How study can change you (part 2)

Sent in by Zen

I am Zen who wrote my testimony November 7th 2006 (how study can change you).

I want to share a little story how physic change my faith from Christianity to Naturalist, Universalist, Pantheist, Daoist, or whatever you call it (it doesn’t matter for me).

I ever read that Albert Einstein was more or less pantheist too. Einstein ever said, “The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion.” Einstein admired Spinoza. Spinoza, as pantheist, ever said, “God and Nature, two names for the same reality.”

At high school, I studied Einstein’s Relativity. Then at University, when I began to be skeptic because of Zen (the skeptical Buddhist that disbelieves every scriptures), I wondered the Emc2 and thought it was a product of pantheistic Einstein.

A pantheist believes if God is energy (“E”) then Universe is material (“m”). Light speed (“c”) is space (distance) divided by time (second). So we can derive Emc2 into this equation: “God” times “Time” “Universe” times “Space”. I found and thought this formula by myself. And this formula has two important consequences:

1) If we believe God is eternal (unlimited time) so Universe has no borders (unlimited space).

2) If we believe God is temporary (limited time) so Universe has borders (limited space).

But I am still skeptical about this “childish” formula. Somebody please give me some ideas.

By the way, as a Zen, I had studied a lot of Buddha Dharma and I know that Buddha never answered the questions about God and Universe when people asked him.

Is God eternal or temporary? Buddha was silent.

Does Universe have borders or not? Buddha was silent.

But forget about the past. I have a strong feeling that nowadays there are many “enlightened” men and women out there. Though I am a pantheist and believe that Buddha was pantheist too, I look an atheist as a “Buddha” too, as I look Theravada as “Buddha” too. Why? Because an atheist, like a Theravada, use their brain or reason stronger than anyone in this world.

The only thing that I disagree with atheism is its cynical view on Universe. Please note I don’t hate atheists personally, I only disagree with cynical view of atheism ideologically.

I think atheism uses its mind too strong and forgets the intuition. In the contrary, extreme religions use their emotion too strong and forget the reason.

But in most of other things, I have same views with atheism. I like the logical thinking of atheism because it helps me to fight back extreme religions like fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity. Please note that I don’t hate Moslems and Christians personally. I only hate their “scary” teachings of Jihad and Crusade and their “nightmare” dreams of Darussalam (Islamic State) and Christian Nation.

Moslems or Christians like to humiliate a Daoist/Pantheist like me. They always say Dao/Pantheism is silly, backward, pagan, animism, or even heresy because they believe God (Allah/Father) creates this Universe, they never think that maybe “God is Universe” or “Dian-di shi Da-zi-ran” in Mandarin. When I explained this “childish” formula (God x Time Universe x Space) derived from Einstein’s formula (Emc2) and its consequences, I made them surprised and never underestimated me or Dao or Pantheism again.

So somebody out there, especially physic expert, please give me some ideas or opinion about my “childish” formula: God x Time Universe x Space. I will think and feel your explanation with open mind and heart.

By the way, physic experts in Indonesia usually have a religion (Islam or Christianity) so they are not my references. I never find a “pantheist” or an “atheist” physic expert to back me up. I hope Stephen Hawking read this article and give me his answer or opinion to my childish formula.

Regards,
Zen

43 comments:

Nvrgoingbk said...

Hi Zen, I love to read of your sincere reaching for the answers. I love your accent which is so evident in your writing. Understand, I do not under estimate your intelligence. On the contrary, I believe you to be very bright. I just find your accent charming.

Flattery aside, I don't know that we will ever have the answers until we pass on. I have found comfort from reading about Near Death Experiences. People around the world from every culture and religion-including athiests-have had these experiences and are forever changed by them. In nearly all of them, the lesson learned is that we are all a part of something bigger than ourselves, and we are all intricately woven together. The lesson learned is LOVE. I understand your thirst for TRUTH. It is also a thirst for HOPE that we will go on and that on the other side there awaits for us our true home. I don't know what it is or who it is or where it is, but I can say with confidence that the way to know it, or Him, or Her, or Them...the way to that higher conscienceness, the road that leads HOME is a through one road which is LOVE. Whether or not there exists anything beyond our realm is yet to be seen (or not), but we can't go wrong when we love, because, no matter what, when the coffin closes over our lifeless body we will have left that legacy for those who knew us best, and hopefully, if there is a final judge that awaits our spirit in the Great Beyond, he will say "Well done". That is the best we can do, man.

Zen said...

Nvrgoingbk wrote:

I have found comfort from reading about Near Death Experiences. People around the world from every culture and religion-including athiests-have had these experiences and are forever changed by them. In nearly all of them, the lesson learned is that we are all a part of something bigger than ourselves, and we are all intricately woven together. The lesson learned is LOVE.

Zen’s comment:

As Daoist/Pantheist, I certainly believe that we are all a part of something bigger than ourselves: UNIVERSE.

LOVE? As a Zen, I believe that we must LOVE all beings. You know from my previous post that I am vegetarian. Monks in Shaolin temple in Henan Province, the famous Zen temple in China, were (are?) vegetarian! So am I. Vegetarian has natural/biological reason (we are similar with apes/herbivores), health reason (prevents degenerative diseases), and ethical reason (don’t violate to the WEAK).

I believe animals are our brothers and sisters, based on evolution theory. They have brain and heart too like us. Their lives are woven with our lives. “I don’t eat my brothers and sisters” (George Bernard Shaw). But animals are WEAK because they can’t talk like human, they can only scream and cry when we kill them for our food. Just think if extremists or terrorists kill our babies we LOVE. Our WEAK babies can only scream and cry in front of us. Horrible! I believe someday civilization means vegetarian!

I want animals live free and happy in the nature (not in the stall or house or circus). I like to be such a “bodhisatva” (the liberal one, the compassionate one, the highest goal of Mahayana) who make all beings FREE (from any cult/ religion/ oppression) and HAPPY (in this temporary LIFE). Sorry if I am too “Buddhist” in thinking. Please note that I don’t want to convert anyone to any religion because I like to be such an “arahat” (the independent one, the logical one, the highest goal of Theravada). I hate to be a follower and I hate to have followers (just read my previous post). I want all beings independent and use their brain.

All beings appreciate LIFE, and try to avoid DEATH (the survival of the fittest?). Near Death Experience? I know it but it is not the answer of my question about God and Universe. God x Time is equal to Universe x Space. This puzzle is the center faith of Pantheism/Dao. That’s why I always think of it for years and HOPE there is a physic expert to support me.

Lorena said...

Hi Zen,

I, too, am pantheistic, but I am agnostic. That is, I have a vague notion that there is a uniting energy out there from which we all come. But I make no claims of knowing anything and believe that others should believe whatever they wish to.

Like you, I studied physics in university but I don't have an answer to your question.

I believe, however, that if you read the writings of modern pantheists such as Wayne Dyer or Deepak Chopra, you may find the answer you are looking for. I also recommend watching the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know," a quantum-physics explanation to life-giving energy which many call God.

Good luck in your search.

Zen said...

Dear Lorena

I appreciate your advice but I think I don’t believe Deepak Chopra’s argument about Intelligent Designer in creation-evolution controversy and I don’t believe meditation like Wayne Dyer.

Like a Zen Master ever said: Just sitting and doing nothing will not make you a Buddha! So what do I do? I just kick the greed and the fear out of my brain and heart and then fill them with a lot of jokes about everything. I love to make people smile with my jokes (some of them think over my jokes and find a wisdom in it). A life spent in smile is better than a life spent in glum.

Please note that I don’t underestimate Deepak Chopra or Wayne Dyer. Like you said, others should believe whatever they wish to believe. I never watch the movie that you’ve told me, it is not easy to find it in Indonesia, but I will try. Thank you anyway.

UnAwakenOne said...

Zen, I appreciate your kind sincere words for the benefit of everyone here. Please continue to share more with us. If you want, you can contribute to my blog too :) (http://buddha-inside.blogspot.com)


"Is God eternal or temporary? Buddha was silent.

Does Universe have borders or not? Buddha was silent."


I saw this phrases quite alot, and there are many interpretations about it, christians say that Buddha don't want to admit that God existed, etc. without understanding the full context of the story.

Buddha remained silent because it is for us to practice the teachings and find out for ourselves. Buddha's answers contradict themselves at times due to the different audiences' spiritual tendencies as well as level of realisation. No one medicine cure all illnesses, Buddha was like a doctor prescibing the right medicine for each person.

For this context, the person who asked the questions were more interested in fulfilling the never ending thirst of the ego for knowledge, rather than true liberation from suffering, true happiness. He might have asked even more if Buddha did answer his initial questions. (eg. is there life on the moon? is there life on Mars? Why is the sky so high? *kidding*) Hence the Buddha kept quiet, instead of fueling more questions by answering him.

On the contrary, there are occasions when the Buddha did answer questions about how earth was formed, how humans on earth began, and gradually evolved. - the so-called Buddhist version of genesis.

This lesson is for us too, ever more interested in the external knowledge and intellectual satisfaction than our inner Truth. No amount if knowledge can bring us true happiness if there is no actual application of the Dharma. Because whatever we read and learnt from knowledge is always absorbed with the veil of ego, while all suffering started from the ignorance of ego, the false sense of self.

Zen said...

Dear UnAwakenOne,

I appreciate your invitation to your blog. But I am a “Zen” & “Dao” one, or in modern term is “skeptical” & “natural” one. I think I will not fit in it.

Suffering? Without suffering, how can we know happiness? Suffering-Happiness is Yin-Yang, regarding of my Dao/Naturalist point of view.

Buddhist version of Genesis? I am skeptical with any Buddhist sutras, regarding of my Zen/Skeptic point of view. Did Buddha write the book himself? Their followers did. Some false some true, like Christian holy books. You can call me a fool because I only believe in my conscience, my inner truth, like my father did. My conscience will judge holy books; determine their fault and their truth.

Application of Dharma? Gong-fu-zi (Confucius) did it with his simple “Golden Rule”. Gong-fu-zi is a Great Dao Master for me.

Ego? Self? If I don’t have a self or an ego, how do you know my existence or my life in this temporary earth? I will not deny my ego like hypocrites or religionists try to deny their egos.

I want to listen to scientists, especially physic experts, about UNIVERSE. The thirst of science knowledge, especially the COSMIC SCIENCE, is the thirst of Dharma/Truth for me.

Sorry, if you feel I am too harsh to you. I don’t mean to be harsh; I am just a simple, honest, and straightforward man.

Regards,

Zen

beepbeepitsme said...

RE: "The only thing that I disagree with atheism is its cynical view on Universe. Please note I don’t hate atheists personally, I only disagree with cynical view of atheism ideologically."

"Atheism" doesn't have a worldview, it is simply a lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods.

Anything else that people read into "atheism" is exactly that. Something they assume.

The word atheist, for example, doesn't describe what someone believes in, it simply desribes what they DON'T believe in.

Zen said...

Dear beepbeepitsme,

Sorry if my English was bad enough. As far as I know, atheism is an ideology and atheist is a person.

A=No. Thei /Theo (Greek)=Dei/Deo (Roman) = Devi/Deva (India) = Dewi/Dewo (Java) = Goddess/God (English).
Atheism is an ideology that does not believe there is God.
Atheist is a person that does not believe there is God. Am I right?

“Atheism doesn't have a worldview”. Well, I ever read the article of atheism long ago, I forget the author’s name (of course he/she is not you), he/she said that “universe is eternal”. But anyway, I appreciate your view. A human is unique. And you are unique too. Thank you anyway. Peace.

UnAwakenOne said...

Hi Zen,

I can understand your words that there's much common ground in our views.

Suffering is indeed a fact of life, and without it, without understand the true nature of it, there's no way to truly understand or attain happiness. There is no 'denial' of suffering, but an unconditional acceptance of it as it is how life flows. How you view suffering is your call, not mine - and I'm perfectly happy with that.

I mentioned the Buddhist version of genesis as a matter of interest relating to your quote about Buddha keeping silent to share more of what I know, and relating it to the fact that the Buddha had answered questions about the world, even the structure of the universe depending on the audience's needs. I'm not concerned whether the genesis is true or not, as my priority is, in your words - conscience. I open to Buddha's words, Jesus Christ or scientists words with the same open mindedness, and seek to observe their truths in my own experiences, rather than believe whatever I'm told. The scientific spirit of open-minded experimental observation is what Buddhist teaching is about. How often we simply believe what the scientists say as the truth? How often does it happen that new discoveries prove old theories wrong? Blind faith in all sense is off balance. What is the difference between blind scepticism? To me, for Truth, there is no self-righteousness, dogma or forced blind faith here. There is nothing to believe, nothing to protect - life is what is, see for yourself.

Our views of ego might have some common grounds too, I do not deny my ego either. Ego isn't something I want to destroy. "Suffering arises from ignorance of the false sense of ego" This means, we do not understand the true nature of our ego, hence we suffer. it is as if we don't know how to function a very useful device and uses it to hurt ourselves. Instead of blaming on the device, we simply learn how to use it and solve the problem. I wish to encounter it with understanding, how it is, how beautiful it works perfectly well like everything in nature. Same as you, I have a thirst for knowledge for many things. However, there is a limit to our intellectual rational logic which is conditioned by our social, cultural, educational, family backgrounds, underlying beliefs, etc. With these conditions, it is seeing the world with colored glasses, we can't see the world as it is. As a result, our thoughts and views about the things we learn are just 1 or few perspectives filtered by these conditions and not a true total view the whole truth. That's why I wish to discipline and harness the power of my mind to be free from these limiting conditions, take off the colored glasses and truly see the world as it is. We are a piece of the universe that we thirst to learn more about, going inwards and learning our true nature is my chosen route to learning about the universe.

