Recovering Evangelicoholic
sent in by Billy Wheaton
I guess I have spent the last twenty years in a state of intermittent bewilderment over how many very bright Evangelical Christians that I know. Eventually, a discussion transpires that sends me on a litany of challenges that are virtually never taken seriously and repetitiive. So, I decided to start a web site and write a book. My purpose was two-fold.
First, I wanted to put together the evidence that I knew that I found myself repeating over and over again. I have just started and some of this is at billywheaton.com
Second, and most important, I needed to figure out why so many very bright people refuse to confront their "faith" and desperately need their "faith" to feel intellectually valid. My research has led me to two major conclusions:
1) Evangelical Christian truly do not see or feel any harm that may come from their belief in Biblical inspiration and inerrancy. Thus, even if one cannot easily validate their faith, the vast majority of Evangelical Christians feel continuing to behave as an Evangelical Christian benefits them and benefits society. Ex-Christians and non Christians have strong arguments for why this approach fits the evidence and promotes honest debate, but weak at showing true harm in remaining an Evangelical Christian. This area of showing harm needs attention.
2) Evangelical Christians have behavior patterns that closely mimic someone with a serious addiction. Thus, showing intellectual reasons and harm will change little. After all, we all recognize that telling a smoker he is "stupid" and "killing himself" does not usually get the smoker to quit. We need to help these poor lost people QUIT the HABIT!
P.S. I'm stunned at how many thoughful ex-Christian people I have read about on the web. I hope to learn from you. Where have you been for the last 20 years!
billywheaton from billywheaton.com
cinci
oh
usa
joined: 11
left: 21
was: CMA, evangelical
now: one day at a time
converted because: thought it seemed like a good way to live
de-converted because: the evidence became simply overwhelming
email: billy at billywheaton dot com
I guess I have spent the last twenty years in a state of intermittent bewilderment over how many very bright Evangelical Christians that I know. Eventually, a discussion transpires that sends me on a litany of challenges that are virtually never taken seriously and repetitiive. So, I decided to start a web site and write a book. My purpose was two-fold.
First, I wanted to put together the evidence that I knew that I found myself repeating over and over again. I have just started and some of this is at billywheaton.com
Second, and most important, I needed to figure out why so many very bright people refuse to confront their "faith" and desperately need their "faith" to feel intellectually valid. My research has led me to two major conclusions:
1) Evangelical Christian truly do not see or feel any harm that may come from their belief in Biblical inspiration and inerrancy. Thus, even if one cannot easily validate their faith, the vast majority of Evangelical Christians feel continuing to behave as an Evangelical Christian benefits them and benefits society. Ex-Christians and non Christians have strong arguments for why this approach fits the evidence and promotes honest debate, but weak at showing true harm in remaining an Evangelical Christian. This area of showing harm needs attention.
2) Evangelical Christians have behavior patterns that closely mimic someone with a serious addiction. Thus, showing intellectual reasons and harm will change little. After all, we all recognize that telling a smoker he is "stupid" and "killing himself" does not usually get the smoker to quit. We need to help these poor lost people QUIT the HABIT!
P.S. I'm stunned at how many thoughful ex-Christian people I have read about on the web. I hope to learn from you. Where have you been for the last 20 years!
billywheaton from billywheaton.com
cinci
oh
usa
joined: 11
left: 21
was: CMA, evangelical
now: one day at a time
converted because: thought it seemed like a good way to live
de-converted because: the evidence became simply overwhelming
email: billy at billywheaton dot com
Comments
I've been talking to people on a christian forum recently. My question started on miracles but spread out on to a lot of tangents. Their answers whenever I tried to prove to them that there was no real reason to believe in God?
Can you guess?
It was:
"I know in my heart that God is real, and I pray he will soften your heart so that one day you will know it too."
Sigh.
Why? Because I think I agree with Richard Dawkins about religion being a mental virus. And one of the reasons it's a successful one is because it has a self-protective mechanism: it alters the victim's thinking to make blind faith a desirable state of mind, the more attractive and sincere because of a lack of evidence.
Welcome!
Billy: "We need to help these poor lost people QUIT the HABIT!"
People will always naturally have questions, without "answers", thus, no answers to a human, equals "anxiety"... I think we all have a normal level of anxiety placed upon us in this life...
Religions, take the normal levels of "anxiety", and "magnify" them by exploiting our natural "questions" in life, based on the human condition, i.e,. death, etc...
They further "add", anxiety, by "calling into question", what is "Natural", i.e., masturbation, etc., etc. They replace Natural behaviors and actions, with "UnNatural" solutions...
When evangelicals or anyone absorbs these tethers of "anxiety", they immediately seek "relief"... Religion, has created the "solution" for the "anxiety", however, by acceptance of the "solution", one becomes indebted via "ritual, loyalty, and allegiance", to the cause of the religion that provided them that comfort... hence, keep the Sabbath day holy, and "see you next week at church to further our cause", etc...
If natural anxiety is removed, religion is no longer necessary as the patent solution... This is difficult for many elderly, who have imbedded the "solution" in their minds for years... There are ways to remove the anxiety, but it is more of an art than a science, as each person has associated their "anxiety", to events, objects, etc., in their life differently...
The real addiction... is "Relief"... but that is Natural... The real tragedy, is that religion creates a bait and switch "relief" solution... where in the long run, the original relief gains... are far drowned out, by the "anxiety" produced...
Churches and religions of late, know this formula either consciously or unwittingly, but they are reacting to the charge... The more "mindful" churches just tend to "remind" people of their anxiety every now and then to prevent pushing their followers too far into "anxiety", where the solution becomes less valuable because of the additional anxiety gained... Then there are those who can't use their "mind", because they buy the bible as inerrant, and therefore don't have choices in life, and they are the ones to push "anxiety" openly and hard, and it causes the religious member to ascertain whether the "solution" to the natural "anxiety" via religion is more worth the "additional" anxiety...
