instead of saying why don't you mind your own business.
If you're so sure that your praying is an instant cure for depression, why not be Christ-like and stand in front of the psychologist's offices and cure them before they go in, and save alot of people the extra time and money, this would be a very admirable thing to do.
Not only that, but you would soon be famous and you could put an end to the psychology profession.
If you think hospitals are a good thing, I see no further use in having them now, after I've heard the miracles that you have personally witnessed.
I now believe that a person such as you with Christ-like powers, and have witnessed miracles first hand are not using their full potentual to go forth and heal the world from starvation and suffering.
I think you need to pray and ask Jesus were you would be best placed in this world so that people could receive your power of healing and physical comfort.
If you're in the Ukraine, I think your work would be put to better use in Africa, perhaps in the Sudan or Ethiopia.
After all, it's our works and deeds that we are all judged and saved.
Remember Jesus fed 5000 with two fishes and two loaves, I'm sure you could do say 2000 or so, all you need is a mustard seed of faith.
We all will be vehemently praying for you Gareth, for God to send an angel or a blessing your way, a sign for which you may serve Jesus to your full potential, after all, your only purpose and goal in life is to burst those pearly gates wide open, once you're in, you're in!
People have been seeing and experiencing miracles for thousands of years, but no one yet, has been able to produce evidence for one.
With God all things are possible!
To God, nothing is new under the Sun, so nothing has changed in over 2000 years, so God will provide.
If this is what I sincerely believed then, this is just what I would do. I would walk in Jesus's foot steps and mimick and repeat the very same things that Jesus did.
If no miracles present themselves to you, then you'll just be out of your time and effort.
But it would be worth a try, that is if, you are a true believer in what you say you believe.
Jesus said, "Many will honor me with their lips, but their hearts are not with them."
God still loves you and He died so YOU would not perish.
No, you were never a Chirstian, you never knew Christ, so don't even call yourself one. You never knew Him.
And also a real ex Christian and some I've actually know one who did know Chirst, but decided it was too hard to be perfect. God helped me minister to Him. Again I'd never met him before. He was driving me home in his taxi. God used me to tell him, that it was Christ in him who was perfect, not the old man and therefore he was justified even though the old man still sinned in the flesh.
You never knew Christ, or did you!?!
Until you can provide evidence for one single thing you say, yes, hopefully you'll be scrubbed---much in the same way you'd be scrubbed if you barged in on an AA forum and started endorsing Godweiser beer. Use your head---THINK about where you are.
God still loves you and He died so YOU would not perish.
If "He" died(Jesus), then "He" is not living; if "He" is not living, then for all I know, "He" was just a mortal fanatic who is now dead as a door-nail and exists nowhere. On the other hand, if you insist that "He" is still alive, then we can reasonably conclude that "He" did NOT die, in which case, he made no such "sacrifice for me", whatsoever----thus, I owe "Him" jack-shit. (This is speaking conceptually, of course, because so far--that's the only place Jesus exists. If you'd like to refute this, think about the implications you'll be setting up for yourself in further discussions.)
No, you were never a Chirstian, you never knew Christ, so don't even call yourself one.
Gareth, please go to your local battered women support group, and try to tell those women who have escaped the clutches of their abusive husbands, that they were "never really a True™ wife"---yes, tell them they can't call themselves ex-wives. I'd love to see the reaction you get. lol.
And also a real ex Christian and some I've actually know one who did know Chirst, but decided it was too hard to be perfect. God helped me minister to Him. He was driving me home in his taxi. God used me to tell him, that it was Christ in him who was perfect, not the old man and therefore he was justified even though the old man still sinned in the flesh.
Of course, if the taxi driver was a serial rapist, he wouldn't be a "sinner". On the other hand, if he drove his taxi on Sunday, he is a "sinner". Boy, who took dictation the day those commandments got chisled out?......Ray Charles?
You never knew Christ, or did you!?!
Are you asking us?...or telling us? More apologetic "answers" before the questions.
You are no longer welcome here, as you've revealed that you are merely trolling for a place to preach.
Please stop posting.
To everyone else, please don't feed the troll.
Thank you.