I don't find your words harsh at all, you're perfectly fine as you are, like everything in nature. Whatever I perceive of you is a reflection of me.

Zen said...

Dear UnAwakenOne,

Yes, I think there's much common ground in our views. I love to have a friend like you.

Dear All,

I had left all religions and sometimes I feel I am alone, especially in Indonesia where people always have religions, but my conscience always tells me: don’t give up!

When people see my vegetarian life style, they call me a Buddhist (although it is not quite right).
When people ask me, ”What is your religion?” I answer, “Buddhist” just to avoid another questions if I answer, “I don’t have a religion!”
By the way, you must know that Indonesian Identity Card informs us about the religion we have. Atheism, of course, is forbidden in Indonesia.

In this large country with large Moslem and Christian people, who will know the Chinese old “sages” like Fu-xi, Shen-nong, Huang-di, the skeptical and natural ones, who built Chinese civilization by the inventions of house from clay, food from grains, medicine from herbal, and clothes from silk?

Lao-zi ever said to Gong-fu-zi, “The sages were all dead. Their bones had already become soil!” and then Lao-zi laughed out loud (LOL) and made Gong-fu-zi surprised but then Gong-fu-zi realized the meaning of life from the Lao-zi saying about that death.

We will die someday. Death is a natural thing just like life is a natural thing too. Only few people are brave enough to see the death as it is.

Heaven or hell? Reincarnation? They are speculations.
I just want to become One with this Great Universe when I die!
And I know exactly I will be, at least as soil when people cremate me as a “Buddhist” when I die.

Buddha is in Nirvana! Zen Master: Wrong!
Buddha will not reincarnate! Zen Master: Wrong!
Then Buddha will reincarnate? Zen Master: No!
Then what? Zen Master only showed his point finger up. People think that we must shut up our mouth and never talk again about the status of Buddha whether he is in Nirvana or not. But only few know that it means BUDDHA is ONE with UNIVERSE!

I have explained you the Chinese Pantheism or DAO.
I hope you enjoy it. You will never find these in the books you ever read.
It’s very simple and natural but yet it’s amazing me every time.

In the great threat of racial and religious riots in Indonesia, I find my treasure: my ancestor’s secret teaching: DAO, with the helping of ZEN.

Smile. Cheer. Laugh. Enjoy your last day. Close the door of yesterday and tomorrow. Live just for today. Right here right now.
Face the life now. Face the death tomorrow. And maybe tomorrow will never come because maybe I will die when I sleep tonight. Death is a long peaceful sleep without dream.

LIFE & DEATH! I always remember a Zen parable about a man who fell into a cliff, hanging on the roots of a tree. He saw tigers in the bottom of cliff trying to catch and eat him. He also saw rats gnaw on the roots he hanged on! But suddenly, he saw a beehive with honey flowing out. He tasted the honey with happy smile. DEATH (tigers) and ILL (rats) always threaten our LIFE every time but we must try to enjoy the LIFE (honey) fully.

At least in this LIFE, I have a happy son who always smiles and laughs in joy. Recently he always runs fast and hugs me tight every time I come home. Kiss me when I am home and kiss his mother all the time. I know he will be a happiest man someday because I always try to not poison his brain and heart with concepts of hell-heaven or devil-angel like Christianity and Islam do, right from the very start.

And I have my wife, oh I thanks a lot to the Nature that I have a beautiful wife with beautiful mind and character too. She is really a partner to me in everything: heart and brain. How lucky I am. I am in paradise. I don’t need a paradise after death.

My wife and my son both are the meaning in my life! Although I know maybe someday they will leave me or I leave them. It doesn’t matter for me because I have a full happy LIFE although I still don’t (and maybe will never) know entirely about UNIVERSE and GOD.

Oh I hate to spell GOD as “GOD” like Christian do, I like to spell GOD in Mandarin as “TIAN-DI”. TIAN means SKY and DI means EARTH.

Yes, SKY and EARTH is our truly GOD, without sky and earth how can we live in this UNIVERSE? We need oxygen that given by the sky/atmosphere and we need things that given by the earth; our food, clothes, homes, electronic equipment, vehicles etc.
We must thank to the TIAN-DI for bless and grace in our life!

But humans now are destroying the sky and earth with oil exploration, illegal logging, and meat eating causing more global warming, more holes in the ozone layer, more holes inside the earth, more earthquakes, more tsunamis, more climate chaos, more thermohaline chaos, more harsh tornados, more harsh typhoons, more harsh winter, more harsh heat wave, more El Nino, more La Nina, more famines, more thirsts, more Mc D, more mad cow, more KFC, more bird flu, more cancer, more heart attacks, more strokes, etc. This planet is full with crazy suicidal people.

Christians: Human is ruler of the earth and animals and plants! Sick! Did you ever learn biology? Humans, plants, animals, earth, and sky are ONE ecosystem!

People are polluting the sky and earth with fossil fuels, cutting forests for furniture and ranching, and slaving and killing animals for food, and never ever realize that they suicide themselves slowly.

USA, EU, Japan, China, India = petroleum suckers + Brazil, Indonesia, Congo = illegal loggers + Christians, Moslems, Jews, etc = meat eaters. The result: DOOM!

And this is my best joke: religionists want to be saved by their GOD but I want to save their GOD (read: TIAN-DI or SKY-EARTH). LOL.

If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not (Epicurus).
Live in Conscience then you will not regret when you die. (my father saying)

Zen

Lee said...

Zen,

All spiritualism aside, I really can't let you get away with the Einstein relativity equation analogy, well-meaning as you may believe.

The Equation states E = mc2, i.e. energy EQUALS Mass times the speed of light, squared...it may sound nit-picky, but it strains the analogy to state it as Emc2, with energy being multiplied times "material," as you put it...

You may want to revisit a flawed analogy, particularly when it can shape a philosophical, religious or world view.

Lee

Zen said...

Dear Lee,

Yes, i agree with you it is a flawed analogy (maybe). You know from my previous post that i am skeptical about (can't get away with) this “childish” formula. It is just to make Christians and Moslems skeptical with their faith. LOL.

But think about Space and Time! We are live in space and time!
Is Space Universe? Is Time God? Is Universe unlimited? Is God eternal?

I want you realize that most of “modern” people in this world look "God" as an abstract thing (and eternal thing) and not a concrete thing like “ancient” people.

Christians or Moslems never see that the earth is "God". I think pagans were right enough when they worshiped their Mother Earth.

Christians or Moslems never see that the sky is "God". I think ancient Christians were right enough when they said about their loving "daddy" in the sky": "Our Father in the Heaven!" But then the “modern” Christians think their “Father” always watching them every time from the Heaven, recording every mistakes, errors, sins and their Father had created Hell to punish eternally the “naughty” kids. LOL.

Christians or Moslems never see that the sun is "God". I think ancient Egyptians were quite right when they worshiped “Ra” as Sun God.

Christians or Moslems never see that the moon is “God”. I think ancient Arabs were quite right when they worshiped the moon as God (you can see today that Islam symbol is moon, instead of star!). But then “Moslem” Arabs create “Allah” who will punish everyone in the eternal Hell if they don’t do the sholat five times a day! LOL.

We live with "God(s)" but we never (or are ashamed to) realize it (them) as it is (they are). Without (these) "God(s)" (Sky, Earth, Sun, Moon, etc) we will certainly die.

Christians or Moslems still think there is "abstract" God out there rather than realize the "concrete" God out there: UNIVERSE.

How about thousands (millions? billions? unlimited?) of galaxies with their billions stars and planets? Can you imagine how big the Universe? I can't. And if you can I want to hear it from you about the size of Universe. I hope you can tell me the borders/limits of Universe. Really, I mean it. I search it for years as a pantheist. I will thank you very very much if you can explain the size of Universe.

Humans can create thousands of "abstract" God(s) as they wish and then sell the religion to others. Most of people buy the religion because they fear DEATH or wish there is LIFE after DEATH provided by “abstract” God. They can’t realize that (maybe) their “abstract” God is only their imagination. They never think that (maybe) the LIFE after DEATH (Hell? Heaven? Paradise? Rebirth? Reincarnation?) is only an imagination too. Think!

The certainty is we now live in this planet, suck oxygen, drink water, eat rice/wheat/corn, etc. We know our life is depended on Sun, Moon, Sky, Earth, etc or simply depended on UNIVERSE or NATURE or ENVIRONMENT whatever you want to call it.

Universe is our LIFE! Universe is concrete not abstract! Universe is the reality not the imagination. Think!

Does somebody out there know the size of this Universe?

Universe is very very big. Moslems say: “Allah hu Akbar” and i think, as a pantheist, Moslems are right if only they replace “Allah” with “Universe”.

Universe or Nature is the origin of every religion. But when religions were well established, they were ashamed to recognize Universe or Nature as their God and changed the concrete Universe with abstract God. It is my strong opinion as a pantheist.

When you see people fighting for "small" things like "religion", ideology, politic, economy, and whatever you can name it, you can only laugh or cry.

We are stupid people who are fighting for nothing and never realize that we are destroying our own planet, our own LIFE, simply because we have wrong views, religions, or philosophies about our LIFE and our ENVIRONMENT/NATURE. We are the next dinosaurs, DYING, vanishing from the surface of the earth, and then replaced by other beings (maybe by rats. LOL). Think!

Think that we are a part of Nature! No more or no less. And my question is simple but very important: does Universe has border/limit or not?

Forget Buddha, he refused to answer! I will search the answer from "enlightened" men and women out there. It doesn't matter for me if he/she is atheist or (pan)theist. I just want to know the answer. I will appreciate if physic experts can give some opinion with strong evidence about the universe: limited or unlimited? temporary or eternal?

Zen

Anonymous said...

Zen, the universe is infinitely large as far as the eye can see, and then some more, even infinitely more larger than what is so small that we cannot see.. Does it have an end? No one will ever know, not in present human form. Can the universe be accurately described? Not from our position in space, as humans.

How are we here? We developed from chemical reactions? We developed from a cosmic test tube, if you will, by being placed here (not placed here by a god)in this galaxy, but by a random cosmic throw of the dice, if you will, tossed out by circular expansion from a spinning glob of mass.

There was no (time) before the circular expansion, time only exists with mass expansion through space as it's being created, that is, space and time is being created now, as long as mass expansion continues.

Life will begin to develope everywhere when enough time will allow it to develope. Life also exists abondantly in other galaxies, they are posed with the same questions as we have.

We exist, because of time,(mass expansion) progressing through empty space, has allowed us (life through a chemical reaction base, a combination of oxygen, sun rays and boric acid and time) enough time to exist own our own, to form different species.

Dinosaurs formed on their own,(through time) but they got destroyed by disaster, the next set of animals (we, us) formed own our own (through the luxury of time) and we will soon be destroyed, either by oursselves or a natural disaster, then through time, another (different)set of life forms will appear, and will have the same questions as we had.

The end of time will begin when mass expansion through space has ended, then time itself will no longer go forward, neither will it go backwards, time will continue to scatter wonderously (wondering aimlessly)in no particular order, time will stand still, presumeably in random chaos.

The history of the universe can never repeat itself, it will always be different, no one can define the future. This is what the Bible writers tried to do, in order to desplay their infinite wisdom, they tried to define(prophesy)the future, no one has this ability.

There is much wisdom in what you wrote, and your questions are valid, but you're asking for answers from people that have the same perspective (position on earth) as you.

an admirer of Zen,

Anonymous said...

Correction! amino acid,

life through a chemical reaction base, a combination of oxygen, sun rays and amino acid and time) enough time to exist own our own, to form different species.

memory error, a natural human fault...lol

P.S.
Also before time started, a huge central mass existed (many light years distance across) all the chemicals necessary for all life where contained in this mass.

an admirer of Zen,

Dave8 said...

"Think that we are a part of Nature! No more or no less. And my question is simple but very important: does Universe has border/limit or not?"

Why does it matter? What question are you trying to answer, with this knowledge?

Dave8 said...

"Two distinct views exist on the meaning of time. One view is that time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence. This is the realist view, to which Isaac Newton [1] subscribed, in which time itself is something that can be measured.

A contrasting view is that time is part of the fundamental intellectual structure (together with space and number) within which we sequence events, quantify the duration of events and the intervals between them, and compare the motions of objects. In this view, time does not refer to any kind of entity that "flows", that objects "move through", or that is a "container" for events. This view is in the tradition of Gottfried Leibniz[2] and Immanuel Kant,[3][4] in which time, rather than being an objective thing to be measured, is part of the mental measuring system."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

Is Time part of the universes' cosmic fiber, or is Time an abstract "ideal", expressed with symbollic characters, used to model cosmic fiber?

The abstract mentallly modelled function "time", is part of the human domain. Stellar movement(s), are human independent and within their own particular domain.

One appears to be an organic by-product, and the other, an inorganic by-product. Are they mutually exclusive domains? Is Euclidean Space a perfect representation of the universe?

And... not that I want to get deep into physics, but time as an abstract ideal, can be sub-modelled in macro (cosmic-relativity) and micro (quantum-planck) domains. And... these two domains when mathematically modelled towards eachothers' domain, conflict when they meet. Is that a human limitation of the organic domain, or an inorganic limitation?