Many secular psychology clinics can provide solutions to the basic "anxiety" we all have in life without the additional baggage piled on... Religions have seen this... and thus, have entered into the game of cutting off their followers from the secular solution, by hiring or accepting help with "counseling" in a variety of different areas...
Making people aware of their Natural anxiety, and providing an "honest" assessment to them and how they fare with the basic human condition is the beginning of religious recovery... assisting them, is providing them non-damaging solutions via education etc., without requiring a "blood sacrifice", i.e., themselves, is in everyones' best interest... Hope to see you around on the boards, take care...
"Because I think I agree with Richard Dawkins about religion being a mental virus. And one of the reasons it's a successful one is because it has a self-protective mechanism: it alters the victim's thinking to make blind faith a desirable state of mind, the more attractive and sincere because of a lack of evidence."
In a sense then, believing blindly, and going along with the crowd, and following the leader can be seen as a survival characteristic. It has become embedded in our DNA. But.
I think we are at a milestone in our evolutionary progress, where we must discard the mythological sources of confidence, because "My God is better than your God," thinking just may lead to a nuclear conflict that would pollute the earth and make it uninhabitable for us.
If we can't get a CHURCH OF RATIONALITY going, and convert people from the pagan religions that are dividing us, the end may be near. You can see it in the almost wishful thinking of the fundamentalists, who see every geopolitical event, and natural disaster as proof that Armageddon is right around the corner. They are literally slobbering over the events in the Near East. They have all but quit trying to make a success out of this life, and have visions of themselves up there in the sky, singing hymns and kissing Gods feet forever.
We can use every brave person we can recruit, to put a stop to this insanity. Those who have the ability to think outside the box need to dedicate their intelligence to the banner of common sense. We need to quit being politically correct when the Pat Robertson's, Benny Hinns, Billy Grahams, and George Bushes, try to make us believe they talk to God. More people need to laugh these clowns off of their pedestals.
Dano (Seventy year old rationalist, who has learned from the regulars on this site)
Thank-you for your post you are right on the money,
peace,.. freedy
p.s.,..look forward to seeing your site
Hey Dano, I agree, sad thing is that many grow up in areas with little to no job market, and thus, have role model pastors, etc., as their "goal". Then, we have universities that grant degrees in mythology under the name theology, so that the academically qualified graduates can make "more money". This "more money" and "prestige" in the community, has become what many consider "success" growing up.
Hopefully, children can be taught in the next decade what "success" is in life, and provide them an outlet by which they can "succeed" to the benefit of humanity and not the detriment. I have learned from others on this site also, nothing like seeing different points of view to get a richer understanding of a topic :-) Take it easy...
I want to scream at these religious robots.......
I mean. Come on Jesus addicts! How hard is it to see the fundamental ridiculousness of virtually every religious concept in the Bible. Take the cure folks. Quit talking about your relationship with a dead man. Just the concept of God, making Mary (a virgin) pregnant in order to have a baby so it can be sacrificed to him, to atone for "sin" that he created in the first place, is so patently silly, that you would have to shut down your rational mind in order to ingest it. Never mind that you can see virtually the same story in almost every Pagan religion (Just change the names of the characters)
GIVE ME A BREAK. Shit! Even if the story did make any sense up to the point of the crucifixion. What the hell is the big deal about dying when you know you are the son of God, and are going to come back to life in three days, and sit on a throne next to God, or be God, or whatever the hell the trinity means.
Dano (Seventy year old rationalist, who has learned from the regulars on this site, and lives in a log cabin in NC)
I like your "degrees in mythology under the name theology" Maybe every time we see a preacher on this site bragging about his theology degree we could tell him how impressed we are with his degree in "Mythology"
Dano, (Seventy year old rationalist, who has learned from the regulars on this site, and lives in a log cabin in NC)
Please accept my humble, newbie welcome to this group!
You Said:
P.S. I'm stunned at how many thoughful ex-Christian people I have read about on the web. I hope to learn from you. Where have you been for the last 20 years!
Talk about the Information Super-Highway! I've been searching for a "support group" for people suffering the effects of fundamentalism for a long time. Eureka! I Found It!
Dave8, Dano, ALL you guys! You're really on a role today! It makes me want to put all of this information and quotes into a handbook for the recovering "Evanelicoholic".
This is better than a support group.
Christianity, especially mainstream Christianity, is really just a cult. It's the most popular cult that has ever existed.
People don't see it as a cult because they don't realize that harm is being done to them -- taking away their identities and choices in life. When you are being manipulated by guilt and emotion to do or not to things, it is control. If you don't do things because you're afraid of going to hell, it's control. If you do things because you think they'll send you to heaven, it's also control. Hell = whip, heaven = carrot.
These days, most churches don't use the whip of fire & brimstone hell very much, but even when they use the golden carrot of heaven to control their flocks, it's still a form of mind control.
Most people also don't realize that they've been brainwashed because they've been in the church for their whole lives. When something like that has been done over a long period of time and you've been taught not to question it, then you're not going to question it unless a life-changing event, like someone close to you dying despite praying hard, leads to doubt. And the cult has failsafes to program you to keep believing, like "It was all in god's plan." Ever hear that old cliche'? Or "We shouldn't question god's motives." Or, the one I detest the most because it's the worst copout ever, "Everything happens for a reason."
When you've got that kind of brainwashing and mind control going on over a period of centuries, no wonder the cult hasn't died out yet. The only thing that'll replace it is a cult with stronger brainwashing techniques. That, or the opposite -- rationality and logical thinking, but I can't see that happening anytime soon.