Zen said...

"Time will continue to scatter wonderously (wondering aimlessly) in no particular order, time will stand still, presumeably in random chaos.”

Dear Anonymous,

Do you know why DAO never been a “state religion” in China like Confucianism? Because, DAO means CHAOS in the eyes of Emperors. Yes, LIFE itself is naturally CHAOS anyway.

Dear Anonymous,

Thank you for your opinions. Oh, there's a lot similarity between your thinking with my thinking. I hope all people in this world have the same thinking. Then I HOPE there will be PEACE in this earth.

Dear Dave8,

Wow, you are really great! I admire you and your explanation. Your words are very clear to me. And yes there is conflict even in science. But you are genius anyway.

Let me tell you a secret. Actually, Dao has a terminology for the puzzle of LIFE and UNIVERSE: ZHEN KONG MIAO YOU (really void miraculously exist) and Buddhism has a similar terminology: SUNYATA. Well, I often find PEACE and HAPPINESS when I realize this simple secret enlightenment of Laozi or Buddha about LIFE and UNIVERSE.

But sometimes I don’t satisfy with these answers (zhen kong miao you / sunyata) cause sometimes I am not very sure. They are old rotten teachings, you know that. LOL. Thank you anyway

Zen

Dave8 said...

Zen: "Actually, Dao has a terminology for the puzzle of LIFE and UNIVERSE: ZHEN KONG MIAO YOU (really void miraculously exist) and Buddhism has a similar terminology: SUNYATA. Well, I often find PEACE and HAPPINESS when I realize this simple secret enlightenment of Laozi or Buddha about LIFE and UNIVERSE."

The Chinese idiom... zhen-kong-miao-you. The initial assumption, is that there exists non-existence, the "void". If this concept is accepted, it represents a point in "time", mentally modelled where there is nothing to promote phenomenal cause-effect(s) & the resulting conditions. Does matter exist in this non-existence?

In the realm of phenomena, where these conditions theoretically arise, something has to "stir" the "void". In the thought of Kant, the phenomenal realm is the world of matter. Does matter, "stir" in the "void", to create cause-effects, i.e., consciousness? Nirvana?

The philosophy, appears to take on the attributes of objectivism, with a "prime" mover. Do you believe there is a "prime" mover, that casues the restlessness in the "void".

Is consciousness an inorganic form, or organic? Is a photon organic or inorganic? Is consciousness a process or a product?

Just want to hear what you have to say on the topic. I admire your energy to search for such answers, it makes life adventurous :-)

Anonymous said...

Zen
God (for lack of a better word, subtance) is in everything and everything is in God(substance,) God (substance) is all there is, not a being, but a presense of all things.

This substance, what is called God, was the central mass before the expansion, in the beginning, there was God(the huge central mass) and it expanded through space, space being an empty void, (complete nothingness)

We are flowing with this substance, what we call God. All things are flowing with this substance, therefore if we are for this substance, whom shall be against us?

No one can be against us! Only ourselves! We ourselves are our greatest enemy here, on earth!

admirer of Zen,

Zen said...

Dave8:
Does matter exist in this non-existence?
Does matter, "stir" in the "void", to create cause-effects, i.e., consciousness? Nirvana?
Is consciousness a process or a product?

Zen’s comment:
Dave, these are hard questions. Actually, I had thought these questions too for years, but maybe my honest answers will make you disappointed: “I DON’T KNOW”.
Why am I AGNOSTIC upon these questions? Eastern/Chinese philosophies believe that object and subject, matter and consciousness, are woven each other, so it’s hard to determine what is the subject and what is the object, what is the matter what is the consciousness. Zhuangzi ever said: “Last night I dreamed that I became butterfly, now I don’t know whether I am butterfly has been dreaming as human or not.” Laozi ever said: “Sky and Earth have no feelings, they treat us like objects!” As a Zen/Skeptic, I don’t know whether Zhuangzi or Laozi ever really said these sayings or not, but these sayings reflect the typical Chinese thinking. And I must admit that I am a product of Chinese thinking. I am what I am with certain gifts and certain lacks. So I am sorry if I am disappointing you with my “agnostic” answers.

Dave8:
Is consciousness an inorganic form, or organic?
Is photon organic or inorganic?

Zen’s comment:
I will ask you back: Is earth organic or inorganic? Maybe you already knew from watching TV that recently in Porong, Sidoarjo District, East Java Province, a great mudflow disaster has been going on. Well, you can look this Earth like organic: bleeding, flowing out the mud, like the blood of animal.
By the way, there are about 6 millions oil drills that stab the earth and suck its oil since 20th century. And this is my joke: If we look the earth as a dog, so we are its bugs sucking its blood! Aceh Tsunami maybe was one example of this “dog” reaction that just want to scratch these annoying “bugs” (humans). LOL. But if we look the earth as inorganic, we can say that the mudflow just a natural phenomena, the high-pressures under the earth that make mudflow happened. Or we can look the earth core simply as such a nuclear reactor.
Anyway, an Australian guy said that USA made this tsunami with nuke to kill 250,000 “radical” Moslems in Aceh for revenge the loss of “Christians” on 911 and Iraqi war; “Did New York Orchestrate The Asian Tsunami?” www.joevialls.net/subliminalsuggestion/tsunami.html. Huh?! Believe it or not!

Anonymous:
We are flowing with this substance, what we call God.

Zen’s comment:
Yes, I think we are flowing with substance we call God (Tian Di or Sky Earth). Our solar system is flowing in this milky way and this milky way is flowing in the Universe

All things are flowing with this substance, therefore if we are for this substance, whom shall be against us?
No one can be against us! Only ourselves! We ourselves are our greatest enemy here, on earth!

Zen’s comment:

You make me remember this Dao saying:
Tian Di shi wo men de Fu Mu (Sky & Earth is our Father & Mother).
Dao believes that we are the children of God.
We can do everything we want to do under the Sky & upon the Earth.
And yes the greatest enemy of us is ourselves.

An Old Dao Poem:
Sky is our Father, brings us protection.
Earth is our Mother, brings us nurture.
Sun is our Uncle, brings us the bright light in the morning.
Moon is our Aunt, brings us the soft light in the night.

Dave8 said...

Dave8: "Is consciousness an inorganic form, or organic?
Is photon organic or inorganic?"

Zen: "I will ask you back: Is earth organic or inorganic?"

Both.

Zen: "And yes there is conflict even in science."

Yes... there is.

Organic: "1. noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals, but that now includes all other compounds of carbon."

It appears there was/is a conflict in the scientific community as to "what" organic really should be defined as.

It's like, the two "domains" of time, that conflict when modelled towards eachother.

The reason you are agnostic on many of the answers you have searched for, is because compartmentalized questions drive compartmentalized answers. You discard questions, when they begin to start terminating in a dead end, that you can't tie back to the process of life.

There are such things as "bad" questions, in my opinion, and those are the ones that "drive" answers, not the ones that are open-ended and allow holism to be explored.

Those that are wise, have learned to spot "dead end" questions. And, more importantly "dead end", linguistic terms, that hold no useful meaning. For instance, the word "immaterial", is a word, that describes "nothing material", that word is not useful in a universe that is "material". One can not "tie" that word to anything, make a link, or place it somewhere in a process and give it a "meaningful" relationship. It's an opposite, only useful, to corroborate and measure what truly "exists". I prefer to start with what exists, and move outward... I don't tend to like to start with "nothing", and try to work my way back into existence, if you know what I mean :-)

Modern language has its challenges and has failed in many ways I believe, as well, but that is a different topic. Hope you find peace in your journey.

Dave8 said...

Just a thought, before I leave, on the topic of modern language, and how the western world is taught.

Noun: "–noun 1. any member of a class of words that are formally distinguished in many languages, as in English, typically by the plural and possessive endings and that can function as the main or only elements of subjects or objects, as cat, belief, writing, Ohio, darkness. Nouns are often thought of as referring to persons, places, things, states, or qualities.

Heaven: "–noun 1. the abode of God, the angels, and the spirits of the righteous after death; the place or state of existence of the blessed after the mortal life.

Abode: "–noun 1. a place in which a person resides; residence; dwelling; habitation; home."

Zen: "“Did New York Orchestrate The Asian Tsunami?” "

When people are hurt, they seek out those they feel can help them, and attempt to influence support, so that they can gain that help. Its a part of our nature.

The U.S. has had its own suffering due to natural disasters in the past few years... it happens. Peace.

Zen said...

Dave8:
"I will ask you back: Is earth organic or inorganic?"
Both.
Organic: "1. noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals, but that now includes all other compounds of carbon."
It appears there was/is a conflict in the scientific community as to "what" organic really should be defined as.

Zen:
Now you and I have similar thinking. From chemistry, I know that Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen (CHO) are in the nature, plants, animals, and humans. And as a vegetarian, I learned a lot of Nutrition and I know that Carbohydrate and Lipid are CHO too (Protein/Amino Acids = CHON). So then I think the terminology of “organic” or “inorganic” is like “mumbo jumbo” to me.

Dave8:
Modern language has its challenges and has failed in many ways I believe, as well, but that is a different topic.

Zen:
Yes! You are true. I know that too. If you learn/study Chinese language you will face more challenges. You know that “Zhongwen (Chinese words)” is the only “pictorial” words that still exist today. (Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Indian “pictorial” words had been discarded by their own people). There are hundreds radicals (basic pictures) in Zhongwen to form thousands (to even millions) of words by combining radicals. In the last years of Eastern Zhou Dynasty (770-221 BC), there were seven large kingdoms in China and every kingdom had his/her own words and language. Very complicated! It’s impossible to study all of them in one life! Then Qin Shihuangdi (from Qin Dynasty/ Kingdom: 221-206 BC) unified those kingdoms and simplified and standardized Chinese words and language. But it was still quite complicated! Need at least ten to twenty years to learn it (depended on how fast you learn). In the middle of 20th century, Mao Zedong simplified Chinese words again, so you only need around five to ten years to learn it. When I learned Chinese words, I knew how those ancient words created and their limitations. That’s why ancient Dao/Zen Master sometimes didn’t use words or language to make disciples understood the meaning of something. Yes, language has failed in many ways. That’s why I am skeptical with every religious book too.

Dave8:
I prefer to start with what exists, and move outward... I don't tend to like to start with "nothing", and try to work my way back into existence, if you know what I mean :-)

Zen:
Similar. DAO is always from inside/inward first then to outside/outward, from existence first then to void.
It’s nice to meet you. Peace.

Dave8 said...

Zen: "Yes! You are true. I know that too. If you learn/study Chinese language you will face more challenges. You know that “Zhongwen (Chinese words)” is the only “pictorial” words that still exist today. (Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Indian “pictorial” words had been discarded by their own people). There are hundreds radicals (basic pictures) in Zhongwen to form thousands (to even millions) of words by combining radicals. In the last years of Eastern Zhou Dynasty (770-221 BC), there were seven large kingdoms in China and every kingdom had his/her own words and language. Very complicated! It’s impossible to study all of them in one life! Then Qin Shihuangdi (from Qin Dynasty/ Kingdom: 221-206 BC) unified those kingdoms and simplified and standardized Chinese words and language. But it was still quite complicated! Need at least ten to twenty years to learn it (depended on how fast you learn). In the middle of 20th century, Mao Zedong simplified Chinese words again, so you only need around five to ten years to learn it. When I learned Chinese words, I knew how those ancient words created and their limitations. That’s why ancient Dao/Zen Master sometimes didn’t use words or language to make disciples understood the meaning of something. Yes, language has failed in many ways. That’s why I am skeptical with every religious book too."

Yes, so true. Using words to denote meaning is difficult, under the best of circumstances most times. As shown earlier, the western world teaches its children, characters, words, definitions/meaning, and then sentence structure/protocol. Much like learning any other language, i.e., mathematics, computer languages, etc.

Its unfortunate, though, that children are taught "words", and not how to discriminate between what is "real" or "unreal". The word "Heaven", for instance, is taught as a "noun", which describes a "real" object/place. Therefore, a child accepts what they are taught, without the capability/ability to measure truth. Many children feel frustrated, betrayed, or have self-esteem problems, when they finally become capable of inspecting the truth of the words, that they have held as true many years of their life. Its natural to be curious, and this is a factor than allows many children to break free and strive for a deeper sense of reality/understanding. Children don't know reality, is compartmentalized, until they are taught :-)

Some belief systems, appear not to allow for strict compartmentalization, and want to soak everything in at once holistically, and as you said, that becomes a challenge, as a language then has to be capable of representing all possibilities of reality.

Zen: "There are hundreds radicals (basic pictures) in Zhongwen to form thousands (to even millions) of words by combining radicals."

The western nations have a young language, and are still growing their language base, using radicals/symbols, from a 26 character set. Who knows when the creation of words will end, and what it really meant. It's artistic to create new things, its human nature, but creation of words doesn't change reality or necessarily represent reality. Perhaps, in a few hundred more years, the west will start trimming back on the artistic expression of words, so that reality isn't blurred/smeared beyond recognition :-)

There are perks to living in a nation that has had to live through these times, and has learned from its history. The western and eastern philosophies in many forms, don't agree. Not because of logic, but because of culture.