When children and even adults have their "anxiety" controls set up a few notches, their mind and body clocks in and adjusts to balance the additional stress, either through rationalization, repression, etc.
The mind has to reconfigure when major changes take place, and it affects everything down to physical health. Abrupt stops and starts on a car engine will blow the engine over time, its the same with the mind. Once a child has their "anxiety" controls set on "high", because of religious rhetoric, etc., they conform, and trying to get them to drop their anxiety level is actually just as traumatic mentally.
There are many people who conform to their work environment in high stress jobs, and their most vulnerable time to have a heart attact is immediately after retirement. The reduced stress in a shock to their system. The only healthy way to nurture people away from "unhealthy" stress, is to slowly increase their logical reasoning so that over time, their subconscious can slowly work through the information, and prepare themselves for the mental escape. Good hearing from you, take care...
The christian god YHWH, per the Jews was Supreme God, doing all the evil and good, and there was no eternal tormenting hell per se.
When the New Testament was placed alongside the Old Testament, YHWH got a partner, Satan, who explained why people were tempted and unable to be "perfect", hence the scene in the garden of eden to provide a visual example.
With the original YHWH, all the Jews didn't mourn any longer than 12 months by tradition as they didn't believe anyone spent any more than 12 months away from heaven.
To show this;
"QUESTION: Do Jews believe in Satan?
ANSWER: In Christian belief, Satan is a fallen angel that has freedom of choice and rebels against G-d. Judaism's view is very different. Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 13 show that G-d created the temptation to do evil to test our loyalty. That is why the word (Satan--) in Hebrew literally means an adversary (Numbers 22:22) that comes to challenge us. Our mission is to overcome these temptations and do what is correct. The Torah (Genesis 4:7) teaches that this mission is within our ability to fulfill."
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_faq.html
Therefore, christians who accept the New Testament and Satan, never "really" know if their loved one is in heaven or hell. Hell was brought into the picture as a means to satisfy those with local cultures who believed in an underworld and antagonist god. In the christian tradition, a dying loved one "never" knows the will of god and whether its heaven of hell for them, a perpetual "never-ending" cycle of anxiety.
With a Universal god, if a persons' loved one dies, the "god" is to blame, however, the Jews didn't believe god interfered with mortal affairs, and if he were to be involved, he would send a mortal Messiah in flesh to do his bidding.
Interestignly, I have never heard of a pastor, preacher, clergy, etc., during a funeral come close to mentioning the deceased as being doomed to hell. Its a joke, its always the same, when a christian is living the pastor is telling them they are possibly heading for some eternal hell, once they die, its all about heaven.
If someone were to walk up to a pastor right after a funeral, and ask them how they know the deceased is in heaven, they'd get a blank stare or some political sidestepping. I understand trying to be nice during the day of someones' funeral, and the pastor, clergy, etc, portraying the death in a "good" light and ultimately beneficial for the deceased, but that's because the funeral is more for the survivors as its meaningless for the deceased. The pastors have to give a "carrot" to all those people who show up that they too can receive heaven. All the while, the pastor has no flippin' clue one way or the other.
Its that continual, "who knows", type of belief system that allows the morals, ethics, and everything else to run rampant in christianity. Many christian denominations have their own unique formula for how a person is saved and will receive heaven, but there isn't "one" formula that unites them all. Have a great one...
If you're looking for information about how to defend and explain living a life with no Imaginary Best Friend to make things better, the best recommendation I can make is the Ebon Musings wesbite. I has a selection of very good essays which cover all aspects of atheism. Clear, well-organised and good arguments. It covers things like:
* The possibility that Jesus never existed and the evidence or lack of it.
* Refuting Pascal's Wager (which is when Christians say "You should be a Christian, because if you're right then no problem, but if I'm right then you'll go to hell."
* The illogic of heaven, hell and the Bible.
* An essay refuting the main arguments for theism - Kalaam, teleological, ontological, etc.
* absurdities and contradictions in the Bible...
...and much more! Enjoy!
You Said: "When you were a believing christian do you think your life was better then, than it is now as an atheist/agnostic?" Remember, many of us here had no choice in the matter - it was forced upon us at a very young age. How does the Buddhist line go: "a fish does not question water, it is all he knows". That is why I think christianity is child abuse.
Dave8:
"Eleanor Rigby died in the church and was buried along with her name
Nobody came
Father McKenzie wiping the dirt from his hands as he walks from the grave
No one was saved"
Oh, here is one of my favorite christian "moral values". Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven. That's right, the guy who seduced gay black men to his house for "dinner" is sitting at the right hand of God. Apparently, Jeffrey confessed his sins, said the sinner's prayer, got "SAVED" and everything is forgiven. My dad, a nice guy who never hurt anyone as a non-practicing Catholic, is bound for hell - go figure!!!
After reading my last post, if you didn't read "Been There, Got the T-shirt", you might be a little confused by what I said. My mom was the fundamentalist - she was the Carrie's Mother in the household. My dad's only failure was not stopping her, or paying attention to what was happening to my sister and me. He stayed lost in his nonpracticing Catatonic (I mean Catholic) state.
The position is not tenable, the only one who could possible create such a code, would be one who is omniscient, and has deriven humanities' purpose in "existence". Again, good information to peruse, but one needs to read into the implications of the essays. I only looked at this one essay.
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html#part3
Just for clarification, the Jews' God YHWH "DID" interfere in the mortals' lives, the great flood, yadda, yadda. Point was that when the Jews were getting screwed with, they knew it was "their" god, and if they kept screwing things up, god would send them a mortal messiah to set things straight, which, at this time, hasn't happened as they are not living in paradise on earth. Still, that is much better than having the christian dynamic duo gods, YHWH and Satan, and never knowing which one is at work.
"Hi Again,
Ive got a question for ex-christians because ur the only ones who can really anser this.
As an atheist I have haad the misconception against me that my world is cold and empty and meaningless and the christian way of life is better.
This is very upsetting because I dont feel this way."
Luci. I feel an obligation to give you my take on this, because when I became a "Born Again Ex-Christian" I also had mixed emotions. I haven't struggled with the problem of "WHAT, AM I GOING TO DO NOW THAT I DON'T HAVE JESUS AND GOD TO APPEAL TO ANYMORE," an awful lot because I have always been a skeptic. I did spend many years off and on asking God to give me this or that though.
My break through came with the Internet and discovering that there are millions of folks out there who had the same doubts and questions as I did. I discovered that there are people who can express those questions and doubts better than I could. I have come to accept the fact that I am intellectually lazy, but have also come to realize that my natural instinct to be skeptical of fanciful things and magic, has saved me from the virus of religion.
If you apply "Occam's Razor" (one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything), or as they say in AAA (Keep it simple), you may come to the same level of mental homeostasis that I have.
I just don't think God is judging us on our philosophical musings. I don't think he was judging the Neanderthals, or the billions of sub species of man that preceded us. I don't think he is condemning the child who has never heard of Christ. I don't think he is judging retarded, moronic, and imbecilic people who can't understand Biblical concepts. I don't think he is judging the sick, malformed, ugly and otherwise unfortunate people, or any other living creature here on earth. Why would "the force" that made us the way we are, condemn us?
What I do believe is that we, who can never swallow the ancient mystical belief systems anymore, and cannot be intimidated by the Shamans who would try to rule us with them, are at an advantage, because no one can threaten us with all of the silly, paganistic, Illogical, concepts like, the Devil, sin, not going to heaven, going to hell, etc., any more.
All that empowers you with is a freedom to live this life in the best way that you can, without the guilt that the church has ruled people with for so long. It doesn't make us better than the Jesus freaks, and bible thumpers, it just makes us luckier.
Dano (Seventy year old rationalist, who has learned from the regulars on this site, and lives in a log cabin in NC)
You Said:
"Bob, i know you didnt have a choice in being a christian but when you were did you enjoy your life more then, than you do now?"
Make no mistake about it, my life as a "forced" christian was a living hell. I cannot adequately exlain the elation that has come over me with the knowledge that I am not a pawn for some good or evil force to move around.
Everyone has crazy thoughts that enter their mind from time to time. I've learned that it is a natural thing that comes from the recesses of your mind. They aren't inspired evil, it is just "stuff". You can dismiss it or you can obsess over it, such as feelings of your own eminent death.
I would worry that the devil was entering my body and controlling my mind! I had been plaqued by a defeatist attitude and depression!!! Why didn't God remove this plaque? Because he didn't put it there. I just let my mind carry me to a destructive place. I didn't own it, so how can I expect a force to remove it?
Please understand, that for them, it is a about CONTROL! They use FEAR (you know, "He is a God Fearing Man") to keep you in line. When they can control your body and your thougths (ALA Orwell's "Thought Police") - they have you in a strangle hold. You are open to sexual repression, feelings of inadequacies that is intended to make you feel unworthy of success, and to open your pocketbook and personal schedule to their manipulation.
When you join the military, you enter into a contract with the U.S. government. They own your body for an agreed period of time. They can legally destroy you. They can order you into a situation that will get you killed - you know it, they know it and there is nothing you can do about it. They have used that excuse for doing medical experimentaion on soldiers.
When you "sign your contract" (give your heart over to Jeeesuuus) with the christian leaders, you give them your body AND your mind. They have a blank check with your life. Do you understand what I am saying? They will use you until there is nothing left.
You Said:
"Im also confused by the fact that if a christian dies they dont know if they are going to heaven or hell. I though if they acknowledge and worship God and ask for forgiveness for their sins then they supposedly go to heaven."
It should be crystal clear. Consider the premise that Jeffrey Dahmer is now going to heaven because he said the "sinner's prayer" before he died. That is a certainty in Christian belief. Just follow a simple series of statements, essentially confessing your sins, repent and ask for Jesus to enter your heart, and you are "in like Flint". No question, Jeffrey Dahmer (you know, the mass murderer / cannibal) went to heaven (according to them).
The problem begins when you are informed that you can become a "back-sliding" christian. Go too far and you can loose your salvation. According to them, I have crossed the line. I have lost my salvation. Anytime that you are not being the "christian that you can be", you are a backslider. So, who's interpretation? Anyone who wants to call you a backslider! Get it! It is ALL ABOUT CONTROL!!!
I say it again:
I was born OK, the first time
Luci, you only live on this earth once (unless you believe the Buddha). You have one shot. Don't let someone steal it from you!
I just read your post and all the rest, this site is fascninating. My web site is relatively new and trying to figure it out as I go. Yet, your comment concerns me. Why, because my purpose of showing belief in biblical inerrancy to be the linch-pin for Evangelical Christianity. The link to Willow Creek show how important this belief to inerrancy is to Evangelicals. Inerrancy shows at the top of nearly all Evangelical Christian doctrines. The truth is whether Jesus was real or not, I think he is a fascinating character who might be worthy of emulating. So might Winston Churchill, Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Dalai Lama, etc. I'm not writing on my site billywheaton .com for Exchristian but for christians. I've been X for too long now though, and realize most will never have any contrary thought entire there mind without having some ritual cleansing mechanism - like prayers or chants of bible verses. I know christians believe like this, don't let yourself fall into this rush to judgment trap. After all, why are you afraid?