"From 1000-1500, China led the world in economic development. As trade between China and Europe begins to expand from 1550 onwards, the Chinese economy is, by many measures, more productive than Europe's."
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/chinawh/index.html

This is not one of those "topics" covered in any course, other than perhaps world history. And, there are many people who do not take "world history" throughout their life in the west. The west borrowed its economic structure from Europe. So much borrowed, yet entire nations of people so far removed from knowing their origins of thought. Some would suggest that primitive humanity held no "truth" and weren't intellectually gifted. Others, may suggest that at one time, truth was simple, and has only become more complex based on what humanity has attempted to force it to become.

Zen: "In the last years of Eastern Zhou Dynasty (770-221 BC), there were seven large kingdoms in China and every kingdom had his/her own words and language. Very complicated! It’s impossible to study all of them in one life!"

However, technology is replacing at a fast pace what we can't do for ourselves. A computer loaded with the base language characters can be used to create a translation processor. Technology, is creating a common domain of language, albeit slowly. Something to look forward to.

Zen: "Then Qin Shihuangdi (from Qin Dynasty/ Kingdom: 221-206 BC) unified those kingdoms and simplified and standardized Chinese words and language."

A nation not speaking the same language is in chaos. The west as stated earlier, has not punctuated the meaning of words and meaning, and therein lies a lot of domestic/international turmoil. Typically, between those who assign different meanings to words, based on nothing but opinion, desire, and hope. It still doesn't change the reality of the words.

Zen: "But it was still quite complicated! Need at least ten to twenty years to learn it (depended on how fast you learn)."

I'll use a translator any day :-)

Zen: "In the middle of 20th century, Mao Zedong simplified Chinese words again, so you only need around five to ten years to learn it."

Five to ten years to learn a language, is a long time not to be connected with those of their society.

Nothing like relying on a nation of people (neural processors), to direct and guide a nation in communication development. Especially, if many are using incompatible code, because they have agendas :-) Parallel processing is a great idea, but until there is a common code among a nation, the data is corrupt, and a nation has a blurred vision.

In the U.S., the voting system is the interface, and its currently undergoing revision. Still, there are many who will not participate and be part of the neural network, but... that's democracy, people can choose to direct their destiny, or not.

"By 1973 anti-Soviet motivation increased efforts to spread pinyin,which was given further letters to represent phonemes of border languages in order to enhance Chinese unification with the non-Han Uigars and Kazakhs of Sinkian. However, these minorities resist, preferring the old Arabic forms that link them with their Soviet ethnic groups and their Islamic faith."
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~ozideas/wchinref.htm

Words/symbols were/are considered by some groups to hold power or magical properties. It prevents many from wanting to change their language.

I use mathematical symbols, to model the holistic process of life, yet... the very symbols I chart, which are more than 5,000 years old, are considered by many in the west - magical and destructive. I do not present this part of my research, in many ways, because I don't want to be bothered by the ignorance and insecurity it would bring out in many who are not educated, and that is far too many people than I care to deal with. Perhaps, one day...

Zen: "And my question is simple but very important: does Universe has border/limit or not?"

You started your post out wanting to know if the universe was finite/infinite or more simply put, whether or not it has borders.

The question itself, is compartmentlized, and drives a compartmentalized answer - I don't consider it a valid question.

In other words, the very definition of "universe", is limited by characters placed one next to another, to represent something that is unknown/undefinable. Albeit, one can give it a personal meaning, and use it to constuct a quetsion.

The very word "universe" is a question, and using it in a sentence creates what I consider a compound question... a question nested within a question, using a linear sentence structure...

Asking questions about the meaning of the word universe, its origin, etc., would probably be more valuable, than asking about the attributes humanity has assigned to it over the years.

I have a question for you now :-)

Can a simple set of [8] characters in a simple sequence, represent more than you could possibly know? If not, then, doesn't the [8] characters, represent "all" that you know? Dave"8" - Perhaps, we are... all that we know.

Take Care...

Zen said...

Dave8:

“By 1973 anti-Soviet motivation increased efforts to spread pinyin,which was given further letters to represent phonemes of border languages in order to enhance Chinese unification with the non-Han Uigars and Kazakhs of Sinkian. However, these minorities resist, preferring the old Arabic forms that link them with their Soviet ethnic groups and their Islamic faith."
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~ozideas/wchinref.htm

Zen:

If you talk about Chinese history, please understand well the history of Turks! I know that most of Western people are blind enough with the origin of the Turks: Xinjiang & Kazakhstan! (before Turks invaded Constantinople/Istanbul and built the country called Turkey now) .

Xinjiang means New (Xin) Territory (Jiang). Because, traditionally, Xinjiang was not Chinese Territory. Manchurian Dynasty or Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) after attacked and destroyed Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) then made a great expansion. Manchurian attacked and ruled over the land of the Turks. That’s’ why Manchurian named the area as “Xinjiang”.

Now Manchurians are minority in China, like Mongolians and Turks. Most of Mongolians, Manchurians, and Turks had been assimilated into “Han” people (I predicted 500 millions of Northern Chinese people is Mongolian-Manchurian-Turk descendants based on genetic link that so much close with these minorities). It is like German, France, & Italian people had been assimilated to British (England-Scotland-Wales) people in the USA! Most of people in this world rarely know that China was and is a melting pot of many nations and races long ago before USA established!

And the Turks had been assimilated since Tang Dynasty (618-907). Turks brought Buddhism to Han people (but later the Middle East people attacked Turks and converted them to Islam). Don’t you know that the founder of Tang Dynasty was a half Turk (Tujie)? Uighur is one of Turk’s tribes and also the Kazakhs. Under the “half Turk” Emperor: LI SHIMIN, Tang Dynasty became SUPERPOWER in the world like USA now. Japanese, Korean, Manchurian, Mongolian, Vietnamese, Burmese, etc came to China to learn science and art. Now you know why Muhammad ever said this famous word to his disciples,” Study the knowledge up to China.”

And that’s why Chinese in Indonesia are still proud to call themselves “Teng-lang” (Fujian/Hokkien dialect) or “Tong-yin” (Ke/Hakka dialect) or “Tang-ren” (Beijing/Pinyin dialect) means “Tang People”. “Tang-ren” is often used as a substitution of “Han-ren” means “Han People”. “Han-ren” is used since “Han” Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AC). I think Chinese in Indonesia is racist and idiot enough because they don’t know their own history that they are actually plural/heterogeneous not homogeneous. LOL.

Between 1966-1976 China was under Wenhua Geming or Cultural Revolution when extreme groups of Communist persecuted most of Chinese/Han people, not only Uighurs or Kazakhs. The simplified Zhongwen run wild without rules, and it made people confused enough when they tried to study it.

Fortunately, Deng Xiaoping could defeat extreme groups of Communist in 1976 and started to build China all over again. Then investors all over the world started to go to China.

Deng Xiaoping et al then also made a silent reformation on Pinyin and simplified Zhongwen. Now China put simplified Zhongwen in order with certain rules and also with Roman “Pinyin” to make people in the world easy to learn it. But I must tell you that “Pinyin” or “Beijing dialect” is more like French than English. It uses “nose” voice and “tongue” flexibility, so it is not easy to talk in Beijing dialect. Try it and then you will believe what I’m saying! For Southern Chinese people like me, it’s difficult to speak in Pinyin, cause it makes my tongue slip and my nose out of breath. LOL. I bet your translator will fail on practice because actually Chinese don’t TALK but SING when they talk! LOL.

Now China is the “Awakening Dragon”. And I hope “humanist-secularist” DAO will rise up again soon. Give its light to the China and the whole world. I have strong intuition that this dream will come true in 21st century.

Together with “humanist-secularist” Westerners (USA & EU), the “humanist-secularist” Chinese/Dao can build the PEACE on this earth. To make poverty a history. To build East-West harmonious relationship. This will be the peak of HUMAN CIVILIZATION.

I think Communism (imported from Soviet) is actually blessing in disguise for Chinese because the very cruel Cultural Revolution had paralyzed all religions in China and make Dao possible to rise again. This time “humanist-secularist” Dao will be the State Constitution. It’s like Declaration of Independence by Thomas Jefferson and Declaration of Emancipation by Abraham Lincoln. But the process must be step by step and not abrupt like Soviet/Russia under Gorbachev. I believe Mainland Chinese with Dao, their local wisdom, can make this gradual reformation naturally.

And yes, “humanist-secularist” Westerners and Dao common “enemy” is fundamentalist Christianity and extremist Islam. But again, the Christians and Moslems are not our enemy. They are only the victims of the long lasting cult. Frankly speaking: I want Christianity and Islam vanished from the surface of Mainland China. Their Churches and Mosques will be the Museums for Chinese to always remember about the cruel cult ever lived. That’s my dangerous dream and really a nightmare for Christianity and Islam in China. Just like Natives/Moslems in Indonesia want Chinese/Christians vanished from the surface of Indonesia. LOL.

Dave8:

I have a question for you now :-)
Can a simple set of [8] characters in a simple sequence, represent more than you could possibly know? If not, then, doesn't the [8] characters, represent "all" that you know? Dave"8" - Perhaps, we are... all that we know.

Zen:

From your words, I know you are very unique and very intelligent. My answer is “I don’t know”. Agnostic again. LOL. Take care.

Dave8 said...

Zen: For Southern Chinese people like me, it’s difficult to speak in Pinyin, cause it makes my tongue slip and my nose out of breath. LOL. I bet your translator will fail on practice because actually Chinese don’t TALK but SING when they talk! LOL.

b? shàng bù zú b? xià y?u yú ;-)

Zen: "Now China is the “Awakening Dragon”. And I hope “humanist-secularist” DAO will rise up again soon."

hu? lóng? Hehehehehe DAO, y?u x? wàng.


I will respond more later, in my native. Zen, hé píng.

Dave8 said...

Zen: "If you talk about Chinese history, please understand well the history of Turks! I know that most of Western people are blind enough with the origin of the Turks: Xinjiang & Kazakhstan! (before Turks invaded Constantinople/Istanbul and built the country called Turkey now)."

Constantinople, :-)

Constantinople was the capital of the Byzantine Empire and claimed to be the capital of the restored Roman Empire. An offshoot of a theocracy state. The ancient name of Constantinople was Byzantium, whence the Byzantine Empire's name was derived.

Zen: "Now Manchurians are minority in China, like Mongolians and Turks. Most of Mongolians, Manchurians, and Turks had been assimilated into “Han” people (I predicted 500 millions of Northern Chinese people is Mongolian-Manchurian-Turk descendants based on genetic link that so much close with these minorities). It is like German, France, & Italian people had been assimilated to British (England-Scotland-Wales) people in the USA! Most of people in this world rarely know that China was and is a melting pot of many nations and races long ago before USA established!"

I agree, ancient history is not one of those topics people attempt to discuss on a daily basis, nor is it taught in this manner in universities. There are a few courses, but it doesn't get into the compare and contrast between civilizations.

Zen: "And the Turks had been assimilated since Tang Dynasty (618-907). Turks brought Buddhism to Han people (but later the Middle East people attacked Turks and converted them to Islam)."

Ah, likely a result from a passive religious foundation. One has to be able to protect theirselves, or they will follow the leader's religion, no matter what it is.

Zen: "Don’t you know that the founder of Tang Dynasty was a half Turk (Tujie)? Uighur is one of Turk’s tribes and also the Kazakhs. Under the “half Turk” Emperor: LI SHIMIN, Tang Dynasty became SUPERPOWER in the world like USA now. Japanese, Korean, Manchurian, Mongolian, Vietnamese, Burmese, etc came to China to learn science and art. Now you know why Muhammad ever said this famous word to his disciples,” Study the knowledge up to China.”"

True. Unfortunate, that later on, the fanaticals were able to repress an entire culture, and prevent their ability to move into the path of knowledge. It's easier to control people, when they have no ability to counter what they are being taught.

Zen: "And that’s why Chinese in Indonesia are still proud to call themselves “Teng-lang” (Fujian/Hokkien dialect) or “Tong-yin” (Ke/Hakka dialect) or “Tang-ren” (Beijing/Pinyin dialect) means “Tang People”. “Tang-ren” is often used as a substitution of “Han-ren” means “Han People”. “Han-ren” is used since “Han” Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AC). I think Chinese in Indonesia is racist and idiot enough because they don’t know their own history that they are actually plural/heterogeneous not homogeneous. LOL."

People have immediate needs, and are willing to shun those who seem different, they will use whatever they can find, in order to justify their bigotry.

Zen: "Between 1966-1976 China was under Wenhua Geming or Cultural Revolution when extreme groups of Communist persecuted most of Chinese/Han people, not only Uighurs or Kazakhs. The simplified Zhongwen run wild without rules, and it made people confused enough when they tried to study it."

A country in chaos is easy to control, because they have no ability to understand their environment. Extremist groups are known for creating chaos, in order to over-rule subjects.

Zen: "Fortunately, Deng Xiaoping could defeat extreme groups of Communist in 1976 and started to build China all over again. Then investors all over the world started to go to China."

Free market enterprise, I suppose there are some benefits.

Zen: "Deng Xiaoping et al then also made a silent reformation on Pinyin and simplified Zhongwen. Now China put simplified Zhongwen in order with certain rules and also with Roman “Pinyin” to make people in the world easy to learn it. But I must tell you that “Pinyin” or “Beijing dialect” is more like French than English. It uses “nose” voice and “tongue” flexibility, so it is not easy to talk in Beijing dialect. Try it and then you will believe what I’m saying! For Southern Chinese people like me, it’s difficult to speak in Pinyin, cause it makes my tongue slip and my nose out of breath. LOL. I bet your translator will fail on practice because actually Chinese don’t TALK but SING when they talk! LOL."