Sincerely, Xchristian who hates rash judgments in all forms.
billy from billy wheaton. com
Indeed, the first FIRST lines of my website are:
Evangelical Christians fervently believe that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Most are convinced that no successful refutation has ever been given. Yet, even a cursory review of evidence about the Bible shows precious little to support the claims made by Evangelical Christians. As well, an overwhelming amount of evidence clearly refutes Evangelical claims of Biblical inerrancy (Inerrancy means without error). The evidence puts this belief in the realm of fantasy. Despite the evidence, Evangelical Christians elevate the belief of Biblical inerrancy to the highest level of importance. Indeed, “Teaching straight from the Word of God” conveys the highest level of approval from an Evangelical Christian. But, this view of Biblical inerrancy remains highly vulnerable. To protect this belief, Evangelical Christians engage in a whole host of activities to avoid an open and honest discourse on their views about the Bible. These behaviors, I will show, are profoundly harmful to the individual and society. This harm is difficult for many Evangelical Christians to comprehend or accept. In order to sustain their belief in Biblical inerrancy, many Evangelical Christians will unwittingly behave like someone with a serious addiction.
I agree now, the Willow Creek link could be misleading as a criticism it is well taken, but if I want blanket close minded rationalisations, I'll go back to church. No thanks.
Do I sound bitter. Well after all these years it still pisses me off.
WHAT WE BELIEVE as quoted:
The mission of Willow Creek Community Church is to turn irreligious people into fully devoted followers of Jesus Christ.
The sole basis of our belief is the Bible, which is uniquely God-inspired, without error, and the final authority on all matters on which it bears. As the Bible teaches, there is one God, eternally existing in three persons — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — each possessing all the attributes of a diety.
With you as a regular guest speaker.
Either you have the wrong websight here, or you are a confused person.
I would be willing to bet that most persons posting on this websight, me included, do not ascribe to the bible and it's teachings neither do we link any god with the written word.
We believe that the bible is the inspired works of man, fear driven men, with a world view of over 2000 years ago. Having this belief does not in anyway make us unmorale, as most christians would have one to believe.
There is not a person that has ever walked the great Earth or lived, that did not know right from wrong, from day one, every person born has the instilled knowledge from birth, of right from wrong, some people tend to ignore this knowledge and do very bad things, some get away with it and some have to pay the price with laws of the land. You can call this built in knowledge from god or a god if you want to, but there cannot be a bible god that lives in a book and taken from a book written down by a man.
There cannot be a god that has predestined every movement, every thought, every living being and leave his thoughts and devises to a faulty human, thats why you say it's errant, we say it's all errant, not one word can be depended upon as being the absolute truth.
If there is a unique creator, this creator has all knowledge, all things, all knowledge, already packaged with the product, why create the whole universe and inspire a work to be done, leaving questions, errors, instilling hatred, allowing different denominations, unanswered questions, unbelievable tales, talking snakes, virgin births, etc.?
We refuse to believe that there exist a god this stupid. I'm sorry Mr. Wheaton, but I think you got alot of mental and physical work to do before you can come on a exchristian website and try to convince us that your bible god may be in error, but yet that we must believe that Jesus was god in disquise, and that we must believe just the true parts that you suggest that we believe. Good Day !
"Friday, January 13, 2006
Francis Schaeffer, Like Bible, "Inspired by God," Dr. James Dobson declares!
Dr. James Dobson identifies new gospel that he believes “God inspired”. Dr. James Dobson, describing Francis Schaeffer’s 1982 recorded message at Coral Ridge Baptist Church in Florida, says, “I believe is inspired by God.” This of course is great news as inspired literature and media constitutes the works of the Bible. God, yes God, God the Almighty God inspired Francis Schaeffer’s speech! Let us all spread this news! Twenty-three years have passed and all have not heard the new Gospel! You can listen here
Brought to you by BillyWheaton from BillyWheaton.com
billy@billywheaton.com
posted by Billy Wheaton @ 3:05 PM 3 comments"
Hey (the real) Ex-Christians,
Dr. James Dobson!?! Focus on the family James Dobson? Who are you kidding, Billy? Everyone, go to: http://www.family.org/. Dr. James Dobson is one of the biggest assholes around, right up there with Pat Robertson. This clown is a regular on right-wing radio programs and contributes material to right-wing talkradio stations.
How else can I take this? Are a "wolf in sheep's clothing"? I really don't get you. You can take your James Dobson, your compassionate-conservative (or are you some kind of compassionate-christian - another oxymoron) babble, and find the door, sir!
Believe it or not, I don't think most Evangelical realize how much time, effort and money goes into propping up this belief.
The Dr. Dobson link shows just how ridiculous calling the Bible "inspired" is as this prominent Evangelical Dr Dobson throws it around on old tape recordings. It is insane to think that tape was inspired by god. But, as I'm trying to appeal to Evangelical to see the harm of this view, I felt leaving it linger in their thoughts to provide more opportunity for ego-dystonic thoughts.
As well, you can read what I feel about biblical inerrancy in a long essay on my website at billywheaton.com/mission.html
Regardless, I've used your derision to improve my site, as you could check. Of course, your thought would be more appreciated if not harshly and rashly judgmental. But, I was an Evangelical Christian long enough to be used to that kind of Shit.
Thanks again billywheaton from billy wheaton.com
If a christian can't support the "fact", that jesus was a demi-god per the inerrant bible, then how do they remain "Christ"ians? Just curious, as it appears that you have to offer some alternative to the bible in order for the more orthodox christians to hold onto their faith.
This goes back, to the root of what makes a christian... a christian.
Dave8: Yes, is this guy promoting a non-evangelical version???
Billy: Your website looks the same. I don't have time to read all the way through to figure out if you are being "tongue-in-cheek".
In your original "story" you say that you are an "exchristian", may I assume that all christian faiths are potentially dangerous from your perspective?
We are good gatekeepers of what enters our mind, we learned the hard way. I've only been here a short time and the pattern suggests that the folks here get hit by all kinds of attacks by christians (some of the them trying to hide as something else.)
This place is becoming a support group for me. Imagine a support group for alcoholics. Now and then, the door swings open and people show-up. Some of them want to talk about the latest mixed drink, the great taste of wine, or how beer drinkers make better lovers. We are here to talk about the hurt and disgust we have because of the christian faith.
Your site has a lot to read and is pretty misleading. I don't have time to figure it out - I'm still trying to get through all of the posts on this site (an immediate concern of mine.) Excuse me if you took offense and your intentions are good.
If you want to attract extians, if you are looking to lure fundy christians then make your main page, WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS TRUE, or I LOVE JESUS, or JESUS SAVES, be sure to leave a space for the love offerings that you'll receive.
We've had so many christians come on here telling us that they know why we never accepted the bible as true, was because we were never saved in the first place.
I think that we can agree that the bible is bunk, the bible is the whiteman's fantasy book, passed down through the generations as being pure fact, there is no way that the bible could be pure fact.
I think you should state your postion and website more boldly and directly to the point, for what it's worth. Best Of Luck To Ya.
Anyway, I'm still likely too sesitive to attack of me personally as a ligitimate argument against my ideas or evidence.
I'm still scared of the potential horrors I could experience at the hand of manaical christians that u cannot possibly think I use my real name.
Billywheaton ironic combination of Billygraham and Wheaton College. Im a physician who practices in the rural south. My real identity and even minimal notoriety would be more then I want to deal with right now.
I'm sorry if im overly sensitive and hope to still find some sanity after all these years.
I like most of you found incredible personal inner peace when I decided to give up christianity for lent one year (Throwing the Baby out with the bath water, hehe. But I also felt alone. This site is virtually my first experience with previous christian that have truly been "born-again" as Xchristians
Peace out billywheaton
and Ben, I didnot know about this website when I first posted mine a few weeks ago. My site is intended to attract christians who are thinking about or ready to give up evangelical christianity addiction. But, maybe that should be stated more clearly on my web site
In truth, many of the orthodox christians I know, have had to forcefully detach themselves from this reality through reinforcement methods. Logic is one of the tools in the process of reinforcement, its typically used to rationalize the belief in the face of "all" the overwhelming evidence.
Logic is the tool... rationalization is the product. In order for Billy to remove the need for fundamentalists to require "evidence" to support their "faith", he will have to remove the logic "tool", or expose how rationalizing can become manipulated to produce ill effects. As there is no difference between rationalizing between those who want to commit murder, and those who can rationalize the illogical belief in an unprovable god.
There are many other reasons fundamentalists are in their state of mind. Many grow up, being exposed to an "authority" figure before they are tainted with illogical information. Therefore, these children look for "authority", as a pillar to support their castle of belief... as they can rationalize the rest away, as a matter of fact, I know many fundamentalists who haven't even studied their bible from a history perspective or from any other academic perspective.
However, they don't need to... they believe they have been given the inerrant bible, based on "authority", and one should "never" question authority. The fundamentalists I know, live in very rural areas and have had very strict upbringing with authoritative father figures.
My point with Billy was... in order to remove the bible in these fundamentalists' lives, he is going to have to give a "logical" reason, as they have logically associated authority with their belief, as to why they don't need to base their "faith", on "authority".
Its the "authoritative" foundation that transfers into society that is repugnant to many. In short, the fundamentalists typically "believe" that their religion is based on a "higher authority", and its that state of mind, that causes them to be "rigid" with others of divergent "faith", even within their "own" religion.
A liberal christian, who holds their "faith", totally based on "hope", and "desire" (an entirely different debate), is seen by the fundamentalist as "hurting" their cause, as the liberal christian can't stand on "personal authority", and still be a true christian, as fundamentalists don't believe anyone has the "authority" to qualify the bible or denounce the bible as the literal and inerrant word of a god.
So, in affect, the fundamentalists, based on their upbringing... logically support their faith based on "authority"... they associate "authority" to the "bible" as "self-authoritative", and whallah, a circular argument, i.e., 'the bible is the most authoritative (correct and valid), work by god on this earth, because the bible says so"...
If the fundamentalists are going to be "swayed", to confront their "faith", then there had better be a solution to their "authority complex". However, that would require de-programming and serious one-on-one counseling. And, of course, a person can't change if they don't see a problem.
To some fundamentalists, the questioning of "authority", is all inclusive... question the authority of the bible, you may as well be questioning the authority of their own parents. There is research on certain generations being more exposed and influenced by "authority", in more economically trying times in the U.S.
It would be interesting to see if there are christians are willing to accept that they have a belief, totally based on "faith", with no supporting "authority", besides their own personal "hope", and "desires". I still see that brand of thinking as, someone trying to fit their "reality", into a myth, and we all know that that leads to further despair in this reality.
Thanks again for staying with the process. I now understand that your website came before you found out about exchristians.net. It is apparent that your original intent was to engage in conversation with practicing evangelicals regarding the bible.
Some people here take a scholarly approach, some are more conversational. Either way, everyone makes themselves pretty clear on where they stand. I thought I understood your stand when I read it the first time. I looked at your site and then I got myself confused.
May we, finally, assume that you do not support any christian faith?
If there is anything to fear on this site, I venture to say, it isn't the exchristians. Now that the President feels he has the legal right to spy on Americans, I suspect it will be the christians who feel threatened by our presence - which you also seem to suspect. We really seem to be a friendly bunch - if I may include myself in "we" - I have looked over past posts to get a sense of the demeanor around here. I think that we are actually quite civil to the passing attackers. Try not to "project" their methods onto us.