The more harmonic/dynamic languages are more complex/tricky, I agree. The Navajo indians have such a harmonic language, one of the more complex in the world, not many people able to decipher the singing languages. Ironic, that animals are the experts in such communications, makes one wonder who is really the dominant communicator on this planet :-)

Zen: "Now China is the “Awakening Dragon”. And I hope “humanist-secularist” DAO will rise up again soon. Give its light to the China and the whole world. I have strong intuition that this dream will come true in 21st century."

Harmony is a good thing.

Zen: "Together with “humanist-secularist” Westerners (USA & EU), the “humanist-secularist” Chinese/Dao can build the PEACE on this earth. To make poverty a history. To build East-West harmonious relationship. This will be the peak of HUMAN CIVILIZATION."

What does Chinese/Dao say about those who are unwilling to work in society to make it better?

Zen: "I think Communism (imported from Soviet) is actually blessing in disguise for Chinese because the very cruel Cultural Revolution had paralyzed all religions in China and make Dao possible to rise again. This time “humanist-secularist” Dao will be the State Constitution. It’s like Declaration of Independence by Thomas Jefferson and Declaration of Emancipation by Abraham Lincoln. But the process must be step by step and not abrupt like Soviet/Russia under Gorbachev. I believe Mainland Chinese with Dao, their local wisdom, can make this gradual reformation naturally."

Yes, abrupt changes don't seem to do well for major groups of people. A gradual change is probably in everyone's interest. However, as the changes occur, the goal has to be kept in focus, or those who are able to take control, will do so, during times that major decisions will be made.

Zen: "And yes, “humanist-secularist” Westerners and Dao common “enemy” is fundamentalist Christianity and extremist Islam. But again, the Christians and Moslems are not our enemy. They are only the victims of the long lasting cult. Frankly speaking: I want Christianity and Islam vanished from the surface of Mainland China. Their Churches and Mosques will be the Museums for Chinese to always remember about the cruel cult ever lived. That’s my dangerous dream and really a nightmare for Christianity and Islam in China. Just like Natives/Moslems in Indonesia want Chinese/Christians vanished from the surface of Indonesia. LOL."

It's a slow process, to remove someone's harmonic language (intrinsic but yet clouded by misinterpretation)from their harmonic biorhythms, it takes a lot of decoding, and the only way to prevent the disharmony, is to stop the chaos recorder(s) - religious leaders & uneducated people who are playing the same music over and over.

Zen: "Dave8: I have a question for you now :-) Can a simple set of [8] characters in a simple sequence, represent more than you could possibly know? If not, then, doesn't the [8] characters, represent "all" that you know? Dave"8" - Perhaps, we are... all that we know."

Zen: "From your words, I know you are very unique and very intelligent. My answer is “I don’t know”. Agnostic again. LOL. Take care."

From your words, I as well, see you as a unique and intelligent being. Take Care.

Jason Koh said...

All things are Karma .Karma are all.

Anonymous said...

All things lead to nirvana, nirvana is where all things lead, "karma" is a stop along the way, it's transitory. Therefore, karma is not all, unless nirvana doesn't exist - your choice - enjoy your stay.

Zen said...

Dear Jason Koh & Anonymous

To deny one action is not followed by another action is not wise at all. But to accept fatalistic theory that we will always reincarnate without endings because we can’t stop karma is really absurd. Does Nirvana exist to stop karma?

Nirvana has two meanings that antagonistic one to another; first meaning is “extinction”, second meaining is “no (nir) desires (vana)”. The first meaning is usually used by Theravada (connected with atheistic “anatman” concept) and the second meaning is usually used by Mahayana (connected with theistic “atman” concept) >> See Mahaparinirvana Sutra for Mahayana concept about Nirvana.

I am not a follower of Theravada or Mahayana. I have my own concept about Nirvana.

I must repeat my opinion that maybe life after death (including “Nirvana” in so-called Buddhism) is only our IMAGINATION.

In nature, there is no reason why we must live forever. If we never die then this earth will be full with humans (we and our descendants). So we die for our descendants to live. That’s why (natural) life is good and (natural) death is good too.

It doesn’t matter if there IS Nirvana after DEATH or NOT. The really matter is how we appreciate this LIFE. As Pantheist (Daoist) I always see life and death as a great mystery/miracle of this Universe/Nature.

Dao Master: “People always see walking on the water or healing as a miracle but do they ever see that LIFE itself is a great miracle?”
Albert Einstein: “The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as of all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind.”

Realize that life is a great miracle then we will be happy. Nirvana? For me, NIRVANA means HAPPINESS. Theravada and Mahayana at least agree with one of Nirvana’s characters: HAPPINESS.

Why must we wait to taste Nirvana after death? Taste Nirvana RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW. That’s my simple opinion about Nirvana.

I hope my poem below can explain further my simple view on Buddhism.

“ZEN” ON BUDDHISM

Theravada: I believe PALI sutra
Mahayana: I believe SANSKRIT sutra
Zen: I disbelieve BOTH
Because Bodhidharma said that there is the Truth outside the books

Theravada: I use REASON
Mahayana: I use COMPASSION
Zen: I use BOTH
Because we are thinking and feeling beings

Theravada: I want to be ARAHAT (individual liberator, save myself)
Mahayana: I want to be BODHISATTVA (social liberator, save others)
Zen: I want to be BUDDHA (individual & social liberator, save myself & others)
Because Buddha never said, “I am Buddha and you are only Arahat or Bodhisattva.”

Anonymous said...

Zen: "To deny one action is not followed by another action is not wise at all. But to accept fatalistic theory that we will always reincarnate without endings because we can’t stop karma is really absurd."

I agree, my comment was to make the point, and you elaborated well.

Dave8 said...

Dear one of Zenna, I have a few questions that appear elusive.

Zen, is a branch/form of Mahayana philosophy.

Daoism is different than Zen or Mahayana.

You state agnosticism in regards to understanding the natural universe in which you live, observe and perceive.

However, you are not agnostic when speaking of death. Death is an experience, that you seem able to easily talk about, yet, I can’t conceive death as an experience. If there was anything that would require some agnosticism, it would appear that death, and the resultant happiness that may result would definitely be one of those areas at the top of one's list for agnosticism.

Are you speaking as one of samyaksambuddha? Do you believe in samsara? Do you believe there is merit in the Tibettan tradition of Buddhism, especially their view of their search for the yangsi?

I am aware of many cultural aspects and traditions of those of the Amdo province, culturally speaking. What fortune to find someone who is versed in the varied aspects of buddhism. Does your variety of Buddhist belief have a school/sect of thought, or do you find that you must choose something close, and modify the parts you don't really agree with? That's not a criticism, I'm thoroughly intrigued on your views.

Zen said...

Dave: Does your variety of Buddhist belief have a school/sect of thought, or do you find that you must choose something close, and modify the parts you don't really agree with?

Zen: Dave, you know from my previous post that I don’t belong to any religion. Actually, I am independent and liberal one. Honestly, my mind and heart choose a part of Zen and a part of Dao. Of course I don’t agree 100% with so-called Daoism and Zen nowadays. I only accept the part that I agree from both. And my mind always develops everyday depending on what I find. Maybe because my mind is always open and skeptical (I think this is the Zen influence in my mind). And my heart always develops too especially when I see this miraculous and mysterious Nature (I feel this is Dao influence in my heart). I hope you know this simple mind and heart that I have.

Dave: However, you are not agnostic when speaking of death. Death is an experience, that you seem able to easily talk about, yet, I can’t conceive death as an experience. If there was anything that would require some agnosticism, it would appear that death, and the resultant happiness that may result would definitely be one of those areas at the top of one's list for agnosticism.

Zen: Death, for example, is a natural phenomenon (this is Dao view). The reason is simple; if we never die, this earth will be full with humans. So nature arranges death for our goodness. We die for our descendants to live. Maybe atheism is right, there is no life after death, maybe theism is right that there is life after death. But currently I tend to agree with atheism. But my mind is still open. Why? Because if you know better Dao (this time I must explain further, I hope it is still simple for everyone to know), you will find that Dao believes in Qi (pronounced: Chi) or (maybe) Prana in Indian language. This Qi is similar with soul or spirit in Middle East religions but not exactly the same. Chinese philosophers, especially Laozi (his followers then built Daoism) and Gongfuzi (his follower then built Confucianism) only knew about Qi, and of course they did not know the concept of Nirvana or Reincarnation (because Buddhism had not come yet to China) or Heaven and Hell concept (Christianity or Islam had not existed yet). So we must know that the original teaching of Dao about death is very simple. Death is a kind of COMING HOME to Nature for the Qi. How the process of this Qi comes home to Nature (not to Heaven or Hell, not to Nirvana or Samsara), frankly speaking, I still don’t know. But Chinese people believe that the Qi of their ancestors will always protect them, the descendants. Sometimes I think I feel this Qi, especially the Qi of my late father. But this Qi is still a mystery for me, so I think I would rather be skeptic, agnostic or even atheistic about this Qi. Why? Because I don’t want to be a victim of self-proclaimed Dao Master and I don’t want to be victimizer too. You know that I hate to be a follower of religion (a slave) and I hate to be a leader of religion (a slave trader). I love to be independent and liberal. And I always admire Zhuangzi saying: BE FREE! Zhuangzi always reminds me to be close to Nature: BE NATURAL! For Zhuangzi and me, NATURE is the ORIGIN (Life is from Nature) and DESTINATION. (Death is coming home to Nature. Is death the freedom of misery? Is death the journey to happiness? Maybe. For Theravada, Nirvana means extinction and maybe extinction is same with death, the end of misery and the journey to happiness). If you want to be glad and sane just to be close to nature, just perceive the beautiful green mountain, clear river, blue ocean, blossoming flower, birds singing, fresh air and wind, etc. We, humans, love to take a vacation when holidays come. Why? Maybe Nature is calling us. I agree with Robert Ingersoll that we must enjoy the beautiful nature instead of the sermon of priest in the church.

Dave: Are you speaking as one of samyaksambuddha? Do you believe in samsara? Do you believe there is merit in the Tibettan tradition of Buddhism, especially their view of their search for the yangsi?

Zen: Frankly speaking, I appreciate Buddha but I think Buddhism is just a religion. Every religion tends to be a cult. Buddhism is less cruel or even non-cruel cult. So it doesn’t matter for me if Buddhism becomes majority in this world. Buddhism is totally different with Judaism, Christianity, or Islam because these Middle East religions tend to be cruel cult. I don’t know exactly the WHY, but maybe because the people of Middle East were more barbaric if we compare them with Indian people in the same era. I hope someday Buddhism can defeat these cruel cults /religions.
In Central Java, for example, Buddhism, especially Theravada, starts to rise again, and I hope someday Javanese become Buddhist again. Javanese people made a big mistake when they welcome Islam 500 years ago because they never knew that Islam is actually a hyena. Don’t welcome a hyena because it will attack you! Indonesia, Pakistan, Mesopotamia / Iraq, Persia / Iran, Syria, Egypt (and Lebanon in 20th century) were victims of Islam. Christianity ever became a hyena in the Dark Age, but now Christianity is only a dog, a pet (but beware of mad dog!). Don’t be afraid with hyena because it will attack you if you are afraid! Stand still! Hyenas like to “laugh” cynically so I will give my best “joke” to make them laugh out loud and people will see how bad their laughing. That’s my mission in this life: to release humans from cruel cult (First Islam, Second Christianity, Third Judaism). I know most of people need a religion, they can not be like me, so maybe Buddhism (Theravada or Mahayana) is the best offering.
Samyaksambuddha? This term is actually from Theravada (Samyak (Sanskrit)=Samma (Pali)) and you know I am not follower of Theravada. Samsara? Well, you know that I am agnostic and even in the border of atheistic, so you know exactly my answer about Samsara. Tibetan Buddhism? Yangsi? Well, you know I am not a follower of Mahayana including Tibetan Buddhism. For me, Dalai Lama is similar with Pope. But Tibetan Buddhism or Buddhism in general is less cruel than Roman Catholic. Both have celibate tradition. Sex scandal? A lot of it. Roman Catholic or Buddhism is really a business for its leader. LOL. But I think Pope or Dalai Lama is better/less cruel than Mullah. LOL

Dave8 said...

Zen: Dave, you know from my previous post that I don’t belong to any religion. Actually, I am independent and liberal one."

Just wondering, I consider Theravada to be a philosophy, not a religion. However, you state that you have an ecclectic view on Buddhism, not truly Zen per se.

Zen: "Honestly, my mind and heart choose a part of Zen and a part of Dao. Of course I don’t agree 100% with so-called Daoism and Zen nowadays. I only accept the part that I agree from both. And my mind always develops everyday depending on what I find. Maybe because my mind is always open and skeptical (I think this is the Zen influence in my mind). And my heart always develops too especially when I see this miraculous and mysterious Nature (I feel this is Dao influence in my heart). I hope you know this simple mind and heart that I have."

I understand your view. It's quite common for those in the U.S. to attend religions, without knowing the belief system, or even agreeing with many points of the religion. That's why I asked, I find very few people who can say, I believe in this "one" system, and everything that supports it. The ones who make such comments, I find, don't really know the religion they say they believe in holistically. This was the curiosity that drove the question, I saw a lot of "variant" types of buddhist belief being used, thanks for the explanation.