Please accept again, my humble newbie welcome to the group.
There are internal pressures to push people to come up with reasons to validate their own beliefs, i.e., natural logic. There are external pressures to push people to accept a belief, based on "authority", and the reinforcement, to "not" question authority. But... there are also those, who are directly confronted by society, when they "attempt" to establish laws and policy that is against federal or state law.
Typically, those who are in the first two categories, if they kept their own belief to themselves then all would be well, for the most part. However, its not that easy. Many, fundamentalists, especially in the Texas area, are pushing bible study, etc., into the classrooms as elective credits, etc. They get away with it, because they list the course as an "elective", and its not mandated. These are the issues that call into question the motives of the blind followers of religion. The relentless, unending attack on civil liberties, and the right to "not" be exposed to religion, and when I say exposed, I mean, a child going to school having to walk past a bible class, and never being exposed to an alternative religious view in equal depth. The fundamentalists want to not only worship, they have a written goal of converting everyone to christianity, and that... is totally "authoritative"... they would like nothing more than to recreate the theocracy of Rome, in the U.S. Its that demeanor, that makes many stand up, and defend their right to "not" believe, and keep religion out of government and public education, etc.
The problem of course, is that if fundamentalists don't perpetuate their belief system, it will cease to exist, and therefore, they have their claws into anything that will keep their extreme views of religion alive. Its ironic, that the fundamentalists despise the liberal christians, as they see them as nothing but a stones' throw away from secularism. See ya' around...
I was writing a response to Billy when your post arrived. You bring up some really good points.
You Said: "To some fundamentalists, the questioning of "authority", is all inclusive... question the authority of the bible, you may as well be questioning the authority of their own parents."
How convenient it is to have a Commandment (no less) to honor your mother and father. Of course, "you shall place no god before me" bolsters the authority theme. They must cringe everytime they see a "Question Authority" bumper sticker go by.
You Said: "I know many fundamentalists who haven't even studied their bible from a history perspective or from any other academic perspective." That is that "educated idiot" detesting faction within the fundamentalists that I have referred to in past posts. Our Presidents' popularity with rural constituents is partly because of his intellectual laziness. He can't be bothered with reading important documents - neither can they.
You Said: "My point with Billy was... in order to remove the bible in these fundamentalists' lives, he is going to have to give a "logical" reason, as they have logically associated authority with their belief, as to why they don't need to base their "faith", on "authority"."
Billy has his hand's full. After the last invite, I hope that he can clarify his position here. Arguing with fundamentalists reminds me of the old adage "never argue with a four year old." They'll just keep going back to the same simple taped recording that continues to run through their brain.
It confounds me how they keep pointing to this "fact": that somehow, God would never allow a fallicy to have been slipped into the bible. From what I was taught, God would have killed anyone before they were successful. I was also taught that those who lead people away from salvation would be terminated by the "big guy". Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggert are still sucking air, hmmm...
Its a hard nut to crack psychologically, to remove the "its right because I said its right", mentality. All the abuse that goes on in rural communities, children grow up having to rationalize "why" they must do things or be treated poorly. Hence, they finally use logic to grab onto "authority", because mom and dad wouldn't do anything to hurt me. To call into question "authority", for many people who live in small rural southern states, its calling into question their treatment while growing up. In short, if the argument from authority is dispensed with, a person may revert back and have to face the "abuse", they received as a child, and sadly, its more painful for many than just continuing to "believe" and "rationalize", to keep them mentally balanced.
Yep, whoever is trying to un-repress a fundamentalists belief system, had better be prepared to conduct in-depth psychological counseling. An apt analogy, would be, the psychologist placing a temporary jack (something that is just as stable as "authority", perhaps trust in the psychologist, etc.), under the car (Cognitive Process), and then slowly removing the flat tire (illogical "authority" support, or "might makes it right"). Once the flat tire is removed, a new one has to be provided.
"Trust", is imperative, if a person is going to attempt one-on-one counseling. Writing a book, isn't going to do the trick, there has to be serious self-involvement in a deprogramming process. A person can't change, what they can't accept as a problem.
During a session, if a counselor attempts to "show" a person, their flawed past, the person is going to feel like they're being victimized.
Why? Because they are represing hurt, shame, guilt, and skeletons, and really what a counselor is asking the person to do, is un-repress all of that hurt, in order to live a less repressed life.
However, telling a victim of abuse, that they should open up, clean out the wound, and then tell them that they should still have the same belief? Me thinks, not a lot of people are going to see the effort worthy, why open up to all of that pain and suffering, to only return back with the same "fundamental" belief. The only possibility is to provide them with something totally new and different... pure logic and reasoning, and many hours of therapy.
Its kind of weird for me to think from an authority perspective, my personality has me living outside of the box. But, attempting to empathize, I can see that removal of "authority" in a persons' life, is like removing the "linch-pin", that keeps the person mentally anchored. I can see removing that linch-pin, as nothing short of pushing someone to a mental crisis. Slipping off the tethers we create as children to hold us to this reality, places a person in a state where no boundaries exist, and no attachment.
That is pure fear, its nothing short of asking a person who doesn't know how to swim, to puncture their inflatable liferaft while in the ocean, with no land in sight. Those who have been driven to lose the raft, and have broken past the barrier of attachment, seem to live a life less complex, especially in the natural areas of concern, i.e., death, etc. Still, it causes other concerns, like, how to interact with those in society who are still white-knuckling the raft with everything they're worth.
Perhaps, Billy will be able to find a way to guide them through the process of Letting Go, however, in that process, many attachments are no longer necessary, i.e., god(s).
I was originally making a website to deal with all the people I know who are still evangelical christians. For the most part, they are bright well educated people. Many are lawyers, doctors, politicians, etc. I found myself essentially beating my head against the wall. So, after a 20 year headache I decided to attempt to put my basic thought on a website and/or publish a book. I am nowhere near done. My intent was to be able to say, "if you want to talk about your 'faith,' then first read my website/book and then we can talk!" This would save me time, effort and frustation.
Many of these people who are my relatives. You cannot choose your parents, right?
Regardless, I have little hope of bringing an end to the insanity of evangelical christianity, but hope maybe a few people may benefit from my insights.
My site; billywheaton.com is specifically directed toward relatively bright group of evangelical christians who have the capacity to understand irony, abstract ideas (like ad hominem fallacies) and that their apologetics for their holy (as in many holes)bible holds no water. Obviously, the bible is as water tight as fish-net stockings.
My site is not directed toward non christians though I appreciate any insights u may have. But I don't expect at this early stage my arguments are water tight either.
My goal is to have my arguments and approach be first compassionate, as I think being hateful will get me nowhere. But, second I want my arguments to be, as my old first seargent used to say, "water tight like frog pus sy"
"I'm still scared of the potential horrors I could experience at the hand of manaical christians that u cannot possibly think I use my real name.
Billywheaton ironic combination of Billygraham and Wheaton College. Im a physician who practices in the rural south. My real identity and even minimal notoriety would be more then I want to deal with right now."
Fugedaboutit Doc. To understand and differentiate all of the subtle and not too subtle, thought processes required to become a "Born Again Ex-Christian" requires more sophistication of mind than about 90% of your southern neighbors will ever have. I live in North Carolina, where they still have "Blue Laws"
All of my neighbors are decent hard working people (or at least their parents were), The Baptist church has been the cult of choice here for a couple of hunert years. These people have been baptized in the church, been buried there, showed off their new clothes there, found their girlfriends and boyfriends there, and listened to their good OLE boys preach there, and in general the church has been the place where the elite meet to greet for a long time.
They like guns, NASCAR, and they elected Bush, because he said he was born again. They will tell you in a NY minute that they "Don't come from no dang monkey"
If you are going to spread the word, down south, that the Bible is one of the worst pieces of fiction ever written, you have an uphill battle.
Ps I just read what Ben posted while I was composing my offering, and observed that he said approximately the same thing that I did. I also thought it strange that these people were meeting in a church and praising God for the miracle of sparing the one guy who is in a coma. What the fuck did the other 12 guys do to die such a horrible death? Oh well, they are home now with Jesus, and don't have to live in this sinful world any more. Makes you want to puke, doesn't it?
Dano (Seventy year old rationalist, who has learned from the regulars on this site, and lives in a log cabin in NC)
Deeply indebted, I’m sure!
Cap'n Buck
Im sure u r a crischen man and feel reel good about it. So how bout u invite me to discuss r powerful god in the middle of yer cherch on sunday mornin. I'll giv ya a chance to accept that challenge. But, likely u wont even come back to this site and likely are a total coward. Not trying to be a hero Buck jus standin up to retard cowards like yerself.
billywheaton from billywheaton.com
Look everyone, another "drive-by preaching"
The guy probably won't come back, and why should he, he's already made you sink to his level.
You said:
"We're talking about mind control here, the most powerful weapon ever invented"
60 minutes had a piece on North Korea last Sunday, and the were showing very carefully edited shots of the 60th Birthday of the revolution or something.
Talk about brainwashing! They have millions of people so brainwashed that they are virtually indistinguishable from mass produced robots. TOTALLY SCARY!
It appears that they start indoctrinating people when they are infants to believe that the pot bellied little pervert who took over from his father is a God.
If God ever shows up here on earth, I hope he takes a trip to North Korea first.
Dan
I told my parents that if everyone stood up on Sunday and told the preacher that, they were not going to pay him any more money, he would walk out and say you'll have to find another preacher. They said you're probably right, but none of them would ever consider such a thing, that would be blastphemy and anarchy against god.
Religion is mind control, by manipulation through words written down in a book over 2000 years ago. TC
I thinking about it.freedy
Oatpaste not working for you anymore? Deep down at your core, you are one doubting Thomas.
I'm FREE----EEDY!!
( what bout you c'buck-o)
Most of us here no longer hold to the belief that the bible is the written word nor inspired word from any god, whereas you do, you still believe that garbage and you hold Billy Graham up on high.
You contend that the bible although inspired and errant, is the word from god and that Jesus's message is absolutely true.
We no longer believe that garbage, you're trying to get people to believe that Jesus was real, but just some parts of the bible may be accepted, (the one's you want people to believe.)
You're just concerned that people think that the bible is inerrant.
I still say you're a total religious fundy fraud. And yes I get it....I say the bible should be destroyed along with all religious books.
Billywheaton ironic combination of Billygraham and Wheaton College. Im a physician who practices in the rural south. My real identity and even minimal notoriety would be more then I want to deal with right now. Billy
Good then. You are 83 and we agree on the basics. You are testimony to the fact that it is possible to live at least 13 more years than I have, and still be able to make clear and concise statements of fact ( You said: "One point I would like to make is that science is not a religion. It is not a system of belief but a system of inquiry. It does not claim to be infallible but seeks continuously to validate its conclusions and reserves the right to be proven absolutely wrong without censure")
If I were shown one piece of verifiable evidence that the Jesus story was true, or any of the magical things in the bible, such as heaven, hell, Satan, angels, miracles, I would, along with you and every agnostic, be running to get in line for paradise.
As far as being our brothers keeper. We were created with an instinct to survive and reproduce at all costs. I suppose that if the survival of our species were at stake there might be a case made for self sacrifice, but that would have to be a personal choice. The shamans, priests and popes don't have a right to make those decisions for us.
Dan