In the west, many people measure life, academics, and just about everything in their life, by milestones - a truly psychological challenge. Not to get into the finer details, but, religion for instance has always been weird to me.

I have always been reticent with the more religious, because they approach life by milestones. They encourage reaching some point in the organization, and then surrounding one's life around that origin. I see life as more of a river, in your context... the milestones are there, but they are not the focus... the flow is where the focus should be.

"Be master OF mind rather than mastered BY mind" - Zen Proverb

We must master not only the flow, but the vessel by which all things flow - which give us our perception of reality. And, oh, how some just don't seem to have trained themselves in the art of thought mastery.

"In all the world, man is the only creature that has taught itself to argue."

Zen: Death, for example, is a natural phenomenon (this is Dao view). The reason is simple; if we never die, this earth will be full with humans. So nature arranges death for our goodness. We die for our descendants to live."

However, if we never die, and Nature prevents birth, then we would be part of the goodness - unless one believes we live in a world of suffering.

Zen: "Maybe atheism is right, there is no life after death, maybe theism is right that there is life after death. But currently I tend to agree with atheism. But my mind is still open. Why? Because if you know better Dao (this time I must explain further, I hope it is still simple for everyone to know), you will find that Dao believes in Qi (pronounced: Chi) or (maybe) Prana in Indian language."

I understand that you are suggesting a life force, something similar to a "soul", but there again are differences in the words you use.

Qi/Chi is considered a vital life force, but it carries with it the potential to carry a positive or negative force (ying/yang), along the lines of the influence on karma.

Prana... is jainistic. I'm not sure you are going down this road, so, I'll ask before I go further. Do you believe in metempsychosis/transmigration? Over three thousand years of Mullah revolt :-)

How do you see a "life force", as somehow separate from the thought of a "soul"? Well, other than the fact that the word "soul" is a term used to popularize a belief thousands of years old by previous cultures.

Zen: "This Qi is similar with soul or spirit in Middle East religions but not exactly the same. Chinese philosophers, especially Laozi (his followers then built Daoism) and Gongfuzi (his follower then built Confucianism) only knew about Qi, and of course they did not know the concept of Nirvana or Reincarnation (because Buddhism had not come yet to China) or Heaven and Hell concept (Christianity or Islam had not existed yet)."

Ah, okay, that explains more of your insights on the topic of soul. So, belief systems built around the concept of a life force, which later was popularized by western religions as "soul". As well, those belief systems started developing a belief system around that concept.

Zen: "So we must know that the original teaching of Dao about death is very simple. Death is a kind of COMING HOME to Nature for the Qi."

Again, I can admire the roll back of time for thousands of years, to the most simple of beliefs and observations of the Universe. One can appreciate the beginnings, and observe how a lot of baggage was placed onto the core understandings, to create politicized belief systems.

Zen: "How the process of this Qi comes home to Nature (not to Heaven or Hell, not to Nirvana or Samsara), frankly speaking, I still don’t know."

What does it mean to "know", something?

Zen: "But Chinese people believe that the Qi of their ancestors will always protect them, the descendants. Sometimes I think I feel this Qi, especially the Qi of my late father. But this Qi is still a mystery for me, so I think I would rather be skeptic, agnostic or even atheistic about this Qi."

Bruce Lee: "Empty your mind, Be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes a cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash, Be water my friend"

Consider your childhood thoughts, formless, shapeless. The memories of your life, became you. Why would you not, feel the presence of your father - your thoughts were molded with his fingerprints. The pot knows the potter.

Zen: "Why? Because I don’t want to be a victim of self-proclaimed Dao Master and I don’t want to be victimizer too."

Yet, water has no master, nor does it enslave. However, it can support those in life who become buyount enough to move on down the river of life.

"When the student is ready, the Master appears." Buddhist Proverb

The master need only be wise, master the virtue of patience, and keep flowing.

Zen: "You know that I hate to be a follower of religion (a slave) and I hate to be a leader of religion (a slave trader). I love to be independent and liberal. And I always admire Zhuangzi saying: BE FREE! Zhuangzi always reminds me to be close to Nature: BE NATURAL! For Zhuangzi and me, NATURE is the ORIGIN (Life is from Nature) and DESTINATION. (Death is coming home to Nature. Is death the freedom of misery? Is death the journey to happiness? Maybe."

What is happiness, if there is no misery? Does Nature speak of such things, and is happiness nothing but an act of humanity arguing with intself?

Zen: "For Theravada, Nirvana means extinction and maybe extinction is same with death, the end of misery and the journey to happiness). If you want to be glad and sane just to be close to nature, just perceive the beautiful green mountain, clear river, blue ocean, blossoming flower, birds singing, fresh air and wind, etc."

"The no-mind not-thinks no-thoughts about no-things - The Buddah"

It doesn't take thought, to find peace per se? What do you think - about thinking?

In your testimony you posted a comment... "Is God eternal or temporary? Buddha was silent."

God is a fragile thing, it requires thought, without thought, god is no thing, per Buddah. He was silent, because the question, exposed the unlearned.

"Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself - Chinese Proverb"

Many of humanity have lost the essence of what it is to be human, and to intuitively know how to enter through the door. It is not the wise teacher's place to push the student of life through the door, but only to illuminate the path, and be the fluid support when the time is right. Water does not hold one's hand, it does not tug... and neither did Buddha... he was silent.

"The river has no shape, but it takes on the boundaries which it carves out for itself, so is the mind boundless, until it creates a prison for its own thoughts."

Those who create prisons, must be the ones to unlock their prison cells. Unfortunate, that many in the west, and around the world are profoundly proficient at creating prisons... it comes from being trained at an early age, by those who have become masters of their own prisons...

Zen: "We, humans, love to take a vacation when holidays come. Why? Maybe Nature is calling us."

True, and coincidentally, maybe we intuitively/reflexively know that the prison that has been created is only an illusion, and we yearn to be released from that illusion that removes us from our core truth... Truth existed, thousands of years CE, it took many years to develope a system of elaborate illusion...

Zen: "I agree with Robert Ingersoll that we must enjoy the beautiful nature instead of the sermon of priest in the church."

Ah, church and priest, master's in the creation of no-things, and prisons.

Dave: Are you speaking as one of samyaksambuddha? Do you believe in samsara? Do you believe there is merit in the Tibettan tradition of Buddhism, especially their view of their search for the yangsi?

Zen: Frankly speaking, I appreciate Buddha but I think Buddhism is just a religion. Every religion tends to be a cult."

... Much of all we perceive can be considered part of a "cult"ure... and that is not limited to theology, as theology is a child of other schools of thought as well... Every school of thought promulgated with the intent to solely reward its benefactor, which requires a strict adherence to protocols, seems to be a self-serving system - pick your protocol system.

Zen: "Buddhism is less cruel or even non-cruel cult. So it doesn’t matter for me if Buddhism becomes majority in this world. Buddhism is totally different with Judaism, Christianity, or Islam because these Middle East religions tend to be cruel cult. I don’t know exactly the WHY, but maybe because the people of Middle East were more barbaric if we compare them with Indian people in the same era."

One figured out how to build prisons faster than the other.

Zen: "I hope someday Buddhism can defeat these cruel cults /religions."

Buddhism is not the solution to the freedom from prisons built by other designers... Hopefully, many can see the illusion of their prisons, and if Buddhism is a step along the way, perhaps, one could consider that progress...

Zen: "In Central Java, for example, Buddhism, especially Theravada, starts to rise again, and I hope someday Javanese become Buddhist again. Javanese people made a big mistake when they welcome Islam 500 years ago because they never knew that Islam is actually a hyena. Don’t welcome a hyena because it will attack you!"

Prisons come in many forms, only when one is locked up and learn how to escape, can they understand the common blueprints of other prison makers...

Zen: "Indonesia, Pakistan, Mesopotamia / Iraq, Persia / Iran, Syria, Egypt (and Lebanon in 20th century) were victims of Islam. Christianity ever became a hyena in the Dark Age, but now Christianity is only a dog, a pet (but beware of mad dog!). Don’t be afraid with hyena because it will attack you if you are afraid!"

A prisoner who escapes with their eyes open, is usually able to identify the prison designer and warden. Unfortunately, those who are fluent in such understanding, are a threat. When threatened, both the hyena and dog can be vicious. History has shown the millions who have died because they exposed the threat.

Zen: "Stand still! Hyenas like to “laugh” cynically so I will give my best “joke” to make them laugh out loud and people will see how bad their laughing. That’s my mission in this life: to release humans from cruel cult (First Islam, Second Christianity, Third Judaism). I know most of people need a religion, they can not be like me, so maybe Buddhism (Theravada or Mahayana) is the best offering."

A noble cause, hence, my question regarding your views on those who are capable of reaching enlightenmnet... Samyaksambuddha was a Pali example.

Zen: "Samyaksambuddha? This term is actually from Theravada (Samyak (Sanskrit)=Samma (Pali)) and you know I am not follower of Theravada."

What does enlightenment mean to you? Can a person ever become enlightened? How would one ever know?

Zen: "Samsara? Well, you know that I am agnostic and even in the border of atheistic, so you know exactly my answer about Samsara."

Fair enough, just wanted to see which pieces you accepted, such a variant of paths one can take.

Zen: "Tibetan Buddhism? Yangsi? Well, you know I am not a follower of Mahayana including Tibetan Buddhism. For me, Dalai Lama is similar with Pope. But Tibetan Buddhism or Buddhism in general is less cruel than Roman Catholic. Both have celibate tradition. Sex scandal? A lot of it. Roman Catholic or Buddhism is really a business for its leader. LOL. But I think Pope or Dalai Lama is better/less cruel than Mullah. LOL"

The weakest prison bar illusions, require the most energy, and "force", to keep them active in the minds of the captive. It's why some prison wardens are more cruel than others. A faulty design can be hidden if the captive is forced to look away. The cause you have chosen to follow, can only be successful, if you are able to sharpen the peripheral vision of the one trapped. It will draw the captive's stare slowly away over time. Yet, the captive must still find their core... and walk through the door to those who can teach.

Many walk from one prison to another, because they were never truly in touch with their core being, such is the nature of humanity as a modern culture.

At the beginning of this thread, near death experiences were mentioned. Experiences such as these force the person/being to let go of all that keeps them grounded/secure... And, what one at times finds, is that all that was keeping them secure, was only an illusion, that there was extreme peace once one understood they no longer had to keep tied to the shore that kept them secure, that they could finally, just let go, and float down the river. Experiencing death is a mystery... experiencing the freedom of illusion, for some... is not.

"A reflection on a pool of water does not reveal its depth."

The beauty of a reflection, becomes insignificant once one realizes the depth of the beauty - and such is much of our reality.

The reflection of your name "Zen" doesn't truly represent your depth. This is why I pondered on why you have chosen to use the word to define yourself on this thread. I spend a lot of energy, trying to get a glimpse of a persons' reflection, because I see depth first... I have to pull myself back, in order to see the image they are intending me to see.

Thanks for your comments, and sharing a part of your history.

Zen said...

Dave: "Be master OF mind rather than mastered BY mind" - Zen Proverb
Zen: LOL. That is what exactly in my brain.

Dave: Prana... is jainistic. I'm not sure you are going down this road, so, I'll ask before I go further. Do you believe in metempsychosis/transmigration?
Zen: That’s why I wrote “(maybe)” because I know Prana and Qi are not exactly the same. And Jainism is older than Buddhism. In fact, Jainism influenced Buddhism in many aspects. (It will be a long explanation, so I must stop it, you can study it by yourself).

Dave:Yet, water has no master, nor does it enslave. However, it can support those in life who become buyount enough to move on down the river of life.
Zen: LOL. You are very good in the basic knowledge of Dao. A person like you is very rare in the West. Yes, be like water and you will be the great Dao Master. But I am just a naughty Daoist. LOL.

Dave: What is happiness, if there is no misery? Does Nature speak of such things, and is happiness nothing but an act of humanity arguing with intself?
Zen: I have said the same too in the previous post. In this case I only try to compare Nirvana with Death. You know in Buddhism, the death of Buddha is called Pari-Nirvana, or Maha-Pari-Nirvana.

Dave: In your testimony you posted a comment... "Is God eternal or temporary? Buddha was silent." God is a fragile thing, it requires thought, without thought, god is no thing, per Buddah. He was silent, because the question, exposed the unlearned.
Zen: Yes, you are right. The reason why I asked about “God” is only to make people think again their concept about God. And I have explained it in my later opinion. For me, God is nothing but Universe or Nature. It is simple. It is Dao. Moreover, I had said from the beginning that I am Pantheist/Dao-ist. But I found that people, especially in Indonesia, did not know exactly what Pantheism/Daoism is really about. And I think this is not only happened in Indonesia but all over the world. Why? Because religions had brainwashed their brains so they can not realize the Nature. Lost their sanity and going insane with fundamentalist/extremist religions.

Dave: "The river has no shape, but it takes on the boundaries which it carves out for itself, so is the mind boundless, until it creates a prison for its own thoughts."
Those who create prisons, must be the ones to unlock their prison cells. Unfortunate, that many in the west, and around the world are profoundly proficient at creating prisons... it comes from being trained at an early age, by those who have become masters of their own prisons...
Zen: LOL. That is the main reason why I like to be independent and liberal for so long. Well, I think you are very smart to know this fact.

Dave: ... Much of all we perceive can be considered part of a "cult"ure...
Zen: …and don’t forget about tradition too. The origin of “tradition” word is “trade”.

Zen said...

Dave: What does enlightenment mean to you? Can a person ever become enlightened? How would one ever know?

Zen: Well, this time, I will explain you further. For me, enlightenment is nothing but realization. Realization of what? Realization of ourselves (Socrates: KNOW YOURSELF), of our LIFE (Life is a miracle), of our NATURE, of our UNIVERSE.

Universe is reality (I mentioned it before). But the deeper realization is: Universe is VOID.

Why? Because if you study physic, you know that 99.999999999% (I don’t remember exactly the numbers of 9 after the dot) of an atom is VOID. If we can shrink ourselves smaller than an atom then we will see that the size of an atom is like 100 football fields and proton, electron, neutron are like the footballs. So there is a lot of EMPTY SPACE in one atom. Lately, science have found that proton, electron, neutron is not the smallest. Have you ever heard about quarks? So inside the proton, there is a lot of empty space too! Believe me, science/ scientist will find smaller and smaller again. No one can predict the end of the searching of the “smallest”!

So actually a stone, a flower, an animal, a human are 99,99999999999999999% (you can add the numbers of 9 as many as you like) VOID! But we can see them. We can see this VOID. It is really MIRACLE (the “magic” of perception?). This is what Daoism said as Zhen-GONG-Miao-YOU (Really VOID Miraculously EXIST) or SUNYATA in Buddhism (I have mentioned this before). Our body is actually void but we can see the existence of our body. It is really a miracle. What a perception! (I guess/speculate this is what Buddha/Laozi knew in his ENLIGHTENMENT)

I must stop this explanation of PANTHEISM / DAOISM before it will be too long and I want your response first.

Dave8 said...

Zen: …and don’t forget about tradition too. The origin of “tradition” word is “trade”.

;-) And, so... we continue to trade for the expansion of self-knowledge, in a traditional way...

Zen: "Well, this time, I will explain you further. For me, enlightenment is nothing but realization. Realization of what? Realization of ourselves (Socrates: KNOW YOURSELF), of our LIFE (Life is a miracle), of our NATURE, of our UNIVERSE."

En-lighten-ment: En (to bring about) lighten (the release of a burden or oppression) ment (at some point in time).

Enlightenment, is to bring about the release of that which one finds burdensome in their lives. For one person, it could be the extinction of grief for a loved one, for another, it could be the release from religious oppression and individual freedom. Once one "realizes" their ideal, they have reached a period of "enlightenment". In the macro sense, it could be described as an era in history, to the individual it could be described as a period of individual peace.

You suggest that the realization, of ourselves, our nature, and our universe is a path towards enlightenment. In essence, this suggests that a person is burdened and seeking release from the non-realization of their true self, their true nature, and their true universe. Does this reflect your words, as you have presented them?

Zen: "Universe is reality (I mentioned it before). But the deeper realization is: Universe is VOID."

So, enlightenment is the release from the false perception of reality, in essence, it's the understanding that the universe is only an illusion dancing upon a void.

Zen: "Why? Because if you study physic, you know that 99.999999999% (I don’t remember exactly the numbers of 9 after the dot) of an atom is VOID."

:-) When you hear harmonic languages, do they exist? Is that, which you experience - a void? I understand materialism, and reductionism, and their limits, yet, matter per my understanding is much different that modern science teaches. Once again, the reformation of our reality will stir the literary artists to create new words to represent the different states we can manipulate our reality. Twist the particulars of reality, and then twist two-dimensional words to reflect the condition/effect/state of multi-dimensional reality, its a charade.

Zen: "If we can shrink ourselves smaller than an atom then we will see that the size of an atom is like 100 football fields and proton, electron, neutron are like the footballs. So there is a lot of EMPTY SPACE in one atom. Lately, science have found that proton, electron, neutron is not the smallest. Have you ever heard about quarks? So inside the proton, there is a lot of empty space too! Believe me, science/ scientist will find smaller and smaller again. No one can predict the end of the searching of the “smallest”!"

Well, it appears you have studied a lot about science. You suspect that scientists will find even smaller particles than quarks, neutrinos, etc? That's truly interesting. I think there is much wrong with the approach to this subject in various fields of science, but..., that's of no consequence in this discussion. However, I think it playful, to think of oneself on a sub-atomic football field throwing sub-atomic particles around for sport. LOL

Zen: "So actually a stone, a flower, an animal, a human are 99,99999999999999999% (you can add the numbers of 9 as many as you like) VOID! But we can see them. We can see this VOID."

I suppose if one imagines themselves on a sub-atomic playing field, that it would stand to reason that 99.9999% of everything they see is "separation", but again, is separation a "void", or is it the perception of "separation" an "illusion"?

Zen: "It is really MIRACLE (the “magic” of perception?)."

It does seem pretty amazing, this void, sub-atomic theory, and humanity's search for answers to their perceptions.

Zen: "This is what Daoism said as Zhen-GONG-Miao-YOU (Really VOID Miraculously EXIST) or SUNYATA in Buddhism (I have mentioned this before)."

Ah, so you have. The Shunyata in Buddhist philosophy, deals with "emptiness", but not in the form of theoretical physics :-) I don't imagine Buddha or Laozi as physicists using sub-atomic particle accelerators to test the limits of "void", or "emptiness".

Actually, the application of reductionism you have described is more of a western philosophy/perception, applied to the eastern philosophy of Buddhism or Dao/Tao Te Ching.

Zen: "Our body is actually void but we can see the existence of our body. It is really a miracle. What a perception! (I guess/speculate this is what Buddha/Laozi knew in his ENLIGHTENMENT)"

The origins of Buddhism/Laozi reflect the time of the philosophy. The "void" or "emptiness", describes "form", as "function" - where "form" is "emptiness" and "emptiness" is "form".

A play on perception. Where one finds "form", they also must see the underlying reliance on "emptiness" to give it "use" and "meaning". Those who can't see the "power of nothingness", as a part of the underpinnings of reality - are delusional to the degree at which they misperceive that "emptiness".

It's the poetic relationship of the two... In modern terms one could pose the following example;

We spin cotton to make socks and call it clothing; But it's in the space where there is a hole in the clothing that the usefulness depends.

Therefore, as many cherish and venerate the material world of what is, so must one become wise to recognize the necessity and usefulness of what is not - as it's in that context that we find meaning in much of our reality.

In your western context of reductionism, one would surmize, thousands of years later, that the philosophy of "Laozi" and "Buddha" would have eventually faultered in their philosophies.

However, even at the sub-atomic level (if one wants to put it that way) with the most cutting edge physics tools, there continues to be the separation/emptiness between the matter (the common understanding of matter), that gives the quark - meaning. By the "emptiness" surrounding the quark, not only does the quark find "existence", but that which surrounds the quark, finds a "relationship".

Enlightenment for many who are burdened with the illusion of separation in the universe, is to finally realize their true self, their true nature, and their true universe - as it relates to that "emptiness" which we all share, and which gives us meaning. We, Zen, are the feet in the socks of the universe ;-)

Zen: "I must stop this explanation of PANTHEISM / DAOISM before it will be too long and I want your response first."

Well, hopefully I was able to articulate and express in my own way, what Laozi/Lao Tzu or more correctly, what the philosopher Li Dan's interpolations of Laozi/Lao Tzu envisioned in regards to form and reality. As well, The Buddha had much a similar take on this dimension you identified as "void".

Thus, concludes my intuitive daodejing. By the way, the mountains of historic China are beautiful with snow this year. I could see how a pantheistic lean on Dao would fit quite nicely into the breath-taking presence of nature here. May you find peace in the "void", where suffering knows no voice.

Zen said...

Dave: En-lighten-ment: En (to bring about) lighten (the release of a burden or oppression) ment (at some point in time).
Enlightenment, is to bring about the release of that which one finds burdensome in their lives.

Zen: Great semantic explanation. But don’t forget that “light” has another meaning. It is not only the opposite of “heavy” but also the opposite of “dark”. Ancient sages in East or West try to explain this simple truth to people but people failed to know it. Holy books and religions (or cult) always and still burden and darken the people’s mind and heart.

Dave: So, enlightenment is the release from the false perception of reality, in essence, it's the understanding that the universe is only an illusion dancing upon a void.

Zen: Indian people called this illusion as MAYA.

Dave: When you hear harmonic languages, do they exist?

Zen: Hear? Exist? Well you know from science, a dog can hear the voices/sounds that we can’t hear. In the contrary, a worm can’t hear any sounds/voices.

Dave: Actually, the application of reductionism you have described is more of a western philosophy/perception, applied to the eastern philosophy of Buddhism or Dao/Tao Te Ching.

Zen: I always try to unify “new” fresh western philosophy with “old” rotten eastern philosophy. LOL. My mind is actually not western/ eastern. My brain is always open to every idea. I appreciate western philosophy as well as eastern philosophy. And I always try to combine/harmonize both. So my study is not only Indian/Chinese philosophy but also Greek/Western philosophy. Every time I study science/philosophy/history/anything, I try to get the essence and then re-thinking them by myself. I don’t think I am clever or know everything. I am only human being like you and the other. Actually, I think the more I study the more I feel myself stupid because there is always something that I don’t know. I think that’s why Laozi was always low profile. Lao-zi’s hobby is reading so he knew what most of Chinese people didn’t know in his era (and that’s why Gong-fu-zi went to Lao-zi to study ancient literatures). People saw Lao-zi as a great teacher/ philosopher but he felt himself stupid. I admire him and follow his path. Everyday I study everything: politic, economy, religion, history, science, etc from newspapers, magazines, books, Internets, or TV, just to open/enrich my thinking. My relatives and friends see me as a clever man because they see I know “everything” and every subject, but actually I am only ordinary Chinese man with a lot of jokes and sense of humor. No more no less. LOL.

Dave: The origins of Buddhism/Laozi reflect the time of the philosophy. The "void" or "emptiness", describes "form", as "function" - where "form" is "emptiness" and "emptiness" is "form".

Zen: We can’t separate form / matter with void / emptiness. We can’t separate life (when Qi/vital force exists in our body) with death (when Qi comes home to Universe/Nature). Life and death. Form and void. Yin and Yang. It is simple, isn’t it? But most of (religious) people often/always make these complicated. It is ironic that most of people fear of death but then trapped in Islam or Christianity or Judaism that give them empty promises and even make them KILL other humans based on Jihad, Crusade, or Jewish-superiority-complex. I think Middle East religions use the fear of death to make humanity dead! It is our responsibility to paralyze Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. How? Just ridicule them. Make jokes on them. Then we will make them “void”. LOL

Dave: Thus, concludes my intuitive daodejing. By the way, the mountains of historic China are beautiful with snow this year. I could see how a pantheistic lean on Dao would fit quite nicely into the breath-taking presence of nature here. May you find peace in the "void", where suffering knows no voice.

Zen: Do you know that “Dao” word contains “Shou” word? Shou means Head. In this case, head means brain! So Dao is the way of the head/brain/mind/thinking. “Daoist”, for me, is same with the “Thinker”. Do you know why Qin Shihuangdi after unified 7 kinggdoms killed many Dao Masters? Because Dao Masters were the great thinkers even great critics. Dao-de-jing is actually a book that criticize Confucianism and Legalism, and of course Dao-de-jing is not Lao-zi’s writing. His follower wrote Dao-de-jing.
When Emperor said “I am Dianzi (God’s Son) and I have Dianming (God’s Order) so you must obey!”, Dao Master replied, “I am Dianzi too so why must I obey you and your Dianming?”, and that impolite answer certainly made every Emperor very angry.

Dave, thank you for your explanation that makes everyone in this blog knows better what the idea that I try to express. You know that my English is very bad. LOL.

Zen said...

When Emperor said “I am Dianzi (God’s Son) and I have Dianming (God’s Order) so you must obey!”

Sorry for errors, the right “pinyin” should be “Tianzi” not “Dianzi” and “Tianming” not “Dianming”.
Tian (pronounced Thien) means Sky, Heaven, or God.
Zi (pronounced Tze/Ce) means Child, Son, Lord

Dave8 said...

Zen: Great semantic explanation. But don’t forget that “light” has another meaning. It is not only the opposite of “heavy” but also the opposite of “dark”. Ancient sages in East or West try to explain this simple truth to people but people failed to know it. Holy books and religions (or cult) always and still burden and darken the people’s mind and heart."

:-) Yes, the release of "dark" or that which burdens is also a form of "lightening". Yin/Yang is a Confucian concept, the observation & balance of opposites.

The Chinese bible translates logos as Tao, or "the way". Thus the Christian as well as other belief systems consider theirs "the way".

There are aspects I suppose of different philosophies, that have truth, but much has been buried by thousands of years and layers of distortion.

Logos thousands of years ago, was considered the "principle" by which the cosmos was governed. The term evolved, to "reason" as the guiding way, eventually, the "word" was associated to a "divine" being, which provided the "logos", call it religious deities, etc. Still, we are dealing with only a few thousand years of linguistic evolution, from some simplicity to an ever evolving obscurity of meaning. There are other methods of deriving meaning, outside of a plethora of words that are given to one as "the way".

Zen: Indian people called this illusion as MAYA.

Maya was indeed a significant term used in the Vedanta system of Shankara, and they believed it signified the world as a cosmic illusion, as well; the word was used to describe the power that creates the world. The word... was considered to speak of magic and the supernatural.

I suppose what is not understood, can be considered "magic", however, I prefer the term "unknown", and "amazing". As well, the term supernatural in this context is to describe that which is beyond natural understanding, however, that does not mean that the unknown is anything more than "natural". Religions is the following years, created the word transcendence, and that put a wrench in the entire philosophy of "the way", as it conflicted with reality.

Dave: When you hear harmonic languages, do they exist?

Zen: Hear? Exist? Well you know from science, a dog can hear the voices/sounds that we can’t hear. In the contrary, a worm can’t hear any sounds/voices.

Yet, the worm still responds to harmonic vibration :-) What makes one vibration more sophisticated than another :-)

Zen: I always try to unify “new” fresh western philosophy with “old” rotten eastern philosophy. LOL. My mind is actually not western/ eastern. My brain is always open to every idea. I appreciate western philosophy as well as eastern philosophy. And I always try to combine/harmonize both. So my study is not only Indian/Chinese philosophy but also Greek/Western philosophy."

The study of history and how systems of thought, interlace does seem an interesting method of discovery.

Zen: "Every time I study science/philosophy/history/anything, I try to get the essence and then re-thinking them by myself. I don’t think I am clever or know everything. I am only human being like you and the other. Actually, I think the more I study the more I feel myself stupid because there is always something that I don’t know."

I agree, how unfortunate that much has been convoluted, and distorted, it takes time to unwrap enough to actually make sense of most philosophy.

Speaking of tradition Dao, I understand that self knowledge is praised, by that there is much criticism for one attempting to reach or use rationalization :-) Do you agree with that view?

Actually, it is said by some, that the banishment of wisdom and knowledge will bring someone benefit a hundredfold. If knowledge is associated to "desire", then it diminishes the value. The ancients believed that the rise of intelligence and rationalization was the beginning of the downfall for humanity... is that your perception in regard to the great artifice of civilizations?

That... philosophy and the use of rationality was a clever stratagem that evolved over time, and has been getting more sophisticated and openly elusive throughout history.

Zen: "I think that’s why Laozi was always low profile. Lao-zi’s hobby is reading so he knew what most of Chinese people didn’t know in his era (and that’s why Gong-fu-zi went to Lao-zi to study ancient literatures). People saw Lao-zi as a great teacher/ philosopher but he felt himself stupid. I admire him and follow his path. Everyday I study everything: politic, economy, religion, history, science, etc from newspapers, magazines, books, Internets, or TV, just to open/enrich my thinking."

Do you believe in rationalization, its obvious you admire self-knowledge.

Zen: "My relatives and friends see me as a clever man because they see I know “everything” and every subject, but actually I am only ordinary Chinese man with a lot of jokes and sense of humor. No more no less. LOL."

You are clever, self knowledge is to know the self, that is the foci of enlightenment, wisdom comes with the application of self-knowledge towards the environment. You are humble, and that is a trait of Yin :-)

Zen: We can’t separate form / matter with void / emptiness. We can’t separate life (when Qi/vital force exists in our body) with death (when Qi comes home to Universe/Nature). Life and death. Form and void. Yin and Yang. It is simple, isn’t it? But most of (religious) people often/always make these complicated."

That is a very wise observation.

Zen: "It is ironic that most of people fear of death but then trapped in Islam or Christianity or Judaism that give them empty promises and even make them KILL other humans based on Jihad, Crusade, or Jewish-superiority-complex. I think Middle East religions use the fear of death to make humanity dead!"

Yes, it does appear that the prison makers do in fact rely greatly on rationalizing their agendas. There are entire books written on which belief system rationalizes better than the other. Many get caught in the game of trying to compare the two, and then there are others who jest at the entire process of comparing two similar tools.

Zen: "It is our responsibility to paralyze Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. How? Just ridicule them. Make jokes on them. Then we will make them “void”. LOL"

I do my best to ridicule, but, there is much of society, even in the economic sense, that is "tied" to the underpinning philosophy of separation, rationalization, etc. One would just have to laugh about history for a few thousand years, and cry about those who lived through those eras who knew the nightmare.

Zen: "Do you know that “Dao” word contains “Shou” word? Shou means Head. In this case, head means brain! So Dao is the way of the head/brain/mind/thinking. “Daoist”, for me, is same with the “Thinker”."

So, Dao is the way, and to you, the way is lead by the brain. I agree, seems a natural way to see things.

Zen: "Do you know why Qin Shihuangdi after unified 7 kinggdoms killed many Dao Masters?"

Yet, good thing history has left us with just enough to study.

Zen: "Because Dao Masters were the great thinkers even great critics. Dao-de-jing is actually a book that criticize Confucianism and Legalism, and of course Dao-de-jing is not Lao-zi’s writing. His follower wrote Dao-de-jing."

Yes, it's why I mentioned Li Dan, much throughout history has been written down by those who came later. To me, the processes that have been around for thousands of years have been more stable than words. Words most times are ambiguous, and many people assign meaning to ancient words, based on their modern day understanding/bias.

It's why I mentioned ancient processes earlier, one can challenge me in rhetoric all day long, but if I ask them to show me their process of understanding and they fail, then they are basically masters of rhetoric - a player in a game who is unaware of the process - the actively unaware.

Zen: "When Emperor said “I am Dianzi (God’s Son) and I have Dianming (God’s Order) so you must obey!” Dao Master replied, “I am Dianzi too so why must I obey you and your Dianming?”, and that impolite answer certainly made every Emperor very angry."

Romanized pinyin is tricky. I agree, emperors want people to follow, not ask questions. That would be fine, if the emperors weren't the ones many times, trying to be the masters of rhetoric :-)

Critical thinkers are not well liked by Emperors, or political leaders, because they criticize without pause, when something is out of balance.

We find balance within ourselves, and balance brings out mastery. Through the master of ourselves, we find balance within our universe.

Zen: "Dave, thank you for your explanation that makes everyone in this blog knows better what the idea that I try to express. You know that my English is very bad. LOL."

Your English is surprisingly good :-) I think you have presented your thoughts well, and your knowledge of history. hé píng

Zen said...

Dave:

Speaking of tradition Dao, I understand that self knowledge is praised, by that there is much criticism for one attempting to reach or use rationalization :-) Do you agree with that view?

Actually, it is said by some, that the banishment of wisdom and knowledge will bring someone benefit a hundredfold. If knowledge is associated to "desire", then it diminishes the value. The ancients believed that the rise of intelligence and rationalization was the beginning of the downfall for humanity... is that your perception in regard to the great artifice of civilizations?

Zen:

If you read all my comments that I have brought, you will know that I reject the banishment of wisdom and knowledge. In the contrary, I believe the rise of intelligence and rationalization will be the beginning of the peak of human civilizations. I have mentioned before that Chinese civilization was the result of “skeptical and natural” persons (like Fuxi Shennong, Huangdi, etc). “Skeptical and natural” means “using brain, intelligence, rational thinking, or whatever terms with same meaning.

It is always amazing me why most of people in this world don’t use their brains optimally. And after I search this amazing fact, I think I know the answer: the RELIGION had paralyzed their brains (with the FEAR of DEATH or HELL). And at least great ancient Greek historian Polybius (203-120 BC) agreed with me.

“HELL is useless to sages, but necessary to the BLIND and BRUTAL populace.” Polybius

That’s why my mission in this world is to paralyze all religions, the cause of paralyzed brains, the cause of human stupidity. At least Eugene Wesley Roddenberry (1921-1991), the STRATREK writer, agreed with me.

“Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, RELIGION is nothing more than a substitute for a MALFUNCTIONING BRAIN.” Gene Roddenberry (1921-1991)

My priority is to paralyze Middle East religions first, because they are very cruel. Please note again I don’t hate persons but I hate cruel ideologies. I don’t want to kill persons but I really want to kill cruel ideologies. For me Middle East religion is the peak of stupidity and cruelness because of their Jihad, Crusade, and Jewish-superiority-complex. Believe me, as long as these cruel religions/cults exist there will be no PEACE in this earth.

“...the whole batch of religions with their aims and claims are a barrier to world PEACE. Religion does not unite people. It divides them. Religion is …a stumbling block to world PROGRESS.” G. Vincent Runyon, 1959, ex Christian Priest, an atheist.

In Buddhism, there’s a parable that Buddha try to pull the children out of “demonic” house. These children love to play in the house; they don’t know that the house is full with wild beasts. Buddha pulled these children out from the house and then burned the demonic house to dust. But then the children asked Buddha to build new house like the old one. Well, this parable opens my eyes widely, that Buddha actually did not want to build a religion! When I read history of Buddhist scriptures, I found that these scriptures were written two hundred till four hundred years after Buddha.

“Religion can never reform mankind, because religion is SLAVERY. It is far better to be free, to leave the forts and barricades of fear, to stand erect and face the future with a smile. It is far better to give yourself sometimes to negligence, to drift with wave and tide…TO FORGET ALL GODS, THEIR PROMISES AND THREATS, to feel within your veins life’s joyous stream… the rhythmic beating of your fearless heart. And then to rouse yourself to do all useful things … to look with trained and steady eyes for facts…TO DEVELOP THE BRAIN…To utter honest words, to love liberty, to wage relentless war against slavery in all its forms, to love wife and child and friend, TO LOVE NATURE …to cultivate courage and cheerfulness…. to destroy prejudice, to receive new truths with gladness … to do the best that can be done and then to be resigned--this is the religion of REASON… This satisfies the BRAIN and HEART. Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899), the Great Father of American Agnostic.

So my question about Tripitaka is like Bible or Koran: WHO wrote these scriptures? A business man! A politician! Islam or Christianity for example is a POLITIC that mixes with RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION (the concept of Jihad/Darussalam, Crusade/ Christian State). Judaism or Nazi-ism is a POLITIC that mixes with RACIAL DISCRIMINATION. That’s my finding. And at least M.M. Managasarian (Independent Religious Society of Chicago) agreed with me

“If you may keep religion in the dark, and cry "hush," "hush," when people ask that it be brought out into the light, why may not POLITICS or BUSINESS cultivate a similar partiality for darkness? If the king cries, "rebel," when a citizen asks for justice, it is because he has heard the priest cry, "infidel," when a member of his church asked for evidence.” Mangasar Magurditch Mangasarian (1859 – 1943), ex Christian Priest.

It is really stupid to believe holy books without critical thinking! That’s why I don’t believe 100% with holy scriptures because I know they are a mix of good and bad. Everytime I read a holy book, I try to separate the good from the bad. And I find that the goodness of every holy book is the teaching of HUMANITY, COMPASSION, and REASON. That’s all! Very simple!

And it is amazing me why most of people don’t know this simple Truth. And they fight each other because of their God and forget humanity, compassion, and reason! Suicide bombers, suicide “911/WTC” attackers, etc, (you can add other crazy actions).

I have an advice to your country (USA), why doesn’t USA prohibit Islam? Because Islam is actually a politic ideology just like KKK or Nazi-ism. Both Islam and Neo-Nazi/KKK can not assimilate with society they live among. Both make a lot of terrors in the society.
Doesn’t your government know that there is no single church in Saudi Arabia? Doesn’t your government know that Bible is forbidden in Saudi Arabia? Your government must fight back Saudi Arabia with prohibition of Islam, Mosque, and Koran in the entire USA as long as Saudi Arabia prohibits Christianity, Church, and Bible in the whole Saudi Arabia. But I know your government will not hear my advice because of OIL! What a big business!

I hope 20 years later, when oil era is gone, USA will prohibit Islam. Or I hope 20 years later, Saudi Arabia will fall down, because of poverty and lack of scientists. It is my prophecy based on my brain.

Hey, USA, hear me! It is useless and too expensive (1 TRILLION DOLLAR OF NEW DEBT!) to fight terrorism without knowing that ISLAM or KORAN is the source of TERROISM. Koran is like Bible, both are the source of cruelness and inhumanity. USA, you must prohibit Islam and Koran and you will survive! Or you will die because of this most barbaric Middle East religion! Islam is the enemy of Democracy and Liberty because Islam hates you (USA) and wants to build Authoritarian Islamic State all over the world and oppress the freedom of speech (that criticize KORAN).

Remember the rise of cruel cult Islam and the fall of great civilization of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, and Turk by Islam. Remember Crusade War that saved Europe from Islam. Study history well.

I know there are a lot of intelligent people in the USA. Why most of people in USA and in this world are still dumb? Because of the dumber: Middle East Religions! Leave them! Use your Reason! Time to make these cruel religions/cults a history! And at least Thomas Paine agreed with me.

“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church (=Judaism), by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church (=Islam), by the Protestant church, nor by any church (=religion) that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
The Jews say, that their Word of God (=TORAH) was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God (=BIBLE) came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (=KORAN) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I DISBELIEVE THEM ALL.
THE WORLD IS MY COUNTRY, TO DO GOOD MY RELIGION.”
Thomas Paine (1737-1809) THE AGE OF REASON

Happy New Year 2007 and Best Wishes for you, your family, and your great country, Dave.

Dave8 said...

Zen: "Happy New Year 2007 and Best Wishes for you, your family, and your great country, Dave."

Thank you for your words, they have been inspiring. I will think upon your last post, and return to respond eventually. I just need some time to recharge/refocus...

Well wishes and regards to your family for the upcoming year. I will let my wife know of your kind words, hopefully, I'll be home before next New Year... Until then, I'll share the snow and beauty of your great country's mountains with you. Hé píng bing zi ran jie (Peace with Nature).

Anonymous said...

what ask this question do we men know what out in the world or you can say what is truth we men should not fought among each other for power we need to work with nature and to awaking our true power we have

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